Exhausted Amazon Drivers Are Working 11-Hour Shifts For Less Than Minimum Wage (mirror.co.uk)

schwit1 quotes the Daily Mirror: Drivers are being asked to deliver up to 200 parcels a day for Amazon while earning less than the minimum wage, a Sunday Mirror investigation reveals today... Many routinely exceed the legal maximum shift of 11 hours and finish their days dead on their feet. Yet they have so little time for food or toilet stops they snatch hurried meals on the run and urinate into plastic bottles they keep in their vans. They say they often break speed limits to meet targets that take no account of delays such as ice, traffic jams or road closures.

Many claim they are employed in a way that means they have no rights to holiday or sickness pay. And some say they take home as little as £160 for a five-day week amid conditions described by one lawyer as "almost Dickensian"... The Driving and Vehicle Standards Agency has vowed to investigate after drivers contacted them to complain about conditions.

Comments

MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Making Amazon Great Again

Nobody's got a gun to their heads... America is at 4% unemployment. Get a better job, assholes.

Re:MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Another dipshit who didn't read the summary, let alone the article. It's about Great Britain...asshole

Re: MAGA

[fluffernutter]

These people are obviously desperate for a job for some reason. Don't pretend like anyone can be a candidate for any job that is available. It doesn't mean they should have to starve, or conmit crimes to make christmas bearable.

Re:MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

s/asshole/arsehole/g

Re:MAGA

[Bert64]

Britain also has fairly low unemployment, lower infact (according to google US is 4.3% and uk is at 4.2%), and the uk has a much more generous welfare system for those who don't want to work.

Re:MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about Great Britain...asshole

As if anyone cares about The Great Police State...

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

That's their own fault. If they were awesome like cayenne8 or superkendall they could have any job they want. I'm so great that people pay ME to let them work for me on my POS/ERP system which is so awesome nobody's ever heard of it.
--
roman_muh

Re:MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to work.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

US unemployment rate is 4.1%.

Re:MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't make yourself available for work, and demonstrate attempts to work then you are likely to get your benefits stopped in the UK. Benefits, even if you are, and among the least generous in Europe.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? Yes we have a surveillance problem, but our police don't go round killing civilians on a whim.

Re: MAGA

[MoarSauce123]

It also matters how unemployment is counted. In the US the number is severely skewed in favor of those in office. Those who sign up for such jobs typically have not much else to chose from. More opportunity comes from more education and that is in most places getting prohibitively expensive. As far as the UK goes, once they brexited and the economy tanks worse than during Thatcher's time the number of people who can afford ordering crap on Amazon will go down drastically.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Jean Charles de Menezes might have disagreed with that statement. Better than the United States, but not good enough to brag about.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

These people are obviously desperate for a job for some reason. Don't pretend like anyone can be a candidate for any job that is available. It doesn't mean they should have to starve, or conmit crimes to make christmas bearable.

Yeah, because driving around delivering packages is such a brutal job. GMAFB.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Jean Charles de Menezes might have disagreed with that statement. Better than the United States, but not good enough to brag about.

Yeah, that was pretty a pretty pathetic event, but is that the only one you can recall or find? And that was - how long ago? Compare that to just the second half of this year in the US...
Mind you (I'm from Australia) the Victorian Police seemed to be taking a shot (poor-taste pun) at the title a little while back.

Re: MAGA

[fluffernutter]

Any job in which you make less than you need to live is brutal.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Any job in which you make less than you need to live is brutal.

So why do people voluntarily take some jobs to make extra cash even though they can live without it? Why do teenagers work jobs even though their parents can afford to pay for their needs?

Re: MAGA

[Zero__Kelvin]

0.0% since 4 percent means 4 in 100 people can't find work already. What do you suppose will happen to the numbers if everyone who has a less than ideal job quits and refuses to take any less than ideal jobs? You don't seem to realize that most people would rather have a great job, but have to decide if they want to be able to survive and feed themselves and their family or try to live in a perfect world with the perfect job.

Re: MAGA

[Zero__Kelvin]

Mom I need money for more booze and weed usually gets a "no".

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

you just gobble up that geek cock don't you - gobble gobble

Re: MAGA

[ColdWetDog]

'Cuz you're doing it wrong - it's hookers and blow.

Re:MAGA

[DivineKnight]

Just be wealthy, and that won't be a problem.

Re: MAGA

[I'm New Around Here]

He's such a noob.

Re: MAGA

[Calydor]

Going through rush hour traffic every single day, dealing with road rage, near-misses, all the time with an unforgiving schedule that doesn't let you deliver just 180 parcels that day.

For less than minimum wage.

Yeah, that does fit the definition of a brutal job.

Re: MAGA

[Wycliffe]

It doesn't work that way. It can't go to zero as unemployment includes people who voluntarily quit their job to move, look for a new job, etc. Unemployment is currently lower than what economists once predicted was the lowest it could possibly go. One reason it might be so low is because employed people are lining up their new job before quitting their old job. Also, unemployment doesn't include the underemployed or the people not looking for work. i.e. The people who have given up searching.

Re: MAGA

[penandpaper]

I dream of a society where ever teenager can buy hookers and blow with their own money without asking for mom or dad to raise their allowance!

Re: MAGA

[rally2xs]

What needs to change is not the unemployment rate, it is the wage rate. There's no point in leaving a $10/hr job for another $10/hr job, and that's the sort that's being created now.

After the tax cut, the corporate taxes will be 20% instead of 35%, and corps will be able to make money in the USA, instead of sending the manufacturing to Mexico, Canada, Korea, Japan, and anywhere-but-here. Then the $10 / hr Walmart or McDonald's guy is going to hear some big-business guy say, "$10/hr? Piffle? Wanna make some real money? We're starting at $15/hr, and just complete this 2 year training, and you'll be making $30" and that will be how wages go up.

The McD's and the Walmarts are going to have to boost their $10/hr to $20/hr and attract those for which the smell of hot oil and metal shaving is a turn-off, and they'll accept $10 / hr less than the factories, but overall, the labor rate is going to go up. It may be a while - the manufacturing plants are going to have to be built (although the CONSTRUCTION companies for those are going to be paying good money too) and the economy is going to have start making a much greater portion of the world's goods, but eventually the factories and the Walmarts and the McD's will have sucked as many people off their couches and out from behind their soap operas so that... there's fewer and fewer people left to hire. But the demand for labor will continue to rise, there will be a labor shortage, and then watch wages sprout rocket engines.

All this would happen much faster with the Fairtax, but this 20% rate is a great start.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

At least you lead in acid attacks! Thatâ(TM)s something to be proud of, right?

Re:MAGA

[SpaghettiPattern]

...for those who don't want to work.

Buddy you should brush up on your rhetoric figures of speech and avoid alienation of readers.

I work very hard and I am being well paid and I should agree with you and join you in your rant against unwilling freeloaders. But I don't. I find your writing unnecessary hurtful.

Re: MAGA

[DivineKnight]

You know, when you to assemble something, and you have a few pieces (like screws) left over, it's not that you're a genius, and those parts were unnecessary (usually).

I imagine something similar with the employment issue...chronic unemployment issues speaks of a bigger problem, perhaps of some people with an obtuse vision of how things ought to be.

Re: MAGA

[Bruha]

Delusions of grandeur much?

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Sending manufacturing to Japan or Korea??? Are you an idiot???

Re: MAGA

[LostMyBeaver]

i don't think it's desperation. It's the classic rule that the people who put the least effort into getting their jobs are the people who will work the hardest for the least amount of compensation.

McDonalds for example hires most of their employees by posting a sign on the door saying "no hiring" at which point you see the people behind the counter and see the standards for what they'll hire are about the same as you are...and you fill out an application and unless $20 background search on you turns up something awful, it's time to start training you. Then they'll work you to death, see you as easily replaceable and for the most part would prefer you don't make it through a trial phase as then you might be difficult to fire.

Consider the classic case of the "job creation economy". People voted for Trump and many other politicians over the promises of jobs. I've never ever taken a job which was created as a political promise and in most cases could not be tracked back to government stimulus. But there are a massive number of jobs which exist to deliver jobs to the people. Most people have classically been against immigrant workers because they believe their jobs are being taken by people flooding in to steel them. But those jobs are generally taken by people who actively apply for them.

Automotive, manufacturing, coal, gas, etc... even building space craft and airplanes at Lockheed and co... are all jobs which were created to advertise to the people in one area or another that all they really need to do is show up and they'll have a job.

Most people of the world do not know how to look for jobs. Many people simply don't realize that the jobs are there if they want them or ask the right way. If you want a job and you have an interest in doing something, more often than not, you can find someone to pay you for it. There's also the issue of wanted advertisements in the newspaper (or wherever else). They are almost always written in a concise fashion which scares away 99% of their qualified candidates. You can't just write "We're willing to pay good money for honest people willing to work hard... call 555-1234". They list educational requirements and all kinds of other crap... when they really just need people. But by making it too professional, people will end up working for $5 an hour while sweating the entire time and risking death on greasy floors while paying for expensive work clothes and shoes because someone else was smart enough to keep it simple and write "Help wanted" on a sign.

Most people want to work. If for no other reason but it allows them to have more to their life than just what is on the couch and on the TV. It provides them with a social experience. They don't however want to look for work.

What is worse is that it's clear that Amazon apparently believed they were paying a company enough money to provide these people a good living and making it worth it to them to work hard. Instead, that company was placing their employees in a scenario nearing indentured servitude. They were even charging the guys for the car rental and the fuel.

Amazon should be held accountable for not performing research into their associate companies. They need to ensure they only work with companies who actually are treating their employees at least reasonably. On the other hand, they can't possibly be expected to run their own delivery companies for every single little village out there. It's better to try and find honest people who are willing to hire and manage good people. This makes it so that everyone benefits. If Amazon managed the drivers themselves, those drivers would just be another number in a database. By using courier companies, there is a good chance the owner of the company will take a personal interest in the welfare of his employees.

Re: MAGA

[LostMyBeaver]

You should seriously try it.

I haven't, but I've laid bricks, shoveled ditches, built circuit boards, etc... I even held a "Slow/Stop" sign for 10 hours in Florida summer heat at a construction site.

I think it taught me a few important things in life. And I never did those things for more then a few days each. I did learn to respect the people around me. I also learned that what was easy for me wasn't always easy for other people.

As for the driving and delivering packages.... you'd be absolutely shocked how much work that really is.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably Chinese.

Re: MAGA

[Mashiki]

The McD's and the Walmarts are going to have to boost their $10/hr to $20/hr and attract those for which the smell of hot oil and metal shaving is a turn-off

Can tell you're pretty messed up already. Those are the two greatest smells in the world, right beside the smell of heavy axle grease and the "almond" smell of CO from a properly running car.

Go work a trade.

Re:MAGA

[Maritz]

If by 'much more generous' you mean you won't have to starve, and you'll have a roof over your head, that's probably true.

Re: MAGA

[rally2xs]

Happened a long time ago when US manufacturers closed plant after plant, and those plant's outputs were replaced by foreign cars from Japan and Korea. Not exactly "sending" the factories to Japan or Korea, but essentially works the same. If a US company is driven out of business by lower-taxed foreign manufacturers, and the demand for product replaced by product made somewhere besides the USA, its the same thing as "sending" that manufacturing out of the country.

Re:MAGA

[rally2xs]

Yeah, you just keep applying for work you know you're never going to get if you don't really want to work. But its been easier the last few decades as there really hasn't been any work to find. They don't force you out of your labor category - they don't make lab technicians apply for heavy equipment operator jobs - so if there are no lab tech jobs, there are no lab tech jobs in spite of the construction of the new interstate highway exchange going on within sight of the unemployment office.

And when the unemployment reaches its time limit, you get booted off. Get a job or starve. Well, the OTHER dodge is the welfare system, and particularly there is the "disability" social security benefit that allows people to basically go on public assistance forever, because they supposedly have a bad back or somesuch. Some of these people eventually get noticed in Facebook videos the like cutting a mean rug at a dance, and their medical disqualification from working gets disqualified.

Its not that they are all lazy, either, its just that they really can't find work, or the "work" is idiotically low-pay. I mean, if you can make $X in a disability benefits scam, but can find jobs that only pay 85% of X, why bother? Getting the wages boosted so that the job is paying $1.2X is what we need, and the lower taxes that bring back manufacturing to the USA is one of the best ways to do it.

Re:MAGA

[rally2xs]

You're worrying about hurting the feelings of the lazy who instead choose to effectively steal from the public to live while contributing nothing? Bless your heart...

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah even here in Sweden you need to apply to all availible jobbs or you get silch. Also the rules got updated so you need to apply for everything over the whole country.

The result is that companies dont tell the jobb office when they have availble positions becus they get overrun by under qualified People.

Now they use private headhunting firms instead.

Re: MAGA

[Charcharodon]

"People" aren't exactly smart and may not have many options.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Maybe they should have applied themselves in the past so they could have a better job in the present.

Re: MAGA

[Custard Horse]

It's a worldwide problem - http://www.asti.org.uk/a-world... - but yeah, the UK has a problem along with stabbings as firearms aren't widely available.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? Yes we have a surveillance problem, but our police don't go round killing civilians on a whim.

You forgot:

Get stabbed in the street by muslem problem

Get arrested and prosecuted for saying slightly hateful things on facebook problem

Get raped problem

"Explosions are part and parcel of living in a large city" problem

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked as a teenager (eons ago). My parents were not in a financial situation to be able to simply provide me with a vehicle when I graduated high school, which is necessary when one lives outside the city or in a city with horrible public transportation (I carpooled with someone else that worked there). I got a used Fairmount and rebuilt the transmission: it worked until a few months after I saved up enough to put a down-payment on a better used-vehicle along with enough money for the next terms tuition, books, and fees.

As far as the jobs themselves, they were typically pure commission which did mean on average less than minimal wage. While not necessarily fair in the minimal wage sense, it was (just barely) enough to save and still throw some money towards the household expenses. Of course, once I graduated and had independent transpiration, I got a pair of minimal wage full-time jobs since the price of books was (and probably still is) insane so as to have a more predictable income.

I had participated in a form of "gig work" before it got the press, fortunately my employer was the friendlier sort that gave me proper breaks and even bought everyone there lunch a few times a week (it was a relatively small business, so still possible). I am not sure of British standards, but if there is not enough attrition to make Amazon think twice (since training has its own costs), there must be enough desperate unemployed or underemployed people to not quit from unreasonable terms/tasks which suggests deeper issues. While I would normally say to fix the underlying problem, I think it is worth looking at putting an band-aid on the symptom. Perhaps defining a specific class of contract work where the employed contract party is an individual and the terms of contract are defined primarily by the hiring party, then either extending traditional employment rights to them or in the case a traditional model does not fit maybe add some minor regulation on hours worked and compensation models. In either case, add improved means of filing grievances with a grant to the handling department the the authority and manpower to actually investigate and respond appropriately to such filed complaints in a timely manner I'm not one for government regulation, but if there is a problem, sometimes its for the best. It also adds room for a bit of a job factory. I've suggested similar for the US previously.

Re:MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Jackass, the resident Progressives here are making it about the USA. See the comments above.

Re:MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought we called those people executives?

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

It will be long wait for the UK economy to tank in spite of the feverish sweaty predictions of the mass media and the clueless.

Re:MAGA

[SpaghettiPattern]

You're worrying about hurting the feelings of the lazy who instead choose to effectively steal from the public to live while contributing nothing? Bless your heart...

The reality is most likely that more decent people have already told you something similar to what I did. And that you still are trying to figure out what the heck they meant. You sound like a tough cooky in need of attention. Go out on a limb and do something nice to someone, anyone, and a first step is set.

Re: MAGA

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US social security disability pays max of around 14k a year. I don't know any fulltime work that pays 85% of that X.

Re: MAGA

[kenh]

$14K is full-time employment at minimum wage, after taxes.

Once you 'earn' SS Disability, that is a key that unlocks other benefits - SNAP, housing assistance, free medical care, etc. the average disability claimant receive more total assistance than the average worker in many states.

Re: MAGA

[kenh]

No, that isn't the definition of a brutal job, that's called a low-paying job, and the problem these workers have is they fail to realize they are doing piece work as a sub-contractor, literally working for themselves, and they don't understand the economics of the business they entered into. They go out, lease a truck, take out insurance, fill the truck with petrol, then agree to deliver packages at below-cost rates, hoping to overcome the deficit by taking on delivery of ever more packages.

If you are losing money per package, taking on more packages doesn't change the math.

Why is this so cheap?

[pablo_max]

Something you will never hear an American ask themselves.

Generally speaking, when you are buying so much "shit" for so much cheaper than the rest of the world, there is a good chance that this is only possible because a lot of people down the line are being fucked.
But hey... cheap tv for you so who give a fuck, am i right?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. You are right.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

What does this have to do with Americans? Or do you just like to take cheap shots at your fellow countrymen?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[93 Escort Wagon]

I think that’s probably true for quite a few Americans; but by no means all of them. However if stereotyping makes you fell better, who am I to judge?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[MikeDataLink]

Except this article is talking about Amazon in the UK, not the USA. Good job RTFAing...

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[fluffernutter]

If there were common options that were local but slightly more expensive, then I would ask why it is so cheap. On the other hand, why should I go out of my way to spend more?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Desler]

Because you think US Amazon drivers are treated any better? You’re joking, right?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that Amazon packages are delivered by USPS and UPS in America...yes.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't need to be "all of them". It only needs to be a significant number of them, which I think is true.
But if feeling superior to someone making a valid point makes you feel better, who am I to judge?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[TimSSG]

FYI: UK is not the USA. Tim S.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, I don't give a fuck.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to all 3 carriers, Amazon has been doing their own deliveries for quite some time now.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends where you live. If you have a warehouse in your city there's a good chance it's delivered by a local driver. All of those shipments have a #TBA tracking number since it's amazon's own tracking system

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lower wages coupled with a middle class aspiration for a standard of living create the market for cheap (low price, low quality) merchandise in the first place. I've gotten items because they were cheap. I've overlooked flaws as much as I can because its what I can afford. With more money now, I seek inexpensive (lowish price, good quality) items instead. Until work is paid what its worth, until workers are not treated like cogs in the machine, this race to the bottom will continue.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

They will get a clue soon, since Africa is coming to them!

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong question. The right question is, "Why are the top executives making so much more than the delivery drivers?"

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[ScentCone]

Of course this has nothing to do with any actual merchandise (in the US, OR in the UK, which is what the article is about). Which you know, but are pretending you don't.

This is about last-mile delivery service, apparently a good deal of which is being done by contractors who sign up to complete the work at a fixed price without having the foresight to contemplate the nature of the seasonal traffic for a few weeks in December.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[nehumanuscrede]

I'm the wierd American who prefers quality over cost. I refuse to deal with Black Friday bullshit and just stay away from it.

I'll happily pay MORE for an item if the quality warrants it.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[fluffernutter]

And furthermore, take a good look at where ALL the damn money is going.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

And nothing to do with scale of economy, low taxes, low energy prices....?

Everything in the UK costs 10 times more, and what do you have to show for it? Brexit! Wake me up when you've finish flushing your economy down the toilet and rebuilt it into something better :-)

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[ShanghaiBill]

I'm the wierd American who prefers quality over cost. I refuse to deal with Black Friday bullshit

Do you seriously believe that the products that are sold on Black Friday are different from the products sold on every other day? Do you think that factories make special "Black Friday" manufacturing runs, with the quality knob turned down?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

True, nothing comparable happens in USA

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[hjf]

Yes. https://www.fool.com/investing...

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[JustNiz]

Black Friday is all about the stores clearing shelves of old crap that wont sell. Of course there isn't any quality stuff in there.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[hey!]

And when it's you're turn, everyone will return the favor to you.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Wrath0fb0b]

Except when you look at some industries/rackets, you wonder why is this so expensive. And if you look, it's completely crooked. For example caskets, which somehow have a 500% markup -- charged the families of the recently deceased too.

So yeah, I agree with you -- some things are cheap because someone along the line isn't getting a fair deal. Other things are expensive because some rich asshole along the way is lining his pockets and paying off the right folks.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[sjames]

Actually, that is known to happen.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[PingPongBoy]

> a lot of people down the line are being fucked

Two things
1. so true
2. pretty soon there will be a lot fewer people down the line, with no abatement in output or production

The effects are hard to predict. Prices probably will drop. Not sure what people will do for an income. Possibly people will seek higher goals such as space exploration, if Star Wars puts the message inspirationally enough across.

For a long time the third world has been exploited. The advent of machines and more streamlined business practices have led to people closer to home under the yoke. Perhaps that is a blessing in disguise, as people get an early warning that they have to find something more worthy to do.

Some might say, let change start at the top - but Amazon is all about change already. If you want Amazon to change (i.e., be less hurtful), you barketh up the wrong tree. Amazon has been ahead of the curve on an idea, but the idea will persist and evolve and spread to other businesses. Amazon's way is not entirely rocket science, and they face diminishing returns while trying to keep their advantage.

What is interesting is that Amazon is able to convince some people to work so hard (perhaps these people are natural born workaholics). Therein lies a power that is difficult to compete against. I have seen different businesses try to copy a model, but the ones that did not have good workers failed or stagnated while the ones with good workers did better and flourished in good times.

Even so, Amazon has already known well in advance that it cannot sit still because technology is allowing smaller competitors to catch up, even as technology is also changing economics.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Kjella]

Something you will never hear any consumer ask themselves. Well, apart from wondering if it's a "Rollex" they're buying. The whole idea of capitalism is that money should go to the business that's most efficient, how can you tell if they're just brilliant at process automation and reducing overhead or exploiting the employees? And it's usually not their employees, it's a conglomerate of vendors, sub-contractors, partners, shipping/distribution/sales channels and so on that's five steps removed from the label on the box.

I'll admit that here I expect other regulatory bodies to step in and make sure what's happening is done legally, like those who oversee commercial transportation and work/rest hours, regulations on wages and overtime pay and so on. The general public is not supposed to have that level of internal detail to inspect it themselves, since it'd be a treasure trove of competition-sensitive information. All you'd get are haphazard reactions to real or manufactured scandals leaking to the press.

True, in a few limited areas like child labor, animal testing of products, trees from the rain forest and the use of certain chemicals pressure from the top has actually made an impact. But on basic working conditions like wages and such I don't think that'll ever be effective. It's either the government stepping in through law or the workers uniting through unions. To expect consumers to solve that problem for them I think is foolish. I'm not always going to go with the lowest bidder, but I'm going with the best offer for me.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[Malc]

You misunderstand. After Brexit we will be able to trade freely on a global scale: instead of importing cheap workers and goods from central and eastern Europe, weâ(TM)re going to import vastly cheaper stuff from our former colonies (ironically called the Commonwealth) and places even more impoverished. Wealthy people like Nigel Farage or loony Tories will get wealthier, and the common person whoâ(TM)s already poorer than they were in 2008 is going to be shafted even worse.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that Amazon packages are delivered by USPS and UPS in America...yes.

Every Prime package I have received in the past three months or so has been delivered by an Amazon delivery person, and I live in a medium-sized city in the midwest (big enough to have professional sports teams, but nowhere close in size to New York, Chicago, et al). Odds are a carrier like UPS is moving it from the warehouse to the local area, but the delivery to the home does not always use that same service.

I am sure if I order next-day delivery on top of Prime it would come FedEx or UPS, but it appears that Amazon are leveraging their in-house delivery for, at the very least, a non-trivial amount of deliveries.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[MoarSauce123]

True...which is why bringing manufacturing back to the US on a massive scale is bound to flop. "Shit" will be far more expensive and not competitive. I don't think wages are the core issue here, it is the insane amount of subsidies shipping companies collect. As soon as shipping crates of junk from China to the US costs the manufacturers what it should the entire constellation will change drastically.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Something you will never hear an American ask themselves.

Generally speaking, when you are buying so much "shit" for so much cheaper than the rest of the world, there is a good chance that this is only possible because a lot of people down the line are being fucked.
But hey... cheap tv for you so who give a fuck, am i right?

I'm sure when you shop you always choose the seller with the more expensive price for a product. Or might you be a hypocrite?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[vivian]

Not quite. It's not just people down the line getting screwed. The consumer is getting screwed fairly regularly too, because invariably, that cheap product isn't equivalent to the more expensive item.

For example. I bought a set of knives - great brand, at an unbelievably low price.
Turns out they aren't as big as they a look. What I thought was a normal sized serrated bread knife is actually a "muffin knife" - it's like a 2/3 size scale set of knives, which just happen to look identical the the normal full size set. Looking at the photos, you can't tell the difference.

Returning them isn't an option because I had them sent to my overseas address via my drop-shipper, so I'd have to eat the (very high) return cost.

Likewise, the $150 mesh back ergonomic office chairs I bought look great - and a bargain compared to teh $400 I last spent on a similar looking chair, but it turns out that actually the 5 castor wheel base is relatively flimsy, made of hollow plastic, with each castor arm twisting because of the way the castors don't support the weight directly under the pivot point where they afix to the arm - it's off to the side a bit.

It'd probably be fine with an average weight 70kg guy on it, but I am 193 cm 95kg (6ft4in / 210lb) and I'm sure it's not going to last more than a few months.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Desler]

First of all, Amazon is increasingly delivering their own packages. Secondly, UPS/Fedex drivers are treated like shit too.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Desler]

A meaningless distinction. Delivery drivers in the US are treated just as badly.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Hognoxious]

UK is not the USA.

Not yet.

I can hardly wait to try chicken à la hypochlorite that those barmy Belgian bureaucrats say I can't eat.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[b0s0z0ku]

This is actually about Amazon UK, not USA.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a nigg3r.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Hognoxious]

Why are the top executives making so much more than the delivery drivers?

Tricky one, that.

I'm in two minds here. It's either because the top executives are anointed by God and paying them less (or others more) would be communism, or it's because they make the decisions on pay.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know who thought True Scotsman pedantry was insightful, but the mistake has been rectified.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not who you're replying to, but I rarely every choose the seller with the cheapest price, nor the most expensive. Somewhere in the middle. Shipping location matters (closer to me is better), along with reputation, and just a general sense of honesty in the seller.

But. I swear the way the old Polocks around here speak, they do go for the cheapest, dodgiest compact fluorescent bulbs and then use their poor performance as justification that the old way was better, that young people are low skilled, energy saving is all a scam, etc.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[Zero__Kelvin]

You are even less likely to hear an American ask that in Britian where the subjects of this article live.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a cheapskate - buy some quality, seek out a local manufacturer before they are all gone.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[guruevi]

So you want to pay more for a product for what reason exactly? You think that if things were more expensive that people elsewhere would be treated better? Like all those "Fair Farming" coffee shops etc, for some reason, the plight of coffee growers hasn't changed much since the 80's except that half of them are now farming coca plants and poppies.

Here's a fact: people will try to maximize their profits at any point in the chain. If you want to pay more for a TV, that's fine, someone will charge you more, but that won't change the fact that your delivery driver still works for peanuts.

The question is why people choose to work under these conditions in countries that practically have UBI, worker protections and a surging job market. People are being offered McJobs at $12-15/hour, yet for some reason people are still picking dangerous, underpaying jobs in the "app economy" where they supposedly pay more in gas than they earn. My intuition tells me this isn't their primary job and they aren't paying taxes on the extra income.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[guruevi]

Not necessarily, but you will often get things that are assembled cheaper. Eg. you'll get the same brand/model of lawn tool but with a weaker/cheaper engine. Manufacturers indeed create stuff special for Black Friday, if you're going to move 100,000 models of something, that's enough for many fabs in China.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

What I thought was a normal sized serrated bread knife is actually a "muffin knife"

2.54cm = 1 inch.

Math. Learn how to use it.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well yes, but that's hardly Amazon's fault if Amazon isn't their employer.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Manufacturers indeed create stuff special for Black Friday, if you're going to move 100,000 models of something, that's enough for many fabs in China.

Some of it is like that. I honestly didn't buy anything on black friday though I did a lot of looking, including looking for a good deal on a high quality 1 or 2 stage belt drive, ~60 gallon belt drive compressor. The best deal I saw was actually menards before black friday, and then recently they had it again with their 11% rebates. Oh there were a lot of compressor sales, but the quality was below what I was willing to buy.

On a side note, Menards 11% rebates are the next thing to a scam. I still haven't seen any of them for the shopping I did this year.

In general for black friday particularly, and for even general shopping, try to find the scam. Sometimes a deal is a deal, but sometimes it is just not worth it. A common one I saw last year was all those useless laptops with 32Gb eMMc and 2GB of ram. Windows 10 doesn't like to live in that little amount of disk space. You also see laptop sales with spinning disks, which just makes no sense with today's technology.

Come to think of it, looking for the scam also works for elections. A pity more people didn't see the one being sold in the last.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[MoaDweeb]

Hey! Not all the Commonwealth is impoverished, just most of it. Good luck getting those Free Trade agreements in place, the EU have started negotiating in NZ primarily to stop the UK from getting in first. You are at the back of the queue.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[110010001000]

No they aren't. They get paid to deliver packages. They make between $21 and $27 per hour. How much do you make?

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

No they aren't. They get paid to deliver packages. They make between $21 and $27 per hour. How much do you make?

Nobody in CA makes a minimum of $21 delivering packages for Amazon.

What a fucking lier.

Eat shit and die 110010101000 for spreading such lies.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Ichijo]

Amazon is also subsidized in the USA.

And then we wonder why bookstores keep shutting down. We are not a bright people.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[GameboyRMH]

Indeed, it was in the US where an Amazon driver was caught on camera hastily taking a dump in a driveway.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[nehumanuscrede]

I seriously believe that even if they gave away a product for FREE on Black Friday, I would not bother fighting the crowds for it.

I don't have to have an item quite that badly to deal with that sh*t.

I can wait.

It's just stuff.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Washington state, everything I've ever ordered from Amazon comes via FedEx or UPS. I've never even seen an Amazon deliver trunk on the city streets or highways.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[dwywit]

Could this be the reason why Amazon's Australian launch day prices were higher than anticipated?

We have strict rules about minimum wages, shift length, etc. Perhaps Amazon can't discount prices so steeply because they have to employ more workers and pay them a minimum hourly rate?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[AmiMoJo]

All they need to do is not eat or pay rent for a couple of weeks and the problem is solved, right?

Actually it's like this all year round. Has been for years. They are just bringing it up again because of the Christmas rush.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[CRC'99]

Except this article is talking about Amazon in the UK, not the USA. Good job RTFAing...

RTFA? Are you new here?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Billly Gates]

Except this article is talking about Amazon in the UK, not the USA. Good job RTFAing...

... with American investors at Wall Street demanding 15% returns every quarter forever and ever and ever with no end in sight or the CEO is fired. I am sure it is not just consumers who are demanding cheaper and cheaper costs right?

Also Walmart started this not the consumer. Walmart beat the giant Kmart and Woolsworth by forcing suppliers to cust costs so so low. It got the people into the stores and created a culture of budget prices and races to get into Walmart last decade by making it the cheapest.

The consumer is the last on the list. If you want to do business with Aamazon or Walmart you need to screw people over and use robots. Plain and simple or they won't carry your product.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[ScentCone]

Why would they not pay rent? They number of hours you spend during a rush week (11 vs. say, 8) doesn't change your income when you contract to do this sort of work. So why would it be harder to pay your rent when they're delivering peak loads of packages? Are you even listening to yourself?

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, I've been stockpiling money away, most of that because goods are so cheap.

I only work for fun now. If it ever got to be like that, I'd retire.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[cyn1c77]

Something you will never hear an American ask themselves.

Generally speaking, when you are buying so much "shit" for so much cheaper than the rest of the world, there is a good chance that this is only possible because a lot of people down the line are being fucked.
But hey... cheap tv for you so who give a fuck, am i right?

Ha ha! The article is about the UK. But maybe you didn't read it since this is /.

However, in the OP's blurb, the take home pay amount (160) was preceded by the pound symbol.

What is particularly impressive is not that your hate blinded you to reality, but that five other readers also modded you up as insightful.

I guess poor reading comprehension of news articles is not a uniquely American trait? But it's always easier to blame others than to look in the mirror.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are three main class of employment in tge UK, and delivery drivers tend to fit in the middle one, which is neither self not directly employed. Thus, if offered such a position, if they are unemployed and turn it down, they will have benefits stopped. Not applying will mean having benefits stopped. It's not two weeks without benefits, but five.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[AmiMoJo]

They get paid a fixed amount per delivery. If they work 8 hours but the roads are busy they get less money.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[vivian]

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls but i don't even understand quite what you are supposed to be trolling here... there's no reference to inches or cm in the scale of the knife.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

An irony is that a number of those regulations that people complain about are the ones implemented by Brussels bureaucrats at the insistence of the UK. It was a primary motivator for banana quality regulations.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[ScentCone]

If the roads are busy, it just takes them longer that day to deliver all of the packages in their care. They don't return to the warehouse after each package, they load up and spend hours delivering their whole payload. They may do that twice a day. Depends on the local situation. This isn't pizza delivery, it's just like that UPS truck that has your package "out for delivery" in the morning, and may not appear until that evening. All of our Amazon-brand drivers and the private contractors who also do that work tell me they shove off in the morning with a couple hundred packages in their vans. And they're done when they're done.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's a "Rollex" I'm thinking that you paid too much for it (from the guy on the corner)...

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Thelasko]

First of all, Amazon is increasingly delivering their own packages. Secondly, UPS/Fedex drivers are treated like shit too.

I know some UPS employees. While it's a demanding job, they are also members of the Teamsters Union. They have significant protections against unfair labor practices. They can also make some pretty good money. Some drivers bring in six figures if they work enough overtime and have seniority.

There aren't many places where you can make that much money without a college education.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would ruin the economics of shipping crates of junk from the US to the rest of the world too, though. Be careful what you wish for.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they add so much more value to the company than the delivery drivers and because almost everyone can become a delivery driver, while good top executives are very hard to find.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse, potentially. We recently discovered that our state does not have any maximum shift length, and an abusive employer is well within their rights to demand you work as long as they want or fire you for not doing so (scheduling you for 20 hours a day is perfectly legal). For low paid workers, having to pay overtime pay does not incentivize employers to limit workers to reasonable hours.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. All their fault not knowing everything there is to know about a field I would assume was not their first choice in career.

It's inconceivable that their union doesn't have pamphlets and advisors to ensure the delivery work force isn't in competition with people so desperate for work they'd not quit their shit job even though they had no idea what they were getting into and probably would have argued for more pay if they'd known or thought they had a choice.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

The #1 reason is that it costs 40x as much to live in the United States as practically anyplace else on earth. 50% of humanity lives on less than $5/day, and I'll spend more than that on my lunch.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[k6mfw]

A cousin said some years ago reason we see growing number of self storage places and more people in credit card debt because sales and marketing people have so successfully getting people to go into debt buying stuff they don't need.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[cascadingstylesheet]

Something you will never hear an American ask themselves.

Generally speaking, when you are buying so much "shit" for so much cheaper than the rest of the world, there is a good chance that this is only possible because a lot of people down the line are being fucked. But hey... cheap tv for you so who give a fuck, am i right?

The article is about the UK ... those darn Americans, moving to the UK and then ordering stuff from Amazon.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Another irony is not spotting irony.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[MercTech]

Where is Amazon actually delivering with their own fleet?

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[kenh]

"local driver" =/= "Amazon employee"

An Amazon tracking number doesn't mean the driver works for Amazon, it means Amazon is using an alternative shipper that lacks their own tracking system.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[kenh]

Amazon does not have an in-house delivery service, they have contractors that send drivers to pick up packages at nearby Amazon facilities.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[kenh]

Amazon charges what the market will bear, and just because you and your fellow Australians expected bigger discounts when Amazon came to town doesn't obligate Amazon to offer steeper discounts.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[kenh]

Nobody in CA makes a minimum of $21 delivering packages for Amazon.

The employees of UPS, USPS do - independent contractors that deliver packages for contract shipping firms that deal with Amazon don't, but they are paid per-piece, and the per-piece rate will go up the moment there aren't a dozen drivers competing for for the privilege of delivering each package spilling out the back of the local Amazon facility.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[kenh]

They get paid a fixed amount per delivery. If they work 8 hours but the roads are busy they get less money.

No.

If they are paid per piece delivered the only way pay is reduced is to deliver fewer pieces. Taking longer to deliver the same number of per-piece items only reduces your EFFECTIVE pay RATE, not your actual pay.

Deliver 200 packages in 8 hours for fifty cents each, take home $100.

Deliver 200 packages in 11 hours for fifty cents each, take home $100.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Anonymous Coward]

That ought to be a big red flag!

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[david_thornley]

Bringing manufacturing back into the US can make a lot of sense. It's got to be easier to run a complex automated production line here than in China. Bringing lots of low-end well-paying manufacturing jobs back? Not going to happen.

Re: Why is this so cheap?

[Malc]

Ah yeah sorry, youâ(TM)re right. Briton fucked everyone over when she joined the EEC in the first place and ended Imperial Prefernce for places like NZ. Brexit Britons are too short-sighted to see this.

Re:Why is this so cheap?

[Gornkleschnitzer]

Yep, you think you're buying a watch and really you're buying aluminum soffit panels.

inb4 cayenne8

[Hognoxious]

Delivering parsel's was never meant to pay a living wage it's something women & teenagers' do for a bit of side money.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[Anonymous Coward]

Go back from whatever rock you climbed out of. We do not need more trolls here.

If you want your damn parcels delivered, the person delivering them must get a decent wage. Anything else is bullshit.

Otherwise we can slash your salary too, whatever you are doing isn't meant do pay a living wage either.

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope.
Time is money.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[Anonymous Coward]

This is simply not true, many people are attempting to live on these wages. If a business cannot afford to employ people for a living wage then the business is not viable.

By pushing down wages, it stops businesses that can pay a living wage from competing.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[HornWumpus]

You don't get to pull definitions out of your ass.

It's a viable business. Their employee's lives my not be viable, but that's their own fault. Their purpose is to serve as a warning to the next generation. Don't make the choices they made.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[barc0001]

Do you honestly think Amazon can meet their delivery targets with a modest pool of part timers?

Also

> it's something women

What the fuck is this, 1930?

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[sjames]

So delivering parcels was always intended to be in violation of the law? Because minors aren't allowed to be delivery drivers.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[fluffernutter]

So they should either commit crimes or die? Or maybe you're in favor of more and more people pulling from welfare.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[sjames]

OP is correct. if the business isn't able to pay enough to keep it's employees in food, clothing, shelter, etc, then it is not a viable business. If it CAN but won't then it is a leech on society.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[Anonymous Coward]

Teenager = 18. 18 != miner.
You = idiot.

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[Anonymous Coward]

Itâ(TM)s low skill work, nobody makes big wages anymore doing a job almost anyone with a GED or high school education can do. Sadly the unemployment for low skill is high in the UK and so Amazon takes advantage of this. Not like WalMart is doing any better, or that Amazon in the US pays warehouse people better. Yes, its probably not a good livable wage but again, get a good education, develop a skill and avoid this trap of not being a valuable person to an employer.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[sjames]

Upon looking, I see that Amazon requires it's drivers to be 21 or older. What was that about being for teens to make extra money again?

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[I'm New Around Here]

No. women weren't allowed to work in manual labor until the Second World War took all the men away. So, 1940s.

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[Anonymous Coward]

miner != minor

pot = kettle

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[I'm New Around Here]

Minors not miners.

Re:inb4 cayenne8

[Anonymous Coward]

Women were working in manual labour long before the 1940s.

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[kenh]

if the business isn't able to pay enough to keep it's employees in food, clothing, shelter, etc, then it is not a viable business. If it CAN but won't then it is a leech on society.

So the purpose of a business is to feed, clothe, and shelter their employees?

Funny, I never see those metrics in any annual report, instead I see sales, revenues, expenses, and profits.

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[kenh]

women weren't allowed to work in manual labor until the Second World War

Your teachers failed you, women worked in manual labor for centuries before World War Two...

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[I'm New Around Here]

Did you also correct the post I replied to that said they only started in the 1930s?

Just checked, and no you didn't.

I was specifically talking about the "Rosie the Riveter" factory jobs that were not filled by women until WW II.

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[sjames]

So you think the business would do just fine if it's employees were all naked half-starved hobos? Or do you believe businesses have a netural right to make you pay half their payroll for them? Perhaps you'd like to pay their light bill too?

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[Hognoxious]

it's employees

its employees

netural

neutral? natural, spoken with a South African accent?

Re: inb4 cayenne8

[sjames]

Surry, i dun''t gi've a fly-''.!ing FICK.

This is actually a really sad story.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have stopped using Amazon for a few years now. Probably do fuck all but it makes me feel better :D

Re:This is actually a really sad story.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not hitting my stock price too hard.

Re:This is actually a really sad story.

[andrewbaldwin]

You're not alone. I too have had concerns about their lack of concern for people, environment or even their customers.

Things to come

[PopeRatzo]

11 hour days for sub-minimum wage is your future too, tech chuds.

Re:Things to come

[Anonymous Coward]

Uber drivers should get minimum wage for hours worked (waiting + driving) plus they should get another minimum wage for allowing strangers to ride in their cars. So their wage should be 1.5x to 2x minimum wage. Otherwise, Uber is stealing from them by underpaying them.

Re:Things to come

[Bert64]

If you paid them for waiting, then you'd need to cap the number of drivers active in any given area, restrict the areas drivers are allowed to wait and force drivers to take jobs on a rota, otherwise you could have drivers just "waiting" and getting paid in the middle of nowhere so they won't get any passengers.
Conversely, sparsely populated areas would never get any service because it would be unprofitable to pay someone to wait there.

When i lived in a small village there was a part time taxi driver who usually worked on vehicle maintenance/restorations... Because of the low population he might drive one or two jobs a week and make a few extra pennies, and when doing so he'd temporarily down tools on his other job and return to it when he got back. Sometimes if the passenger went to the nearest town he'd use the opportunity to go shopping.
Calling a driver from the nearest town could mean waiting more than an hour for them to arrive, and paying a fare just for them to arrive, plus wherever you wanted to go.

Re:Things to come

[JustNiz]

not mine. I just dont bend over that far.

Re:Things to come

[PopeRatzo]

not mine. I just dont bend over that far.

That's what they all say. But when the time comes, they all bend over.

It's how late-stage capitalism works.

11-hour days?

[Anonymous Coward]

11 hour days? Holy first world problems.

Not to say this report isn't important or that Amazon shouldn't do better, but wow is the first world out of touch.

Re:11-hour days?

[OzPeter]

11 hour days? Holy first world problems.

Not to say this report isn't important or that Amazon shouldn't do better, but wow is the first world out of touch.

So you want stressed out drivers, holding their bladders while zipping around at high speed in traffic breaking speeding (and probably other) laws in order to make a minimal amount of money?

Sure it's a first world problem but it also has first world consequences that can affect a lot of people. All it takes is one delivery guy to slip up and all of a sudden he's driving a multi-ton vehicle into a crowd of people.

There's a reason that government entities like OSHA exist.

Re:11-hour days?

[Bert64]

Well part of what makes these first world countries is the higher standards of living and various employment laws to prevent unscrupulous employers from abusing their employees.

Re:11-hour days?

[aaarrrgggh]

The peeing into a plastic bottle trick is pretty common for “professional” drivers, and the 11-your days seem like a pretty good deal to America s. The thing I dislike about it all is that Amazon, Uber, and Lyft all do things with their algorithms to waste driver’s time and productivity.

Amazon uses boxes grossly larger than needed, and could often get by with bags instead, limiting the number of packages they can take— all while sending multiple drivers to the same address, from the same warehouse, in the course of an hour or two. Lyft and Uber do thing to share load between drivers rather than select the closest to the pickup.

Re:11-hour days?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds profitable, why are you against profits?

Re:11-hour days?

[ShanghaiBill]

The peeing into a plastic bottle trick is pretty common for “professional” drivers

Also small plane pilots. The bottle is way cheaper and more comfortable than buying adult diapers.

Free advice: Do NOT use a bottle that still has an "Apple Juice" label on it.

Amazon uses boxes grossly larger than needed

I have never understood this. I get boxes from Amazon that are WAY too big for the contents all the time. This must be costing them money, for the cardboard, padding, weight, and volume. Why do they do this?

It seems to me that it would be trivial to write some code to add up the size of the contents to pick the right box. A robot could then pull the box and add it to the picking bin.

Re:11-hour days?

[OzPeter]

Amazon uses boxes grossly larger than needed

I have never understood this. I get boxes from Amazon that are WAY too big for the contents all the time. This must be costing them money, for the cardboard, padding, weight, and volume. Why do they do this?

It seems to me that it would be trivial to write some code to add up the size of the contents to pick the right box. A robot could then pull the box and add it to the picking bin.

There is also a cost to stocking shipping boxes that just happen to be the right size for the products you buy. Making things a uniform size has an efficiency (and hence minimizes cost) of its own. EG look at how cargo containers transformed shipping.

Do you really think that given the number of boxes that Amazon ships that they haven't looked at the price/performance of differing box sizes?

Re:11-hour days?

[ShanghaiBill]

There is also a cost to stocking shipping boxes that just happen to be the right size

Instead of stocking boxes, they could just stock flat sheets of cardboard, and laser cut the cardboard to the ideal size on-demand.

But, anyway, I don't think stocking is the main problem. I get boxes that are WAY too big, while on the same day receiving other smaller boxes that would have easily held the contents of the first box. So they clearly had the smaller boxes in stock.

I realize that the Packing Problem is NP-Hard, but there are heuristics that allow an adequate solution. They should be able to do way better.

Re: 11-hour days?

[Anonymous Coward]

Itâ(TM)s not about 11 hour working days, you idiot. Itâ(TM)s about not driving for more than 11 hours because itâ(TM)s dangerous and has been made illegal in the U.K. amazingly enough, preventing employers from requiring staff to drive for more than 11 hours in a day makes the roads a lot safer, and road accidents are a lot less common in the âoefirst worldâ for this and other reasons.

Why are smart arses always so fucking stupid?

Re:11-hour days?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do they do this?

It seems to me that it would be trivial to write some code to add up the size of the contents to pick the right box. A robot could then pull the box and add it to the picking bin.

I thought so too, until I saw a problem like this in a certain "Problem Solving" textbook. Turns out, it is not simple at all (combinatorial NP-hard):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:11-hour days?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Blaine Hurst, the CEO and president of Panera, told me that because of its new [self-service] kiosks, and an app that allows online ordering, the chain is now processing more orders overall, which means it needs more total workers to fulfill customer demand.

Different shipping centres, etc. etc. Come on, don't be dim. Amazon are a multinational multi-billion dollar corporation. They have studied this problem a lot more than you have.

Re:11-hour days?

[TheRaven64]

Read down to the approximations solution. As with many NP-hard problems, getting the optimal solution is computationally infeasible, but getting a good-enough solution is fairly easy.

Re:11-hour days?

[thegarbz]

On which demand? The only time this stops being a problem directly for Amazon is after the customer has signed it. The warehouse is only a very small part of the logistics chain.

Re: 11-hour days?

[kenh]

You assume that Amazon has NOT hit upon a "good enough" solution?

The boxes you complain about typically aren't big enough to incur a size charge, so box size doesn't affect shipping costs.

The price difference between a small box and a teeny box is very small, so small that as the order quantity of boxes goes up into the millions of units the price difference becomes irrelevant.

The real cost is time, if an employee can pack more packages in less time using over-sized boxes compared with taking the time to consider getting a smaller box and saving Amazon a few pennies on the box, then the bigger box will be used.

Re: 11-hour days?

[kenh]

These drivers are self-employed, paid per-piece.

Re: 11-hour days?

[kenh]

These drivers are self-employed independent contractors.

The beauty of borderless commerce in the EU

[Anonymous Coward]

> Many claim they are employed in a way that means they have no rights to holiday or sickness pay.

Maybe they should go on strike? Oh no wait, Amazon found a way around that pesky annoyance: they'll just ship orders from an Amazon warehouse in another EU country.

Re: The beauty of borderless commerce in the EU

[kenh]

Amazon's 'trick' is to hire an outside shipping firm which in turn hires independent contractors to deliver local packages.

Using a shipping company to ship packages is a standard business practice, not a 'trick'.

Amazon vs the Daily Mirror

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't believe either of them

almost Dickensian

[fahrbot-bot]

Noting that Charles Dickens' works were often so long because he usually got paid by the word. (My wife was an English teacher.)

Re:almost Dickensian

[Anonymous Coward]

Was? Please tell us what happened to your wife. Did you eat her?

Re:almost Dickensian

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, when I pointed that out in high school, my English teachers tended to get a tad miffed.

Re:almost Dickensian

[david_thornley]

Science fiction writer Clifford Simak wrote westerns for a while at a sixth of a cent per word. There's reasons why people in those stories tended to empty their guns: writing "Bang!" six times got a whole cent.

So they have a few bad week...

[Anonymous Coward]

Holiday season isn't year round... So they have a three or four busy weeks? Suck it up.

Re:So they have a few bad week...

[Anonymous Coward]

And why would they work for a parcel delivery company, and then expect time-off during peak parcel delivery season?

So quit?

[mveloso]

Uh, why not quit?

Dear unnamed Amazon worker ...

[Qbertino]

... if you go on a shooting rampage - which I would totally get btw. - please be so kind and kill the right people.

That aside: A job this grueling you might want to quit.

Just sayin'.

Re:Dear unnamed Amazon worker ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Advocating violence is wrong. But what can you expect today from the fascist right and communist left. Misplaced anger with no direction. Ready, fire, aim is the mantra of the extremists on the left and right.

Re:Dear unnamed Amazon worker ...

[Krishnoid]

That aside: A job this gruel-ing you might want to quit.

Even though the "conditions [have been] described by one lawyer as "almost Dickensian"", I hear that some of them actually ask for more.

This isn't very hard

[slshdtisctrldbysjws]

Bad job?
Quit.
Can't find another job?
Protest.
Protest doesn't work?
Go to war.

This is how things have always worked before, why shouldn't this work now?

I don't have to ask

[rsilvergun]

I know. But what do you propose I do about it? We couldn't even keep Trump out of the Whitehouse. His tax plan is going to f'n kill me (kid in college and I'm in a state with SALT). I'm getting the shit kicked out of me. So are a lot of working class Americans. And all I hear from anyone else ever is: "Why don't you go back to school and update your skills?". Like that's so damn easy.

America abandoned it's working class. Do you really think they care about the rest of the world that abandoned them?

Re:I don't have to ask

[DNS-and-BIND]

Liberal whites wanted to be rid of the culturally conservative, economically liberal, working-class white voters whom Democrats had courted in the previous decade. Upper-middle-class whites were embarrassed by these people. After all these centuries of white privilege, they never managed to get into a good schoolâ"or even a state collegeâ"and now they were making demands about trade and immigration.

One of the themes that emerges from Shattered (a chronicle of the Clinton campaign) is that the Clinton operation didnâ(TM)t want to make a strong play for working-class white voters in swing states. The Clintonites thought these voters were disposable. That's you.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

if his tax plan is going to 'kill you'.

you've been getting a free fucking ride for a long time.

if people had not been doing shit like that all along. trump never could have been elected.

your fault.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

Another basement-dweller alternate reality Slashdotter who thinks he's an economist.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh what a coincidence. The raging Liberal who hates all Republicans is going to be completely destroyed by their tax plan. Couldn't possibly have seen that one coming!!

Re:I don't have to ask

[kevin805]

Oh, why do I do this to myself? I noticed £160 in the blurb and my first thought was "I wonder how much of the comment section is blaming this on Trump?". I should have just ignored the thread.

As to the tax bill, if I may be so direct, you're whining about the working class, and you are in college. If you are in college and are not studying a marketable skill and you don't have a rich family to support you, you are making poor life choices. You don't mention working. Did you pay anything in taxes last year? How much do you expect your taxes to increase by? I'm going to out on a limb and guess that you were not previously itemizing your massive property tax bill if you're a student.

So, can you offer some explanation of how this tax bill is going to negatively impact you?

Re:I don't have to ask

[Gravis Zero]

One of the themes that emerges from Shattered (a chronicle of the Clinton campaign) is that the Clinton operation didnâ(TM)t want to make a strong play for working-class white voters in swing states. The Clintonites thought these voters were disposable. That's you.

Then he should be grateful that the Republicans won and now how majority of the Legislative branch and veto power of the Presidency that is about to destroy him by eliminating SALT deductions? How would he be worse off with the Democrats in power?

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are in college

I'm not. Learn to read.

if you're a student.

I'm not. Learn to read.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

If your kid is in college and using SALT, you are several multiples above working class. You shit on the real working class every day on slashdot with hopes that coal miners die or otherwise disappear. You want "the deplorables" to have endless horrors imposed on them. You are anti-working class and have such a comlpete lack of self-awareness that you will put on their carrhart mantle for politically motivated mod points. It's disgusting.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was in high school, I was bullied by athletes. And also non-athletes. They made fun of me because I was good at math and used my computer a lot.

Now I rake it in, while they work dead-end jobs like you do.

Every member of the American working class had access to free public school and could have studied just like I did. But many of them just fucked around instead, or studied worthless dead-end shit. So, their lack of wisdom is the author of their predicament.

Furthermore, I feel little empathy for them, given how badly they treated me. Same goes for all the girls that turned their noses up at my advances and flung insults my way. Fuck all of you. Sleep in the bed you made. Mine is nice and fluffy.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

"culturally conservative, economically liberal"

What does that mean? Because it sounds like it means:

Someone who thinks homosexual marriage should be illegal, transvestites must use their genetic-gender-determined restroom, civilian gun ownership should be legal but not abortion.....but.....the wealthy should be heavily taxed and the money spent on free providence for the unwealthy (and especially the jobless), including a luxury budget.

That sounds like a strange combination. Are there a lot of people like this?

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't agree at all with the generalization. The "whites" who still cared about "these people" flocked to Sanders instead. But they are still "liberal whites". Clinton is not the definition of liberal ideology (although sadly maybe for the majority and definitely for the "institution").

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

No wonder Democrats rape so much when they finally get a little cash. Get a load of this dude! Holy Shit!

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

"This dude" worked hard to earn his money, and doesn't want to give it away for free to a bunch of people who didn't do the same, and also treated him (and others like him) badly.

You act like there is something wrong with that.

Re:I don't have to ask

[AmiMoJo]

Trumpists still don't seem to have realised that they were fucked over, even as the tax plans hit and all pretence falls away.

Clinton lost because she became part of the false narrative. "You are under attack by liberals, immigrants, the political elite. I'll drain the swamp, build a big wall. Simple solutions to complex problems. I'll lead your revolution against this crook!"

And you got Trump, who doesn't give a shit about you now he has your vote. The plan is to screw you hard, blame someone else and peddle the same lies next election.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because you got beat up in high school is no reason to become a Democrat! You think MS-13, BLM, and other members of the Democrat Party base wouldn't have whipped your ass just as much as any deplorable in flyover country?

Re:I don't have to ask

[dunkelfalke]

Economically liberal means that people should be allowed to do economically whatever they want without any reprecussions AKA wannabe money nobility. Add the cultural conservativity and the result is basically a person that wants to be the greatest dick ever in every way to the largest amount of people possible.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Rolgar]

It depends on your situation.

When I did my taxes a couple of years ago (making 54k), I received a refund (after no withholding) of around 3500-4000 due to child tax credits. Just found a calculator, and put in the same income and other numbers and found one says I would be due a refund of about 4500 on one calculator, and another that says I may be due 6800. Either way, indications are that we'll be better off.

The majority of Americans don't make the sort of money that will result in itemizing taxes, and so deductions don't matter to most, they have to take the standard. Realize that not everybody's taxes will go down under the plan that passes. When you eliminate deductions in favor of lower rates and larger standard deductions, some people who were using a lot of deductions are going to end up with a larger tax bill, but those who don't itemize are going to come out ahead. For my situation, I'll be giving up a 3,000 deduction for each child, which at my tax rate is about 450 in taxes, in order to receive an increase in tax credits of $600 or $1000 dollars, so I'm going to be getting an improvement in my end position. Multiply this by the number of kids I have, and we will have a lot of new money to help secure our financial future.

Also, balance the old plan against the new for a lifetime. For somebody who still has young kids at home, they are going to reap thousands of dollars in tax credits (much better than deductions, of which you only get a small percentage back in tax reduction, credits are dollar for dollar decreases), for more than a decade, then when their kids go to school, hopefully they will have done well enough preparation for the previous decades to pay the taxes on money that they will end up paying for education, which will probably be partially offset by their greater standard deduction that they will now be more inclined to take. For me, in the 15% bracket (assuming it is still here when my kids are in college), if I could deduct tuition, I'd get back about 6000 for deducting tuition. Comparing that to the amount of money I'd get back in additional tax credits (18,000 at 1000x18years), I'd absolutely prefer the new tax code.

You are an individual where you've already missed the main benefits of this new tax code, but also losing out on what something that you've already started to use. But most probably don't take advantage of the same tax benefit you are enjoying, and those that soon will reach the place you are, and may not even be aware of what they no longer might have had, but hopefully reaping a replacement reward in lower overall taxes.

Consider a couple who is at 30 a year combined income (a low income couple with no dependents). Their taxable income will go down 2700, increasing their refund by $270.

Consider a family at 30k with 2 kids. Under the new plan without tax deductions, their taxable income goes up, but with tax credits, their tax refund would go from 1960 to 3400.

Understand, the press and Democrats are demonizing this bill. But when people start doing taxes under this plan, the poor are going to be pleased, and the tax code will be more progressive shifting tax burdens from the lower class to the middle and upper, and is the media going to complain about the poor paying less taxes?

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like you're saying it's Clinton's fault that Trump's cronies are taking money from liberal working-class whites. Clinton ignored us, so we are ripe for Trump to eat!

Why do Trump supporters think shifting the tax burden from the people who have influence in government and control most of the money in this country to people who are too busy working to make ends meet is a good thing? It doesn't trickle down. It just concentrates money at the top, yet we only seem to argue about which poor slobs are more deserving of modest relief than other poor slobs.

I often see Trump compared to Hitler. I don't think that makes any sense. He is more like a Roman dictator. We are slave to the republic, yet will be entertained.

Re:I don't have to ask

[aceboomblain]

There is a certain percentage of people that are assholes. It is roughly the same across all income levels.
Congratulations, you are now just as much of an asshole as the assholes who bullied you before.

Re:I don't have to ask

[Anonymous Coward]

You are in the vast, vast minority. I've been calculating taxes for all of my clients under the new tax plan, and well over 90% of those earning under $50k are gonna get 1-2k less in tax refunds, no matter the family situation. However my clients that make over $250k will be saving upwards of $10k. I'm sorry statistics disprove your anecdote.

Re:I don't have to ask

[cascadingstylesheet]

I know. But what do you propose I do about it? We couldn't even keep Trump out of the Whitehouse. His tax plan is going to f'n kill me (kid in college and I'm in a state with SALT). I'm getting the shit kicked out of me. So are a lot of working class Americans. And all I hear from anyone else ever is: "Why don't you go back to school and update your skills?". Like that's so damn easy. America abandoned it's working class. Do you really think they care about the rest of the world that abandoned them?

The article is about the UK ...

Re:I don't have to ask

[mjwx]

Liberal whites wanted to be rid of the culturally conservative, economically liberal, working-class white voters whom Democrats had courted in the previous decade. Upper-middle-class whites were embarrassed by these people. After all these centuries of white privilege, they never managed to get into a good schoolâ"or even a state collegeâ"and now they were making demands about trade and immigration.

One of the themes that emerges from Shattered (a chronicle of the Clinton campaign) is that the Clinton operation didnâ(TM)t want to make a strong play for working-class white voters in swing states. The Clintonites thought these voters were disposable. That's you.

Hate to break it to you chief, but the Republicans also think you're disposable, in fact more so than the Democrats who at least need to make token gestures that they care about the working classes. The Republicans will sell you a lie about the future... then sell you down the river for fun and profit.

Re: I don't have to ask

[kenh]

His tax plan is going to f'n kill me (kid in college and I'm in a state with SALT). I'm getting the shit kicked out of me.

First off, your taxes haven't changed - yet.

Second, your inability to pay less federal income taxes because you pay SALT taxes makes no sense, how does paying higher SALT taxes entitle you to pay less federal income taxes? You are blaming the federal government for your high state and local taxes.

Perhaps you should ask why you have SALT taxes when other states get by without them.

Re:I don't have to ask

[david_thornley]

Not all people have access to public schools worthy of the name. The public schools were generally pretty good where we raised our son, but some of them are too neglected to give pupils a chance.

The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[rsilvergun]

side stepping minimum wage laws. Thing is, I'm guessing 99% of /.ers aren't in a position to worry about this. What we _are_ in a position to worry about is how 40 years of stagnant wages mean it's harder and harder for us to make ends meet. So we'll turn a blind eye. Thing is this will come around to bite us eventually, but when you're barely hanging on eventually doesn't really matter. Me? I'm just trying to get my kid through college and to hell with everything else. And that about sums it up. The working class is too busy surviving to band together and make a positive change. It's almost as if somebody designed it that way...

Re:The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[fluffernutter]

Good comment.

Re:The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[Rick Zeman]

side stepping minimum wage laws. Thing is, I'm guessing 99% of /.ers aren't in a position to worry about this. What we _are_ in a position to worry about is how 40 years of stagnant wages mean it's harder and harder for us to make ends meet. So we'll turn a blind eye. Thing is this will come around to bite us eventually, but when you're barely hanging on eventually doesn't really matter. Me? I'm just trying to get my kid through college and to hell with everything else. And that about sums it up. The working class is too busy surviving to band together and make a positive change. It's almost as if somebody designed it that way...

Yeah, all the gig economy means is the guy at the bottom is guaranteed to get screwed.

Re:The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[fluffernutter]

It's the new Amway.

Re:The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[guruevi]

My question is: if these kind of stories weren't on the Internet, would it be any different than 20-30 years ago?

When I was young, I worked as a job student (18yo) which comes with all sorts of regulations, I still regularly worked 14h shifts until 4:00am, I was payed my hourly wages and my boss gave me an extra $50 under the table every week and I was more than happy. IF I had twitter back then, everyone would be outraged but I know everyone was doing it back then too. My boss was making ~$1M/year with his little burger shop on the beach, I never was outraged that he made so much more from my extra hours of "illegal" work.

This "gig economy" is similar: young people work "on the side" using these apps, perhaps they already work deliveries for a pizza shop or courier and then they'll get a little extra that they will never report to their bosses or the tax man. In the end they'll work more than they should and they get some extra income. But now they get to Twitter because Amazon is making a billion dollars and THEY AREN'T and driving a car somehow entitles them to a profit share from Amazon. Well guess what dimwits: if you don't like it, move on, get a real second job.

Re:The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[Altrag]

That works when you're young. And basically never again. That extra $50 goes a lot further for a single guy in his late teens (especially if you're still living at home) than it does for a mid-40s guy having to support a wife and 2 or 3 teenagers of his own.

Young people are also more resilient when dealing with excessive strain (whether physical or mental.) By the time you're in your late 30s or 40s, those 14 hour workdays aren't just a strain on your family life but for most people, their bodies just aren't up to the task anymore. Sure we can still pull a double shift or two once in a while when we have to, but its not something we can do continuously any more.

And finally, at 18 years old you don't yet know the value of your work. You tend to see "some money" as better than "no money." This kind of gets back to the issue of expenses -- if you have basically $0 fixed costs and all of your income is essentially disposable, it can be difficult to realize what an actual life costs, and therefore how valuable yours should be (not even counting any additional skills or experience you bring to the table above simple grunt work.)

Re:The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[PingPongBoy]

side stepping minimum wage laws. Thing is, I'm guessing 99% of /.ers aren't in a position to worry about this. What we _are_ in a position to worry about is how 40 years of stagnant wages mean it's harder and harder for us to make ends meet. So we'll turn a blind eye. Thing is this will come around to bite us eventually, but when you're barely hanging on eventually doesn't really matter. Me? I'm just trying to get my kid through college and to hell with everything else. And that about sums it up. The working class is too busy surviving to band together and make a positive change. It's almost as if somebody designed it that way...

But that is patently false. With all the power of the Internet and people talking about issues, change for the better should be happening.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

When I was young, there was no Internet and the idea of a personal computer crawled out of the swamps of the vacuum tube era, yet there was still plenty of technology and angst over class distinction.

What is behind the problems, well what changed? There have been both positive and negative changes.
Positive: better technology
Positive: cleaner energy, taking more care of the environment
Positive: increased scientific knowledge
Positive: kinder, friendlier world insofar as policy, awareness, propaganda, etc.
Negative: increased distraction of better entertainment
Negative: fewer people needed to produce the same output
Negative: more regulations, more Big Brother
Negative: entry level competition is stiffer as niches are filled and standards are set

I look at the TV shows where people are "innovative" and look for angel investment. What do a lot of these people "innovate"? Clothing, craft food, exercise gimmicks, cosmetics, etc. One thing I don't do much of is walk through a mall, but if I did, the little shops in malls sell just this kind of crap too. Who buys this stuff? People with time on their hands, I suppose.

And now that there are fewer malls and more big boxes, I go into a big box and it's like a mall without walls. All the same crap is there only on a bunch of shelves. Row after row of very similar products, and not cheap either. And no one coming closes than a ten foot pole.

So are wages going to stagnate? Complaining won't do any good. Sales stagnated, but wages won't? Even upper management is hurting. If people are trying to make a quick kill on bitcoin, it isn't because they're rich to start with, it's because they're staring down the barrel of a gun. Can't push a rope.

The thing is, some people are actually trying to "innovate", that is, use the stuff between their ears, trying to do more. And then surely to God with all the technology available in the world, the creme de la creme would be the only ones making it onto prime time TV in order to talk to multimillionaires and not waste their time with weirdo gimmicks, or does that not make any sense? But even so, in order to fill up an hour of programming time, the majority that shows up is a bunch of rejects.

It's time to wake the hell up. It's time to "worry about this". Guess who or what is coming to eat your lunch? Machine intelligence. Then again, what does it matter? It's not a question of people being beaten by machines. I have observed plenty of human intelligence, and people are undeniably smart, but really and oddly not that smart either.

One solution may be to just let change happen. There are still very innovative people trying to make big differences, and the result is an outpouring of big differences, though it seems that things aren't changing fast enough, yet too fast all at the same time. We can question their motives and be aghast at some of the consequences. It is the throes and chaos of change. Not all change is driven by purity and light, and some is whimsical or stupid or impulsive, in short, wild and unstoppable.

Energy has always sought a lower level. The result is that someone will no

Re:The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[PingPongBoy]

> extra $50 ... support a wife and ...

Interesting, looking at the Rachel Jeffs story, her father Warren Jeffs had 70 wives (50 kids), but he was running a $100M empire.

Yes, you do have to think big, apparently.

Re:The gig economy has been about this since day 1

[david_thornley]

This "gig economy" is similar: young people work "on the side"

One of the goals of the gig economy is to replace regular jobs, so it's no longer "on the side". Getting a real low-skill job is harder than it used to be.

If / when

[nehumanuscrede]

driverless cars actually become a thing, this will become a non-issue.

It will go from minimum-wage to no wage.

Though I suppose they'll still need someone to actually move package from delivery vehicle to home.

Unless they're gonna install a vehicle mounted trebuchet.

Re:If / when

[crow]

Amazon has a special PDF that you print out and set where you want to have your packages delivered, then send them a photo of it. The robot in the delivery vehicle will place the package exactly where the paper was in the photo. It must be within 3 feet of your driveway, but they're working on expanding that for drone-deliverable packages. Soon light-weight packages will be deliverable to your back porch or even a balcony.

[This post brought to you by the years 2019 and 2022. You get the idea--there are plenty of solutions that they can easily implement once they have the self-driving part done.]

Re:If / when

[Altrag]

I can't see that working..
a) Being at the end of your driveway is basically begging someone to steal it. Even in a high end neighborhood that would be risky if you aren't home to pick it up (and if you were, they could just text you and have you to walk to the car.)

b) Printed? Who has a printer anymore? I mean an actual working one, not that WinXP-era inkjet you've been keeping around "just in case you need to print something" but probably will have dry ink by the time you get around to plugging it in and no driver support past Vista?

Re:If / when

[Anonymous Coward]

But who will have a dump on your driveway?

Not to mention...

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason americans have become so complacent about getting shit cheap even if somebody else is getting fucked is because usually said people have been/still are being fucked themselves, and without a better company that is ACTUALLY AND VERIFIABLY BETTER, paying more just means being a bigger sucker and not necessarily helping improve the status quo.

America continues sliding further down the shitter because there *IS NO TRANSPARENCY* making the sort of informed decisions that would allow capitalism to work and be beneficial to all, impossible to achieve.

Capitalism only works with perfect information symmetry, the same as the necessary government transparency (including intelligence agencies!) to make democracy work. You can remain opaque for a short while when a specific operation, or external threat renders it necessary, but the longer you allow it to happen the more out of control the powers and abilities of the 'black box' will get, same as DRM, same as undisclosed government contracts, same as 'casting couch' activities.

Information asymmetry is the biggest threat to every aspect of the world (dis)order, and only by providing symmetry can the common folk make informed decisions that will allow them to wrest control back from the wealthy/politically connected few, the indignantly proud, the obscenely corrupt.

captcha was 'leftward', why yes it is... under some definitions of 'left'.

Surely not

[JustNiz]

But Bezos is a democrat... you know... that party that is all about the people.

Re:Surely not

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahah right. Yes, progressives (yes, including the European variety) care about the needs of the little people just like US republicans care about their freedom. They're both tyrannical hypocrites when it comes to abusing the state for their own ends.

Re:Surely not

[OzPeter]

But Bezos is a democrat... you know... that party that is all about the people.

Sure .. and he personally signed off on the working conditions of these drivers, all the while rubbing his hands while gleefully cackling about world domination, yet cursing Musk for already having the rockets to do it.

Re:Surely not

[Anonymous Coward]

But Bezos is a democrat... you know... that party that is all about the people.

Sure .. and he personally signed off on the working conditions of these drivers, all the while rubbing his hands while gleefully cackling about world domination, yet cursing Musk for already having the rockets to do it.

If this were a Koch brothers' company, I'm sure you'd come to their defense with a similar rationalization. Or maybe Bezos knows that 'talking' the Democrat line provides him with cover of unwitting followers such as yourself.

Re:Surely not

[Mashiki]

Sure .. and he personally signed off on the working conditions of these drivers

Funny thing, he probably did. He and the board discussed ways that they could make more money, and someone suggested using side-cuts in employment law aka gig-type jobs, or temp agencies which pay below the minimum wage because someone else it taking a cut. Not only now did they not have to worry about various taxes because of it, they reduced the other costs associated with maintaining a fleet and passed the costs onto other people.

Re:Surely not

[Anonymous Coward]

Bull shit. Jeff Bezos is famously a Libertarian (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/08/07/the-politics-of-jeff-bezos/?utm_term=.8338c41d7c7a)

One of the supposed reasons for his HQ2 plan is that he wants to get away from the Liberals in Seattle.

Re:Surely not

[JustNiz]

I was being sarcastic.

Re:Surely not

[JustNiz]

Of course. That's business. The most successful companies are always trying to wangle a better deal for themselves. As long as there is one remaining worker that will put up with such crap conditions, there will be some company that keeps trying it on.

The real people to blame are the employees who just silently bend over and take whatever the management throws at them without ever daring to group together and stand up for themselves. Is unionizing not even an option there?

Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[greenwow]

for much of my adult life, I have no sympathy. I'm working several hours more than than that seven days a week. Most of my friends in tech are too.

Re:Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[hey!]

Which illustrates why "solidarity" was a principle of the labor movement, back when there was one in this country. It was also the name of the labor union in Poland that broke the power of the Communist Party.

That is how do you deal with the fact you're too politically insignificant and an indivdidual to do anything about being screwed. Get together with enough other insignificant people that you're not insignificant. It's mind boggling to me that people react with stories of people being treated like shit by claiming they get treated even shittier, as if that were something to be proud of.

Re:Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's mind boggling to me that people react with stories of people being treated like shit by claiming they get treated even shittier, as if that were something to be proud of.

This is the american "individualism" mentality or for the more educated as "objectivism" philosophy is being sold. I've stopped having my mind boggled by american stupidity, ignorance and anti-solidarity. They are like a bunch of dimwitted kids who eat propaganda day in and day out about how good their lives are and can be. They are lika a bunch of abused people, that are so abused they no longer can feel for other abused people other than contempt for not being abused enough. American society seems today to be mostly built on envy and jaundice, nothing but contempt for each other, nothing but ill wishes, nothing but hate if someone is happy, it's a sick society where someone has health and gets envious of someone receiving help for ill health.

Re:Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[Anonymous Coward]

Having no sympathy for them means you have no sympathy for yourself.

Accepting these conditions as inevitable is what leads to worse and worse conditions for the worker.

If you want to change things for yourself, you have to care enough to change them for others, too.

But I mean, you don't care because you work hard, right? So screw everyone else if they're not happy with how hard they have to work, right?

Fucks sake, some people.

Re:Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. Glad I wasn't the only one who saw this comment and thought "This guy is digging his own fucking grave."

Re:Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[Anonymous Coward]

and your post is the progressive 'apologist' mentality that misrepresents individualism with powerlessness in order to suggest that the only way to go is collectivization.

Re:Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[110010001000]

And you have "slow internet" too, right? Such BS.

Re:Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[cmdr_klarg]

for much of my adult life, I have no sympathy. I'm working several hours more than than that seven days a week. Most of my friends in tech are too.

Then you're a damn fool, just like most of your friends.

Re:Asd someone that's worked Seattle Hundreds...

[Anonymous Coward]

"So lazy I work 70 hour weeks for pennies and I don't complain."

I was recently interviewing with a few tech companies and I have been using a backhanded measure for work/life balance. I typically ask the interviewers what sort of work life balance they expect, to which they all lie or avoid talking about a 40-hour work week. I then follow up with a baited statement of how people around my current office seem to think 40 hours is enough and I always need put in those extra hours to 50-60 hours a week to get "real work" done, joking that I don't know how people can manage on only 40 hours to push the innovation envelope. This usually pulls the interviewer out into an honest remark that gives me a much better gauge of the true amount of work involved.

I understand entrepreneurial work isn't easy and to create something you really do have to invest a lot. The problem is, I'm not the entrepreneur so don't expect me to slave away at your boss's (...) boss's vision for pennies with minimal ROI. If it's a startup and I have a lot to gain or I'm starting my own business then sure, I'm going to push myself. If it's just for your benefit, screw off. You get what you pay for and you should know that.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

UK, not US

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an American focused site.. Since brits have a plethora of protective laws preventing this sort of thing that go way beyond what's actually needed, save this whiny lefty garbage for slashdot.co.uk

This is obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

It's really staggering that anyone is surprised that a corporation like Amazon wouldn't abuse its workers for profit.

Don't forget, they own the Washington Post as well.

Don't like it, quit, move some place cheaper, etc

[Anonymous Coward]

It blows my mind that people put up with government stealing from them and then bitch about the free market. You have a choice in the market for jobs, but you don't have a choice for government. I worked a shit job for several months after I graduated from college. I *chose* a path that seemed illogical, but with a bit of confidence in yourself you can do better. The reason I chose a shit job was because I didn't want to take a full time job and I had part of my costs of living paid or at least a good deal as a result of living in the suburbs (ie it's MUCH cheaper than living in a city even accounting for a "good" full time college level job). From there I started two businesses. Both succeeded, but I needed about six months for the one to take off and three years for the other. Stop blaming other people for your poor choices in life. Yes- living off $9 / hr is a challenge. It should also be incentive to grow up a bit and find a better job.

Their work ethic is crap.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll start having feels for Amazon drivers when they stop throwing my packages onto my porch from the driveway. And yes, I sent the videos to Amazon not that they care either.

Re:Their work ethic is crap.

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch this video and tell me you still feel sorry for the 11-hour workday of the amazon driver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Their work ethic is crap.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you they constantly leave things out in the open even in the rain. I have had 3 items ruined in the rain in the last 6 months. I have a mud room that is unlocked and signs up to leave the items there.

Keeping a stiff upper lip

[boudie2]

Sacrifices have to be made in order to pay for the next royal wedding. And then in a couple of years the next royal divorce.

I really don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as I have 2nd day delivery on the plastic Chinese tchotchkes which I ordered, Im a happy camper.

Bitching about long hours as a delivery driver? You probably shouldn't have partied so hard with the frat boys, huh?

Itâ(TM)s not even in US its in UK

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mirror recently did a similar story on Amazon warehouse employees being abused as they put it. Although mention nothing about any labor violations or that people are really doing anything more then a hard day of manual labor which obviously with lower education or a person needing a job would gladly take. I have no doubt Amazon does not pay very well for any of these positions including warehouse workers, delivery people or even air plane pilots who have also complained. But what really did anyone expect? If you donâ(TM)t like it, go find another job.

Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[rsilvergun]

she took them for granted. Given Trump's very highly publicized flaws (p****ygate, his rambling speeches, his decades of poor business decisions) she assumed nobody in their right mind would vote for him. Hence the 'Deplorables' line. What she failed to account for is that people _want_ economic populism. They _want_ the government to take action to better their lives. Trump promised all that (even as he ran with a party who's central plank is laissez faire capitalism).

And no, that is not me. I'm a Democratic Socialist. A Bernie Bro. A Justice Democrat. All members of the working class are welcome in my tent. The aristocracy can enter too, but with some caveats. Mainly that we stop bending society to satisfy their extravagant whims and desires.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Anonymous Coward]

No - they wanted the government to GET OUT OF THEIR LIVES and do the job it was supposed to do - like stop illegal immigration which takes jobs from the working class. They wanted government to stop giving welfare to refugees when the homeless problem is out of control in the US (and once again being reported on now that the Democratic Socialist it out of office).

You don't welcome the working class - you think they're morons and stupid and nothing more than cattle for you to control "she assumed nobody in their right mind would vote for him" (also the hallmark of a "democratic socialist").

And no, his tax plan isn't going to fucking kill you - the standard deductions were raised which will cover the great majority of those losing the deductions from state taxes and mortgage interest AND (get this) help the poor working class which don't own homes and NEVER itemize their deductions. (Again, witness the hallmark of the "democratic socialist").

America did NOT abandon it's working class - Democrat Socialists (like yourself) with wide eyed dreams of a world-wide utopian vision bought on the backs of the working class to pay for it and reap none of the rewards (and still being enacted within the EU) did.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Anonymous Coward]

I keep hearing stories about "illegals stealing our jobs" but I haven't really seen any evidence of that. What I see are illegals doing work that Americans don't want or can't afford to take - no American is going to roof houses for $7/hr and if you can find any to pick fruit Americans don't seem to be able (or willing) to keep up. Likewise, I see jobs available for groundskeepers and janitorial services (also heavy on illegals) available, yet none of the WHITE people I see panhandling on the street are willing to take those jobs.

Take your fake news elsewhere asshole, we aren't buying.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me a job posting for a groundskeeper or janitorial position (written in English). The organization I work for uses a contractor for all cleaning and maintenance who recruits people directly from South America. Americans never even have a chance to get those jobs.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are a democratic socialist then you should have no problems with getting raped by taxes. Stop complaining.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Altrag]

a party who's central plank is laissez faire capitalism

Sadly, its worse than that. They want the government out of the picture as long as profits are rolling in, but as soon as shit goes south they're quite happy to beg for giant bailouts on the back of the taxpayer rather than simply letting failed companies fail as should happen in a laissez faire system.

If we look at ISPs (with all the recent flutter over net neutrality..) Their main argument against NN is that regulations are bad competition will fix it. Yet those same ISPs are continually trying to block competition, frequently by lobbying for you guessed it .. regulations .. that impede if not outright block new competitors.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[DNS-and-BIND]

A socialist that likes working class people? RLY? In my experience socialists despise the working class and abuse them for failing to vote in what they deem to be the workers' best interests. Orwell wrote about this extensively. Remember, socialists don't like the poor, they just hate the rich.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Mashiki]

And no, that is not me. I'm a Democratic Socialist.

Then I'm going to tell you to look north to Canada. Now you're going to look at the state of Ontario and Alberta post NDP. Those are the same values that said political party promised, and pushed. Those same two provinces suffered financially and economically under the garbage you're pushing. So much so that my sister no travels 5hrs one-way to see a family doctor. They used to have a doctor that would come every other day of the week, but they cut the money out of that and gave themselves a raise. I guess they really like those working class people who work in resource extraction and so on.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Anonymous Coward]

Pattygate!? Was Trump stealing Pattycakes!? He stole 40 cakes!? That's as many as four tens, and that's terrible!

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[drinkypoo]

Sadly, its worse than that. They want the government out of the picture as long as profits are rolling in,

Even that isn't true. Corporations frequently write legislation, then hand it off to their bought congresscritters for introduction. And then there's that whole dollars == speech thing... No, the right-wingers are not conservatives. They are populists, who want control of both business and morality. And what's more, their revulsion for personal freedom makes them fascists.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Anonymous Coward]

You should at least change up the wording before you post reposted garbage. People can google your text and see it's been pasted all over the internet, verbatim, often by Russian accounts. But I don't think you actually expected a human being to believe you, that would be idiotic of you.

Re:Clinton didn't want to be rid of them

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes - there's that democratic socialism intellectual elitism

What I see are illegals doing work that Americans don't want or can't afford to take - no American is going to roof houses for $7/hr and if you can find any to pick fruit Americans don't seem to be able (or willing) to keep up

Frankly I'd like to make panhandling ILLEGAL - but these self-same smarmy democratic socialists say it has to be legal and then they give the panhandlers money because it makes them feel good about themselves so that they're earning $20/hour for doing NOTHING (and that's tax free).
If you stopped the illegals from coming in here and taking "the jobs that American's won't do for half minimum wage" (oh, sorry - let me include your racism "the jobs that WHITE people won't do for half minimum wage") the companies would have to pay the legal minimum wage. But you don't want THAT either because you like your cheap houses and food.

Take your irrational stupid self elsewhere asshole - your social democracy is dead.

Do your job more efficiently or find a new one

[Anonymous Coward]

They could kick it up a notch like everyone else in the world does when it's crunch time. Everyone works longer hours this time of year (except the desk jockeys raping their coworkers at the company christmas party)

Re:Do your job more efficiently or find a new one

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not exactly rape. I don't know what you'd call it, but sticking your finger in the vagina of a coworker and rolling it around is not what I'd call rape. It's more like a friendly handshake.

Trump is a symptom

[rsilvergun]

not the cause. The cause is 40 years of stagnant wages as all the gains from decades of increased productivity go to the top 1%.

The working class actually tried to organize. Remember Occupy WallStreet? It was shut down by a coordinated effort of the FBI and local police using legal tools put in place by the Patriot Act that everybody pinkie swore would never be used against American Citizens.

What gets my goat is the same folks who keep putting these jokers in power yell the loudest about government overreach except when it screws with somebody they don't like. Whether it's liberal elites, Muslims, college students or just plain whatever racial background they don't like. It's all a scam. It's how the Aristocracy has maintained power for centuries: get the working class to blame their plight on somebody else (Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, Mongolians, the Untouchable class, whatever) while they laugh all the way to the bank. Works too.

You fail so completely.

[Hognoxious]

I see that Amazon requires it's drivers to be 21 or older. What was that about being for teens to make extra money again?

What was that about apostrophes again?

Re:You fail so completely.

[sjames]

That has to be the weakest come back ever. It only makes you look stupid and petty in addition to simply wrong.

Re:You fail so completely.

[Hognoxious]

That's not even the half of it.

Mind your head, replacement shovel coming down.

Bezos

[Anonymous Coward]

Bezos > Trump

Investigation completed ...

[CaptainDork]

... after the holidays.

The Driving and Vehicle Standards Agency has vowed to investigate after drivers contacted them to complain about conditions.

THis is why Unions were invented.

[goombah99]

The history of the trade Unions in the US starts with Train Unions. And those formed not to demand higher pay but to demand better working conditions, less overwork and gaurenteed return to home after days traveling far from home. Removal of bars in company towns was another demand (train workers were often left to rot in Railtoad owned hotels (bunkhouses) far from home until such a time as they were needed. They had to pay the hotel cost to the owners and they were in the middle of no where so the only thing to do was drink. Which created alcoholics other railroaders were afraid to work with.

THey need a union. that's what unions are for.

Re:THis is why Unions were invented.

[Anonymous Coward]

Daddy, what's a "union"?

Re:THis is why Unions were invented.

[Durrik]

Not only that, there were extreme safety concerns too. It use to be said that you could tell how long a brakeman had been working for the railroad by how many fingers he had left. If he had all of them he was a rookie.

Brakemen use to have to couple the cars together. Even though there were the same sort of couplers that are used today back then the railroads thought it was cheaper to use the old method. The brakeman held a loop of steel between the two cars as they were pushed together and then pulled his hand back at the last second. Then two pins were hammered into place in the couplers to hold the steel loop in place and the cars together. If there were a fraction of a second too slow getting their hands out of the way they lost fingers. The railway unions helped force the railways to go to the then patented automatic couplers. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_coupling#Link_and_pin).

Brakes on the cars were also controlled by those big wheels you see at the top of the cars in the old photos. Going around a corner the brakemen had to apply the brakes to the cars to make sure they didn't derail. And there were never enough brakemen for every car on the train, so they would have to jump between cars on the moving train to apply and release the brakes. Again there was a then patented invention that used air pressure from the engine to trigger the brakes on the cars, again the companies didn't care about human life and focused on profit. The railway unions helped fix that.

The brakemen also had to often run ahead of the train to do the switching. Since switching was another one of those things that could have been automated but didn't. Trains were suppose to stop so that the switching could be done in time and the brakemen get back aboard, but time is money and you know what that means.

There's a reason that the railway owners were called robber barons. And there were a lot of things they did that we would object to, that unions helped to fix.

I am in no way saying that unions are pure and benevolent organizations. Often they're corrupt, and as greedy as the people running the corporations. They have their place, and there are a lot of instances in the 2010s that they should come back. The Amazon story is a good example of it. Uber is another good example. A lot of other areas in high tech could use them too. All of these aren't for wages as the parent to the post said, but for working conditions and safety. When there is too much power in the hands of the employers the employees suffer, and there needs to be a balance.

Re:THis is why Unions were invented.

[thegarbz]

I am in no way saying that unions are pure and benevolent organizations. Often they're corrupt, and as greedy as the people running the corporations. They have their place, and there are a lot of instances in the 2010s that they should come back.

That's very grey thinking in the black vs white, red vs blue Slashdot of now. Careful before the new folk come and lynch you.

Re:THis is why Unions were invented.

[drinkypoo]

THey need a union. that's what unions are for.

Why do we need all these redundant unions when all workers need the same protections? Why can't we just protect all workers from these abuses? Isn't that what government is for? Why should we have all of these private interests involved?

Re: THis is why Unions were invented.

[kenh]

These are independent contractors, working for sub contractors, that in turn are paid per-piece by Amazon. Sure, these drivers could form a union, but as they are self-employed it seems kind of pointless.

These aren't hourly or salaried workers, these people are their own bosses.

Re: THis is why Unions were invented.

[david_thornley]

So, we need new protections for the gig economy. It used to be that companies hired people to do jobs, rather than contract out to someone who contracted with individuals.

A very common appearance as it seems...

[no-body]

What is the underlying reason for this happening?
Or - is it required to obtain certain goals and what would they be?

Who benefits from it and why are other's paying with their health and well-being?

Reminds me of certain animal species where dominant males kill offspring fathered by other males....

Maybe there is or has been an advantage in evolution for that, but what is the advantage now.

Nothing exists in human behavior without advantage, being it real or imaginary fantasy - i. e. mindfuck.

I bet

[Anonymous Coward]

They use their own cars too

Re: I bet

[kenh]

And hey get a per KM allowance to cover the expense - your point?

Re:Trump is a symptom

[I'm New Around Here]

The working class actually tried to organize. Remember Occupy WallStreet?

You mean that collection of dopers and criminals that didn't have jobs and just wanted the banks to give them free money? What definition of "working class" are you using, when the working class was working while those idiots were protesting?

Shit for brains

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much describes the Amazon model.

Funny you should mention that

[rsilvergun]

See here.. The difference is what you were doing was always recognized as illegal but the law was not being enforced. What Uber's doing is generally being recognized as legal.

And you should have been outraged. You were being exploited. Just because there is a time in your life when you were no longer being exploited doesn't mean you weren't. I see this periodically, where people wonder why we need all these regulations, laws and rules when the problems they're supposed to solve are gone. What this usually means is either a) the problem doesn't affect me anymore so I don't see why it's a problem (your case) or worse b) the regulations and laws prevent the problem from happening and people can't understand that without those laws the problem would come back...

Don't like it? QUIT!

[p51d007]

Amazon holding a gun to your head? No? Then quit. Oh? That is the ONLY job as a 20-50 something year old that you are qualified to do? That begs the question...in school, what were you doing? Skipping school, drinking, partying etc? Getting girls pregnant? Sorry, you want the "Amazon gravy", you gotta work hard.

Meanwhile, in the US

[Applehu Akbar]

Just yesterday I encountered a semi-old couple who were perfectly happy working out of an RV doing seasonal deliveries for Amazon and giving Uber rides as a fill-in.

just wait for a bad crash with maybe some deaths

[Joe_Dragon]

just wait for a bad crash with maybe some deaths and what will take a few $1M pay outs may hurt amazons bank account

forced to take the gps routes? black cabs are bett

[Joe_Dragon]

forced to take the gps routes? black cabs are better with maps in there heads.

Let's see that app pass the knowledge test

I don't get this, genuinely I don't.

[argStyopa]

Company: Here, will you do this job? We'll pay you $200.
Person: Um, sure.
(After working 50 hours to complete task, resulting in $4/hour pay)
Person: Hey, you cheated me! That's only $4 an hour!
Company: We asked if you'd do it for $200, you said yes.
Person: I know I did, but I regret that!

(Media: THIS IS UNFAIR!)

Re:I don't get this, genuinely I don't.

[Baron_Yam]

It depends on the economy. If things are great (from a wider perspective than that of just the 1%), nobody would take these jobs and conditions would improve (or the problem would be avoided).

If you have a large enough bunch of people desperate for money, though, suddenly they don't really have much choice but to be exploited.

We have laws about such things because history shows us enough rich people are OK with defacto slavery that if you let them, they'll enslave everyone they can.

UPS driver here

[Anonymous Coward]

We are all working 60-70 hour weeks (70 hours is our DOT limit, btw) Monday-Saturday. Just for reference, but we certainly are getting paid well to do it

Stop blaming Trump for everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop blaming Trump for everything.

He wasn't in the picture.

Keep losing elections.

Re:Trump is a symptom

[Mashiki]

Occupy WallStreet? The organization created by communists in Canada in order to try and push communist controls. Yeah everyone remembers them.

A muiltinational company not giving a fuck...

[schleimkeim]

More news at eleven. Seriously, just stop buying their crap.

Re:Don't like it? QUIT!

[schleimkeim]

That is such an American viewpoint you have there.

C'mon..

[Anonymous Coward]

Drivers can't blame Amazon because they break the law by exceeding speed limits and work over a legal work shift. Discuss with HR, if you get fired form a class-action lawsuit and go work for Uber or Lyft and stop whining.

Re: C'mon..

[kenh]

Drivers are self-employed independent contractors, they don't have an HR department.

I worked 80+ hour weeks when I was younger

[scourfish]

I had flunked out of college for being flaky and immature, and not going to class. I spent a few summers working 80+ hour weeks working at an amusement park as a garbage collector. My work ethic was terrible, my attitude was not professional, and I had no other employable skills. The awful job was the result of my apathy and poor decisions. I eventually matured, went back to school, and pursued a career. I wouldn't want to work at the amusement park again, but honestly, if that opportunity didn't exist, I would have been worse off. I'd imagine that is the case for a lot of other workers in these dead end jobs.

Then don't do it.

[damnitalready]

Not getting enough compensation for the work you do, then don't do the work. Don't take the jobs and then cry about what you're getting in return.

Either people who CAN work for that wage will do the work, or Amazon will have to hike the wage to get people to do it.

But FFS, quit crying about an arrangement you put yourself in AND continue to operate in.

Direct concequnce of gig economy

[Anonymous Coward]

The big issue here is not this specific case, but that companies have realized that via the internet they can contract "independent contractors" directly using the so called gig economy. This allows them to legally distance themselves from all types of regulation including minimum wage laws, mandatory breaks and on road hours of services described in this article.

Unless regulation change to hold companies accountable to the same laws for emplyee's and independent contractors senario's of this type will become more frequent rather then less.

Re:Don't like it? QUIT!

[k6mfw]

other day on CSPAN2 they interviewed a author that recently published a book about drug dealers, abusive cops. Author mentioned nobody seeks out a career as a drug dealer, almost all make very little money except those very few at top. It is also hard work, long hours, being on the streets even when very cold for all day or night, fear of getting robbed or busted. Reason why many go into drug dealing is because "it is a company town" with no other options.

I thought slavery was illegal in the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

Same with monopolies.

Re: I thought slavery was illegal in the U.S.

[kenh]

I thought this article was about Amazon UK?

Servo

[Anonymous Coward]

No different to console operators 10 hours no break and on your feet.

Re: Servo

[kenh]

How many days a week?

Define 'no break'. You don't get a meal break? They lock the bathrooms?

Being in a temperature-controlled room for 10 hours, four shifts a week is not 'just like' driving a delivery truck 60-70/hrs a week.

Look a little closer

[kenh]

First off, this is Amazon UK, and the 'Amazon Drivers' work for shipping contractors, not Amazon. They didn't apply to Amazon for the job, they aren't paid by Amazon, on what basis are they considered Amazon employees? Here in America, countless packages from Amazon are delivered by either UPS or USPS, yet no one considers them 'Amazon Employees', and they are paid better than minimum wages. (The greatest complaint from UPS drivers in America are the number of overtime hours UPS asks them to work, at time and a half, during the holiday season.)

Second, this is the Gig Economy, and these workers are trying to turn a 'pick-up' task that pays poorly into something that can support a family - it ain't gonna happen, not as independent contractors working at a per-piece job where they they are expected to pay for petrol, the vehicle, upkeep on the vehicle, and the insurance on the vehicle out of a few cents per kilometer.

Re: just wait for a bad crash with maybe some deat

[kenh]

The drivers are self-employed independent contractors, why would Amazon be on the hook for million dollar settlements?

Because their return address is on the box in the car when it hits someone? Do lawyers go rummaging through the boxes on a UPS truck when a big brown truck is involved in a traffic accident?

Re: just wait for a bad crash with maybe some deat

[Joe_Dragon]

UPS is the shipping co. Fedex is the one that missed classified drivers as 1099. Any ways in a court case if they can prove that the level of control makes them non self-employed then the shipping co / amazon may be on the hook. In this case Amazon will be hard pressed to say each driver is there own shipping co.

Re:Trump is a symptom

[david_thornley]

Perhaps a bigger problem with OWS was that they were against stuff, not for things. They never did come up with a reform plan that people could get behind. If they did, they could have formed a group in the Democratic party to push for financial reforms. The demonstrations would have helped get the movement going, but shutting them down wouldn't have stopped the Occupy movement.