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Trump Administration Cracks Down On H-1B Visa Abuse (cnn.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from CNN Money: The Trump administration is cracking down on companies that get visas for foreign workers and farm them out to employers. Some staffing agencies seek hard-to-get H-1B visas for high-skilled workers, only to contract them out to other companies. There's nothing inherently illegal about contracting out visa recipients, but the workers are supposed to maintain a relationship with their employers, among other requirements. In some cases, outsourcing firms flood the system with applicants. The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services agency said in a new policy memo released Thursday it will require more information about H-1B workers' employment to ensure the workers are doing what they were hired for. Companies will have to provide specific work assignments, including dates and locations, to verify the "employer-employee" relationship between the company applying for an H-1B and its visa recipient.

H-1B visas are valid for three years and can be renewed for another three years. The USCIS says it may limit the length of the visa to shorter than three years based the information an employer provides. For example, if an employer can't prove the H-1B holder is "more likely than not" needed for the full three years, the government might issue the visa for fewer than three years. The memo also says the administration wants to prevent employee "benching." That's when firms bring on H-1B visa holders but don't give them work and don't pay them the required wages while they wait for jobs.

252 comments

  1. The orange one by Master5000 · · Score: 0, Troll

    doing something useful for once. No more useless indians taking jobs here.

    1. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      doing something useful for once. No more useless indians taking jobs here.

      The companies that do that only exist because bigger companies want them to exist. They provide a source for employees they can get rid of very quickly, should work be reduced or they simply don't work out. Basically a company can avoid layoffs by redefining some employees as contract workers, even though they work they same hours and do the same level of tasks as everyone else.

      I am an American and my first job was a contract engineer. It actually paid pretty good, better than now to be fair, though with less benefits, since your benefits depend on your contracting company, not the place you actually show up to. The only thing I particularly disliked about contracting was being first on the list when the company decides to shed staff. It was actually better in some other ways. None of those performance reviews and such.

      That all being said, I'm not a fan of H1Bs. I could see limiting them. It should also be the company that is using them doing the request, not an in between company. Finally, they should be of limited term. Perhaps a couple years, then you must apply for citizenship to remain, and you must complete the citizenship within say another two years to stay.

      In other words, I don't want productive members of our society being denied the same rights as everyone else. Also, I'd rather have people interested in becoming citizens, than those that are not.

      Of course while I'm asking for things that will never happen, I'd like to see health care and retirement unlinked from employment. There are details to work out there, but the only thing one should get from employment by default is a paycheck. We need to make it easier for workers to move jobs, since that increases worker leverage, a little bit at least.

    2. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      You realize that the risk of him standing up for the working class is exactly why you've been told to hate him.

    3. Re:The orange one by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      "Told" to hate him? You think there are marching orders for that? All the Republicans I know either hate him or dislike him while grudgingly accepting him. But of course, I've heard a lot on the forums complain that they're all RINOs, including the vast majority of past Republican leadership (even Reagan would be called a RINO these days if he dared to snub Trump).

    4. Re:The orange one by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      You are clearly an expert on the Republicans. Do you have a newsletter we can subscribe to?

    5. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Told" to hate him? You think there are marching orders for that? ...

      Wanna see marching orders?

      I guess you've missed the scripted gun-grabber bullshit CNN has been shoveling for the past week or so.

      The FBI was told. The local cops were told. Apparently multiple local deputies WERE FUCKING THERE AND DID NOTHING.

      And CNN spews that the solution is to take guns away from everyone?

      Talk about marching orders telling people how to NOT think. Straight from George Soros, no doubt.

    6. Re:The orange one by bigwheel · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Exactly. Even the Bushes were vocal opponents of Trump.

      The problem isn't a democrat vs republican issue. It is a battle of "deep state" vs an outsider. The outsider must be stopped at all costs. The worst thing that can happen is that the outsider is successful. Every democrat and half of the republicans would rather have the country fail, than to have an outsider succeed.

      >> "Told" to hate him? You think there are marching orders for that? >>
      It depends on what you call "marching orders". But with 90% of news coverage being negative (citations provided via DuckDuckGo), it is easy to reinforce your hatred, overlook everything else, and discount anything positive as a "far right wacko" news source. Conversely, if you are a Trump supporter, it gets easy to be disgusted with the mainstream media, and discount even the stories that have merit.

    7. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      "Told" to hate him? You think there are marching orders for that? All the Republicans I know either hate him or dislike him while grudgingly accepting him. But of course, I've heard a lot on the forums complain that they're all RINOs, including the vast majority of past Republican leadership (even Reagan would be called a RINO these days if he dared to snub Trump).

      I'm not sure where the told to hate him thread came from, but anyway, no one needed to tell me to hate Donald Trump. I did not hate Mitt Romney, nor John McCain, nor either Bush. I thought the second Bush used the attack as a poorly thought out excuse to invade Iraq, and I most certainly didn't want him reelected to a second term, though I briefly considered voting for him the first term. Either way, I sort of understood it, partially because I believe Saddam did try to go after his dad.

      John McCain's biggest issue was he wasn't really that much of a maverick, though he was certainly better than some. The biggest thing I didn't like about him was Sarah Palin. Sorry, she was just not qualified.

      Donald Trump is also not qualified, and appears to not really be making any effort to change that. That is not why I hate him though. I hate him for blowing through the democratic norms that keep our democracy solid. He attacks everything and everyone that he think has or might in the future attack him, regardless of the danger to our democracy.

      Fake news is a real thing, but by doing his best to gas light everyone into not even knowing what truth is anymore, and by discrediting all news sources that are not Trump propaganda, he damages our democracies in ways that are incalculable.

      The Russian attempts to change the outcome of the election were horrible. They were a declaration of a new type of war that is only beginning. As near as I can tell Putin hated Hillary for calling him what he was and he liked Trump for being the best available tool to cause his enemies to self destruct from within. I kind of expect Putin to do it. I do not approve of it and believe for the good of the world he should stop, but you cannot expect your enemies to care about such things.

      The reason I truly loath Trump and will never forgive him for his actions, is we were attacked, our democracy took some serious blows, and the guy who ended up in charge has basically done nothing. Actually it is worse than that. His attacks on the judiciary, the FBI, the legitimate press, and truth itself are the best ally Putin could ask for and none of that mentions all the damage he is doing elsewhere.

      I hope he is doing nothing purely out of self interest. It fits the Trump profile. The only other alternative is even worse. I just hope our democracy doesn't take so much damage that its self correcting abilities are compromised. Sure maybe someone better will get in next time, but will it be because of a rational understanding if his or her skill set or because they hate Trump and anyone is better than trump?

      I believe that kind of thing is partly how we got Trump in the first place, though I'd argue that people had a lot of help hating Hillary.

      Trump once asked what do you have to lose? I think we are seeing the answer to that now, though the bill may fall heaviest on the next generation.

    8. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So....what you are saying is there were a lot of good guys around with guns, but they couldn't, or wouldn't, stop the bad guy with a gun?

    9. Re:The orange one by lego_boy_aus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Speak for yourself. He try get rid of people like me who demonstrate the truth Hillary should have won but was instead defeated by Russians who installed TRUMP through election metal.

      And here is a perfect example of what has gone wrong with this site...A "Top Editor" who is unable to type a coherent message either:
      1) Because they lack the ability
      OR
      2) Because they are so partisan that they feel they have to post as quickly as possible in order to defend "their side" and so are unable to take the small amount of time to proof-read what they are posting.

      And sadly, based on the types of articles which seem to be appearing on this site, the "Editors" seem to be unable to take (or at the least present) an objective view on most controversial topics, instead pushing articles which favor their personal "side" of the arguments...Many of which also seem to be lacking the "tech" factor which this site used to be known for.

    10. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a Republican and all my Republican friends love President Trump. Either you don't have any Republican friends or the ones you do have lie to you to get you to shut up and go on with your ignorant ass.

    11. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not GP but yes the local (county) police were ordered to stand down, outside and to leave it to the school cop(s) inside and wait for backup. My father in law works in IT support for state police. There have been quite a few officers resign over this, we haven't heard the last of this yet I dont think.

    12. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Who were the "good guys with guns"?

      Those cowards cops hiding while kids were being murdered?

      Those weren't good guys.

    13. Re:The orange one by pots · · Score: 0

      Five Thirty Eight says he has an 80% approval rating among Republicans, it's likely that the people who you know are not representative.

    14. Re:The orange one by ArchieBunker · · Score: 2

      If there is a new story about Trump I look forward to reading it here a week later.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    15. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do. Pick it up at any convenience store. One or two ply.

    16. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Republicans biggest problem with Trump is that he is not a Republican. He is not a Democrat either. Trumps biggest contribution to the US is his willingness to say and do things that others have never had the balls to do. On the international stage the US has become the most predictable government on the planet. US adversaries know how to capitalize on that predictability. Trump has blown US predictability out of the water. And for those paying attention you can see that Trump's public statements regarding US foreign policy bares little resemblance to the actions actually taking place in the world. Trump has called out the Europeans for not meeting their NATO commitments. He has let China know that the existing trade policies need to be revisited. His over the top denunciation and threats towards NK have finally resulted in China enforcing the UN economic sanctions. He declared Jerusalem Israel's capital and ending US monetary support to basically told Israel's antagonists they have fucked around long enough and they should acknowledge they have lost the war against Israel and better make a deal before the finally end up losing everything. These actions are disruptive and at first glance appear to nonsensical and reckless but these actions serve as a slap upside the head of all the career politicians and diplomats whose past actions and policies have created the mess we are in. The US public needs to file a class action suit against the US Legislative branch for actions detrimental to the US citizenry. These guys never solve any damn problems but they sure as hell have created them. We need a malpractice statute that allows the removal of incompetent US politicians. Trump is bad but Congress is responsible for of every single problem the US faces internationally and domestically. Thy spend all their time deflecting everyone's attention by running investigations that deflect their culpability in the problems being faced today. Compare the powers of the Executive branch against the power's of the Legislative branch.

    17. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My company Laid off ~40 full time employees last week they laid off ZERO contractors. With 3 or 4 exceptions the contractors are H1B with fewer actual skills than the people were laid off. Oh, and they are bringing in new contractors next week.

    18. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen both sides of the coin.

      I've been in the company of some really skilled engineers who were here on some form of H1-B Visa and most of those people do apply for the green card lottery. Unfortunately, it's a really limited pool with a lot of people applying every year. These are the people we want to take from other countries.

      I've also seen the other side where contract companies are using H1B's to swap hard drives.

      It really isn't a surprise this coming and those worst offenders had a sit down meeting over a year ago. It's a little shitty they were basically given a grace period to keep pulling shenanigans. Meanwhile, everyone who depends and deserves on a via is scared shitless.

      They have been pretty vicious with applicants, but otherwise nothing has technically changed. This would be the first legal change and inline with the administrations messaging. I don't disagree with any of it, but they could have made their stance on valid/deserved visas a while ago.

    19. Re: The orange one by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Yes. Fox news and daily stormer have all that you need about GOP. As to Republicans, there are none left in the GOP.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    20. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, finally.

      Though I have a feeling this didn't come from Trump. It likely came at the behest of DHS and ICE.

      Like, it would be terribly embarrassing to send ICE into a business with "legal H1B" workers, and they're just working at McDonalds while their temp agency tries to find them a better job.

    21. Re:The orange one by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      And here is a perfect example of what has gone wrong with this site...A "Top Editor" who is unable to type a coherent message either:

      We've always had people unable to type coherent messages, ever since the beginning. And before that was usenet...

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    22. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how exactly did this "russian influence" actually prevent people from researching both major candidates on their own, and voting for which one they wanted in the office? Misinformed voting is not new. I could put down Adolf H. (R) and Joseph S. (D) as the candidates and people would still vote party without even researching the fact that both of these men have massive body counts and have been dead for 70 years.

    23. Re:The orange one by mr(super+top+editor) · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, lego boy, we are dealing with him. He won't be around much longer.

    24. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not GP but yes the local (county) police were ordered to stand down, outside and to leave it to the school cop(s) inside and wait for backup. My father in law works in IT support for state police.

      Well shit, if an AC claims his father (in law) works in mother fracking IT, the AC must be in the know.
      After all, we int he IT community are ALWAYS the first to be consulted when the really important policy decisions are being made. Right... Right?

    25. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh shut up and GTFO. You're no longer welcome here you pathetic waste of space.

    26. Re:The orange one by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Seriously? You're a "Top Editor"? Maybe you should spend a little less time speculating why your candidate lost, because to date, there hasn't been a shred of evidence to back up your claim. Sure, they interfered, but again, that's not why she lost.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    27. Re:The orange one by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3

      You realize that isn't the real msmash, right? It's some troll who registered the name "msmash (Top Editor)".

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    28. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ssshhhh you can't use logic in these discussions, it causes a meltdown in the snowflake community.

    29. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've always had people unable to type coherent messages, ever since the beginning. And before that was usenet...

      I submit anything that APK has ever written as supporting evidence.

    30. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We still have APK, so some things never change.

    31. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. They want them for exactly one reason - cheap labor. Which they then use to suppress market wages. Without the H1B program almost everyone here would be banking considerably more cash and have dramatically few work related headaches.

    32. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That all being said, I'm not a fan of H1Bs. I could see limiting them. It should also be the company that is using them doing the request, not an in between company. Finally, they should be of limited term. Perhaps a couple years, then you must apply for citizenship to remain, and you must complete the citizenship within say another two years to stay.

      I agree that only those who direct hire H1Bs should have them as employees, and at the same time cannot contract them out (as contractors) somewhere else for more money for the company. That is the wrong way of H1Bs and is a very common misuse/abuse of H1Bs by many small head hunter companies.

      The rest of what you said are already in place. H1B allows a worker to be in the country for 3 years. The worker can renew H1B one more time for another 3 years. If the worker, while holding the H1B, does not file for a green card application, the worker can stay at most 6 years and no more in the country. Then the worker has to leave the country for at least 1 year before become eligible to file for another H1B again (another 6-year max).

    33. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? It is unbelievable and almost always we cut the contrators. Have seen it happening over and over again for several years. Only time employees get cut if they are lazy, arrogant, outdated and donâ(TM)t want to gain new skills. That is the whole point, to have employees take long term burden and make contractors slog and build things in short time and be rolled off. Only time contractors remain for long term is on support programs and provided employees suffer from above shortcomings.

    34. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been in the company of some really skilled engineers who were here on some form of H1-B Visa and most of those people do apply for the green card lottery. Unfortunately, it's a really limited pool with a lot of people applying every year. These are the people we want to take from other countries.

      You are misunderstanding between DV lotter and green card sponsorship. The DV lottery can be applied by anyone who lives anywhere in the world. The green card sponsorship has to be initiated/sponsored by an employer. The parent seems to be talking about the latter.

    35. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep ... FOX can ram it right up yo nibberizing Trotsky azzwhole. Hope it hurts, palsy.

    36. Re:The orange one by hambone142 · · Score: 1

      The problem is, the companies will just outsource jobs to cheap labor countries vs. bring the cheap labor to the U.S.

      Hewlett Packard (what once was) and IBM at one time had more employees in India than the U.S.

      I don't like the "H1-B" excuse either. It's a lie (no technically trained counterparts in the U.S.).

      It's simply a way to cheapen labor costs and eliminate giving benefits.

    37. Re:The orange one by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Exactly, H1B visas are used to hire and fire at will. Essentially, it is a way for upper management to have one less responsibility while maximizing bonuses.

    38. Re:The orange one by naris · · Score: 1

      Even a broken politician get something right once in a while //or was that a broken watch?

    39. Re:The orange one by naris · · Score: 1

      doh! I don't agree with the "useless Indians part"

    40. Re: The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, surest signs of how far right the GOP is today, is that you call everybody communist that is not a part of your NAZI party.
      Heil fuhrer Trump.

    41. Re:The orange one by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I agree with your comment about "Top Editor". Regarding Hillary's loss, that can be attributed to a lot of things, including Russian meddling, Comey's public statements, and the misinformation campaign by the alt-right such as Fox News and Alex Jones which dove-tailed so nicely with the Russian meddling we know about. That still doesn't take away from the fact that she lost to just about the worst candidate the Republicans could have put against her. Then again, she was a terrible candidate herself who likely would have been easily beaten by Bush, Kasich, Rubio or any number of the other 16 Republican field.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    42. Re: The orange one by kenh · · Score: 1

      Interesting to note you blamed the Russians, Comey, Fox News, Alt-rightneo-no's, etc, then only at the end of you comment you toss in the 'ohh yeah, she was a sucktacular candidate that would have lost to any of the 16 candidate Trump beat in the 2016 election.'

      Bottom line, bad retail politician, no clear message, a new and unique way to manage her campaign- that's why she lost to a candidate nearly as bad as her.

      The superdelegates put her on the ballot, her shoddy campaign cost her the election, but yeah 'Comey, Fox News, Russians, etc.'

      --
      Ken
    43. Re: The orange one by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Interesting to note you blamed the Russians, Comey, Fox News, Alt-rightneo-no's, etc, then only at the end of you comment you toss in the 'ohh yeah, she was a sucktacular candidate that would have lost to any of the 16 candidate Trump beat in the 2016 election.'

      Bottom line, bad retail politician, no clear message, a new and unique way to manage her campaign- that's why she lost to a candidate nearly as bad as her.

      whoosh. Trump was by far a worse candidate, and still is by any objective measure. He was and is divisive, myopical, small-minded, unread, and arguably of relatively low intelligence compared to the common man. Before you say "but but but ... success" realize that Al Capone made tons of money and had fame, but made it by cunning and zero morals combined with having a large enough band of followers to beat everyone else into submission.

      The superdelegates put her on the ballot, her shoddy campaign cost her the election, but yeah 'Comey, Fox News, Russians, etc.'

      Yes, the super delegates made Bernie's campaign likely for naught, but it was her "buying" of the DNC that really clinched her "nomination".

      It appears that Russian meddling gave Trump the Republican nomination by helping to stir up the base with complementary divisive campaigns and continued through to the national election.

      For the national election, first you had the aura of Trump and company's (including Fox News) calls to lock her up among other things that actually border on libel and slander, and certainly mark a new low in American politics. Follow that with the Comey announcement to reopen the email investigation which actually was, to quote the alt-right, a "nothing-burger" but had a measurable negative effect on Clinton's standing in the polls coupled with Trump's extremely slim margins in enough states to swing the EC, and yes, Comey comes out as the straw that broke the camel's back.

      I'm merely being fair and objective in my observations, I disliked both candidates but I especially dislike the Republicans for putting me in a straight jacket with such an abhorrent unqualified candidate, who proves daily how unsuited he is to even deciding what color socks to wear and telling you about them.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    44. Re: The orange one by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Trump was by far a worse candidate, and still is by any objective measure.

      Unless you count the actual objective measure of winning? If he's good at anything, it's getting media attention, and they fell whole hog for him.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    45. Re:The orange one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A perfect example of what has gone wrong with this site...

    46. Re: The orange one by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Trump was by far a worse candidate, and still is by any objective measure.

      Unless you count the actual objective measure of winning? If he's good at anything, it's getting media attention, and they fell whole hog for him.

      I think we all lost. To correct your last statement, the people as a whole did fall whole hog for him. He "won" with the largest negative popular vote difference in history which in and of itself should spell the end of the EC.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  2. Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pay. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pay.

    Oh, and they like the 'loyalty' of a worker who is dependent on them to stay in the country.

  3. Great! by richman555 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A step in the right direction.... it has to continue until H1Bs are reduced and the American jobs and salaries increase.

    1. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      From what I've seen, they don't decrease our salaries since they're so useless. I've probably worked with over 250 of them in the 32 years I've worked in the tech industry in Seattle, and not a one was useful to be productive instead of a time suck.

    2. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are currently at what is generally considered "full" employment, and companies are having a difficult time finding skilled employees. Job openings are at record levels, often remaining unfilled. The H1B is a commonsense program to help alleviate that problem, just as extended unemployment benefits were a way to help alleviate the opposite problem 10 years ago. We should be expanding this program, not shackling it with more burdensome regulations.

    3. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way to solve the problem is for companies to step up and offer some scholarships to students that fit the needs they are looking for and bring them on as interns for some apprenticeship training as well.

    4. Re:Great! by anegg · · Score: 1

      But - I keep hearing that American workers haven't had a "real" pay increase in a decade or more, and that the minimum wage is too low (not a "living" wage). The principles of supply and demand would seem to dictate that the US not bring in external workers to increase the supply of workers (and thus prevent wages from rising as demand for workers outstrips the supply). It certainly won't work to keep bringing in external workers and just legislate that business should pay employees more, will it?

    5. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thank you for that statistically significant anecdote.

      Allow me to offer a counter example:

      A friend recently forwarded me a job listing for an engineering position in California. The job requires a college degree and multiple years of experience. It was a contract job and the rate was $21.50/hour. The firm that would hire is full of Indians.

      There's no God damned way you can convince me that $21.50 is a reasonable rate for the kind of work requested. Newly-graduated engineering or CS students average between $65,000 and $75,000 per year, which is at least $30/hour and that's not counting the cost of benefits.

      It is very clear that the job listing was fishing for either an illegal alien, a truly desperate U.S. citizen with the requisite skill set, or it was a perfunctory job search with a ridiculous wage so that an already-chosen H-1B worker could be hired.

    6. Re:Great! by richman555 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I completely disagree. When I had to look for a new job a few years back I found that most all jobs are contract jobs for which you need to compete (and suffer) with Indian H1B workers who will work for less and many times without benefits. Rates are pretty much fixed between the employer and contracting company so that you essentially lose PTO, company provided healthcare options, 401k matching, Stock benefits etc. Also consider the H1B visa holder is beholden to the company that sponsors them and must pretty much do anything they want or need. I found that the market is absolutely flooded with H1Bs and its saturated. So now that contracted positions have become the 'new normal' (just check the job boards such as Indeed etc), American technology workers are thrown into the same churn of contracting jobs along with H1Bs. Your best and only hope is to be picked up as a full time employee (as some time of the companies choosing). 'Contract to hire' means pretty much nothing as well as companies don't really need to oblige. Also the normal tactic of most companies is to hire you full time for a salary minus any costs of PTO, Health Benefits, and 401k. This is where salary negotiation essentially falls apart. Overall, this is a crusher to the American technology worker. I know one would argue the cream will rise to the top, etc etc... but its about money. There is no cream rising anywhere for these companies. The American worker is pretty much screwed with few alternatives here. The H1B visa holder at least can go back to their country and have made a good bit of money relative to their currencies and obtain higher statuses. If were were to go crazy and not cap the H1B, I believe technology work in the US would cease for Americans. You would be better off looking at any other industry which pays benefits such as PTO, Health Benefits, and 401k to its employees. And recommending a Computer Science degree to young people? Forget it!!!

    7. Re: Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In most Western nations $65,000 to $75,000 would be an unusually high rate for a new graduate. Even in a European capital city, with several years of experience, the typical wage is lower. If the firm hiring was a European one expanding into the USA it might be offering closer to its European wage rates to see if the positions can be filled at those rates (although it is likely to be disappointed).

    8. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are workers fungible?

    9. Re:Great! by Gibgezr · · Score: 1

      Depends. Places that pay 15$/hr think so. McDonald's thinks so. A lot of businesses think so. Some employers don't, though; some care very much about getting the right employees, and don't believe they can be easily replaced.

      My wife is a Federal employee now, and her workplace is having an awful time keeping people, because their contract supports the "fungibility" of the employees; they can apply for a transfer to anywhere in Canada shortly after starting work. So, the new local shop needs hundreds of employees really fast (a payroll center serving the entire country got opened up here), and people from all over Canada applied for the positions, then, when they GET the position, they immediately ask to transfer back home, which they get because workers already in the system get preference over hiring someone from outside the system. The end result is they can't keep people here, so they had to start offering limited employment contracts instead of immediately offering permanent positions.

    10. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you got an H1B worker handling the paragraphs in your posts?

    11. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have worked with two who were REALLY good.

      Let me focus on the experience of the one who I know well. You come on an H1B and you cannot leave your employer without great difficulty. So you get paid less than everyone else. If that company downsizes or goes out of business or gets acquired you have a mad scramble to find another business which will hire you as an H1B. When you do this, the clock on your green card status application essentially restarts. So your indentured situation period starts over. The people who hire you in your mad scramble time are likely to offer you, again, as little as they think they can get away with because they know you're in a position of weakness. In general, when we talk about sharks trolling this pool we're not talking about stable companies. So this experience can repeat multiple times. You can be chasing a green card for a decade while working as a second class person. And while you probably think "anyone good could just get hired by a good company", doing so resets the clock. So even very good people have a great incentive to just put up with the status quo.

      H1B needs reform. If we manage the system so that it works better for the workers who get the H1Bs, it will work better for those without them.
          1. Workers would be paid a truly competitive wage.
          2. The government would get a spiff.
          3. Only top performers would then get hired.
          4. Dismissed H1Bs should return to their countries with an exit bonus (banked in escrow on hiring day) -- returners would be able to communicate their American workplace knowledge and help people in the original country profit from the experience, and hiring would be more careful because of this.
          5. The clock should never restart, so H1Bs can always leave to go to a better gig. This means employers have to pay them enough to keep them. (Any new employer would have to buy the escrow bonus.)

      This would get us what we really want: The best people. Companies would not hire seat fillers because it would be expensive. H1Bs would not affect salaries for citizens in a downward way. People we bring over to work would not be exploited.

    12. Re:Great! by ghoul · · Score: 1

      That is bull. Many contracting companies provide PTOs, vacations, health insurance, life insurance, 401K match. You cannot brand the entire section of the industry because of a few bad apples.
      The bad apples have got a chance to flourish because of H1 caps. Because of the lottery the H1 itself is valuable so an employee has to stick with a bad apple company. Take away the visa cap. Let anybody get an H1 anytime of the year and H1s will only work for companies providing all of the benefits you mentioned.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    13. Re: Great! by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Dear Anonymous Coward,

      In most Western nations, you also get free health care and numerous other free benefits. Often, reside in a denser population setting, so that urban mass transit can be effective. (U.S. population density is very moderate.) On top of that, many Western nations offer free or reduced college.

      So a recent American, needs to pay for ALL the items you in your Western European county has to pay for. They then need to pay $5K-$10K for health care, few hundred dollars a month toward transportation to and from work, and often several hundred dollars a month in student loans.

      So that $65K you're griping about, probably provides less discretionable purchasing power than what you're new grads are receiving.

    14. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know one would argue the cream will rise to the top, etc etc...

      I don't know if you've ever looked at a pond in spring - there are definitely stuff rising to the top, but it doesn't look like cream to me. It is called pond scum, it blots out the light for everything else in the water and it turns the whole pond into a stinking mess. Now there's a metaphor that works, I think.

      All the things you list are the result of allowing big money, religious church-businesses and other organised crime to take over your minds and culture, even to the point where many Americans seem to speak a different language, at least when it comes to the meaning of several common words, like 'liberal', 'socialism', 'capitalism', 'freedom', 'truth', 'faith' and many, many more.

    15. Re: Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A typical new graduate in London gets gross pay of around £30,000, or about $42,000. Take home would be about £1800 per month, or about $2400. You'd maybe find a room in shared house for about $500, and mass transport about the same. Optimistically, food, utilities, council tax, about $500

  4. But no crackdown on H2-B visas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Apparently those are still urgently needed by important US businesses.

  5. More please by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 1

    No come on...go the distance and make all of these an open auction. Probably requires legislative changes for that though...

  6. Good plan, not a reduction it seems by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

    I don't have much opinion on increasing or decreasing the numbers, but this will just eliminate the abuse of the system where a corporation can essentially run a slave temp agency. I like it.

    1. Re:Good plan, not a reduction it seems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Like Infosys. I worked for them for 23 months in Bellevue, WA, and out of the H-1B visa holders I worked with, only a couple were good. Infosys worked those two like hell while most of their employees just took up space. I worked for most of that time out of a customer's office a block away, and literally none of the at one point 15 people I worked with did a single thing despite billing the American company from what I heard $15k per day.

      Infosys is just importing unqualified bodies to bilk their customers out of money.

    2. Re:Good plan, not a reduction it seems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This too will be gamed. If they can't bench them here in the states, they'll bench them in their home countries and fly them in when needed.

    3. Re:Good plan, not a reduction it seems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is at least 'honest' scamming. Many of the H1B contract shops will bring Indians over and give them 3-6 months to find a job on their H-1B. Either way, they are paying off their commission. No job, they get kicked back and another Indian takes the H-1B spot.

  7. When will the crack down on cheap workers start by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seems to me there are a lot of places that cheat the system, post jobs for 1 day in obscure places, so they can hire foreign workers at depressed wages. I think the Administration should crack down on those. They would not have to reach far, as Mar-A-Lago is a prime example of such abuse.

    I had "domestic workers" in the subject to begin with, housekeepers and such for hotels, but then it gets confused with domestic and foreign.

  8. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    it's a hot topic for the mid-terms. 'claiming' to clamp down, when trump himself has abused them, and the gop's wealthy donors abuse them.. it's all talk. they won't actually do anything.

    and.. it is a smoke screen to try to dilute the current 'gun control' debate... again, because mid-terms.

    gop is circling the wagons... they're ducking and covering...

    just wait til they get desperate, see the blackness staring at them, and start passing more shit legislation, like the billion dollar tax cuts for the wealthy, before their time is up... and it *will be up*.

    they aren't done fucking-over the american people. not by a long shot.

  9. Your Argument by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Informative

    So just to be clear, your argument is that we should do what Obama did - nothing - and let companies not only abuse undocumented workers, but continue to abuse the H1-B system too?

    Or did you just want to bitch about Trump by bringing up some unsubstantiated tabloid rumor that is about what some guy 20 levels below Trump did in the hiring for some demolition project?

    As you are an Obama supporter, I can understand your position would be to bitch about everything and do absolutely nothing to curb abuses by business. I just can't understand the logic in such a position.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Your Argument by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0, Troll

      So just to be clear, your argument is that we should do what Obama did - nothing - and let companies not only abuse undocumented workers, but continue to abuse the H1-B system too?

      No, my argument is that we should just follow the example of our beloved President and just straight-up hire illegal immigrants and pay them $4/hr.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Your Argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Extremists only use logic when it seems to confirm their forgone conclusions.

      People who actually use logic to form their conclusions are called "moderates."

    3. Re:Your Argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So just to be clear, your argument is that we should do what Obama did - nothing - and let companies not only abuse undocumented workers, but continue to abuse the H1-B system too?

      No, my argument is that we should just follow the example of our beloved President and just straight-up hire illegal immigrants and pay them $4/hr.

      There's something to be said about the phrase "don't hate the player, hate the game". If you're competing with companies that do the same thing then it's stupid (from a business and continued profits standpoint) for you to limit yourself to some arbitrary self-imposed rules that no one is obliged to comply with. And now we have someone trying to change the rules he disagrees with after "winning" the game. I can see no fault with that, assuming that the changes are things that the majority of people agree with it, which is definitely the case with /. and H1-B visas.

    4. Re:Your Argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What could Obama do when Congress was filled with Republican obstructionists. If Congress had been Democratic, maybe more good would have been done.

    5. Re:Your Argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DemoRat titsuckers do good ? More nibberizing civil rights/anti-gun laws ?? More burquazz ? Come and get yours, palsy it's waiting ...

    6. Re:Your Argument by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Didn't he claim to have a pen and know how to use it? He didn't seem to have a problem writing laws with his DACA orders.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    7. Re:Your Argument by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      H-1B reform is about the only thing Trump has done or is doing that I really like.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  10. Not getting his cut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Trump is up to his armpits in screwing with American citizenship and employment rights with birth tourism.

    * http://theweek.com/speedreads/748344/russian-birth-tourists-are-flocking-miami-trump-condos-give-birth-american-citizens

    That's right: his wealthy Russian friends are bringing their pregnant trophy wives to pop out the next generation of Russian oligarchs on US soil in Trump's lovely birthing condominiums.

  11. Re: Indians need to do the needful and by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody ever tried to get rid of cockroaches that way. Wonder if that will work.

  12. He can start with the H1-Bs at Mar-a-lago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sure if he paid a decent wage he'd have no trouble at all hiring all the staff he needs from the high quality American workforce.

    And even though they're not H1-Bs, he can send Melania's parents home, since he's real big on ending Chain Migration too.

    And after that he can send Melania back to Bosnia; she overstayed her visa, illegally. No statute of limitations and all that. What, you think just because she's married to the president that she's above the law? We settled that with Nixon – nobody is above the law.

    Once Melania's gone he can bring back Stormy Daniels for round two in the Lincoln bedroom. Maybe she can wear a blue dress just for the irony factor.

    1. Re: He can start with the H1-Bs at Mar-a-lago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slovenia is not Bosnia. They had wars.

  13. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by Solandri · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The problem with blaming employers for hiring illegal (undocumented*) immigrants is that the U.S. government makes it impossible to actually verify if a potential hiree is in fact authorized to work in the U.S. I used to manage a company which was in an area with a known large illegal immigrant population, so I spoke with several immigration attorneys about this and how to avoid accidentally hiring someone who wasn't authorized to work in the U.S.

    Their legal advice was all the same: Fill out the I-9 form for everyone we hired, and make photocopies of the two pieces of official documentation presented as proof of work eligibility. The government provides no way to confirm that these documents are legit, so the I-9 and photocopies become proof that we did our due diligence, and shields us from prosecution for hiring unauthorized workers.

    In other words, the way the system is currently set up, having illegal immigrants on your payroll is not proof of wrongdoing by the employer. If the employee presented what seemed to be proper work documents at the time of their hiring, the employer has done nothing wrong by hiring them. And in fact the employer can be sued if they deny employment to anyone because they suspect the documentation was forged, and it turns out to be legit. Basically the employer has no choice but to accept without proof that any provided documentation is legit.

    If you really want to stop illegal immigrants* from being hired, the government simply has to set up a system where the authenticity of work documents can be confirmed by employers prior to hiring someone. Most of the people we later found to have presented forged docs were woefully easy to spot - the name didn't match the SSN, or the last known residence didn't match the SSN. Oddly, the people who are most likely to blame employers for hiring illegal immigrants are also the ones most vehemently opposed to this type of system to easily authenticate work documents.

    * This is why the term "undocumented immigrant" is a misnomer - there is no way for an employer to distinguish a documented immigrant, from an undocumented immigrant who is doing everything in their power to fool you into thinking they are documented. The only definitions which work are:
    • Illegal immigrant - someone who is in the country illegally and uses forged documents to trick an employer into hiring them.
    • Undocumented immigrant - someone an employer hired without properly checking their work documentation.
  14. No CRUMBS for you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nancy Palsi would be proud. Or should be, anyway.

    Oh wait. No she wouldn't. Nancy Palsi and Democrats think CRUMBS aren't for Americans.

    1. Re:No CRUMBS for you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ivan can't even spell Pelosi's name correctly.

      Go to bed Ivan, it's late in Russia. And nobody is going to pay stupid Ivan for shilling as badly as this.

  15. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0, Troll

    The problem with blaming employers for hiring illegal (undocumented*) immigrants is that the U.S. government makes it impossible to actually verify if a potential hiree is in fact authorized to work in the U.S.

    Yeah sure. That's the problem. When Trump was hiring illegals and paying them $4/hour he had no way of possibly knowing if they were here legally or not. The fact that they were willing to work for $4/hour and spoke no English wasn't any kind of clue.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  16. Check Intel and Nike in Oregon, 30% guest visas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Intel in Hillsboro and Nike in Beaverton abuses H-1B visa program by contracting out to "H-1B sub contractors".

  17. This will certainly have loopholes by ErichTheRed · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Companies are addicted to cheap outsourced labor...there's no way this wasn't drafted without consulting them first. It sounds like the sponsoring companies are just going to have to jump through another hoop to show that there's still a relationship with the company. And you can bet there is...Tata, Infosys and the like use their H-1B slots to move people on-site to their customers. These people either do the work that absolutely can't be done offshore or are interfaces between what's left of the on-site team and the offshore IT farm.

    Immigration law is full of all sorts of exceptions and gray areas, and I'm sure a lot of those were purchased by lobbyists. So, while it appears to be a good step in the right direction, it's not an outright ban and probably won't make much difference.

    1. Re:This will certainly have loopholes by ghoul · · Score: 1

      Making it tougher to have H1s will mean entire industries will move offshore or nearshore. Many companies like Apple and Google are setting up Canada centers as their vendors TCS, Infosys etc have complained they are not being able to staff in the US. The companies are dependent on the vendors for the backend work so they will play nice with the vendors. A number of Apple employees have been offered bonuses to move offshore to continue to supervise the vendor teams.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    2. Re:This will certainly have loopholes by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Are you actually claiming that Trump's administration would attempt to make things easy for a foreign company like Tata? Dude, I don't think you've been paying attention.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    3. Re:This will certainly have loopholes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sure they will. what will actually happen is there will be a lot of complaining, stomping of feet,, raising of prices (which they would do anyway, because hey, profit!) and then finally, acceptance. zero industries of merit will actually leave.

  18. There's always a loophole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'll just take the diversity angle

  19. Oh, this should be good ... by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh, this should be good ... someone finally does something about H1Bs and .. it's Trump!

    Slashbot heads will explode like 60s scifi robots caught in a contradiction ... "must hate Trump ... but H1Bs ... but must hate Trump ... " Ah, this is awesome.

    1. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is making tough to get the H1B and relaxing rules to let them stay in this country forever. Over all it is a real loss for american jobs ...

      Check our #HR392
      https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/392

    2. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most people are aware that a stopped clock is right twice a day. It remains to be seen however how actually worthwhile happens out of this. Which is why there's a note of cautious approval in the thread.

      Slashbot heads will explode like 60s scifi robots caught in a contradiction ... "must hate Trump ... but H1Bs ... but must hate Trump ... " Ah, this is awesome.

      Except that didn't happen.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

      Admitting that Trump is a stopped clock which is right twice a day is a huge step forward. I mean, gargantuan. You mean Hitler is right twice a day?

      Anne Frank's stepsister, in a January essay to mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day, accused Trump of "acting like another Hitler."

      Christine Todd Whitman: Donald Trump Muslim comments like Hitler's But Trump's most recent comments have drawn comparisons to Hitler, including a front page Tuesday on the Philadelphia Daily News showing Trump with his hand raised looking like a Nazi salute and the headline "The New Furor."

      5 Ways Donald Trump Perfectly Mirrors Hitler's Rise To Power

      The theory of political leadership that Donald Trump shares with Adolf Hitler

      'Insane bigot' Donald Trump 'is Hitler' - sex offender Louis CK

      Yale history professor: Here's why it's useful to compare Trump's actions to Hitler's

      After Trump asked people at his rallies to raise their hands to swear to vote for him, the press compared it to the "Heil Hitler" salute from Nazi Germany.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    4. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by chihowa · · Score: 1

      That sounds like an ideal way to wind it down. H1B as indentured servitude, followed by deportation is what made it so heinous. Nobody involved had any interest in the US or the US economy.

      If they stay in the country forever, then they effectively become Americans and gain an interest in the wellbeing of the country. Also, they then need to actually live in the US long-term, which means that they need a salary that matches the cost of living here.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    5. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by ghoul · · Score: 1

      How do you define long term? The indentured white laborers brought on the early colony ships were indentured for a term of 7 years and after that they were citizens. Nowadays the GC process has been so restricted for Indians even if they apply the first year they come to the US it can still take 10 years (H! is 6 years but if a GC petition is pending H1 can be extended in 1 yr increments till GC comes through) to get a GC and 5 more to become a citizen. 15 years is pretty much a big chunk of your adult working life. If after 15 years in the US people are not considered Americans than the ancestors of most Americans would not be considered Americans by that benchmark.
      The problem with both H1 and illegal immigration is that the legal immigration route has been artificially choked to prevent non whites from coming in large numbers. if the same rules were followed as were followed for European immigrants , the west coast would be Asian Majority, after all China is a lot closer to California than Germany is to California. Its an anomaly that most Californians are Germans not Chinese.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    6. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Godwin's Law says we can ignore your entire message because you just forfeited the debate. Get better arguments.

    7. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by boomvang27 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but when is Trump going to *also* crackdown on H2-B visas, the visas that he abuses to keep from having to pay a decent wage at his hotels and resorts?

    8. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      You don't know history. What made Hitler possible is the circumstances. He was a bitter broken soldier speaking to millions of bitter broken soldiers like himself in a cripple of a country that had just been humiliated in a war they had lost and which they could not pay for.

      Even a Hitler at another time in German history could not be Hitler, let alone a playboy billionaire businessman at this time in the United States, the richest and the most well armed nation in the history.

    9. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I can say some nice things about Hitler, too. He was good to his dog, and his WWI service was quite creditable.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    10. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, we were looking for the same sort of contradiction explosions when Trump's FCC killed net neutrality.

    11. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      ....aaaand now you're a nazi. How about we send links of this statement to your employer, wife, and all your friends?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    12. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Suit yourself. My wife and friends already know I'm a history buff with my own opinions on things. I don't think my employer cares, as long as I don't identify myself with them.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    13. Re:Oh, this should be good ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, this should be good ... someone finally does something about H1Bs and .. it's Trump!

      Slashbot heads will explode like 60s scifi robots caught in a contradiction ... "must hate Trump ... but H1Bs ... but must hate Trump ... " Ah, this is awesome.

      To be fair to Trump (I hate saying this) but it was part of his campaign to look at H1B visas. I recall some mention of changing the rules so that the visa is owned by the applicant and not the company but that was just one of the things mentioned at the time.

  20. Hurrah! by skam240 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hurrah, the Trump administration does something I support!

    I would call my self a liberal who is highly sympathetic to fiscal conservatism (the later being how I was raised). My dream of a 100% Republican controlled government would be that they would run the numbers and cull less productive government programs. Sadly, Republican's have abandoned the one platform I've always respected them for, the debt. It bothers me that this is the very best our "conservative" government has been able to bring us.

    American social conservatives empower these people who just shovel more and more wealth towards out affluent, all the while they bankrupt our government.

    --
    I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    1. Re:Hurrah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would call my self a liberal who is highly sympathetic to fiscal conservatism...
      ...I've always respected [Republicans] for, the debt.

      What planet do you live on where the Republicans did anything good wrt debt?

      Maybe you should go look at which party was in control – during the last 25 years – when debt was paid down. And which party was in control – during that same 25 years – when record deficits were run up.

      I won't presume to tell you; you go look it up for yourself. Do yourself and the rest of us a favor and don't go to Faux News for your facts. Maybe a source that's not biased. Might I suggest, e.g. the OMB. They have a pretty good track record for being unbiased. Do come back and share your findings. Also tell us what flavor of Kool-Aid you've been drinking up to now.

      American social conservatives empower these people who just shovel more and more wealth towards out affluent,

      Well, at least you got that part right.

    2. Re:Hurrah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude, the guys said as plain as day: "Sadly, Republican's have abandoned the one platform I've always respected them for, the debt." So he gets it. The GOP have failed him.

      That was my one hope too for this GOP fiasco, that they would stick to their guns and just start slicing down spending. Entitlements, defense, the whole deal. Instead they bitched a little about planned parenthood, then blew up the deficit with that massive tax cut, and then just said eff it and increased spending on top of it. WTF...?!? I don't know how anyone who calls themselves a conservative can be in favor of the GOP at this point. Yet at CPAC they are falling over themselves to kiss Trumps ass and Paul Ryan still tries to keep a serious face.

    3. Re:Hurrah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fail. I told you not to use Faux News as your source.Go back and try again. This time use an unbiased source. (One that, I dare say, doesn't fit your narrative.)

    4. Re:Hurrah! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm going to say he lived on Earth before 1980, which is when the Republicans became the borrow-and-spend party.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    5. Re:Hurrah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, that's borrow-tax-cut-and-spend

    6. Re:Hurrah! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm not arguing with that.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  21. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The only definitions which work are:

            Illegal immigrant - someone who is in the country illegally and uses forged documents to trick an employer into hiring them.
            Undocumented immigrant - someone an employer hired without properly checking their work documentation.

    There is really no need for all of these euphemisms like "undocumented immigrant." The term "illegal alien" works just fine.

    Another unnecessary term is "dreamer" which apparently means an illegal alien who had entered the country as a minor.

  22. The Coronation of Queen Hillary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    > ... the truth Hillary should have won ...

    Still having blue episodes for missing out on Queen Hillary's coronation ceremony?

  23. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > The government provides no way to confirm that these documents are legit, so the I-9 and photocopies become proof that we did our due diligence, and shields us from prosecution for hiring unauthorized workers.

    There is such a system. It's called E-verify.
    https://www.uscis.gov/e-verify

    It has been around for years, and it is audited.

  24. Here's why. by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    The purpose of this is so that Trump can sell the favor of selective enforcement by not cracking down on H1Bs at companies that support him

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  25. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by naughtynaughty · · Score: 4, Informative

    There is a system, it is called E-Verify

    https://www.uscis.gov/e-verify

  26. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with blaming employers for hiring illegal (undocumented*) immigrants is that the U.S. government makes it impossible to actually verify if a potential hiree is in fact authorized to work in the U.S.

    So what you're saying is that you're ignorant? E-Verify has had you covered for years.

  27. 20,000 reserved for advanced degrees by edi_guy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Watch out for Infosys to start buying Univ of Phoenix PhD's for their contractors. SAP implementation? Sure we have 6 Astrophysicists that can customize those idocs for you.

    1. Re:20,000 reserved for advanced degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been getting a lot of calls and emails from Indian body shops lately. The H1B shortage would explain it. Any other Slashdotters getting an uptick?

    2. Re:20,000 reserved for advanced degrees by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Infosys is staffing their new Indianapolis center with US citizens making decent money.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  28. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Illegal alien, n. A term used by descendants of European invaders to deride descendants of native inhabitants while ignoring the two centuries of imperialism the U.S. has inflicted upon the rest of the hemisphere.

    Fascinating, but you forgot to cite the source of your definition? The prominent online dictionary Merriam Webster defines it as:

    Definition of illegal alien: a foreign person who lives in a country without having official permission to live there

    The counterpart to this could be referred to as "legal alien," or "a foreign person who lives in a country with official permission to live there."

    You wanna let these people come across and work at a 7-11 without getting hassled, or do you want to pay trillions in restitution?

    This is a nuanced topic and the answer depends in part on your response to the following question: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

    Another crazy idea is for these people to go through the legal processes to obtain official permission to live in the country, like what the "legal aliens" have presumably already done.

  29. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How tiresome. Here's how to know whether someone is an illegal alien or not: Does he only speak Spanish and does not have the equivalent of a college education? If yes, the guy is an illegal and should be deported.

    Granted, the above only nabs uneducated Hispanic illegal aliens but, considering they are the vast majority of the illegal aliens in this country, it's a good start.

    Meanwhile, I was born in the U.S.; completed primary, college, and post-graduate school in the U.S.; and every job I have ever held required that I produce at least two documents that I am legally allowed to work in this country. These typically mean a birth certificate or U.S. passport, and a driver's license.

    Why is it so "hard" to filter out the illegal aliens in this country? Where I live, I could easily point out over 100 illegal aliens on any given weekday.

    The Republicans don't really want to get rid of illegal aliens because they're a source of cheap, exploitable labor. The Democrats don't want to get rid of illegal aliens because they vote Democrat. And, yes, illegal aliens vote in U.S. elections.

    Finally, neither Democrats nor Republicans have to live near the illegal aliens with heavy crime and third world conditions brought about by third world behaviors. The hoi polloi get to bear the burden of dealing (crime, Spanish in public schools, Spanish public services, etc. paid through taxes) with illegal aliens.

  30. Re:Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If the democrats are suck bleeding hearts why didn't they even talk about this problem when they had power prior to Trump?

  31. Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 4, Interesting

    On an issue by issue basis, polls have consistently supported positions he's also supported.

    What is more, if Trump policies are cited as Obama or Hillary policies, you find that many people that reflexively oppose Trump agree with the policies. This makes clear that the opposition is not to the actual policies but rather to the R after his name and his self presentation which rubs many people the wrong way.

    Again, those that find this an inconvenient observation will say it is opposition to policies that are immoral.

    Policies such as what and according to what clearly undefined moral code are we supposed to be judging him?

    Not supporting effectively open borders? Americans don't want that. There has been support for reducing immigration and making more strict the policies that allow existing immigration for well over 30 years.

    What about so called "free trade"? Its a farce and everyone knows it is a farce. Free trade was something the US pushed during the Cold War as an inducement to join the First World. It was one of the carrots to side with the West over the Russians. It has generally acted to grant foreign companies access to US markets with few questions asked or conditions required. Now that the Cold War is over, there is no justification for it anymore. It is not infinitely sustainable even if we saw infinite political utility for it. There is obvious damage to many American industries and communities to no particular value to our society besides some geopolitical buy in.

    What about government corruption? Here any faction that claims this isn't an issue of import is just lying. The last several years have been an endless embarrassing laundry list of corruption, conflicts of interest, nepotism, theft, incompetence, and dereliction of duty. This is actually starting to become an existential issue for the US government itself. If the government neither is doing the things it was created to do reliably nor has the confidence of the people to do those tasks then the role of the government in society collapses. This is how great empires die with some frequency. They hollow out... rot from within... and then one day... the shiny veneer that promised solidity and perfection collapses. Consensus exists that this should be taken seriously.

    What else? Gun policy? If the anti gun people had the votes they'd just go to constitutional convention rather than whining endlessly about restrictions and living constitutions etc. We've changed our constitution as recently as the 1980s. If you have the votes, you can change it. If you don't have the votes then all you can do is bitch. That the anti gun people are bitching makes it very clear they don't have the votes.

    On and on and on. The man is sitting at 50% approval right now.
    http://news.gallup.com/poll/11...

    Most presidents don't pull 50 percent. Naturally this is an average statistic from Gallup... we'll have to see what Trump pulls at the end of his term. But if he gets anywhere near 50 percent then he'll have gotten about as much approval from the public as the average president which is impressive considering the military grade invective thrown at the man.

    Lastly we get into this issue of his immorality. Well, according to what? What are the principles of this morality? Is it written down anywhere so we can examine it? Where does it come from? I'm not saying anything he does is or isn't moral because whatever his morality is will be subjective to whatever standard we're using. It is like judging if someone broke the law without citing which legal code the person is under. So where does this moral code come from? Because it sounds increasingly like the code of "you're a bad person because you disagree with my politics". And whilst I can understand that moral code, it is clearly not one that anyone outside that moral paradigm should take seriously.

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    1. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not mine. I do not oppose Trump policies with or without an R. I despise the person, as he is filthy inside and out. Just hear what comes out his mouth, and it easy to figure out what's inside.
       

    2. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On an issue by issue basis, polls have consistently supported positions he's also supported.

      Trump does not support many positions, other than very basic ones such as the position that Donald Trump is great. Trump simply makes up stuff on the fly, while complete ignoring what he said about the same topic an hour or two earlier.

    3. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It really depends how you phrase the question.

      https://youtu.be/G0ZZJXw4MTA

      If you ask "should the US have control of its borders?" then most people will agree with you. If you ask "should the US build a wall and aggressively deport children?" then you might get a different answer. Same on healthcare, people had been primed to hate Obamacare and agree with Trump, but when they see what he wants to replace it with they don't like that either.

      It's standard populist stuff. Promise what people want, but deliver what you want. Support for one does not imply support for the other.

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    4. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No one would suggest that country X doesn't have a right to control its borders and decide who enters and who doesn't.

      Unless that country is the US.

      I'll tell you what, I'll accept people from mexico on the same standard that Mexico will accept people from the US into Mexico.

      Think Mexico would be okay with Americans just crossing the Mexican border, shirking mexican immigration law, existing in the country illegally, getting deported over and over again only to return again, illegal American immigrants to Mexico demanding the rights of citizens, claiming that any attempt to enforce Mexican border law is racism... etc...

      The argument used against the US if applied to any other nation would be laughed or shouted out of the room by basically any country.

      That people actually presume to use the argument against the US is somewhere between mindless repetition of talking points and mendacious sophistry.

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    5. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      Only Rosie O'Donald.

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    6. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      That isn't a supportable position. He obviously has plank positions which are themes of his presidency and are repeated again and again and again and again. To suggest they're made up on the fly as he speaks without reference to those issues or the theme is simply not supportable.

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    7. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are comparing a averages to a single point (his maximum)? If this his the case, he is the worst ever based on the maximum.

      >On and on and on. The man is sitting at 50% approval right now.

    8. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      "We all agree on the need to better secure the border, and to punish employers who chose to hire illegal immigrants. We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected."

      Agree or disagree? Make up your mind and then click through to find the answer.

      "We are a nation of immigrants.. but we are a nation of laws. Our nation is rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal aliens entering our country...

      "Illegal immigrants take jobs from citizens or legal immigrants, they impose burdens on our taxpayers...

      "That is why we are doubling the number of border guards, deporting more illegal immigrants than ever before, cracking down on illegal hiring, barring benefits to illegal aliens, and we will do more to speed the deportation of illegal immigrants arrested for crimes...

      "It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws that has occurred in the last few years.. .and we must do more to stop it."

      This got a standing ovation. Not because the facts he was stating were so obvious, but because of who was stating them.

      "What the commission is concerned about are the unskilled workers in our society in an age in which unskilled workers have far too few opportunities open to them. When immigrants are less well-educated and less-skilled, they may pose economic hardships to the most vulnerable of Americans, particularly those who are unemployed or under-employed."

      the first black woman elected to Congress from the South.

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    9. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're comparing the average approval ratings from Gallup. Note that Trump's running average is currently 39.1%, which is much worse than any other president on that list.

      I see that the only way you can get 50% approval rating is by searching through the peak (not average) of every poll and cherry-picking the highest (Rasmussen, in this case). By that measure, every other president still had a higher approval rating than Trump too.

    10. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump's average approval rating on Gallup is currently 39%. Every single president on that list had a better approval rating than him.

    11. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by spk037 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      According to Rasmussen's daily polling for Monday, February 26th, Trump has a 49% approval rating. Even more interesting, Obama, on this date in the 2nd year of his presidency, only had a 44% approval rating.

      Curiously, according to the Washington Post, Obama's media coverage was 42% positive and 20% negative. While the coverage for Trump was 62% negative and only 5% positive. A number of other studies show negative coverage of Trump to be over 90%.

    12. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it is laughable that you list ending corruption as one of his positions he supports. Drain the swamp, indeed.

    13. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      exactly... Its just tired ra ra sis boom bah to intimidate. Its as meaningless as the stamping of the feet from one side of the stadium.

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    14. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're ignoring that Trump is a selfish self-aggrandizing buffoon. Not a leader. Not a thinker. Not empathetic. He doesn't have policy positions, but whatever an aide or lobbyist whispers in his ear. His goals are crowd worship and money. If you think there's anything else, you're deluded.

    15. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On and on and on. The man is sitting at 50% approval right now.
      http://news.gallup.com/poll/11...

      Your link doesn't show 50%. In fact, it doesn't even show an approval rating at all for Trump.

      The most recent approval rating I can find from Gallup is for Feb 18th with 37%. If you have something that shows it has jumped to 50%, I'm genuinely interested in seeing it. Thanks.

    16. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      https://www.msnbc.com/morning-...

      MSNBC finds this credible for whatever you take from that.

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    17. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Make a complete argument, please. What corruption do you think he's facilitating?

      There was a series of scandals with the IRS, the EPA, the DOS, the DOD, the DOJ, and the FBI prior to his election.

      There seems plenty of justification for a general purge.

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    18. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      This is a good example of what I was talking about.

      This is just ad hominem. On the issues, what do you disagree with, please?

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    19. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1
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    20. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to the hypocrites in his own party and their own statements on groups he belongs to like godless NY elite and celebrities. What a dumb post

    21. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last ratified constitution amendment was in 1971, not the 1980s.

    22. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All I have is this script to copy paste from. Correct the Record doesn't pay me to make arguments. That's Rachel Maddow's job.

    23. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit.

      The Trumps have been reviled since long before the Cheeto-in-Chief even declared he was running (which means a time when he would still have been considered a Democrat, because he was back then).

      The Trumps are despised because they are spoiled, arrogant, vane, narcissistic assholes. They are zero-sum capitalists that take from society and provide zero value in return. They are vile, nasty disgusting animals. The worst of the worst.

      The Trumps are shit-stains on the fabric of society. It is only your own tribalism that keeps you from seeing that.

    24. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How about how Mexico treats Belize and Guatemala?

    25. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The man is sitting at 50% approval right now.
      http://news.gallup.com/poll/11...

      Followed that link, found only ex-presidents listed, looked for myself:
      http://news.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx

      Shows he HAD 50%, a year ago, but I see 39% as the most recent.

    26. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that poll is a significant outlier compared to pretty well every other published poll on the same topic. did you even watch the msnbc video that you linked to that described the fact that it was done with a different methodology than the others?

    27. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's even the R to Trump's name, it's just that they cannot absorb the idea of Trump leading the country.

      As a thought experiment -- imagine if Trump ran as a Democrat (which he was until 2009) on a socially liberal but economically protectionist platform like Bernie's, defeating Hillary and becoming a D candidate to the dismay of all the establishment and intellectuals. I imagine blue collar and simple folks would vote for him, while actual liberal intellectuals would vote for any R candidate if he seemed at all reasonable, no matter how bland, like Jeb for example. They just can't stand the way Trump thinks and speaks.

    28. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      All of which has nothing to do with policies or the job he's doing. I mean, its the same tired ad hominem.

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    29. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      thank you for the correction

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    30. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      As Mueller digs deeper into Trump's campaign staff, you're trying to pretend he isn't corrupt?

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    31. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thank you for finally calling out this ridiculous entitlement for what it really is: everyone wants to live in the US because it is viewed as better than most alternatives.

    32. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      I'm noting the absence of evidence.

      What you're saying is INVESTIGATION = GUILT.

      By this logic everyone ever investigated for anything was guilty of whatever they were investigated for...

      Thus far we have another special council fishing expedition.

      Again, happy to be proven wrong... show the evidence and prove it.

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    33. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      Opposition to Trump is nearly entirely tribalism. On the issues, we agree. This immigration stuff in particular is something that most Americans of both parties agree upon. Lots of people from BOTH parties are manipulated by powerful interests that have a different agenda.

      Most Democrats and Republicans don't want the current high levels of immigration with the seemingly lax control and standards. However, large portions of the Republicans and Democrat congress do want it.

      Republican politicians seem to want it because powerful business interests like depressing US wages to improve profit margins. Democrat politicians want it because they believe that once citizens unskilled third world labor will become supporters of heavy welfare policies which will make them reliable voters for the Democratic party. In neither case does this benefit the majority of voters. It is supported by these people largely because they've sold their own voters out to obtain other goals indifferent to the interests of voters.

      This is why the tribalism is toxic. Be an issues voter that chooses his issues based on personally constructed reasons rather than simply adopting projected justifications. We can't be a free people if our citizenry slavishly clap along to anything.

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    34. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      So were the polls that showed Trump would win the election in the first place. I'm not saying the polls I'm citing are right or wrong or yours are right or wrong... but that you have a lot of polls that agree with each other doesn't mean they're right.

      Let us just leave it at... you are dubious of those results... very well... naturally subsequent elections will clarify the reality of one of these views over time. Till then.

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    35. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Investigations that produce ongoing indictments and guilty pleas are evidence that something's going on. The Trump campaign was clearly corrupt. We're looking into Russian interference with the election, and Trump is trying to be buddy-buddy with the Russians. Obviously, this isn't enough to convict, and likely isn't probable cause by itself, but I find it suggestive.

      As far as Trump himself being corrupt, we know that already. He bought off a state attorney general who was investigating Trump U. He's paid hush money to keep affairs quiet. His self-admitted sexual morals are deplorable. One of his standard business practices has been stiffing subcontractors and telling them they can sue.

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    36. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Eh... not really. We could probably find just as much if we looked into the clintons.

      I mean, one of the "crimes" was that Flynn said he didn't talk to a Russian diplomat AFTER Trump was elected when he had talked to a Russian diplomat. Had he said he did do it... there would have been no legal consequences.

      This is why most lawyers will tell you to respond "I don't recall" to every question when something like this happens. Because there are a million laws and they're frequently not applied reasonably.

      Do you know for example that if you tell a police officer something it can be used AGAINST you in court but not FOR you? See, its evidence if against you but merely heresay if for you.

      Which is why you shouldn't talk to the police most of the time if you think there is a possibility of being accused of anything.

      What you'd need to sustain your position on Trump is a pattern that ultimately implicates Trump himself or at the very least his campaign. Which you don't have. You have some people getting flustered when harassed by the FBI and you have some dodgy money which at worst will burn one guy... that isn't trump.

      Am I missing anything here? If you turned that same focus to Hillary I'm sure you'd find something fishy in the Clinton Foundation or the Uranium One deal or something... To say nothing of the suspicious body count in people that were inconvenient to the Clintons.

      By the same standard you're using here... Bernie would probably run into problems as well. You've got that College that basically went bankrupt under his wife's watch. Who knows.

      Believe what you want but at the end of the day, you're going to have to have something substantial unless you want to just become the left wing version of Alex Jones.

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    37. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Eh... not really. We could probably find just as much if we looked into the clintons.

      False equivalence. Moreover, the Clintons have been investigated extensively, so we have a good idea what they've done, and the Trump campaign and Trump himself are only starting to get that level of scrutiny.

      Which you don't have. You have some people getting flustered when harassed by the FBI and you have some dodgy money which at worst will burn one guy... that isn't trump.

      You could only say that by claiming to know what Mueller is finding and will find, which is information that should not be available outside the investigation. You're presupposing an outcome and maintaining it's the only one.

      If you turned that same focus to Hillary I'm sure you'd find something fishy in the Clinton Foundation or the Uranium One deal or something... To say nothing of the suspicious body count in people that were inconvenient to the Clintons.

      Clinton Foundation? Investigated. Uranium One deal? Harmless. Check up on that if you like. Benghazi? Congressional hearing after congressional hearing with no wrongdoing found. The Clintons have been under private and public scrutiny for a long time now. Body count? Care to name a few deaths that have actual evidence of Clinton involvement, since you're so fussy about evidence against Trump?

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    38. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Actually the Clintons were given blanket immunity by the FBI... I this was all documented. You're going ask for evidence... I'll cite a mainstream source like CNN or something... don't waste my time with that.

      You want to pretend there is something there, so be it... There are people that pretend they have force powers or larp as vampires. If you have something then take them to court. Thus far we have some dodgy money with some fund raisers which is pretty typical of all the campaigns and Flynn idiotically discovering how to commit a crime when he didn't do anything wrong.

      Its all a joke. But naturally it has to be a big evil Russian conspiracy because absent that narrative the Democrats would have to admit they lost an election which is clearly impossible because they were anointed by the Gods to rule time and space.

      The arrogance and ego on display in this thing has been breathtaking.

      And yes, I know... you believe in your one true god. That's super. Take it to court or join the likes of Ken Ham in the choir pushing creationism.

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    39. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Typing "clinton fbi immunity" gives me a couple of pages of results about Clinton aides who wanted immunity. This is standard practice in an investigation: give immunity to the little fish in exchange for testimony about the bigger fishes. (Also, if you've got immunity, you can be required to testify about illegal things you did, since the Fifth's clause about self-incrimination only applies if the person in question is or might be on trial.)

      You continue to ignore the Mueller investigation. We know the Russians were meddling in the 2016 election, we're finding Trump campaign officials implicated in criminal acts, and we know Trump is heavily involved in Russian business dealings and has, in contrast to every President of my lifetime, refused to divest himself of his holdings or even reveal his finances - and he said he'd do the latter. Nobody outside the investigation knows quite where this is going.

      While I don't actually consider evidence and reasoning to be gods, I do believe in them.

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    40. Re:Most opposition to Trump is tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      You're bad at the internet:
      http://www.chicagotribune.com/...

      It was granted... not merely asked for...

      As to standard practice, it wasn't. You can read into it if you want. The entire thing was panned by experts across the field.

      Look, you love your football team... Ra ra sis boom bah... But it isn't credible.

      If you dug into Clinton half as hard as you dug into Trump you'd find at least as much.

      The Russia story is bullshit. You know it is bullshit. They've found zero evidence of collusion. Its a fishing expedition where by being very anal about some rules they've tricked one guy into breaking the a law that no one cares about in that context and caught another guy breaking a financing rule that is being ignored by most of Washington.

      Its a joke.

      Prove me wrong and show the collusion.

      In the mean time, enjoy this:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

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  32. Say what you will of trump... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But this is much needed and def a step in the right direction... Lots of companies ABUSE these visas and pretty much traffic Indian IT by subcontracting. At my office got to the point now that Latinos, White and Asian are a minority . We all keep getting replace by Indian willing to do the job for a fraction of the salary. There is NO shortage of programmers in the USA we have the skill needed here.

  33. Damn those large fonts by nospam007 · · Score: 0

    I read "Trump Administration Cracks" and I already had my hopes up when I read the rest in the next line.

  34. Nope. Just like China, this is just BS by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    H1B is a worthless program for America. If we have a true shortage of help ( we don't ), then we should bring in more green cards. Regardless, CONgress will keep h1b going.

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    1. Re:Nope. Just like China, this is just BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF has this got to do with China?

      Does America really want to import thousands of code monkeys(and their families) (and other relatives) for jobs that will just be done by AI or remotely from another country anyway in a few short years?

      H1B is perfect for America, it provides the temporary skills needed, without the burden of having to support all those families when the next bubble bursts, or next big thing takes over.

    2. Re:Nope. Just like China, this is just BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > without the burden of having to support all those families

      As an European, I laughed my ass. US, support families HaHahA, best joke ever.

  35. Focusing on abuse, you miss high-skilled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The more there is a focus on the "abuse", the hardest it will be hard to everybody to get a H1B. When high-skilled people are hard to recruit, you don't get them by making the administrative burden painfuller. Breaking news: high-skilled people have got already a nice job! No incentive, no high-skilled.

    1. Re:Focusing on abuse, you miss high-skilled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The more there is a focus on the "abuse", the hardest it will be hard to everybody to get a H1B. When high-skilled people are hard to recruit, you don't get them by making the administrative burden painfuller. Breaking news: high-skilled people have got already a nice job! No incentive, no high-skilled.

      H1B's are not "high-skilled people". That's the O1 visa program, and there is no cap on O1 visas.

  36. Enforce the salary requirements by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    Bust a few large tech companies. Find out they're underpaying people on H1Bs and make them pay up with back pay.

    So the people on H1B visas get a salary increase and the tech companies lose the incentive to fire Americans and replace them with H1Bs.

    Who loses in this scenario? Well the tech companies do, but it'll be hard for them to spin this as a bad thing. And unlike many will actually go bankrupt since most are sitting on enormous piles of cash.

    --
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    1. Re:Enforce the salary requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I must be an exception, but at places I worked at, H1-B and O visas were held by employees that had higher positions and very good salaries because they were important to the business.

    2. Re:Enforce the salary requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crack down?
      How many successful prosecutions have occurred? Fines collected. Backpay paid?
      OK just noise, the man in charge has a negative track record, and swamp fees paid up.
      The fines for dishoesty should be eye watering. If they are at the beach - they should go home. simple.

    3. Re:Enforce the salary requirements by ghoul · · Score: 1

      If there is a mega crackdown on H1Bs, India will negotiate with US for the return of Social Security payments made by H1Bs. In the last 25 years H1Bs have contributed a shitload to SS without taking any payouts. If this money has to be returned SS wil go bankrupt. Say Bye bye to welfare/Disability checks.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    4. Re:Enforce the salary requirements by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      This 'crackdown' means H1Bs get paid more. Also consider the following conversation

      India : Because of [a very convoluted argument] you owe us social security payments and if you pay social security will go bankrupt now rather than in a couple of decades.
      US : Err, no. We're not going to do that.

      If you contribute to social security but never claim a pension that doesn't mean you can claim the money back. I've paid tax in loads of places that I'm not going to get a pension in. I can't 'negotiate' to get my money back. It's just gone.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    5. Re:Enforce the salary requirements by ghoul · · Score: 1

      The social security rules say that if foreign countries have a treaty with US saying they have their own social security than the foreign nationals on work visas dont have to pay social security. e.g. French folks on H1 in the US do not pay FICA taxes. India does not have such a Totalization treaty hence Indian H1Bs get screwed - they have to pay FICA taxes but their H1s are valid for only 6 years and you do not become eligible to claim unless you have 40 quarters or 10 years of contributions so they never get to claim. India can negotiate for a "totalization" treaty and US cant really refuse unless it wants to get pulled up at the WTO that its giving favorable treatment to France over India. Indian politicians have been too busy buying billions of dollars of US military hardware and exporting billions of dollars in software services to bother negotiate a "totalization" treaty but this card is always available to play.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    6. Re:Enforce the salary requirements by ghoul · · Score: 1

      I am all for paying H1Bs more but the fact of the matter is the rules for H1Bs are very biased. The employer has too much power and it takes far too long to settle legally (GCs have a 10 year backlog).
      As long as the playing field is not fair people dont care about playing fair either. They will exploit every loophole they can get away with.

      Want to solve the H1 issue - make the visa non capped and individual. Anyone with the qualification should be able to get the visa individually without a 6 month wait. Then they would be able to compete in the market on fair terms and not have to accept bad work conditions.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
  37. I don't see what's wrong by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Some staffing agencies seek hard-to-get H-1B visas for high-skilled workers, only to contract them out to other companies. There's nothing inherently illegal about contracting out visa recipients, but the workers are supposed to maintain a relationship with their employers, among other requirements.

    The employer is the agency. It's no different to what Toilet & Douche, Cowboys & Lowbrows, Pricey Whorehouse or any of the others do.

    There are problems with the H1B system, but this ain't one of them. Make the applicant actually have the skills requested so they can't put things on to block locals - "must be an astronaut & Olympic medallist in 17 sports, plus an Oscar" - and have the applicant own the visa so they aren't captive.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:I don't see what's wrong by ghoul · · Score: 1

      "must be an astronaut & Olympic medallist in 17 sports, plus an Oscar"

      You must be thinking of the O1 visa. That is the visa that Nativists point to as an alternate to the H1 and for which USCIS makes ridiculous demands of proof.

      The H1 was created as industry said the USCIS is slowing down hiring too much for Greencards and the companies needed a faster way to get foreigners over here to work. It was also part of the WTO negotiations where India bargained for access to the US services market in return for US companies' access to the Indian domestic goods market.

      The H1 is doing what it was supposed to do, allow companies to quickly hire foreigners for positions they are not finding Americans for. Every H1 costs 10000 out of which 5000 is menat to retrain Americans so that the skills are available locally. Where is that money going?

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    2. Re:I don't see what's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he's thinking of H1Bs, that's why you see ads looking for astronaut/Olympian/Oscar winner but they only want to pay $10/hr. They know some H1B will lie on their resume and say they are all three while they can give an affidavit that no American resume was received for their announcement, thus justifying the H1B need to USCIS.

    3. Re:I don't see what's wrong by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You must be thinking of the O1 visa.

      Your telepathy skills need some work. A bunch of shysters called Cohen & Grigsby offer seminars on how to game the system. It's pretty famous. Or rather, infamous.

      The H1 was created as industry said the USCIS is slowing down hiring too much for Greencards and the companies needed a faster way to get foreigners over here to work. It was also part of the WTO negotiations where India bargained for access to the US services market in return for US companies' access to the Indian domestic goods market.

      Interesting. Why is it then that of the couple of dozen H1Bs I knew back in the 1990s none were Indian? They did it as a favour to the British, Dutch & Germans, perhaps? How kind.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:I don't see what's wrong by ghoul · · Score: 1

      British Dutch and German's do not need the H1 to work in the US. They can come on E3 and E4 treaty visas. India does not have a treaty with US so the only visa open to Indians is the H1 hence the over representation of Indians in the H1 category.
      BTW some Europeans choose H1 over E3 because H1 is a dual intent visa. It specifically allows applying for greencards whereas the treaty visas do not.
      Frankly Europeans get 2 months of vacation, free medical care and free college for their kids so not many are interested in moving to the US for work. Its mostly Indians who have both the education level and the motivation to move to the US.
      For most Indians(from the upper middle class) who apply for the H1 , moving to the US involves a temporary reduction in standard of life in return for an increase in the standard of living of their kids.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
  38. Better solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The best solution is to have a third-party do the hiring, and any firing has to be done through them, and they have no reason to let a hib in. They also have carte blanche to say "Nobody with this much experience will work at this price, you're hiring this person at $18/hour and that's final" and "Three years experience? Fuck off, we're hiring this guy with six months experience.", and only when they exhaust all candidates they will say "Fine, you can hire your goddamn hib, but we're deciding his paycheck."

  39. Trump better watch out ... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    ... two of his three wives are foreigners. Given his track record, he might need one of those H-1B visas for the next one.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  40. Re:Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because RNC has had control of government since 2010 and BO was too naïve to push his agenda when they had control back in 2008-2009. Other than O-Care, that was it.

  41. For Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trump is actually doing something I can agree with at least in principle. I don't have any issues with the H1B system per se, but I do have an issue with how a lot of companies have been openly abusing the system and no one has done anything about it.

    So this brings the count of things he's done that I consider to be good to two. He is also pumping more money into space exploration, even if that's just recreating something from his childhood in sending people back to the moon. The number of technological innovations we benefited from as a result of the space program are legion.

  42. At least he's trying but still screwing it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not use a free-market based, fiscally conservative approach to these? Put them up for auction, and put as many up for auction until the annual purchase price per visa drops to some multiple, say 4x, of the median individual income in the US, which is $27K. So every company pays the government $108K per year per visa plus whatever they need to pay the employee. Do away with any kind of bureaucratic advertising requirement or job classification or degree requirement or anything else. And since the goal of this visa is to cover temporary gaps in skill sets, increase it by the US MII every year it is renewed for the same person. Incentivizes the company to train / hire local talent.

    This will make it easy to hire talented specialists of all types (actors, athletes, software architects, general managers, physical therapists, etc) but not a bunch of code monkeys and engineers which can be easily recruited in rural America.

  43. e-Verify by ghoul · · Score: 1

    The govt already has a system in place to verify people before they join. Employers dont like using it as they want to hire illegals. Illegals work harder and dont make any waves as they want to fly under the radar. Look at how illegals mostly work in fields like Chicken processing or Fruit picking. These are fields where people are exploited. Software companies dont use illegals even though there is a clear demand for foreign labor. This is because software companies are more honest employers.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
  44. Re:Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pa by ghoul · · Score: 1

    H1B workers are paid more than local citizens. That is ensured by the LCA process. In fact with the cost of applying for the LCA and the H1 visa , an H1 candidate costs 10K more than a local candidate and the hiring process takes 4 weeks more than it would to hire a local. People dont hire H1s because they want to, they hire them because they cant find locals.
    Also H1s dont change jobs often, this is attractive to employers who are looking to have lesser attrition. This was supposed to be fixed through the AC21 act making it easier for H1s to change jobs so that employers could not just stop giving them raises but with the Trump administration's latest policies on making it difficult to change jobs we are back to the bad old days of the Clinton administration.
    Infosys and Wipro must have paid huge donations to the Trump campaign. When you make an H1 a scarcity commodity , the companies holding the existing ones can make more money from it.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
  45. So many simple steps that could be taken by PortHaven · · Score: 2

    So many simple steps that could be taken to improve the system, like those seeking less candidates receive approval first.

    > Request only 1-2 H1B's, you have top priority, 3-10 then you have second tier priority, 11-100, third tier, 100-1,000 fourth tier, 1,000+ last tier. All higher tiers are reviewed and granted prior to the next tier. That alone would shift the H1B program to a much more legitimate implementation.

    > Increase salary requirement and set to inflation adjustment every 5 years.

    > Random audits, all candidate resumes provided must be uploaded to the H1B visa program. Companies with a 100 or more H1B visas are randomly selected for audit and review.

    > 10% tax levied per $100,000 bracket of H1B visa, the revenues directly fund programs to provide free access to STEM programs at community and state colleges. If the H1B visas are needed because there are not enough qualified candidates, than the program should help fund the qualifying of candidates.

  46. Mar-a-Lago by ScienceofSpock · · Score: 1

    I'll bet Mar-a-Lago didn't lose any.

    1. Re:Mar-a-Lago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whataboutism ;)

  47. The Truth is.. by PortHaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The truth is, Bernie should of won. Except Hillary and the DNC flat out cheated on so many levels to prevent him from being the nominee. Americans wanted a non-establishment candidate

    - Hillary Clinton, prospective nominee, expected candidate, 100% establishment, epitome of establishment and partisan politics.
    - Bernie Sanders, long shot, good person, non-establishment candidate.
    - Donald Trump, a jerk, major personal issues, non-establishment candidate.

    Americans wanted a non-establishment candidate. Americans would have elected Bernie Sanders. Except Hillary and the DNC did everything they could to block and prevent him (including flat out cheating, providing debate questions, removing hundreds of thousands of voters from voter rolls in pro-Bernie districts, miraculous coin flips, pulling in favors from the media to downplay and hide Bernie's successes and Hillary's failures, and so much more).

    The end result, DNC burned their younger demographic, showing the youth their votes don't matter. America, which wanted a anti-establishment candidate was now left with only one, Trump. The combination of a desire for anti-establishment and DNC hurting their own base resulted in what was to many, a shocking turn of events - President Trump. Yet, the result was exactly as I had predicted. All my Democrat friends who mocked me over my support of Bernie Sanders were shocked and dismayed. But I tried to explain to them, here I was, a lifelong Republican and Ron Paul supporter, and I was out there with Bernie Sanders yard signs and so was my mother. This is something that most did not understand. And folks like me, and there were quite a few, ( a lot of Ron Paul, anti-war libertarian Republicans were supporting Bernie Sanders) were NEVER going to vote for Hillary.

    People like the above, are still so flabbergasted and clueless as to why their presumed perfect candidate Hillary failed to win. They have clamored for straws ever since, and latched onto the idea that somehow Russia was the deciding factor. It'd be laughable, if it weren't so sad.

    Hillary lost, because she was a 100% establishment candidate who was caught using the full weight of the establishment to block the democratic process. She was the wrong candidate, at the wrong time. And a bad one at that...

    1. Re:The Truth is.. by hambone142 · · Score: 1

      I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. It was obvious that Hillary purchased the DNC for her purposes. They had a spreadsheet of positions they were going to use to reward major donors ( here http://dailycaller.com/2016/07... )

      Hillary pissed off the young folks and the non-elitist Democrats.

      The reactionary vote went with Trump.

      It'll be interesting to see what the next election looks like. The Republicans really blew it on the last election as they had no electable candidate and Trump threatened to go third party if they didn't allow him to run under their ticket. The other Repubs. chickened out early and all that was left was Trump.

      Next time around, it'll be another name recognition game. Trump being one name and I suspect someone like Biden may be he other one. If it's not Biden, they'll have a lot of trouble because there is no one that stands out.

      We tend to elect popular names, not the candidate.

    2. Re:The Truth is.. by micahraleigh · · Score: 2

      I have a friend in the DNC. He is working very hard to convince people they have a say in their party, but he is met mostly with disbelief from his own party. I'm not sure he believes the DNC will nominate their people's pick. He SURE believes Bernie would have won in a general. Personally, I have no idea.

      Even though I am a GOP guy, I respect my friends efforts to fight the corruption in the DNC. He's certainly not alone.

      I think he is up against too much, though :(

      Rush says to never feel sorry for these guys, but I do anyway.

    3. Re:The Truth is.. by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      "The reactionary vote went with Trump."

      I haven't figured out if this was a referendum election or not.

      No one seems to be bringing up that topic.

      Some of Trump's comments indicate he didn't think it mattered who the GOP nominated, so he sees to be the closest anyone has gotten to weighing in on the topic.

      I mostly voted for Trump than against Obama or against Hillary, but there was a lot of anger in the outcome. I kind of think it was more referendum than not.

    4. Re:The Truth is.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ur a rebublikan shil

    5. Re:The Truth is.. by david_thornley · · Score: 0

      Sanders is not a member of the Democratic Party, and he would have lost in the general election.

      There's enough people in the US who would prefer ebola to socialism (whatever the heck that is) that Sander's self-characterization as a "democratic socialist" would almost certainly have lost him any chance. I'm saying that as one who supported him through the nomination process. I wanted Clinton to win, but I wanted Sanders to come close.

      The job of the DNC is to get a good electable candidate out there. There were only two popular candidates, and Clinton won the primaries. The superdelegates slanted heavily her way, and she didn't need them. I'd think the caucus states easier to rig, but they went more toward Sanders.

      Clinton obviously wasn't a perfect candidate. She's got the charisma of a damp dishrag. I was unhappy with some of her positions. I don't know how effective the Russians were, but Comey pretty much changed the results of the election by talking about the emails in late October.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  48. But, but, but... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    It's illegal to replace qualified U.S. workers with H1B visa holders.

    ***

    Ah, you see, we outsourced 1/2 hour work to India. So one of our job requirements along with 8 years of HTML 5 experience was the ability to speak fluent Hindi in order to communicate with our off-shore IT department.

    Sadly, we couldn't find any qualified U.S. personnel to fill any of the positions.

  49. Re:Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know, when I heard Trump talk about this on the campaign trail, I was mortified.

    Trump and I agreed on something...

    I took 10 showers to get that off me.

    Still preventing H1b abuse is one thing I agree with him on, and I am glad to see him actually take steps in this direction.

    Personally, I am not against the idea of the program, but there maybe needs to be different incentives. For instance, replace the lotto with a bidding program, that way the H1bs will go to places that actually pay well (with IRS backing up the pay requirement with enforcement).

  50. WRONG by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    You've been on the same side of the same coin...

    "I've been in the company of some really skilled engineers who were here on some form of H1-B Visa"

    Yes, you have. And those really skilled engineers were likely being paid an average engineering wage, where as to hire an American with the same caliber of skills, one would have to pay nearly twice as much.

    Here's the big rub, Americans, can't compete with H1B visa holders. Why not? Because, education in the U.S. is too expensive. It'll cost you around a $100,000 for a Master's in Engineering. In India, what does it run, $5,000? How long does it take you to pay off $5,000 when working in the U.S. versus $100,000 + interest?

    The U.S. worker, let's say with a 15 year loan at 6% interest, needs to earn an additional $10,000 more than the Indian worker just to be on par financially. And this is a factor that is never really considered when comparing and stating, well, they take the jobs that Americans won't. NO, they take jobs Americans CAN'T. And they allow corporations to continually push down wages, resulting in more jobs Americans CAN'T afford to take.

  51. No we're not... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    That is utter BS. We have one of the lowest levels of those receiving unemployment benefits. But workforce participation is rather low. Which means, many are unemployed, or underemployed, and have been so for prolonged states of time.

    Do you know how many college degreed individuals are working menial retail jobs and part time jobs at $10/hr? Tons.

    About the lowest since 2000. (Please note, that first half of the last century was a single parent workforce, thus participation was lower, because a single job could support a family.)
    https://data.bls.gov/timeserie...

  52. "They can't find locals" Absolute bullshit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "They can't find locals" Absolute bullshit!

    They write a local job ad knowing FULL WELL they won't find that perfect candidate. Then they apply for cheap foreign labor.

    IT IS CALLED PRETEXT.

    1. Re:"They can't find locals" Absolute bullshit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also add in contract requirements that are not acceptable without force: the force of having to work to eat and thereby live.

  53. Just don't make this a witch hunt by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    These rule changes sound sane. I just hope the anti H1-B sentiment doesn't become a witch hunt. I often see posts here making blanket statements that all H1-B visa workers are underpaid and/or underskilled. Yet I work with several H1-B immigrants who are DANG FRIEKING GOOD. They are some of the best people on the team, and they have been trying to get green cards for a while. Some of them got married here and want to buy a house and start a family. These are engineers with college degrees who are easily employable tax-paying wannabe Americans. This is how immigration keeps America great, let us not forget that.

  54. Fix: Make a H-1b filing fee of 20% local salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fix: Make a H-1b filing fee of 20% local, non-import, annual salary.
    If they want to file 100,000 people, GREAT!

    If the prevailing wage is $50K/yr, then $10K filing fee for each position.
    If the prevailing wage is $150K/yr, then the fee is $30K.

    The actual paid wage for the H-1b visa person doesn't matter, since there are already laws covering those.

    As a bonus, take those fees and pay for the visa checks and everything left over go towards US citizens being retrained by accredited public colleges and universities for the specific skill that was to be filled. None of the for-profit, ripoff schools need apply.

  55. Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let me correct that for you, and describe why.

    Was Trump's election helped by the Russians? The jury is out but leaning towards yes.

    However the biggest contributor to Trump's success wasn't part of the Russian election interference machine. It also wasn't Trump, or anyone who was on his payroll.

    The biggest contribution to Trump's victory was Hillary Clinton herself. Republicans who despised Trump went out in droves to vote against Hillary Clinton. Simultaneously a not-insignificant number of democrats who didn't like Hillary stayed home or voted for someone else. Trump stirs anger like few other politicians before him, and is skilled at weaponizing it.

    1. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Cite some evidence of that. I mean, anyone can say something. I could say that you are personally made entirely out of cheese.

      Is that true? Are you made of cheese? Evidence or you set a standard of evidence not being required. At which point... God exists...

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    2. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many times did Trump include recitations of

      lock her up

      in his campaign rallies? That was very specifically used to remind republicans of who his opponent was, and to stir up their fears of what could happen if he were to lose. Couple that to the "Bernie or bust" voters from the democrats and you get an increase in Trump votes coupled to a decrease in Clinton votes. Trump would have been utterly annihilated at the national and electoral level by nearly any other conceivable democrat; they just happened to pick the one that he could defeat.

      If you weren't watching the news coverage of this leading up to the election, that is not my problem. I haven't seen you offering up much in terms of citations for your opinions in this thread yourself.

    3. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Naturally there is tribalism all over the place. We're human beings so that's just part of the landscape.

      But the point is why are people choosing X vs Y? Is it issues or tribalism?

      Because again, if you cite most Trump policies to democrats as if they were democrat ideas, the ideas and programs are generally popular with democrats.

      Thus opposition is apparently almost entirely tribalism. If instead you cited Hillary ideas at Republicans and they liked them if told they were trump ideas, then I'd also conclude that opposition to Hillary is tribalism.

      Can you do that? Because there are many examples of Trump ideas getting supported by democrats when they think they're hillary or bernie ideas.

      I look forward to examples. *Smiley Face*

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    4. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because again, if you cite most Trump policies to democrats as if they were democrat ideas, the ideas and programs are generally popular with democrats.

      (citation needed)

      Why is it that your claims are apparently self-evident yet claims that counter your claims need citations?

      I haven't seen massive waves of democrats clamoring to build a border wall. I haven't seen huge groups of democrats shouting to reduce corporate tax rates. I haven't seen democrats tripping over each other to pull out of NAFTA or the Paris Accord.

      It's trivially easy to find youtube videos of Trump rallies where he called for Hillary to be thrown in jail (without once ever saying for what - or bothering to suggest that a trial should happen first). He was capitalizing on the anti-Clinton sentiment there.

    5. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      Please.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      You can go out and try it yourself. Get a few quotes, go to your buddies, tell them it comes from X democrat, and then ask if they agree with the position.

      Do it for science.

      And here you're going to maybe ask for a series of peer reviewed studies or something... be skeptical... but actually test it yourself. Seriously.

      Do it. Don't just be skeptical of me... be skeptical of yourself here. Try it out.

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    6. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your silly video links have more to do with the fact that - as Seth Meyers and others have pointed out - Trump has at some point in history held almost every position on almost every issue. If you trim it to only what he has said since he declared his candidacy for the White House - which those videos do not do - then you have a very different picture.

      In other words, you're moving the goalposts. You can't claim that people are rejecting Trump solely based on his party affiliation when you are asking them about what Trump said before he was the leader of the GOP. You're asking people about policies that Trump does not currently champion from his own administration at this point, which is a rather silly exercise.

    7. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0
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    8. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that clip also comes from before the election, before Trump had served a single moment as an elected official. You'd be hard pressed to find an elected official who has changed more positions over the course of his life than has Trump. It's a rather pointless exercise to keep bringing up what he said in the past; if you want to try to make some sort of point here (beyond showing your deep partisan stripes yourself) you need to limit your Trump references to what he has said and done as president.

    9. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      Nope.
      http://harvardharrispoll.com/w...

      Look, I asked you to try it yourself. Read off an idea, say it is bernie or hillary and see what happens.

      I made a statement that we've all seen in operation here. That tribalism plays a very powerful role in how people see things and that many people that think they're issues based are not actually.

      We know this. It a well understood principle in politics and psychology. And ironically if we weren't talking about your sacred cow you'd probably admit it without a fuss. But since we're on your sacred cow you'll deny evolution and whether the world is round if it will just save your personal jesus.

      Run the experiment and maybe you'll break through your own personal cognitive dissonance.

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    10. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      Doesn't matter as the political opinions were created before the election since naturally people did "vote" and those "votes" were based on some notion of who they wanted to be president.

      and for fun:
      http://harvardharrispoll.com/w...

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    11. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Also since you care about when it was taken even though in either case it would speak to my point...

      here is one that is after the SOTU address:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      You're denying the Sun here.

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    12. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You get quite a workout from moving those goalposts, I'd imagine. Just think of what you could do if you put that time to productive use instead.

    13. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Which goal post did I move or are you just repeating things?

      Cite the goal post moved.

      --
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    14. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just did it again right there.

      You are holding the other person to a different standard than you are holding yourself to. You claim that your statements are magically self-evident based solely on the virtue of them coming from you. Then when someone else provides an argument that you disagree with you put up arbitrary standards of citation. And then when someone shows that your arguments don't hold water, you tell them that reality doesn't matter.

    15. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      I actually cited things.

      I also showed I was happy to go through my argument and counter another person's argument.

      So that's the bare minimum standard you'd have to meet if you were meeting the same I held myself to.

      You're not meeting that standard.

      An accusation was made that I was moving goal posts.

      I then asked when asked how.

      You're saying that I can't ask how I am moving goal posts.

      By the standard I have held myself to in this discussion, you would have to actually answer that question.

      Because you're not, I'm going to look at what YOUR standard is... that standard appears to be "say stupid shit and then refuse to back it up."

      Okay, so using YOUR standard:

      You are a fish.

      *eats fish is happy*

      The end.

      --
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    16. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually cited things.

      Except that what you cited fell into one or more of the following categories:

      • youtube videos that were not of the appropriate time frame to support your claim
      • youtube videos that did not actually support your claim at all
      • incoherent blog gibberish by someone of - at best - questionable credibility

      So in other words, you did not cite anything that actually supported your argument.
       
       

      I also showed I was happy to go through my argument and counter another person's argument

      Except you didn't. You kept moving the goal posts, never once actually providing any remotely credible source that supported your claim. You then held people of opposing viewpoints to much higher standards than yourself. That is pretty much the definition of moving the goalposts.
       
       

      You're saying that I can't ask how I am moving goal posts.

      And now you're just making shit up. It was laid plainly at your feet how you were moving the goalposts. This is not a new philosophical concept either, you could look this up if you wanted to.

    17. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      Mixture of false and irrelevant.

      My point was about tribalism in and of itself as regards Trump and I didn't cite a specific time frame. Your insistence that it be time frame X is not my argument but an attempt to strawman my position. That video still showed the tribalism.

      What is more, I provided many videos, most of which were well after your time frame requirement showing the same thing. So... clearly the time frame argument is totally irrelevant here not only because it wasn't my point but because there is clearly no difference in results before or after.

      As to the videos not supporting my claim, they showed people supporting a claim because they thought Hillary or Bernie said it or opposing a policy because Trump said it. And then it showed them being very surprised when it was revealed that Trump said it or Obama said it or whatever. The point was to show the tribalism.

      You're just validating the whole horse lead to water saying here. I can't get you to agree to something if you're just going to be mulish. All you're doing is contradicting. You're not even rebutting the positions with coherent and complete arguments.

      As to moving goal posts... Again, I've asked this before... which goal post did I move? As to holding other people to different standards... First, no I didn't... and you apparently don't know what the statement "moving goal posts" means. You clearly intend to accuse me of hypocrisy which is not moving goal posts.

      For your information... so you don't sound like an idiot in the future, moving goal posts is when someone says "X is true because fact Y" and then when fact Y becomes invalidated the argument is shifted to "X is true because fact Z"... This often takes the form of increasing standards of evidence suddenly or changing win or loss conditions suddenly to avoid losing an argument.

      I didn't do that. I'm going to cite the wikipedia for these things because your ignorance of these terms is pathetic and you should really work on some self improvement here.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      So now we've gotten to the root of the misunderstanding. You don't know what these terms mean. I thought you did which confused me as to what you meant.

      Read up, think about what you want to say, maybe read over what I've said again because I don't think you actually read anything I had to say very clearly... and then try again.

      If you don't do this, then you're just going to embarrass yourself. This is not an insult. Everyone has things of which they are ignorant. Have a little humility and go over your position again. I'm happy to read it with an open mind just like I did the first time.

      If you don't do this... you're just doubling down on an error which would show a lack of intellectual integrity and more than a touch of out of control egoism. Either way, best of luck.

      --
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    18. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't get to brush off facts just because they make you look like an idiot.

      You asked the AC to do something, the AC fully complied and demonstrated the facts that supported their claim. Then you claimed they needed to do something else that was arbitrarily different from that, while continuing to shove your own fingers into your own ears in response to any request for you to provide similar support for your claims.

      That is a textbook example of moving the goalposts. You keep changing the burden of proof - both for yourself and the other - to protect your own fragile ego because you are apparently not emotionally stable enough to handle being proven wrong (repeatedly). It's no small wonder you have such a hard time finishing high school with that attitude. How many lights have your parents installed in your bedroom to help you keep your glorious collection of participation trophies illuminated?

    19. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then it showed them being very surprised when it was revealed that Trump said it or Obama said it or whatever. The point was to show the tribalism.

      The validity of that argument depends on Trump himself actually supporting those things that he said, which he does not. Therefore if 2015 Trump said X, and people who oppose him today support X but he himself opposes X then you cannot say that they are opposed to him on any kind of "tribalism" basis. You are attempting - and mind you quite miserably failing - to make a claim that people are opposed to him for no reason other than his name and/or party affiliation. The problem is your sources do not support that claim. The statements he made that the democrats are in your video links as supporting are statements that he as president has been on the record as opposing and has given speeches, tweets, and sound bites opposing. His platform as POTUS is not atypical of his party.

      You can keep attacking the AC all you want, but that will never offset the fact that the facts you are attempting to use to do not support the claim you are trying to make.

    20. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      There's no evidence he doesn't support those things.

      If anything there is evidence he does because he said it, supported the policy, directed subordinates to execute it, and then signed it into law in most cases.

      So... try again.

      --
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    21. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 0

      I'm not brushing off facts. He said this:

      """I actually cited things.

      Except that what you cited fell into one or more of the following categories:

              youtube videos that were not of the appropriate time frame to support your claim
              youtube videos that did not actually support your claim at all
              incoherent blog gibberish by someone of - at best - questionable credibility

      So in other words, you did not cite anything that actually supported your argument.

      I also showed I was happy to go through my argument and counter another person's argument

      Except you didn't. You kept moving the goal posts, never once actually providing any remotely credible source that supported your claim. You then held people of opposing viewpoints to much higher standards than yourself. That is pretty much the definition of moving the goalposts.

      You're saying that I can't ask how I am moving goal posts.

      And now you're just making shit up. It was laid plainly at your feet how you were moving the goalposts. This is not a new philosophical concept either, you could look this up if you wanted to."""

      What facts am I brushing off? I addressed everything in this...

      You say I changed the burden of proof... Cite my first criteria of proof and then cite my changed criteria.

      IF you are correct, this should be easy. IF you can't do it then I'm going to conclude that you're merely incorrect.

      --
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    22. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no evidence he doesn't support those things.

      Except for when Trump has said the opposite of those things. Do you not pay any attention to what he says in his speeches, statements, or tweets? Do you not pay attention to the bills he asks congress to deliver to him for signing? Do you not pay attention to his executive orders?
       
       

      If anything there is evidence he does because he said it, supported the policy, directed subordinates to execute it, and then signed it into law in most cases.

      Please, provide an example. Your video links are in response to things that Trump said before he was elected that you are accusing people of disregarding only out of party membership. Can you show an example of him doing something to support these as POTUS? Most if not all of them are counter to what he has actually done as POTUS. If you could inconvenience yourself to provide even a single case of him carrying one of these through that would be impressive (for you).

      At that, he has signed staggeringly few bills into law. In fact, only Eisenhower signed fewer bills into law in his first year in office, and Eisenhower didn't have the advantage of significant majorities in both chambers and control of the SCOTUS. However this plays into your hand quite well as it leaves you with a much shorter body of text to parse through. Can you find a single law that he signed into being that fits the videos you linked to?

    23. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      few people i have ever conversed with here apply a double standard as astonishing as yours. you are again claiming your own claims to be infinitely self-evident while claiming that the other person needs to clear arbitrary hurdles because it would be too much of an inconvenience for you to go back and take an honest look at what you have yourself written. similarly your own claims - remember when there was a topic in this thread that wasn't just your own fragile ego? - were repeatedly discredited and disproven yet you are holding others to arbitrarily high standards of proof (which of course you aren't willing to fully define).

      you keep declaring yourself somehow victorious here. you may want to take a moment to realize a few things about that claim

      • nobody agrees with you on your claim to victory
      • some people actually want to discuss facts from the real world rather than your bizarre notion of victory
      • your declaration does not in any way support any notion of you wanting to discuss an actual issue, and only further supports the notion that you may have a severe learning disability and/or personality disorder

      a reasonable person would reply by actually returning to the topic that this thread began with. i anticipate you will more likely reply with some reality-discarding attack on psychology.

    24. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Actually I asked a simple question and you proved me right by not answering it.

      As to a reasonable person, you attack me and I respond. You are asking me to ignore your attack because I'm unreasonable if I defend myself.

      This is the argument of a coward. You want to be able to attack and not suffer a rebut.

      We can see why you operate under the AC tag. You are an intellectual coward. You are afraid and even offended by the very notion that any of your idiotic arguments would be questioned or that you would be held to ANY standard what so ever.

      You're garbage.

      --
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    25. Re:Most of Trump's success is due to tribalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I asked a simple question and you proved me right by not answering it.

      Where is this question that was not answered? If you are so certain that a question was not answered, you could try asking it again rather than attacking the AC for allegedly not answering it. Your replies are often so overflowing with angry attacks that it could well be that there was a question buried in there that was not seen due to low signal:noise.
       
       

      As to a reasonable person, you attack me and I respond. You are asking me to ignore your attack because I'm unreasonable if I defend myself.

      Where were you attacked? While you launched an attack at the other person in nearly every post you made in this thread, it is very hard to find an example of anyone else attacking you.
       
       

      You're garbage.

      Who is being attacked and who is launching the attacks again?

  56. Re:Why bother with H-1b visas? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked for a company that used e-verify and we still got raided by ICE. It turns out that we had a whole bunch of employees using stolen identities.

    A few years before that the EEOC had fined them. I don't know the details on that but people were told it was because they were "trying too hard not to hire illegals".

    They hit 6 plants one morning and about half the people working 2nd shift just never showed up for work ever again. It was quite a blow to the company and took them over a year to fully staff back up.

    The GP is right. You can only do so much. One thing they did was to reject applicants who presented the same SSN as someone already employed which did happen.

  57. Re:Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LOL you literally read the regulations from the rulebook, trusting companies to follow it when they arent regularly checked up on. i bet you think nobody abuses unemployment or welfare either!

  58. Re:Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why bring up Democrats? What does being a "bleeding heart" have to do the above argument? How are you unaware of the intense complaints about the problem prior to Trump? (Or did you mentally assume that anyone complaining about H1Bs being used to hire people at below-market price isn't a Democrat, in which case the answer to your question is "They did, but you couldn't tell because of cognitive bias").

  59. It's more than that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they can't get YOU or your fellow workers to accept a worse contract, they have to search around the world for someone whose situation is bad enough that they would happily accept the bad contract, because bad as it is, it's better than they have currently available where they are. So h1b's are a way to ensure that the employer can ALWAYS get an employee to accept the contract, making it appear to the idiot libertarian that it is a "free contract agreement" because no literal force was applied by the employee, only the force of needing to eat to survive.

  60. Re:Employers view H1b Visas as a worker for 33% pa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "H1B workers are paid more than local citizens."

    This is a nice assertion, but I can guarantee it's not always true. In this case if we could identify the abuse the actual stated policies might not be so bad.