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Uber and Lyft Want You Banned From Using Your Own Self-Driving Car in Urban Areas (siliconbeat.com)

An anonymous reader quotes the Mercury News: The rabble can't be trusted with self-driving cars, and only companies operating fleets of them should be able to use them in dense urban areas. So say Uber and Lyft, as signatories to a new list of transportation goals developed by a group of international non-governmental organizations and titled "Shared Mobility Principles for Livable Cities"... According to Principle No. 10, "Shared fleets can provide more affordable access to all, maximize public safety and emissions benefits, ensure that maintenance and software upgrades are managed by professionals..."
It's stated reason is to "actualize the promise of reductions in vehicles, parking, and congestion, in line with broader policy trends to reduce the use of personal cars in dense urban areas." But others remain suspicious.

Gizmodo complains that the proposal "doesn't exactly sound like the freedom-filled future sci-fi writers have been promising, now does it?" and concludes that Uber and Lyft "have a hot new idea for screwing over city-dwellers."

247 comments

  1. New direction for Uber by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, basically the complete opposite of what Uber currently says they stand for (people owning their own vehicles and using them to make some extra money "sharing" rides).

    Uber clearly has the best interests of the people at heart and isn't just in it to make a buck by whatever means are more convenient.

    1. Re:New direction for Uber by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also, the complete opposite of their normal attitude about regulations.

      It is disgusting, and this is going to really cut the legs out from under a lot of their supporters, because this is a lot of double-speak to ask of people!

    2. Re:New direction for Uber by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can you say "rent seeking"? Sure, I thought you could.

    3. Re:New direction for Uber by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      this is going to really cut the legs out from under a lot of their supporters

      Right, because lots of people "support" Uber because of their reputation for ethical behavior. Sure. Whatever.

      Seriously, get some perspective. If you made a list of all the unethical and illegal crap that Uber has done, this wouldn't even make the top one hundred.

    4. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "You making money" has nothing to do with what Uber stands for. Uber could care less about you making money. If they could figure out a way for you to make nothing while still driving for them, they'd pursue that in a New York minute.

      Uber stands for Uber.

      Only.

      Ever.

    5. Re:New direction for Uber by WarJolt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It reminds me of Airliners. Commercial Airliners always want to push out General Aviation, as if they aren't paying their "fair share". Really they just want to own more of the sky. The airspace is for all Americans to use and so is the road as long as you can use it responsibly. We need to prevent profit-seeking corporations from co-opting the public welfare. It almost never works out the way they claim.

    6. Re:New direction for Uber by gfxguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not really what they say, though - if everyone is driving themselves, then there's nobody to pay for a ride.

      The obvious self interest doesn't escape me, but for the goals they are stating "to 'actualize the promise of reductions in vehicles, parking, and congestion, in line with broader policy trends to reduce the use of personal cars in dense urban areas.'," they aren't wrong, either.

      I'm not saying I agree with these companies, but a lot of good ideas get shot down with knee jerk reactions simply because somebody stands to make a profit on them.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    7. Re:New direction for Uber by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 0

      Also, the complete opposite of their normal attitude about regulations.

      The point of regulations, while they may start at an intent to help the public, quickly becomes another way to limit competition and protect existing companies by setting up barriers to entry.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    8. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't hard stuff. Seriously.

      Yes, it is. On the Internet, understanding people is about 1000 times more rare than any other place.

    9. Re: New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. There's also the fact that currently, there are no self-driving cars.

    10. Re:New direction for Uber by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      A recent story talked about how Uber claims driverless trucks will increase (not decrease) employment of human truck-drivers to support short local routes, i.e., in urban areas.

      I suppose banning all driverless vehicles except those of Uber and Lyft would be one way to do that... /sarcasm

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    11. Re: New direction for Uber by vtcodger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "currently, there are no self-driving cars"

      You need to have vision laddie. If you come to the rent-seeking party only when self driving cars become available, there may be naught but crumbs available because all the profitable franchises have been locked down by forward thinking innovators.

      BTW, What do you want to bet that the "Shared Mobility Principles for Livable Cities" includes getting rid of slow, dangerous, dirty, public transportation services and banning inefficient government run taxis and ride sharing?

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    12. Re:New direction for Uber by viperidaenz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They only want regular people owning the cars because car maintenance is a cost they don't want to bare and so is commercial vehicle insurance.

      If they can operate a fleet without paying a driver, they'll save money. They can run the cars 24x7 and I'm sure they'll get good insurance rates for their fancy autonomous vehicles.

    13. Re:New direction for Uber by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So, basically the complete opposite of what Uber currently says they stand for (people owning their own vehicles and using them to make some extra money "sharing" rides). Uber clearly has the best interests of the people at heart and isn't just in it to make a buck by whatever means are more convenient.

      My guess is they're not even being serious, they're just trolling for PR and VC money like when Ryanair suggests standing passengers on airplanes. Outrage causes buzz and somehow it's more important that people are talking about you than what they're saying.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    14. Re: New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like any network, there is a shirt peak utilization time period (rush hour) and then a whole lot of massively underutilized hours. Sure, they can operate an autonomous car 24x7, but there may only be demand for it 20% of the time, sort of like how most people who own a car keep them parked 19+ hours a day.

    15. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any, and all, corporations speak only in their self interest. FULL STOP

    16. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't really trust their motivations here, but they're probably right that people would cheap out on repairs and a faulty sensor could be quite deadly on such a car.

      Granted, I wonder how much we should trust businesses with keeping up on proper maintenance while we're at it. Sure, there's liability law and all that but it's a bit hard to say what would be enough.

    17. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd be fine with it so long as they'd be required to pay for all road maintenance. I get a funny feeling though they'd still expect roads to be tax payer funded.

    18. Re: New direction for Uber by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

      So, basically the complete opposite of what Uber currently says they stand for (people owning their own vehicles and using them to make some extra money sharing rides).

      Uber clearly has the best interests of the people at heart and isnt just in it to make a buck by whatever means are more convenient.

      Itâ(TM)s almost as if they are a giant, rich corporation, acting anti-competitively, and against the general interest, instead in favor of themselves.

      THIS is what happens when you engineer a system that is designed to reward money-making at any and all costs, to the exclusion (and often, to the detriment) of ANY and ALL other considerations. The system is SICK, and it is slowly but surely and inexorably destroying what is left of our so-called civilization. If we fail to fix this somehow, it is going to destroy us. I cannot say exactly HOW we can fix this, I will not even state as a matter of fact that I believe it CAN be fixed. BUT, it IS, I will assert as a fact, that our system is untenable, unsustainable, and living on borrowed time, and someday, the piper will have to be paid.

      All any of us can hope for is to die before that day, and to die old, generally surrounded by loving family, children, grandchildren, etc., which necessarily implies the DAY (that the piper will have to be paid,) is a long, long way off, and with each passing day, it comes one day closer, and it seems more and more evident that it cannot be pushed off far enough for even MOST of us to be able to die peacefully in our sleep, old, surrounded by loved-ones, because boy... it is a-coming, and that right-soon. Some might say that it is selfishness to hope for that, because if we, (the current generation alive,) can manage to get out of this life, having lived full lives, before the lowering of the boom on all of us, that means all those loving children and grandchildren I just mentioned, will be the ones to live through the coming Second Age of Darkness... and why should we hope THEY fix it when we could, and we do not?

      --
      Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
    19. Re:New direction for Uber by PPH · · Score: 1

      Uber started out as a ride sharing company. A way for people who were already on the road to give another person a lift. But the Uber drivers preferred to be cab company employees. With guaranteed hours, benefits, collective bargaining, etc.

      So Uber just says, "Screw it. We're a cab company now. And we are out to maximize our revenue and eliminate competition. Just be thankful that this doesn't involve the competition floating in the East River."

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    20. Re:New direction for Uber by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Do you have any evidence that airlines are trying to shut down general aviation, because it's something I have never, ever heard of.

    21. Re:New direction for Uber by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A lot of Slashdotters defend Uber (or used to anyway) based on them upsetting the admittedly corrupt taxi industry. Now they not only want to replace the taxi industry, but they want to make it so not only can't you run a taxi to compete with them, you can't even own the vehicle to do it.

      There was also a lot of "oh, Uber is just matching people who want to share rides!" which was always BS. Uber was never about ridesharing.

    22. Re:New direction for Uber by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, I skip any sentence that starts with words like "actualize."

      Seriously, reducing cars in dense urban areas is great. However, there seem to be two reasonable ways to do it: provide alternatives that compete with personal vehicles or provide public transportation and regulations against personal vehicles.

      The Uber way, legislating a for-profit exclusive private service that doesn't even have to compete with personal vehicles, is just ripe for abuse.

    23. Re:New direction for Uber by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I'm sure if you plug the right assumptions into a simulation you could get that to work out, sure. The summary for that story said that they were assuming driverless trucks would replace long haul drivers and not local ones, which seems like a pretty iffy proposition, particularly since uber themselves are talking about autonomous cab fleets. Also, what local delivery modes are going to suddenly switch to trucks if long haul trucking gets cheaper? Most long haul transportation in north america is already truck, and pretty much all local delivery.

    24. Re:New direction for Uber by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      No disagreement.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    25. Re:New direction for Uber by Ayanami_R · · Score: 1

      And if anyone can do it, no one makes money. They'll never make a buck unless they can successfully perform regulatory capture.

      --
      "Science is the power of man"
    26. Re:New direction for Uber by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      like when Ryanair suggests standing passengers on airplanes.

      They're sending a clear propaganda message there that they are the cheapest. Someone will think, "Ryan Air? And I can sit down still? They're probably the cheapest."

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    27. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course not, it's just conspiracy theory nonsense from people who oppose privatized ATC on ideological grounds. Just to be clear, I couldn't care less either way. I think privatizing ATC would probably be a waste of time any money and wouldn't improve things in any meaningful way, but I don't buy the argument that airlines want to use it to bleed GA. It would be counterproductive for airlines to shut down general aviation because that's how a large percentage of their pilots learn to fly. Do you think the airlines want to pay for that training? General aviation rarely shares the same airspace or airports with commercial aviation anyway and wouldn't you rather have someone else paying part of the cost than pay the entire cost yourself?

    28. Re:New direction for Uber by No+Longer+an+AC · · Score: 1

      I have to say they are particularly evil and they're actually offering an argument that might convince some people - don't trust the average citizen with an autonomous car. You can only trust big businesses like Uber,.

      (Uber can drive an SDC better than us average citizens can...so they say).

      It's absurd of course, but they are bold enough to try it.

    29. Re: New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      noncomprende

    30. Re: New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      who is liable: not the AI not the passenger not the car....

    31. Re:New direction for Uber by Darkling-MHCN · · Score: 1

      Or maybe it does.

      Does everyone really need their own vehicle?

      You ever considered how much waste there is in a system where everyone owns a car and how much less waste there would be in which every vehicle on the roads is shared?

      As the world population grows owning your own car will be considered a luxury. Many things are going to have to change as the world's population expands. It seems like a harsh reality but that's the sort of future where heading into if we keep increasing the population from 7 to 8? to 9? to X billion people on the planet?

      Of course Uber can see where its all going and it wants to be the company managing a fully automated networked urban transportation system of the future.

      These systems are destined to exist, it's simply a matter of who is going to control them.

    32. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Soooo you really thought they cared about regulations except for where they were the beneficiary? many have pointed this out continually that uber only care about regulations when they are impeding their ability to make a profit. their stance and attitude hasn't changed just now others are starting to see it.

    33. Re:New direction for Uber by gravewax · · Score: 2

      I don't think Uber have EVER been about deregulation, they have only been about removing regulations that make them less profitable. I have never heard them protest a regulation where it wasn't specifically in their best interest to have the regulation removed.

    34. Re:New direction for Uber by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      Seriously, get some perspective. If you made a list of all the unethical and illegal crap that Uber has done, this wouldn't even make the top one hundred.

      maybe so, but it was still better than rent-seeking taxi monopolies. like come on, to have it be illegal to take a guy to a place and take money from him for doing so.. unless you have a permit.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    35. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, the complete opposite of their normal attitude about regulations.

      It is disgusting, and this is going to really cut the legs out from under a lot of their supporters, because this is a lot of double-speak to ask of people!

      If they still have any supporters left, then yes. But honestly, is there anyone out there that is still cheering for Uber?

    36. Re: New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uber and Lyft have every intention of replacing drivers with new technology.

    37. Re: New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such thing as "ride-sharing" it's nomenclature to make people feel good about spending money. If you pay for goods or services, you're not sharing. You're making a purchase.

    38. Re:New direction for Uber by sphealey · · Score: 1

      - - - - - who are anti-regulation and that's why they support a company that ignores regulations. - - - - -

      Nice euphemism for breaks the law.

    39. Re:New direction for Uber by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I don't really trust their motivations here, but they're probably right that people would cheap out on repairs and a faulty sensor could be quite deadly on such a car.

      If it's designed correctly the software on a self driving car won't let you "drive" it or at least limit the driving modes if a sensor if faulty.

    40. Re: New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regulations are written in blood. There is actually a written regulation saying nuclear waste transported on ships cannot be stored in crew quarters... Because some shipping companies actually tried to increase profit by loading up more nuclear waste than they could fit in the hold and putting the drums under the crew bunks. Any proposal for deregulation that doesn't also include a fix for the murderous behavior that led to the regulation in the first place is therefore akin to culpable homicide in my view.

    41. Re: New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People support uber because it costs less than taxis. I wouldn't read any more into it.

    42. Re:New direction for Uber by stephenmac7 · · Score: 2

      It's not a euphemism. They're the same thing.

      And that's what some people support about Uber: that they have broken laws that should never have existed in the first place. But lobbying for new bad laws makes them just as bad as everyone else.

      --
      "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." -- Judge Gideon J. Tucker
    43. Re:New direction for Uber by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Seriously, get some perspective. If you made a list of all the unethical and illegal crap that Uber has done, this wouldn't even make the top one hundred.

      maybe so, but it was still better than rent-seeking taxi monopolies. like come on, to have it be illegal to take a guy to a place and take money from him for doing so.. unless you have a permit.

      Really, you want any person to be able to roll around and pick people up and transport them for a fare, without any kind of oversight or regulation? Sure, what could go wrong?

      What happens when the driver is in an accident and the passenger is injured? Who pays? Will the driver's insurance cover it? What happens if there is a fare dispute? Is the fare even disclosed up front? Says who? You really want to negotiate the fare every time you step into some strangers's car? On that point, you really want to get into some rando's car and trust that they're going to take you where you want to go?

      You really want taking a taxi to be basically like hitchhiking? Maybe you should think this through for, like, a minute.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    44. Re:New direction for Uber by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Also, the complete opposite of their normal attitude about regulations.

      The point of regulations, while they may start at an intent to help the public, quickly becomes another way to limit competition and protect existing companies by setting up barriers to entry.

      So, is that an argument that we shouldn't have regulations, or that they should be better implemented?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    45. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how about handing over all ATC employees, navigation equipment worth billions, funding and taxation, and removing government oversight? And that is just this year.
      http://www.atcnotforsale.com/

    46. Re:New direction for Uber by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

      I remember, they had commercials at the airport, or at least used to. Cartoony looking talking about little planes fucking shit up and not paying the same amount.

    47. Re:New direction for Uber by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      A lot of Slashdotters defend Uber (or used to anyway) based on them upsetting the admittedly corrupt taxi industry.

      LOL, which one is it that has workers making sub-livable wages and routinely gets caught using black hat software again, to say nothing of the stuff that goes on inside the company? The taxi industry looks like a choir boy compared to real-life cyberpunk villain megacorp Uber.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    48. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is possible to not want to use such a service oneself wile also not thinking the services should be prevented from existing by law.

      And for the most part the issue can be resolved by putting all the responsibility/liability on the driver.
      get in an accident with a passanger? driver's liable.
      fare dispute? unless the driver can prove the passanger agreed to the fare they get nothing.
      etc.

      This way the benefits of insurance, verified meter, etc. are in the driver's best interest.

    49. Re:New direction for Uber by Bongo · · Score: 1

      You are alive, and are one of the individuals who previous generations predicted could not be alive. You are one of the ones who should already have died a miserable death due to resource depletion. The simple reason why, I would guess, it is so very difficult to calculate the optimum carrying capacity of the planet, is that every human is both an asset and a liability. And every brain is a new opportunity to create new resources out of what previous generations thought was mere waste or previous generations did not know how to use. For example, much of the planet is desert, and we rely on agriculture (a 10,000 year old invention). What if future generations invent better systens which understand nature better than we do? In ways we cannot imagine? Just as previous generations could not imagine how you, you as an individual, could indeed be alive today?

    50. Re: New direction for Uber by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention regulatory capture. Basically once the regulations benefit Uber, suddenly they are all for them.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    51. Re:New direction for Uber by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Also, the complete opposite of their normal attitude about regulations.

      The point of regulations, while they may start at an intent to help the public, quickly becomes another way to limit competition and protect existing companies by setting up barriers to entry.

      So, is that an argument that we shouldn't have regulations, or that they should be better implemented?

      Not so much an argument for either point but rather an explanation that regulated entities seek to use regulations regulators to their advantage to keep out competitors. Even the best intended regulations can be compromised in this way; hat doesn't mean regulation is bad or should be avoided but need also to be considered for their impact on competition insofar as the setup barriers to entry or give other advantages to incumbents.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    52. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is nothing new for *any* American corporation, with the exception that they allowed this particular thing to go public.
      All American corporations are guilty of publicly claiming that the eebil gubmint is killing them with regulations, and if the aforementioned gubmint would just get out of the way, they'd be able to innovate... and pay people better... and cheese and wine would fall from the heavens... and all problems would be solved and we'd have our utopia!
      While simultaneously lobbying in backrooms for more regulations - just ones that help them, don't hold them accountable or limit their liability, and erect and extend barriers to entry for any potential new competitors. They play off the views of 'conservatives' and mistrust of government to gain support for wiping out the regs they don't want, ones that hold them accountable and allow competition... then turn around in their backroom deals and laugh about the gullibility of the American electorate, who consistently keeps supporting them and their paid for politicians, no matter how many times they screw said electorate over.

      It's disgusting and reprehensible. I'm not sure, however, if it's more or less disgusting and reprehensible than the fact that the American electorate continues to take the spoon feeding of the mainstream media (who happens to be owned by some of the largest conglomerates guilty of the above) and refuses to think for themselves and educate themselves, but still votes.

    53. Re:New direction for Uber by redlemming · · Score: 1

      It reminds me of Airliners. Commercial Airliners always want to push out General Aviation, as if they aren't paying their "fair share". Really they just want to own more of the sky. The airspace is for all Americans to use and so is the road as long as you can use it responsibly. We need to prevent profit-seeking corporations from co-opting the public welfare. It almost never works out the way they claim.

      Unfortunately, what economists call rent-seeking behaviour has become a dominant aspect of the US economy and politics - and in our increasingly global economy it is being exported to other countries via treaties. This is probably the single most important cause of the massive concentration of wealth in the upper income brackets that has occurred in recent decades - and it has all kinds of negative implications for society.

      Lindsey and Teles have a decent introduction to this topic in their book "The Captured Economy". They discuss rent-seeking in the context of finance, land zoning, patant/copyright, and occupational licensing - but note that there are many other forms this disease takes.

      Thus, it's a not just question of preventing this behaviour moving forward - it's a question of undoing the results of many decades of self-centered sociopathic greed, results that are deeply embedded in the legal system and that have strong special interest groups protecting them. Typically, the rent-seeking conduct is protected by a bodyguard of lies, which further complicates matters.

      From a Bill of Rights perspective, most and perhaps all forms of rent-seeking behaviour ultimately involve some sort of violation of the right to ethical practice of law, or the right to ethical government - both universal and inalienable rights in any society based on the rule of law, and certainly two of the rights "retained by the people" under the 9th Amendment, and "reserved to the people" under the 10th Amendment. Thus, it is clear that many of the laws in the US (including federal, state, and local law) are in violation of the Bill of Rights.

      However, the US legal profession has a long and sordid history of ignoring their obligations in this matter, perhaps because they are one of the largest and most powerful rent-seeking special interest groups in the country. By some estimates, half of the average pay of US lawyers comes from rent-seeking. This means that any type of reform faces a very difficult uphill battle, even though the laws supporting the rent-seeking behaviour are in clear violation of the highest law in the land.

      Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    54. Re:New direction for Uber by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      I think the only thing remotely criminal that Traditional taxi companies were accused of is being a money laundry for organized crime.

    55. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every second week we drive go camping are you suggesting we Uber their with our camper on the beach and Uber back ? Then once a years we holiday for four weeks in our 4WD are you also suggesting with Uber around Australia or the Simpson desert ?

      Shane

    56. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much everything AOPA/EAA vs ALPA. Light Sport Aircraft, BasicMed, privatized ATC, etc.

    57. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, basically the complete opposite of what Uber currently says they stand for (people owning their own vehicles and using them to make some extra money "sharing" rides).

      In case you missed it, Uber are assholes.

      Their entire business model is pretending laws don't apply to them, which now that they believe has legitimized their bullshit business model, wish to have their primacy entrenched in law.

      Fuck Uber and their bullshit. They will never see a dime of my money, and any law passed to entrench their position is something people should immediately protest and say "oh, no, that law doesn't apply to us".

      The entire company of Uber can get bent over and gang-raped for all I care ... but they need to stop trying to basically doing shit like this.

      They're just a pirate cab company who pretends laws don't apply to them. That they now want to secure their own position by passing laws to prevent other people from having cars just re-affirms that Uber is ran by a bunch of assholes and douchebags.

      Fuck Uber.

    58. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't object to anyone deciding to use someone else's SDV plan for getting around. I also think the rate will increase naturally. What I strenuously object to is the government telling people they can't choose to run their own SDV. I further object to the urging to this effect by the very firms that stand to profit by such legislation, particularly when one of those firms is almost comical in their likeness to evil corporation tropes. I think the most relevant trope (of the myriad they exemplify) is "Rules are for Other People."

    59. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The airspace is for all Americans to use

      How very American. Did you know that other countries also have airspace too?

    60. Re:New direction for Uber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      most of the regulations in place were due to the criminal behaviour of taxi companies with everything from meter tampering, money laundering, stand over tactics against competition and cutting corners on maintenance and safety. Now those regulations are relaxing we see Uber doing the same if not worse. sadly humans suck and are greedy and regulations are a necessary evil.

  2. New Boss by Templer421 · · Score: 2

    Same as the Old Boss (Taxi Companies)

    1. Re:New Boss by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      Nope, the old bosses were threatenable. Because any given taxi/driver can be replaced. Local governments could regulate them. Lyft and Uber are large enough to fight city hall. They can afford to lose all the revenue from a major US city for an indeterminate period to display credible threats to the others.

      In other words, you think the competition for Amazon's second headquarters is a large company throwing its weight around./p.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    2. Re:New Boss by Darkling-MHCN · · Score: 0

      Uber is nothing like any taxi company that has ever been.

      Taxi companies around the world have been small operators limited to cities and states with almost no budget to deliver the kind of tech Uber is going to deliver. The kind of tech needed for a future world in which we'll have to economise on everything we do to accommodate the burgeoning populous.

      The world is currently heading for a cliff. Technology is the only thing which can possibly help us avert disaster.

  3. good for liability & saves owners from faceing by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    good for liability & saves owners from facing criminal changes when the owner is just one guy and the he does have the funds to go court to get the source code so he can say the software messed up.

  4. How u say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Up Yours?

    1. Re:How u say by haruchai · · Score: 2

      Up Yours?

      Uber alles?

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    2. Re: How u say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Self fornication? Solo copulation?

  5. An Anthem for Future Transformation by sehlat · · Score: 2

    To the tune of "Horst Wessel"

    Uber and Lyft uber alles!

  6. No Parking Forever by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There will be no need to legislate against provately-owned cars, autonomous or otherwise.

    As self-driving fleets proliferate, there will be irresistible temptation on the part of urban developers to cut back on parking spaces at businesses, which will be needed only for individually owned cars; instead of a sea of parking spaces for all customers at a movie theater, the business will expand into its parking area, leaving only one row of "VIP spaces" that the diminishing number of car owners will have to pay for. As mass car culture fades, owning your own autonomous car will be like owning your own plane, a niche market for the well off. As hoi polloi buzz around in autonomous fleet cars that park only in industrial-zone warehouses when out of service, the remaining individual owners will pay for parking spaces as though they were airport tiedowns or marina slips.

    1. Re: No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      As long as they teach me how to use the seashells

    2. Re:No Parking Forever by iamhassi · · Score: 2

      If owners of self driving fleets want to pass laws that stop people from operating their own vehicles then people will not support self driving fleets.

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    3. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see a number of factors that will tend towards autonomous, shared/fleet cars vs private ownership, once there's a "critical mass". First, economics: private cars are 5-10% utilized, while shared fleet cars are 50% utilized, so the cost of the car per ride is much lower. Second: parking. Cities allocate 40% of space to cars: parking, roads, etc. If cars don't need to be parked at homes, businesses, etc., and are much more efficient at navigating roads (AV's are better coordinated, so they can have far more throughput on the same road), which means that cities can get back a huge amount of space that can be used for parks, residences, and businesses, which cities will be eager to do, particularly in "downtown" areas. Third, insurance rates should be drastically lower for AVs. Most predictions are that AVs should have 90% fewer collisions, meaning that people riding in AVs will pay 1/10th the insurance rates, and have 1/10th the chance of being in an accident. Compounding that, people who drive manually not only put themselves and their passengers in more danger, but they put everyone around them at more risk as well, so at some point if 90% of riders are in AVs, in a few decades, there could be pressure on the remaining manual drivers to stop causing so many collisions.

    4. Re:No Parking Forever by haruchai · · Score: 2

      If owners of self driving fleets want to pass laws that stop people from operating their own vehicles then people will not support self driving fleets.

      People may not have a choice.
      I've been predicting for years that once self-driving cars are good enough, it'll quickly become much harder to earn a driver's license and much easier to have one revoked

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    5. Re:No Parking Forever by laird · · Score: 1

      I can see a number of factors that will tend towards autonomous, shared/fleet cars vs private ownership, once there's a "critical mass". First, economics: private cars are 5-10% utilized, while shared fleet cars are 50% utilized, so the cost of the car per ride is much lower, so many people will use shared rides instead of buying cars to save money. Second: parking. Cities allocate 40% of space to cars: parking, roads, etc. If cars don't need to be parked at homes, businesses, etc., and are much more efficient at navigating roads (AV's are better coordinated, so they can have far more throughput on the same road), which means that cities can get back a huge amount of space that can be used for parks, residences, and businesses, which cities will be eager to do, particularly in "downtown" areas. Third, insurance rates should be drastically lower for AVs. Most predictions are that AVs should have 90% fewer collisions than typical current cars, meaning that people riding in AVs will pay 1/10th the insurance rates, and have 1/10th the chance of being in an accident. Compounding that, people who drive manually not only put themselves and their passengers in more danger, but they put everyone around them at more risk as well, so at some point if 90% of riders are in AVs, in a few decades, there could be pressure on the remaining manual drivers to stop causing so many collisions.

    6. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A. Don't underestimate the inertia of existing parking spots. It would take a long long time for planners to have the opportunity to go through all the existing parking spots.

      B. And for what? The same computing revolution that produces AVs reduces the need for space and retail in general. People are shopping online. Even for existing businesses, more space means more property tax, is that worth it? I suspect that planners won't have enough commercial interest to justify expansion. So the only thing left is residential - which takes a long long time to have all the infrastructure built.

      C. If by that time a constituency for privately-owned AV cars emerges (and why wouldn't it, assuming these are not banned?), planners will face too much political opposition to reduce parking - which leads us back to square 1.

    7. Re:No Parking Forever by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Complete and utter nonsense. My car is an extension of my home, only it is portable. Same for most other drivers. I keep things in my car that I need (for work mostly). A family with kids keeps crap in their cars that are necessary for them, for various extracurricular activities, for entertainment, whatever. As cars become better at avoiding obstacles and preventing crashes there will be more people on the roads driving them, not fewer and people want to own stuff, that is why they want to buy houses rather than renting (mostly). Not everybody can afford it but that is a different matter.

      In short this is crap, Lyft and Uber will get nowhere with this fast.

    8. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      remaining individual owners will pay for parking spaces as though they were airport tiedowns or marina slips.

      It is already like this in the cities. If you have a slot at your apartment complex owned parking space, you do pay for it monthly.

    9. Re:No Parking Forever by iggymanz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      why didn't that happen decades ago with taxis? what's the difference?

    10. Re:No Parking Forever by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Owners of cars that are not part of an approved fleet will be able to drive into the city.
      Once the persons car enters a city area a new city tax is calculated.
      The freedom to drive exists but very few will be able to afford that per mile luxury tax in the city.
      A congestion tax, road upkeep tax, city pollution tax, a parking tax.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    11. Re:No Parking Forever by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      Why would I need a parking spot at work if the car can drive back to my house and come back to pick me up on time?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    12. Re:No Parking Forever by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If the person inside needs a drivers license, then the car isn't self driving.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    13. Re:No Parking Forever by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 0

      Why would I need a parking spot at work if the car can drive back to my house and come back to pick me up on time?

      Because having personally owned autonomous cars making two round trips a day to bring one person to work and pick up at quitting time is even more wasteful and congestion-contributing than the present-day system. Either ride in a fleet car that spends the day picking up other passengers or be one of the high rollers who rents a "yacht slip" at the office.

    14. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're forgetting a critical point: AV cars can be self-owned too. There are plenty of companies with interest in selling privately owned AV cars - indeed, that's at the moment the majority of AV cars.

      Economics: If drivers can afford the current cars, they are likely to be able to afford the cheaper AV cars.

      Parking: If the self-owned AV car parks by itself, how much will people care? And quite a lot of existing parking spots aren't likely to be removed.

      So the real question is whether people will still buy AV cars - or will they move to shared AV services? The latter may or may not be cheaper - but the former will always be more available and more customizable.

      The fact that Uber and Lyft have to invoke the heavy hand of the Law, suggests that they foresee people keeping privately owned cars - as long as there's a choice.

    15. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a reasonable argument - I'd go further and argue that even shared AV cars will increase congestion because the increase in demand will outstrip any savings - but that an outcome is suboptimal doesn't mean it won't happen. Plenty of companies have an interest in selling cars, and plenty of people are used and willing to own their cars.

      (Not the AC you were responding to)

    16. Re: No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure your tard-spawn will be immune to this population control, of course.

    17. Re:No Parking Forever by djinn6 · · Score: 2

      The fleet car may be available all day, but the majority of people need the cars during rush hour. Are you going to have enough cars in the fleet for everyone at once? If you did, then there will be as many cars on the road as there is now. If you didn't, then some people won't be able to get to work.

      Self-driving taxis just aren't going to solve the congestion problem. At best it's at the same level as carpooling. The real solutions are to replace the cars with buses, trains, telecommuting or better zoning laws.

    18. Re:No Parking Forever by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      Not really. I'd find it very inconvenient to live in the suburbs without a car. But I certainly didn't own a car when I lived in Tokyo and my daughter, who lives in New York City doesn't own a car and likes in that way. I think the big problem is parking. Parking in the high density areas of cities tends to be insanely expensive and is ongoing aggravation. Worse aggravation than lugging groceries on public transportation. Who needs ongoing aggravation? And when you do take the car out, where are you going to park it?

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    19. Re:No Parking Forever by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      The argument that "it will be so popular that customers will overload the system" can apply to ANY technology. It is not an argument against autonomous fleet cars.

    20. Re:No Parking Forever by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      The savings for commuters will come when fleet cars and mass transit are treated as one system. Whenever you rent a fleet car ride, the app you use will let you know if there is a cost savings for Ubering to a transit station, riding with others and then getting another fleet ride to your destination. For a one-off shopping trip to the big city you're not going to bother with such complexity, but for your daily commute you will think differently. And in the log run, the metadata flowing from such a system will assure that public transit goes where the riders actually want to travel.

    21. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there will be irresistible temptation on the part of urban developers to cut back on parking spaces at businesses

      Already a thing in my city. Businesses with no parking. Condos and apartments without enough spaces for the residents. And then the parking Jews stepped in and built garages in the community. You can park for many dollars per hour while visiting a business. Or lease a space to keep your personal car near your residence.

    22. Re:No Parking Forever by Glarimore · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When I request an Uber, it's usually at my door in less than five minutes and I can see it's progress. Formerly, when requesting a cab, it could take up to thirty minutes to arrive, if it bothered to show up at all -- and it cost twice as much.

    23. Re: No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's weird because in a way I almost see this being a slightly good thing in America to combat the negatives of suburban sprawl although it doesn't exactly fix the underlying issues and may allow sprawl to continue when it should be curtailed with better and more efficient city planning. The scariest thing about this is its starting to look more and more like a dystopian economy is on the way. As competition in the workforce raises and wages are driven down, the corporations are working on ways for us to live as close to the edge of poverty as is physically possible, paycheck to paycheck. When I get laid off from my warehouse job either I get two jobs, one as a contracted uber driver, one as a contracted Amazon delivery driver, upsetting two formerly decent jobs. Or I could look for companies that have sysadmin jobs and offer to do someone eleses job for 10.00/hr. Or I could learn a trade like air conditioning repair and join the thousands of other newly unemployed people in my city also being told to get into jobs with good job security that cant be automated. When walmart, mcdonalds, ups, fedex, etc. Shed all their workers I don't see the economy being sustainable. If automation really was inevitable it's kind of humorous it's coming at a time when buisness is absolutely booming and wealth inequality is at the worst it's been in modern history. If people actually do end up taking others advice it will be hilarious to see him many colleges start offering courses on automated machinery and drone repair. I'm sure the market will absorb all the newly trained maintenance workers and millions of it admins. At the very least ther will be that least two people on every block offering to mow your lawn for $5, healthy competition!

    24. Re: No Parking Forever by jecowa · · Score: 1

      I think not owning a car will catch on a lot faster in dense urban areas than more rural areas. It will probably be faster to get vehicle in dense areas. People in denser areas are probably more likely to feel that owning a car is a burden and would find a quick, cheap, driverless taxi more freeing. In rural areas where there's already plenty of parking and everyone is spread out and the taxi fleet is more spread out, the service will probably be slower and less desireable.

      --
      my opportunity to freely express myself with the potential persecution and hangings and such
    25. Re:No Parking Forever by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      I live in SF now and I don't have a car, but when self-driving cars are available I'll want one, not for driving around SF but for driving out to areas where public transit is scarce, like Napa or Yosemite (or LA). Under Uber/Lyft's proposal, I wouldn't be allowed to own such a car because I live in the city. As a Lyft customer, this pisses me off to no end.

      Frankly, I don't see why someone living in Fremont should be allowed to own a car if I can't.

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    26. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Self-driving cars have the potential to be way cheaper than taxis (or Uber/Lyft with human drivers) because so much of the cost of a car is the driver. There's also the general trend of younger people in urban areas in the US becoming more okay with not owning a car.

    27. Re:No Parking Forever by toddestan · · Score: 1

      That may be true, but if it's cheaper to have your car drive two full commutes every day [or it's the only legal option], people are going to do it.

    28. Re:No Parking Forever by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      Self-driving cars, using an app for quick/easy ride requests, decreased regulations, GPS directions instead of AAA maps, better payment system. You realize that Uber is a lot more popular than taxis ever were, right?

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    29. Re: No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you support them

    30. Re:No Parking Forever by udachny · · Score: 0

      more nonsense. Parking is actually less of a problem for self driving vehicles. A self driving car can drop you off somewhere and then drive to an available parking zone anywhere else and come back to pick you up. As to lugging groceries on public transportation.... you must not buy much stuff at all. Have you *seen* people buying stuff at all? To say that you can move that on public transport is to make a fool of yourself. You are going to take tens of kilograms of grocery filled bags with you on a bus (or on a number of buses as you are trying to get back to your place)? Really? Nobody I know would do that.

    31. Re: No Parking Forever by houghi · · Score: 1

      The only reason people buy instead of rent is money. Buying a house is cheaper in the long term most of the times. With a car that might not be the case.

      I do car sharing and pay around 100Eur per month for all costs. Owning a car would easily raise that to around 300Eur. That includes devaluation of the car, repairs as well as renting for 2 weeks during summer holidays.

      The reason it is cheaper and this wiser to remt us that I pay for my own cars devaluation when I do not use it.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    32. Re: No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ten kilograms I fit easily in my backpack...

    33. Re:No Parking Forever by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Self-driving fleets can offer you a better choice of automotive options than any single car you have to buy and maintain. Every day you can summon commuter podcar rides to take you to and from work. But for that one Wednesday a month when you have to bring home a load of supermarket shopping, you check the 'midsize car' option to bring you home. If you just came out of Home Depot with three sheets of plywood and six sacks of fertilizer, you check the 'pickup truck' option.

    34. Re:No Parking Forever by coofercat · · Score: 1

      Actually, there's some reason to think that even if you replaced every vehicle on the road today with a self-driving one that you would actually have less congestion. I doubt it would be 'problem solved', but you could expect less time sat stationary than you do now.

      One example is things like the school drop off - I do it, and I have to leave my car parked somewhere for about 15 minutes while I walk the kids over the road to the school. If my car was self-driving, it could just drop us off, and keep moving - making that parking space free for traffic to actually drive on (so greater road capacity).

      On motorways and other busy roads, we could expect less queues because if one developed, everyone coming up to it (potentially several miles away) would slow down to reduce the 'input load' to the congested area. People who have alternative routes could take them, knowing what the additional wait time would be to use the congested route.

      Now, back to the article... I'd quite like to have no car - but please god, don't let the only haling service in town be uber. If it is, I'll just buy a car, thanks ;-)

    35. Re:No Parking Forever by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      Insightful comment, there is no difference. Also, it has happened in some dense urban areas. Car ownership will drop when alternatives are more appealing.

      We already know converting transportation into a government-granted monopoly is a terrible idea. The trend for a long time has been to reverse awful decisions like that. Stop supporting Uber and Lyft.

    36. Re: No Parking Forever by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 2

      Ha! He doesn't know how to use the three seashells. I could see how that could be confusing.

    37. Re:No Parking Forever by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

      Nah. Parking spaces will just be monetized like every damn thing related to air travel these days is. You pay for privilege. You'll be paying more for more convenient parking spaces.

    38. Re:No Parking Forever by udachny · · Score: 0

      that's why people buy large SUVs so that they can do all that and not be limited in some weird way.

    39. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is Taxis have two huge overheads. Drivers and maintenance.

        Newer Hybrid taxis have very low maintenance costs, but it's not a magnitude of difference. There are still the same type of engine problems, but they're just much less likely. Maintenance costs will drop drastically with EV taxis. With solid state batteries in the next 5 to 10 years the charging time will hopefully go away, but that's more of a nuisance if you plan to use the same car all day and can't switch.

      The second is Taxis now need a driver. Uber gets around these by avoiding labor laws and basically saying FU to reasonable employment standards, scheduling, and fairness all around. But, you still can't get people to wake up instantly for unpredictable demands without a major money incentive. But with driver-less cars they can all be tucked away in an automated parking garage and come out in streams on demand. Drivers need retirement, healthcare, rest, eat, etc. Machines don't.

    40. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One example is things like the school drop off - I do it, and I have to leave my car parked somewhere for about 15 minutes while I walk the kids over the road to the school. If my car was self-driving, it could just drop us off, and keep moving - making that parking space free for traffic to actually drive on (so greater road capacity).

      Back in my day, we had self-walking kids. And parking at all was purely optional. Tuck and roll little Susie, tuck and roll. I guess they don't make 'em like they used to.

    41. Re: No Parking Forever by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Well obviously, but it's going to happen unless prices for parking come way down. Basically parking an automated car will need to be cheaper than the gas for the two extra trips, otherwise people will just drive the car home every day.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    42. Re: No Parking Forever by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Schools are made more central and further away from kids houses these days. Also, in my parent's generation, only one spouse had to work so it was easier to make the kids school schedule fit your schedule.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    43. Re:No Parking Forever by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I keep things in my car that I need (for work mostly). A family with kids keeps crap in their cars that are necessary for them

      There are these things. Bags, I think that's the name.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    44. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      haruchai's assumption is that the rise of self-driving cars will make it more difficult to obtain and keep a driver's license in order to use a person-driven car. So using a person-driven car will become a more difficult option, leading to dependence on self-driving cars for a larger group of people, i.e. you may not have a choice.

    45. Re: No Parking Forever by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      No, even the diehard automated car owners are going to use fleet rides for commuting. Their owned vehicle will be the tricked-out road trip machine.

    46. Re: No Parking Forever by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Fleet cars will have many disadvantages. Either you are going to have to wait for a ride during rush hour, or as part of your fare you will have to subsidize hundreds of cars sitting around idle in non-rush hour time. It won't be much different than a taxi today. Personal ownership will still be just as desirable, perhaps more so if you have the flexibility to drive your car home for parking.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    47. Re:No Parking Forever by eepok · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, neither the numbers nor human behavior pan out as such. If everyone were to have affordable access to drivesless vehicles, there would be even more congestion on the road, not less. People would send their cars around for the most mundane of exercises like picking up a sweater they forgot at a friends house or down to the corner store when they SHOULD have walked.

      Moreover, if there's no parking for these vehicles, they will have to idle in circulation. Circulating vehicles ARE congestion and with increased numbers on the road doing NOTHING, they would be consuming fuel (regardless of the fuel source) and generating tire noise (the loudest noise modern automobiles make at speed).

      If you want this reduced parking, reduced congestion fantasy to happen (I sure do!), then do what has proven to work time and time again-- walk, bike, take a bus or train, or share a drive you would normally take alone with someone else.

    48. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was not arguing against the technology. Only saying that a good result needs more than a technological fix - it needs the proper laws and culture. The "everything will just sort itself out once the technology is online" attitude of your original post can lead to suboptimal outcomes.

    49. Re:No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Every time I see some idiot comment about how no one will need cars, I wonder how someone could be so out of touch with the majority of car owners. On very very few occasions would I opt for some kind of one use car service over using my own personal vehicle. I also have two kids of different ages that need different car seats. How much fun would it be to order an automated car with the correct number of child seats in the correct configuration? This is already extremely hit or (mostly) miss with Uber and Lyft today leading to time wasted while the driver sets up the seat and you adjust the harness, etc. Plus, like roman_mir mentioned, my kids have their crap in the car already and the last thing I need to haul around is another bag of shit to keep them entertained.

    50. Re:No Parking Forever by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      I don't think that automated fleet rides will ever get so cheap that people would send a car to pick up a forgotten sweater. Then again, suppose the tech is so good that this actually happens. Special-purpose drones will handle all kinds of deliveries as Bezos envisions, and life will get even better. Given such a world, how much walking you want to do is YOUR business. Instead of walking for miles to hunt for subsistence and then carry large burdens back home, today we hike trails and run in parks for enjoyment. It will be as it always was.

      Fleet automatons will not have to "circulate" waiting for passengers. After every ride, cars will be dispatched to the optimally closest next job. As overall demand fluctuates with time of day, excess vehicles will be shunted into warehouse storage until demand picks up. A certain fraction of vehicles each day will need to report for maintenance and repair, but vehicles reporting to storage will be packed densely in an industrial-district warehouse, because nobody is getting in or out of them, and undoubtedly on many levels.

    51. Re: No Parking Forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in my day it was (for each school i went to): schoolbus, walk, walk/cycle, bus, walk+bus, car (mum), cycle, hitchhike/cycle (university)... Only the private school required a car to get to.

    52. Re:No Parking Forever by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      uber is a taxi

      any taxi company can do all those things you list and some already do

      you're confused.

    53. Re:No Parking Forever by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      so some taxi companies (using meaning of ride for hire) are slower than others, doesn't invalidate my point about self-driving cars not causing anything that hasn't already occurred.

  7. Then they can pay for the streets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Then Uber, Lyft and the other signatories can pay for the streets and their upkeep (paving, plowing, etc.). If tax payers are expected to continue to pay for streets then we damn well will use our driverless cars on them.

    1. Re:Then they can pay for the streets by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Then Uber, Lyft and the other signatories can pay for the streets and their upkeep (paving, plowing, etc.). If tax payers are expected to continue to pay for streets then we damn well will use our driverless cars on them.

      I'm with you but that's a fight that won't be easy to win. Buses & trucks do most of the damage to paved roads but don't pay anywhere near their fair share for upkeep. Some political pretext will be found to keep you paying for roads while not being able to drive on them except in a JohnnyCab.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  8. The fact is... by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 0

    ... that we will not realize the full benefit of self-driving cars unless they are networked to communicate with each other and with the regional traffic control infrastructure. This is not a good area for individual empowerment. Rogue vehicles that don't play by the rules -- whatever those rules turn out to be -- will ruin it for everybody else.

    In most sane societies, it would be the role of the government to regulate many aspects of automated vehicle development and deployment, from communication and navigation protocols to congestion avoidance to the standardized swappable battery packs that (should) power those vehicles. But we've collectively decided that government should be run by the weakest and dumbest among us. That leaves corporations to supply the necessary leadership.

    So, don't blame Uber and Lyft for taking a self-interested authoritarian stance. Blame the voters who put Bible-thumping idiots in charge of the interests that we all share.

    1. Re: The fact is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing that the fact that the US has a basic fundamental attitude: "Let me do what I want to do."

      This isn't inherently good nor bad. It is how things here are, though. People like autonomy to varying degrees. And in large part, driving is the most highly regarded form of freedom. I can drive from Detroit to NYC or LA if I please. I can feel the engine purr through the car, and use freeway driving as a form of zen.

      Uber/Lyft or 100% gov't owned cars remove that freedom, and kills all of the emotions and thoughts that go along with it. Sure, if one authoritarian entity owned and controlled it, efficiency may be very high, but lest we forget:

      Fuck authoritarianism. I stand for myself if nothing else.

    2. Re: The fact is... by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      Yet android users freely give google all of their text, emails, contacts, photos, videos, and location at all times. Apple isn't much better, telling users the apps they paid for and have been using for years will no longer work on iOS 11 because they have not been updated to work with the new os.

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    3. Re: The fact is... by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      And the truth is, I agree with your point of view entirely. I like driving as much as anybody. If I listed the cars I've owned it would sound like a pointless exercise in online douchebraggery.

      But our "hobby" -- and make no mistake, that's what it is -- gets about 30,000 people killed every year in the US alone. There will be immense social and political pressure to fix this as soon as technology allows. And as usual, we Americans will do the right thing only after trying everything else first.

    4. Re:The fact is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... that we will not realize the full benefit of self-driving cars unless they are networked to communicate with each other and with the regional traffic control infrastructure. This is not a good area for individual empowerment. Rogue vehicles that don't play by the rules -- whatever those rules turn out to be -- will ruin it for everybody else.

      In most sane societies, it would be the role of the government to regulate many aspects of automated vehicle development and deployment, from communication and navigation protocols to congestion avoidance to the standardized swappable battery packs that (should) power those vehicles. But we've collectively decided that government should be run by the weakest and dumbest among us. That leaves corporations to supply the necessary leadership.

      So, don't blame Uber and Lyft for taking a self-interested authoritarian stance. Blame the voters who put Bible-thumping idiots in charge of the interests that we all share.

      There is nothing that prevents individual owners from using standardized equipment, we do it all the time. Your car today meets many standards for safety. This is more a case of big brother saying centralized approach is the only way, more like single payer health care than anything. I say develop the standards and let the consumers have choice of ownership.

    5. Re:The fact is... by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      *This is more a case of big brother saying centralized approach is the only way, more like single payer health care than anything.*

      I'm very confused. Are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing?

    6. Re: The fact is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Might right? Ofcourse, if most people car-killed are nibbers, narco-MEX and progressives. Cull-the-herd ... so it's heard.

  9. Psychopaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It always amazes me that when you think this kind of psychopathic filth have reached the bottom of the ignominy pit, they still manage to dig themselves a few inches deeper.

    Psychopaths really are the plague, the cancer of humanity. Whatever small advantage their disfunctional brains may hypothetically bring to our species, it can't possibly even remotely make up for the insane, obcene amount of pain, suffering and bloodshed they have caused throughout history.

    Hunt them down. Kill them all. Wipe their genetic filth from the face of the earth.

    1. Re:Psychopaths by mschuyler · · Score: 1

      You sound like Michael Moore talking about himself.

      --
      How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
    2. Re:Psychopaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound anti semitic...

    3. Re: Psychopaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But...but... capitalism is good, the wealthy overlords say so 24/7 on talk radio.

  10. This is an outrage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Next thing you know, they'll be telling me I can't ride my unicorn in the public park.

  11. Only few will remain....car manufacturers by emanuele_fanton · · Score: 0

    Car manufactures. Only them will be responsible for theirs autonomous cars! I only need to go from point A to B, I don't need a piece of craps. I will pay for the service and nothing more, just think of taxi without taxi driver. I need a car about 1 hour per day, the time left in the day it's only rusting in my yard.

  12. It won't go over well. by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I won't lie, if laws like they suggest ever got passed then I would straight up burn down the local Uber/Lyft/Assholes Inc. hub and destroy all the cars there. Then I would post a video of it burning and encourage others to do the same. Tyranny must be opposed.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:It won't go over well. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you wouldn't.

    2. Re:It won't go over well. by apoc.famine · · Score: 3, Funny

      Shhhhh... He's being internet tough. It's how he rights the wrongs he perceives in the world.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    3. Re:It won't go over well. by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's fine if you want to write me off as an "internet tough guy" but you are incorrect because I actually mean what I say. I do not endorse violence toward those who have opposing ideologies but I do endorse sabotaging entities (people/corps/govs) that have moved to purely malevolent behavior and when the legal avenues for change have been exhausted. Fighting for the common good is something all people should do.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    4. Re:It won't go over well. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      Anything you say, internet tough guy. Burning down buildings is not fighting fascism, it IS fascism.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    5. Re:It won't go over well. by fafalone · · Score: 1

      Oh please. If you meant what you said there's a vast array of ongoing injustice and tyranny that you'd already be out burning down. Banning all cars besides Uber from a city center ranks about 500,000th on the list of oppressive injustice, if it ever comes to being. Go do something about the 499,999 that exist right now.

    6. Re:It won't go over well. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if you're burning down a concentration camp?

    7. Re:It won't go over well. by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      ...I would straight up burn down the local Uber/Lyft/Assholes Inc. hub and destroy all the cars there. Then I would post a video of it burning and encourage others to do the same. Tyranny must be opposed.

      Spotted the antifa, otherwise known as an assistant professor with tats.

    8. Re:It won't go over well. by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      there's a vast array of ongoing injustice and tyranny that you'd already be out burning down.

      Do tell me of the tyranny that lacks legal recourse and isn't being sabotaged already. Life is full of ongoing injustice but that's very different than tyranny.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    9. Re:It won't go over well. by fafalone · · Score: 1

      Well let's start with the big ones right here in the US. Civil asset forfeiture, the drug war, warrantless mass surveillance... there's a good start for you. There's no legal recourse since the courts have ok'd it despite being clearly unconstitutional and tyrannical. The telecoms' regulatory capture just lost us net neutrality, that's pretty tyrannical too.
      If all that isn't tyranny to you but banning private vehicles from cities is, you've got a really warped view of tyranny and shouldn't be talking like you're not part of the problem yourself.

    10. Re:It won't go over well. by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 0

      The problem with your examples is that they failed the first qualification of being by entities of purely malevolent behavior. US government institutions aren't perfect but they are far from purely malevolent behavior. No doubt there is some tyranny happening (and it is being opposed) but it can be rectified because their intent is to serve the public (even though they may be fucking it up). However, for-profit corporations are entirely self-serving with no intent but to extract money from targets.

      Nuance is required before enacting extreme measures because the world is rarely black and white.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    11. Re:It won't go over well. by MooseTick · · Score: 1

      What if you're burning down a band camp?

      One time at band camp I....

    12. Re:It won't go over well. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More likely you are someone working for an intelligence agency trolling for supporters of you cause, which can then be trolled and monitored further for "the sting".

  13. Re:A gay Anthem for Future Transformation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're a retard, you know that?

  14. Individuals unlikely to ever own self driving cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before you can be banned from using your own self driving car you have to own one, and I think it's very unlikely someone would ever want to sell one to you.

    With fully autonomous vehicles, manufacturers will be liable for accidents caused by the self driving cars, so it's in their best interest to keep a tight control on the vehicle maintenance. They probably won't risk trusting the end user with regular checks and fixes. Even something as simple as dirt covering a camera lens could cause an accident. So naturally they would prefer to sell the vehicles to ride sharing companies that are able to professionally manage a fleet, to partner with such a company, or to manage their own fleet themselves.

  15. One day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uber and Lyft will adopt SaaS into their new subscription based model; AaaS - Automobile as a Service..
    A brave new world awaits!

  16. Freedoms by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    So only approved people can get to request approved "transport" pod in the city at set times?
    A mil, government or big brand does not like you and no city car for you.
    No car to or from that protest.
    The internet politics of the car brand and the user's web history requesting the car is too far apart? No car app in the city for that person.
    A few brands will make a nation wide list of who they will drive into a city for shopping, medical, work, fun.
    The self driving car looks over every profile and finds out the next request is from a city worker, city contractor, member of the press? Are they doing an investigation on the brand? The brand considered them a ToS risk. No self driving car for them.

    Car ownership and been able to drive yourself, a taxi is going to be looked back on as true freedom.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:Freedoms by geek · · Score: 1

      Technically, driving on public roads is considered a privilege. States/cities can do as they like. Private roads is another matter.

    2. Re:Freedoms by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      A "privilege" that anyone who could afford a car, pass a test could enjoy.
      No having an app consider if a person was going to be allowed by app policy to request a car to drive them into a city.
      That a city would only allow a few set self driving brands with their own user ToS to enter the city limits.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:Freedoms by geek · · Score: 1

      A "privilege" that anyone who could afford a car, pass a test could enjoy. .

      And? Its still a fucking privilege you whiny little bitch

  17. Neo-feudalism by nickmalthus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a clear glimpse into the machinations of the corporatocracy wishing to impose their totalitarian vision of the future.

    In this "gig economy" foisted on us with all of it's service jobs, private toll roads, apartments, cloud services, and soon to be automated car fleets the every day person will legally own very little. Instead immortal corporations will try to take ownership of most property and the rest of us will live as serfs subjugated to the shifting legal terms of service by said corporations.

    Our whole legal systems is built around property rights and only the affairs of property holders seems to matter. Any consideration of the ordinary person is considered to be "cumbersome regulations" that should be eliminated.

    --
    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
    1. Re:Neo-feudalism by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      This is a clear glimpse into the machinations of the corporatocracy wishing to impose their totalitarian vision of the future.

      Give me a break. It isn't the "corporatocracy" that came up with idea of packing everybody into apartment blocks and getting rid of private cars, all in the name of enviro-benefits, planning, fairness, etc. It's just that previously they were envisioning buses.

      This is the urban planner's wet dream. That Uber supports it because it benefits them is a minor detail.

  18. Hmm ... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    ... in line with broader policy trends to reduce the use of personal cars ...

    Said the two companies that hire people to use their personal cars.

    ... and only companies operating fleets of them [self-driving cars] should be able to use them in dense urban areas.

    Ya, fleets, like taxi-cab companies - oops.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  19. Re:good for liability & saves owners from face by Dayze!Confused · · Score: 1

    What I see being the future of transportation would be to have shared vehicle fleets that act similar to public transit in that they will pick up other people along the way instead of a bunch of single occupancy self driving vehicles. How this might work is you hail one with an app, and get in. Somewhere down the road a message pops up on the console asking if you would like to pick up other passengers, or pay a fee to continue by yourself. Perhaps a rating system for other passengers so you could make a decision based on what rating they have. Sort of Black Mirrorish, but might be interesting.

    What I don't look forward to is the inevitable advertising that will be put into these.

    I've been car free for over a year, and the only thing I sometimes miss is using the car as a portable storage unit. Without a car that will be the same one when you get done shopping you have to carry everything you take, and buy, with you.

    --
    "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
  20. That's the whole point of self driving cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And EV s as well. It is to deprive the populace of a car ownership. Welcome to Soviet Union States of the World.

  21. Re:Individuals unlikely to ever own self driving c by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    They'll probably just disable self-driving capability if maintenance is not regularly performed by a dealer. Service departments have massive profit margins.
    If dirt on a lens can cripple the system and it can't be detected, I doubt it would pass whatever industry standards get adopted by regulations.

  22. It's a risk to their business model by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    If you have a self-driving car, you don't need Uber or Lyft.
    You have your own car drive itself and come and pick you up. It can dive off to a cheap parking garage too, so you don't have to pay inner city parking rates.

    A family wouldn't need as many cars either, so more expensive self-driving cars become more affordable.

  23. Good Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hate self-driving cars. Anything to reduce their usage is a good idea.

  24. Social Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gizmodo

    No thanks.

  25. Color me shocked, I say! by scdeimos · · Score: 1

    As if a business would do anything to lock out its potential customers from their own rights so as increase their own profits.

    Eventually Lyft/Uber vehicles are going to be used in the commission of crimes (burglaries, robberies, terrorism, etc.). The powers that be should say, "Sure, since you're claiming to be responsible let's see you acting responsibility as well and allow us to put your CEO and board members on trial with these criminals as accomplices and co-conspirators!"

    Of course it won't happen, but I can dream can't I?

    1. Re:Color me shocked, I say! by gDLL · · Score: 0

      I totally know what you mean, they should also put the bastards that made the shoes of the criminals on trial !oneone I really believe there would be far less crime if they had to go barefoot. :)

  26. What about the jaywalking problem? by whoever57 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Cities that go 100% autonomous will have to solve the jaywalking problem.

    If all the vehicles on the road are self-driving, then, from a safety perspective, there is nothing to stop a pedestrian crossing when and where they want, in the knowledge that the autonomous vehicles will stop for them. This will cause chaos with the flow of traffic.

    Net result: somehow jaywalking must be eliminated.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:What about the jaywalking problem? by Duds · · Score: 1

      More disturbingly....

      I live near London, with one of the bigger underground railway systems in the world. I'd say once a week someone kills themselves by throwing themselves in front of an underground train.

      They don't seem to deliberately do it with cars so much, I wonder if that would change.

    2. Re:What about the jaywalking problem? by mccalli · · Score: 1

      Not in London it wouldn't. The cars don't move anywhere near fast enough...

    3. Re:What about the jaywalking problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If these are all automated cars then they all have cameras. yes, getting a private car feed directly to cops automatically when an illegal event is detected would be a nightmare. However, a company like Uber has no problem with doing away with all privacy expectations.

    4. Re:What about the jaywalking problem? by tsstahl · · Score: 1

      Good point. People must be cuffed to a segway type device to eliminate walking.

    5. Re:What about the jaywalking problem? by Botched · · Score: 1

      Car cameras that snap photo's of jaywalkers.

    6. Re:What about the jaywalking problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Face detection and fines.
      The in car cameras will report to the police and the fine will go to your house. Alternatively, it will be credited in your wechat/alipay account (or the American version of it if the US "catches up"). Also, you lose social credit.

  27. First they replaced the taxi cartels by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Now they are the taxi cartels. Brilliant.

    1. Re:First they replaced the taxi cartels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The king is dead, long live the king

  28. Standing agaist safer cars... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    prove they support us Democrats. We hate those self-driving cars that are safer.

    1. Re: Standing agaist safer cars... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And SF has basically outlawed them which proves they love us.

  29. It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas ... by thomst · · Score: 4, Informative

    For the past 30 or more years, there's been a "progressivist" initiative in urban planning to significantly reduce the number of private motor vehicles on the road in densified urban areas (for which read "downtown" - to distinguish it from "inner urban" areas, for which read "slums"). It - along with housing densification itself - is one of the core goals of New Urbanism.

    New Urbanism, in turn, is dedicated to reducing urban sprawl (for which read "suburbs"), in part by mandating high-density, multi-family housing, mixed-use planning (for which read "medium- and high-rises with residential units on top and retail at street level"). It regards with disdain that portion of the population that does not care for apartment living and mass transit as a lifestyle, and seeks to enforce its vision by changing planning law and packing planning commissions, not just in big cities, but in small and medium ones, as well.

    A prime example of a city whose planning process is now wholly based on New Urbanist principles is San Francisco, which has systematically constrained parking by consistently approving major new construction only on condition that it be designed with new parking that's deliberately inadequate for the expected demand. (The idea being to make finding a parking place so difficult that it will basically force commuters to take public transit, rather than drive.) Ask any San Francisco resident or commuter (other than a fanatic bike geek) how that has worked out.

    Uber and Lyft are merely taking advantage of the New Urbanist movement to try to mandate that cities run by progressives enact traffic-reduction policies that will result in their companies making the maximum possible profit from the hapless residents of and commuters to these cities.

    I only hope that the New Urbanist masterminds stab them in the back by mandating fleets of city-owned self-driving cars to serve their residents and visitors ...

    --
    Check out my novel.
  30. manufacturers will win by hoolaparara · · Score: 1

    I still don't see why car makers would sell large fleets to middle men to compete against private users. Surely in the end the car makers will run he autonomous fleets themselves.

    1. Re:manufacturers will win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      for the same reason there are car dealerships....its the law in most(all?) states.

  31. put them down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Any military historian will tell you this, about infra-hostile mercantilism; shoot dead the UBER/LYFT CXXs ... and a half-dozen major stock-holders. Then anti-citizen bullshit stops.

  32. I Have an Idea - Medallions by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    All self-driving cars in cities should be required to have an expensive medallion on them, and only a limited amount should be given out to qualified companies. To protect the consumer.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  33. actualize this by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 1

    actualize the promise of reductions in vehicles, parking, and congestion, ...

    If Alice's car and Bob's drives them to work, the cars park in their office parking lot, and waits for them to finish work.

    If an Uber car drives Alice to work, and then drives to Bob, and then drives Bob to work, then it's driving more miles per capita. One drive for Alice, one drive for Bob, and one drive between Alice's work and Bob's home.

    This might improve parking, but it will make traffic congestion worse, and increase fuel consumption.

    1. Re: actualize this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it means they both don't arrive at the same time, which is a problem for most factories where all workers start at a given hour.

    2. Re:actualize this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps it will encourage actual ride sharing, as Uber knows Dave lives near Bob, so Dave and Bob end up sharing 95% of the Uber ride, thus reducing congestion. And Alice can share a ride with Cathy.

      Presumably people will be able to pay more for exclusive use of the car, but during peak times where everybody is going to/from work, it will be a lot more expensive, so few people will do so.

  34. And so it begins... by evil_aaronm · · Score: 5, Funny

    My uncle has a country place, no one knows about.

    1. Re:And so it begins... by NoSpamPlease · · Score: 1

      Thank you, that was a nice trip down memory lane.

    2. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      April Wine kicks ass!

  35. Probably not in the States by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    but you could be right for Europe and I'm sure you're right for Asia. As for America, land is cheap around here. You might see this effect in the major cities (San Fransisco, New York, etc) but elsewhere there's no shortage of land.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  36. Monopoly by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    They seek duopoly on self-driving cars. The idea could look sane if it was a way to ensure all vehicles communicates with each others, and act with an determined behavior. But since there are still human-drove cars, that just looks like a duopoly on money stream.

  37. It's all about monetizing your rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Freedom to travel and move about freely is under assault by these assholes. If they had their way, you would go nowhere without paying them a tax. THAT is what this is really about.

  38. Even better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just ban all cars not Uber and Lyft. Don't they own the roads?

  39. Car Ownership by Luthair · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is an oft repeated statement that silicon valley press use when talking about the future of cars (probably repeating something they've heard from the automated driving / internet taxi services) - car ownership is inefficient as cars spend most of their time parked. While true on the surface, it overlooks a key factor - the majority of car usage happens at approximately the same time when people go to and return from work. This means any alternative to ownership needs to satisfy peak usage which returns back to most cars spending the majority of their time parked . The only solution to this is having peak users share the vehicles, in which case congratulations - you just invented the bus.

    1. Re:Car Ownership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the simple fact that my vehicle provides me with a substantial amount of mobile storage as well as the ability to deviate from the pre-planned route/destination at will, neither of which is a benefit of mass transit, brings us back to the original reason for me having a personal vehicle in the first place.

    2. Re:Car Ownership by tsstahl · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. And give him/her a mint, too.

    3. Re:Car Ownership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the same thing I hear constantly from the Buddy Holly glasses wearing hipsters living in the coastal hubs. No one needs a car, just have a service send an automated car to pick you up every day. Sure, it might smell like curry and banana-popcorn farts from the last people that used it, but why would anyone want to own a car? If you're an existentialist douche who thinks John Lenin was a prophet and no one should own possessions, then yeah I guess it makes sense because you wouldn't have any of your own personal stuff in the "rental". The maintenance and upkeep is too expensive. It would obviously cost more than the fee a company would charge you, because its not like they have to pay to maintain their vehicles or set their prices to account for such expenses and still make a profit.

    4. Re:Car Ownership by MooseTick · · Score: 1

      "congratulations - you just invented the bus"

      But buses generally have defined routes. If some algorithm figured out you and 3 other people in your neighborhood are going from there to a narrowly defined destination, then it could offer carpooling//bus service at a reduced rate and therefore possibly allow a 75% decrease in vehicles on the road. The rates could vary depending on if you wanted to ride alone or were ok with 2-3 fellow passengers. Even better if the system determined all this on the fly and you could mix it up somedays.

      Plus, for all you basement dwellers, this could be an opportunity to be in a car with a female that isn't your sister/mother!

    5. Re:Car Ownership by MooseTick · · Score: 1

      "my vehicle provides me with a substantial amount of mobile storage as well as the ability to deviate from the pre-planned route/destination at will"

      You could pay extra for having the car to yourself for those times you need extra space or to deviate. For me, that is maybe 5-10% of the time.

    6. Re:Car Ownership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have yet, and I've asked many, to find an Uber or Lyft driver who will let me jack off in their car- whether I pay extra or not.

  40. ok, i get it now by superwiz · · Score: 2

    So "self-driving cars" will be buses controlled remotely. The actual driving will not be completely autonomous. It will be subject to human intervention by a remote dispatcher. But the little bus cabins will be guided on the road by something other than a driver sitting behind a wheel. Well, I feel better about that than I do about a car driven by the same algorithms that can't get GPS navigation to be without error.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  41. Not the way to go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes cars should be able to act as a fleet, no it shouldn't be on a private network.
    Cars are using roads, which are a public utility, as such, any sort of car fleet communication should be owned and operated by the city and not some third party private entity that's only in this for profit.

  42. You're all bringing this on yourselves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have no one else to blame. Enjoy having corrupt, criminal corporations, encouraged by a corrupt, criminal government, take away what's left of your freedom, civil liberty, and privacy.

  43. Re:It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm flabbergasted by the idea that San Francisco's policy resembles any kind of "urbanist". San Francisco is practically the go-to example of an anti-urbanist city in the United States. There is practically no political support for dense housing or mass transit. There's plenty of people talking about it, but they clearly are completely lacking in political power.

  44. Good for them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why should corporations be unfairly harmed by consumer actions? The idiotic anti-capitalist rhetoric here is yet another example of how slashtards always take the liberal side of every issue. I have to wonder how much soros and clinton have paid to push this agenda here.

  45. build underpasses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    build underpasses and you also have robo cop bust the homeless who take a piss and get them off street as Peeing in public = Sex Offender

  46. Re:It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas . by kamapuaa · · Score: 2

    San Francisco actually mandates a pretty normal amount of parking. Different districts have different requirements, but generally one space to one apartment, or 1.5 spaces per house in a new housing development.

    Yes, parking is difficult in SF. It's a very small dense city with a lot of commuters from the suburbs. Land is very expensive and nobody wants to turn the land into an unprofitable parking garage instead of a highly profitable office building, so there will always be that tension of wanting to build as little parking as possible.

    New Urbanism isn't a top-down scheme imposed by some evil central committee, it's a guideline that springs from the bottom up because of the perceived advantages. It makes for pleasant cities that consume less energy and have shorter commute times. There is a need for New Urbanism because plenty of people live in fucking Brentwood and commute 2.5 hours to San Francisco. The model of "everybody lives in a ranch home and drives to work in San Francisco or San Jose" doesn't work when there's 10 million people.

    --
    Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
  47. "international non-governmental organizations" by magzteel · · Score: 1

    They lost me at "So say Uber and Lyft, as signatories to a new list of transportation goals developed by a group of international non-governmental organizations"

    Nobody voted for them and what they want is meaningless

  48. An alternative solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it's not safe for Uber/Lyft and non-Uber/Lyft vehicles to operate on these urban roads at the same time, then maybe Uber and Lyft should be forced to provide transportation services to all the residents of that urban area in exchange for letting Uber/Lyft use these roads.

  49. Re: It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    parking garages are profitable. they're their own little special interest in most large cities that is pretty untouchable, and the market is pretty impenetrable to new operators.
    That new office building? the building owner will..."choose"...one of the two or three commercial parking operators in town to run it for them. Very few run their own parking operation in the garages in their own buildings.

  50. America, the land of the free ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... cronies who will stop at nothing to take all your money.

    Stop using them and take the public transport. Show these companies some teeth.

  51. Taxi Anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And what exactly are the taxi companies doing about this? I suppose like Government Uber and Lyft don't like competition.

  52. Re: It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you build a house and sell it yourself get your return on investment immediately. If you build a parking garage, you either have to recoup the return over a period of time, with attendant opportunity cost, or find a buyer who will also seek to get a return over a period of time. Thus the market will prefer housing up to the point where returns on parking are realised quickly.

  53. Bullshit justification by mysidia · · Score: 1

    ensure that maintenance and software upgrades are managed by professionals..."

    The average person is going to have the dealer perform all required routine maintenance, and software updates would likely be automatic and managed by the manufacturer, anyways. Of course the whole point of Self-Driving car is that the owner doesn't operate them anymore, and software can manage all the tasks required ----- it's already out of reach for the average person to do required maintenance on their vehicle.... so people hire garages. As for those that don't; the SDC can detect when maintenance is required and when SDC-related systems are functioning correctly.

    The REAL motive is a communist one --- ban personal vehicle ownership (Or at least ownership of cars that can operate themselves), so everybody is effectively legally forced either drive the car themself or buy rides from Uber.

    This can only be described as self-serving bullshit designed to help Uber / Lyft make more money; and reduce or eliminate the systemic threat of SDCs to their entire business model at the expense of economic and personal freedom for the population..

    1. Re:Bullshit justification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The REAL motive is a communist one

      You really don't understand that word, do you?

      Here's a helpful hint: Uber and Lyft are not state owned.

  54. Re:It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Ask any San Francisco resident or commuter (other than a fanatic bike geek) how that has worked out.

    I want to know how said residents/commuters get to many of California's great attractions, such as Napa Valley, Yosemite National Park, Big Sur, etc.

  55. Re:It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas . by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

    Springs from the bottom up...oh, that's hilarious. Show me the working class who are demanding it. LOL. New Urbanists despise the working class. Why else do they make cities such a pain in the ass for them? You have to realize, people like that don't love the poor. They just hate the rich. The poor they regard as deplorable.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  56. uhmm... by SuperDre · · Score: 1

    Uber and Lyft should be banned........ If I can't own my own selfdriving car, then nor should they be able to own and operate those cars. Uber and Lyft both have shown not to actually be very nice and just go ahead with their services in areas even though they know it's illegal for them to operate, but hope the legislation will turn around and make it legal what they do..

  57. Congratulations, you just... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Congratulations, you just invented the bus!

    1. Re:Congratulations, you just... by Dayze!Confused · · Score: 1

      Except the bus doesn't let me choose if I want to allow other passengers or not, and are on fixed route. This system would take me from point A to point B with perhaps a couple short detours for other passengers. An algorithm could be used to figure out who is the best match for where I am going and help reduce the number of single occupancy rides, while minimizing time to get there. This idea is what the original ride sharing was supposed to be, actually sharing rides, not being a taxi driver.

      --
      "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
  58. NOT efficient at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Shared fleets can provide more affordable access to all, maximize public safety and emissions benefits, ensure that maintenance and software upgrades are managed by professionals..."

    I call BS - that shared care has to drive to my location to pick me up, that is NOT efficient, my own car is right here in the driveway!

  59. Home Cooking... by chris.vanderheyden · · Score: 0

    Soon, UberEATS will start lobbying to make home cooking illegal ...

    1. Re:Home Cooking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As they should. America is a free market, so why should hard working corporations be subject to unfair practices? Don't like it? Move to failing EU.

  60. I'd post the comment I just made out loud... by tlambert · · Score: 1

    I'd post the comment I just made out loud... ...but Siri informs me that I have just been fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.

    8^p

    Seriously Uber and Lyft dudes (this isn' sexist: they are both "Bro" shops): as soon as you own the vehicles, you are no longer a "ride sharing company", you become a "taxi company".

  61. Cut your own legs by mi · · Score: 1

    people who are anti-regulation and that's why they support a company that ignores regulations.

    I must be a person you are alluding to. I am against regulations — but not pro Uber.

    I argue in favor of liberty — such as the freedom of offering a ride to a willing customer in exchange for his money. Any "regulation" or law standing in the way of that, is evil and to be abolished.

    I fail to see, how Uber being assholes "cuts my legs" at all — because I do not tie the liberty to any particular entity exercising it. Are you suggesting, we abolish Freedom of Speech, because it protects KKK as well as investigative journalism?

    The very thought of yours, that such "cutting off" may be taking place, reveals you (and the moderators, who've granted your post such acclaim) to be people of rather questionable logical skills at best and ethics at worst.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Cut your own legs by MoralCharacter · · Score: 1

      Well then his comments on 'supporters of Uber who are anti-regulation' doesn't apply to you I'd think.
      You'd short circuit on the first logical evaluation dropping out of the statement; shouldn't even evaluate the second conditional.

    2. Re:Cut your own legs by mi · · Score: 1

      people who are anti-regulation and that's why they support a company that ignores regulations

      Well then his comments on 'supporters of Uber who are anti-regulation' doesn't apply to you I'd think.

      You may be separating people, who support anyone flaunting oppressive regulations, from people who support Uber, but such separation makes no sense.

      As with my KKK example, the support is for the Freedom of Speech — but not for the lynching. Similarly, these pro-taxi regulations should be abolished even if people/companies benefiting from the abolition are proponents of some other evil of their own.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  62. What about maintenance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly the same arguments can be made about non-self driving cars - fleets can be maintained to standards where individuals may be negligent - so lets stop people from being allowed to own their own cars and require them to use Uber and other service providers ...

  63. I'm in favor of something similar. by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    But it would mean that the cities buy fleets of self-driving vehicles that eliminate the need for companies like Uber and Lyft.

    I've dreamed of a great day when I don't need to own or operate a car but get the benefits of Uber without Uber. So, imagine a self-driving vehicle that you can call from an app, then based on the routes involved, ride sharing would be automatic. It wouldn't be a bus. Instead, it would be a multi-pod vehicle where each passenger pickup has their own pod where they can work, sleep or even make out. Then, as driving, if it would be more efficient to transfer a pod to another vehicle, it would occur while moving. This would allow smaller vehicles to service smaller areas and larger vehicles to service arteries.

    This system should be owned an operated by the government similar to buses and trains. And taxis and Ubers and Lyfts would be entirely unneeded.

  64. Is there anyone who does't get it yet? by RonVNX · · Score: 1

    Uber, Lyft, et. al. exist soley for the purpose of making money by screwing over society. Period. Full stop. Driving people places is incidental.

  65. Re:It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a damned if you do, and a damned if you don't. The difference is one has an option for reasonable transit, and the other doesn't. If San Fransisco didn't promote "apartment" buildings you would go through a cycle of major urban sprawl with massive traffic jams. But now you have all these buildings spread out so public transportation is a pain. You end up with the option of providing timely services, but that will cause downtown traffic to spike without having excessive number of transfer points. Or you don't have timely services to sparsely populated areas, but thus making the service not reasonable to use.

    You can have nice apartments and nice green space too with . But with suburbs yes, you have nice living spaces, but green space because an option only for the ultra rich.

  66. "Bicycles don't matter" companies want a monpoly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, what a great idea. Give exclusive monopolies to companies when faced with the problem of not properly detecting bicycles basically throw a temper tantrum by stating they would just go to another city that didn't have these pesky regulations instead of fixing the problem resposibly. (hmm, sounds like Trump and Amazon mentality also)

  67. Re:It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have to realize, people like that don't love the poor. They just hate the rich. The poor they regard as deplorable.

    Close. There is a class war in the US, but it is primarily between the inheritors and the earners, not any given wealth level. Inheritors absolutely do not want company. Very little of their wealth comes from traditional income, so they support enormous income taxes to penalize anyone trying to earn a lifestyle similar to what they grew up with.
    There are jerks among the earners as well, but they tend not to be in political positions, so they hire others to coerce the political inheritors. The basic process involves convincing some that a certain earner would be a welcome addition to the wealthy crowd, so special loopholes can be legislated to let that one in.

    Very very few people with economic and political power want simple rules that would allow the masses to earn their way into the ranks of the wealthy.

  68. Re:It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas . by thomst · · Score: 1

    To all of you who scoffed at the notion that New Urbanism has any power over planning in San Francisco, and that the SF Planning Commission has been captured by New Urbanists, allow me to direct your attention to the Metreon project. Athough the Wikipedia article does not mention it, I well recall the controversy over the Planning Commission's requirement that the additional parking included in the original proposal be reduced by over a third, specifically to make it less attractive to drive to the site - which is located on a corner of the Moscone Center convention facility, then already a parking nightmare (as any attendee of Apple's WWDC prior to 2017 will attest).

    Sony's foolish decision to charge admittance to the Metreon helped it to fail spectacularly (spectacularly enough that Sony backed out of the facility and sold its controlling interest to Westwood), but the parking situation certainly did not help to make it a more attractive destination. And, although the AMC megaplex onsite is quite profitable - despite how often moviegoers get shot there - the rest of the development is still underwater.

    When I was employed in downtown SF, I took BART to work as often as possible. But the nature of my job frequently dictated that I be at work past the BART system's closing time, leaving me little choice other than to drive. I hated being forced to choose between parking 8 blocks away, knowing I wouldn't be leaving work until the middle of the night, or paying the piratical parking fees more convenient locations demanded - and I doubt I was alone in that.

    Again, to be clear, it's commercial, office-use, and industrial-ish developments for which the Planning Commission dictates insufficient new parking. Their motivation is specifically to make driving - and especially parking - in downtown SF an ever more nightmarish experience, with the goal of forcing commuters to take public transit, instead. This is not a secret. PC members have explicitly said as much on many occasions. I know this because, up until 2000, when we moved away, I was heavily involved in local politics in El Cerrito, an East Bay suburb whose Planning Commission was also captured by New Urbanists. Members of that body frequently pointed to the San Francisco Planning Commision's goals and policies as a model for those of El Cerrito, both in public meetings and in private conversations with me and other politically-active citizens. (And, of course, from coverage of SFPC's hearings and deliberations in the San Francisco Chronicle, to which I was a subscriber, back in the days when that was a thing.)

    Finally, let me state for the record that I have no objections whatsoever to apartment or high-rise condominium living for those who live in downtown areas of big cities. Single-family detached dwellings make no economic sense in those settings. Nor do I object to public transit, when it's done properly. What I object to is the one-size-fits-all approach to any form of problem-solving, and I strongly object to forcing commuters into public transit in circumstances where pubic transit simply does not accomodate their needs (for instance, to haul large, bulky items) or schedules (i.e. - shift workers and others who must work late hours). Meat-axe approaches are fundamentally wrong-headed, and New Urbanists have an annoying tendency to view every planning problem as a nail ...

    --
    Check out my novel.
  69. Trade you my car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For a basic income.

  70. Who cares about the *cars* by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    The system that controls them is where the money is.

    Microsoft vs IBM all over again... and Uber is trying to be IBM.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  71. Self-driving cars worsen person-to-vehicle ratio by jddimarco · · Score: 1

    Most cars today are essentially single-user: "one person - one car". Add single-user self-driving cars to the mix and you will often get "no person - one car", such as when the car is circling the block while the user is on an errand, or when the car is going to pick up the user. This, left unchecked, will make traffic worse than it is now, by adding more vehicles to traffic without serving more people. If one limits the number of self-driving cars allowed in high-traffic areas (for example, by permitting only self-driving cars that serve multiple people per day), this problem can be constrained somewhat.

  72. Ownership has an advantage by edgedmurasame · · Score: 1

    Owning your car means you don't have to worry about user ratings to have (or offer) a ride.

    --
    "Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.
  73. It's not your car silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not your car if it's self driving. You always have to ASK it to take you somewhere, and it may or may not comply after a background check, especially if your last post on slashdot was some kind of ... erm

      Never mind.

  74. Re:It's Uber and Lyft pimping New Urbanist ideas . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love the shit, complete with scary -ist names, that you conservatives piss your panties over. It would be nice if these mastermind liberals were real. As of now we just have bought out pussies.

  75. cyborgs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "it would be much better if cybernetic organism enhancements were not owned by the individual, but rather controlled by a network administrator who knows better what the enhancements should be doing for, or to, the host organism". we can call the administrators "Pods"and the people with enhancements "Pod People".

  76. The Candlemakers... by meburke · · Score: 1

    Frederick Bastiat included a parable in his book, "Economic Sophisms" about candlemakers trying to outlaw the sun and require everyone to close their shutters during the day because the sun represented unfair competition and deprived the candlemakers of their just living.

    You would think it couldn't hapen in today's society, but here is a prime example. Add to that the legislation proposed by various states to protect the utilities from the unfair competition of solar power (actually enacted in Oklahoma), and various other examples, and you can see that economic education is sorely lacking in many places. Have we made no progress since 1845?

    --
    "The mind works quicker than you think!"