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Tesla Hit With Another Lawsuit, This Time Alleging Anti-LGBT Harassment (theverge.com)
Earlier this week, Tesla was hit with a lawsuit for racial harassment in its factories. Now, a newer lawsuit has been filed against the company alleging anti-LGBT harassment. An anonymous reader shares a report from The Verge: A former employee at Tesla's Fremont factory filed a wrongful termination lawsuit against the electric carmaker, alleging he was fired in retaliation after seeking protection from anti-gay harassment, The Guardian reported today. The defendant, an assembly line worker named Jorge Ferro, claims he was taunted for being gay and threatened with violence. "Watch your back," one supervisor told him after mocking his "gay tight" clothing, the paper said. After complaining to an HR representative, Ferro was repeatedly moved to different assembly lines, but the harassment didn't stop. Ultimately, HR told him there was "no place for handicapped people at Tesla" after noticing an old scar on his wrist, according to The Guardian. He was sent home, and eventually terminated. In a strongly worded statement to the paper, Tesla denied the allegations and defended itself against the charges. "There is no company on earth with a better track record than Tesla," a spokesperson said.
Another lawsuit generated by the unions who hate all successful businesses that don't pony up the cash.
Bazinga!
If the company HR was stupid enough to fire him because he was "handicapped", that's a different lawsuit entirely.
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Assembly line workers at automotive factories aren't much like Slashdot readers. So why highlight this news story to Slashdot readers?
How all these lawsuits come out immediately after they fired a bunch of people....
So, the assertion here is that the HR department of _tesla_ told him that there was no room for disabled people at the company. If you're going to lie, try and make it plausible.
no place for handicapped people is not just a law suit that is a labor law issue as well.
"scar on his wrist"
gay men get some kind of surgery to be limp-wristed
When told "Watch your back", he should have looked at the guy and said "How did you know that's the way I like it?".
Let everyone think the supervisor is gay too.
Elon Musk sets off my Gaydar, some of his "Girlfriends" have been beards for other guys already.
He said LIE BIG and the Nazis were unarguably very successful at lying.
Funny how Tesla has been attacked for trying to set up dealerships. Now they have all sorts of rogue employees filing lawsuits loud and publicly.
Not fishy at all. Nope.
On the one hand, if these allegations are true, heads should damn roll.
On the other, Tesla is a great target for a he-said-he-said lawsuit. High profile, lots of cash, great timing right before the make-or-break moment where they have to make good on their affordable cars before GM and the other old guys power into the market.
Tesla's got to be a pressure-cooker company right now to get that production up. But if floor management is creating problems like this, there's a huge incentive to for senior management to give a beat-down to the floor managers. No workers, no Tesla 3's, no Tesla... and there goes Elon Musk puttering around dog-faced in a Bolt.
Who the fuck to believe. To my knowledge, these Tesla things are not sticking like the way they stuck on Uber. But who the fuck knows... news and lawsuits are full of bullshit these days, it's not easy to know truth from some Russian kid with a smartphone masquerading as a Texan. All that's reliably true is Tesla has money, and any cheap-suit lawyer would see an opportunity to make a quick settlement out of them, rather than risk more bad press and production delays as they try like mad to make their delivery date.
Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
This is NOT something ANY HR person in the COUNTRY would say. And if they did, those fuckers need to burn in the fiery pits while having the company president publicly kick them in the ass repeatedly.
These fucking stories just hitting right as Tesla is offering a lower cost car seems very god damn suspect. And all of them are around SJW trigger keywords. The type of shit where it doesn't matter whether there's any truth behind them. The public (morons) will lap it up and turn rabid at each announcement.
It's entirely possible I'm wrong, but it just seems really, ridiculously suspect that all this supposed harassment has been happening all this time and just NOW it's coming out.
And if he wins then any handicapped person who had applied for a job and was turned down should sue for discrimination.
Granted these allegations may not be true or entirely honest; that is for the courts to decide. However, if they are true and Musk's business plan did not in fact include fair treatment of employees, unless he tuns a business taht doesn't need employees, then he isn't much of a business leader at all is he? Visionary perhaps, but business hack.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I don't think you quite understand what the word 'liberal' means. Maybe you should consult a dictionary.
try and make it plausible
But you haven't told us what to try.
The Guardian (why not just link to the source, instead of an article about the article?) elaborates:
The harassment didnâ(TM)t stop after he reported it to a manager, and days after he made a second complaint, Ferro was punished, according to his account. An HR representative took away Ferroâ(TM)s badge, claiming that he had an âoeinjuryâ that prevented him from working and saying thereâ(TM)s âoeno place for handicapped people at Teslaâ, he alleged.
If that it true then there should be some hard evidence, i.e. documentation of the reason he was fired. Tesla could be in real trouble if it turns out to be true.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Remember, always remember that HR is NOT there to protect employees. HR where you work is NOT your friend, even if they say they are. They are not looking out for your interests, DON'T go to them unless you cannot help it.
The primary purpose of an HR person is to keep the company from being successfully sued. Secondary to that is to keep the company from being sued. After that comes keeping employees safe and happy..
If some HR person actually told a handicapped person this, they failed in their primary and secondary tasks and need to be shown the door, but somehow, I doubt that there is any independent evidence that this was said. I've not had too much experience with HR folks for obvious reasons, but I've never met one this stupid.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
I'm offended by this post
Liberals need to consult it too
I don't think they're going to be moved by your exposition of facts, unfortunately. These types never are.
There is no XUL, only WebExtensions...
Stop being pedantic. Everyone else understands what they were saying.
I've met some pretty stupid (smart?) HR folks when it comes to discrimination. When it comes to outright insulting you and making you feel insecure in your job, they'll say the most asinine things -- things that would get anyone else fired -- as long as there are no witnesses. I learned a long time ago to record any conversations I have with HR.
That said, even I'm having trouble believing this.
It's entirely possible I'm wrong, but it just seems really, ridiculously suspect that all this supposed harassment has been happening all this time and just NOW it's coming out.
You need to educate yourself in logics. There are many reasons why many victims don't want to come out. You have to understand that most people will take time to think (and try reasoning) whether or they want to be a whistle blower; especially when an incident directly involves themselves. An obvious reason is the future. If a person comes out, then what would be the future career for the person? Often times, a whistle blower would NOT be hired again from any companies because those companies are afraid of the similar situation.
Now if you are the person, is in your 30s, and have a family, what do you think would happen if you are all of the sudden unemployed and has a difficult time to get a new job? Think about it before spouting this kind of stupid statement. Things aren't straight forward when there are many other factors involved.
Yep. And if anyone doubts it, just ask your local HR person -- they will explain that they aren't there for you; that they are there for management and the company.
Do yourself a favor and record any conversation you have with HR. They do tend to get high and mighty when it's just you and them in the room. I've had one or two encounters with HR where I wish I had evidence of what was said.
Any person with a scar.
Wholeheartedly agree on that, found that out the hard way. HR is there to protect the company, not the employees.
Agree again, but I get the feeling that a company like Tesla would not be hiring moron HR managers, which makes you wonder how much of this is actually true.
I was working for a company and one of the developers was having a hard time at home, marriage issues, new born keeping him up at night, money problems etc. and his performance was slipping at work (getting to work late, tired, leaving early the usual kinda stuff in that situation) and one of the managers decided to fire him. HR said there were no grounds for a dismissal, a disciplinary perhaps, but not dismissal. But he insisted, so HR fired him. He took them to labor court and won the case. So sometimes it might seem like it's HR being the douche, but actually it's upper management forcing them.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
Indeed. I think this is going to turn out to be a merit-less lawsuit once all the facts are heard. We'll see.
Sounds to me like this might be the unions stirring shit, or possibly the competition. Either way, systematically going around to everyone who's been dismissed in the latest round of business-normal firings and seeing if there's any possible labor complaint that can be made. "Oh you're gay? Claim that you were harassed and then fired on a technicality. You're black? Harassment and trumped-up dismissal. Female? Well obviously there's a gender discrimination suit waiting to happen."
It could be coincidental, or it could be that Tesla actually used their latest round of firing nonproductive workers to get rid of 'undesirables'. But the smart money bets on hostile action here. Always follow the money.
One problem a rapidly-growing company has is hiring large numbers of people without being able to adequately weed out incompetents, problem-makers, and assholes. It seems here that both the HR person and the ex-employee should never have been hired.
Consider yourself in the position of the ex-employee. If you're told your clothing is unsuitable to the workplace, do you wear different clothes or continue wearing objectionable clothing? If you have an ugly scar on your wrist do you wear a long-sleeved shirt to hide it or do you push it in people's faces? Undoubtedly this guy was complaining all the time, making other people unhappy with their jobs. Would you do that? If you're fired for cause, is your first consideration finding a new job or finding a lawyer and a publicist?
A curse on both their houses.
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A family? Read the summary.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
One of the biggest management embarrassments I've ever been exposed to was when a previous employer hired an EVP for HR. After a couple of weeks on the job and some exposure to some extensive, dodgy personnel management decisions, the new EVP sent out a memo to all department heads requesting info on several categories of bad behaviors common at our company, noting that they put the company at risk, created ill will among employees and needed to be changed.
About a day after that memo, the new EVP resigned. From a pure resume perspective, he had way more serious management background than our senior management (most of whom had been at this particular company for years, and only in this industry) and I think existing management felt chastised that someone would call them out for bad behavior.
Because the memo had been sent out, lots of people saw it and it was generally understood the new EVP had said "fuck you, I'm not doing this" when he was called out for reasonably doing his job. It was also understood he got a BIG severance for basically quitting his job 2 weeks in.
The HR forgot to include in their workplace manual the chapter "How to react and deal with it when your colleague's ass is so hot you can't focus on your responsibilities."
"If that it true then there should be some hard evidence, i.e. documentation of the reason he was fired."
The whole purpose of HR is to lie and act as a cover-up entity for corporations. Good luck finding hard evidence there unless the HR people are just seriously incompetent.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Good, now grab y our ankles and spell RUN.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
It's DeLorean 2.0
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
A family? Read the summary.
That's just an obvious example that there are many factors involved. Sorry for confusion. If you want me to relate to TFA, then read below because it is an allegation. Still, a whistle blower WILL have a hard time getting a new job especially in the same industry.
Ferro, 35, began as an assembly line production worker in April 2016 at the Tesla manufacturing plant in Fremont, California. Soon after he started, a supervisor who trained him, Jamar Taylor, began harassing him and mocking his sexuality, according to a lawsuit. Taylor allegedly told Ferro his clothes were “too tight – gay tight”, repeatedly taunted him about his outfits and later said he was not “welcome” because he is gay. Taylor also “went on to suggest that [Ferro] had a lot of enemies because ‘everyone suspects that [he is] gay’”, the suit said.
Ferro became fearful when the taunts escalated to threats of violence, including “be careful” and a warning that “something might happen to his car”, according to the complaint. Ferro told plant manager Dave Rebagliati that he was gay and was facing harassment, and HR later removed Taylor from Ferro’s assembly line, the suit said.
The harassment didn’t stop, he said. Taylor allegedly began outing Ferro to other co-workers and continued to approach Ferro in the factory, at one point saying a new employee should not learn anything from “someone like” Ferro.
After his second complaint to Rebagliati, on 2 August 2016, the manager decided to transfer Ferro to another assembly line row, according to the complaint.
...
While training for his new job, Rebagliati noticed a scar on Ferro’s wrist from an injury 16 years ago, and although Ferro said it had no effect on his job, the manager sent him home without pay, saying he needed a doctor’s note before returning to work, the complaint alleged. An HR official who took away his badge said he was “handicapped” and that no accommodations could be made, and three days later, before Ferro could have a doctor’s appointment, he was officially terminated, according to the suit.
A doctor later confirmed that he was able to perform his duties. Regardless, it was illegal for Tesla to fire Ferro for a perceived disability, according to Dolan. “This was just a BS reason to kick him out of the workplace.”
This is NOT something ANY HR person in the COUNTRY would say. And if they did, those fuckers need to burn in the fiery pits while having the company president publicly kick them in the ass repeatedly.
These fucking stories just hitting right as Tesla is offering a lower cost car seems very god damn suspect.
Get mad all you want, but this type of allegation happens to every large company. You just typically don't hear about it because the media could care less or the claimants don't see that publicity would help their case. But when it is Tesla, the media will be all over it and the claimants will try to use that to their advantage. Tesla's biggest problem is their place in the media spotlight, a place Musk seems to want them to be in.
Speaking as the spouse of an employment lawyer, public companies are hit by discrimination lawsuits all the time. The primary reason is that discrimination is the only cause of action most employees have if they feel they've been unjustly terminated. Even if they are really upset because they thought their boss unfairly evaluated their work, they may allege discrimination because they can't sue over anything else.
In other words, I wouldn't make too much of this. People are only paying attention because it's Tesla.
None of the above is to say that discrimination or harassment can't be a serious problem, and that the suits are never meritorious- just that the mere fact of the suit occurring doesn't mean much.
You know, it's companies like Tesla and people like Musk that are great at muddling the left-right division.
Develops electric cars! .... but leading the fight against UAW. .... but nonetheless willingly signed up for it anyway. .... but also is a billionaire entrepreneur. .... but also triumphing over government programmes (NASA) with the power of private enterprise. .... but fires employees at the drop of a hat if he thinks they're underperforming, because there's always more lined up to take their place.
Left Trump's business council!
Helping rebuild power infrastructure in Puerto Rico!
Smashing up UAW's monopoly position in rocketry!
Extreme scaleup of battery production to support mass deployment of renewables on the grid!
Can someone remind me which side is supposed to love him and which side is supposed to hate him? ;)
I'll BUILD someone to replace you. Some kind of gamma-powered monster, with a heart as black as coal!
For me, it was at least plausible until:
I don't even.... huh? How does that even make sense? It might make some sense if the person had been repeatedly marked down for low productivity in activities involving their hands, and then some manager decided that the person just couldn't do the job and credited the scar as being associated for the reason why. But just out of the blue, with no indication that the person is failing to do some activity with their hands? I can't even begin to picture that. It's like the plaintiff neglected to mention a long history of bad productivity scores and was hoping that we wouldn't ask about that part.
I'll BUILD someone to replace you. Some kind of gamma-powered monster, with a heart as black as coal!
Of who / what is motivating this flurry of lawsuits. Almost like a certain union is doing a smear campaign to weaken Tesla.
While it is believable that Tesla has been extremely stoopid, it really ain't. They have to walk so many fine lines w/ all the taxpayer subsidies. So it is more likely a smear campaign than Tesla being Uber stoopid.
TL/DR;
ADA is shit scary @ HR / Mid/ Upper lvl management. Works better than garlic & sunlight.
DeLoean couldn't find customers at the time. They'd already become bankrupt before Back To The Future came out.
Tesla on the other hand has an order book stretching out years in advance.
So no, not the same at all.
If that it true then there should be some hard evidence, i.e. documentation of the reason he was fired. Tesla could be in real trouble if it turns out to be true.
Not necessarily. The guy was working on assembly lines.
i.e.: a physical job, that requires physical fitness.
Tesla could actually get into real trouble in the case that the guy was improperly hired and then hurt himself due to doing a physical job for which he was unfit.
If the guy did lie back when he was hired (e.g.: provided a bogus medical certificate) to hide his disability, and it happened to only be discovered now, Tesla would be in their right to fire him.
Again keep in mind that we're not speaking about a desk job, were rejecting somebody on ground of being disabled would be discrimination.
We're speaking about a physical job, that requires a certain degree of physical fitness and the guys could have been lying and providing forget medical documents.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
> Where liberals support presidents that sexually abuse interns.
I assume you mean Clinton. Which is silly, because even as a (relatively) staunch Republican, I'm pretty sure he didn't have to do much beyond say "ok, but Hill can never know about this" while Monica wrapped her lips around his weiner like a hungry bitch in heat. ("staunch" != "jesus freak in permanent state of moral panic over sex"). If fire-n-brimstone hell exists, the worthiest candidates for residency there are Ken Starr & Rush Limbaugh.
Elon come on , what are you doing there ....
Of course, emotional scars DO count.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
we can talkbout factshur alldurrlong ifyou giturass outurface, if weiman wants2be apoliceofficer thensandbag thatcripple uptofullsize. handicapps iswhat made robocop uknow?
Wait, wait... the democrats are a LIBERAL party in your opinion?
Dude, never comes to Europe. Our parties would only confuse you.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
They aren't built to do mass market vehicles. They should just license the technology or outsource the manufacturing to somebody else and stick to the high end part of the business.
It was no coincidence that the same week Taser went public, they were hit with a lawsuit over accidental deaths.
Follow the money to frauds and lawyers and politicians. Someone wants money.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Yeah, no. I'm a gay man, but this has my bullshit detector going off. There's no large company in the country that would risk those kinds of statements or actions in this day and age. It's asinine.
This guy sounds like a perpetually offended asshole who got fired for being toxic. I know lots of combative, hyperbolic, dramatic gay dudes. Some are friends, but working with them would be hell.
Or, you know, the guy just made shit up. I know it's hard to believe some people lie for money... You have no evidence to draw any conclusion.
It seems awfully suspicious that when unions are trying to unionize Tesla, all of a sudden there's a bunch of barely credible lawsuits happening...
Man, I didn't know that the United Auto Workers were so good at rocketry. (I suspect you mean USA)
Relax, Mohammed. He didn't say Fascist.
Aint no party like a eurotrash party cause a eurotrash party DON'T STOP!
Do you hear that high pitched whine? That's Tesla spinning in his grave. Because he may very well have been gay himself. According to the Bernard Carlson book on Tesla, he did have a romantic relationship with another man.
Most Respectfully Yours Mark Allyn Bellingham, Washington
Democrats are more liberal than Republicans and as there are only two parties because every issue is black and white, they are the definition liberal.
This is a perfect example of the "no true HR person" fallacy.
After my 6th marriage, I began to think the problem might be me.
-poorly quoted from some rock star or another
Seriously, they moved me from line to line and i kept getting bullied. Is the whole company bigoted? They've hired 10,000 people from around Fremont. Is the population of Fremont this bigoted? I don't see the employees of most places treating an individual like this. I think it is more likely the guy was an asshat troublemaker.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
The DeLorean would have sold a lot better if John had included a kilo of coke with each one.
See, they line up to support people who sexually abused 26 women (Bill Clinton's current count).
While telling you they stand up for women, just as long as those women don't tell people they were molested by DNC leaders.
What a joke the DNC and liberals have become. You want to tell me how being a KKK member isn't that bad as another liberal told me the other day?
Just too many of these issues are popping up with Musk lately. I think people are actively throwing wrenches into all of his operations. More specifically auto makers. This is all very dangerous. A very likely outcome is Musk moves all his operations outside the USA.
But ponder this. Could not this worker simply be a bad apple that just happens to be gay?
Could it be... United Arab World? :)
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
And sometimes it is HR...
At a company ages ago, my boss desperately wanted to hire someone for IT network security who in the past had rather famously gotten in some legal hot water about being in possession of some AT&T Unix code.
He fought HR over that for weeks. The HR drone finally said "You can keep fighting this, and you will probably win in the end. However, we can drag this process out for at least a year, maybe two. And we absolutely will drag it out for as long as we possibly can. Your call."
So, my boss had to give up on hiring the guy. Too bad; he'd have been a great fit for the position.
If anything, your parties are white and beige.
Or black and anthracite, whichever you prefer.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
YEP! Every time I even see the acronym LBGT I roll my fucking eyes, fuck those wierdo's and their need to be in the spotlight because they're offended constantly anyhow.
The harassment didnâ...
Article writer Scottish.
I would think it would just be called "gay harassment" and anti-gay harassment sounds more like harassment towards the biggot.
Úff, wrote UAW twice. The second was supposed to be ULA :
I'll BUILD someone to replace you. Some kind of gamma-powered monster, with a heart as black as coal!
That implies that they are more similar than different. There cannot be any similarities.
There are only two parties. Mine, which is true and good and flawless, and the other one, which is evil and stupid in everything.
I'd be genuinely shocked if you couldn't find some examples of LGBTQ and racial harassment at Tesla, especially if they didn't already have strong controls in place to deal with it. It just sorta comes with the territory. Heck, in small non-corporate shops where there's no women (think small help desks) the stuff that goes on would get you fired in any major corporation on the planet.
/. realize. Even if you're not a snowflake you should still be wary of flame throwers.
Thing is, some of this stuff is probably the sort of thing you can laugh off if you're not LGBTQ. But imagine you spent your entire childhood getting the shit kicked out of you because you were a little on the effeminate side or got kicked out by your parents because you're a bit too 'tom boyish'. Or heck, if you're black and come from the South jokes about lynching aren't just in poor taste they're terrifying because, well, you might have actually feared being lynched enough not to know when somebody's joking.
What I'm saying is America is a _hell_ of a lot more fucked up than most of us on
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
You will notice, of all the replies the only one that addressed my points was someone saying Clinton sexually abusing an intern is ok. Which was basically my point.
What other party fought a war to keep blacks in slavery, attempted to keep women from voting, attempted to keep blacks from getting equal rights, kept a KKK leader as a top senator for 60 years? All in addition to all the things I originally listed.
Its not both are equally bad, its not even close. The DNC hates the average American citizen, and always has. They just keep getting more blatent because they have a bunch of complete idiots defending them for their racism, abuse of women, and corruption.
Sad
I think we need to sue the LGBT groups for discrimination against STRAIGHT people!
Having to defend against this kind of crap when you use people to make the product is the number one reason there will be far fewer people making the next generation product. Engineers like to introduce greater control and solve problems. Elon will solve this like an engineer. Eliminate the weak point.
Thanks for outing yourself as a stupid homophobe, but biologically, being LGBTQ is not particularly weird. I imagine your perception of such persons as being perpetually offended is strongly linked to your offensive attitude towards them. Are you perhaps able to fuck off in some permanent sense?
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
Where liberals support companies that discriminate based on sex, LGBT status, and disability.
Fake news, but you *are* a bigot and enjoy legislating your morality, so do fuck off.
Where liberals support Hollywood that sexually abuses women by the 100s (or 1000s).
Right, it's all the conservatives that are up in arms about that issue.
Where liberals support presidents that sexually abuse interns.
This argument has been named "Grab 'em by the Clinton"
Where liberals support the use the IRS to target political opponents.
Or maybe that only happened if you've been repeatedly lied to by Fox News.
Where liberals support spying on opposing campaigns during an election.
Nothing about this is true.
Where liberals support rigging national election primaries.
Nothing about this is true.
Where liberals support a candidate that took $140 million in bribes from Russia while Secretary Of State.
No part of this is true.
Where liberals support a candidate that destroys subpoenaed evidence because it might have wrecked her chance of winning.
Emails were deleted, but no legal challenge has appeared despite Republicans controlling all branches of government and Trump's campaign promises.
I'm not sure if you're a gullible fuckwit or a damnable liar. Why don't you go destroy some other democracy.
It's all a big PR lie. But this one is not even plausible. I worked in Cali for 11 years. At every company I've ever seen in that state, GayBLT people are treated with *favoritism*.
I call bullshit on the whole thing.
Been there, worked that. Try again when you've left the basement and worked for a large corporate organization.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
What kind of hell is Tesla when a guy can't work the production line in his mesh tank top and yoga pants???
Completely unacceptable, Xir!!