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Amazon Opens 'Surveillance-Powered, No-Checkout Convenience Store' (geekwire.com)

An anonymous reader quotes GeekWire: The first Amazon Go grocery and convenience store will open to the public Monday in Seattle -- letting any person with an Amazon account, the Amazon Go app and a willingness to give up more of their personal privacy than usual simply grab anything they want and walk out, without going through a checkout line... After shoppers check in by scanning their unique QR code, overhead cameras work with weight sensors in the shelves to precisely track which items they pick up and take with them. When they leave, they just leave. Amazon Go's systems automatically debit their accounts for the items they take, sending the receipt to the app. In my first test of Amazon Go this past week, my elapsed time in the store was exactly 23 seconds -- from scanning the QR code at the entrance to exiting with my chosen item...

The company says the tracking is precise enough to distinguish between multiple people standing side-by-side at a shelf, detecting which one picked up a yogurt or cupcake, for example, and which one was merely browsing. The system also knows when people pick up items and put them back, ensuring that Amazon doesn't dock anyone's account for milk or chips when they simply wanted to read the label. The idea is to "push the boundaries of computer vision and machine learning" to create an "effortless experience for customers," said Dilip Kumar, Amazon Go vice president of technology, after taking GeekWire through the store this past week... Apart from the kitchen staff preparing fresh food at the back, we saw only two workers in the 1,800-square-foot Amazon Go store during our visit: one at the beer and wine section to check IDs, and another just inside the entrance to greet customers.

TechCrunch calls it "Amazon's surveillance-powered no-checkout convenience store," adding "the system is made up of dozens and dozens of camera units mounted to the ceiling, covering and recovering every square inch of the store from multiple angles."

The Seattle Times reports that the store "was also criticized by grocery-store workers' unions, which feared an effort to automate the work done by cashiers, the second-most-common job in the U.S."

266 comments

  1. we are paying them to train their tracking NN by elcor · · Score: 1

    this is very clever here is how it works: At the end of each day each store's NN is mutated in relationship with the delta$ at the end of each week, the NN with the highest delta$ are culled out and replaced by a cross breed of the NNs with the lowers delta$

    1. Re:we are paying them to train their tracking NN by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      posting to revert mod misclick...

      I suspect this is true and on the road to success it will have some rough patches where it commits lots of fraud and falsely charges people for reasons that nobody can provide a valid explanation for. :)

    2. Re:we are paying them to train their tracking NN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No no, the amount of customer-buying-habit-linked-to-identity data will FAAAAR outvalue anything you could physically steal or walk away with from their retail store. It's a write off, the DATA is their aim. THEY WANT YOUR SOUL.

      Once they know what makes you tick, they buy you with induced enticements and you are become their machinery. This is literally how Amazon operates. The Borg at least had an meritocratic streak by comparison.

    3. Re:we are paying them to train their tracking NN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had to look up meritocratic....

      an elite group of people whose progress is based on ability and talent rather than on class privilege or wealth. 2. a system in which such persons are rewarded and advanced: The dean believes the educational system should be a meritocracy.

    4. Re:we are paying them to train their tracking NN by adfraggs · · Score: 1

      This is what I tell a lot of my non-tech friends. This new wave AI that companies are building will do things that seem smart but cannot be interpreted. The machine can't explain itself and we can't explain the machine. This is part of what some people are talking about when they mention the dangers of AI. It doesn't have to turn into an skynet in order to have the potential for bad things to happen, it can be a lot more subtle.

    5. Re: we are paying them to train their tracking NN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's why you keep a sledgehammer nearby.

    6. Re: we are paying them to train their tracking NN by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Damn, I don't have one of those... Oh, I know! I'll order one from Amazon!

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    7. Re:we are paying them to train their tracking NN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People have already declared the technology to be racist, to the point where Google had to remove images of gorillas from its datasets.

    8. Re: we are paying them to train their tracking NN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > And that's why you keep a sledgehammer nearby.

      You're not allowed to do that, Anonymous!

    9. Re:we are paying them to train their tracking NN by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      Who identified themselves withthe gorillas?

  2. Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Those pushing so hard for $15 minimum wage don't seem to realize this, but they've been instrumental in introducing economic distortions that won't just make full automation more economically attractive, but that will make full automation economically mandatory for any business that wants to survive. Socialists are always their own worst enemy. Their lack of understanding about the true nature of economics means that their policies will always be pushed too far, and will eventually destroy the economy that is hosting these socialists.

    1. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You seem to think this situation was avoidable. It was not. The higher minimum wage only made it happen faster.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    2. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since you don't read anything for the last 20 years, Amazon has been pushing this cost-cutting surface-reducing since they were a bookstore. You know nothing about it I guess, amazingly, despite all the books on it? Gee.

      Meanwhile there are still no fast food joints actually using significantly more robots than they already were. Automated fry machines existed since the 90's, Amazon still doesn't have a blimp warehouse, etc. Vaporware as of now.

      You're eating spoon-fed dogshit from the CEO class and loving it like a toady. Eat up child, until the trickling ends and you're left realizing you're just another hapless Republican apologist for the bankster class.

    3. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a few hundred years now the trend had been for partial automation that augments a human's ability to produce value. Full automation has never been feasible, and typically is not anywhere near profitable, at least when wages are at a reasonable level. But now that wages are so artificially out of whack, full automation is becoming profitable. This will be totally disastrous for most workers. It didn't have to be like this, of course. If socialists had just understood even elementary economics they would have known how harmful their policies are. Not all work is of equal value, and pretending that such faux 'equality' exists will be ruinous.

    4. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, we'll have some fully automatic robots come and ridicule you and your comment in a few years, once the gp has been proven to be correct.

    5. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A dollar would be cheaper. Good idea!

    6. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya, you're an idiot. This isn't a socialist issue or a minimum wage issue. Robots are going to take many jobs, it's all about cost vs benefit. Humans cost a lot, break down easily, complain, call in sick, cause liability...this list is endless.

      Robots will have an initial cost and maintenance. Once that is cheaper than humans (which is helped by wages increasing) humans will be out a job. So go ahead and blame the socialist, but you're an idiot for doing so.

    7. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But we don't NOW, so the minimum wage NOW doesn't really factor in. It also doesn't make robot tech any more reliable, tested, feasible, cheap, ubiquitous. So far, vaporware.

      Sure, someday your current vaporware will warrant real concerns, when it becomes a reality in the future. Until then you're just anachronistically whining about poor people getting slightly more money.

      It's as retarded as anything Republicans do online, pretending to be economists.

    8. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, its not the wages but the cost of automation that is rapidly decreasing. A few dollars per hour wages makes no difference, this is where things are going. Same for all the blue collar jobs involving driving (truck drivers, cab drivers etc.) in the next 4-8 years...actual wages or increases are irrelevant, it'll be wildly more profitable to kick those humans to the curb and replace them with a self driving car.

      While the inevitability of this change is obvious - the necessity of just letting it race through the economy full bore (even though its obvious its coming) seems crazy. Our government (political parties) are corrupt and do what the large companies want (which is most profitable) so no thoughts of the consequences of this are considered... The resulting desperate folks put out of jobs en masse will make the social fabric of the U.S. society even more ripped (between those that have $$ and those that don't...already worse than any time since the 1920's) and more prone to electing crazy's who tell them what they want to hear (the danger there is that we'll eventually get some true nut-wad who sees this as his/her path to a dictatorship...only one presidential democracy in the world hasn't fallen to dictatorship so far in history).

    9. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Aighearach · · Score: 0

      The business morons always make this type of prediction.

      Locally, they said that increasing the minimum wage would destroy the restaurant industry, but in reality poor people spend a higher percent of their income eating out, and the dollars spent at restaurants increased!

      Retail workers spend a higher percent of their pay on retail spending than most workers, because they make less money. Increasing the minimum wage increases retail spending on the types of items that are going to be the biggest "walk-in" sellers.

      This has very little to do with the economics of retail, and everything to do with Amazon's warehouse technology and efforts to make money off it from other industries.

      Robots are cheaper than humans, but does a robot company spend its pay on your product? Maybe if you're making yachts. But if you're selling milk and eggs, employees actually spend a good chunk of their pay at work. The robot has to cost 25% less just to break even, and that is if there are no other disadvantages.

      For stores like Costco that focus on B2B this is likely the future, but perhaps not for most of retail.

    10. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to think this situation was avoidable. It was not. The higher minimum wage only made it happen faster.

      Greed is what made this happen. The fun part is when the statement becomes: "People can't afford food in the US." and the excuse becomes: "We have to pay $0.01/hour to be competitive with the slave labor from Africa." and you're still spouting: "Well if everybody is doing it, of course they have to pay $0.01/hour to their workers."

      No one has to do anything. These corporations could easily pay a living wage, and remain profitable. Rather they have to if they want continued consumerism. We could also mandate it via import tariffs, reductions in worker's visas, fines, or other laws that protect our workforce if they refuse to pay their fair share.

      The greed of those in positions of power however, knows no bounds, and it's because of people like you that they can get away with destroying the livelihoods of everyone for their own selfish gain.

    11. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The higher minimum wage only made it happen faster.

      So then you agree then the higher minimum wage is part of the problem and doesn't do what its proponents intended.

    12. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by William+Baric · · Score: 2

      Some dollar stores (Dollarama in Quebec) have now replaced most of their cashiers with automatic cashiers, and those stores are really not in the B2B market. Between online shopping and machines, there won't be many retail employees 15 years from now.

      Worse, self-driving cars will probably kill most of the remaining retail stores anyway. People will order their milk and bread online, a robot in a warehouse will put it in the delivery car, and the customer will get it at his door. Walmart killed a lot of retail stores, Amazon will kill what's left.

    13. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by fluffernutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Shame on those people for not wanting to work for free! Automation could have been avoided if they would just submit to slavery!

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    14. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      We have record-setting levels of employment (here in California the unemployment level is the 40 years of the current tracking methodology), and we're getting rid of the horrible jobs no sane person wants to do. How anybody can think that's not great news is beyond me. I was originally against the minimum wage increase because I thought it was unnecessarily high and would increase unemployment and inflation, but it has clearly proved a success: here we are somehow with the poor getting more pay, near zero unemployment, and near zero inflation.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    15. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      UB quality of life. We need to give all people the real right to food and shelter and Internet.

      I am afraid giving just money will create Mansa problem

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    16. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by youngone · · Score: 1

      The business morons always make this type of prediction./quote>

      No, no it's all the Socialists fault, because:

      Their lack of understanding about the true nature of economics means that their policies will always be pushed too far, and will eventually destroy the economy that is hosting these socialists.

      It must be true because some idiot A/C believes all the far right propaganda.

    17. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you want to pay 10x the price for everything at a supermarket that employs a ton of people to manually track inventory, place orders by fax or phone, individually price each item with a price gun, an extra person to bag everything for you b/c the cashier manually enters the price into the register (no barcode scanners), and pays everyone enough to raise a family of three and afford an easy middle class existence, is closed on weekends, and gives everyone 4 weeks annual leave, benefits, and a retirement plan?

    18. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not what caused the inevitable. While labor automation has increased productivity, the fruits of that productivity are only enjoyed by the 1%. That is the real failure of the capitalist system, the eventual collapse of which is as inevitable as labor automation.

    19. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And people deciding not to shop at those stores the exact instant even 1 error in the payment procedure happens (or when the eventual theft starts up with fake QR codes being scanned, etc) all these stores will find themselves with fewer to no customers.

      Personally if I saw a store like that I don't think I'd ever go in until that day when it's literally the only thing available. Which is further off than you'd think.

    20. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      The price for these capabilities of dropping well faster than half every three years.

      At best it's a three year speed up in bringing these capabilities.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    21. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by adfraggs · · Score: 1

      You'd rather have low skill workers competing with bots in a race to the bottom to see who can do it cheaper? Do you seriously not think that as this technology advanced that the wages on offer wouldn't have started dropping? People will continue say "but a low paying job is better than no job" when in fact that's not true. Ultra-low wages distort employment figures and lead to people dropping off the radar of social security. They can come begging and say they don't have enough to live on but when the records show that they are working 40 hours a week they get dismissed out of hand. You create a whole class of workers that are effectively slaves, living below the poverty line while still slogging their guts out working a full time job. But sure ... "socialism is bad, it will destroy all of society".

    22. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The next thing people like you will be doing is cheering on is the death robots that go around killing off the poor and downtrodden becuase they live a simple lifes and are therefor inferior in every way, you insensative clod!

    23. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      I never said that this is what needs to happen, but as you say with greed being the major factor, we both know this is what will happen.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    24. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Increasing wages, decreasing automation costs and the companies love of money made it possible. Since greed is eternal, the only variables at play are the wages and the automation costs.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    25. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, we allow them to sponge off of businesses that actually make money? We have seen what happens when the government steps in to control prices and wages with Venezuela.

      Right now, we are at full employment. Want a better paying job? Stop whining about the current one and apply for one. We don't need to provoke hyper-inflation by having a minimum wage, which forces businesses to raise their prices anyway.

      Our government cannot afford entitlements. Over half the US budget goes for ever growing entitlements, a pyramid scheme that has worked so far, but is starting to fail. Even with the US population and businesses being the highest taxed population in the entire world, especially factoring in the Obamacare boondoggle. We need to move Social Security to 401ks, and get out of the business of giving handouts.

      Slavery has been gone for over a century. It is their decision if they want to succeed or fail, and there are consequences for actions. Their bad decisions should not affect people who are actually making a living.

    26. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And people deciding not to shop at those stores the exact instant even 1 error in the payment procedure happens (or when the eventual theft starts up with fake QR codes being scanned, etc) all these stores will find themselves with fewer to no customers.

      As if checkout clerks do not routinely make mistakes nowadays. Multiple scans of the same item is not rare, nor are the occasionally mis-labeled barcodes.

      Barcodes, credit/debit cards, etc would all have been dead by now if people stopped shopping after "even 1 error" happened.

      Unlike checkout clerks, it is at least possible to review the footage in Amazon's system to verify any claims of errors.

    27. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The simple fact is that increasing the minimum wage is a huge boon to businesses like restaurants and small local stores.

      A business like a national brand "dollar store" is going to automate first, because they're the biggest and have the lowest potential losses. The maximum amount you can steal from them is much lower, they don't need it to work as well, and they're big. So they can adopt it first.

      Are customers going to pay to go to a restaurant that is just a vending machine with tables next to it? Those have existed for decades and they don't attract many customers who would otherwise buy a restaurant entree.

      What is a retail employee at a dollar store even adding to the transaction? I mean, seriously, please don't have a conversation, there isn't time, you'll hold up the line.

      Businesses where the employee is adding value, such as restaurants, will not only survive but grow. Fast food might turn into vending robots. Maybe convenience stores, too.

    28. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For now... wait until a recession hits, and when businesses can't pay the $50/hour that the hipsters demand, they just will go under, and there will be no jobs. I'm sure people will happily abolish the minimum wage if it gives them a chance at a job. California is a bubble, similar to how Dubai can do what it wants, but it rests on the back of many impoverished workers. The rest of the US outside those coastal cities can't afford to do that, and has to face reality on a daily basis.

    29. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by dryeo · · Score: 2

      Slavery is expensive. Have to feed, house, give medical care and such to the slaves, not to mention the hassle of stopping them from running away. Much cheaper to pay them a pittance and bitch that they're poor.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    30. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by swillden · · Score: 2

      You seem to think this situation was avoidable. It was not. The higher minimum wage only made it happen faster.

      Absolutely... and speed of change is exactly what we don't want. It takes time for people to adapt. Automation is going to displace a lot of people, so it's important that the changeover happen as slowly as possible, to minimize the pain. High minimum wages are a bad idea.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    31. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      How are the customers responding?
      Here in BC, my grocery store introduced some self-checkouts. After they'd been in a bit, usage seems to have dropped off to close to zero. Now they've upgraded them and they don't even take cash anymore, which doesn't seem like a good idea at Dollarama.
      What my grocery store has done, which seems successful, is have all tellers open at the busy times and advertise the fact. It's nice being able to go through the lineup quick, unlike the last time I went to a Dollarama with its one cashier.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    32. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Yes, it was going to happen. Why? Because having to check out is a bad user experience.
      I do not want to wait in line at the store. I also do not want to wait for the waitress to bring my check, take my card, and bring back my check?
      Does this mean that people must go unemployed? Not really the staff can be used to keep the shelves stocked, the store clean, and help customers find products.
      As to complaints that the minimum wage is not enough to raise a family? You are right it is not and was never meant to be. You are supposed to make minimum wage when you are in school or if you have no skills. It is supposed to be enough for one person to survive on or to supplement a spouses income. Frankly, the service that I get from minimum wage workers is already so bad that I do not see the point in increasing it.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    33. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1. They are not working for free.
      2. Raising the wage increases the motivation to automate.
      3. Why all the fuss? Do you us ATMs and online banking? Do you know how many tellers you have put out of work?
      When automation actually provides a better user experience it is going to happen.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    34. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Publix is the same except they never did have any self service isles. Publix is a great store and has been for decades. You walk up to any employee and ask them where something is and more often than not they stop what they are doing and walk you right to it.
      When you go in if any cashers are not checking someone out they are standing right at the front of the checkout isle looking for people to check out.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    35. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NOPE. its the low interest rates that made it possible to get the capital to make these investments. at higher rates employment, and even properly compensated employees were/are the norm.

      but let me step back once more and say its the long-run of ever-changing rates that has

    36. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by adfraggs · · Score: 1

      You're claiming that companies can't afford to pay a minimum wage for their workers in their current position, but somehow there is a job out there for everyone that they just need to apply for where those same companies will pay them more. You understand that's not possible, right? Someone has to end up at the bottom of the pile, that's just unavoidable. That you get to make the fairly absurd claim that this is a "choice" they make is nice for you, I guess it helps you feel better about the 40 million or so people in the US living below an acceptable standard. You clearly have made the "choice" to not be in that position while they've all made the "choice" to live in poverty. Apart from your astonishing ignorance about what keeps people in that position, it's ultimately a logical fallacy to claim that there are jobs out there for all of them to be paid more. It just can't be done.

    37. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by William+Baric · · Score: 2

      From what I've seen, most customers seem to accept them. In the case of the Dollarama I go from time to time, I'd say customers don't have much of a choice anyway. It's either waiting in line for the one remaining cashier (there were four cashiers before), or going to one of the eight automatic cashiers. Of course, the machines Dollarama installed accept cash, including coins.

      If I look at the Maxi (a grocery store) near where I live, the technology was slow to be adopted by customers, but it's now been two years and they are now a significant number of people who got used to them. Maxi also advertises an "all tellers open" time, but as soon as there is some waiting, which happens even when all tellers are open, people with few items go to the automatic cashiers if they are available.

      I'd say the store where automatic cashiers are the least popular is Walmart. The machines they installed don't accept cash and, because of the lack of space, they are not practical for anyone with more than a few items.

      For stores where people buy a lot of items, I'm guessing the real change will be when the technology is integrated directly into the shopping carts.

    38. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      If there was no automation, then I would agree with you. I would not say "huge boon", but I would agree increasing the minimum wage would benefit retail.

      But automation has become so cheap that it is now an option that can be applied to almost every minimum wage job, including jobs in restaurants. Waiters won't be replaced, but automation will hit kitchen employees.

      If people who will lose their minimum wage jobs because of automation can find another one, then maybe restaurants will see a bit of an increase in revenue (certainly not a "huge boon"), but that's a very big if. To me, the most probable consequence of raising the minimum wage will be an increase in automation, which will result in an increase in unemployment, which will result in a decrease of revenue for retail and restaurants.

      I believe the only thing that could create a significant increase in restaurants is Universal Basic Income. So instead of increasing the minimum wage, let's create a Universal Basic Income of $100 per month.

    39. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Yes, lack of options will push the new tech.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    40. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 2

      So, what is your solution.. Let me guess, slavery? It is too easy to claim that the minimum wage is "too high" when it is not you who are getting the minimum wage.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    41. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by houghi · · Score: 1

      Perhaps we can get together and have a law that will allow people to work for free. The Social Labor Act of Voluntary Employment Law.
      We could start with the groups that are hit hardest with unemployment and with the highest crime rates,

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    42. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by AlwinBarni · · Score: 1

      I would just add that as the history teaches us automation was never a problem and has never put people out of work (in a long term), to the contrary it created branches of industry never conceived before, where even more people found employment, not to mention lowering goods prices, so that more people were able to afford more stuff making life quality of ordinary people better. Every time there is a breakthrough the affected industry is shouting that it is the end of the world, yet years later people cannot even imagine living without it, think about blacksmiths, ice delivery service, and on and on.

      In this case I just wander if the savings will reflect the prices of goods in such stores. On the other hand my concern about this technology is quite different, there is no privacy and companies would have too much information about citizens, which should be balanced by proper regulation protecting customers from corporate abuse.

    43. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this guy getting rated insightful. #3 is complete horsehit.

      Arm chair economists for the win in this discussion thread for some reason. Stick to your strengths people.

      a simple google search for actual evidence.

      http://www.aei.org/publication/what-atms-bank-tellers-rise-robots-and-jobs/

      Not only that, but this is a known phenomenon ffs: Jevons Paradox [more efficiently = more demand in the medium/long term] / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

      so no, it ain't the minimum wage. its decreased human productivity (a complex issue) that is driving automation.

    44. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wages have been out of whack for going on 3 decades. Automation is inevitable. Sucking corporate cock is a choice.

    45. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Dollar stores can't get employees around here. You can see how they treat the ones they have around here.

    46. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Have you ever had someone else decide what you eat each day? Try a food bank someday. Money gives people choice.

    47. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      That depends on whose pain you are worried about. Business owners or the poor who's wages have been depressed (stolen) for decades.

    48. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Minimum wage workers are like under-clocked GPU's. Pay people what they are worth and you get better.

    49. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      $8 an hour is almost as bad as free, at that rate you cant afford many basics like proper healthcare. They are slave wage, non-maintenance wages. Most of these people only survive because they are loaded up with welfare programs so basically that low wage employee you subsidize anyway with tax money. You could never dig yourself out of the hole your in because you cant accumulate any savings to use as leverage.

      As for automation, what we need to do is reduce the barriers to retraining and help train people for new jobs through apprenticeship rather than college. This allows people to have satisfaction of earning money right away and would allow people to earn while they learn. Only 10% of the population needs to go to college. Colleges have 70% drop out rates in many cases, so its not a pathway to success, a pathway to failure for most people. College is becoming outdated because you can learn on your own for very low cost because information has become so widely available. Certificates like A+ are another possibility for self learning. So a combination of self learning, and apprenticeships.

      Automation will allow us to raise the minimum wage drastically and with the vastly greater productivity, what we can do is simply reduce the work week to spread the remaining work among more people. This means people work less for the same or more money. People will still make money, they will just work a few hours a week and will have far more free time.

    50. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Store clerking is boring. Nobody really wants to do that or many other kinds of dull repetitive jobs. Good riddance. This class of dull jobs can't be automated fast enough in my opinion.

    51. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by ljw1004 · · Score: 2

      Those pushing so hard for $15 minimum wage don't seem to realize this, but they've been instrumental in introducing economic distortions that won't just make full automation more economically attractive, but that will make full automation economically mandatory for any business that wants to survive. Socialists are always their own worst enemy. Their lack of understanding about the true nature of economics means that their policies will always be pushed too far, and will eventually destroy the economy that is hosting these socialists.

      That doesn't make sense. This kind of automation and grocery store hasn't reduced the amount that our country produces. If anything it's made it produce more efficiently. There's more wealth. The problem remains, as always, how that wealth should be apportioned. Some people (maybe including you) believe the way to apportion that wealth is to have a bunch of poor people work degrading jobs that aren't quite enough for them to get by, and they also must depend upon taxpayer-funded handouts for essentials.

      Is that because you think it's morally the right way to apportion society's wealth? Or because you think there exists no other better way?

    52. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by lexman098 · · Score: 1

      Do you us ATMs and online banking? Do you know how many tellers you have put out of work?

      None.

    53. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try a food bank someday. Money gives people choice.

      Try prison someday. Freedom also gives people choice.

    54. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. They are not working for free.
      2. Raising the wage increases the motivation to automate.
      3. Why all the fuss? Do you us ATMs and online banking? Do you know how many tellers you have put out of work?
      When automation actually provides a better user experience it is going to happen.

      I use ATM's because tellers are not available. I do not use online banking.

    55. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was originally against the minimum wage increase because I thought it was unnecessarily high and would increase unemployment and inflation, but it has clearly proved a success: here we are somehow with the poor getting more pay, near zero unemployment, and near zero inflation.

      The problem is not what happens with high income workers - you can (and often will) easily have a situation where new high income jobs are being created while low income jobs are being lost. This distorts the statistics, leading to low "unemployment" (especially once government games the measurement of "unemployment)). Further, a lot of those low income people will be forced to move somewhere else, which also distorts the numbers.

      Note that the process of losing jobs tends to take several years - automation takes a while to implement.

      Another problem is that low income workers often lose working hours in response to changes in minimum wage, and have to take additional jobs to compensate. That means less time with their families, less time available for education that would give them better opportunities, and more traffic on the roads (leading to more accidents, more delays, more stress, more road rage, etc - not to mention the increased cost of the commute).

      Economist Neumark and Wascher have a book that summarizes the available research and discusses these issues.

      Basically the only clear documented benefit of minimum wage is that it encourages students to stay in school longer - which is likely to have long term benefits both to the individuals and to society.

      Minimum wage is a stupid policy that harms those most in need of help. We would be much better off replacing it with some sort of reverse income tax or UBI - but that isn't in the interests of the politicians looking to ride the left wing ticket into office. It would actually require that they do their jobs, instead of just pretending to do so - and it would lose them the support of a bunch of entrenched special interest groups that benefit from the status quo. So we keep having these foolish discussions on an issue that should be well understood, with the ignorant repeating lots of myths that have long ago been debunked.

    56. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      But automation has become so cheap that it is now an option that can be applied to almost every minimum wage job, including jobs in restaurants.

      You don't understand the technology, and you don't understand the conversation. You don't understand why there are waiters.

      Machines that can vend food are not a new type of automation.

    57. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      I specifically said waiters will not get replaced. What I said is that people working in the kitchen, the one you don't see, are the ones who will be replaced.

    58. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by swillden · · Score: 1

      That depends on whose pain you are worried about. Business owners or the poor who's wages have been depressed (stolen) for decades.

      Which is worse, low wages or no job? Unless you think you're going to somehow force businesses to employ people, or somehow stop automation from being built, that's the choice.

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    59. Re: Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Yeah, what's your point? That some people want poor people in prison like conditions? That some people see only the profit they could make delivering an approved meal?

    60. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      No, there are three choices:

      1> Robust employment with automation
      Jobs that pay well enough people can afford to buy things. Automation that benefits owners, employees and consumers.

      2> anemic employment with low wages and automation,
      Employees can't afford to spend money and automation becomes cheaper and more desirable due to the quality of work paid for and delivered. A climate where capital owners capture an increasing share of improvements.

      3> no automation with increasing authoritarian government and low employment
      Keep jobs plentiful and keep people desperate. Things only get better for the ruling class and we eventually have a increased terrorism and the US slides into a despotic stye of government. Automation is undesirable because then you don't get to lord your wealth over someone.

    61. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by swillden · · Score: 1

      No, there are three choices: 1> Robust employment with automation Jobs that pay well enough people can afford to buy things. Automation that benefits owners, employees and consumers.

      How do you make this happen?

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    62. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      The short answer is "Taxes". The long answer is "Regulations to ensure worker safety, a reasonable minimum wage, and a robust safety net that includes healthcare. This way nobody is shut out of the economy and we can all prosper."

    63. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by swillden · · Score: 1

      The short answer is "Taxes". The long answer is "Regulations to ensure worker safety, a reasonable minimum wage, and a robust safety net that includes healthcare. This way nobody is shut out of the economy and we can all prosper."

      But how do you force employers to continue employing people when it's cheaper to use automation?

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    64. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      You don't, you make sure they pay into the tax structure so their is a safety net for employees.

      I don't by into the uselessness of workers. I think automation will increase available work as long as we prevent a race to the bottom due to worker desperation.

    65. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by swillden · · Score: 1

      You don't, you make sure they pay into the tax structure so their is a safety net for employees.

      Good luck with that. Raising the minimum wage is relatively easy, politically. A significant expansion of the welfare state, not so much.

      Let me reify my original statement a bit: High minimum wages without also establishing a comprehensive safety net is a bad idea. And, actually, if you establish a comprehensive safety net then minimum wages become unnecessary and can be abolished entirely. Employers will just be unable to find anyone to work for low wages because relying on the safety net will be a better choice. Or, if the safety net is income-indexed, or unrelated to income (basic income), then people might be willing to accept low wages because they're incremental on top of an already-livable safety net.

      Bottom line: High minimum wages are a bad idea.

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    66. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it's our only option currently. No matter how many of us see a better way.

    67. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by swillden · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it's our only option currently. No matter how many of us see a better way.

      But it's actually a worse way. Raising minimum wages damages the economic prospects of lower-income citizens in the present economic and technological context. It's not enough to have good intentions, you also have to do things that help rather than hurt.

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    68. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      There is no evidence for this. A business that raises wages is at a disadvantage to other businesses. If all are forced to raise wages, it's an even playing field. There is no evidence that raising minimum wage damages employment and mounting evidence that it helps.

    69. Re:Thanks, $15 minimum wage! by Gamer_2k4 · · Score: 1

      The business morons always make this type of prediction.

      Locally, they said that increasing the minimum wage would destroy the restaurant industry, but in reality poor people spend a higher percent of their income eating out, and the dollars spent at restaurants increased!

      It sounds like them being poor has less to do with what they're paid and more to do with how they manage their money. These are the people that supposedly can't afford housing, healthcare, and transportation, but they somehow have enough to eat out more often than higher income earners?

  3. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by GrandCow · · Score: 3, Informative

    You can be sure they've calculated this into their plans, and will be reviewing their camera footage and sending you a bill. Remember, you've identified yourself just to get into the store.

    --
    "Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
  4. this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifting by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    like self check out just wait people will try to work out ways to get free stuff at this store.

    https://www.fierceretail.com/o...

  5. Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by ragahast · · Score: 1

    The political economy is broken: innovation that delivers broad productivity and standard-of-living increases is "bad" because it puts people out of work. This phenomenon is not new. For example, some metro transit systems rolled out in the 70's were designed for total automation, but were forced to employ operators by unions and/or public outcry.

    There are two simple, direct fixes that should be on the table. One is a basic income, the other a jobs guarantee.

    --
    .:Semper Absurda:.
    1. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basic income and jobs guarantee are just holdovers from another era, dressed up to appeal to younger Americans. They have no chance of passing. I call it slavery of the worst kind. Cradle to grave you're dependent on a federal government who can do anything they want to you - you will never be free of them.

      Nope, not on my watch.

    2. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by arth1 · · Score: 0

      There are two simple, direct fixes that should be on the table. One is a basic income, the other a jobs guarantee.

      A third one is to not discriminate against people just because they're on the wrong side of the Pareto line.

      Looking at the pictures, this appears to be the most handicap/elderly unfriendly modern store I have ever seen. All small print, similar packaging, no-one to ask for help reaching the high shelves, no carts for those who cannot carry, not even a chance to fit a wheelchair through the entrance gate. Entitled young healthy people need to back off and think for a moment. With their hearts too.

    3. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by ragahast · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Unemployment insurance is just a holdover from another era, dressed up to appeal to old boomers too lazy to work and too entitled to seek training or personal betterment.

      Instead of paying people NOT to work - the big government idea favored by the AC - we should allow federal agencies (especially parks and transportation) to hire unlimited minimum wage workers for infrastructure improvement projects or paid training. This approach eliminates other wage regulation (the private sector must pay higher than the guarantee wage), delivers the ultimate work requirement for government assistance, and provides a direct avenue to labor force retraining/modernization. It's far simpler than the current system involving complex, overlapping big government programs, more economically useful (infrastructure building and maintenance), and more socially useful for able-bodied people (training opportunities, work requirements, etc.).

      A jobs guarantee is THE conservative answer to welfare, and it's a shame you (the AC) are too close-minded to see it.

      --
      .:Semper Absurda:.
    4. Re: Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      I think it has come to that. You can't have an economy based on consumption when no one can afford to buy because they don't have jobs to earn the money that it takes to consume.

    5. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Having people available to ask for help reaching high shelves is not a sign of being accessible, that literally means that it is not accessible for those people. Duh. You need to back off and ask what accessibility is about, instead of reaching off-hand conclusions and presuming that they must be informative.

    6. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Having people available to ask for help reaching high shelves is not a sign of being accessible, that literally means that it is not accessible for those people. Duh. You need to back off and ask what accessibility is about, instead of reaching off-hand conclusions and presuming that they must be informative.

      The obvious difference being that in a regular store, an old lady who can't reach the high shelf can be helped and actually get what she needs.
      In this store, fellow shoppers can't even help her, because if they pull a product off the shelf, they get charged.

    7. Re: Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by ragahast · · Score: 1

      You can't have an economy based on consumption when no one can afford to buy because they don't have jobs to earn the money that it takes to consume.

      Exactly. Also, both basic income and jobs guarantee could virtually eliminate a host of other social ills, like homelessness and food insecurity. Those things directly make all of our lives worse, e.g. by forcing us to walk through feces encrusted encampments and increasing the incidence of property crimes.

      Further, unlike top-heavy tax cuts, bottom-heavy cash transfers for folks with marginal propensity to consume near 1 will drive growth and thereby limit their impact on net government revenue.

      --
      .:Semper Absurda:.
    8. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by ragahast · · Score: 1

      This is a non sequitur. Sure, this store might have issues that limit its ability to replace cashiers at the present time ("ability," because elderly people are a significant market segment that would be unprofitable to ignore). For the moment, so do self-driving cars (*cough* inclement weather *cough*).

      The point is that there's something fundamentally wrong with a system wherein elimination of menial labor is somehow bad.

      --
      .:Semper Absurda:.
    9. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      The article I read said there were tons of employees.

      The stores don't stock themselves, it's rare that it would be a cashier don't that for someone anyway.

      Once automated stocking is handled, automated retreval will be too.

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    10. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about we get the government out of giving freebies, and let businesses dictate what they need? The government doesn't need to do "the dole", nor guarentee someone has a job pumping gasoline in Oregon or New Jersey. The government's role is to ensure business runs well, and hauls the scofflaws to jail. That's it.

      We already have Social Security, Medicare, and Obamacare as pyramid schemes that are starting to topple. We don't need another program that just ensures ne'er-do-wells to smoke weed and watch Oprah.

      Government is there to support business. It isn't there to be a charity.

    11. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are two simple, direct fixes that should be on the table. One is a basic income, the other a jobs guarantee.

      Guaranteeing jobs is likely a bad move, since you would end up with make work. Now there may be, as a society a decision that we will take AI this far and no further, thus preserving some jobs in the interest of limiting AI. I tend to doubt we will do that, even though we probably should.

      A basic income is unlikely in America. Our politics will never support it, at least anytime soon. The problem is you can only give corps so much without addressing the lack of income by the people you want to purchase things.

      I think the solution is this. First don't make various professions exempt from overtime rules. That is stupid. Second, reduce the work week from 40 hours to 39.

      It still would be hard to sell, but you might be able to eventually get it through congress and such. I suspect we could make that change now, then in four years or so consider 38 and so on, with the goal of maintaining nearly full employment by reducing the hours people work to do it.

      I think this approach will work till we get to I'm guessing 24 or 32 hours a week. Some jobs just require one person to put in the hours to get any efficiency, though again, you could still pay OT, so that would be time and a half for the extra hours (hopefully).

    12. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Unemployment insurance is just a holdover from another era, dressed up to appeal to old boomers too lazy to work and too entitled to seek training or personal betterment.

      It's a bit more complicated than that. collecting benefits requires one to seek work weekly and benefits are limited. Employees actually pay for the insurance through lower wages, even though they don't see it as a seperate item in their pay check. Seasonal workers may use it to tide them over between jobs.

      Instead of paying people NOT to work - the big government idea favored by the AC - we should allow federal agencies (especially parks and transportation) to hire unlimited minimum wage workers for infrastructure improvement projects or paid training. This approach eliminates other wage regulation (the private sector must pay higher than the guarantee wage), delivers the ultimate work requirement for government assistance, and provides a direct avenue to labor force retraining/modernization. It's far simpler than the current system involving complex, overlapping big government programs, more economically useful (infrastructure building and maintenance), and more socially useful for able-bodied people (training opportunities, work requirements, etc.).

      We did that during the New Deal with things such CCC and WPA.

      A jobs guarantee is THE conservative answer to welfare, and it's a shame you (the AC) are too close-minded to see it.

      I find it a bit ironic to call greatly increasing the scope and power of the government by making it the employer of last resort a conservative answer.

      --
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    13. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unemployment insurance is just a holdover from another era, dressed up to appeal to old boomers too lazy to work and too entitled to seek training or personal betterment.

      What kind of sociopath are you?

      Unemployment insurance is almost always time-limited, and generally people pay into the system from their pay cheques. They then get are entitled to an amount that is proportional to what they paid in. This gives them a (finite) amount of weeks or months to look for a job while still being able to pay for housing and food.

      Instead of paying people NOT to work - the big government idea favored by the AC - we should allow federal agencies (especially parks and transportation) to hire unlimited minimum wage workers for infrastructure improvement projects or paid training.

      So instead of them having "free time" (i.e., no employment) to look for a new job in their field, they will be given make-work projects for which they may have little or not knowledge of, and will do it less efficiently than someone who was hired with related experience?

    14. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A jobs guarantee is stupid.
      If you actually need it it implies the jobs you're guaranteeing aren't worth a person's time, so it would make more sense to juts hand the workers the wage and let them to their own devices. That way some of them will spend the time developing new skills and become useful and the others are at least free to do whatver makes them less miserable.

      A payed education system might work. The deal would be that you have to keep an over-all passing grade and have to be progressing towards some new degree/certification, to get your stipend.
      The consequence of this would be that people "on the dole" will tend to develop new skills as a consequence of enrolling in and not failing classes, and in the long run they should tend to eventually hit a point where it's harder to keep finding new courses they can pass than to get a job applying one or more things they learned in their previous classes.

      By far the easiest though is a UBI. The only hard part there is calibrating the amount as you'd want it set based on specific economic goals but in reality it will be set based on political goals.

    15. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then this would simply be one of the scenarios the AI would have to handle - customers handing a product to another customer. I wouldn't think that would be much of a stretch if they really can reliably do the rest of the things they claim...

      Which I'm skeptical of, frankly. Retail store shelves are rather chaotic things - items get misplaced by customers all the time, sometimes halfway across the store. Add in the factor of people actually *trying* to trick the system (just for fun, if not for theft) and I just don't see this working for anything more than an interesting experiment.

      But I suppose time will tell.

    16. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Having to ask a human for help is "0% accessible," in your scenario they perform exactly the same as what you're promoting!

      Maybe you have no idea what accessibility even is, and this isn't actually a good issue for you to raise?

    17. Re:Fix the economy so innovation benefits all by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Having to ask a human for help is "0% accessible," in your scenario they perform exactly the same as what you're promoting!

      Maybe you have no idea what accessibility even is, and this isn't actually a good issue for you to raise?

      I spent several years using a wheelchair to get around, so I know a fair bit about this particular problem first hand.

      Not having to ask anyone is 100% accessibility, which is desirable.
      Not being able to do something at all is 0% accessibility.
      Being able to ask someone is in-between those two, and certainly much preferable to not being able to do something at all.

      I truly hopes nobody helps you at all when you one day lack mobility, because you wouldn't appreciate the offer and see it as 0%.

  6. Nice challenge! by DrTJ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From the TFA:
    "The company says the tracking is precise enough to distinguish between multiple people standing side-by-side at a shelf, detecting which one picked up a yogurt or cupcake, for example, and which one was merely browsing. "

    I would take that as a challenge! What can I get a away with, how can I obscure, or fool the "AI", what are the limitations and assumptions, can I beat the design engineers? Very interesting problem!

    If I would be tempted to do that - who hasn't shoplifted once in 47 years - what would that indicate for the average shoplifting rate?

    1. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Easy, bring your small kids to help fill your trolley. Have them run around in circles grabbing stuff before dumping it, not that you would need to ask them to do that. Aside from that... this store sounds fucking creepy.

    2. Re:Nice challenge! by mykie242 · · Score: 0

      This store has been open for well over a year with like-minded Amazon employees trying their best to see how they can score free yogurt from JeffB, so I'm inclined to say whatever you think you might get away with is something that array of cameras has already seen.

    3. Re:Nice challenge! by burtosis · · Score: 1

      They will accept your challenge. Though you only actually left wth 5 items the AI will be tied in knots by so many kids and it will charge you for half the store. Mysteriously if it is a grey area somehow the customer gets the short end 99% of the time. But since they have hundreds of cameras, thousands of scales, and millions of rfid tags, but you have your word it's probably somewhat over 100%.

    4. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Step 1 : Steal QR codes.
      Step 2 : Steal.

    5. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umbrella

    6. Re:Nice challenge! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Probably doesn't need to be super accurate, beyond not accidently charging people for stuff. Like self service check outs the losses may be a little higher but the savings compared to employing staff more than make up for them.

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    7. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need to be Indiana Jones to fool a pressure plate.

    8. Re:Nice challenge! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The hard part isn't just fooling the AI, it is doing it in a way that doesn't cause the AI to detect that your signal is problematic and flag you for human analysis. The human can watch you for a bit and easily see you're playing some sort of "game" and ban you, even if they can't figure out your scam. This is going to be so much harder than doing the same thing in a store right now, with only humans to fool, and where they don't have all the shoppers authenticated and so have to catch thieves "live."

    9. Re:Nice challenge! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The computer isn't going to be sitting there going, "awwww, shucks, how cute!" at your kids and being distracted. It is just going to count how many items they grabbed.

      And probably charge you for some percent of the things your kids picked up and put back down, and it will be your responsibility to identify those items and request a refund, and then if the item is found during the next inventory to still be in the store, you get a refund, and if not, then a human reviews the camera footage of your trip to see if the item went into your cart, or on the floor, or in your child's pocket.

      Fooling the AI is more likely to result in overcharge than undercharge. And it might not be as easy as just being afraid of children and presuming they ruin everything, the AI might just not care.

    10. Re:Nice challenge! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Assuming no human employees and current fire codes -- wear mask, walk in though exit, grab stuff, walk out through fire exit. Slashdotters are thinking of security in a far more sophisticated way than petty thieves do.

    11. Re: Nice challenge! by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Tolerable Shoplifting Rate - TSLR

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    12. Re:Nice challenge! by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      Last time I was in Switzerland there was a small convenience store run on the honor system. No staff, no cameras, just a lock box you dropped cash in when you bought something. They were still in business.

      People rarely run out on restaurant bills even though its easy to do. Its quite possible that a lot of people understand that stealing stuff is bad.

    13. Re: Nice challenge! by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      Take it as a challenge? Amazon will thank you for providing edge cases to help harden their AI. I'm sure they expect to lose money on this approach for a few years while they gather extensive real world field testing. You're the product...

    14. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> "If I would be tempted to do that - who hasn't shoplifted once in 47 years - what would that indicate for the average shoplifting rate?"

      So, the question arises: How old where you when you last shoplifted?

    15. Re:Nice challenge! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      They do that at night with the liquor store and smashing the window in, but then they get caught and insurance pays for most of the damage.

      This part is neither new, nor theoretical. There are places in the world where it is a real problem, and in the US it is mostly not. It happens, but there is a system in place to mitigate it.

    16. Re:Nice challenge! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      But.... you can't enter through an exit!?

      I mean... that's like... you can't even... diodes, man! Diodes!

      --
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    17. Re:Nice challenge! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Yes but that was Switzerland. This is the USA we're talking about here.

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    18. Re:Nice challenge! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      I never shoplifted. I have no idea how people do it either. I mean, how strong do you have to be to lift a shop anyway?

      --
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    19. Re:Nice challenge! by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      true, but its really rare for people to run out on restaurant checks here. Most people are pretty honest.

    20. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There was an automated place near the college I went to about five years ago. You swiped your credit card to get in, and everything was in vending machines. The owners of the place -thought- they had things secure, because it requires a log to get in, the CCTV camers caught everything in 1080p, and so on.

      They didn't realize that stolen credit cards would open the door, and even though the locks on the vending machine were high-zoot, the vending machines' doors were openable by a crowbar, and the machines that didn't had their thick plastic displays "opened" via an angle grinder.

      It was a nice try, but the place went out of business after it got trashed more than once.

      This Amazon store sounds like the same thing. Use a stolen credit card to get in, hold the operator at bay with a screwdriver shoved through a coat pocket (or a real gun), toss everything into a box, and high-tail it out. Far more profitable than a liqueur store, and people would rather rob a faceless corporation like Amazon than a local shop.

    21. Re:Nice challenge! by mentil · · Score: 1

      Modern retail fire exits are one-way. Locked from the outside, push a handle to open it from the inside. Sure, a friend could open the door for you... but that person would then be on camera doing so (and an alarm goes off so everyone stares at you like WTF you doing?)

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    22. Re:Nice challenge! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      They'd push in through the regular exit, grab stuff, run out through the emergency exit. Think "7/11 flash mobs."

    23. Re: Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, this should be emphasized more.

      It's just a QR code. It's basically one small step above having the identifier in plain text, only you need a QR reader and a photo of the code--very easy to get and duplicate with any modern smartphone and an App.

      I'm also curious what data they use in their QR codes. Is it a unique hashed ID, or is the data like username=bobwatson247? QR codes are very basic things. If there is any flaw in their implementation someone could just generate/guess other people's QR codes and get away with a lot. Imagine autobilling Amazon charges to random Amazon users from Kentucky, Florida, New York, etc that rarely check their accounts for charges.

    24. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. That attack works against manned shops as well. So it woking against this shop isn't an example of this shop being inferior to existing shops.

      2. This shop should be able to track anyone who failed to identify themselves as a customer as an anomaly and call CS/security to deal with them. It should also be able to track the "unknown shopper" and track what stuff they took which could be added to the police report or insurance claim that ultimately comes of them leaving with stolen product.

    25. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How could you be charged with shoplifting?

      You can always say: "I thought I was being charged for that. "

      If you were not charged, it is Amazon's fault, not yours.

    26. Re:Nice challenge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy! They'll just activate your 'Amazon App' and notify you that you're being arrested for stealing a Twinkie.

      They thought it before you did!

  7. ATM scare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A couple decades ago when I was in middle school banks in our town installed a few ATMs and issued mag stripe cards to replace the paper wallet size account number slips. My dad and many others around me said it would be the end of banking as a profession and I should not go anywhere near the industry.

    That end of employment fear was unfounded as is this one.

    1. Re: ATM scare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banking isn't a profession anymore. It's a job. Financial planning might still have value, but tellers are just mall sales reps.

    2. Re: ATM scare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhhhhh, the banking and finance sectors have seen a huge number of employees let go after being replaced with computers or other forms of automation. You probably just don't realize it. There are a fraction of the number of tellers and other front line staff that there once were. Hell, there were numerous entire back end operations employing thousands of people each that were shut down once computer-based financial instrument trading took off. Yes, there are still some humans involved, but their numbers are much lower than in the past, even though transaction volumes have increased.

    3. Re: ATM scare by DaMattster · · Score: 2

      Plus, the teller jobs that do exist are mostly part time.

    4. Re:ATM scare by rl117 · · Score: 1

      Have you seen how many bank branches have closed down entirely? In Scotland, the RBS have closed something like two thirds of their branches over the last couple of years, and the other banks are doing the same. On the street I work on, I've seen Clydesdale, RBS and Lloyds all vanish over the last year or so. With ATMs and online banking, their reason to exist is mostly gone. If I need to cash a cheque I need to travel to the one remaining branch in the city centre. Employment in banks was a dead end two decades ago, when ATMs removed most of the need to see a cashier, and it ceased to be a good career and became the same status as a supermarket checkout person. Now those jobs have finally been taken as well. Sucks to be a business with nowhere to deposit your takings.

    5. Re: ATM scare by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You clearly don't realize it, but it is entirely possible that the banking industry grew at the same time that productivity was increasing, and that the absolute number of jobs for bankers was going up even as the percentage of total jobs represented by bankers is going down, and that there has never been any sort of employment crisis in the industry through these changes.

    6. Re:ATM scare by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Have you seen how many bank branches have closed down entirely? (...) Sucks to be a business with nowhere to deposit your takings.

      That's been taken over by machines too, both notes and coins. Those who have a big cash surplus tend to have a security company drive around and collect it rather than carry large amounts of cash to the bank though. Though most businesses around here actually hand out more money than they take in, people get money by electronic deposit and those who let you pay by debit card also tend to let you do small cash withdrawals.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re: ATM scare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 Truth

    8. Re: ATM scare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Possible - but is that what actually happened?

    9. Re: ATM scare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Banking isn't a profession anymore. It's a job.

      Yes, and the job is increasingly done by the customers themselves. The banks just keep charging money for accepting the customer labor 'as service'. Which really is exactly, what the Amazon market is all about, too.

    10. Re: ATM scare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's entirely possible that the banking industry grew because ATMs reduced fees and made banking more convenient.

  8. The Future is Now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:The Future is Now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No! I didn't forget my receipt!! Don't give me a receipt!!! Awwwww mannnnn. You just ruined the whole shoplifting experience for me.

  9. Excuse me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Would you mind helping me with my bags? Also, thanks for paying."

  10. Consider the Drawback(s) by sehlat · · Score: 1

    A society that glorifies convenience makes it easy for its citizens to ignore what they see, hear, and experience. When citizens don't know who's providing the convenience, for what purpose, at what cost, and for whose benefit, the result is a superb mask for tyranny. -sub.intelligitur

    'nuf said.

    1. Re:Consider the Drawback(s) by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure it's just for tracking. Most of Amazon really seems to be geared up for impulse buying. No need to think about how much money is in your wallet, not need to spend time checking out, just push a button. There's seriously heavy handed and tricky marketing to get people to sign up for Prime. The easier it is for people to buy stuff, the more money Amazon makes. The speed bumps on the way to buying stuff actually helps the consumer, especially today when so many people live beyond their means.

      On the other hand, getting these hipsters out of their basement and into a store may be a good thing, preferable to on-demand grocery purchase and deliveries. More money would go to the local economy too. Now if they would just hire more than one person from the local economy...

    2. Re:Consider the Drawback(s) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think we know exactly who's providing the convenience, for what purpose, at what cost, and to whose benefit. I don't understand how you could be confused about any one of those things. If what's bothering you is the convenience, maybe you should put sand in your shoes, tie a rock to your dick and walk around town, thus turning your life into a deeper "experience". Or maybe walk to work. (Cars and trains are a little too convenient, don't you think?)

  11. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No shit sherlock. People already try and work out how to steal stuff, most people who don't aren't going to start because it may have become ever so slightly easier. My normal supermarket shop now, in the UK, is collecting a self-scanner at the door, scanning and putting items in my own bags, and then scanning a terminal at the exit and paying. Perhaps once every 8-10 visits it decides I need to check and someone picks out 2-5 items at random and scans them and as long as they are part of the shop I'm done. Clearly they aren't concerned about excessive theft in this model, and I doubt Amazon's without the checking but with extensive surveillance is going to be any more exploitable.

  12. I shopped at a conceptually similar place recently by raymorris · · Score: 1

    I bought some things recently using a similar idea. At a Dallas hospital the vending machines have been replaced by what roughly like standard refrigerated display cases you'd see holding drinks at any convenience store. Chips and such were in a similar-looking case, just not refrigerated.

    The customer taps their card or phone to open the case, then takes whatever they want. It detects if you take an item and then put it back. Especially if you wanted more than one item, it was more convenient than a standard vending machine that requires you to choose item A11 by pressing buttons, then wait for wire to turn, hoping the bag of pretzels will drop as intended.

    Because there were no visible sensors or other mechanisms, and it was new to me, it was slightly disconcerting the first time, but interesting and convenient.

  13. Yea its so great to eliminate jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some where down the road when 30% are unemployed because they are low skilled poorly educated and crime is ridiculous. We will finally acknowledge that low skill jobs are important and needed. No robots won't be taking over human's as we have seen in the movies. They will just cause chaos and mass unemployment which leads to the have and have not's fighting it out.

    1. Re:Yea its so great to eliminate jobs by Charcharodon · · Score: 1

      My robot army looks forward to that day.

    2. Re: Yea its so great to eliminate jobs by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      Well, when society gets to that point we will be in a new civil war.

    3. Re:Yea its so great to eliminate jobs by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      That's because they didn't make a movie based on the book Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut... yet!

    4. Re: Yea its so great to eliminate jobs by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      When society gets to that point, Universal Basic Income will be implemented to avoid civil war.

    5. Re: Yea its so great to eliminate jobs by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Not going to happen and if it does guess what?
      It will be hoards of followers being exploited by some charismatic leader. The would end up being worse off than before.
      See Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Hitler for reference.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    6. Re: Yea its so great to eliminate jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think even a guaranteed income of $500/month ($250/month for those 21 and under) would certainly help. One issue is if landlords would raise rental rates in such a situation.

    7. Re: Yea its so great to eliminate jobs by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      500.00 a month is peanuts. How about adopting the Social Security Disability standard of 1170.00 per month? At least you could have a roof over your head.

  14. What happens when by taustin · · Score: 1

    as so often happens, I pick something up, walk around for a while, then put it down somewhere else, picking something up from there? If their system can't handle that - with 100% reliability - it's not ready for the real world. Because that happens all the time in real retail stores.

    1. Re:What happens when by WrongMonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you don't put the item back the original spot, you should be charged anyway just for being an inconsiderate jerk.

    2. Re:What happens when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Obviously, if you misplace items you will pay them. Misplaced food items are often trash, especially those that require certain temperature. Perhaps they can even give you a fine for the damages.

    3. Re:What happens when by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I don't think that's obvious at all. Most food items would still be good. There should no way that a person would get charged for an item they didn't leave the store with.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re:What happens when by jaa101 · · Score: 1

      There should no way that a person would get charged for an item they didn't leave the store with.

      What if they drop and break the item? There are many stores that make people pay for breakages, though supermarkets tend to be very lenient in this respect. This is because their goods are of relatively low value and it's worth the loss to maintain goodwill.

      Leaving frozen and refrigerated goods randomly on the wrong shelves destroys their value. It's worse than accidental breakage because it's mostly intentional, lazy, selfish behaviour. Stores mostly have to discard such items due to regulations and for fear of customers suffering food poisoning.

    5. Re:What happens when by taustin · · Score: 1

      Good way to get chargebacks in sufficient number to cause higher transaction fees. At least.

    6. Re:What happens when by mentil · · Score: 1

      Please don't do that. It takes several man-hours each day in a large retail store to find, collect, and put back all the items that are left in wrong spots by customers. Time that'd be better spent cleaning up the store or stocking that thing you're out of and need and it's not on the shelf but somewhere in the backroom and NO we can't find it for you in the stack of 1,000 vaguely labeled boxes.
      Hand the item to the cashier so they can have it put back right away (if it's refrigerated/frozen) or collected in a common area instead of having to spend hours playing "hunt down the misplaced items." Oh and when a misplaced item is put in a spot with a shelf price tag for a different item, that peeves other customers that expect that to be its price.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    7. Re:What happens when by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Most people won't take yogurt out of a refrigerator and leave it on a shelf. That's going to be a small problem. Obviously there is a certain about of latitude that a brick and mortar store will extend to its patrons to put a box of breakfast cereal back in the wrong place that will be missed if all stores become automated.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  15. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Funny

    Get a skill and earn some money.

    OK: "Alexa, how many bags of dried beans weigh precisely the same as a 750ml bottle of Courvoisier?"

  16. Note to self: by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    ... the tracking is precise enough to distinguish between multiple people ... overhead cameras work with weight sensors in the shelves to precisely track which items they pick up ... The system also knows when people pick up items and put them back, ...

    Do not shop for condoms at the Amazon Go store.

    On the other hand... With Alexa snooping on you at home as well, perhaps she can help ensure you buy the right size - next time.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Note to self: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Stretch condom over Echo speaker.

      "Alexa, you're going in!"

    2. Re:Note to self: by arth1 · · Score: 1

      There next to no size difference between over-the-counter condoms in the US, despite what the packaging promises. An "XL" condom is only 56mm wide compared to 53mm for the regular.
      The manufacturers can't deviate much from the allowed standards, or they won't be allowed OTC status. The only reason there is a difference at all is because the production tolerances are now smaller so they can make a condom that's 56 +- 1mm where they earlier made 53 +- 4mm, and still stay within the 57 mm max width. Similar for smaller condoms.

    3. Re:Note to self: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that's right. My dick's so big, I need prescription condoms.

    4. Re:Note to self: by arth1 · · Score: 1

      They're elastic enough to be used as socks, so that's not a problem. It's those with smaller genitals that have a problem that OTC condom sizes don't cater to.
      But at least stores like this might help with the awkwardness some may feel when presenting a cashier with a pack of "extra snug", even though it won't help much with them falling off.

    5. Re:Note to self: by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because people will definitely use uncomfortable condoms that actively squeeze blood out of their erection, and there's no way the extra stretch with friction increases breaking risks.

      The correct solution is to use a female condom if the ones they sell don't fit.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  17. Watch the store fill up with people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    who just runs in really quick to get something, to let everyone know how serious and busy they are - they're on the go and don't have time to linger!

  18. OT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess that begs the question, did Trump pay for the Real Girlfriend Experience or not? Or would that be Real Mistress Experience?

    PS - Escorts can start getting RFID tags in their implants to auto-bill you.

  19. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

    In the Amazon store, one could do a "raiders of the lost ark", grab something off the shelf and quickly replace it with something worthless of equal weight, like Indy replacing the golden idol with a bag of sand. I'm hoping Amazon will add a rolling stone ball to crush such shoplifters as well.

    Our supermarket now has self checkout as well, and we get checked just as frequently and in the same way. What surprises me is the perfunctory manner of the check: they never count items or check stuff at the bottom of the bag. So bury the stuff you want to steal or grab 10 beers and ring up only 8. Then again, I am sure that these supermarkets have very detailed figures on theft, and I am guessing that they feel that the increase (if any) in shoplifting introduced by self scanners is outweighed by the advantages these scanners offer.

    I love self checkout by the way. Mostly because there's no taking out and (re)bagging of groceries anymore; everything gets scanned and goes straight into the bag, which goes straight into the boot. Checkout is a 5 second process.

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  20. Taking our jobs, or not by grumpy_old_grandpa · · Score: 1

    > criticized by grocery-store workers' unions, which feared an effort to automate the work done by cashiers, the second-most-common job in the U.S.

    This is an excellent example of where the "robots are taking our jobs" mantra is misguided and targeted at the wrong change. If the concern is really about cashiers' work, then the most significant replacement has already been implemented many years ago: self-checkout kiosks. In fact, the ones in the US have already become old fashioned and bulky compared to the slimmer versions which are popping up all over Europe.

    What's interesting about the self-checkout boot, is that is does not require any new technology which was not already in use by a human cashier: The barcode-scanner, coin slot, card terminal, touch screen are all technologies from the 80s / 90s or earlier. The change was mainly in process and labor; now the customer has to do the job the cashier used to do.

    Amazon's implementation uses much more advanced technology, but the effect on required labor is the same. So should vision-based technology be banned and resisted, while self-checkout boots are fine? Or should we go back to anno 1920, when a shop-keeper would hand you every item from behind the counter? Or maybe Amazon need to pay a "robot-tax" for the workers they displaced? In which case, should we go by the 1990s level when there were maybe hundred in a large Wal-mart store, or the 1920 style, where there were only one or two employees but a long line of customers.

    1. Re:Taking our jobs, or not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went to a McDonalds in the hood that had self-checkout kiosks and even though the line for a human cashier was out the door none of the blacks would use it. Was it white privilege to use the kiosk to skip the line? Should I feel guilty?

    2. Re:Taking our jobs, or not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Programming is a lot cheaper nowadays. -80 which is about 40 years ago, they had C64 and Amigas. Try writing a program with that and compare that to modern Eclipse and Java where you have readymade classes for reading image files etc. and you will see the difference.

    3. Re:Taking our jobs, or not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the fuck still uses gay ass Eclipse? What is this 2003? Look into IntelliJ my man...

    4. Re: Taking our jobs, or not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes you self righteous pick check your privilege cause not everyone can read

    5. Re:Taking our jobs, or not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure if should be modded Troll or Funny...

  21. Re: Won't work in Darktown. by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    You really are a coward!

  22. Re:I shopped at a conceptually similar place recen by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

    hoping the bag of pretzels will drop as intended

    It's the 21st century, we're sending robots to Mars and probes to asteroids, cancer has gone from "death sentence" to "usually well treatable", and paper jams in printers have become exceedingly rare, but the solution to this problem still eludes us.

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  23. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

    Can you patent a scaled up version of the hotel mini bar?

  24. I can't wait for this shit, holy shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The worst part of going to the store is waiting in line with a bunch of thugs while some zero work ethic hindu guy begrudgingly rings up my order. Or in more upscale areas the forced banter of trader joe's cashiers is cringe worthy. Amazon can't bring this shit on soon enough!

  25. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wrong. Amazon has called me and asked if I would work minimum wage to patrol the store with my shotgun and shoot shoplifters. OF COURSE I SAID YES, FUCK YEAH.

  26. The cost savings from no employees by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    will dwarf anything you could possibly steal before getting caught. As for privacy concerns, it's like the number of the beast. You won't have a choice. You'll at least have to buy food.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:The cost savings from no employees by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      If people really care about privacy and there's no other stores available to shop at, they can always pay someone else to do their shopping for them. One person buys everything for a dozen people or so which makes the collected data useless since it can't be tied to any one person in particular.

    2. Re:The cost savings from no employees by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Meeting in the marketing department:

      The last time alvinrod was in the store, he bought a chicken and tofurky slices, unsalted chips and 500g of sea salt, non-alcoholic beer and two bottles of wines, vanilla ice cream and coconut milk frozen dessert...

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    3. Re: The cost savings from no employees by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Choice and monopolism are water and oil.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    4. Re:The cost savings from no employees by mentil · · Score: 1

      One of his two personalities is a vegan health nut. Problem solved. Wait, would the health nut buy the wine or the non-alcoholic beer?!

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  27. I don't think it even makes it faster by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    you could pay them in just enough rice porridge to make it through one more miserable day and the machines would still win out; if only because shopping at places where the staff can barely survive is just plain unpleasant. After all, out of sight, out of mind.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  28. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    It is going to be exceptionally easy when they find the bag of sand to just press a button and view the video of "last time the weight of this item fluctuated" and see who you were. You have to authenticate to gain access to the store.

    Idiots wave their hands and imagine video-game quality theft schemes, these tweakers will get arrested after the first time they manage to steal somebody's identity and make it into the store.

    You have to be basically illiterate to think that a current "self checkout line" is using the same technology as this Amazon store. The amazon store uses surveillance technology to watch you. A "self checkout line" uses an employee to stand around and "watch" a large number of customers, and experienced thieves can simply pay attention to what that employee is doing. The cameras are for live viewing and evidence, they're not using a system of auditing what you bought afterwards. With the Amazon store they know who everyone is, so if there is missing stock they can go back and actually figure out who removed it from the shelf, and then just cross-reference if you were charged. You bring home 10 beers, think you only got charged for 8 because you only wrote down an 8, but then it gets corrected later and if you're literally trying to hide it under other stuff you might even get arrested; or worse, banned from the store.

  29. Why do you need an employee to check IDs? by CarterMeyers · · Score: 1

    - Just put the alcohol into a mini refrigerated walk-in room that's behind a locked door. The door only opens for those who are over the drinking age... there, one employee position resolved. - create a greeting robot (screen with a human face) with preprogrammed messages and potentially preprogrammed responses to questions... there, the other employee position resolved.

  30. Not sure why everyone is so negative about this by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 1

    The only thing that bothers me about this is the personal identification in order to enter the store. Then again, stores like Costco have for years required you to submit your identity and made you pay for a uniquely-identifying card in order to use their store. It doesn't look like Amazon will charge you. And even I am willing to let a clerk scan my uniquely-identifying Safeway card at checkout so I can get 80 cents off seedless grapes or whatever. What's different about Amazon's store is that there isn't a staff of sad underpaid cashiers. I also won't miss the infernally slow checkout aisles that try to get me interested in buying magazines about Jennifer's latest battle with Angelina over Brad. Doesn't anyone else think the grocery store has always been a fairly shitty place? I see no need to protect it from extinction, just like I don't long for the pre-ATM days when people had to wait in line and talk to a bank teller in order to withdraw cash from their accounts.

    1. Re:Not sure why everyone is so negative about this by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Prepaid credit card linked to an Amazon account with following address and info... Fuck Bezos 666 Diaf Lane Hell, MI 45666 (616)FUC-KOFF fbezos@goatse.cn

    2. Re:Not sure why everyone is so negative about this by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      When my grocery store added self-checkout kiosks, they fired so many people that lines are even longer now.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    3. Re:Not sure why everyone is so negative about this by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I have a Costco card. I wave it at the greeter when I enter the store. If I were using someone else's I'd still get in. If I were using a nice reproduction, I could get in, although I probably couldn't buy anything or take anything out with me.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  31. Will they gouge the crap out of like grimy stores? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So many little grime "convenience" stores gouge the crap out of people offering expired products all the while speaking to some friends on the phone while doing their best to ignore us. Will Amazon usurp this experience or actually provide a better experience?

    Some people will scream that this eliminates jobs for hard-working immigrants and mom and pop stores, but quite simply I am sick of all the corner stores I have been in for at least the last decade. Never personal service, never someone who treats me with any respect at all, and never a fair price; so I won't mourn the loss of this entire industry to automation.

    As for the employees, some minimum wage jobs gone so rancid that in Canada they had to bring slaves in on temporary work permits just to fill the positions. Bye bye.

  32. Re:Will they gouge the crap out of like grimy stor by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile my local convenience store (bodega to you, thanks) actually makes food which is good. Try that, Norby the Mixed Up Amazonbot.

  33. No burka allowed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I will not enter

  34. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  35. Re:Will they gouge the crap out of like grimy stor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My local convenience store made good food. Except nobody bought the food since the customers only wanted to buy lottery tickets. The store is gone now.

  36. Re:I shopped at a conceptually similar place recen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happens if you put something back in the wrong spot? You know, like your OCD uncle, who upon opening something up, must immediately alphabetize everything.

  37. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, skills such as running a cash register are no longer needed. Please proceed to the starvation line to your left.

  38. the law makes it so like how in NJ you can't pump by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 0

    the law makes it so like how in NJ you can't pump your own gas.

  39. Build it, and they can't come. by geekmux · · Score: 1

    The idea is to "push the boundaries of computer vision and machine learning" to create an "effortless experience for customers"...

    Customers? Oh, you mean all the workers you put in the unemployment line with this "vision" of the future? Those customers?

    They say automation is unavoidable. We'll see if the concept of Eat the Rich is too.

  40. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by nukenerd · · Score: 1

    OK: "Alexa, how many bags of dried beans weigh precisely the same as a 750ml bottle of Courvoisier?"

    Buy one first, go home, weigh it, prepare bean bag, return for another. BOGOF.

  41. 23 seconds? by nukenerd · · Score: 1

    FTFA :-

    In my first test of Amazon Go this past week, my elapsed time in the store was exactly 23 seconds

    WTF did he buy? Sometimes it takes me 5 minutes to find just one particular item in my supermarket. Even though I use the same place every week, they are always moving stuff around according to season, or it seems at the whim of the manager.

    1. Re:23 seconds? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      This was bodega/convenience store sized.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    2. Re:23 seconds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what I was wondering. What, did he just walk 10 feet in, grab the first thing he saw, then go straight out?

  42. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a skill but am not allowed to earn any money. Thanks, government, for requiring then fucking up the paperwork.

    On another note, what if you walk in and out again, with stuff, but without Amazon account attached to your face, then what? They shut the door on your face next time?

    Or how about you wear someone else's face? Put a Nixon mask on a homeless guy and ask him to try for you? Worst he gets is a couple days free board from the cops.

    Me, I don't shop at stores that don't have price tags (unless they're run by Arabs and I feel like dickering, it can be fun if you know how it's done). I don't shop using "plastic" because that already disconnects me from the money I'm spending. This concept is designed to take that one step further. "It's feels like it's free!" Well, it isn't, it just creates bills that'll stack up... later. But they'll stack up remorselessly. Soon Amazon will start to lobby to get their debts elevated to tuitition loan persistence levels. Because they're special that way. And they know your face. So no, I don't think this is good for me. But it'll certainly be good for Amazon, if they get enough suckers to walk in and make their faces and wallets known to Amazon.

  43. We are about to test it too by ruddk · · Score: 1

    We are about to test it too at the chain were I work.
    It will be a regular store that will be open 24/7 only at night there will be no on site personnel. It will only be open to people who have membership/owner cards. Since it is a cooperation, you pay a small amount to become a member/owner, so it is not like one of those "membership" cards you get at the register.

  44. Who Has The Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know where I'm shopping during the next electrical outage.

  45. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have never dealt with shoplifters before, have you ...

    The lengths serial shoplifters will go to are astounding, and they don't give any fucks about being caught.

  46. What are you thinking, Amazon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not much. No system is 100% infallible and this will make mistakes. What do they do when they make one? Give the shopper the benefit of doubt after stressing them out and making them feel like a thief: Ok, we'll let you get away with this one, but we knew you did it.
     
    or worse prosecute them?
     
    Is this a publicity stunt? A dumb idea by a corporation with more dollars than sense? Is there really that strong a demand for shops without shop assistants? WTF is going on here?

  47. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by AvitarX · · Score: 1

    If I had to bet, this store that's harder to get into without an ID won't be the one criminals focus on.

    --
    Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  48. Will close within the first month by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Due to massive thefts.

  49. Alexa AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... wanted to read the label.

    There's an Alexa AI opportunity: " You seem to be interested in the extra-small condoms; do you want to hear more?"

  50. Re:in the 60s and 70s staff pumped gas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I prefer to pump my own gas. The world did not collapse.

    Pumping gas did not represent the second most common job in the nation. Stop fucking ignorantly pointing to buggy whip shit from our past as an indication of how the future will go.

  51. Indiana Jones solution by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    I picture a thief sitting standing in front of a store shelf with a bag of sand in one hand, and a bag of cookies in the other.

    1. Re:Indiana Jones solution by mentil · · Score: 1

      If he knows the weight of the bag of cookies plus packaging down to the milligram, and can do the switch in less than the polling time (probably 0.001 second) of the weight sensor, he deserves it. Also he should really get back to Vegas to do his next magic act.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    2. Re:Indiana Jones solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't really know anything about this sort of tech, other than the high-level armchair engineer overview, do you? You have WAY too much faith in that weight sensing system. For starters, they won't be using a milligram-precision sensor. Well, maybe they will (unlikely), but even then they won't be reading it to that precision. There's too much variance in product weights, some product weights will vary with humidity (fabrics), a couple flies landing on a shelf would through that whole thing off, among other things. So the weight sensing would need to be a bit coarser than you're imagining. Two, the polling frequency won't be anywhere near a millisecond. Well, again, maybe it will, but the system would have to watch and average it over some time, and ignore a lot of sharp fluctuations. If you're familiar with the concept of debouncing a button, handling a weight sensor of any appreciable size is basically the same but slower. If you don't know about debouncing, you shouldn't be making system design assumptions and condescending to anyone on the topic.

      Besides, there's one major bit you overlooked: The system knows when you put items back on the shelf. So you take the real cookies off the shelf, and replace them with a forgery (or actual packaging from cookies you bought and ate earlier, filled with sand to weight). System sees you pick up, then replace cookies. No charge. The sleight of hand required for this trick is easily mastered by even the shittiest of street thieves.

    3. Re:Indiana Jones solution by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      It says you can take an item then put it back later, so no need for speed. As for accuracy, bah, it can't know the weight of the package that accurately. I really am kinda curious how they would deal with this. But you know the scene I'm referring to? It would be kinda funny to see someone try. I wonder if you could put the weight into an old cookie package so it even looks the same. Heck, people do this today in real stores. Having worked at CompUSA years ago, there were stories of people returning cardboard boxes weighted with bricks, or with an old computer in it...

  52. I will love this.. once it works reliably by MpVpRb · · Score: 1

    Until then, they should respond "above and beyond the call of duty" when customers report failures

    Methinks there will be LOTS of failures

    If they take the typical corporate attitude, and ignore or argue with the customers, instead of taking a detailed bug report..they will fuck themselves

  53. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 3, Funny

    Remember, you've identified yourself just to get into the store.

    Not really. I've identified myself as Bill, because he keeps forgetting his phone on his desk.

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
  54. WHAT A BOOMING ECONOMY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It'll be perfect once they kill off millions of the 99%

  55. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sorry, skills such as running a cash register are no longer needed. Please proceed to the starvation line to your left.

    Exactly. It is well known that automation causes poverty. Economists call this "the productivity catastrophe". That is why America, Europe, and Japan are mired in misery, while countries that have wisely avoided the "efficiency trap" such as Somalia, Ethiopia, and Afghanistan, are doing so well.

  56. Re:I shopped at a conceptually similar place recen by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

    What happens if you put something back in the wrong spot? You know, like your OCD uncle, who upon opening something up, must immediately alphabetize everything.

    If I had an uncle like that, I'd give him a box of Alpha-Bits at Christmas and a can of Alpha-getti for his birthday.

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
  57. Re:in the 60s and 70s staff pumped gas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OTOH systemd was totally uncalled for, as you already had people trained to do the configurations using scripts they maintained by hand.

  58. Insightful? +5 IDIOTIC! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Robotics and AI will replace MOST jobs and the wages have nothing do to with that people! You can never pay low enough for a human to live on and compete with automation. It only delays the inevitable-- go back to slavery and eventually they will still be replaced.

    Better off paying decent wages and helping fund the machine take over quicker--- before we end up with robot armies to suppress the mass movements which will come when most the world is unemployable and has to FORCE the status quo to change to something new.... the wealthy and powerful ALWAYS defend the system which created their wealth and gave them power. Even the "left" leaning will abandon their ideals when it encroaches upon their security and "way of life."

    Slavery was all about "way of life" and economics... tons of rationalizations to justify and promote a culture of rationalizations for maintaining the status quo. Humans always do this. Losing hurts more; it's evolution and fear of insecurity is evolutionary add in tribalism...

  59. Linear thinking habits are at fault here by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    The price for these capabilities of dropping well faster than half every three years.

    Most people are generally terrible at dealing with / anticipating non-linear change. Those who can are often able to remain far ahead of the curve. But they're relatively rare.

    And this change... this change is unlike any other that preceded it. That's why you see so many deniers claiming this wave of automation is essentially just like previous "no more buggywhips" events.

    They simply can't open their minds far enough to see that the light in the tunnel is an oncoming, accelerating, train. It's going to hit them with very little warning, despite you standing by the tracks and screaming "Get off, GET OFF! It's a frigging TRAIN!"

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Linear thinking habits are at fault here by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I personally predict an industrial revolution level event.

      I think the ultimate outcome will be good, but it may take 75 years to start to see it that way (as the displaced people die off and their offspring grew up and found niches in the new reality). Jobs are not as fungible as economic models treat them (economists that made predictions about global trade are beginning to admit that as results of global trade can now be seen (still a net good)).

      My only point is that if $15/hour makes the tech worth it today, $7.50/hour would in 2021 (I guess we can lie and say that's livable), and $3.75 would in 2024 (are we going to say that's livable?), Eventually prices for the automation equipment will level off, maybe around then, maybe another halving or so?

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  60. No more privacy by Nocturrne · · Score: 2

    Automation is fine, I like that. However, I want to be able to walk into a store, buy something with cash, and walk out, anonymously. Nobody has the right to analyze my life history of hygiene and drinking habits.

    1. Re:No more privacy by mentil · · Score: 2

      You're free to buy hygiene and alcohol products elsewhere. That said, if you buy a case of beer every week or every month, it doesn't say anything about you because you might be taking them to parties or sharing them with roommates/friends. If you buy a stick of deodorant every week or every 6 months would anyone care? If you buy a box of tampons every month would anyone be surprised? Now, if you're buying cases of Backdoor brand condoms, maybe you'd want to not have to bring that up to the counter and hand cash to someone you see every week at church; a store with no cashiers (or an online purchase) might improve your privacy for some things.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    2. Re:No more privacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you killing the clerk behind the desk and/or taking out the cameras that have been watching you? if not, you haven't been anonymous for a very long time, it was just that no one gave a shit who you were.

    3. Re:No more privacy by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Just wait until Facebook or whoever starts analyzing your purchases, and then when you try to leave the store with beer, beeps and won't let you go. It's bad for your health, you see. It harms all of society. Then cigarettes, then sugar products, then products made by companies that donated to Republicans. Once they start analyzing what you buy and finding problems with it, it's gonna be Pandora's Box.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    4. Re:No more privacy by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      There was a case a few years back when Target's systems figured out that a certain young woman was pregnant, and sent her appropriate coupons. That's how her father found out about it. We've already got that going on.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  61. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, This will make much easier to prosecute shoplifters.

    They will not be serial shoplifters in these stores.
    First time they are caught, they will be banned from all stores, forever. Which will be pretty easy for Amazon to enforce
    since you have to authenticate your identity in order to even enter the store.
    Amazon flips a flag for your account/social security number and you can never enter a store again.

    And they will be caught, make no mistake. There are cameras everywhere, from every angle. Lots of cameras.
    As soon as "one item is missing from shelf position xyz" they will will just have to go through their footage
    for every single (authenticated) customer that were anywhere near that shelf and crossreference the (authenticated) customer in the photage with his/her checkout item list.
    I bet that they have that already fully automated and have tested that in their dark launch.

    I guess that the only part where a human will be involved will be when the AI will escalate to a human as :
    "one item of X has been lost from item shelf Y. Computer thinks it happened at ... . Here is high resolution footoage from 25 different angles. Please review and confirm if this was the shoplifter or not."
    If the human confirms it, they know the identity, and they have high res footage to prove it can can perma ban the user immediately from all stores, and possibly also prosecute if they feel like setting some examples.
    If the human clears it, the computer will then show them the next most probable suspect.

  62. CIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure that is a good idea. I haven't examined the political motivations of the CIA yet, but as we've seen from the FBI lately, feeding a large organization more information when their primary objective is to maintain a certain political stance in politics is a major mistake.

  63. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by nospam007 · · Score: 2

    "But I happened to bring in a block that weighs the same as this item I'm too broke to get. Decisions decisions."

    You know it doesn't work, Dr. Jones.
    Beware the giant boulder.

  64. "Smack Zuckie in the face" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm willing to go buy in that store if they sell this one item.

  65. how easy will it be fooled by sad_ · · Score: 1

    bring back your empty packages, replace with new, filled ones on the shelf.
    will the AI decide - oh, they put it back, no charge?
    prepare to find stores full of empty packages!

    and what about those 2 people still working there? checking an id and saying hello to people? those are the 2 things they couldn't figure out how to replace?

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
    1. Re:how easy will it be fooled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those are the people who's job it is to notice that you are walking in with a bunch of boxes and ask you pointed questions about them.

  66. Putting stuff back on wrong shelves? by misnohmer · · Score: 1

    Ok, say someone picks up a can of beer, then a can of Coke, then puts the can of Coke back on the beer shelf (assume same weight of full cans). Now:
    1. Does the customer pay Coke prices for beer?
    2. Are there robots which will then retrieve the Coke and put it back on the correct shelf?

  67. Re: Universal Basic Income needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And why is the $15 (and higher) minimum wage necessary?

    Because the cost of basic essentials went up more than the minimum wage. None of the people arguing for a low minimum wage ever mention that.

    The problem that Amazon and all of those looking to maximize profits by lowering employee costs is that every time someone becomes long term unemployed, the ability of another consumer to contribute to the GDP vanishes - likely forever.

    To get a grasp of how little these people make, take a look here:
    https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes412031.htm

    Take it to the extreme: all ship assistants are made redundant by spy cameras, that's 4.5 million people that no longer have a job. And nobody to help you correct a mistake on the bill.

  68. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    But I happened to bring in a block that weighs the same as this item I'm too broke to get. Decisions decisions.

    A true hacker would know how much each product weighs and leave cheap items where the expensive items were.

    --
    No sig today...
  69. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    ...and this will be the downfall of this system.

    As soon as people walk in and see a bag of rice where the new Xbox is supposed to be then it's game over for Amazon Go.

    The only way it can work is if they restrict it to cheap stuff that nobody would invest much effort to steal, eg. bags of rice.

    --
    No sig today...
  70. Re:I shopped at a conceptually similar place recen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This really pisses me off> At work, the vending machine gets jammed regularly. And 99% of the time the item is wedged between the dispense mechanism and the front glass. If the front glass was approximately half an inch further forward, it would almost never happen! It's not exactly rocket scienceÂ

  71. 'Checkout' display required. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd want a display by the door where I could check what I'd supposedly bought before leaving. Just to scan through quickly so I can see I haven't been charged for a bogus £80 bottle of champagne or something.
    Once you've left it would be very hard for *you* to prove that you didn't buy an item.

  72. And, it never makes a mistake! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unlike systems to detect the onset of nuclear war, Amazon systems never make a mistake. That is why I am wondering what is going to happen when I dispute what Amazon thinks I walked out of the with.

  73. Re: Hmm, I don't have the money for this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not only that but it's a QR code. I like using QR codes around my house but even a bad quality photo of a QR code is enough to re-create it and use someone else's QR code then.

    Does the QR code stay the same each time or is a new one generated each visit?

  74. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    Psh, just hack the app that identifies you.

  75. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    No doubt, retailers make a calculated risk: do the savings in cashier wages exceed the losses from shoplifting? It's likely that they find it cost effective even with moderate increase in shoplifting.

  76. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by j2.718ff · · Score: 1

    I love self checkout by the way. Mostly because there's no taking out and (re)bagging of groceries anymore; everything gets scanned and goes straight into the bag, which goes straight into the boot. Checkout is a 5 second process.

    I'm curious where you shop. Stores near me with self checkout require me to scan each item, and then place them into the bagging area. There is a scale in the bagging area, so the machine yells at you if you place something unexpectedly heavy or light there. And if you want to bring your own bags, there's a problem: If you place them on the bagging area, you must call an attendant to OK the extra weight. Or, you must keep your bags on the floor, and after you scan each item, you must tell the computer that you wish to skip bagging, so you can place the item into your bag.

  77. what about overcharging? by j2.718ff · · Score: 1

    I wonder how often the machinery will think you took something when you didn't. Perhaps the crowd was too big, and it wasn't obvious which customer took the item. I assume most people won't check the receipt while walking out to verify every item listed is actually in their cart. And if they do catch a mistake, what then? How do you prove you don't have something? What if you catch it the mistake the next day?

  78. based on weight sensors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    someone bring in a bag of sand and indiana jones that sh@t

  79. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

    If you try this, a large stone boulder will immediately roll out of the wall and crush you.

  80. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

    This in in Albert Heijn stores in the Netherlands. It's scan-as-you-go, using a portable scanner you pick up at the entrance, or a reasonably convenient app on your smart phone. Scan each item as you put it in your cart or bag.

    At checkout, the app produces a bar code which you scan at the terminal, then you pay and walk out using a bar code on your receipt to open a turnstyle. About 1 time in 10 the terminal will lock and a clerk will walk over to check your groceries. If you buy any alcohol, the terminal locks as well, and the clerk unlocks it after a few seconds (they'll card younger patrons). It's a pretty well streamlined process, even having your purchases checked takes only a few seconds.

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  81. Re:Hmm, I don't have the money for this by ausekilis · · Score: 1

    I was thinking along the same lines. I pick up 10 pounds of potatoes, then go and get 8 pounds of booze. I put the potatoes on the booze shelf, then walk out. Do I get 8 pounds of booze for the price of 2 pounds of potatoes?

    Even the *best* surveillance systems have blind spots and replacing/spoofing/jamming RFID is trivial.

  82. Re:this will make it Harder To Prosecute Shoplifti by eaglesrule · · Score: 1

    Or it never figured in to the decision for self checkout, since they were going to maximize surveillance and automate it anyway.

    I'd be interested in seeing the actual numbers. But judging from my local police blotter, they have been awfully busy there since the new self serve checkouts were installed at the big box store.

  83. Obligatory IBM ad from the dark ages. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An advertisement for contactless RFID shopping. The future has arrived.
    https://www.youtube.com/eob532iEpqk