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Human Mini-Brains Growing Inside Rat Bodies Are Starting To Integrate (inverse.com)
At the annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience starting November 11 in Washington D.C., two teams of scientists plan to present previously unpublished research on the unexpected interaction between human mini-brains and their rat and mouse hosts. "In the new papers, according to STAT, scientists will report that the organoids survived for extended periods of time -- two months in one case -- and even connected to lab animals' circulatory and nervous systems, transferring blood and nerve signals between the host animal and the implanted human cells," reports Inverse. "This is an unprecedented advancement for mini-brain research." From the report: That mini-brains can even be grown in the lab is a huge advancement in the first place, as they have many of the same characteristics as living human brains that are in the early stages of development. Though they're not "alive" in the same sense that you and I are, they grow and are organized into different layers like our brains are. They even react in similar ways to stimuli like psychedelic drugs. Organoids are poised to revolutionize research on the human brain since scientists can perform tests on them that would be unethical to attempt on living humans. STAT also reports that a third lab, in addition to the two presenting at the Society for Neuroscience meeting, has successfully connected human brain organoids to blood vessels. This attempt veered into such challenging ethical territory, though, that the lab reportedly paused its efforts.
If any need brains, they do!
If you grew a brain twice as large as a persons brain would it be twice as intelligent?
Ethical is informing someone of the risks, not misrepresent anything for the purpose of obtaining consent.
Moral is can't do it at all because of some taboo.
Mini brains in mice are a clever workaround. As long as we can pretrnd its like growing vegetables, its ok.
Scientists should be careful to ensure they can't communicate meaningfully with these minibrains, because the instant one of those things signals that it's hurting or wants the pain to stop, the ethics and morals will apply again and we will be having strange discussions about whether those mini brains come with souls or not.
If any need brains, they do!
I could have sworn there were laws against this kind of experimentation, but I guess in the face of the threat of being "left behind" all that stuff is out the window and anything goes now?
So I'm allowed to grow a giant human brain in a jar now if I like? It's ok apparently because 'they're not "alive" in the same sense that you and I are'.
http://data.whicdn.com/images/...
You are welcome on my lawn.
This is ungodly.
And that's why I like it.
When can we expect to see the details on Hackaday?
Pinky: Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?
Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world!
If it sounds like the intro to a horror movie / game, maybe you should think twice about proceeding....
I'm still not worried about an imminent invasion of rat multiborgs.
Welcome our new hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional overlords.
Some days I get the sinking feeling Orwell was an optimist.
So scientists create brains in rats and then give them drugs?
Wtf kind of science are we doing nowdays?
Politicians can finally achieve the body type that best suits them!
Pickle Rickkkkkk !!!!!
What do you think live cells are going to do squished-up next to eachother? Give Billary blojobs ? Random mates grow lusty rapes ... kinda like the human nicotine receptors ... whatever sticks pricks and near progressive azzwholes every prick has a stick ! No big deal when you lay back, toggle out a few induced dipoles and enjoy the twitch.
Life is a gradient!
Something can be just a bit alive!
These brains certainly aren’t dead, now are they?
Single atoms are less alive than chemical compounds.
Normal chemical compounds are less alive than prions, but more alive than single atoms.
Prions are less alive than complex proteins, but more alive than normal chemical compounds.
Complex proteins are less alive than viruses, but more alive than complex simple prions.
Viruses are less alive than bacteria, but more alive than complex proteins.
Bacteria are less alive than something multi-cellular, but more alive than viruses.
Something multi-cellular is less alive than something with a nervous system, but more alive than bacteria.
Something with a nervous system is less alive than something with a full brain, but more alive than something multi-cellular.
Something with a brain is less alive than somebody actually thinking for himself, but more alive than something with just a nervous system.
And an individual is more alive than a mere passive-thinker.
Those mini-brains may still be smarter than your “average Joe”. :P
lolol So now we know how Brain was created. :)
Please tell me one of the rats was named Nicodemus.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
IQ is a bad measurement of intelligence, because it is designed for psychopaths. It completely ignores the skills that played a key role in human success: Social behavior, empathy, etc.
So ... funny, how it's so popular with the psychopaths like you, that want to dominate US culture. Which can only fail in the long run, as teamwork always tr... what's the word again? ... t... trrr... *distorts his face in pain*
But you clearly don't even have a high IQ... considering how you still believe that the “Democrats” and "Republicans" are different groups.
#MiniBrainLivesMatter
To one day direct them down a spine and into some new prosthetic legs.
Though they're not "alive" in the same sense that you and I are, they grow and are organized into different layers like our brains are. They even react in similar ways to stimuli like psychedelic drugs.
Who's to say what they experience or feel? That they're not alive? Seems to me they're making them as close to a live brain as possible, so...
This is horrifying. How could you go home and sleep at night after working on something like this?
Growing extra organs in or on animals is already pretty grotesque, but at least that has obvious and practical applications. But this? This is some shit, man...
Any brain can integrate; wake me up when they can find derivatives.
Why don't you guys have friends or journals?
What have schizophrenic delusional concepts to do with any of this?
The discussion is about whether anyone seriously think it's OK to hurt something that tells us it hurts and wants it to stop.
And the answer is no, btw. Unless you're in a Nazi concentration camp and asking one of the doctors there.
The evil of slavery that US society was pleased to accept was bad enough. But to justify slavery in the 'age of science', American 'scientists' experimented on living slaves in the first half of the 19th Century at major universities. Their goal- to 'proof' 'black' Humans were biologically inferior to 'white' Humans. This work became the pseudo-science of 'race' that even today the US Supreme Court states can be used to justify 'positive discrimination' based on 'race'.
But along side the FAKE NEWS of 'race' was Eugenics- the American gift that never stops giving. The Japanese and Germans slaughtered millions after proudly adopting this American doctrine. Bill Gates' family wealth, that allowed him to start Microsoft, came from eugenics- which is why even today Gates is an advocate for so many eugenic initiatives.
This 'Human brain in rats' obscenity is just more of the same. The evil of the USA is why America is such a staunch supporter of the two most depraved 'religious' nations in Human History- Israel and Saudi Arabia. The same two nations about to exterminate life in Lebanon, and create the circumstances that allow Trump to nuke Iran.
they are smart enough. I'm glad they destroy these experiments.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Is that you?
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Louis CK took his penis out and started masturbating furiously.
Slow news day, I guess.
Interesting times ahead, probably too many scientist on the loose on this planet for its own good
shaal we? OK! Area. It is the Contaminated while she had no fear notwithstanding, Don't be afraid
"Human Mini-Brains Growing Inside Rat Bodies Are Starting To Integrate"
Big deal. So they've invented vat-grown lawyers.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Human Mini-Brains Growing Inside Rat Bodies Are Starting To Integrate
Every end has half a stick.
I want a spare brain! That would be great, like having SMP in my head! I guess it wouldn't really fit in my head though. I'd have to put it somewhere else. Like maybe on top of my head, under a glass dome like Mojo Jojo.
I remember exactly this being one of those things that were "never going to happen" as said by techno-optimists to people they were accusing of engaging in slippery slope thinking.
I do love how the author comes up with a lovely name like "mini brains" for something that can be compared to Frankenstein.
Your own "morality" would lead to NO such experiment and no alternative to test on nervous system. because let us face it, the alternative is to test on human, higher cephalic order animals similar to human or no test at all. You are the same type of people which were horrified by ears being grown on rat.... Well yuppeee doo you are the same backward type of people which would hurt all medicine because they can't stand the "sacro saint whatever". Your comparison to nazi (and therefore mengele) show your end game. The reality is that those experiment have NO ethical implication, the amount of nervous tissue barely being similar in size than an insect brain. The moment you CITED nazi to compare this experiment was the moment which showed your true color.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
If you grew a brain twice as large as a persons brain would it be twice as intelligent?
Very serious answer :
size plays some role, but only in relation of other metrics.
- You need to compare the ratio between the size of the brain and the overall size of the body that said brain needs to control.
The more body you need to control, the more primary motor and sensory zone you need inside the brain to control it.
i.e.: the more you needs cells in the brain whose primary role is to be connected to part of the body.
A human has a brain of around a kilogram. An elephant's is a bit under 5kg, a whale is a bit 8 kg.
That doesn't mean that whales laugh at our "inability to come with a good theory of everything and struggle with string theory instead". It's just that whales have a lot more "whale" to move around and thus need the corresponding brain parts to control it.
- You need to compare the amount of neurons (the actual brain cells doing the work) to the amount of other cells (the support cells that help the whole thing work out). (It's an approximation but you got the thing).
Part of the reason why dolphins aren't winning Nobel prizes yet (apart from obvious specie-ism) is also because they have brain better adapted to their harsh environment (cold seas). Part of their brain size isn't due to neurons working to make them intelligent, but to all the other support cells making sure that the brain keeps working without any problem under circumstances where a human would have been frozen.
- You need to have a look at the brain surface. The more intelligent species (great apes, cetaceans, etc.) have found way to cram more brain power in tighter volumes by wrinkling and crumbling the surface : we tend to have deeper sulci.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Apparently the current American president is the first succesful example of implanting a mini-brain in a rat.
-- Make America hate again!
Apparently Trump's victory, after being told that Killary was a "sure thing", broke you people so severely that you and all your buddies lost even a feigned semblance of a mind.
So, out of compassion, every Dumbocrat has been pushed to the head of the list.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Despite evoking horror movie flashbacks, who does it hurt and what the knowledge would be useful.
The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!
I guess I need to hurry and buy some flowers wile I stil kan kount.
WYSIWIG, but what you see might not be what you need
The horror movie script just writes itself, doesn't it?
Comforting: one lab paused it's efforts because someone somewhere raised ethical challenges. Excellent as it indicates someone is giving some thought to what is going on.
Discomforting: these things aren't 'alive' in the same sense as you and I so they can be experimented upon in ways that would be deemed unethical. Chilling that someone somewhere sees this as a loophole.
One of the most frightening developments to appear in /. in a while.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
Sounds very much like The Secret of NIMH
They are integrating human brains in rats, but we should be scared of AI?
I don't think we need to really worry until they start to differentiate. Then they will be on to PDEs, vector analysis, and so on. While people are wringing their hands over Artificial Intelligence, the ratbrains will escape the lab, organize an army of nuclear-surviving cockroaches, and take over the planet. Unless the dolphins achieve spaceflight when nobody's looking.
People find this "icky" because we're growing neurons in a glass, but they have no problem with liver cells or muscle cells. Why, exactly?
A clump of neurons is not sentient, nor is it going to be sentient. Not even if it develops in layers. Without external influence and control, it is going to be basically unstructured. It's just a bunch of cells.
Maybe, someday, scientists will be able to provide the stimuli necessary to make a clump of neurons into something more. That day is not yet, and these clumps aren't even close to any sort of ethical boundary.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
Stem cells are the problem!
However, there is no denying there is *some* moral/ethical issue at play here, whether one likes it or not. I note you like C.Sagan's works too, so I'll go easy and not evoke the Nazis, but...
At some point, you do have ethical issues. You bring up alternatives like 'higher cephalic animals', but surely you're aware there already is an ethical/moral issue there as well? One can say: it's too small to be of any importance. But how small is too small? When does it become an issue? I'd like to note that there are handicapped people with severe (genetic) braindistortions - for instance, lacking the higher brains. They can never get the higher functions of a normal brain, and are bound to live a life that is in essence not much more than of a animal - less than of an ape, in fact.
So... is it now ok to experiment on such handicapped people? After all, they don't have most of the brainparts we have (theyre actually missing), and lack the capacity to think.
No bigger than an insect-brain, you say... Is that an objective measurement from when it does or doesn't become an ethical issue? What about if it was as big as a walnut? As big as the brain of a raven, one of the smartest birds around? As big as an orange? As big as the part that is left to the severally brain-handicapped people I spoke off?
Surely, you must see that there is not a defining border or limit to it. So, what it comes down to, is you - subjectively - finding no issue with it, because of it's size and lack of fully functional abilities like our brain. Another might find it's still no issue if it's as big as an orange. Or as big as a newborns'. Or as big as a toddlers'. Etc. and some might feel there is already an ethical issue when it's as big as an insects'.
Point is, if you can't set objective criteria for when it is and isn't (or shouldn't) be considered an ethical issue, you can't fault anyone for finding an issue with it - not even on logical arguments. Because your own defining criteria isn't inherently logical (being of a given, arbitrary size), unless one wants to argue that there is no issue with it until it has the size of a fully grown adult. But I think you'd left most people behind with that moral stance, by then.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you that testing this is a good or bad thing. I'm just acknowledging some people might have moral issues with it, and they might be valid. There is actual reason why one might see this being a moral/ethical issue; since your or mine (or doctor Mengele's ;-p) criteria for what constitutes a moral/ethical dilemma isn't the same. Unless you come up with clearly defined, objective criteria that define when there's a moral/ethical issue and when not, I don't think you can claim another's' ethical dilemma is wrong, per sé. Having a 'certain', arbitrary chosen size isn't a good criterion in this regard.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Not creepy at all.
Requiem for the American Dream
Pickle Rick!
And I find it VERY impressive. Those rats never even got past 5th-grade algebra.
...a beowulf cluster of these!
Seriously, the title is from the dystopianest of dystopias. I am sure it's much mlless sinister than this.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
I turned myself into a pickle Morty!
Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
With the mimi-brains, they are starting to integrate. If they used full-size brains, they be solving differential equations by now.
Dumb move, guys. Dumb move.
What if we use the ability to fuse to connect with each other. Organoid fuse one brain and then to another.
Brain Pinky are you thinking what I'm thinking ? Pinky Yeah, but where are we going to get rubber pants that size ?
Let me be the first to welcome our Organoids Overloads!
Or as someone smarter than me said in 1971, "Meet the new boss, Same as the old boss".
Oh snap, we did get fooled again!
And ants are far smarter than people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Me quoting a movie review a decade ago of "Deep Blue Sea" (spoiler) as reasons colleges need to be careful about how they educate humans (including about morals): http://www.pdfernhout.net/read...
"Some scientists are out in the middle of the ocean, trying to reproduce proteins in shark's brains. These proteins are the cure for Alzheimer's, and one character even gives a half-assed speech about how she's driven by memories of her father's mental illness. Well, to harvest more protein, that scientist makes the shark's brains four times bigger than normal and now the shark's are super-smart and eat all the scientists. Hooray."
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.