YouTube Kids App Still Showing Disturbing Videos (bbc.co.uk)

YouTube says it is "very sorry" after more disturbing videos were found on the YouTube Kids app. From a report: BBC's Newsround found several videos not suitable for children, including one showing how to sharpen knives. Another had characters from children's cartoon Paw Patrol on a burning plane. YouTube has been criticised for using algorithms rather than human curators to decide what appears on YouTube Kids. In 2015, two child safety groups complained after disturbing videos were found on the YouTube Kids app. YouTube said it needed to "do more" to tackle inappropriate videos being seen by children. Newsround had arranged for five children to meet Google's Katie O'Donovan. They spoke about distressing videos they had seen on the main YouTube website and app. The videos included images of clowns with blood on them, scary advertisements and messages telling them someone was at their door.

Comments

You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is unsuitable for children how?

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

1. When do children need to use knives?
2. When do children need to sharpen knives?

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[FictionPimp]

I learned how to use a knife around age 7. I also learned to shoot around then. I whittle with my grandfather and later was basicaly a prep cook at dinner time.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[wardrich86]

I'm actually really relieved to see so many people calling this bit out. It's a great skill to have - I remember learning how to do it in boy scouts... and it's kind of therapeutic to watch. 10/10 would recommend.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Austerity Empowers]

If it's the video's I see my 5yo stumble on, it's usually not the act of sharpening knives. Usually it's more of an itchy and scratchy type cartoon venue, where there's some implied intent or even cartoon violence.

I've seen quite a few of these sorts of things pop up, I'm not really sure what I think about them except that they're fairly dark. I usually grab the steering wheel at that point and go back to my little pony. But the trick is that if you let youtube do it's thing, it will inevitably lead back to the problematic content.

I guess I'm not horribly worried about her mental well being after seeing this stuff, it's fairly juvenile and I don't think she's that impressionable and she has a clear understanding of real/not real. I just wonder how youtube makes these connections.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[known_coward_69]

my kids are in elementary school and they've had cooking classes for a few years now with knives

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Today's adults who were raised on the 'violent and disturbing' antics of Bugs Bunny, Elmer Fudd, Wile E. Coyote and the rest of the Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies characters always come across to me as far more reasonable and friendly than those raised on the 'loving and caring' themes of Care Bears, Barney, and My Little Pony. In fact, the people who like stuff like the Care Bears, Barney and My Little Pony are, in my opinion and experience, some of the most damaged and deranged individuals around, often with a complete inability to function in normal society.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, the people who like stuff like the Care Bears, Barney and My Little Pony are, in my opinion and experience, some of the most damaged and deranged individuals around, often with a complete inability to function in normal society.

I guess you want to drop an anvil on them, right?

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Penguinisto]

1) Rural kids still use them all the time for chores and general things here and there. Knife usage, safety, and care *used* to be part of Cub Scout and Boy Scout lore.

2) when they get dull. a sharp knife is far safer than a dull one. If you use knives to do more than spread butter on toast, you'd learn this awful quickly.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[geekmux]

1. When do children need to use knives? 2. When do children need to sharpen knives?

Thank you for confirming why Siri and Alexa had to learn how to boil water.

Look on the bright side; Ignoramus adultus will never go extinct.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not at all. I don't want to see any harm come to such people. I want the opposite. I would very much like to see them become productive, functioning members of society, instead of being adults who play with pony dolls, dress up as cartoon horses, and feel the need to live their lives in a make-believe fantasy world.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

IMO, if the child is young enough where you're not yet ready to teach the safe handling of dangerous, easily-accessible tools ("child-proof" drawers and cabinets are an imperfect system, and sometimes you take out the knives to use them), then the child is too young to have access to any media not specifically and individually curated by a parent/guardian. Giving access of such a wide variety of unknown content to a child so small is just asking for trouble.

I'm not saying YouTube couldn't be better, I'm just saying that perhaps parents *also* need to reconsider what they allow their kids to access.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Sigma 7]

When they're being directed towards a culinary career. In fact, if you don't train children how to properly use knives, they become less effective at preparing meals (because they mishandle the knife and hack the meat rather than cutting it cleanly.)

Also related is not allowing children to do other complex things, like program a computer (cause "what's a computer"), perform math a few grades above the normal level (cause math is sooo hard), and so on. If you prevent children from learning anything, then they won't become as functional when they become adults.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

1. When do children need to use knives?
2. When do children need to sharpen knives?

Here are two answers to your strange questions:

1. Often. The Knife is a common tool that is used for a variety of daily tasks.

2. When they grow up. Adults who spent their youth learning useful things, are generally higher quality people.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[burningcpu]

I'm totally with you, but I'm also viewing this from an American perspective. The complaint and article hails from England where they view knives with an increasingly sinister connotation, as guns are largely unavailable and the news must have an object of fear. In the US, this object of fear has been a 6 - shot revolver.

For example, rather than showing an unrelated 6-shot revolver in the top right corner as the new's anchor discusses 'violent crime,' an unrelated knife would be shown.

What we see today is the genesis of social manipulation, targeted to make us fearful.

Remember all, crime is at a historic low. The 'Golden days of yore' is a lie.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Austerity Empowers]

I guess you want to drop an anvil on them, right?

Pinkie Pie> It's bear season.
Cheer Bear> It's pony season.
PP> BEAR SEASON!
CB> PONY SEASON!
PP> PONY SEASON!
CB> NO IT'S BEAR SEASON NOW SHOOT!
*BLAM!*

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh so you were actually supervised?

That's the difference.

YouTube is not supervision, YouTube is unable to correct the kids mistakes, or deal with any sharp knife accidents.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

I would very much like to see them become productive, functioning members of society, instead of being adults who play with pony dolls, dress up as cartoon horses, and feel the need to live their lives in a make-believe fantasy world.

So, they want to play with pony dolls, moving little figures around the dioramas of their imagination. Who cares?

So long as they leave you alone, why do you care? What productive task do you think they should be doing?

Let's compare:

They are happy to fantasize a world around ponies and dolls.
You are happy to fantasize a world where people behave in a fashion you deem productive.

Which of those is more malevolent? Probably neither. You are not actually controlling people. You just wish they behaved more like you.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[lgw]

. Knife usage, safety, and care *used* to be part of Cub Scout and Boy Scout lore.

To this day when someone hands me something I will say "thank you" once I've grabbed whatever it is firmly. People think I'm oddly polite, but it's the Cub Scout sharps training: "thank you" is the verbal signal for the person handing you the knife to let go. Funny what stays with you.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[lgw]

In fact, the people who like stuff like the Care Bears, Barney and My Little Pony are, in my opinion and experience, some of the most damaged and deranged individuals around, often with a complete inability to function in normal society.

CARE BEAR STARE! O.O

Oh, wait, this isn't an MMO flame war about whether the devs should focus on PvP or PvE content? Never mind then.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[ShanghaiBill]

Knife usage, safety, and care *used* to be part of Cub Scout and Boy Scout lore.

Still is. My son is a scout, and just earned his "whittling" badge, which included learning how to sharpen a carving knife.

During summer camp, he also learned how to sharpen and use an ax.

Miraculously, all his fingers are intact, but other scouts may not be so lucky. Obviously, scouting needs to be banned. Maybe the BBC can work on that after Youtube is shutdown.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

"Get a life, bin that knife"
From the country where an ID showing you are an adult is required before buying regular cutlery

cap: preclude

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[nitehawk214]

Which explains nicely why YouTube for Kids is stupid. YouTube, much like a knife or gun, should only be handled by a child under adult supervision.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't really matter. This is just the next step in the Youtube controversy. These types of journalists will always find something they deem offensive. No matter how much Youtube removes, there will always be something. There is no appeasing them because outrage gives them power over others.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Somewhere buried in a box, I still have my ol' Totin' Chit.

Probably next to that ever hilarious parody, the Tote'n Shit.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[pecosdave]

Same here, my dad gave me a hard time if I didn't have a knife in my pocket starting at age 7 or so. I rarely did due to school and not remembering to put it in my pocket after. It was rough.

I've been shooting some since about the age of four.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, same here. Captcha: Politer.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Far better than everything else which is completely filled with sexual innuendo or 'harass people until they give in to your demands thus becoming life long best buds.' Modern safe shows are so much worse than old-school cartoons.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Every politician I don't like is Hitler and every class I don't play needs to be nerfed.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically, they just need the British Broadcasting Corporation to invade the Boy Scouts of America. The empire shall never die.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Maritz]

Today's adults who were raised on the 'violent and disturbing' antics of Bugs Bunny, Elmer Fudd, Wile E. Coyote and the rest of the Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies characters always come across to me as far more reasonable and friendly than those raised on the 'loving and caring' themes of Care Bears, Barney, and My Little Pony. In fact, the people who like stuff like the Care Bears, Barney and My Little Pony are, in my opinion and experience, some of the most damaged and deranged individuals around, often with a complete inability to function in normal society.

Mm, I bet that's it man. It's all about the cartoons.

Re:You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Not-a-Neg]

I learned how to sharpen a knife in the Cub Scouts, it's a skill that helps teach a child how to handle a knife safely so they do not injure themselves or others. Same thing with learning how to handle firearms safely.

Re: You tube video shows how to sharpen knives

[Anonymous Coward]

No ban needed, people are keeping away from the BSA voluntarily these days now that they don't discriminate against gay leaders and members anymore.

Sharpening Knives

[Anonymous Coward]

Is a useful skill. The earlier to learn the better.

Why is that disturbing?

Re:Sharpening Knives

[laie_techie]

Is a useful skill. The earlier to learn the better.

Why is that disturbing?

Age and maturity are key. If a toddler sees someone sharpening a knife on YouTube, they might try to do it themselves without notifying a grownup. Toddlers lack the fine motor skills for sharpening a knife safely (plus might not understand the instructions correctly), creating an unsafe situation. One of my older brothers cut his hand badly trying to cut an apple with a butter knife because the sharp knives were out of his reach.

Re:Sharpening Knives

[Whorhay]

Yeah, but what does that say about using knives in a household with children? Out of fear that a child will try and emulate your actions that could be dangerous if done improperly, you never let them see you using a knife? Heaven forbid a child live in a house with stairways.

If the video of knife sharpening was showing some kind of plainly unsafe method, or deliberately trying to trick people into doing something dangerous it'd be objectionable. Otherwise I can't see the harm in it. Kids will mimic every little thing that you do, and then try and make up their own ways of doing it just for fun. Do we really want to advocate for parents abstaining from all activities around their children which the child might not be able to do safely?

Re:Sharpening Knives

[laie_techie]

Yeah, but what does that say about using knives in a household with children? Out of fear that a child will try and emulate your actions that could be dangerous if done improperly, you never let them see you using a knife? Heaven forbid a child live in a house with stairways.

If the video of knife sharpening was showing some kind of plainly unsafe method, or deliberately trying to trick people into doing something dangerous it'd be objectionable. Otherwise I can't see the harm in it. Kids will mimic every little thing that you do, and then try and make up their own ways of doing it just for fun. Do we really want to advocate for parents abstaining from all activities around their children which the child might not be able to do safely?

There is this thing with the misnomer of common sense; apparently it's not that common. Anything can be taken to the extremes. When a baby is learning to crawl, we protect the stair cases with baby gates. As the child is ready, we open the baby baby gates as we traverse the stairs with the infant, ready to catch them if they fall more than a few steps. When the baby is more stable, we remove the baby gates all together. Appropriate protection based on the kid's age and maturity.

When I was 9 some neighborhood dogs broke the back of a neighborhood cat in our backyard. My dad stopped the fight, then took the cat into the shed where he euthanized it. Are you saying that my younger brother (5 years old) and sister (4 years old) should have seen my dad mix the chemicals, soak the rag, and hold it up to the cat's mouth? Knowing how to humanely kill an animal in pain is a useful skill, but one which should be reserved for more mature individuals.

Re:Sharpening Knives

[Whorhay]

I would argue that your Father was not humane in his dispatching of a mortally wounded cat. He prolonged its suffering so that he could euthanize it in a fashion that would be less traumatic for his own mental state. As my own Father once pointed out to me a single hard blow from a club like instrument is faster, simpler, and more humane. The reason your Father went to such lengths is that our society has for whatever reason decided to avoid the topic of death with children because we under estimate their ability to cope with it. In reality by failing to address it we handicap ourselves to deal with it when it inevitably happens to those around us.

When you have a kid that can't yet safely navigate the stairs solo you utilize safety equipment to prevent them from trying. What you don't do is forbid anyone from using the stairs in sight of the child. There is no good reason to prevent a kid from seeing how a knife is sharpened, or even used. There is every reason to restrict their access to knives until they are capable of handling a knife safely.

Ban Blacksmiths

[nagora]

When I was a kid we watched programmes about blacksmiths who made knives! I still have flashbacks.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Whorhay]

I really don't know what to say to someone that thinks sharpening a knife isn't safe video content for a kid. Hell I sharpen my kitchen knifes on wet stones in the dining room. My kids will watch for the first couple minutes then get bored and do something else.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[sinij]

You are joking, I hope, but where I live there are actually attempts to ban clowns and clown costumes because some children are afraid of clowns.

Never underestimate illogical stupidity of soccer moms high on protect the cub instincts.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm coulrophobic. you insensitive clod!

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Calydor]

Hell, I would rather the kids know how to handle the knives properly than not!

Re: Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

So would you rather have the kids learn how to do so from you, or from a random YouTube video? It might be appropriate for a parent to teach this, but not youtube

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[MitchDev]

The only form of clown-banning I support is ignoring the boring things so they go out of business.

I don't find them scary, but I don't find them interesting or entertaining either, just... lame ... and boring...

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a big fan of high soccer moms. A big fan.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[nagora]

Yes, I am joking. In reality I grew up in a period when it was thought important to teach children about the Nazis. As a result, at school, we were shown film of mass graves, concentration camp liberations, executions by firing squad, and even a very, very short clip of Hitler's generals hanging from the piano wire after the failed assassination attempt.

And, to be fair, I didn't grow up to be a Nazi.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[laie_techie]

I really don't know what to say to someone that thinks sharpening a knife isn't safe video content for a kid. Hell I sharpen my kitchen knifes on wet stones in the dining room. My kids will watch for the first couple minutes then get bored and do something else.

You are deciding what's appropriate for your kids. You are creating a safe teaching environment. The same thing could be accomplished by screening instructions on regular You Tube and watching that video later with your kids. As a father of 2 toddler boys, I'd want my wife present to help keep the kids within viewing distance without trying to touch the knives. The difference is the age of my kids and yours. You Tube Kids markets itself to parents of toddlers and preschoolers. If you could create filters per child on You Tube Kids, you could decide. As it stands, You Tube Kids doesn't know who's watching - just the email of the parent.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Aquaphobic, ban the ocean!

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[freeze128]

You need to use the approved "My Little Pony Whetstone".

Re: Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, and if you're a parent of a small child, you should be raising them, and teaching them knife use and maintenance, and other valuable life skills, not pacifying them with a phone or tablet, and YouTube Nanny Edition.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm uranophobic! I shall BAN THE SKY!!

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

Creimertard. Mod down.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

Creimer doesn't have "sockpockets" (sockpuppets, dumb ass). He does have a very easy to track troll (you) who is susceptible to being modded down.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm not that old. "

You're 50. You saw reruns plenty of times.

"I'm the AC "

Cough. Christopher Dale Reimer.

" marking your comments with "Creimertard. Mod down.""

Every AC is creimertard. Sure, Chris.

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

"Nope. I'm just a girl who knew creimer back in the day and now live in NYC."

Ah ha. Why would Chris hang out with a "girl" (at 30, people are generally considered men or women, Chris.) that's 20 years younger? He, um, you, Chris, was 40 and hanging out with a 20 year old "girl"? Or were you 30 and hanging out with a 10 year old girl?

"Grow up, asshole."

Says the guy with 15 Slashdot sockpockets, an author blog no one reads, YouTube videos no one watches, eBooks no one reads, and poetry he never published.

Give up your geek cred, Chris....

Re:Ban Blacksmiths

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! A 30 year old who posted this:

In terms of projects, you're more likely to build software for organizing a professor's DVD or textbook collection than you are responsive web apps.

I did that in middle school to organize my software collection on cassette tapes.

So you're telling me a 30 year old had a software collection on cassette tapes when they were in middle school? You would be in middle school in...2000. When software would be on Hard Drive or maybe a USB stick.

Software hasn't been stored on cassette tape since 1982 or so. A middle schooler then would be...48 now.

Good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure what you folks were like growing up, I was grabbing at every single gory movie I could get my hands on with glee.

Heck I tried to run out with my parents and sister to pick up the freddy krueger doll from toys r us before they pulled it from the shelves.

Suffice to say, you cannot do permanent damage to a human psyche via the visual ingestion of violent seeming acts on a screen. We all would have been insane. The parents should lose and kids should be able to access the materials they desire without censorship.

Don't try to screw up reality because you have some kind of shame about being a human and what that means.

More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

More bubble wrap! Won't somebody please think of the children?!

Re:More bubble wrap!

[DontBeAMoran]

Forget the children! I like bubble wrap too!

Pop! Pop! Pop!

Re:More bubble wrap!

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget the children! I like bubble wrap too!

Pop! Pop! Pop!

I blame your parents for letting you watch videos of people popping bubble wrap as a child.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[Anonymous Coward]

Search youtube for "peppa pig and the bacon".

My kids love Peppa Pig. If they saw that video, they'd be scarred for life.

Little kids are very impressionable. We joke about bubble wrap, but there is some seriously disturbing shit on the internet.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[AmiMoJo]

In this case the concern is probably justified. Folding Ideas covered it in a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Basically very young children don't see the world the way adults do, they don't process information in the same way. That's why these videos are so effective, despite being literal nonsense. They prey on the weaknesses of undeveloped minds, in a way that exploits children by feeding them a series of bizarre and kinda disturbing videos.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

You should know better than try to claim causation based on statistically weak correlational findings. This is exactly how we arrived to satanic panic.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

Forget the children! I like bubble wrap too!

Pop! Pop! Pop!

I blame your parents for letting you watch videos of people popping bubble wrap as a child.

Exactly. One day popping bubble wrap, the next day popping a suicide vest in a crowded place.

Wait, what just happened?

Re:More bubble wrap!

[VeryFluffyBunny]

Search youtube for "peppa pig and the bacon".

My kids love Peppa Pig. If they saw that video, they'd be scarred for life.

Little kids are very impressionable. We joke about bubble wrap, but there is some seriously disturbing shit on the internet.

Quoting this point so that it gets seen. Thanks AC :)

I think the dismissive comments come from people who either don't have kids or don't pay enough attention to them to see when they get upset or disturbed by something they see. Youtube employees may be of the same Ilk. tl;dr -- We can't trust Google with our kids.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[AmiMoJo]

I didn't, you read it wrong.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

I think the dismissive comments come from people who either don't have kids or don't pay enough attention to them to see when they get upset or disturbed by something they see.

You forget to consider third alternative - responsible parents that want kids to develop coping mechanisms early in life so they don't end up emotionally stunted wrecks and permanent members of the self-identified victimhood class/race/orientation.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[lgw]

The colorful videos of copyrighted characters, while jarring and disturbing to adults, isn't what people are complaining about. This is the same old song as the complaints about Coyote and Roadrunner cartons. However, there's also some legitimately disturbing stuff there, though it's very rare, as groups like 4chan try to game the system for lols.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

I have seen Coyote dismembered, burned, mutilated, mangled, and blown up dozens of times. How come I, and my fellow generation, did not grow up murdering sociopaths or psychotic wrecks?

Re:More bubble wrap!

[The Good Reverend]

So you're taking your kids to morgues and showing them Faces of Death? Most kids can cope just fine, but young ones especially don't need any extra violence or gore in their lives. There's nothing wrong with limiting everyone's exposure to violence.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

So you're taking your kids to morgues and showing them Faces of Death? Most kids can cope just fine, but young ones especially don't need any extra violence or gore in their lives. There's nothing wrong with limiting everyone's exposure to violence.

You are confusing your emotions with reason, and acting on them. First, you mischaracterize and misstate what I suggested in attempt to smear. Second, you rationalize your helicoptering by understating magnitude of your actions.

The question here is about attempting to eliminate any hint of something that could be potentially seen as violence. The kind of busybody nonsense that keep trying to ban toy guns because they mistakenly believe pretend gun play leads to violence.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, watch the video. It's not Looney Tunes style violence. Peppa kills and eats her father. It ends with her cutting flesh off her own arm and eating it. Seriously dark shit. I guarantee if my five year old saw it, it would be one of those things he'd still remember when he's 50.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well YouTube kids is essentially for the children, so you figure they should at least try.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[AmiMoJo]

Because there isn't a simple monkey-see monkey-do link.

What does this have to do with child exploitation and bizarre, disturbing imagery?

Re:More bubble wrap!

[AmiMoJo]

I didn't actually make the argument you are trying to counter. In not going to disagree with you because I'm not the imaginary person you are having an argument with.

Did you not read the post or watch the video, or is this some kind of hallucination? Who do you think you are responding to? Or is this just a general point unrelated to the prior content of the thread?

Re:More bubble wrap!

[lgw]

The video you linked to (seen it, I subscribe to that guy) was about people gaming the YouTube recommendation engine to get views from pre-literate kids for ad money. It's pretty much algorithmic imagery at this point. It's not what people are worried about, except to the extent they show characters kids know being injured. That latter part is much like the long-running debate on cartoon violence.

There's also a problem with stuff like "images of clowns with blood on them, scary advertisements and messages telling them someone was at their door", which are not coming from the monetize-the-kids guys, and are very likely 4channers etc deliberately messing with YT Kids.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[AmiMoJo]

You are still arguing with someone else, but replying to me.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[VeryFluffyBunny]

A simplified analogy: How would you feel about watching videos of your loved ones being raped, tortured, and mutilated and assuming that they were real? Is that something you'd like to see? Would you consider it to be a character-building experience?

This is pretty much what goes through the mind of a toddler when they're exposed to these deliberately disturbing Youtube videos. They're made by sick fucks to do as much harm to children as they possibly can and you're trying to defend them and the corporation which does too little to prevent it.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

you're trying to defend them and the corporation which does too little to prevent it.

No you are misrepresenting what I am trying to do. This argument isn't about keeping gore out of YouTube Kids, it is about sanitizing it to the extreme and absurd level. To the point that Looney Tunes won't pass the filters.

If you want to bubble wrap your kids to this extreme, it is your prerogative as a parent. However, don't expect the rest of us to do it for you and our own kids. You are not entitled to your parenting views being forced on everyone else.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[lgw]

You're just trolling at this point.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[VeryFluffyBunny]

This discussion thread is about the videos on Youtube that are clearly inappropriate and 'disturbing' for toddlers to see. Which thread are you responding to?

Re:More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

You don't define "clearly inappropriate and 'disturbing' for toddlers to see". Rather you use it as a substitution for "videos I think may be inappropriate or upsetting for me to see toddler watch". Example from elsewhere in this discussion is sharpening knives.

Re:More bubble wrap!

[sinij]

What does this have to do with child exploitation and bizarre, disturbing imagery?

What does child exploitation has to do with this discussion?

Re:More bubble wrap!

[VeryFluffyBunny]

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... Now tell me I'm over reacting.

Give them a break

[110010001000]

They DID say they were sorry. It isn't like you are paying for it, or anything.

Terrible

[Hognoxious]

Another had characters from children's cartoon Paw Patrol on a burning plane.

That's just awful!

It should be the creators.

Re:Terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

With Captain Planet it was the planet burning. I guess that show was too early for its time.

Re:Terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

It's clearly an homage to Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight Rises.

Having Cake and Eating It, Too

[forkfail]

YouTube, and all social media platforms, are going to have to eventually make a decision.

Do they want to be a marketplace of ideas, with all the noise, discomfort, falsehoods, unpleasant opinions, disagreement, and flat out nastiness that goes along with all the good that comes from having an open forum of ideas, viewpoints, and worldviews?

Or do they want to be a "trusted source and safe place", where content is highly vetted, viewpoints limited, and certain biases encouraged and others discouraged so that nothing unexpected or unpleasant is encountered?

It seems like they're trying to have it both ways at present, but the two goals, as far as I can tell, are mutually exclusive.

Re:Having Cake and Eating It, Too

[DontBeAMoran]

That's exactly what they're trying to do here.

Regular YouTube.
Kids YouTube.

Re:Having Cake and Eating It, Too

[forkfail]

Perhaps. But I was also considering the various pressures, internal and external, to add certain biases and remove others from the YouTube algorithm.

It seems to me that it is all part and parcel.

Re:Having Cake and Eating It, Too

[CaptainDork]

No.

Parents are going to have to eventually make a decision.

Re:Having Cake and Eating It, Too

[tepples]

Do they want to be a marketplace of ideas [...] Or do they want to be a "trusted source and safe place"

I don't see how it'd be inconsistent to claim that YouTube as a whole is intended to be the former but YouTube Kids is intended to be the latter.

Re:Having Cake and Eating It, Too

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they want to be a marketplace of ideas, with all the noise, discomfort, falsehoods, unpleasant opinions, disagreement, and flat out nastiness that goes along with all the good that comes from having an open forum of ideas, viewpoints, and worldviews?

Or do they want to be a "trusted source and safe place", where content is highly vetted, viewpoints limited, and certain biases encouraged and others discouraged so that nothing unexpected or unpleasant is encountered?

And at the exact moment they claim to have a "YouTube Kids", then the expectation is that the child friendly version is a "trusted source and safe place", where content is highly vetted.

Sure, YouTube can continue to be the wild west, but as soon as you claim to have a kid-safe environment, you're kind of on the hook to actually do that.

If you can't, then stop fucking pretending and claiming you have something you don't. But make no mistake, they are claiming they have a kid-safe environment, and they apparently don't.

So either stop making the claim, or actually vet your content.

Go ahead, be a market place of ideas .. in which keep all children off of it and don't pretend to be child safe. But at the precise moment you claim to have a child safe environment, you better actually have it.

Re:Having Cake and Eating It, Too

[omfglearntoplay]

I call bullshit. I think the KIDS APP needs to only have approved kids stuff. Otherwise we start inching toward the line of Big Tobacco companies advertising to 5 year olds.

You can have regular adult friendly Youtube be mostly whatever, but the kids app is a whole different animal.

Re: Having Cake and Eating It, Too

[nitehawk214]

Or maybe Google shouldn't be anyone's nanny.

Exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want programming that is vetted and safe for kids, then you need to pay money to people who do the vetting.

Make a subscription channel that is guaranteed safe for kids, and use the subscription money to keep that promise.

If parents are too cheap to subscribe to that, then they can instead get more involved in their kid's entertainment decisions. Their choice.

Re:Exactly.

[110010001000]

Exactly. You need to allow Google to take money from you every month, AND allow them to track your kids. You can't expect them to police their own website!

Re:Exactly.

[MitchDev]

Pay attention to what your kids are doing/watching? What are you, a communist!?!?!?!? /sarcasm:off

Re:Exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, no, you don't "need" to allow Google to do anything.

I'm just pointing out that some things naturally have a price tag associated with them.

Something always slips through

[Anonymous Coward]

Even on Netflix there was pictures of penises on one episode of a kids show. Unless every video is manually approved something will happen, and even then a rogue employee can sneak something in.

Re: Something always slips through

[Anonymous Coward]

What exactly is wrong with a penis? I am pretty sure a good percentage of kids have one and that they are completely normal appendages.

Re: Something always slips through

[ripvlan]

Completely normal. I'm choking as I laugh. My son ran naked into a room once and pointed at his, uh, appendage -- shrieking in laughter "Look what I have, Look what I have."

Yeah - completely normal.

Re: Something always slips through

[Anonymous Coward]

Your son sounds retarded. You should have him checked out.

Re:Something always slips through

[laie_techie]

Even on Netflix there was pictures of penises on one episode of a kids show. Unless every video is manually approved something will happen, and even then a rogue employee can sneak something in.

In that particular case, Netflix trusted the producers of Maya the Bee which somehow missed it. Your comment sounds kinda defeatist: since we can't get 100% every time, we shouldn't even try. It became a big deal because parents made a big deal, so the media made a big deal, so more parents made a big deal, so children wanted to see what the hoopla was all about. Labeling it as dirty gave it the same appeal as the forbidden fruit.

Re: Something always slips through

[Anonymous Coward]

Your son sounds retarded. You should have him checked out.

I see you wear your capotain (puritan hat) proudly.

Re: Something always slips through

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound retarded

Here we are

[Anonymous Coward]

In the age of tech giant monopolies and firehose, content bandwidth. Can we really be surprised that the powers to be have been allowed to foster an 'algorithms are good enogh' attitude regarding content filtering?

Depends on the age

[Comboman]

That would depend on the age of the children. Sharpening knives is not a task any responsible parent would assign to a pre-schooler; and pre-schoolers are the target audience of the YouTube Kids app. Older children can easily figure out how to get to the real YouTube and find all the cutlery-based entertainment they want.

Re:Depends on the age

[laie_techie]

That would depend on the age of the children. Sharpening knives is not a task any responsible parent would assign to a pre-schooler; and pre-schoolers are the target audience of the YouTube Kids app. Older children can easily figure out how to get to the real YouTube and find all the cutlery-based entertainment they want.

I wish I had mod points! When my boys use YouTube Kids, it's under my email address (they're too young to create their own Gmail accounts according to the ToS). There is no way for YouTube Kids to know which child is watching or their ages. As a result, the recommendations are based on both boys' viewing habits. I've actually submitted a request to Google to remedy this situation. Having a per user profile also allows them to use some sort of ratings system (such as MPAA) to filter what gets shown to whom. Even Netflix lets me indicate who is watching: myself, my wife, my older boy, or my younger boy. We all get good recommendations and I can configure the boys' profiles to filter stuff I feel is inappropriate.

I started shooting before Kindergarten. Of course, back then my dad or grandpa would be present and teach all the proper safety rules. My nephews went on deer hunts at 5 with their dad. I learned to sharpen knives in Cub Scouts under the watchful eye of the den leader. Getting my own pocket knife was a reward for passing off merit badges and showing I was mature enough to handle it.

My older boy is only 3, so I don't want him to learn gun and knife safety from a random stranger on the internet. He does help in the kitchen with adult supervision. He turns the handle when we make popcorn on the stove. He cooks his own scrambled eggs. He uses a butter knife to spread peanut butter on bread. Based on age and maturity level I don't let him use sharp knives. He has seen his older cousins shoot guns, but he hasn't yet pulled the trigger. As his parent, this is what I feel is appropriate for him. Other children mature more quickly or more slowly. Give us some ratings and let us define the filters.

Re:Depends on the age

[geekmux]

That would depend on the age of the children. Sharpening knives is not a task any responsible parent would assign to a pre-schooler; and pre-schoolers are the target audience of the YouTube Kids app.

From the Google Play store, describing the YouTube Kids app:

"...make it safer and simpler for kids to explore the world through online video – from their favorite shows and music to learning how to build a model volcano..."

Nothing like trumping knife safety with a little ethanoic acid...

Re:Depends on the age

[Notabadguy]

I started shooting before Kindergarten. Of course, back then my dad or grandpa would be present and teach all the proper safety rules. My older boy is only 3, so I don't want him to learn gun and knife safety from a random stranger on the internet. He does help in the kitchen with adult supervision.

That is why parenting needs to remain the responsibility of parents, not of technology. If you don't like what your children might see on the internet, restrict or remove their use of it. They don't need the internet to be a functional child.

Use YOUR story. Your dad or your grandpa were present when you learned to shoot and taught you proper safety rules. Youtube wasn't around back then, but there's a physical parallel to draw - if they had taken you to massive gun show while you were a child, would they have released you and let you run around freely, to see what you wanted, talk to whom you wanted, do what you wanted at the tender age of 3-5?

No?

I bet your father and grandfather also didn't think it was the responsibility of gun show hosts and vendors to ensure that no one cursed or showed any content that might be inappropriate for a 3-5 year old either.

Re:Depends on the age

[Anonymous Coward]

Hazzuh! Not the gun part (nothing wrong with that), but the be-a-parent-or-don't-fucking-breed part.

Re:Depends on the age

[Anonymous Coward]

So you let services which say kids aren't allowed to use them baby sit your kids then you blame those same services for not having child friendly features. Parents are full of themselves. There are kid friendly services out there, go use one of those if you need to use something.

Re:Depends on the age

[laie_techie]

So you let services which say kids aren't allowed to use them baby sit your kids then you blame those same services for not having child friendly features. Parents are full of themselves. There are kid friendly services out there, go use one of those if you need to use something.

You Tube Kids advertises itself as a kid-friendly version of the full-blown You Tube. The parent is ultimately responsible. A minor cannot enter into legal agreements, so Google has the parent sign up. I don't use You Tube Kids to babysit. I do not blame You Tube Kids when something slips through the cracks. Making suggestions as to how to improve the service isn't blaming, is it?

Re:Depends on the age

[Anonymous Coward]

Ethanoic acid is often laced across foods linked to heart attacks. It's also used alongside sodium chloride, which is made of two very deadly chemicals. Know what else is in ethanoic acid? Hydric acid, which has the highest PH value of all known acids.

Thank Goodness Gracious!!

[barbariccow]

Wait, they showed the firefighter dog saving a burning airplane? What's next, are they going to do the big reveal on where exactly the paw patrol's favourite bones comes from? Hint: They aren't picked from The Bone Tree in The Great Bone Orchard!

Re:Thank Goodness Gracious!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids shouldn't be told firefighters exist! Just think of how many little kids want to be firefighters, then compare it to the amount of actual firefighters! Setting them up for crushed dreams is just pure evil! Shame on you!

Must Be Getting Old

[Anonymous Coward]

I really do have a fear for the upcoming society being shielded by corporations or governments who believe they "know better" to such an extent that they will not have the wherewithal to turn away from something disturbing.

And why is it? Is it due to the general lack of parenting? Is it government overreach? Is it corporate overreach? I am not sure.

Begin the old-person speech. "Back in my day" if I didn't want to see something, I turned away, turned the channel, left the room, etc. I still get squicked out if I see certain things and I don't complain, I find something else to occupy my time.

What happens 10, 30, 50 years down the line now though? These current 5-10 year olds won't have the mental ability to turn away because they were never taught there was a second option.

I wish I could say "I'll just move to X country" but unfortunately this has become a pandemic. The only way to cure it is to kill the source.

Really...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh noooooooooo one showing how to sharpen knives oh god save the children!!!!!!!! I mean they are only eating Tide Pods at this point, how dare learn how to sarpen knives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a recycled plot

[Whooty McWhooface]

Since Hollywood reboots the same movie plots for every generation, why is it a shock the advertisers do it as well?

"We traced the texts. They are coming from inside/right outside the house!!!"

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You really have some extremist views of the left.

Banning clowns is like banning Romani

[tepples]

where I live there are actually attempts to ban clowns and clown costumes because some children are afraid of clowns.

Would it likewise be justifiable to attempt to ban Romani traditional dress because some children are afraid of Romani? Watch clowns fight back by calling whiteface makeup "traditional sunscreen" and oversized clothes "protective loose clothing for the climate change era", in effect painting coulrophobia (fear of clowns) as a xenophobia.

Re:Banning clowns is like banning Romani

[magarity]

Would it likewise be justifiable to attempt to ban Romani

Romani ite domum

Re:Banning clowns is like banning Romani

[lgw]

The clown costume is just a parody of the homeless alcoholic (at least, the homeless of a few decades back, when it became ritualized). Or at least I hope it's a parody, and not a remnant of a time when people paid random hobos to entertain their kids.

Re:It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Leftist ideology requires there to be a large, passive, dependent population that is ruled over by a relatively small leftist elite.

That's weird because leftist ideology calls for abolishing said elite. One might speculate as to how realistic that is in the real world but there it is.

Time limits

[ArchieBunker]

I still think phone and tablet use should be metered out to young children. Kids being glued to a screen while missing out on social interaction is going to be a bad thing. I see kids out in public watching phones the entire time they are out. I guess it comes down to lazy parenting and them being satisfied their child is busy and not having to interact with them. Will these kids ever be shocked when they get a job somewhere and be expected to have an attention span.

Re:Time limits

[Anonymous Coward]

My kid won't need a job once we have UBI

Re:Time limits

[david_thornley]

We allowed my son restricted "screen time" most of the time. It seemed to work. He's got an independent life and a well-paying job now.

Re:Time limits

[Notabadguy]

I still think phone and tablet use should be metered out to young children. Kids being glued to a screen while missing out on social interaction is going to be a bad thing. I see kids out in public watching phones the entire time they are out. I guess it comes down to lazy parenting and them being satisfied their child is busy and not having to interact with them. Will these kids ever be shocked when they get a job somewhere and be expected to have an attention span.

Indeed.

God forbid parents play with their children instead of demanding technology provide parenting alternatives.

Also, it irks me that they're labeling things like knife sharpening videos as disturbing. Disturbing youtube videos that I would be alarmed if children were watching would be things like, "ISIS beheads man with chainsaw" or "Man gets raped by horse" or "woman gets raped on camera" or "person gets run over by drunk driver on video."

I don't want kids seeing that stuff. Those are disturbing. But a video on how to sharpen a knife?

Not a parent replacement

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's not worth taking the time to go online and use YouTube to learn, then ask your parents how instead. You don't need an app to keep your kids entertained for "safe" dull howto's. That's what you are for.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You really have some extremist views of the left.

Extremist? Are you fucking kidding me? When it comes to politics, the reasonable middle ground is more vacuous than Kylie Jenner's head. - (paraphrased from Dennis Miller circa 1999 and adopted for GenY/Z).

Barney the Dinosaur

[TimSSG]

Did they show hunters going after Barney the Dinosaur? Tim S.

Re:Barney the Dinosaur

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what Barney does now, right?

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[lgw]

Wow. You really have some extremist views of the left.

Replace "left" with "progressive", or more honestly "Post-Modernist", and I agree with him. This is a problem the right in the US struggles with: there's this very small, but very vocal, part of the US left that active works to destroy America, or at least what we stand for. It's far too easy to attribute that motive to the left as a whole, but that's nonsense on par with calling all Trump supporters racists.

I think an important part of healing the current cultural rift in America is to distinguish between the actual fringe and the 80-90% of Americans left and right who are just normal people, without crazy views.

I know this was BBC, but

[bradley13]

...even in the wimpy formerly-great Britain, knives are tools, and sharpening them is how you take care of them. Why, exactly, is that disturbing? It's something I learned to do at the age of 9 or 10.

Re:I know this was BBC, but

[iggymanz]

indeed, father gave me pocket knife at age 10 and showed me how to sharpen knives. Also, he taught me how to solder, grind damaged screwdriver blade, file parts, etc.

geez god forbid our children learn to safely use tools

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency

[nitehawk214]

Aww, but strawmen are so easy to beat.

Re:It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not a leftist thing so much as an authoritarian thing.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[david_thornley]

Does someone want to tell this particular leftist what "post-modernist" actually means? I know that 'progressive" has turned into an insult among right-wingers, although you'd think progress would generally be a good thing. (Current Western civilization is the best ever, in many ways.)

One thing you need to understand is that people with all sorts of politics can be patriots. Their ideas as to what's good for the country may differ wildly, and their ideas about how to get there will differ more, but the country was founded partly on freedom of expression and encouraging diverse ideas.

I'm more concerned with the small but currently vocal right-wingers who want to drag us into fascism, right now. They're being more successful at this time.

My first response

[david_thornley]

The first thing that occurred to me was, "Has anyone read traditional fairy tales?".

Awww look

[Anonymous Coward]

All the closet-pedo-appologist-neckbeard-pervs are out in force today.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You really have some extremist views of the left.

Replace "left" with "progressive", or more honestly "Post-Modernist", and I agree with him. This is a problem the right in the US struggles with: there's this very small, but very vocal, part of the US left that active works to destroy America, or at least what we stand for. It's far too easy to attribute that motive to the left as a whole, but that's nonsense on par with calling all Trump supporters racists.

I think an important part of healing the current cultural rift in America is to distinguish between the actual fringe and the 80-90% of Americans left and right who are just normal people, without crazy views.

They vote for YOUR politicians.

You own them.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, hey. Slow down there comrade. Next you will be wanting affordable health care.

Re:It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[Anonymous Coward]

Speculation not required, observation suffices in establishing actual disconnect between ideological aims and real world delivery.

Why is it youtube's fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it youtube's fault that parents allow their children access to the entire world's videos made by *anyone* without supervision?

BOS

[Anonymous Coward]

You just can't pack kids deep enough inside the Bubble Of Safety

The solution being ..

[najajomo]

The solution being, don't let your kids on the Internet unsupervised !!!

Re:The solution being ..

[Anonymous Coward]

The solution being, don't let your kids on the Internet unsupervised !!!

Yes, wouldn't want them to grow up to be insane, right-wing shitheads who will never feel the touch of a woman.

Your inadequacies are literally steaming off your post history.

Re:The solution being ..

[najajomo]

@Anonymous Coward: "Yes, wouldn't want them to grow up to be insane, right-wing shitheads who will never feel the touch of a woman. Your inadequacies are literally steaming off your post history."

Dear anonymous gutless fuck, thank you for that brief extract from your autobiography, now why not fuck off back to Reddit and fap off over furries, an expansive ornate building or yellow-scaled wingless dragonkin :]

FAF

[dohzer]

Had a look at one of these a few weeks ago and couldn't stop laughing.
Soooo good.

you should look at the content

[Anonymous Coward]

If you haven't already, you should check out this "disturbing content" that people are talking about.

Basically what has happened is that Google created an incentive for people to post videos on their site. The system is mostly automated, like the "adwords" system from the mid 2000's - after scanning a page for keywords, the system looks for a set of ads (or videos) to show to user, and if a user clicks an ad (or watches a video) that affiliate gets paid for the click (view). People found all sorts of crazy ways to exploit the adwords system, like building engines to park millions of domain names on a single server, tracking the clicks, and passing the Google payouts, minus a commission, to the domain name holders.

The video incentive works like this: people are using YouTube as a television babysitter, turning on autoplay and letting children watch whatever comes up next. These aren't viewers who are going to report copyrighted content, because they actually want to watch that content. And these are big consumers, they leave YouTube on all day and whatever the algorithm picks is going to get a steady amount of views and thus a steady payout. So if you are in a country with cheap labor and access to video production equipment, you create some janky videos of a kid in a Spiderman suit sticking his fingers in an electrical socket, or cartoons of Paw Patrol characters eating hamburgers with Princess Elsa, anything you like (almost none of these video have dialog, by the way). Now you have some content, YouTube has a platform you can exploit, you create some channels and upload the content with optimized keywords in the title and wait for the views. Funnel some of the profits back into creating more cheap content, keep adding channels and testing keywords, and enjoy your new income stream.

Hobos and the piecework service economy

[tepples]

Or at least I hope it's a parody, and not a remnant of a time when people paid random hobos to entertain their kids.

Lately, through services such as Lyft, Uber, Fiverr, and Airbnb, the piecework service economy has become the new normal. Thus the era of the hobo, an itinerant who goes from place to place for work, is now.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[lgw]

Does someone want to tell this particular leftist what "post-modernist" actually means?

Post-Modernism grew out of Stalinist/Maoist Communism, and is sort of a super-set. Communism focused on tearing down people's beliefs in anything but the state, and keeping people against each other on Marxist class warfare lines. Post-Modernism widens to use identity politics to set everyone against everyone else, and tears down not just peoples beliefs, but the idea of individual merit (anyone more successful than you must have cheated the system or oppressed you, because merit is a myth/social construct), and logical reasoning as a whole ("logic is a tool of the patriarchy" and "mathematics embodies Whiteness" are actual papers, plus replacing reasoning with credentials).

The rise of identity politics in America, and the rise of this malicious mental conditioning to take offense at every little thing, are direct results of Post-Modernists growing in power.

BTW, the right-wingers you're worried about will seem much less threatening if you study how Hitler rose to power. These losers are neo-Nazis, and the difference is important: all they offer is hate and rage, which really isn't very compelling. The actual Nazis had far more mainstream appeal as they rose to power, selling order and stability in a very chaotic Germany, and amped up the hate and rage mostly after they had power. I.e., the current losers are missing any bait and offer only hook. (Let's hope their never smart enough to figure that out).

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[fafalone]

Abolishing due process, limiting free speech, and overt retaliatory discrimination aren't progress, and that's what 'progressives' stand for.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[david_thornley]

Abolishing due process? I see that a lot with "law and order" types.

Limiting free speech? People all over the political spectrum want to limit it. They just differ in what speech to limit.

Overt retaliatory discrimination? You mean like pretending Christians are persecuted in this country, and trying to make them more equal than other religions?

There's idiots all over the political spectrum, but you only seem to see one kind. I wonder why.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[david_thornley]

Communism wasn't trying to tear down people's beliefs in things other than the state (it was generally anti-religion), and the idea was to get people in one class so everybody was part of the same group. Communism (and Socialism in general) tended to want to eliminate identity politics by having people share the same identity. I've seen very little in the way of post-modernism as you describe, and it's easy to ignore.

The rise of identity politics in America was on racial lines. White males were on top, white females should be subservient, blacks were inferior, and the natives were to be genocided. It's been around ever since. The only reason you don't perceive it is that the people you identify with were on top. Currently, there are various identities, and the old white male Christian supremacy is challenged, so some white male Christians have to attack the changing situation. Taking offense at little things is the reverse of carelessly insulting and disrespecting people. There are also too few post-modernists that fit your description to enforce any of that.

I have studied Hitler's rise to power, and I'm worried. Trump certainly isn't Hitler, but a lot of his supporters look a lot like Hitler supporters in their mindset. The neo-Nazis, as you say, don't have the numbers or appeal to be successful, but the right wing as a whole has numbers, and seems to want to follow a fickle authoritarian leader and believe or disbelieve as he says. If the hard-core Trump supporters were under 10%, I wouldn't be worried.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[lgw]

You're talking about some ideal of Communism. I'm not. I'm talking about what Stalin and Mao actually did as part of murdering 160 million people between them The "lost generation" in China is a direct result of tearing down all belief systems other than the state, starting with encouraging everyone to kill their teachers (and, heck, just anyone with a degree).

The rise of identity politics in America was on racial lines.

Seems like you've bought into the post-modernist song and dance. It's not psychologically healthy, and it's not good for the country.

lot of his supporters look a lot like Hitler supporters in their mindset.

Do you mean the people who want a stable economy, clean factories, universal halth care, social security, and all the similar stuff the Nazis rose to power on? I don't think you do. I think you're talking about the hate agression that became the focus after Hitler took power, and murdered all the Nazi leaders who cared about all the early stuff. Do you see the difference?

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Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[david_thornley]

Communist regimes have always placed a lot of emphasis on the state in practice, but not just the state. Stalin, for example, appealed to patriotism.

If you would like to provide some evidence that white males staying dominant and favoring policies that support them is any less identity politics as another racial group trying to achieve equality, please do. Until then, it would appear that "identity politics" is politics based on racial or ethnic or religious groups that you don't approve of.

I mean the people who get their information from Party-approved lies, and who are willing to believe the wildest things about their Party's opponents. It was obvious to all that Trump was the biggest liar in the race. His supporters disregarded that. Trump appealed to his supporters by emotion and lying, promising people what they wanted far more flagrantly than other candidates. He didn't campaign on universal health care or social security (introduced by Otto von Bismarck, neither a Nazi nor any sort of socialist). His message was xenophobia and jobs, and that's quite reminiscent of Nazi propaganda.

Re: It promotes independence and self-sufficiency.

[Anonymous Coward]

"logic is a tool of the patriarchy" and "mathematics embodies Whiteness" are actual papers

And yet, Google can't seem to fine them. Interesting.

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