Windows Defender Will Soon Start Removing Applications With Coercive Messaging: Cleaners and Optimizers Put on Notice (cso.com.au)

Microsoft is stepping up its efforts to protect Windows users from programs that use fear to convince people to buy or upgrade products. From a report: The Redmond company is taking aim at all software that use scary messaging to convince people to upgrade to a paid product that purportedly fixes a problem detected by a free version. Specifically it is targeting registry cleaners and optimizers, which Microsoft previously didn't endorse but also didn't blacklist them as unwanted programs or malware. That's changing on March 1. "We find this practice problematic because it can pressure customers into making unnecessary purchase decisions," said Barak Shein, a member of the Windows Defender security research team. From March 1 Microsoft's Windows Defender and other security products will "classify programs that display coercive messages as unwanted software, which will be detected and removed," Shein said.

Comments

Will it remove Windows 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's start with that and see where it takes us.

Re:Will it remove Windows 10?

[DarkRookie]

That is the question.
The OS does the same thing as these pieces of software.

Re: Will it remove Windows 10?

[BenFranske]

Yeah, you're not the target audience and are probably not going to be installing shady registry cleaners and system optimization utilities anyway. Are you also saying we as a society shouldn't try and shut down sketchy con-artist retailers because you're not stupid enough to fall for what they're selling and should be able to waste your money if you want to? Sometimes there are larger social issues at work than just you. You can always turn off Windows Defender if you don't like what it's doing...or run another OS if you prefer.

Re:Will it remove Windows 10?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

It will be absolutely hilarious if someone offended by this takes legal action that results in some sort of anti-competition ruling against Microsoft for penalising other coercive messaging software but not its own.

Re:Will it remove Windows 10?

[Khyber]

" was on W10 but the updates kept removing the USB device drivers for observatory equipment and replacing it with a 'newer' generic that knew nothing about the gear."

Is your IT staff so incompetent as to not know that you use the "have disk" driver update option and point specifically to the .inf file to force usage of drivers other than generics, since this has kinda been the standard since XP?

Right-click start button>Device Manager>Imaging Devices>right-click your observatory equipment (since you're just using a digital telescope, right?)>Update Driver software>Browse My Computer for Driver>Let me Pick from a list of device drivers>Have Disk.

Bam, now your stuff will show up. You might have to disable driver signature enforcement (which requires you to rebot first before installing the driver) but it works, and always has worked, since XP.

Re: Will it remove Windows 10?

[rogoshen1]

You can always turn off Windows Defender if you don't like what it's doing

For now.

The windows update bullshit shows where they'd like to go with this. Start small, get users accustomed to the 'user experience improvements', then continually encroach.
But basically, MS wants to control your computer, and turn it into a conveyance for advertising, or into a platform for gathering data-- er.. sorry, telemetry about you and your computing habits.

Because one Google was not enough for this world.

Re: Will it remove Windows 10?

[CaptainDork]

And answer the goddam phone.

I called 7 times and left 4 messages, "Hi, this is Windows. I be calling you sir to tell that virus infect computer. Allow me to connect long distance and removing infected for $89 dollaros, US, please or your license will escape."

Re:Will it remove Windows 10?

[Rick Schumann]

No, but I'll bet cash money it removes things you actually want, that compete with a Miscreant-o-soft product.

Re: Will it remove Windows 10?

[BenFranske]

But basically, MS wants to control your computer, and turn it into a conveyance for advertising, or into a platform for gathering data-- er.. sorry, telemetry about you and your computing habits.

Maybe, that's what alternative operating systems are for. Trust me I'm right in line to raise a ruckus if something like only allowing signed operating systems on your PC (ala some of the UEFI proposals) but it's not like there aren't alternative OS choices here. If Microsoft wants to make Windows into a cesspool of advertising so be it.

Re:Will it remove Windows 10?

[Opportunist]

Damn right, so we can't have that. This town is only big enough for one mobster gang!

Re:Will it remove Windows 10?

[Khyber]

You're so incompetent that you don't realize that the generic driver installation is something done BY DEFAULT and you must manually bypass it for many device installs. Your GPU drivers actually do this, you just don't see it because its done via hidden command line execution. If the GPU drivers did not do this, when you reboot, Windows would revert to seeing your card as a plain VGA card and not give you 3D acceleration.

You're a complete fucking moron.

Re:Will it remove Windows 10?

[toddestan]

Windows 10 LSTB is only available with the Enterprise version and its associated licensing. So for any small shops or home users, you are effectively locked out of using the LTSB branch (unless you pirate it).

Re:Will it remove Windows 10?

[Khyber]

"Manually installing a driver does zero good when Windows Update decides that it has a better one and installs over it."

When you install the way I listed above, Windows Update doesn't fuck with the driver. But morons like you wouldn't know that.

Not enough

[duke_cheetah2003]

If it were me, I'd configure Windows Defender to flag all third party malware/virus remove trash as malware themselves. Snakeoil all of it. Outright theft and preying on the weak minded with fear.

Re:Not enough

[duke_cheetah2003]

Eh, that's mostly bullshit, you're lumping all A/V or 3rd party security products with the worst offenders.

They're all garbage. Even Windows Defender. But at least Windows Defender doesn't try to milk you for $$$.

The best security protect available is simply training users how to identify bullshit when it comes and how to react to it.

In my 25+ years of using computers, I have first-hand experienced ONLY ONE virus. ONE. In 25 years. The only thing I've ever seen a malware/virus scanner ever report as a problem is keygens and an IRC script, which were not really threats. That one virus did not come from a website, download, or anything like that. Some 'friend' sent me a file over an instant message program and that file was infected.

Re:Not enough

[duke_cheetah2003]

I'm with you on the "general" need for A/V *IF AND ONLY IF* you have best-practice safe browsing and avoid obvious pitfalls - however that's NOT ALL WINDOWS USERS!

Which is why I am one of those exceptionally evil people who believe you should have a license, training and certification to be allowed near ANY computer device. We require it for amateur radio, driving a car, practicing medicine, law, etc. Should need a license to use a computer too, so you know what the fuck you're doing. It's at a point where irresponsible usage of a computer HARMS OTHERS.

Re:Not enough

[david_thornley]

If you define best-practice safe browsing as avoiding all sites that use advertising (and some are being uncooperative with AdBlock Plus), you may have a point. My wife got pwned by visiting the New York Times once.

Re:Not enough

[duke_cheetah2003]

So in your 25+ years of using computers, you haven't had any whiff of the notion of just how difficult what your proposing is?

It's not difficult. You just wish it were, as do most AV vendors. Want to take notes? Cool. Don't download stuff from any sites except from the official site for the program you're interested in acquiring. Don't install stuff from unknown vendors, vet the vendor, know who's behind the program. Only visit websites that're run by companies you trust. Use an ad-blocker at all times. And for the love of god, don't click links until you LOOK at where it goes. That status bar isn't there just for shits'n'giggles. Don't open email attachments EVER, unless you have TALKED to the person who sent the attachment and are expecting it. Don't click links in emails, even if it's from a company you know. Manually go to their website yourself if the email directs you to do so.

That basically the industry has been trying to solve that problem for MUCH LONGER THAN 25 YEARS?

This is just silly. The industry hasn't existed for 25 years. Let's see, 2018 - 25 = 1993. So just about around the first days of websites coming online. Malware in this age was most often spread via infected 3.5" floppies, and were generally destructive in nature (wipe your HDD typically.) Destructive virus' aren't really seen much anymore because they destroy spread vectors. We haven't seen majorly destructive virus' in a long time. Basically, 1993 is probably near the first signs of virus appearing on computer systems. We hadn't even seen the first internet worm in 1993.

People rail and rant and rave up and down about the insecurity of our computer systems, well, fucking duh? When we first designed these systems, we didn't think our fellow man would introduce destructive, malicious programs into the wild to fuck with everything. There's nothing wrong with these systems and computers, it's the fucking people that are broken. So instead of trying to fix our computers, which by the way work just fine, we should try to fix people to use the fucking things properly.

Re:Not enough

[eaglesrule]

So you're the exception, rather than the rule. For those in support roles for large organizations, dealing with malware is a daily occurrence. There is only so many screws to tighten security wise until users become frustrated and angry.

Since there is no perfect security, there has to be a multi layered approach and A/V is one of these layers that provides herd immunity with hourly updates as threats are identified.

MS providing an ineffective AV solution won't really affect their bottom line. A vendor whose business model and reputation is staked on it might approach the product differently.

Re:Not enough

[duke_cheetah2003]

Regardless of your other point, stop emulating Trump please unless you also want to die in prison.

I think invoking Trump's name is going to soon be as much as a faux pas as invoking Hitler and Nazi. Godwin's law and all that. Besides, you should've declared it as "fake news" for proper effect.

Re:Not enough

[eaglesrule]

I know it is easy to put all the blame on Grandma for "holding it wrong", but software companies should take some responsibility too when they sell products where security is barely an afterthought. Paid software engineers, the 'licensed experts' if you will, gave us Adobe Flash as example and the security nightmare that it was.

Re:Not enough

[TheRaven64]

That used to be an argument, but in the last couple of years the major AV vendors have all shipped serious vulnerabilities. My favourite was in the Symantec product, which decided that the best place to put code that decoded images and scanned them was in the kernel. It would do this as soon as an image appeared in the filesystem, so if you went to a web page and your browser cached the image locally, or if you received an email with an image attachment and your mail client stored it to disk, the scanner would run. This sounds almost useful, and would have been if the thing dealing with the untrusted (and assumed to be at least potentially malicious) data had been in an unprivileged process with read-only access to the data and the ability to write a single bit of state outside. Unfortunately, it wasn't, and when someone found a vulnerability in the image decoder, it became possible to run arbitrary code in kernel space simply by persuading the user to store an image on their disk (which a lot of programs did automatically in response to network events).

I think you're probably better off with the vulnerabilities that Windows ships with than those, minus a small chance that you'll be protected from exploits, plus the ones that these clowns introduce.

Will it stop APK

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Windows Defender protect me from APK and his spamming? Does it protect me from his hosts file manipulations?

Re:Will it stop APK

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't cleanse your hosts file with essential oils and tide pods then you need APK's optimizations.

Re:Will it stop APK

[thegarbz]

I think there's a hosts entry that can do that for you.

Bundled Avast on my Win10?

[Train0987]

The Win10 that came on my HP laptop was bundled with Avast that throws the same scary "You may be infected! Upgrade Today!" messages. I jumped through hoops to remove it completely and then sometime last week it came back all on its own after a forced Windows Update.

Re:Bundled Avast on my Win10?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can thank HP for that, not Microsoft. Next time buy Asus or Acer (maybe even Fujitsu, Microsoft or even MSI), and remove all the useless "branding" software and tools.

Re:Bundled Avast on my Win10?

[ryanmc1]

I always wipe and reinstall with a clean version of Windows when I get a new computer. No exceptions. The drivers are easily found online and I make a backup disk or backup USB of the drivers incase something happens. This has made things much more enjoyable with the laptops I buy. With Windows 10 this is super easy because Microsoft provides a software package that will create an installer for you, and because Win10 registers itself online with your hardware specs you don't even need a key. It really is easy and I highly recommend it.

Re:Bundled Avast on my Win10?

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

It's still super-difficult to remove all of M$'s "AppX" crap. Even after running a 50-line Powershell script for both AppX and AppXPackages, my syspreped image updated itself and re-installed DuoLingo, Pandora, MSN News, etc. At least the Cortana removal seems to stick. I'm working on some GPO's to keep it all off, but its all TOTAL BULLSHIT.

Why is God's name does my "Enterprise" OS come with Xbox shit that is "part of the OS" and unremovable? We are trying to make Win10E NIST 800-171 compliant, and I doubt there is any way in HELL to get it 800-53 compliant.

There are rumors of a DoD-level "version" of Win10, that I assume M$ handed it's source code to the Feds and said "here, do with it what you need" to get it complaint. Of course, the rest of the population still has to deal with their advertising, "pushed apps", and more showing up.

Re:Bundled Avast on my Win10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Asus and Acer fix that problem by having the hardware crap out before the trial A/V subscription is over. Absolute garbage.

For a laptop, I would buy a enterprise-level machine, such as a Dell Latitude or a Thinkpad. Though not HP, as their stuff is trash, even at the enterprise level.

I've got a bad feeling about this.

[jrq]

This will not end well.

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand...

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

"And you should upgrade to Windows 11 right away to continue getting security updates after Windows 10 becomes unsupported!"

Now this is a stress test of the new feature!

Microsoft doesn't like competition

[Big Bipper]

They feel they should be the only ones spreading FUD ( fear uncertainty doubt ), to say nothing of the patent trolls they support.

Had to block that part of defender anyway

[nospam007]

Wouldn't stop bitching about uTorrent.

Re:Had to block that part of defender anyway

[Linsaran]

Wouldn't stop bitching about uTorrent.

uTorrent is pretty garbage these days anyways, ever since the original creator sold it. I switched to Deluge long ago

Someone call me an ambulance ...

[Obfuscant]

"We find this practice problematic because it can pressure customers into making unnecessary purchase decisions,"

The irony of this statement in this article combined with the article just above it about Office 2019 not running on anything but Windows 10 (thus forcing an OS upgrade if you upgrade Office) is killing me. How about this for a purchasing decision: I still have a CD with Office 97 on it; one of the last Offices to require activation and keys and phoning home to momma.

However, after the last round of Norton putting up unclosable "Hey, how about installing me on all your other computers?" message windows, even after being told "NO never ask me again" and setting the "don't show promo messages" option in settings, I can see why something needs to be done. I had gotten used to the non-window messages about buying upgraded versions of AVG but Norton wins for obnoxious. AVG draws directly on the screen, creating something that LOOKS like a window, with an X to close it and a button to buy, but it's not actually a window. Whatever is behind the X and buttons are still active. You have to refresh the desktop to remove it. I can't imagine who approved such a marketing tactic.

Re:Someone call me an ambulance ...

[CanadianMacFan]

If it doesn't give you the option of closing the window can't you kill the process with the process manager or whatever Microsoft calls it (I've been away from Windows for a long time I've forgotten)? That's what I used to do when the situation came up but that was on XP so things have probably changed.

As for Office, you don't have to upgrade right away. You only have to upgrade when the people you work with upgrade and can never remember to save in an earlier version because Microsoft tends to make a new format with each version that is incompatible with earlier ones even though only the UI really changes.

Re:Someone call me an ambulance ...

[Obfuscant]

If it doesn't give you the option of closing the window can't you kill the process with the process manager or whatever Microsoft calls it

Which process? Why should I have to do that in the first place? And when I tell it to never come back, it comes back.

As for Office, you don't have to upgrade right away.

And you don't have to buy the things that nagware nags you about. It seems that Microsoft is being hypocritical here, doesn't it?

Oh, the irony!

[jenningsthecat]

With all the bullshit Microsoft pulled to both manipulate and coerce users into upgrading to their rented-spyware-posing-as-an-OS, this is really rich. OTOH I kinda get it, from the organized-crime / extortionist view that says "get offa my turf, punk!"

Re:Oh, the irony!

[thegarbz]

Providing a free software upgrade vs scamming people out of money for absolutely nothing? Yeah totally comparable.

Re:Oh, the irony!

[jenningsthecat]

Providing a free software upgrade vs scamming people out of money for absolutely nothing? Yeah totally comparable.

Providing a forced and unwanted "free" software upgrade which is in many ways a downgrade, vs scamming people out of money for absolutely nothing? Yeah, you're right - they're not all that comparable. The scammers who only take your money are a finite drain on your resources, while the lingering pain, privacy invasion, and theft of your time represented by Windows 10 just goes on and on and on...

Re:Oh, the irony!

[thegarbz]

Providing a forced and unwanted

Citation required. The vast majority of people don't give a shit what OS they have.

self censorship

[rraylion]

It would be great if it got rid of those annoying Microsoft ads that come up. Or if you are one of those unlucky people with home edition the mandatory upgrades that force your computer to close, even if you don't want to install it.

But hey i'm acting like I own my computer, I forgot I am really leasing it from the OS.

Re:self censorship

[Required Snark]

You are a peasant, not a citizen. Peasants don't have ultimate control over the property they think they own.

Edge and Cortana

[vux984]

Dear Microsoft,

Really looking forward to this feature in Defender. I hate that coercive messaging stuff. I can't wait for it to remove Edge and Cortana from my system.

Thanks

First Things First

[eaglesrule]

Nothing reflects MS's attitude of 'suck it bitch' more than the new style of dialog in Win10, too. A computer using 'we' words is meant to remind you who the tool is, not the machine doing whatever MS wants it to do.

Next Virus

[BeemanIT]

Windows Defender thinks Windows is the issue and uninstalls the OS.

So they're going to remove "Edge" browser?

[brainchill]

So they're going to remove "Edge" browser? This thing constantly tries to talk me out of using or installing other browsers....

Brain's "HOWTO" user manual

[DrYak]

Are you also saying we as a society shouldn't try and shut down sketchy con-artist retailers because you're not stupid enough to fall for what they're selling and should be able to waste your money if you want to?

Or maybe, we should reconsider the education system a bit :
Maybe instead of blocking targets that are semi arbitrary labelled as "con artists" on the grounds of trying to shelter stupid people,
we should instead educate stupid people and teach them how to use their brain and do their due information search to not fall for cons/snake oil/conspiracy theory/etc. ?

Maybe if people just didn't forget how to use their brains, we'll have a lot less problems with people falling to stupid tricks.

Just saying...