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Living In Nuclear Disaster Fallout Zone Would Be No Worse Than Living In London, Research Suggests (bristol.ac.uk)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from University of Bristol, England: New research suggests that few people, if any, should be asked to leave their homes after a big nuclear accident, which is what happened in March 2011 following the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster. Professor Thomas's team used the Judgement or J-value to balance the cost of a safety measure against the increase in life expectancy it achieves. The J-value is a new method pioneered by Professor Thomas that assesses how much should be spent to protect human life and the environment. The researchers found that it was difficult to justify relocating anyone from Fukushima Daiichi, where four and a half years after the accident around 85,000 of the 111,000 people who were moved out by the Japanese government had still not returned. After the world's worst nuclear accident at Chernobyl in 1986, in what was then part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic of the Soviet Union (USSR), the J-value method supported relocation when nine months' or more life expectancy would be lost due to radiation exposure by remaining. Using the J-value method, 31,000 people would have needed to be moved, with the number rising to 72,000 if the whole community was evacuated when five per cent of its residents were calculated to lose nine months of life or more.

Philip Thomas, Professor of Risk Management in the Department of Civil Engineering at the University of Bristol, said: "Mass relocation is expensive and disruptive. But it is in danger of becoming established as the prime policy choice after a big nuclear accident. It should not be. Remediation should be the watchword for the decision maker, not relocation." For comparison, the average Londoner loses four and a half months to air pollution, while the average resident of Manchester lives 3.3 years less than his/her counterpart in Harrow, North London. Meanwhile, boys born in Blackpool lose 8.6 years of life on average compared with those born in London's borough of Kensington and Chelsea.
The results are published in a special issue of Process Safety and Environmental Protection, a journal from the Institution of Chemical Engineers.

278 comments

  1. Premature baby deaths by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Does it account for the spike in sudden infant death syndrome in the areas of Japan after 2011?

    1. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The stress caused by the panic and the relocation makes for a better hypothesis

    2. Re:Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'd rather have a baby in Fukushima than the west side of Baltimore.

    3. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not how it works, dumbass.
      You can't get contaminated with radiation. You get contaminated with shit which is radioactive.

    4. Re:Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad you're a nutless faggot.

    5. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You get contaminated with shit which is radioactive.

      Yet you have no complaints eating out my ass.

    6. Re: Premature baby deaths by slazzy · · Score: 1

      I don't have a thyroid, do i still need to worry about it?

      --
      Website Just Down For Me? Find out
    7. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you really want to live downwind of THIS?

      According to this very article, no you wouldn't, and they should have been relocated.

      So, what was your point again?

    8. Re:Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are so precious!

    9. Re: Premature baby deaths by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Like radioactive cesium. Like radioactive IODINE.

      Neither of these is a big problem with proper preparation and remediation. Cesium behaves biologically like potassium, so if you take potassium supplements your body will flush the cesium out in your pee. Iodine is a micronutrient, and you only need a small amount. So if you take iodine supplements, most of it will be excreted.

      Potassium iodine tablets are readily available since KI can also be used for water sterilization. I have a vial in my home, and in the survival kit in my car. You can buy them at any camping store, or on Amazon for $5.

      Instead of acting helpless and curling up in the fetal position when someone mentions "radiation", you should educate yourself and prepare. KI tablets are a sensible place to start.

    10. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ukrainian isotopes. They are safe. You can come home now.

    11. Re: Premature baby deaths by Evangelical_Molester · · Score: 0

      You alpha-emitting apologists really do deserve some nasty cancers in your life.

    12. Re:Premature baby deaths by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You mean the same as the almost identical rise in the USA a few weeks later, right around the time that Fox and Friends were reporting massive nuclear fallout was hitting the United States from Fukushima? Also the spike was 1.8% above normal SIDS level in Japan.

      I think our species will endure.

    13. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God dammit it's COON AND FRIENDS!

      Captcha: Nobody expects Cartman's right hand.

    14. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mine doesn't work fully, hope you are managing that OK....but if you did have one....

      Thyroid risks are pretty much eliminated within weeks/months after the event as iodine-131 has a very short half life (8 days). During and directly after the initial event, there is a significant risk to infants and the very young. Fortunately screening can detect at eliminate 99%.

      So, you could return to these areas and not have to worry about your thyroid if you had one.

    15. Re: Premature baby deaths by gweihir · · Score: 1

      It is also a good hypothesis that this stress would have been even higher if no relocation had been done.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    16. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The small problem with your +5 informative post is you got your biochem wrong. Iodine water purification tablets( tetraglycine hydroperiodide) are not KI, tetraglycine hydroperiodide is not bioavailable through the human digestive tract. I recall some research though and the iodine found in the tincture might work to provide a blocking dose by painting one's back or abdomen several times a week and not washing.
      To put it simply in the US KI is regulated as a precursor to methamphetamine production like pseudoephadrine and other chemicals.
      The only way to realibly buy is to buy KI or iodate from a pharmacy or a survivalist type place in pill form.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    17. Re: Premature baby deaths by dougdonovan · · Score: 1

      if you dont like the weather...move...quit bitching about it and do something about it.

    18. Re: Premature baby deaths by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Depends how much radiation you are exposed to. Enough particles flying around and some of your own atoms may become a radioactive isotope.

    19. Re:Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad you're a nutless faggot.

      Women don't have nuts, dumbass.

    20. Re: Premature baby deaths by kencurry · · Score: 1

      ... The only way to realibly buy is to buy KI or iodate from a pharmacy or a survivalist type place in pill form. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Iodized salt. You can buy it at the store. So, there's that.

      --
      sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
    21. Re: Premature baby deaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's a lousy hypothesis that no action & familiar environs implies greater stress. Even if progressive thugs beat-up nuked survivors regular they would experience a peaceful smashface.

    22. Re: Premature baby deaths by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It's meant to combat a deficiency in food. For protection against radioactive iodine the idea is to flood your body with the good stuff and crowd out the nasty variety.

      You'd be sick before you could get anywhere near enough.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    23. Re: Premature baby deaths by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      But "Lite Salt" is a good way to flood your body with potassium. Half the sodium is replaced with potassium. If you buy "No Salt" instead, 100% of the sodium is replaced with potassium, but it tastes funny. I use "Lite Salt" and it tastes just like normal NaCl to me. I use it mainly to lower my blood pressure. Resistance to radiation poisoning is just a side benefit.

      "Lite Salt" and "No Salt" are both available at most grocery stores.

    24. Re: Premature baby deaths by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You seem to be unfamiliar with a phenomenon called "fear" and what it does to human beings. That would make you an extreme moron.
      However, I think you are just a troll. That makes you an _evil_ extreme moron.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    25. Re: Premature baby deaths by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Ahh, no, not ever.
      To BECOME a radioisotope requires either neutrons or an ultra energetic proton impacting Nitrogen, neither of which you will get via radio-decay product contamination

    26. Re: Premature baby deaths by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Or gamma rays or alpha particles

      Why are you saying you have to hit Nitrogen? Lots of elements can be induced to a radioactive state. My reply was not specific to Fukushima, but the very generalized statement directly above my reply.

    27. Re: Premature baby deaths by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      You will note the alpha particle 'radiation' is nothing but the electron captured and re-relesed, not transmutation
      I am, however, behind in ultra-high-energy photodisintigration.
      Nitrogen bombardment with protons at 13-24 MeV in the fabled Northern Lights are our source for 14C

  2. War zone by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 1, Troll

    I don't know if anyone noticed, but London was a war zone during Ramadan.

    I'm waiting with interest to see what London is like from May 15 -> June 15 of next year. I predict it will be much worse, and there will have to be enormous outcry from the British people before something gets done.

    Probably a bunch of populist ministers be elected on this very point (over the next year to three years), and eventually a re-formed government will step in with a heavy hand to stop it.

    Interesting times.

    1. Re:War zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Why would they suddenly start caring?
      They didn't care about the betrayal of 1,400 children. Why would they care now?
      http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-eng...

    2. Re:War zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF are you talking about? Watching too much fox "news" show again?

    3. Re:War zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if anyone noticed, but London was a war zone during Ramadan.

      It was a war zone but you're not sure if anyone noticed? That's weird.

    4. Re:War zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, we didn't notice. And we're going to keep on not noticing until Trump is mayor.

      -- the establishment

    5. Re:War zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All part of the plan. Create a problem, then be there to "solve it" when the public demands that you do something. They'll be so desperate to fix the issue, they'll let you do anything. You could take away a good portion of their rights, and they'll be grateful while you do it!

    6. Re:War zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      today you'll learn something about cultures...
      "The report estimates 1,400 children were sexually exploited over 16 years, with one young person telling the report's author that gang rape was a usual part of growing up in Rotherham." http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-eng...

    7. Re:War zone by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      I don't know if anyone noticed, but London was a war zone during Ramadan.

      London was also a war zone before and after Ramadan too. The place is a shit hole at the best of times, and a worse shit hole at the non-best of times.

      Personally, I'd vote for thermonuclear revocation of planning consent. We can do it during Trump's visit, perhaps, and kill two stones with one bird.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  3. But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is living in London worse than living in a nuclear disaster fallout zone?

    Is it that not all nuclear disaster fallout zones are equivalently bad places to live?

    1. Re:But by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      I can't imagine the public transportation in a fallout zone being better than London's. Of course you wouldn't need to commute so much if you could afford to rent closer to your job.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:But by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2

      If you're Chief Mutant and you're not driving around in some sort of pimped out vehicle then you're doing it wrong frankly.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  4. How utterly inhuman by mysidia · · Score: 3, Insightful

    J-value method supported relocation when nine months' or more life expectancy would be lost due to radiation exposure by remaining

    The Life Expectancy is a statistical quantity. Reducing the average life expectancy by 8 months doesn't mean there won't be data outliers, or individuals affected with undue severity, E.G. Individuals whom will die much earlier because of the incident.

    This is the problem with using life expectancy or other statistical summary averages ---- SOME people still die, and nobody wants that person to be themselves or one of their friends or loved ones; that might be 1 death out of 1000, but it STILL MATTERS to that person and to their community.

    1. Re:How utterly inhuman by nasch · · Score: 2

      If there is no standard, then any time there is any kind of potentially toxic accident, you would evacuate everyone in the area "just to be safe". If there is a standard of some kind, then yes it's possible someone will die early due to exposure, no matter what the standard is. Asking the government to keep everyone safe all the time no matter what is not practical and a bad idea.

    2. Re:How utterly inhuman by locater16 · · Score: 1

      Science and maths, ruining people's silly conceptions of themselves for thousands of years.

    3. Re:How utterly inhuman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SOME people still die, and nobody wants that person to be themselves or one of their friends or loved ones; that might be 1 death out of 1000, but it STILL MATTERS to that person and to their community.

      That's what people often say, but in reality their choices and actions frequently don't bear out their stated beliefs. For example, it's now well known that both smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol reduce life expectancy through cancer and in the case of alcohol through drink driving and other accidents of impaired judgement. Consider also the long term effects of unhealthy eating, such as with fried foods, excessive sugar, high saturated fats, etc. All of these things contribute to a reduced life expectancy with very high probabilities and yet people continue to do all of these things. So they may say that the value every minute of potential life when asked, but clearly their life choices don't align with their stated preferences.

      The Life Expectancy is a statistical quantity.

      It's also one that has a long history in the UK because of the life insurance business, which was begun in London in 1706 by William Talbot and Sir Thomas Allen, and later the National Health Service which is the British version of the single payer health care system. The NHS decides which treatments, drugs and procedures it will or will not pay for using a metric they call Quality Adjusted Life Years or QALYs. Basically they decide how much each additional year of life is to be valued for each citizen depending upon their current age, life expectancy and the utility of those additional years if any at expected probability. The end result of these calculations are a dollar value maximum on a treatments, beyond which the government will not pay for additional QALYs or lack thereof. So the British, much more than their American cousins, are well accustomed to the idea of both life expectancy and putting prices on those life expectancy variables.

    4. Re:How utterly inhuman by Kohath · · Score: 2

      Involuntary relocation is also very stressful. That stress also results is earlier deaths for some people.

    5. Re:How utterly inhuman by fafalone · · Score: 2

      Not to mention that cause of death matters. Cancer from radiation exposure isn't exactly the best way to go, and I suspect a lot of the early deaths that bring down the average will be just that (not from acute effects but by increasing the long term risk, like with the 9/11 first responders). I thought for sure my father would face a death from painful cancer after a lifetime of heavy smoking, instead he went painlessly in his sleep from heart failure. My uncle on the other hand... terrible. We definitely need to consider if these will be cancer deaths.

    6. Re:How utterly inhuman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, ALL people still die. It's a question of when, not if.

    7. Re:How utterly inhuman by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 4, Informative

      J-value method supported relocation when nine months' or more life expectancy would be lost due to radiation exposure by remaining

      The Life Expectancy is a statistical quantity. Reducing the average life expectancy by 8 months doesn't mean there won't be data outliers, or individuals affected with undue severity, E.G. Individuals whom will die much earlier because of the incident.

      This is the problem with using life expectancy or other statistical summary averages ---- SOME people still die, and nobody wants that person to be themselves or one of their friends or loved ones; that might be 1 death out of 1000, but it STILL MATTERS to that person and to their community.

      Statistics is the only way the evaluations can be performed. For Fukushima, the UNSCEAR 2013 concluded essentially no statistical loss in life expectancy and no deaths. Since then, studies have shown that actual exposures were lower than used int he report. The methodology in that report is the same as used to estimate Chernobyl health impacts, and studies have shown a much smaller health impact than estimated. So the science is clearly good and conservative.

      Every life matters, but that is not how we evaluate overall safety. We evaluated it in terms of risk. We have statistics on car deaths, and use that to evaluate the risks and also improve safety. Every one of those deaths still matters, of course.

      As for radiation zones, the very low risk should not surprise anybody who has attempted to objectively asses the information available. Of course, if one reads headlines, then they might not get it.

    8. Re:How utterly inhuman by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      ^"Statistics is"... uhgggg. embarrassed.

    9. Re:How utterly inhuman by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      It could be argued that people in the Fukushima zone are at reduced risk of dying or suffering from cancer. Why? Because they are all screened much more carefully and often than the general population. Finding cancer early is the greatest single factor in successful treatment. It increases cure and survival odds tremendously, whereas the increased risk of actually getting cancer from living in these areas is extremely low.

    10. Re:How utterly inhuman by gweihir · · Score: 1

      All those nice diseases that make your life hell but do not kill you, that long-term exposure to radiation causes, are conveniently swept under the carpet.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re:How utterly inhuman by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Also, you quality of life can get much, much worse (and long-term radiation exposure does cause that), without your time of death being affected much.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    12. Re:How utterly inhuman by hey! · · Score: 2

      It's always important to question what kinds of experiences make up the composite average.

      Here's another thing to consider: even if we just go by *average*, what do we do to compensate people for their lost months of life expectancy? If the answer is nothing, it is in effect a wealth transfer from a large number of people to the owners of the power plant.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    13. Re:How utterly inhuman by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      All those nice diseases that make your life hell but do not kill you, that long-term exposure to radiation causes, are conveniently swept under the carpet.

      No, they are not swept under the rug. Please show us exactly which ones you are talking about. The 2013 UNSCEAR report specifically addresses risk of radiation associated illnesses of all know kinds. Science shows these estimates are valid and conservative. You can deny the science, just like a climate change denier, or you can simply throw out statements that are not supported by science if you like, but that is just a contribution to ignorance.

    14. Re:How utterly inhuman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suxx it up ... get used to the pain pad're it's more than human ... everybody has their share. And ignore SJW drooling pretend tears-of-empathy. It's emotocentric ego ... your vote and power and debit-card they crave not your well-being . Bitchly AR was always spot-on; truly nobody else cares about yours !

    15. Re:How utterly inhuman by gweihir · · Score: 1

      "Bla bla bla, I am right until you prove in extreme detail what you just said"

      Are you demented? Or just so full of yourself that you have no effective intelligence left?

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    16. Re:How utterly inhuman by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      "They're not swept under the rug, please point to the rug and show me where on the rug they are!" derp!

      If you understood the issue, you'd agree that lots doesn't get measured because it isn't practicable. If it is well known that lots of the deaths wouldn't be counted, then there is no need to demand evidence.

      Go and look at a list of illnesses associated with radiation exposure, and then consider if there are any for which it would not be detected that radiation was involved. If you can't think of anything, just shut up and go away. You're the only one denying the science! Not everything already predicted to be happening is predicted to already be being measured, especially things known not to be being measured!

    17. Re:How utterly inhuman by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      When I eat hard boiled eggs, kimchi and drink PBR they SHOULD evacuate the whole office 'just to be safe'.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    18. Re:How utterly inhuman by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I'm supposed to look up a list and guess which ones you are talking about? No, you made the assertion, please back it up with even one example.

    19. Re:How utterly inhuman by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      So, you cannot even provide one example. When backed into a corner, insult... right?

    20. Re:How utterly inhuman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The summary neglects to mention if this method considers the possible longterm effects on the germline. Specifically would the offspring be more likely to have single gene disorders?

    21. Re:How utterly inhuman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's ironic that "You're denying the science" has become a catchphrase similar to "heresy!"

    22. Re:How utterly inhuman by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I provided a scientific source which is well documented. You can deny it if you like ,or provide a credible rebuttal to that analysis. But you'd have to do a lot of work to disprove many years of scientific study which provide the basis. A lot more than pointing to an article full of hyperbole.

  5. This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My spouse was born and raised in NYC. After Hurricane Irma came through, we were driving by a small forest with a few downed trees mixed in and they asked, very seriously, "who is going to clean up all of that mess?" I've also heard "why doesn't someone cut that" when driving by grassland and comments about how much better the area will look when a forest is taken down to put in homes or businesses.

    I guess all of that goes to explain my understanding of why people choose to live in cities. There are people that just don't get it.

    And you know, perhaps we can just combine the two so that we waste less land on it. We could have a policy that all nuclear facilities should be placed near the upwind side of our biggest cities so that most of the fallout will be confined to an area where it won't harm anyone any more than their existing environment already has. This should produce many additional advantages including reduced transmission costs and a reduction in the total area that anti-terrorism teams have to worry about.

    1. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Spouse? How about husband or wife?

      "They asked, very seriously..." They? Are you a polygamist?

      When I tell people I'm married, I say "my wife", not my spouse. I say "she". I want people to know I'm a red-blooded man married to a red-blooded woman. I'm not going to bow to the PC crowd. I'm NOT inclusive and never will be.

      I'm called on it all the time at work. Some tranny cow tried to get people to call it some odd pronoun. I referred to "it" as y'all, this being Texas and because it must have multiple personalities. I refuse to bow and never will. Why should 0.003% of the populations dictate to me. Ditto the homosexuals. I'm one of the few anymore who would refuse to attend sodomite "marriages".

      I'd rather cut grass for a living with the illegal mexicans than bow to the PC BS that people are being force fed. If I'm fired, I'm fired. At least I can hold my head up high and not help people lead a fake life.

    2. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Wife" is all to often a term used by men to put their woman in "her place". I prefer an equal partner in life rather than a subject to rule. Likewise, instead of demeaning my daughter by calling her "my pretty little girl" as many would, I call her "my big, strong, smart xxxxx (insert name here)" and involve her in any repair work I'm doing around the house. Please go back to your cave.

    3. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL! We only have to look at the rates of death in childbirth in Texas to know how much you red-blooded men care for your women. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Texan, and your women should be leaving to find some real men.

    4. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're funny. My wife is a gorgeous Puerto Rican woman who is thrilled to be called "wife". She, like me, is conservative. I celebrate her femininity. She is my equal, and the term wife does nothing to diminish this. As God said, a man shall leave his family and cleave to his WIFE.

      I, too, have a daughter, and she, likewise, is included in my comings and goings about the house as regards chores and anything else she may be interested in. She can change a tire, skin a deer, and mow the lawn, but she is decidedly feminine, the ideal for females.

      Old fashioned, traditional outlooks don't equal caves, but I will not be cowed by the recent attempts of the PC crowd to change terms or attempt to change reality. God made them male and female. There are two sexes. Full stop.

    5. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those childbirth deaths are largely inner city black and hispanic women, whose "men" abandoned them after they got knocked up. 75% of all black children in Texas are born out of wedlock with no dad. Ever wonder why Planned Parenthood has 99% of it's centers in black and hispanic areas? Know your facts.

    6. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry you and your wife are retarded. Life isn't fair.

    7. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bigoted too! It's interesting how other states with far higher (and poorer) black and hispanic populations don't have the same childbirth problem. Apparently in Texas, you get rid of the mixed baby evidence by "letting" them die in childbirth. And, everyone knows why Planned Parenthood is in the black and hispanic areas. If a white woman were having your baby, you'd want them to live.

    8. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by aussie_a · · Score: 2

      My wife changed her name from "Jane" to "Wife" in my phone. Not everyone see's traditional labels as ownership.

    9. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by hawkinspeter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My experience is that "wife" is used by women to denote ownership of their husband.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    10. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by oobayly · · Score: 1

      Or maybe they wanted to make sure the comment was completely anonymous - can you tell what gender the AC is?

      ...tranny cow ... sodomite "marriages"

      That explains it - people shouldn't be allowed to think and behave differently from you.

    11. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Not everyone see's traditional labels as ownership."

      But apostrophes show ownership. So something belongs to "see"?

      If you're going to write see's, why didn't you also write label's?

    12. Re: This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet, they're happy and productive, and you're an nary, lonely asshole. Seems like they got it right.

    13. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by turp182 · · Score: 1

      I'm Agent Hotline in my wife's phone. She used to sell insurance and when she broke her phone (she subscribes to breaking phones, 3-4 per year) and I reloaded stuff my number loaded rather than the insurance company one.

      I am Agent Hotline. I'm exciting.

      Anyway, making pancakes for breakfast. And everyone has to use the bathroom...

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
    14. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow someone has insecurities, the mere mention of certain words triggers you into soapbox rant mode

    15. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, at least ownership of the wallet... In some circles, the title "wife" is the equivalent to "series A investor"...

    16. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Hurr Hurr, very funny!

      But, it isn't about pancakes. It is about if she is hurt and somebody needs to contact you.

      She could be in the hospital, and the doctors would be making her life-and-death decisions instead of you because all they had was her phone.

      They'll be able to figure out who everybody is and call you tomorrow, of course. Wouldn't you want to be there?

    17. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, you regard the term "wife" as negative?
      PS: Nobody respects you for that spouting off about cavemen, making sure to treat your girl exactly as you would a stereotypical boy, or pretending you ever had the ability to rule your "wife", partner, circus performer, big strong equally valid marriage cosigner, or whatever.

    18. Re:This solves SO many problems. Awesome! by turp182 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the response, seriously. I'm prone to things like axe wounds and spider bites (my current issue), but my wife is her real name on my cell phone (other than some additional characters the kids added to the end).

      Thinking it through, responders would be able to get into her unlocked phone (no security code or anything), and the most recent calls would be myself or her parents (or someone else that knows me).

      But that doesn't address your comment, I very much appreciate what you said and have emailed her regarding it.

      Damn it, I want to be Agent Hotline!!!!

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
  6. Two lives matter more than one (on average) by raymorris · · Score: 5, Interesting

    > This is the problem with using life expectancy or other statistical summary averages ---- SOME people still die, and nobody wants that person to be themselves or one of their friends or loved ones; that might be 1 death out of 1000, but it STILL MATTERS to that person and to their community.

    One person saved by spending the $X relocating them matters, of course.
    The two people who COULD have been saved by using that money to clean up the radiation more thoroughly instead also matter.
    The 30 people who could have been saved by spending that money on traffic safety matter still more.

    We have a certain amount of resources, a budget. If we have $10 billion to spend on making people safer, we then have to decide which safety projects to fund, with how much going to each project. We can't fund everything that seems like it might save some lives. Some we we wouldn't want to fund even if we had unlimited money - taking people away from their homes and communities disrupts their lives, and permanently moving people who weren't all that close to Chernobyl was worse for them than leaving them alone would have been. The strongest radioactive material released had a half-life of only eight days, so while a two-week temporary evacuation probably made sense, permanently uprooting the people in the outer perimeter was bad for them, overall.

    Anway, let's consider projects that WOULD be good for people. With research, we find that some safety measures are far more effective than others, and some are far more expensive than others:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m...

    To save the most lives in total we want to mostly fund projects which save a lot of lives per resource spent (we measure resources in dollars, for convenience).

    The J-value used in the nuclear paper takes it a step further by also considering *quality* of life. At Chernobyl, fourteen years after the accident thousands of people were still awaiting the new homes they were promised. Many people would have been better off staying put rather than being forced to leave their communities and spend a decade or more as refugees.

    1. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 2

      The J-value used in the nuclear paper takes it a step further by also considering *quality* of life. At Chernobyl, fourteen years after the accident thousands of people were still awaiting the new homes they were promised. Many people would have been better off staying put rather than being forced to leave their communities and spend a decade or more as refugees.

      This part is the really, really important thing. One of the things that's been found out is that a lot of people will take a shorter but distinctly nicer life--and things like 'being a refugee' or 'stress & strain of being evacuated' have their own costs in life expectancy, too. Having a rough idea what your actual benefits and costs are help you make a good decision...and at the very least, it might be a Good Idea to not evacuate when the cost in life expectancy is more than that of staying put.

    2. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other side, there's a cost to constantly worrying about radiation, if staying put.

    3. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      On average one could say two lives are more important than one. However in the real world we have to take other facts into consideration. If that one person is a One Percenter, that life is automatically more important than everyone else's. A First Worlder's life is more important than a Third Worlder's. A European's life is the most important of all. It pays to remember this.

    4. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Many of the people who want to go back are elderly and in poor health anyway. Some have young children. Those groups will be worse affected, so you are not going to convince them to return just by looking at averages. They want to know the effect on themselves and their children.

      In any case, so many people have moved on now that the communities they go back to won't be viable. They need to rebuild the population by attracting younger people who will want to start families, in an area that is still contaminated.

      Before someone says it, the initial evacuation could not have been avoided. There was no way to know how bad the situation was going to get.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 0

      The strongest radioactive material released had a half-life of only eight days, so while a two-week temporary evacuation probably made sense, permanently uprooting the people in the outer perimeter was bad for them, overall.
      The half life is irrelevant.
      The most dangerous material around Chernobyl is Plutonium.
      If it gets into your organism, you most certainly die due to it.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about making the people who build and approve the nuclear power have to live there? No worse than Living in London, which, unlike most people in the UK, they do currently. So make the fuckers live in a nuclear radiation zone. I bet you'll find a lot more effort goes into not having an accident.

      And I bet the study is a load of bollocks.

    7. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      This part is the really, really important thing. One of the things that's been found out is that a lot of people will take a shorter but distinctly nicer life--and things like 'being a refugee' or 'stress & strain of being evacuated' have their own costs in life expectancy, too. Having a rough idea what your actual benefits and costs are help you make a good decision...and at the very least, it might be a Good Idea to not evacuate when the cost in life expectancy is more than that of staying put.

      The good news is you don't have to reduce life expectancy if you choose to live in the Fukushima zone. You might live longer where you want to be, as long as you are not stressed due to unnecessary fear of very low dose exposure.

    8. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      The strongest radioactive material released had a half-life of only eight days, so while a two-week temporary evacuation probably made sense, permanently uprooting the people in the outer perimeter was bad for them, overall. The half life is irrelevant. The most dangerous material around Chernobyl is Plutonium. If it gets into your organism, you most certainly die due to it.

      Benzene will certainly kill you as well, Why are you OK with walking through benzene clouds? Or did you not even know you do?

      Bright red FUD flags fly when people ignore actual exposure levels and risk. Will the actual levels present pose a significant risk? The answer is no, just like benzene.

    9. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And while we are at it, all people that approve wind farms should live adjacent to one. All people that approve of solar panels should live next to the mining operations, all people that use plastic should live near and oil pipeline. All people that approve hydro projects should live on the water.

    10. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Many of the people who want to go back are elderly and in poor health anyway. Some have young children. Those groups will be worse affected, so you are not going to convince them to return just by looking at averages. They want to know the effect on themselves and their children.

      In any case, so many people have moved on now that the communities they go back to won't be viable. They need to rebuild the population by attracting younger people who will want to start families, in an area that is still contaminated.

      Before someone says it, the initial evacuation could not have been avoided. There was no way to know how bad the situation was going to get.

      Its also important to note that there are still many people displaced from their homes due to the earthquake and tsunami alone;

      https://www.theguardian.com/wo...

      and many people died in those evacuations as well;

      https://reliefweb.int/report/j...

      Ten years after Katrina, there were still thousands who did not have permanent homes, and many homes that will never be re-built.

    11. Re: Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I approve all of the above, so I want my six homes to live in so I can go different places to vacation.

    12. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      To save the most lives in total we want to mostly fund projects which save a lot of lives per resource spent (we measure resources in dollars, for convenience).

      The J-value used in the nuclear paper takes it a step further by also considering *quality* of life. At Chernobyl, fourteen years after the accident thousands of people were still awaiting the new homes they were promised. Many people would have been better off staying put rather than being forced to leave their communities and spend a decade or more as refugees.

      The problem of course, is that the whole shelter in place because it's cheaper assumes that the outcome of the disaster is known at the very beginning of it.

      Was the final situation at Chernobyl known in detail the second the reactor took it's excursion? Did the authorities know the exact future condition of the reactors the second the tsunami breached the seawalls at Fukushima?

      Exposure to radioactive materials is a localized thing. 50 feet away, or even 10 feet away isn't a big deal unless the radiation is super intense. But we don't really know where the particles will end up.

      A fun look at all of this is the Youtube videos by Bionerd. Check her stuff out. She traipses around the reactor buildings and the area, measuring radiation and having fun doing it.

      Regardless, the fatal flaw of this whole idea is that hindsight vision is always 20/20.

      I'm not particularly fearful of radioactivity, but if I saw reactor building 1 explode in Fukushima, I would not need an order to evacuate, I'd be in the car as soon as I could.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    13. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Having a rough idea what your actual benefits and costs are help you make a good decision...and at the very least, it might be a Good Idea to not evacuate when the cost in life expectancy is more than that of staying put.

      Having a rough idea is the problem. Both Chernobyl and Fukushima, and even TMI, experienced the "Fog of War", which of course is that situational awareness only barely exists.

      It is criminally easy for us to declare that there was no need to evacuate after the main disaster passes. we know what happened, the authorities did not know what would happen, they just had burning or exploding reactor buildings.

      Authorities have to make decisions based upon what they know when they have to make those decisions. And heaven help the person who decides that "we shall save money and not evacuate", and then something really untoward happens and a lot of people are killed.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    14. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Before someone says it, the initial evacuation could not have been avoided. There was no way to know how bad the situation was going to get.

      Oh, on Slashdot, they know - somehow they know.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    15. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Benzene will certainly kill you as well
      In which dose?
      1mg per kg body weight?
      1micro gram?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    16. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      So, now you are concerned about dose and levels? Why not in your previous post?

    17. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Because you can goole the deadly dose of Plutonium yourself very easy.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    18. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      You can google the deadly dose of anything easily.

      But you avoid the thing that matters, which is the amount you would actually be exposed to.

    19. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      First off, you might want to reread what I said--'cost' does not always mean monetary cost, and I was trying to underline its human costs--and then reread the summary at least. It looks like they're proposing a new tool, using past examples, to enable better decision-making at the time of the disaster.

      Secondly, I had to get at least some training in how to handle suddenly-happening disaster situations because I might be working in some rather dangerous labs, so I can quite definitely tell you that no, you can very much know what might happen and what the rough odds are, and the people who opt to go in and get more intel know exactly what they're doing when the facility has properly-trained staff. (This sadly cannot be said for Chernobyl.) If you don't have a decent idea what 'burning and/or exploding reactor buildings' might result in, you have no business being responsible for them. This includes being in the position where you are the one telling the person who officially gets to make the evacuation call if it's needed. Especially then, since it's basically your job to know those kinds of things.

      Thirdly, you're not considering the converse situations, which have also happened. Unnecessary evacuations are crying wolf, and that's an incredibly well-understood problem. That's why tools like this are wanted in the first place; there are costs in this world other than money. The ones to consider most here are the costs in credibility and in human terms, since evacuations are not free of stress and such things as traffic accidents, and after some disasters there's a significant risk of roads being not necessarily safe for that level of use. Do you wanna be the guy who calls for an evacuation 'just to be safe' and the worst that happens is something like discovering the hard way that the key bridge was weakened to the point that it would collapse while fully loaded with evacuees? Would you be happy with getting known for calling for evacuations when it's not that big a deal often enough that people don't evacuate anymore--and die because for once it really was quite necessary to evacuate? Evacuations are not the calm, orderly things with end points at well-prepared evacuation centers with infinite capacity for all and their pets. They've got their own risks and dangers.

      Anything that can reduce the fog and enable you to make better choices should be welcomed.

    20. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      First off, you might want to reread what I said--'cost' does not always mean monetary cost, and I was trying to underline its human costs--and then reread the summary at least. It looks like they're proposing a new tool, using past examples, to enable better decision-making at the time of the disaster.

      All costs are financial in one way or another. A human life prematurely lost is lost money, and an old life lost is often a gain, or at least less of a drain on money. This is such a minor part of the argument, I don't see much need to belabor it. But that's why we call it cost.

      Secondly, I had to get at least some training in how to handle suddenly-happening disaster situations because I might be working in some rather dangerous labs, so I can quite definitely tell you that no, you can very much know what might happen and what the rough odds are, and the people who opt to go in and get more intel know exactly what they're doing when the facility has properly-trained staff.

      Rough odds is an understatement. I've worked in a lot of dangerous situations, and you prepare yourself as best you can, but if the facility is in total destruction mode, will you - the person who presumably knows all of the things that can go wrong - still be alive?

      Will all of the possible failure modes be discovered? The physical plant at Fukushima suggests otherwise, and let's not forget the human caused destruction at Chernobyl. Without that one dumb experiment, the plant would probably be happily generating electricity today.

      If you don't have a decent idea what 'burning and/or exploding reactor buildings' might result in, you have no business being responsible for them.

      Which certainly argues for erring on the side of caution. As noted before, the evacuation was not a simple "JEEZUS K RYST! Get everyone the FSCK outa here NOW!

      It started with the area right around the plant, got it extended a couple times as the situation deteriorated with the cooling systems failing, than finally as the reactor buildings were exploding, was taken to it's fullest extent. This seems like prudent decisions (one of the few with regards to that Power Plant that had 100 percent chance of failing) not the "Run away! Run Away! concept that this study suggests happened.

      Now I know a little bit about nuclear power. If I was having a picnic with the wife and kids, say 5 kilometers away from a nuc power plant, and I saw smoke followed by an explosion that blew apart the building the reactor was housed in, I would hot-tail it as far away as I could get, and would try my darndest to head in the direction away from the wind. I take it you would stay there and enjoy the show, calmly explaining that it wasn't possible for a nuclear explosion, and all of that radioactive exposure doesn't really matter unless it's a huge dose? Something tells me you too would leave the area, and long before you had 100 percent situational awareness.

      That's why I place so little value in studies that are done by people who have no responsibility for the command decisions, and never will. Who with the perfect hindsight of armchair analysts write a sentence or two about how they are not casting judgement, then write a whole article that casts judgement.

      Perhaps these folk with all of their knowledge of exactly how things are and how they will unfold need a promotion to the people making the decisions, and then bearing the repercussions if one of their shelter in place decisions costs a lot of people their lives or health.

      Of course there are costs for large scale evacuations. That's why you design as much as possible to avoid the need for them.

      Thirdly, you're not considering the converse situations, which have also happened. Unnecessary evacuations are crying wolf, and that's an incredibly well-understood problem.

      Okay, looks like I need you to give the reasons why there was no need for ev

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    21. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      I'm not particularly fearful of radioactivity, but if I saw reactor building 1 explode in Fukushima, I would not need an order to evacuate, I'd be in the car as soon as I could.

      I'm not particularly fearful of radioactivity either. If I saw a reactor building explode, I tape up my windows and stay indoors for a couple days. THEN I'd evacuate, if it looked to require longer term safety than waiting on short-half-life stuff to decay away....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    22. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      I'm going to do a highlights reel for this, because I really don't want to waste time with you being stupid.

      First off, you might want to reread what I said--'cost' does not always mean monetary cost, and I was trying to underline its human costs--and then reread the summary at least. It looks like they're proposing a new tool, using past examples, to enable better decision-making at the time of the disaster.

      All costs are financial in one way or another. A human life prematurely lost is lost money, and an old life lost is often a gain, or at least less of a drain on money. This is such a minor part of the argument, I don't see much need to belabor it. But that's why we call it cost.

      Either way, you're the one who decided that this is a financial choice.

      Secondly, I had to get at least some training in how to handle suddenly-happening disaster situations because I might be working in some rather dangerous labs, so I can quite definitely tell you that no, you can very much know what might happen and what the rough odds are, and the people who opt to go in and get more intel know exactly what they're doing when the facility has properly-trained staff.

      Rough odds is an understatement. I've worked in a lot of dangerous situations, and you prepare yourself as best you can, but if the facility is in total destruction mode, will you - the person who presumably knows all of the things that can go wrong - still be alive?

      I'm not sure how to break it to you, but this is why everybody gets the training. If the facility is in total destruction mode, the last thing anybody needs is some idiot making the wrong choice because it 'seemed a good idea at the time' and making things worse...and yes, yes this is always, always possible.

      Will all of the possible failure modes be discovered? The physical plant at Fukushima suggests otherwise, and let's not forget the human caused destruction at Chernobyl. Without that one dumb experiment, the plant would probably be happily generating electricity today.

      Actually, from what I've seen from people who unlike you know what they're talking about what with being nuclear physicists and engineers? Chernobyl was a 100% predictable failure mode that they predicted themselves--that's kinda why it's so infamously dumb an experiment. It is an accident that's completely the result of them choosing to deliberately disable failsafes and then deliberately create the circumstances that the failsafes were intended to prevent. And this is why you have at least some of your failsafes designed so they cannot be disabled at all, ever, at least without it being shut down & reactivation required for starting it up again.

      As for Fukushima? It was ruled to have been an avoidable accident. They'd actually been warned of the failure mode that happened, long enough ahead of time that they could have instituted any number of measures to ensure that there was no requirement for external power for the required cooling. It's actually impossible to say that even the severity of the earthquake or the tsunami were a surprise, because one of the events cited in the warnings was the 869 Sanriku earthquake & tsunami, which is incredibly close to the 2011 Tohaku one.

      Oh, and a decent number of designs by that time avoid depending on things like pumps for cooling after having to do a shutdown, because it turns out people were quite aware that pumps can fail before 2011.

      If you don't have a decent idea what 'burning and/or exploding reactor buildings' might result in, you have no business being responsible for them.

      Which certainly argues for erring on the side of caution. As noted before, the evacuation was not a simple "JEEZUS K RYST! Get everyone the FSCK outa here NOW!

      It started with the area

    23. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I'm not particularly fearful of radioactivity, but if I saw reactor building 1 explode in Fukushima, I would not need an order to evacuate, I'd be in the car as soon as I could.

      I'm not particularly fearful of radioactivity either. If I saw a reactor building explode, I tape up my windows and stay indoors for a couple days. THEN I'd evacuate, if it looked to require longer term safety than waiting on short-half-life stuff to decay away....

      And of another explosion happens every couple of days? What you are doing is deciding the history of the event before it occurs. Make certain you have a lot of water and MRE's or equivalent on hand. As well, some manner of weaponry to guard it and yourself.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    24. Re:Two lives matter more than one (on average) by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Note the "for a couple days, THEN I'd evacuate".

      I wouldn't evacuate immediately, but after a couple days, if it looks like evacuation is called for (which basically means "things aren't under control yet), then Id leave.

      As to guns, yes, I own some. Further deponent sayeth not....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  7. So by this logic... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1, Funny

    If you want to join the latest American fad and become a mass shooter, you really ought to target a hospice.

    None of these people were going to live more than 9 months anyway, so it's no big deal. The authorities should let you off with just a warning.

    1. Re:So by this logic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But targeting those that are dying would mark conservatives as the inhuman monsters they are.

    2. Re:So by this logic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of those people may even welcome the bullet. You still won't get off with a warning though.

      Your logic is correct. The financial impact to society of shooting up a hospice would be minimal and possibly even positive. As a society we're not big on euthanasia of humans so the idea is abhorrent. That doesn't change the cold hard math.

  8. Q.E.D. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    pittsburgh is looking better all the time

  9. Riiiiiiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What are you trying to sell us timeshares in Fukushima

  10. Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by blindseer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For some reason I got to talking with some of my co-workers on the nuclear emergency evacuation plans that get printed in phone books and such. We live near an operating nuclear power plant so I guess plans like this are legally required or something. The area around the reactor was separated into evacuation zones, each zone is supposed to head out away from the power plant to a specified neighboring city.

    One of my co-workers mentioned that where we worked was in one zone and where his children went to school was in a different zone. He said they can take their plan and shove it, he's got his own plan. I suspect that he's not unique. If someone were to actually order an evacuation then we'd have chaos as everyone does their own thing. I suspect that the police and National Guard would be called out to maintain some semblance of order but that's just wishful thinking.

    We've had evacuations because of floods before and I saw some of the mayhem from a fairly local, and visible, threat. You take an invisible and widespread threat (and quite likely theoretical threat) like a radiation release then all plans will go out the window. You'll have panicked parents punching out police officers at roadblocks so they can get to their children before the school buses them off to somewhere a county away from where the parents are supposed be. That's assuming the police even show up.

    But we can't have nuclear power because we have what has been proven to be a non-issue while we keep burning coal, which also creates a much more certain (and again still theoretical) threat to the safety of children.

    Oh, and the lack of new nuclear power means we keep operating current nuclear power plants decades beyond their designed lifespan. Fukushima Daiichi would likely have been shutdown 20 years ago if Japan had not stopped building new nuclear power plants.

    So, we can do an orderly shutdown of these old nuclear power reactors or wait until we have to do a very disorderly shutdown. We'll have people claim we can replace these nuclear power reactors with wind and solar but how much will that cost? Wind might look cheap until we figure out that all installed capacity is not equal. A nuclear power plant can have a capacity factor of 90% and wind a capacity factor of 30%. You shutdown a one gigawatt nuclear power plant then you'll need three gigawatts of wind capacity and a Tesla PowerWall big enough to run a small city for hours. Money costs lives too, raising energy prices means less money for food, medical care, and so on.

    We've known that nuclear power is exceedingly safe. This study of current practice proves that nuclear is even safer than shown before. Maybe there was a good reason to stop building as many nuclear power plants as we did in the 1970s and 1980s. Not building new nuclear power reactors now is just making things worse.

    --
    I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    1. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are no credible plans for commissioning all the plants in the world. Just more expensive than the output. It'll all come back to us someday, in some incarnation.

    2. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      They would not have shut the old ones down, why throw away a valuable asset if you don't have to? Shareholders demand you get maximum value from that multi-billion dollar plant and keep it going as long as possible. They demand you lobby the regulator to let you do it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 0

      A nuclear power plant can have a capacity factor of 90%
      Only if you run it as a base load plant.

      CFs are completely meaningless, especially for people like you who don't grasp what it means.

      Example: France used to get 70% of its power from nuclear, now it is a bit less. Do you really think all the plants run with a CF of 90%? How should that work?

      Money costs lives too, raising energy prices means less money for food, medical care, and so on.
      In Japan? Har Har Har. You really have no clue what the difference is between a nearly 3rd world country like the US and a modern high tech society?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    4. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Capacity factors are very important, that is why the industry uses them and will continue to use them. I know you want to wish them away because of the lower numbers associated with wind and solar. But you can't just decide on your own and dictate they are not important.

      There is no rule a plant must be run at its full CF, I agree, and many are not. But CF signifies not only full capability, but also the availability of that resource, and availability is of utmost importance to grid reliability and management.

      Its nice you brought up France, who has essentially proven that nuclear is a central element to low CO2 emissions. They kick Germany's ass every day, and have been doing so for quite some time. France is the leader in large industrialized countries when it comes to clean air electrical production. They also displace claims that nuclear cannot vary output.

    5. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capacity Factor doesn't matter? Fuck I hope you're not in charge of choosing the scale and scope of the server farm... Fucking idiot!

    6. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      How can France kick Germany's ass in CO2 production when it is importing 10% - 20% of its power from Germany?

      France is the leader in large industrialized countries when it comes to clean air electrical production.
      Yes, because they are not far behind Germany in terms of renewables ... in absolute numbers. In relative numbers they are far behind Portugal, even Spain and Denmark.

      But that was not the point you wanted to make, right?

      Like to swim in front of La Hague? I pledge you to reconsider ...

      They also displace claims that nuclear cannot vary output.
      No, they don't. They adjust the load to the supply, while other grids adjust the supply to the load, aka adjust output. France has an artificial high base load (far over 50%) ratio. They run the reprocessing plants at night from the surplus power instead of lowering the output of the nuclear plant.
      If they had no nuclear plants but ordinary power production like the rest of Europe the whole country would use and produce 20% - 30% less power.
      Then again, with so many nuclear plants, you can juggle them around, have some run with constant power, have some mainly react to reduced load, and the others react to increasing load, and change the plan for each plant a few hours later.
      As individual plants, a French nuclear plant can not follow load any better than a German one, which basically means: in low 10MW steps it can - a little bit - in bigger steps it can't. "A little bit" means: if you power it down right now by 10MW, you have to power it up again in about 15 minutes ... or like Chernobyl: you are stuck at your current power level for hours, you only can reduce it further, but can not power up again, for hours.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    7. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      France does not import 10% of its power from Germany. But is easy to just check CO2 output and see that France is much lower.

    8. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      France does not import 10% of its power from Germany.
      Yes it does: https://www.energy-charts.de/e...

      But is easy to just check CO2 output and see that France is much lower.
      Not difficult with 25% less population :D

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    9. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      France does not import 10% of its power from Germany. Yes it does: https://www.energy-charts.de/e...

      But is easy to just check CO2 output and see that France is much lower. Not difficult with 25% less population :D

      My god you are ignorant. That chart just shows total German imports and exports, it doesn't even have the total power used in France at all, that is a German export chart.

      As for CO2 output, there is the thing called 'per capita'. Have you ever heard of it? Germany is almost twice as high as France in per capita CO2 emissions. https://www.google.com/search?...

      And if you want to just look at electrical generation, you can do it 'per TWH';

      "In 2016, Germany generated 545 terawatt-hours (TWh) of electricity at an average rate of approximately 560 grams of carbon dioxide emitted per kWh. By contrast, France generated 530 TWh of electricity at an average rate of approximately 58 grams of carbon dioxide emitted per kWh. In terms of carbon emissions from electricity, this means that Germany emitted almost exactly ten times as much as France -- over 300 million metric tonnes."

      http://environmentalprogress.o...

      Your problem is you just say stuff you want to be true without even checking to see if it is true. Why did you know now this about Germany and France?. It is common knowledge. Are you still going to ignore this well established fact and make your false claims?

    10. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      France is a leading EXPORTER of electricity in Europe;

      https://www.statista.com/stati...

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=...

    11. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Strange that every statistic shows something different :D
      Germany is the leading exporter.
      And France is alternating between an leading importer for a few years and then being a small exporter again.

      Regarding CO2 emissions in electric power generation, obviously France looks much better there than Germany. No one doubted that.

      My point simply was: a decent amount of electric power (roughly 10% of Frances usage) is produced by Germany.

      This is focused more on 2016 and more a news than a "report":
      http://energypost.eu/france-ca...

      This is focused on 2014 and an energy report:

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    12. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Strange that every statistic shows something different :D Germany is the leading exporter. And France is alternating between an leading importer for a few years and then being a small exporter again.

      Regarding CO2 emissions in electric power generation, obviously France looks much better there than Germany. No one doubted that.

      My point simply was: a decent amount of electric power (roughly 10% of Frances usage) is produced by Germany.

      This is focused more on 2016 and more a news than a "report": http://energypost.eu/france-ca...

      This is focused on 2014 and an energy report:

      You are just seeing what you want to see, not reality. Germany and France both import and export at different times. Any time either is importing, it could be claimed that they can't 'meet their power demand'. You fell for that, because you wanted to. France exports much more than it imports.

      France has been the leading net exporter of electricity for years, Germany has been a close second. It is possible they produced slightly more this past year;

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=...

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=...

    13. Re:Nuclear emergency plans are wishful thinking by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      And there is this;

      "In the 2015-2016 period, the highest export balances of ENTSO-E countries were seen in France (+65 TWh) and Germany (+52 TWh). Italy was the biggest importer (46 TWh), followed by the United Kingdom (21 TWh). Data calculated for the July 2015 to June 2016 period relative to previous 12 months"

      http://bilan-electrique-2016.r...

  11. Any car plowing down pedestrians in NFZ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if there are a lot of moving vehicles within the NFz (Nuclear Fallout Zone)?

    In London, as in several other cities, the danger of pedestrians being plowed down by vehicles is real

    1. Re:Any car plowing down pedestrians in NFZ? by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      In London the danger of being mown down by mad cyclists is real too, However, where the traffic rarely exceeds 7mph, there are bigger dangers - such as dying of boredom while waiting to be mown down by a vehicle.

      Personally, I think NOx is a serious problem here.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    2. Re: Any car plowing down pedestrians in NFZ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In London, as in several other cities, the danger of pedestrians walking suddenly in to the road with their noses pressed to their phones and being plowed down by vehicles is real

      There, I fixed it for you. As a cyclist in London, itâ(TM)s not the vehicles I fear the most...

  12. Cost? R U F@@king Kidding Me? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Jee wis mister wizard, the glorious as holes that built a nuclear site to minimum specâ(TM)s should have their heads hanging the 30 foot wall where 60 foot waves pass by. As for the soulless but whole from Bristol. I thought it was harder to become a professor in the U.K..

  13. Oh, brother by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

    I love it when here, on Slashdot, we get these self-serving "anonymous submissions" where some obscure academic pushes their own pet ideas on something or other. It seems to happen once or twice a month anymore.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Oh, brother by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Judging by how we tear apart these studies, burn the scraps, and call the researcher's mother a whore, maybe they're actually being submitted by rival researchers?

  14. This is some really slimy propaganda by Angst+Badger · · Score: 1

    I'm ordinarily okay with scams preying on ignorance of basic mathematics. Most of them are cons where most of the participants get what their irrational greed has earned them, and the state-run affairs like the lottery at least pour money into schools and -- one hopes -- more people who understand simple statistics. Nuclear accidents, on the other hand, affect those who know better as much as those who don't. Gamma rays will be gamma rays, after all.

    When someone says that a population of 30,000 people will lose an average of 9 months of life, that doesn't mean everyone loses 9 months of life evenly. This is an average, and injuries from radiation follow a Gaussian distribution. Half of the population will lose less than 9 months, and half the population will lose more. Some will lose a *lot* more than 9 months of their lives. Many may live out their pre-accident life expectancies but do so with various impairments.

    The only reason we're talking about nuclear at this point is that there is a shit ton of money invested in uranium extraction and processing and a handful of companies that stand to make billions off of building and running the plants, never mind the enormous sums that the arms industry makes off of the great powers with their wars to secure supply lines.

    It's not because wind and solar aren't well on their way to supplying our needs or that we don't already have current and near-future energy storage technologies to avoid shortfalls. It's because a small number of institutional investors can make an insane amount of money from maintaining the current highly-centralized power generation business model, and there's no danger of fed up consumers cutting some or all of their profits by installing their own household nuclear reactors like there is with solar.

    This changes the moment we have practical fusion power, but fission is not only a pointlessly dangerous scam, it's an entirely unnecessary one.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    1. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by blindseer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      fission is not only a pointlessly dangerous scam, it's an entirely unnecessary one.

      Citation needed. Here's mine that says you're full of shit.
      https://www.nextbigfuture.com/...

      Nuclear fission is the safest energy source we have available today. It's also cheaper than solar, hydro, and offshore wind.
      https://www.instituteforenergy...

      Nuclear also has a lower carbon footprint than solar.
      http://www.world-nuclear.org/u...

      If there is an energy scam out there then it's solar. Onshore wind and hydro aren't too bad but they are limited in utility by geography, nuclear energy is not. About the rest of your claims, I think you have your aluminum foil helmet on too tight.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    2. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Rooftop solar could power the planet, at a lower cost than nuclear. Nuclear is cheaper only when the government gives the land for free and waives liability.

    3. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Rooftop solar could power the planet, at a lower cost than nuclear.

      Citation needed. How does that work in northern latitudes? Even where I live in the Midwest we're getting barely 9.5 hours between sunrise and sunset, not actual usable daylight on a stationary solar panel, and days are getting shorter.

      Nuclear is cheaper only when the government gives the land for free and waives liability.

      Solar gets subsidies too. Let's do away with all these energy subsidies and see who wins out. Even Japan is building new nuclear now. Do you want to tell them how much nuclear energy costs? I'm pretty sure they are fully aware of the costs.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    4. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an average, and injuries from radiation follow a Gaussian distribution.

      Really? Then where are my negative outliers? I.e. people getting negative injury so it's like getting rad-powered superpowers I suppose?

      In short, please learn some actual statistics before you open your piehole and pretend to be a statistician.

    5. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      world-nuclear.org is a pro nuclear anti "everything else" FUD site.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Let's do away with all these energy subsidies and see who wins out.
      No one wins out.
      We - as in humans - all lose.

      Without an active policy done by "the political arm" changes are much to slow. If there would not be politicians and citizens demanding it, no one would quit from nuclear or quit from coal, until he really needs: because the citizens need the power and have no control from where they get their power.
      30 years ago electric power simply came out of the power plug, that was it.

      OTOH if there had not been "the wrong policies" there never had been any nuclear plants anyway, and we had nothing to discuss.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    7. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. And while you life may only be shortened moderately, the quality of that life may be dramatically worse. Radiation causes a nice selection of really unpleasant diseases on long-term exposure, many of which do not kill you.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    8. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by blindseer · · Score: 1

      The paper I cited was a compilation of multiple studies, they collected no data themselves they just put a bunch of independent studies together in one place. If you have a better source then please provide it, I'm curious where you get your ideas.

      You seem to do that over and over again, make claims with nothing to back it up. That "anti everything else" site shows where they get their data, you did not, why should I believe anything you wrote?

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    9. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Looking at those links, and not clicking them, they don't really appear as "citations" to me. They appear to be positions.

      Instead of clicking your "citations," I looked at the meta-data to see what you're shilling as "citations."

      nextbigfuture.com is the blog of a guy named Brian L. Wang. From their about page:

      Brian L. Wang, M.B.A. is a long time futurist. A lecturer at the Singularity University and Nextbigfuture.com author. He worked on the most recent ten year plan for the Institute for the Future and at a two day Institute for the Future workshop with Universities and City planners in Hong Kong (advising the city of Hong Kong on their future plans). He had a TEDx lecture on Energy. Brian is available as a speaker for corporations and organizations that value accurate and detailed insight into the development of technology global trends. ...
      He has written over 20000 articles for Nextbigfuture including in depth coverage on energy (especially nuclear and nuclear fusion), space, quantum computers, science, superconductors, nanotechnology, advanced computers and communication, military, technology, AI, urban development, cities and megacities.

      Again, he's an MBA. It is probably a great blog, too, since they let him give a TEDx talk! But, just a blog. Linking to a blog doesn't mean you gave a "citation," it just means you aren't able to explain the ideas you want to convey yourself.

      I also looked up institureforenergyresearch.org, which turns out to be a right wing think tank supported by ExxonMobil and the American Petroleum Institute. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Mother Jones ranked them #12 in the "Dirty Dozen" worst groups questioning anthropogenic climate change http://www.motherjones.com/env...

      world-nuclear.org is just shooting fish in a barrel:

      The World Nuclear Association (WNA) is the international organization that promotes nuclear power and supports the companies that comprise the global nuclear industry. Its members come from all parts of the nuclear fuel cycle, including uranium mining, uranium conversion, uranium enrichment, nuclear fuel fabrication, plant manufacture, transport, and the disposition of used nuclear fuel as well as electricity generation itself.[1]

      Together, WNA members are responsible for 70% of the world's nuclear power as well as the vast majority of world uranium, conversion and enrichment production.[2]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      "Citation" is not a synonym for "www link."

    10. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Looking at those links, and not clicking them, they don't really appear as "citations" to me. They appear to be positions.

      Then give your own citations (or positions) or shut up.

      Instead of clicking your "citations," I looked at the meta-data to see what you're shilling as "citations."

      So you are literally judging a book by it's cover.

      You went through the effort to read what people said about the data presented rather than actually reading the data yourself and making your own decision? That's messed up. Do you take any position on anything before reading Mother Jones so you know what you should think? Can you decide what to have for breakfast without first reading a public opinion poll on the topic?

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    11. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by doom · · Score: 1

      You know, you guys have a standard-of-evidence remarkably similar to our conservative friends. Anything that says something you don't like is obviously biased and deserves to be ignored.

    12. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Why should i believe anything you wrote when the sites you cite are not believeable?
      You come up with the idiotic argument that solar power produces more CO2 than nuclear power, when both during the "power production period" produce zero CO2 and if we would live in a world where everything, including transportation from the remotest area is done with electricity would produce zero CO2.
      Comparing zero CO2 producing power sources and then claiming one produces more than the other is: idiotic.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    13. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Why should i believe anything you wrote when the sites you cite are not believeable?

      My head hurts just reading that. That logic just does not compute.

      I at least cited something. If you want to claim that they are not believable then would not the natural response be to provide a believable source?

      I argue the point of nuclear being lower carbon that solar because the goal, or so I thought, is to reduce carbon output. If that's the goal then why deny access to the lowest carbon energy source we have? If you want to argue that the difference between the two is irrelevant because a future world of electric planes, trains, and automobiles will mean both have a zero carbon footprint then I'll go with that. If you want to claim that solar power has a lower carbon footprint than nuclear then at least show evidence to support it.

      If we can agree that the carbon footprint of both is irrelevant then we are still left with nuclear being more reliable, lower cost, and safer. I gave evidence of nuclear power safety. I gave evidence of it being lower cost. If you want to claim that solar is more reliable than nuclear then you've just plain lost me. Solar cannot be more reliable than nuclear because of this thing called "night". If you want to bring in storage solutions like batteries and pumped hydro, or a "super smart grid", then I can bring in those same technologies to argue that nuclear power can load follow, provide power through emergency shutdowns, and provide all the power we'd need absent other energy sources. Oh, and do all of these things without increasing costs. Solar power isn't just expensive because the collectors are made of space age materials, it's expensive because it's unreliable. If we add the storage and "smarts" to make solar reliable then that adds to the costs.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    14. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, and I can’t be bothered citing here, but solar and wind destroy habitats and flight paths of MANY bird species. The windiest zones, believe it or not, are great for winged creatures. And add to the mix solar which just kfc’s them on the spot. The hidden cost of ‘free’ energy is our children’s future too.

    15. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      That's just dumb. Biased sources are biased, you're saying that I'm not allowed to notice or I'm biased? Yes, I'm biased against including sources of information I already know are biased! That's called filtering out garbage.

      Why do you think it has anything to do with if I agree with it or not? You won't explain that, because you can't. You just made it up from whole cloth, a wild stab in the dark.

    16. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      No, no, no, you don't get people to consider crap data by insisting they introduce data.

      If your data is crap, it gets thrown out. It matters not one fucking bit if I have a better answer, or if we just don't know. If you want to know what the scientific views are, look them up in reliable sources not in blogs, political think tanks, or industry trade group websites.

    17. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      If we can agree that the carbon footprint of both is irrelevant then we are still left with nuclear being more reliable, lower cost, and safer.
      No we can't.

      A solar plant can not cause a disaster ...

      Solar power isn't just expensive because the collectors are made of space age materials,
      They are not expensive, and they are not made from strange space age materials, they are made from: sand. Just like the chips in your phone or computer.
      it's expensive because it's unreliable.
      You are still mixing up "dispatchable" with reliable.

      If we add the storage and "smarts" to make solar reliable then that adds to the costs.
      Who cares? It is still cheaper than nuclear power ...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    18. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Again, no sources for your claims. You can tell me the sky is blue and I might believe you. You can show me the sky is blue and I cannot deny it. If you want to make a claim about solar energy then show me. I got my numbers from the US Department of Energy, if you want to tell me they are mistaken, lying, or something then you need to have someone at least as credible to provide proof.

      You are still mixing up "dispatchable" with reliable.

      Dispatchablity describes one thing and reliability describes another. Something can be both, one, the other, or neither.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    19. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by blindseer · · Score: 1

      If your data is crap, it gets thrown out. It matters not one fucking bit if I have a better answer, or if we just don't know.

      If you don't have a better answer then how can you tell me my data is crap?

      I have to wonder if you are being serious.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    20. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It was explained above, if you can't remember, just read the reasons again.

    21. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      How does that work in northern latitudes?

      Someone who is too stupid to know about transmission lines is too stupid to understand reality. Now that I've identified the root cause, it's up to you to try to fix yourself.

      Solar gets subsidies too.

      Oil gets many billions of dollars in subsidies. No other energy source comes close. The only reason the idiots complain about subsidies is that the "targeted" solar subsidies are more visible.

      and like an infant, your permanency is too short to see the oil subsidies, out of sight, out of mind.

      Let's do away with all these energy subsidies and see who wins out.

      Solar. No question. Especially if you include the trillions wasted killing civilians in the Middle East to stabilize oil prices.

    22. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you have your aluminum foil helmet on too tight.

      I think you've got fucking nuclear autism.

    23. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So where exactly do we store the waste? Corps passing costs to all of us is their wet dream. Nuclear power's SCAM is now obvious and leaves us with crickets chirping when it comes to how they intend to handle the aspect of waste.

    24. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      We did not talk about numbers but about your ridiculous claims: solar causes more death than nuclear, solar causes more CO2 than nuclear, solar is more expensive than nuclear etc. p.p.

      No idea why you need links when the news are all over the place that wind and solar are the cheapest power production means we can install ... since a decade or more.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    25. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      He does have a point, and has made it multiple times: His data may be crap. Supply some other data for us to look at, other than links to "your data is crap".
      Personally, a reference to Mother Jones would strike me as crap, but I'm not refuting it here.

    26. Re:This is some really slimy propaganda by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It depends on the data. If the data purports to be serious, then it likely needs a serious look to know.

      If it is a list of biased sources and he didn't put any disclaimer on it they were biased sources, then no, all you need to say is that it is crap.

      I listed the reasons each data source is problematic, no attempt was made to impeach those claims! What he's saying is that he wants counter-citations. No, when your data is crap it is crap, the person identifying the problems in your data is not expected to provide alternate sources of data. You don't have to whip dicks out and measure; you just check if the data in question was in fact crap! Other people will wait and cite their own data when they're the ones making a claim.

  15. Proof that "climate change" is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fact that they are saying nuclear fallout isn't a big deal while air pollution is. I can't laugh hard enough.

    1. Re:Proof that "climate change" is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And CO2 is even being called a toxin, by some. Never mind that most of the biosphere considers CO2 to be food.

  16. The inhumanity of accountancy by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

    Remediation should be the watchword for the decision maker, not relocation.

    Performing a life-saving (or avoiding life-shortening) relocation simply on the basis of whether it is "cost-effective" is a disgraceful way for a government or corporation to behave.

    Apart from anything else, who would trust a government (even less: a company) to perform that life-long remediation? To keep investing in an area long after the voters have forgotten what happened there. And who is to say that the remediation would not have effects: either inconvenience, suffering or grief for those concerned.

    And in any case. We are told that prevention is better then cure

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:The inhumanity of accountancy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Performing a life-saving (or avoiding life-shortening) relocation simply on the basis of whether it is "cost-effective" is a disgraceful way for a government or corporation to behave.

      There is a limited amount of funds. The more you spend on one, the more others you leave hanging. If the cost of relocating one person could save two lives when spent on funding a hospital - what would be "a disgraceful way to behave"?

      And in any case. We are told that prevention is better then cure

      But you are never told to use your brain to think. Which is entirely the problem.

    2. Re:The inhumanity of accountancy by gweihir · · Score: 1

      There is also the little side-issue of quality-of-life. You can actually get quite old with permanent radiation poisoning if it is not too severe. It is just a life most people would rather not have, with a host of bizarre and very unpleasant illnesses.

      I think we should let these "researchers" stay behind and evacuate everybody else. When they have figured out their error after a few years, we can evacuate them as well.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  17. Economic circumstances, not environmental by whoever57 · · Score: 2

    This report is bullshit, or perhaps the summary of the report failed to summarize it accurately.

    For comparison, the average Londoner loses four and a half months to air pollution,

    Compared to what?

    while the average resident of Manchester lives 3.3 years less than his/her counterpart in Harrow, North London. Meanwhile, boys born in Blackpool lose 8.6 years of life on average compared with those born in London's borough of Kensington and Chelsea.

    The last time I looked, Harrow, Kensington and Chelsea were all part of London. Perhaps the reason people born in these districts is related to economic circumstances of their lives, not environmental.

    But do people in London live longer (more than Blackpool or Manchester) or shorter (4 and a half months) lives?

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:Economic circumstances, not environmental by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      But do people in London live longer (more than Blackpool or Manchester) or shorter (4 and a half months) lives?

      Yes. Yes they do.

  18. So... by Lohrno · · Score: 1

    So how many feral ghouls are there in London now then?

    1. Re:So... by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      It depends. Where are the Tories housing their back-benchers these days?

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    2. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same place they have for centuries: across the floor from the feral ghouls.

  19. Researchers themselves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Researchers themselves, and their families, would of course stay in the zone.

  20. conclusion is easy : by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    evacuate London as soon as possible.

    1. Re:conclusion is easy : by oobayly · · Score: 1

      Interesting that comments like that are always anonymous - if you think you're correct you should be willing to put your name to your thoughts.

      A bit like a colleague of mine - he believes that black people are less intelligent than white people. That makes him by definition racist, but he doesn't like being described as racist for some reason.

    2. Re:conclusion is easy : by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That makes him by definition racist"

      For the sake of argument, suppose it could be proven correct. Would that still make it "racist"?

    3. Re:conclusion is easy : by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      IQ is genetic and adoption studies kind of confirm it. Is this so surprising? After all, some genetic traits lead to larger people (Northern Europeans vs. Southern Europeans) or more fast-twitch muscles for some groups over others, why wouldn't we expect race to impact intelligence?

  21. Remember kids... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never leave home without your radiation suit.

  22. Heartache By The Numbers by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Funny

    The rents are much more reasonable in a nuclear disaster fallout zone, but it's very hard to get a pint of London Pride bitter.

    So it's probably best to stick with London, unless you're a Tory or UKIP nonce, in which case the nuclear disaster fallout zone is a far better choice, since you won't find as many SJWs there and you can be among your own kind. We're offering a free tube of sunscreen if you decide to move. We'll even drive you to the train.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Behold the tolerance of the left. They believe that anyone who disagrees with them should be shipped to a nuclear disaster zone. Isn't there a word for people who want to kill everyone who disagrees with them? Oh yes, fascist.

      Furthermore, this clearly worthless troll comment gets ranked up by other intolerant leftists.

    2. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Behold the cuckery of the right: they want lefties to live in caves before they'll accept AGW is real, then will use living in caves as how detached from reality the left is to continue to deny reality.

      And how when they're doing the threatening, it is the right of people to do so, but if THEY get threatened, it's a catastrophy that must be proving the left is bad.

    3. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you have that backwards. Those who wish to give away their national sovereignty to unelected gloabalist elite are free to leave. I don't live in the UK but if I did, I'd be strongly in favor of Brexit.

    4. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Learn to read, nobody offered to pay your shipping, or even put you in the box. You want to escape all us SJWs, you can swim there for all we care.

      What he said was, the rent is cheap and you might like it. I know that sounds the same as being shipped off to a death camp to you, because libraaals communicate using words, and words are scary. But don't think you're getting free shipping out of your mistake.

    5. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by doom · · Score: 1

      And let's dissolve the United States, and watch the red states starve without the subsidy from the blue states.

    6. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, but query your choice of words: a "nonce" is a paedophile, while "ponce" is (broadly) someone who lives off the earnings of others (see: "solicitor", member of the Windsor family, etc). While there may be a non-zero number of Tory/UKIP nonces, they are, for the most part, ponces (see: Farage trousering an MEP salary whilst doing the sum total of bugger all, etc.). That, of course, doesn't negate the possibility of nonce-ponces or ponce-nonces (ponnonces?), but would leave you less liable for libel.

    7. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well how do you tell the difference between A shit hole and a A privacy reminder from a
      Post-Apocalyptic Hell hole.

      Well ones Called London and the other trump hasn't started yet.

    8. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      I've never willingly heard anyone logical describe themselves as a SJW, just as I've never heard anyone logical describe themselves as a racist.
      Perhaps I need to get out more. Or perhaps it's an effective filter for me.

    9. Re:Heartache By The Numbers by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You definitely need to get out more if you didn't know that there are real people in the world who believe in social justice.

      Shave your neckbeard and check out a "coffee shop," it is likely filled with us.

  23. Stand by... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please stand by while we evaluate if evacuating you from this nuclear disaster area would cost you more or less of your remaining life span.

  24. There you go again by Uberbah · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...regurgitating talking points debunked earlier this week. Although at least this time you're not complaining about the high cost of nuclear power coming from government regulation. Maybe because it was pointed out that a couple hundred million in extra costs from regulation (higher seawall and better backup cooling power) could have saved Japan a couple hundred billion in cleanup costs?

    But we can't have nuclear power because

    Because the cost can never be justified. Didn't seem to pick up on that one.

    But we can't have nuclear power because we have what has been proven to be a non-issue while we keep burning coal

    Coal and nuclear are non sequiturs when wind and solar have lapped them in cost effectiveness, and thats allowing coal and nuclear to externalize most of their costs. Like offloading nuclear plant decommission and waste storage onto taxpayers.

    1. Re:There you go again by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      $5000 could have saved billions in Japan.

      The fuel tank and generator were on the ground level. If they had put them on the roof, there wouldn't have been a meltdown.

      seawall, millions. Designing a safer reactor billions. Putting the generator on the roof of an earthquake hardened building? Cheap.

      It was a full on case of stupid, it wasn't an issue of money, it was a case of hubris. The design has a 100% chance of meltdown in a flood. That wasn't cost. That was pure stupid.

    2. Re:There you go again by blindseer · · Score: 0

      Maybe because it was pointed out that a couple hundred million in extra costs from regulation (higher seawall and better backup cooling power) could have saved Japan a couple hundred billion in cleanup costs?

      Or, maybe, if regulations had not prevented the building of new nuclear power all those reactors at Fukushima could have been replaced with new ones. The reactors that failed were as old as the one at Chernobyl. Chernobyl and Fukushima were second generation designs, what is likely to be the last of the Gen II reactors to go online was the one the just went online at Watts Bar. Watts Bar had that reactor construction suspended for about 40 years before being completed, it was outdated before it was even switched on.

      Japan could have saved billions in cleanup costs by replacing their old reactors with new ones. Even though the wave overcame the seawall the reactor itself was undamaged by the event. What destroyed the reactor was the decay heat from the fuel not being removed by the pumps. Gen III reactors are designed to survive these events even with loss of power for cooling.

      Because the cost can never be justified. Didn't seem to pick up on that one.

      Then why is Japan restarting half of it's fleet of nuclear reactors and starting construction on new ones? The costs can be justified because Japan just made the justification. Before the Fukushima meltdown Japan had about 25% of their electricity from nuclear fission, the plan is to have it at 30% by 2030. All it took was electricity prices rising by 20% to 30% and trillions of dollars spent every year on importing coal and oil.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    3. Re:There you go again by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      regurgitating talking points debunked earlier this week [slashdot.org]

      Having a different opinion does not a debunking make.

      Read a dictionary.

    4. Re:There you go again by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Maybe because it was pointed out that a couple hundred million in extra costs from regulation (higher seawall and better backup cooling power) could have saved Japan a couple hundred billion in cleanup costs?
      Likely not, as later it became published that the pipes in the cooling system were to much damaged by the quake. AmoJ, /. reader, mentioned that a few days/weeks in other nuclear related threats.

      Here is an article about it: http://www.independent.co.uk/n...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    5. Re:There you go again by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      $5000 could have saved billions in Japan. The fuel tank and generator were on the ground level. If they had put them on the roof, there wouldn't have been a meltdown. seawall, millions. Designing a safer reactor billions. Putting the generator on the roof of an earthquake hardened building? Cheap. It was a full on case of stupid, it wasn't an issue of money, it was a case of hubris. The design has a 100% chance of meltdown in a flood. That wasn't cost. That was pure stupid.

      You completely misunderstand the fundamentals of nuclear safety. Having elevated tanks would NOT have guaranteed safety. Patches are not acceptable in nuclear.

      The plant should never have been located where it could be hit by a tsunami as it was never designed to withstand a tsunami. Not placing it in that location would have guaranteed safety.

    6. Re:There you go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So do you have the data to support your claim or is it just speculation without any data?

      Because even if you can't see a problem relocating generators the engineers probably did. /Megol

    7. Re:There you go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was no ordinary Tsunami, and all of Japan's coastline is a Tsunami zone. Nuclear power plants need large bodies of water to dissipate waste heat.

    8. Re:There you go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coal and nuclear are non sequiturs when wind and solar have lapped them in cost effectiveness, and thats allowing coal and nuclear to externalize most of their costs. Like offloading nuclear plant decommission and waste storage onto taxpayers.

      Wind and Solar are not base load power sources, at least without some energy storage mechanism. That being said, where they work, or where it is even close, I certainly support them.

      The biggest thing I'd like to see is nuclear plant lifetimes not extended for the old plants, and to have the worst of the current plants shut down ASAP. If the only way to get that done is to build a new modern plant, with modern safety requirements, at the same site, well I'm okay with that. It is better than keeping the more dangerous reactor tech running.

      In short, has there been any worldwide effort to identify the next likely Fukushima? Japan has certainly taken action, but the world is a big place..

      As far as letting people return. I'm pretty much okay with consenting adults being informed of the risk and allowed to accept an elevated risk. I'm also okay with the government buying them out and letting them move. Perhaps some of each? I'm not okay with anyone who has children or is expecting to have children to live in an area with appreciable risk. The kids aren't old enough to make such decisions.

    9. Re:There you go again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Wind and Solar are not base load power sources

      An a line often repeated, but wind and solar generating capacity would be spaced across the grid, same as you would for coal or nuclear power. You wouldn't use a single wind farm to power a state any more than with a single coal or nuclear plant.

      at least without some energy storage mechanism

      Like the Ludington Pumped Storage Power Plant? Excess power is stored in offpeak times - from a nuclear power plant - by pumping water into an artificial reservoir, then let out as needed for hydroelectric generation.

    10. Re:There you go again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Having a different opinion does not a debunking make.

      Fukushima cleanup costing nearly two hundred billion isn't a matter of "opinion".

      That regulation can save enormous sums of money by preventing disasters like Fukushima isn't a matter of "opinion".

      The high costs of plant decommission and nuclear waste being offloaded onto taxpayers isn't a matter of "opinion".

      Read a dictionary.

      You first, dipshit.

    11. Re:There you go again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Angel upthread had a link to an Independent piece that argues the plant was doomed, with or without the tsunami. TEPCO was so half-assed with their maintenance that the earthquake took out the cooling pipes, making meltdown inevitable.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/n...

    12. Re:There you go again by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Fukushima cleanup costing nearly two hundred billion isn't a matter of "opinion".

      Cool story bro, none of that has anything to do with the supposed link to a "debunking".

      You first, dipshit.

      Mommy, stop him, the bad man who can't follow a logical argument is calling me names.

    13. Re:There you go again by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Angel upthread had a link to an Independent piece that argues the plant was doomed, with or without the tsunami. TEPCO was so half-assed with their maintenance that the earthquake took out the cooling pipes, making meltdown inevitable.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/n...

      Well, that is an obvious hit piece, you can tell by the over-use of adjectives placed to make everything sound like 'doom'. You just found an article that takes anecdotal statements and couples with ignorance. But even that article does not contend the melt down would have occured without the tsunami. There are many nuclear plants in Japan and they all did fine through the earthquake. There are 8 units at Fukushima, all the same basic design. 4 that got hit by tsunami had problems, the 4 right next to them that had the same earthquake but did not get hit by tsunami all safely shut down with no significant problems.

      Nuclear plants have redundant safety features, even if one is out of service or alignment, there are others to accomplish the job. This article acts like one system not working would itself be a big problem, very wrong.

      There are a million articles out there that claim to 'expose the truth'. But they make claims without providing the basis. Find any nuclear safety expert and you'll get a different, but accurate story. But I suppose you want to believe this one is true and therefore, despite no corroborating stories independently put forth by people with actual knowledge of reactor safety, you apparently have already decided to believe it.

    14. Re:There you go again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Or, maybe, if regulations had not prevented the building of new nuclear power

      Regulations aren't preventing new plants from being built. The unjustifiable cost of nuclear power is. Just ask a brutalized DAPL protestor, or a fisherman bankrupted by the Deep Horizon oil spill how many shits the government gives about people, the environment or regulations when there's a company wanting to make some money. But nuclear power is far to expensive for even politicians who burn billions on the F-35 trash heap to consider.

      Don't like it? Name the nuclear plant that rolls the complete cost of material mining, refining, plant construction, security, maintenance, insurance, disaster preparedness, decommissioning, and thousands of years of waste storage into the rates it charges to its customers. Of course such a plant is a unicorn.

      all those reactors at Fukushima could have been replaced with new ones

      Constantly building and decommissioning is going to do wonders for the negative cost effectiveness of nuclear power. And you want them to do it without having to worry about regulations. What could possibly go wrong?

      Then why is Japan restarting half of it's fleet of nuclear reactors and starting construction on new ones?

      Why did Obama let bankers continue to run the economy they just crashed rather than prosecuting them? Because they're corrupt AF. Same goes for TEPCO and the government of Japan - pretty much every word out of their incestious mouthes about Fukushima has been a lie.

    15. Re:There you go again by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      So, you'd rather have a meltdown because the cost of a "real fix" is too high for approval, but the "patch" that works shouldn't be done. I live in reality. If $5000 would save $5T, I wouldn't choose a $5T loss.

      Having elevated tanks would NOT have guaranteed safety.

      There is no "guarantee of safety", only "more" and "less" safe, and a cost to each.

      Not placing it in that location would have guaranteed safety.

      That's BANANAs. The only "guarantee" of safety is to Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything. You are an anti-nuclear Luddite, not a proponent of safety.

    16. Re:There you go again by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      A flash flood or other water event, not just a tsunami was a 100% guarantee of meltdown. The design wouldn't be safely shut down in battery time. And the only backup after battery wouldn't work in the wet. The location wasn't the cause. The tsunami was the trigger. But the hubris was the root cause. Cut cutting below minimum safety standards. There were many things they could have done to prevent this. I just identified the one I believe was the cheapest. A small move of the generator and fuel (optional). Having worked with similar facilities, this "patch" is common, all over the world. It's cheap, and it increases safety. Done. And you are the only person on earth that would rather cause a massive incident than perform a '"patch".

    17. Re:There you go again by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      So, you'd rather have a meltdown because the cost of a "real fix" is too high for approval, but the "patch" that works shouldn't be done. I live in reality. If $5000 would save $5T, I wouldn't choose a $5T loss.

      Having elevated tanks would NOT have guaranteed safety.

      There is no "guarantee of safety", only "more" and "less" safe, and a cost to each.

      Not placing it in that location would have guaranteed safety.

      That's BANANAs. The only "guarantee" of safety is to Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything. You are an anti-nuclear Luddite, not a proponent of safety.

      No, you completely misunderstand. I would rather not have plant located where it can be hit by a tsunami to begin with. I certainly would NOT be ok with locating a plant that is not designed to be hit by one in a place where it can be, even if it had an elevated tank and generator. Now, make it tsunami proof, where ALL safety systems are designed to withstand that event, and I might reconsider, but this plant was not designed that way.

    18. Re:There you go again by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      A flash flood or other water event, not just a tsunami was a 100% guarantee of meltdown. .

      No. Plants are designed to withstand normal flooding events, which are very different than a tsunami. They have a design flood level, and they should sited where that flood level cannot be exceeded. But floods do not suddenly deluge a plant and rip apart it's external auxiliaries. A nuclear plant,. when hit by a design basis flooding event, is expected to operate with zero safety problems. That means every safety system operates, and single failure functionality as well as redundancy and separation are maintained.

      Every plant has a list of design basis events it can handle. That includes floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, and more. These plants DO NOT have a tsunami event as a design basis event.

      So, siting a plant that is not designed to be hit by a tsunami in a place where it can be hit by one is not acceptable to me, with or without an elevated backup power source.

    19. Re:There you go again by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      Don't like it? Name the nuclear plant that rolls the complete cost of material mining, refining, plant construction, security, maintenance, insurance, disaster preparedness, decommissioning, and thousands of years of waste storage into the rates it charges to its customers. Of course such a plant is a unicorn.

      Yeah, but no power industry does this. You don't see solar rattling on about silicon extraction, or windpower about magnet rare earth mining costs either.

    20. Re:There you go again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but no power industry does this.

      They don't have to. The worst coal plant on the planet isn't going to be an ongoing hazard a thousand years from now, as opposed to the waste generated from the best nuclear power plant. Wind and solar farms aren't going to require billions in decommission costs least they pose a danger to an entire region of the planet.

      You don't see solar rattling on about silicon extraction, or windpower about magnet rare earth mining costs either.

      As if refined uranium can be picked up at any corner drug store. This is Nuclear Whattaboutery.

    21. Re:There you go again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Well, that is an obvious hit piece

      Obvious hand waiving.

      You just found an article that takes anecdotal statements and couples

      Was TEPCO shortchanging maintenance, and the government of Japan joining them in constantly lying about the disaster, are easy yes-or-no questions. And the answer is Yes to both. Your 401k has a lot invested in their stock, or something?

      Nuclear plants have redundant safety features, even if one is out of service or alignment, there are others to accomplish the job.

      Which does jack if the cooling pipes themselves are ruptured by the quake, no matter how many backup power sources you have. Which was the point of the article you dismissed out of hand. An article that includes specific details, dates and sources.

      There are a million articles out there that claim to 'expose the truth'. But they make claims without providing the basis

      Just because you chose to ignore the basis they provided doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You sound like a tobacco industry exec, brimming with angst in the 80's that anyone is daring to question his religion.

    22. Re:There you go again by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      None of that explains why the article author fails to understand basic fundamental nuclear safety features... but whatever you want to believe I suppose you will.

    23. Re:There you go again by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Says the guy completely ignoring the rupture of coolant lines that weren't caused by the tsunami.

    24. Re:There you go again by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I wan't. But coolant line leaks don't bring a plant down, the main primary system piping stayed intact. They are designed to handle coolant leaks, which some might describe as a 'rupture' but coolant leaks, from valves and fittings and a few other places, happen occasionally during normal operation . An article that completely ignores the size of the leak, and fails to mention the ability for injection and cooling systems that were operational after the quake, is not one you should put any faith into. But you will simply because you want to.

    25. Re:There you go again by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      You don't understand, yet explain like I'm the one that doesn't.

      The plant, in a tsunami zone, was designed such that if it were flooded, there was a 100% chance of a meltdown.

      These plants DO NOT have a tsunami event as a design basis event.

      Yes, it did. It just didn't plan on that large of a tsunami. You are 100% wrong on every point. Where do you get your information?

      with or without an elevated backup power source.

      An elevated power source would mean that it was designed to get hit by and survive a tsunami. It was actually designed to that standard, but didn't expect a tsunami to knock out mains power. Have you ever actually read anything about fukushima, or are you just saying the opposite of what I say?

    26. Re:There you go again by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It was designed to not get hit by a tsunami, meaning it had sea walls and the like. It was designed to get hit by a tsunami, in that the battery room, control room, and 99% of the plant was perfectly fine after a tsunami. The only major system missed was backup power. The plant was tsunami hardened, but wasn't hardened against power loss.

      You seem to not understand the basics of fukushima. Yet are pretending to be an expert online. What a https://www.penny-arcade.com/c...

    27. Re:There you go again by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      No, it was not designed to be hit by a tsunami, which is why they built a wall trying to prevent from being hit by one. If was designed to be hit by a tsunami, they would not have built a wall.

      It should never have been put there, with or without elevated tanks.

    28. Re:There you go again by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      The sea wall is not part of the plant design. It was there to prevent the plant, which was not designed to be hit by a tsunami, from being hit by one. I'm not sure how that is so hard to understand.

      GE designed the plant, they did not design the sea wall or decide it's height.

  25. Better title... by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    Living In London As Bad As Living In Nuclear Fallout Zone

    Where is the sensationalism when you want it? ;)

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:Better title... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "Living in London No Better than Living in Nuclear Fallout Zone"? ;)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  26. Ford Edsel by edittard · · Score: 1

    So you might die, and it would cost somebody his bonus to prevent that.

    It's the Ford Edsel all over again.

    --
    At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
  27. Re:News flash: Nuclear is dead by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    At least until cold fusion. Which may never come.

  28. This should come as no surprise. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    London is no fit place for humans to live.

  29. Not true by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    Real estate prices would be way lower than London.

  30. Horse Pucky! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I definintely don't trust the official Fukushima radiation numbers, especially as they have been revised upwards, and dramatically, many times. Measurements were being taken at the scale limits of some of the equipment, and some of the radiation monitoring equipment was actually damaged by the radiation, rendering the measutrements inaccurate. Pools of radioactive black dust were found in Tokyo, but officially dismissed. Blue beams resulting from ongoing uncontrolled fission were also sometimes seen by eyewitnesses, but again officially, it never happened. The exposure numbers being referenced for mortality estimates are inevitably for external exposures, and thus greatly underrepresent the effects from actual ingestion of radiation sources. Also even if the official numbers were somehow hypothetically correct, and even if they could have been known at the time, the decision to relocate would have been a necessary precaution anyway, as the uncertainty was still high regarding the possibility of stabilizing the reactors & holding ponds.

  31. Fuck! I need to get out of LONDON! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I mean I know London is fucked with brexit.... but I didnâ(TM)t know it was THIS FUCKED!

    1. Re: Fuck! I need to get out of LONDON! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah Bro.... the folks at fukushima have less to deal with than London.

      I think enough is enough... Iâ(TM)m gonna move to Chernobyl. I hear they have more jobs there too.

    2. Re:Fuck! I need to get out of LONDON! by mikael · · Score: 1

      Any large city will have problems with smog, nitrous oxides and diesel soot (small particles that can settle in your lungs). Then there's stress due to being caught up in traffic and living in high density. Other environmental hazards include the dust from open top trucks transporting demolition materials from house conversions; wood dust, chipboards, plaster dust. All that just gets blown into the air as the truck goes over the bumps and dips in the roads. I'd see them rumbling along the roads leaving a dust trail behind them. Houses on those streets had the lowest prices in the city.

      One of the people in my workplace used to ride a bicycle to get to work. When he arrived, he'd have so much diesel soot on his face, he looked like a World War I pilot.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  32. living in the past by Invalidator · · Score: 1

    When nuclear power competed against oil and coal, it had an advantage. But now it competes against wind and sun, and costs many times what those other and newer technologies cost. It has lost any advantage it may once have had and no offers only danger on a huge scale. No thanks.

    --

    ~_~ Not tonight, dear, I have a modem.

  33. Maybe the regulations could stop an accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But it didn't. So I don't get why you whine about what regulation removal would do to make nuclear cheaper. Oh, hang on, I do. Party politics hippies and lefties like renewables so you hate them.

  34. People injected with plutonium, none died from it by raymorris · · Score: 4, Informative

    > The most dangerous material around Chernobyl is Plutonium.
    > If it gets into your organism, you most certainly die due to it.

    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. Plutonium is dangerous, and as far as we know it's never killed anyone. It seems that inhaling plutonium dust is more dangerous than ingesting it, because it's suspected that inhaling plutonium increases the risk of lung cancer. Without any known deaths from either it's hard to quantify that, though. There were about 25 workers from Los Alamos National Laboratory who inhaled a considerable amount of plutonium dust during 1940s. There has not been a single lung cancer among them. Albert Stevens had the highest dose of plutonium ever, having been injected with it in the 1940s. He lived to 79 years old, when he died of heart failure.

  35. They had to evacuate the entire continent? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > Before someone says it, the initial evacuation could not have been avoided. There was no way to know how bad the situation was going to get.

    Did they have to evacuate the entire continent immediately? Obviously no. Was it unavoidable that they evacuate everyone with 500 miles, within 24 hours? Nope, they didn't do that either. 50 miles? 5 miles? 1 mile? It was prudent to temporarily evacuate the people within 2 miles of the plant fairly quickly. Nothing about it was "unavoidable", who to evacuate when, for how long, was all judgement calls based on both safety and PR.

    1. Re:They had to evacuate the entire continent? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      If the wind had blown in the other direction then the evacuation would have been inadequate. They were lucky.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:They had to evacuate the entire continent? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nothing about it was "unavoidable", who to evacuate when, for how long, was all judgement calls based on both safety and PR.

      It is fascinating how some slashdotters know for certain that every single thing that happened was well known at the time. That all future events went exactly to plan.

      Wind direction. What exactly caused plant 1 to explode? Then plant 4. What credibility should be placed on where you get your information? You have the double whammy of a huge amount of destruction caused by the tsunami.

      Then you are an official who makes the decision. You know that if you make the decision to shelter in place, and the situation gets worse and many people die because if your decision, you may end up having the rest of your life completely destroyed, if not end up in prison, or in some countries, you are executed.

      Unlike random people on Slashdot, most officials in these matters have to make decisions based upon a whole lot less situational awareness than they would like. So you make a decision based on what you do know. Unfortunately, they are not know it alls.

      So pissing off bean counters is a lot less of a price to pay.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  36. Would professor Thomas stay in an NDFZ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the answer is no, then I suggest we eject him from the planet to see if he survives in space as statistically long as predicted.

  37. None of the biosphere considers it food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And nope, it's not labelled toxic, it's a pollutant, same as your shit which some bacteria and other microorganisms DO consider food. And which you're full of. retard.

  38. Everybody dies by shayd2 · · Score: 1
    Life on Earth is 100% fatal

    We need a conversation about the value of ONE human life

  39. Yup, no problem with that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Or with living under a solar panel. So when you moving to chernobyl, fuckstain?

    (oh, by the way, unless you're being told to live in a uranium mine, why the fuck do you demand solar panel proponents live in mines, shitforbrains?)

  40. Re:People injected with plutonium, none died from by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Perhaps he's getting confused with Polonium?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  41. What would Professor Philip Thomas Do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe Professor Thomas would get the heck out of the radiation zone as quickly as possible!
    Duh...

  42. So the quality of that life does not matter? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    People with permanent radiation poisoning can actually get pretty old. It is just not fun at all. If the primary metric is age at time of death, then that metric is spectacularly unsuitable. This looks far more like just one more attempts of the nuclear apologists to demonstrate that nuclear is actually very safe. It is not, at least not as practiced by the greedy scum currently in control of that industry.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  43. a proposal by Cederic · · Score: 1

    Could we compromise and nuke London?

    1. Re:a proposal by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      Could we compromise and nuke London?

      I'd start with North Korea but that's just me I guess

      --
      We'll make great pets
  44. They're important but misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you never turn on an old diesel generator except when the grid is down and you need lights, it has 100% CF, yet only runs a couple of times a year for a few hours. The USA gets 90% CF from nuclear because they shut them down regularly and do maintenance then, or if there's a non-critical problem, they keep running with the problem until the next downtime schedule, therefore where other countries get 60% CF because they shut down and count that shutdown as unavailable for 20% of the time and don't count scheduled outage as not available. When the USA uses new designs, they don't know when it will need to be taken offline and will take it offline for longer to fix because they don't know how best to fix it, and their CF drops to the 60-70% mark too.

    1. Re:They're important but misleading by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Define CF? Based on your post, I don't think you can.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:They're important but misleading by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      You have two diesel generators.
      One is running 24h/365d with varying load between 85% and 95% and occasionally 100%, it has a CF of perhaps 90%.
      You have a second one, same brand, same capabilities, you run it 1 day a year with 100% output it has something like 1/365 CF ... something like 0.003 CF.

      Do you get now what a CF is? I don't guess so ...

      If you have a country that is run only by nuclear power, but your load varies over the day from 40% (of daytime max) at night to 100% (at daytime), then more than half of your plants can not run with full power. Hence they don't have a CF of 90% or more, but just 20% or 40% or even less.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    3. Re:They're important but misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capacity Factor can be used in various ways and it is important to be clear on how one is using the term. You can use a maximum capacity factor to compare different technologies, for instance, in which each source is assumed to produce as much energy as it can over a time period (1 year) if it is producing power as much as it possibly can. This is also an indicator of how available the source can be. Historical Capacity Factors of given generators can be measured and compared against the maximum, or simply as an indicator of usage in a given system.

      It is quite useful when determining potential production value of a generator or actual value of existing assets.

      The key part is being clear on how you are using it, and if you are talking about capability or actual usage.

  45. Statistics by XSportSeeker · · Score: 1

    Statistically speaking, we could solve a big part of the climate change problem if we just killed off half of the world's population.

    Policies and decision making cannot be based on statistics alone professor.

    1. Re:Statistics by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      Statistically speaking, we could solve a big part of the climate change problem if we just killed off half of the world's population.

      Starting with all the religious warmongers. Peace on Earth and Good will towards men might be an actual possibility then.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    2. Re:Statistics by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      Oddly, if you based your euthanizing decision ( which is itself warmongering, you'd need force of arms to pursue it effectively) on religion, the anti- religion would become sort of a religion of it's own.
      In other words: you'd end up becoming a religious warmonger in doing it.

  46. Re:People injected with plutonium, none died from by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    > The most dangerous material around Chernobyl is Plutonium. > If it gets into your organism, you most certainly die due to it.

    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. Plutonium is dangerous, and as far as we know it's never killed anyone.

    The Japanese might not agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  47. ... while burning coal ... that is radioactive too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Most people don't seem to realize that, but coal plants put out a lot more radiation that operating nuclear plants!
    Because natural coal contains quite a few radioactive isotopes, which then goes out the chimneys.
    You can literally map cancer rates to the distance from coal plants, most of the time!

    Yes, if nuclear plants go bad, they fuck up everything. That's still true.
    But coal plants slowly fuck up everything in normal operation!

  48. Nuclear energy related radiation vs radon exposure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alpha radiation exposure from radon gas seeping into apartements and houses is much bigger issue than any other radiation related problem in Finland. Relocation within the country would change the background radiation exposure levels from uranium bearing minerals. Somehow this does not seem to be an issue at al. Any mention of nuclear energy related radiation is a valid reason for panic, at least according to local Green party.

  49. The author mentions that. Learn for the future by raymorris · · Score: 1

    The author of the paper makes sure to mention that up front - it's not meant to be critical of officials at the time. It intended to provide another piece of information that officials can use when considering whether to order an evacuation when something happens in the future. During Hurricane Irma, for example, officials in Florida ordered mandatory evacuations only for the coast, which was the most dangerous place to be. Most of Florida was not evacuated because officials had learned that evacuation orders themselves cause problems and should not be made unnecessarily.

  50. J-Value by zifn4b · · Score: 1

    The J-value is a new method pioneered by Professor Thomas that assesses how much should be spent to protect human life and the environment.

    The environment is probably a better long term investment than human stupidity. We should split them into two values and weight the environment heavier.

    --
    We'll make great pets
  51. Not sure what that has to do with my comment by raymorris · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what your comment has to do with mine. Of course you don't know everything ahead of time, decision makers make judgement calls based on the available information (and hopefully contingency plans made ahead o time). Judgement calls. Unlike what GP claims, over-reacting is neither required nor particularly frequent. "Limited information" does not mean you must evacuate the whole country, or any specific geographic area.

    What we teach mayors, city managers, and other decision makers is that *because* there is limited information available when an incident occurs, and limited time for discussion and deliberation, you'll likely be far better off if you have some template contingency plans in place ahead of, and in many cases it's good for those plans to have degrees or stages. If you're an official in Florida, or anywhere along the east coast, you should have hurricane plans ready BEFORE hurricane season, when you have time to discuss and plan carefully. Those plans should have triggers assigned ahead of time "when a category 3 storm is 300 miles away, activate chapter 4 of this plan". All cities, states, and countries should have generic "evacuate an area" plans, because all may have something happen that requires an evacuation. (We teach disaster preparedness to government officials at TEEX). In our courses, we have the responsible parties practice the plans, then watch themselves on the video and phone recordings and see what they could improve. Most think they passed along information that they never actually said, that's a very common error.

    Ten years after Chernobyl, thousands of people who had been forcibly evacuated still didn't have new homes. That's a failure of planning. The government should have had in place plans to be able to house people affected by some sort of emergency.

    That some sort of evacuation might be needed in some part of the country was entirely predictable. The failure wasn't caused by lack of information during the event. They had years before and after to figure out how to house people affected by some sort of disaster.

    1. Re:Not sure what that has to do with my comment by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what your comment has to do with mine. Of course you don't know everything ahead of time, decision makers make judgement calls based on the available information (and hopefully contingency plans made ahead o time). Judgement calls. Unlike what GP claims, over-reacting is neither required nor particularly frequent. "Limited information" does not mean you must evacuate the whole country, or any specific geographic area.

      That's a fine slippery slope we have here. The people making decisions almost certainly don't have evacuation of the entire country in mind - I mean, how would that even be done?

      Regardless here is the assessment from another group http://www.world-nuclear.org/i...

      They estimate possibly 1000 deaths had the area not been evacuated. Slashdotters can either declare this fake news or believe that 1000 deaths were worth the savings in money.

      But how would one even tell? Being that the whole thing is conjecture? Here on Slashdot we are blessed with instantly knowing, based on our outlook.

      If you're an official in Florida, or anywhere along the east coast, you should have hurricane plans ready BEFORE hurricane season, when you have time to discuss and plan carefully. Those plans should have triggers assigned ahead of time "when a category 3 storm is 300 miles away, activate chapter 4 of this plan".

      The best part of that scenario is that we have a lot of experience with hurricanes, and that given the different strengths, storm surges and even the time it hits land relative to high or low tide, you have a much better idea of the path of destruction. The unknowns are the exact location of landfall, and the details.

      With a unplanned powerplant excursion, much less is known. In addition, there is often a veracity problem where many do not believe what they are told. Now if we take say the Fukushima misadventure, the original evacuation order was for 3 kilometers around the plant at 9 p.m. on March 11 after the emergency core cooling system mostly failed.

      Then on the 12th, after the emergency batteries ran out on reactor 3, and the fuel rods are exposed, and it started venting steam, the evacuatino zone was extended to 6 kilometers, then 20 kilometers.

      On the 25th, the evacuation zone was made voluntary between 20 and 30 kilometers.

      In the meantime, on the 14th, Reactor 3 suffers an explosion that damages reactor number 2's cooling system. Then on the 15th Reactor 4 has an explosion, and number 3 suffers a second explosion. Unit's 2 and 3 have white smoke issiung form them.

      Now explain exactly how the people in charge over reacted. All cities, states, and countries should have generic "evacuate an area" plans, because all may have something happen that requires an evacuation. (We teach disaster preparedness to government officials at TEEX). In our courses, we have the responsible parties practice the plans, then watch themselves on the video and phone recordings and see what they could improve. Most think they passed along information that they never actually said, that's a very common error.

      Ten years after Chernobyl, thousands of people who had been forcibly evacuated still didn't have new homes. That's a failure of planning. The government should have had in place plans to be able to house people affected by some sort of emergency.

      That some sort of evacuation might be needed in some part of the country was entirely predictable. The failure wasn't caused by lack of information during the event. They had years before and after to figure out how to house people affected by some sort of disaster.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  52. idiot by guygo · · Score: 1

    The author is correct if one doesn't take ANY humanity into account. I'm sure it is less disruptive to society for a few families to watch their children slowly die of radiation poisoning. However, I doubt any of those families would agree with the author. Perhaps they should try it themselves?

  53. Clickbait version of headline by xenog · · Score: 1

    London Determined to be Just as Bad as Nuclear Disaster Fallout Zone

  54. European cities are worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Has the author ever been to Paris? Now that is a real shit hole.

    1. Re:European cities are worse by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Paris is a beautiful city. Pariasns are festering assholes that make Massholes seem relatively nice.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  55. Re:Islam no go zones are as bad as nuclear fallout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wholeheartedly agree, but these are both part and parcel of living in Londinistan.

    Go ahead. Give me yet another reason not to visit London. I dare you!

  56. Normalizing Nuclear War.... neat! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are stories that Trump doesn't understand nuclear capabilities and actually wanted America do have the biggest and classiest nuclear arsenal ever.

    Stories like this would seem to be PR to prep people for possible nuclear devices used on battlefields or even a missile strike.

    "Oh, I read on the Slashdot's that nukes aren't any worse than herpes".

    And yes, there are people who think "what good are nukes if we don't use them", including, according to reports, Trump.

  57. Re:... while burning coal ... that is radioactive by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Most of the radioisotopes from a coal plant are in the bottom ash. Which is only not toxic waste by act of congress. Bottom ash is technically uranium ore, it could be economic to extract.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  58. I did. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Based on your post, I don't think you can read.

    1. Re:I did. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You clearly don't know what CF is, but are posting about it?

      An emergency backup unit that runs a couple of times/year does not have a 100% CF. CF is a simple metric. Look it up, it will save you from looking like a moron in future. Too late for today.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  59. UK life expectancy stats just muddy the issue by Dusty101 · · Score: 1

    For comparison, the average Londoner loses four and a half months to air pollution, while the average resident of Manchester lives 3.3 years less than his/her counterpart in Harrow, North London. Meanwhile, boys born in Blackpool lose 8.6 years of life on average compared with those born in London's borough of Kensington and Chelsea.

    These comparison statistics are probably largely irrelevant to the main point of the article. They're much more likely to just be a reflection of how decades of London-centric central government policies have resulted in prolonged neglect of the already-poorer provinces of the UK. This neglect has led to increased poverty, poorer public education, health and healthcare standards.

    It may indeed be possible to make a case that such environmental and cultural differences are of much greater comparative significance than local radioactive fallout. However, the way they're used in the summary is almost certainly misleading to those unfamiliar with the wealth gap between London and much of the rest of the UK (particularly Scotland and the north of England). A US analogy would be something like directly comparing (e.g.) Detroit to Manhattan.

  60. No by fatmatt_oz · · Score: 1

    Just a note about how life expectancy calculations work. I'm 47, my life expectancy now is +9 years higher than it was when I was 10 because of the mass of young men who die young. I've got a fairly simple rule for this sort of guff, does it sound like a good idea? Radiation leak = dangerous = reduce danger by moving people away. Yeah, makes sense vs some guy in the UK came up with an equation that quantifies how many people we should move and places a $ value of life. A whole heap of issues with this.

  61. You First, Professor! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm struck by a couple of points.

    1). There's the "Of course this won't affect me" implication by the good Professor;
    2). You cannot control where people live in a free society. Are we declaring Martial Law to enforce these J-values now?
    3). Living in an urban center has benefits for the citizen, benefits that may make accepting pollution an acceptable tradeoff. I won't address the matter of the citizen shortening their life because I don't think that the average citizen will think in those terms. Now let's get to the real issue here. What, exactly, are the benefits of living in a nuclear contamination zone? Gee, now that we put that on the table, nothing comes to mind;
    4). How can the Professor say "Remediation should be the watchword..." without quantifying the radiation exposure? Which depends on the size of the spill, the weather patterns, and the specific radioactive contaminants?

    Yeah, how about you stay in the contamination zone, Professor! Anyone who has a choice might decide that their control over their circumstances is more important than your J-values.

  62. Actually this points to the real problem... by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

    The real problem is not how to manage life expectancy in the event of an accident. The real problem is the fact that living in post modern industrialized cities is killing us.

    --

    Lodragan Draoidh
    The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
  63. Should have seen this coming by Shogun37 · · Score: 1

    "We don't want to relocate poor people who live in areas we screwed up." Film at 11.

  64. Re:People injected with plutonium, none died from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your assertion is blatantly false.

    https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/atomic-accidents

  65. Wait... You mean... by azbot · · Score: 1

    Living in London is no better than living in a nuclear disaster fallout zone?

  66. Why is this even a question? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is one of the most infuriating topics for me...

    I have always felt that to choose the lesser of two evils is truly akin to simply choosing evil; This is a perfect example of a lack of creativity.

    Its sheer madness to say "Oh hey, its going to be too much work to deal with moving people out of an unsafe place because it is now contaminated with radiologicals so lets just clean up while people live there, it'll be fiiiiiine"

    I mean, how about just not with the nuclear stuff already... If its deadly and it takes thousands of years in some cases to neutralize itself and the for-profit organizations that run them cut corners.... .... The whole thing is a recipe for catastrophe of truly biblical proportions!

    If you have a solution for a problem which requires a relatively huge amount of planning and then ongoing oversight just to ensure it cant see open air, let alone the rest of it all... and then have this be maintained by a system which by its very operation creates potential for catastrophic failure, in some cases on a global scale. I would say you were a psychopath.

    So if you're asking the question "Should we evacuate people in the face of toxic radiological fallout... think of the stress it will cause them..... And the cost... Ahem" Perhaps we should be thinking about a solution which doesn't present the risk for annihilating the planet as a side effect.

    How about a solution which helps to promote and foster life on this planet as a side effect?

    We are not simply individuals, we are members of a species. Our species exists within a window in time wherein we have the unprecedented capability of deciding when said window will close. Presently we have institutional systems on a global scale which work against not only our survival but that of every species on this planet. Like the mouse who chooses heroin over food until it starves to death we are misguided in our global efforts.