Slashdot Mirror


Levi Strauss Replaces Human Sanding With Automated Lasers (bloomberg.com)

_Sharp'r_ writes: Stressing jeans used to require 300 to 400 workers with sandpaper all day. Now Levi Strauss does a better job by shooting their new jeans with computer-guided lasers in intricate patterns generated in CAD systems. Along the way, they save water and "will cut the number of chemicals it uses to produce jeans from 1,000 to a few dozen," reports Bloomberg.

237 comments

  1. Save the Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Buy clothing that is not pre-worn aka deliberately damaged before sale. It will last longer that way.

    1. Re:Save the Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buy clothing that is not pre-worn aka deliberately damaged before sale. It will last longer that way.

      Yeah, this is right up there with bottled water on the stupid products list. I patch my jeans when they get 'stressed' and recycle them or cut them up into polishing cloths when they become un-patchable. Don't do this, its' a mistake. It seems you can make some money flogging your old jeans on E-bay once they get 'stressed' because there are actually people out there who pay for ragged and worn second hand jeans. If they are the right kind of 'vintage' jeans with the correct colour thread int he seams and the right style of rivets in the all the right places, prices can go into the hundreds of dollars.

    2. Re:Save the Earth by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Buy clothing that is not pre-worn

      This isn't pre-worn, actually, is it? But you can get actual pre-worn clothing in a second-hand store - and more cheaply to boot!

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Save the Earth by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Different meaning of the word "wear."

    4. Re:Save the Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that these are actually hygienic, whereas the ones in the 2nd hand shop aren't necessarily.

    5. Re:Save the Earth by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I am not sure you you are old enough to remember the days when jeans were not pre-worn. When new they were very stiff and uncomfortable. It took weeks for them to be used enough so you felt like you were wring pants not cardboard. While some of is overdone for style, for the most part it is comfort adjustment to the clothing. Where before people would be sitting in the tub with their Jeans on so the material will shrink and fit to the body, or purchased a size larger so when it shrinks in the wash. The Chemical Washing and sanding helped make a better product.
      Some styles go a bit too far. Chemical washing them until their are nearly white, and with holes and rips. But that trend comes and goes. However they have been pre-worn for decades now.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:Save the Earth by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      I actually like that trend: it means I can keep wearing my old jeans, which were undamaged once upon a time when I bought them but have now improved to the much more classy holey version.

    7. Re:Save the Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chemical washing them until their are nearly white, and with holes and rips.

      Picking between "there", "their", and "they're" doesn't help when you're looking for "they".

    8. Re:Save the Earth by flink · · Score: 1

      You can still buy "raw" denim jeans in some brands. And yeah, they do feel like wearing poster board until you break them in. Some people like the ability to break in their jeans just the way they want. For me, I just order 511s online because I know they will fit me and I don't have to spend the day shopping.

    9. Re:Save the Earth by PixelPusher1532 · · Score: 1

      511s.... pffft. I upgraded to 550s 35 years ago and never looked back.

    10. Re:Save the Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Flint, Michigan proved you can't trust city water. Bottled water probably won't give you cancer.

    11. Re:Save the Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends where you live. In the USA I probably would'n drink tap water either, but in many places, it is cleaner than bottled water.

    12. Re:Save the Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can still buy "raw" denim jeans in some brands. And yeah, they do feel like wearing poster board until you break them in. Some people like the ability to break in their jeans just the way they want. For me, I just order 511s online because I know they will fit me and I don't have to spend the day shopping.

      What a fucking loser.

    13. Re: Save the Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what washing machines are for.

    14. Re:Save the Earth by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      And how exactly did you arrive at this ingenious concept?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    15. Re: Save the Earth by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Not only that, I'm pretty sure it's a good idea to was new articles of clothing anyway, maybe even more than the things you bought worn.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    16. Re: Save the Earth by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      "to wash..."

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  2. But! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LASERS!

    1. Re:But! by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      This.

    2. Re:But! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mounted on Sharks!!!

    3. Re: But! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of acid-washed it can be laser-washed!

    4. Re: But! by Whooty+McWhooface · · Score: 0

      Jeans with frickin' lasers!!!

      They could have just done this as an alternative, new line of jeans.

  3. Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you truly want to save the Earth, please stop buying stuffs that are not good for planet Earth

    1. Re: Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't want to save the Earth. There are too many people on it. A large culling will be good for our race. Besides, the Earth will be just fine.

    2. Re: Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > large culling

      Leftist Envirowacko detected!

    3. Re: Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another case of always seeing what one wants to see, I suppose?

    4. Re: Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL it was only a matter of time before anyone expressing misanthropy of any kind is automatically met with cries with "omg u librul!1!!??11WtfFZbbqz0rz??"

    5. Re: Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      after you then!

    6. Re: Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL it was only a matter of time before anyone expressing misanthropy of any kind is automatically met with cries with "omg u librul!1!!??11WtfFZbbqz0rz??"

      Personally, I'd rather see the population of leftists culled so we can get sanity for the rest of humanity.

    7. Re: Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who say stuff like this always assume they aren't gonna be on the cull list.

    8. Re: Up mod parent ! by richrz · · Score: 1

      Ok, YOU cull yourself first then I'll go. And they say leftists aren't self-evaluative...

    9. Re: Up mod parent ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you kill all the leftists, who's going to pay for your welfare?

  4. The video is cool by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you want to see the process on video.

    One of the cooler parts is that using software, they can now make reproducible artistic designs, designs to emphasize different body parts, text/image messages, whatever someone can dream up.

    --
    The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    1. Re:The video is cool by GrandCow · · Score: 0

      It blows my mind that people of this generation are so lazy that they won't go out and do things that get their jeans worn.

      They have to pay people to fake wear on their clothes so that other people think that the owner did things that made their clothes get worn.

      --
      "Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
    2. Re: The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This generation is hardly the first to buy pre-stressed denim.

    3. Re:The video is cool by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      If you want to see the process on video.

      And here's the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... - American innovation strikes again.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    4. Re:The video is cool by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      Ooops, sorry. That was the Chinese copy. Here's the Spanish original: https://www.youtube.com/user/j...

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    5. Re:The video is cool by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 1

      There's little to do with making people think they've done something (and they likely don't have TIME, nevermind laziness). Everything to do with the fact that, unless you only own a couple sets of pants, it can take a very long time to get them to where they look and feel "right".

      --
      "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
    6. Re: The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hey GP, if your jeans aren't stiff and flat as cardboard with an edge that could slice a watermelon, they're pre-stressed. You practically have to go to a specialty store to find stuff that isn't.

    7. Re:The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And fake wear is something new? When he was a kid in the 1950s my father and his friends would age their jeans using bleach and sand. Only difference is it's done at the factory.

    8. Re:The video is cool by ph0rk · · Score: 1

      It blows my mind that people of this generation are so lazy that they won't go out and do things that get their jeans worn.

      We can thank the boomers for preworn denim. What the hell do you think stone and acid washes were?

      --
      semantics are everything!
    9. Re:The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you own more than 2 or 3 pants?

    10. Re: The video is cool by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      I didn't think my Levis 502s were pres-stressed, and I bought them mostly because they did not appear to be.

      They have a uniform color, no edge, and if I dry them mechanically they are not stiff. Stiffness like that lasts for about a half hour anyways.

      My jeans usually last me several years, which is pretty good. MY work slacks are usually worsted wool, a terribly old-fashioned fabric that wears like iron if you treat it moderately well. Most synthetics have disappointed me, and I no longer purchase them.

      I'm not an environut, not do I trust the global warming gang one bit, but recycling and making prudent choices about products is good sense, not wasteful, and usually costs me very little more if at all. I have some terrible habits still, but relying on processed foods and throwing stuff away prematurely are not my particular defects.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    11. Re: The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That used to be true. But, have you seen how thing modern denim is? Even when I was a kid back in the '80s, the fabric had some thickness to it, never mind what it was like decades previous. I just had to toss a couple pairs of Levis out that were only a couple years old because they had worn through even though I wasn't being particularly active while wearing them.

    12. Re:The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Old Man Yells At Chair"

    13. Re: The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey GP, if your jeans aren't stiff and flat as cardboard with an edge that could slice a watermelon, they're pre-stressed. You practically have to go to a specialty store to find stuff that isn't.

      I go to Walmart

    14. Re: The video is cool by afidel · · Score: 1

      If you want quality from Levis you have to buy their specialty "Made in USA" line. They use quality denim and actually make them correctly (like the belt loops are sewed to a seam instead of a random part of the thin denim material). I was sick of my 501s dying after a year or two of use and so tried them out, won't be going back. They cost about $90-100/pair vs $40-50/pair for the run of the mill commercial crap that they produce now but they should last a least 3x as long so will be cheaper in the long run.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    15. Re: The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Levi 502s are pre-stressed, as are 99%+ of all jeans sold in the past 150 years or so.

    16. Re: The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting, thanks.

    17. Re:The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have seen this few years ago, on this even older video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIHgHWUqCyc uploaded 2009. So why I should be excited about this slashdot post? Nothing new under the laser.

    18. Re: The video is cool by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      One pair I bought was described as 'Dark Hollow', and appeared to be unwashed and not distressed. The black ones, stretch, washed but not sanded or cut.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    19. Re:The video is cool by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      I know this sounds like Get Off My Lawn, but... Jeans these days are shit, the denim is such low quality. I once had a pair of Target jeans I bought for around $20 last me nearly a decade. Nowdays just gardening over the weekends I'm lucky to get a month out of jeans before they start tearing themselves apart.

    20. Re:The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always thought the third world slave labourers they get to make these things (well until now) must have been baffled. Wait... you want us to make good quality clothes, then sand them, tumble them with rocks, dunk them in acid and shoot them with frickin' *lasers* to *increase their value*???? You westerners are crazy!

      Personally I just buy them un-destroyed then wear them until they develop holes. Usually takes 4-5 years alternate week wear until holes start appearing. But then I do something seriously uncool and patch the holes to drag another 4-5 years out of them. Typically my wardrobe has a pair of new jeans, a few pairs of ageing jeans (some with varying degrees of patching), plus some patch-donors that are too worn out to wear that I use as a source of patches. There's not much left by the time I've done with them.

    21. Re: The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to sound like an old fart here but the super-soft, barely there feel of "modern" fabrics just weirds me out. I like the heavy, slightly stiff feel of older-style denim. Modern pre-treated denim still beats suit-pant material (which is so light and slippery it feels frankly creepy) but I'd still prefer old-school.

      I think the most comfortable clothes I've ever tried on was a fake-old Victorian, allegedly period accurate suit I wore once in a dress-up dinner thing I once went to. Good weight without being too hot, completely un-shiny, slightly rough to touch but only enough to remind you it was there without being irritating. It felt great. In fact if modern suits were made of that material rather than whatever shiny glorified plastic they use I would happily wear a suit to work every day.

    22. Re:The video is cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's great, except the Spartacus laser machine in that video is more for embroidery-like applications, as it'll only cover 12 x 16 inches of area.

  5. Worn or Indigo removed? by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Imagine managing 300 to 400 people who do nothing for eight to 10 hours but to load a mannequin and then with sandpaper on their hands to begin the destruction process to remove the indigo.

    Do the lasers still damage the fibres or do they just remove the indigo or even just its colour?

    Indigo is a plant chemical that takes a specific chemical reaction to form, and needs special treatment to adhere it to the fibres. The fact that it does not adhere perfectly is what causes the specific worn look on jeans. If the fibres can be kept intact but the indigo selectively removed, you could have a pair of jeans that looks used but also can still be used for a long time.

    --
    Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    1. Re:Worn or Indigo removed? by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      No developed country has used plant indigo for a century or so. Synthetic aniline indigo is used instead, that is what made BASF the largest chemical company in the world.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    2. Re:Worn or Indigo removed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't it the same chemical though? Just synthetically produced.

    3. Re:Worn or Indigo removed? by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

      Does that change the dyeing process?

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    4. Re:Worn or Indigo removed? by dunkelfalke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually yes. The modern process is way simpler.

      https://prochemicalanddye.net/...

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    5. Re:Worn or Indigo removed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Do the lasers still damage the fibres

      They're basically burning the fibres, what do you think?

  6. Well I hope this innovation by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

    Helps them survive the trade war.

    1. Re:Well I hope this innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of the garment sanding jobs have already been shipped overseas. The clothing sanders union is a shadow of its former self.

    2. Re:Well I hope this innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gold mining is still a thing?

    3. Re: Well I hope this innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that Leviâ(TM)s moved the last of their production to China a short while ago.

    4. Re: Well I hope this innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Led by Colonel Sanders, of course

  7. And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Not that I am complaining. This process is better for (almost) everybody. But it shows how it goes with automation: A few hundred jobs lost, a few highly qualified gained. That is basically how this will work in most places. And the jobs are gone and are not coming back in some other form.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:And 300-400 workers less by tehcyder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not that I am complaining. This process is better for (almost) everybody. But it shows how it goes with automation: A few hundred jobs lost, a few highly qualified gained. That is basically how this will work in most places. And the jobs are gone and are not coming back in some other form.

      The standard slashdot response to this is along the lines of "well they should re-train as programmers and earn $300k like I do." Overlooking the fact that programming is surely one of the most easily replaced jobs once we have something even slightly close to real AI.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely they can all get jobs in laser repair and CAD ... right?

    3. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are not coming back in some other form.

      But per History, more jobs are created. Maybe not the same type but still on the net, more.

    4. Re: And 300-400 workers less by peragrin · · Score: 1

      The jobs will come back in other forms the trick is you need a different skillset. As automation continues the cost of automation will drop, and with that comes something new. Just in time, localized manufacturing.why have massive plants, and distribution. Centers when you can have a local automated maufacturing site producing only parts that are going to sell. That shortens the supply chain and saves money.

      Not all items will work for this. But most consumer goods will.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    5. Re:And 300-400 workers less by MrKaos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Overlooking the fact that programming is surely one of the most easily replaced jobs once we have something even slightly close to real AI.

      Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    6. Re:And 300-400 workers less by darthsilun · · Score: 1

      ... "well they should re-train as programmers ..." ...

      Just like all the buggy whip makers did.

    7. Re:And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Having AI doing coding is completely infeasible at this time, and not even on the distant horizon. It is unclear whether it will ever work and it is quite possible that it will not. However, there is no large need for coders. In fact, there are already far too many coders and most of them are bad. Remove the bad ones and the good ones do not get bogged down in fixing their mistakes and can easily do all coding that is needed. And that will happen sooner or later.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    8. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... programming is surely one of the most easily replaced jobs once we have something even slightly close to real AI.

      Haha. Time will tell, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for "real AI" or even "something slightly close to real AI.

    9. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why will the jobs come back ?
      The goal is to make more money = hire less workers.
      And the goal is the same for all domains (clothing, farming ,industries...)
      So why will any domain want to create new jobs ?

    10. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      History is not a reliable predictor. At some point there comes a game-changer along (hint: "computer") and historical precedent becomes worthless.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 2

      They will not. These jobs are gone. And the ones doing them cannot "retrain" upwards or they would not have been doping these bad jobs in the first place.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    12. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But per History, more jobs WERE created.

      farming => industries => offices then what ? entertainement ?

    13. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But until history actually becomes worthless, let's keep learning it and from it rather than just assume random scenarios.

      And there have actually been many "game changers" throughout history... from the wheel, lightbulb, cotten gin, sliced bread, refrigerators, assembly line, rail, airplane, etc...

      Just because "computer", an overly general term, is a bigger impact doesn't make it differ from its historical equivalents.

    14. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where did truck drivers, airplane stewards, luggage handlers, tarmac layers, silicon wafer makers, oil drillers, earset makers, cell tower technicians, etc come from?

      None of those jobs nor even the countless ones supporting them existed at one time. If you asked people at the time, they couldn't even imagine such jobs.

      Nor were there countless labor units waiting on the side to fill them. Only through automation did it free up the labor units that later worked their way into these new positions.

    15. Re:And 300-400 workers less by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.

      Common IT customer complaint, when a product is delivered:

      "Yes, that's exactly what I asked for . . . but it turns out, that it is not what I need."

      Now that's the really difficult part . . . convincing customers that what they are asking for will not really help them . . .

      . . . without losing the customer!

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    16. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can just see an AI coder complete a procedure for Cantor’s diagonalization, sit back on its thrusters, and make an AI grunt of self-realization.

    17. Re:And 300-400 workers less by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 1

      Workers surviving to the personnel reduction will be cut by the laser beam.

    18. Re: And 300-400 workers less by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      Despite saving on manufacture costs with the laser etching, the retailers will still sell the distressed jeans for $100+.

      Perhaps a new market will open for hand-sanded distressed jeans that start at $200+. DIY

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    19. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      There will soon be the need for a great number of garment inspectors, to authenticate actual 'sanded' worn denim from the laser-worn variety.
      Because the artisanal hand-worn denim will be far more in demand due to their authenticity.

      There are already people who can 'grade' old jeans, who look at thread, rivets, the label and the cut to determine a pair of jeans is authentically vintage.

    20. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Kiuas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Where did truck drivers, airplane stewards, luggage handlers, tarmac layers, silicon wafer makers, oil drillers, earset makers, cell tower technicians, etc come from?

      None of those jobs nor even the countless ones supporting them existed at one time. If you asked people at the time, they couldn't even imagine such jobs.

      No-one is saying that new job descriptions will not appear in the future. But the thing is AI - both the narrow-AI systems being developed now and in the future more generalized AI - is an entirely different shift than that of the previous 'dumb'/mechanic automation. Once AI-guided production becomes more commonplace, which will occur in the coming decades, a big chunk of humans will lose their jobs but they will also not be able to easily train themselves with a new skillset that would be of any value. The more widespread AI-based automation becomes, the cheaper it will become which will lower the marginal utility of hiring humans for most jobs. This is especially apparent on production and logistics side where humans are already most often the slowest and most inefficient part of the process. The only reason not all warehouses are fully automatic at this point is the cost, and the cost is coming down as time goes along.Once general purpose AI is reached (and there's no reason to suspect it won't be reached eventually unless one is stubborn enough to argue for some kind of a 'soul' that would make the capabilities of a human brain beyond achievable for a computerized system) then pretty much any job that requires thinking/analyzing data will be done faster and better by machines.

      It's misguided to assume that human labor will remain competitive with super-intelligent systems indefinitely. Essentially any job that requires manual precision or quality control can already be done much more efficiently by computer-aided systems than by humans, and this trend is only going to continue.

      The market does not magically optimize itself for full-employment. Humans will only be hired if they're the only way to get something done, or massively cheaper than machines. For the next 1-2 decades this will remain the case in many fields, but with the rate of advancement we're seeing already in AI and the fact that any new production facilities built in the west require a fraction of the workforce from 10-20 years ago, comparing the upcoming shift to the automation boom from the 60s onwards is not a valid comparison.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    21. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      I still recalling a professor telling me I was screwing up by not pursuing a PhD and focusing on engineering, that AI would replace me in 15 years. That was 20 years ago. It's still 15-20 years away from doing that kind of stuff.

    22. Re: And 300-400 workers less by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      Once general purpose AI is reached (and there's no reason to suspect it won't be reached eventually unless one is stubborn enough to argue for some kind of a 'soul' that would make the capabilities of a human brain beyond achievable for a computerized system) then pretty much any job that requires thinking/analyzing data will be done faster and better by machines.

      It's misguided to assume that human labor will remain competitive with super-intelligent systems indefinitely. .

      It's misguided to assume that a super-intelligent general-purpose AI is at all reachable (at least within the lifetime of anyone currently reading and commenting on Slashdot).

      There is absolutely zero (let me repeat that: zero - and again: ZERO) proof that current computer technology and AI research can produce a "general-purpose AI" (let alone super-intelligent - people forget that those two are separate things: I can easily argue that the intelligence of a cat is "general purpose", yet it is far from super-intelligent). It's currently just a mythological belief based on a lot of hand-waving. No recourse to some "soul" argument is required to argue that all of the capabilities of a brain (including, possibly, consciousness) are beyond the reach of a computer. I can easily argue that you cannot reproduce all of the functions of a biological brain in a digital computer built from semiconductors. I don't need to invoke any sort of mind-body duality philosophy or anything, just fundamental differences between organic, living biological systems and mostly inorganic, inert (non-living), electro-mechanical systems.

      Sure, you can perhaps simulate a biological system on a computer system - but no simulation is 100% accurate, and the more accurate it gets, the slower it gets. Think of just simulating digital electrical circuits - running a simulation of 1 ps of operation of a digital circuit takes longer than 1 ps. Significantly longer, like orders of magnitude longer (and I want to approach the time of 1 ps - which I can never reach - I would need ever more hardware). And realize that here I'm simulating something by itself as it were - using digital circuits to simulate themselves! Now, take an Intel CPU and run on top of it a simulation of itself. Not so fast, is it? Now think of simulating "alien" (with respect to the CPU's structure) and as yet poorly understood structures, like the brain. Start with the brain of a worm...call me when you get to a tenth of a human brain. It'll be a while.

      The myth of super-intelligent general purpose AI is based only on the belief that as computers become more powerful and are able to handle more "hidden layers" in neural networks that this super-intelligence will just magically emerge. That's just plain nonsense. Note, I am NOT saying here that automation, advanced robots, and custom-tailored AI for a large range of tasks will not replace human jobs. They will. I'm saying it will not lead to a super-intelligent general-purpose god-like AI which will outdo and replace humans in every way.

    23. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your work was "sanding jeans" then I have no sympathy when that phony job goes away. Just as I don't cry for telemarketers. Nobody really needs their jeans sanded, and I struggle to find jeans that aren't pre-worn. I don't want such idiocy.

    24. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's a bad thing? The fewer workers a company has, the better. NoOps is destroying the IT industry because a company can get rid of the rackers/stackers, and just run a business with an offshore dev team, and all the dirty IT work handled by Amazon, while the company reaps benefits from economies of scale.

      The US is at full employment already. Anyone who wants a job can find one easily. No, you may not be making $250,000 a year straight from filing the high school dropout papers, but you can find work.

      All I see on Slashdot is people complaining about companies doing their job and shedding deadweight. It isn't the fault of Levi's because they can run better with automation, nor is it Toyota's fault that their Priuses are built on an automated assembly line.

    25. Re: And 300-400 workers less by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      And the ones doing them cannot "retrain" upwards or they would not have been doping these bad jobs in the first place.

      Experience suggests that isn't the case. A lot of the time the limiting factor is not something like innate intelligence or skill, but lack of opportunity. Particularly opportunity to learn skills, but also to access better jobs.

      A lot of people seem to assume that when someone finishes school or university that's it, that's the limit of their learning capability and their career will be dictated by that. But in reality people learn in different ways, at different times in their lives. How many of us have switched careers mid-way through to something completely different?

      The problem is that when Levi makes them redundant there won't necessarily be any new opportunities. And eventually, so many people will be replaced by robots that there won't be enough opportunity no matter what.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    26. Re: And 300-400 workers less by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      >There are already people who can 'grade' old jeans, who look at thread, rivets, the label and the cut to determine a pair of jeans is authentically vintage.

      Yea, but i've already replaced them with an AI vision system that does that for less.

    27. Re:And 300-400 workers less by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.

      Common IT customer complaint, when a product is delivered:

      "Yes, that's exactly what I asked for . . . but it turns out, that it is not what I need."

      Now that's the really difficult part . . . convincing customers that what they are asking for will not really help them . . .

      . . . without losing the customer!

      Thank goodness AI is here to help us with all the difficult problems!!!

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    28. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Nick · · Score: 0

      Another reason for Universal Basic Income. Tax the robots, or the lasers in this case; the company will still get ahead and be willing to innovate. The workers without a job will have an income for survival and can pursue continued education or training in something, or freely innovate at home start their own business or invention; or; sit at home and do nothing but continue to create jobs by spending the UBI back into the economy.

      --
      Fuck Ajit Pai
    29. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AI for writing code? Probably awhile off. AI for testing code and accelerating development, already here and getting bigger. I recently tested a formal verification writer in beta and was very impressed. It suggested removal of a bunch of redundant checks and adding a bunch of missing ones. Some of the code generating software I've tested recently is amazing as well. I haven't done a large scale software deployment, but some of the rest applications I've written, and ported to multiple platforms in a couple hours would have easily taken weeks before. They're not cheap, but I suspect they'll be getting cheaper and better to the point they could take over the fat middle of app dev.

    30. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Programming is one of the last human jobs. Reason: If you can automate programming, you can automate creation of automatic systems that replace human jobs. So when programming ends, everything ends.

    31. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the standard Slashdot response is, "Whatever you do, don't go into programming as a career and tell your kids not to take it up either. There are no jobs in the West anyway, except for recent PhD's in machine learning for blockchain IoT, just lots of fake listings posted by HR."

    32. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Companies already pay taxes, instead of taxing robots we can simply increase the company tax percent. This is:
      - Done commonly
      - Easy

      Instead taxing robots:
      - Never done
      - Difficult to define what is a robot, is mouse driver a robot? If not, when does software become a robot. If you specify a line, companies will work around it.
      - Hard to monitor (how many mouse drivers does that company use?)
      - Difficult to implement (this of the person who writes tax software, instead of changing one value, one needs to implement something impossible)

      Also, when increasing company taxes, decrease salary taxes. This makes human labor cheaper so it can compete with robots for longer. Do these changes in small steps so there doesn't happen any dramatic changes.

    33. Re:And 300-400 workers less by rkordmaa · · Score: 1

      Vocations die out all the time, but work never ends, such has been the case for ever and such will be the case for foreseeable future, automation changes nothing here the same way it has changed nothing in this respect since the start of industrial revolution. Do the pants sanders have to find a new job now, yes, is it a bad thing in any way, no. It just means that there is one more stupid task humanities collective manpower need not be wasted on, in this case sanding pants. There is no limit to human greed, we always want more stuff, now that sanded jeans are less labor intensive that labor can put into use on making some other equally inane but nevertheless desirable product. To put it into market terms, manpower is limited, greed is not, ergo work will never run out because demand is limitless.

    34. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      The jobs will come back in other forms the trick is you need a different skillset.

      I hear this a lot. We have to keep in mind that the stated intent of present day automation is eliminating jobs

      The hat trick will be eliminating jobs, then eliminating whatever jobs are created by the automation, then having as close to no humans employed as is possible..

      The question is can humans do this? Certainly in a lot of the Western World, working is a core value, and having a job is considered a measure of a person's worth.

      Can society adjust to a state where most people are not performing any paid labor? Or are we going to do something nuts like a massive depopulation culling? What is the sweet spot of automation to jobs to population? If almost no one is drawing a paycheck, even a product that has been reduced to 1 percent of it's original cost is going to remain unsold.

      This is happening, and nothing is going to stop it, save for humanity bombing itself back to the stone age.

      So the last question is will this usher in a new age of personal freedom for humans to do what they want to in life, as our time becomes truly ours - or will it create the ultimate social schism, with a relatively small class of elites surrounded by people living in slums - or even an alternate economy. Or will we figure out how to efficiently kill about 7 billion useless people - using automation of course.

      Hopefully there are smart people working on this problem now.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    35. Re: And 300-400 workers less by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      40 years ago, state of the art AI was roughly equivalent to a cat in terms of what it could do. Now, it's roughly equivalent to a cat, but runs in a much smaller box. I'm not sure how you think that we can go from here to 'super-intelligent AI' in a few years.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    36. Re:And 300-400 workers less by jrumney · · Score: 1

      That's 300-400 fewer American jobs that will be lost when the rest of the world puts a tariff on US made jeans.

    37. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      They will not. These jobs are gone. And the ones doing them cannot "retrain" upwards or they would not have been doping these bad jobs in the first place.

      Exactly. Too many people have swallowed the concept that "I can be anything I want if I only try hard enough". Usually spouted by people of extraordinary abilities or teachers lying to students. Nope, everyone has limitations.

      There are a lot of people in this world who are doing well to tie their shoes in the morning.

      Whether these blue jean sanders are operating at their mental capacity, or are lacking the drive to perform a more intricate or mentally involved job is irrelevant. You can't increase capacity or drive. They will have to seek out further employment in the remaining low llevel jobs available.

      And the falloff is already happening. There are many small towns that have had their factories close down. There are young people who might move to a new place, but what does a 50 something worker do? There are no jobs locally, so you pick up your life and move to a city where no one is going to hire you anyhow? Training a 55 year old for a new career is kind of a worthless task for just that reason.

      I have a suspicion that suicide rates are going to skyrocket as suicide becomes a career path.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    38. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having transitioned from a national research lab that hired very few dedicated programmers/software engineers to an industry job at a software-focused company, I'm astounded at how bad the software talent pool is right now. We get literally thousands of applicants , and only a handful (as in, no more than 5) can answer basic questions about data structures, runtime complexity, etc. It's mind boggling, since this is stuff anyone with a CS undergrad background should have down.

    39. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is that through most of that time frame there were still useful things for the masses to do to earn a living. Originally, everybody was pretty much involved in producing food, shelter, security or raising children. That was what nearly all the work was. Then we got the food production made efficient enough for people to move to cities and produce various items and luxury items as a set of jobs that replaced the previous ones. Then machinery came in and displaced increasing numbers of workers who then had to find service sector jobs doing things that the machines couldn't do. Usually for less money and a lot less job security as most of those service sector jobs aren't essential.

      Now, we're seeing a lot of those service sector jobs starting to disappear due to automation and there isn't really anywhere to go. The concept of working a job providing service wasn't really that strange in the past, there were already people doing things like teaching and banking prior to the industrial revolution, but right now, there's no reason to believe that between computers and robotics that there is going to be some place for workers to get jobs as all that excess productivity is going to pay the richest of all people and not paid out in wages as was generally the case in the past.

    40. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't need a "general purpose AI" in order to cause widespread unemployment and starvation. A number of more specialized AI programs doing things like propaganda and managing factories would suffice.

      Perhaps we'll get to the point where it's one AI or maybe not, but either way, we've already hit the point where AI can take over a large enough number of jobs that it's going to cause major problems for the population. Making everything super cheap to produce doesn't really solve the problem of poor people getting upset and rioting in the streets because they haven't eaten in several days when the efficiency is being used to give the greedy more money without necessarily making the goods more available to the lower classes.

    41. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      And the ones doing them cannot "retrain" upwards or they would not have been doping these bad jobs in the first place.

      Experience suggests that isn't the case. A lot of the time the limiting factor is not something like innate intelligence or skill, but lack of opportunity. Particularly opportunity to learn skills, but also to access better jobs.

      I'm an aggressive person, born into a family that wasn't far from poverty. By sheer force of will, I worked myself up several "classes" on the social ladder.

      While you are correct that lack of opportunity is one of the reasons that some folks don't do better, i can assure you that on the way up the ladder, I used my assertiveness a lot more than my opportunities. And I took advantage of every opportunity that came my way.

      In this world, we have a strange dichotomy in that people are supposed to rely on the self, but any chance to blame outside forces is jumped upon like a drowning man clutches at a life preserver. On my way up and afterwards, I saw many intelligent and educated people working at menial jobs. My favorite sad example is the man my wife knows who has a degree in aerospace engineering but is a waiter in a restaurant. Or more personally, my sister who is degreed and brilliant, but never used her education, working dozens of low level jobs until her husband died and she retired off his investents. Or the neighbor who graduated as a geoliogist, but drives a taxi.

      There are many more examples, but they all have one thing in common, and that is drive

      They lack it.

      On the other hand, I was gifted/cursed with about 20 people's worth of drive. Perhaps my experience counts for nothing, but my drive has allowed me to advance myself, and change careers a few times. But the lack of drive is what keeps a lot of people from their potential. And drive simply cannot be taught. You can train a drive free person for a better/new job, but without that drive it won't work.

      . Drive isn't the reverse of laziness either. No one would accuse my examples of being lazy. They've worked throughout their adult lives.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    42. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, what do you propose we do with the people who cannot or will not train up for those jobs? Or for the folks who are living in the wrong part of the country to get these new jobs, but can't afford to move because they've got no savings?

      Also, bullshit about jobs being easy to find. The job adverts I've seen are mostly bullshit, there's a small percentage of the ads that are real ads, but they're ultra-targeted and you don't even know what requirements on the form are real and what ones are on there in order to justify hiring somebody from abroad.

    43. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Experience suggests that isn't the case.

      Whose experience? Certainly not reality's. In reality, despite all the affirmative action, all the "free" government funded education especially in Europe, all those attempts to put more girls into STEM courses, etc. we don't actually see women or minorities surpassing white (and asian) males in STEM or other fields that the left wants more women and minorities in.

      Giving people equal opportunity is nice, but it won't actually lead to equal outcomes.

      A lot of people seem to assume that when someone finishes school or university that's it

      Only a lot of people on the left. The right for the longest time were skeptical of education, championing and courting blue collar workers to their side: truckers, tradesmen, coal miners, etc.

      Trump on the campaign trail: "I love the poorly educated"

      The left are the ones who love to look down upon people purely on how much schooling they (didn't) have in the first ~20 years of their life, as evident in how they love to find anyway to pin Trump supporters as being less educated, bible thumping rural hicks.

    44. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Hehehehe, possibly.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    45. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your work was "sanding jeans" then I have no sympathy when that phony job goes away. Just as I don't cry for telemarketers. Nobody really needs their jeans sanded, and I struggle to find jeans that aren't pre-worn. I don't want such idiocy.

      Would you prefer the idiocy of your taxes increasing another 10 - 15% in order to fund welfare programs for those 300 - 400 people? Or the next 3 to 4 million put out of work?

      That's the inherent problem with the idiocy of a society hell-bent on automating humans out of employment; someone has to pay for them. No matter how pointless their job might have been, them being employed is probably better than the alternative.

    46. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Hahahaha, "NoOPS", hahahaha! Nice one. In other news, companies actually dependent on the IT are more and more in need of having people that really get it (and are expensive) on staff or as long-term available external staff, because outsourcing does not cut it.

      That said, getting rid of "dead weight" employees is not directly a problem and I did not claim it is. Bit unless you want cities burning in your country, people have to eat and have to have meaning in their lives.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    47. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer buying whips sans bugs.

    48. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget - no cost reduction for the jeans either.

    49. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's misguided to assume that a super-intelligent general-purpose AI is at all reachable

      Since half the population has an IQ under 100, it doesn't need to be _that_ intelligent to flip burgers.

    50. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Overlooking the fact that programming is surely one of the most easily replaced jobs once we have something even slightly close to real AI.

      Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.

      1st Bob: What you do at Initech is you take the specifications from the customer and bring them down to the software engineer AI?
      Tom: Yes, yes that's right.
      2nd Bob: Well then I just have to ask why can't the customers take them directly to the software AI?
      Tom: Well, I'll tell you why... because... the AI isn't good at dealing with customers...
      1st Bob: So you physically take the specs from the customer?
      Tom: Well... No. My secretary bot does that... or they're e-mailed.
      2nd Bob: So then you must physically bring them to the software AI?
      Tom: Well... No. ah sometimes.
      1st Bob: What would you say you do here?
      Tom: Look I already told you, I deal with the @#$% customers so the AI doesn't have to. I have people skills! I am good at dealing with people, can't you understand that? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!

    51. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Very true. I also think a lot of that "there will be new jobs" is people that are likely to get hit putting their heads in the sand.

      Now, I am nowhere saying this is a good development. But it is an inevitable development.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    52. Re:And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, I did an engineering PhD and I have kept current on AI for something like 30 years now. In actual reality, AI being able to do that is getting farther away. Realistically, "most certainly not in the next 50 years" (the answer a senior engineer in the Watson team gave me recently) is a lower bound. It may well be centuries away or not happening at all. It is also not true/strong AI that is threatening these jobs. It is dumb automation that could not empty a bucket of water unless specifically programmed to do so. However, as it turns out, large parts of many human jobs do not actually need intelligence and that is quite enough. That is, for example, Amazon doing away with 90 human workers, and retaining 10 (low paid ones) that do what the robots cannot do and fix the occasional screw-up by a robot. Add two human engineers to keep the robots running, and that is still 88 jobs lost permanently and only 2 upgraded from low to high pay.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    53. Re:And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. There are far too many bad coders. There may actually be enough good coders to keep things running already, but they are swamped with cleaning up behind the bad ones. This is also not a new thing: https://blog.codinghorror.com/...
      The last thing we need is more bad coders that create more problems.

      Now, I am only somewhat complaining, because this keeps me occupied and well paid, but if I have to explain to one more senior web developer ( >5 years experience) how an URL is structured, I am going to scream.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    54. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      There will not be any "super intelligent systems" anytime soon and possibly not ever. However, the majority of the human race struggles to be competitive with advanced (but utterly dumb) automation, also because automation these days is very, very fast.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    55. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I really don't understand why people keep expecting intelligence in machines. There is zero indication it can be done. The problem is still present with dumb automation, that can do maybe 95% of a human job (for example), because that means 95 of 100 people lose their jobs permanently. We do not have to go to worker-less industries to lose most jobs.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    56. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I am pretty sure we cannot. And this may be a "cannot, ever". Also the cat in question is pretty dumb.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    57. Re: And 300-400 workers less by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      The drive can be increased with medication. That's what the psychostimulants do.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    58. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of those people who you mention have a very very limited usage.

      I also knew people who you mention (ironically in aerospace engineering and geology)... Those jobs don't have very many opportunities. You can count the number of companies on a hand or two that actually need a geologist or aerospace engineer. They're almost like English or women's studies. If you can find a job there, you're set... but good luck finding one.

    59. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Migraineman · · Score: 1

      Agreed. And any possible jobs created by this technology won't be lateral-shifts for the folks whos resumes are highlighted with "5 years - sanded pants."

    60. Re: And 300-400 workers less by sjames · · Score: 1

      And there's part of the problem. Supposedly, the chronic underemployment is to be solved by super cheap consumer goods. But the goods keep not getting cheaper and salaries keep not going up. The work week keeps not getting shorter.

    61. Re: And 300-400 workers less by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      An apt comparison might be to the sharecroppers of the South just before and after WW2, when mechanization became cheaper than their labor. It left a lot of people useless.

    62. Re:And 300-400 workers less by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      (a) It's "fewer" not "less"

      (b) Those worker would probably get laid off anyway when the EU adds tariffs on Levi's jeans in retaliation to Trump's Steel/Aluminum tariff's -- though, I (and others) are speculating that he will reconsider imposing them just after the special election in Pennsylvania's 18th District (which has some steel/aluminum mills) on March 13.

      It's interesting, though, that Levi's will go directly to using automation with the lasers rather than using sharks.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    63. Re: And 300-400 workers less by jbengt · · Score: 1

      My favorite sad example is the man my wife knows who has a degree in aerospace engineering but is a waiter in a restaurant.

      Do you realize how often aerospace companies hire then lay off numbers of engineers as the cycle of work ebbs and flows? They're worse than the construction industry in that regard.

    64. Re: And 300-400 workers less by jbengt · · Score: 1
      I also knew people who you mention (ironically in aerospace engineering and geology)... Those jobs don't have very many opportunities.

      Well, I don't know about aerospace engineering demand at the moment, but mining and oil & gas companies need lots geologists, though maybe you need some specialization within geology for employment by them.

    65. Re: And 300-400 workers less by jbengt · · Score: 1

      In reality, despite all the affirmative action, all the "free" government funded education especially in Europe, all those attempts to put more girls into STEM courses, etc.

      You
      may
      be
      mistaken.

    66. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Common IT customer complaint, when a product is delivered: "Yes, that's exactly what I asked for . . . but it turns out, that it is not what I need."

      Common business solution when a client saiys they don't need what they asked for: HOLDS UP CONTRACT. "Says here you this is exactly what you agreed to pay for. If you want it changed then we can do that for you -- AFTER you pay.

    67. Re:And 300-400 workers less by sheramil · · Score: 1

      Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

    68. Re:And 300-400 workers less by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

      Ironically, this is the reason why most entertainment is so boring.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    69. Re: And 300-400 workers less by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      My favorite sad example is the man my wife knows who has a degree in aerospace engineering but is a waiter in a restaurant.

      Do you realize how often aerospace companies hire then lay off numbers of engineers as the cycle of work ebbs and flows? They're worse than the construction industry in that regard.

      I suppose that would be an okay explanation, but he preferred to be a waiter. Just not much drive.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    70. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People as selfish and cold hearted as that AC won't increase their taxes either. They don't care what happens to them. They'd rather them be dead. They are losers afterall, and usually minorities. These fuckers harbor delusions of grandeur and would like a real life game of Call of Duty. They'd love a Purge. They'll be demanding tribute for the Hunger Games. Soiciopath is just a nice way to say psychopath.

    71. Re: And 300-400 workers less by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      Yes. The concentration of wealth in the hands of the few grows & grows, and the many go wanting.... ultimately, this will lead to a challenging restructuring at the expense of all our comforts.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    72. Re: And 300-400 workers less by sjames · · Score: 1

      It can happen the easy way or the hard way. Many on the right don't understand that the New Deal isn't just because FDR felt like playing Santa Claus, it's because he knew the alternative would be really ugly. As in heads being chopped off.

    73. Re:And 300-400 workers less by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      However, as it turns out, large parts of many human jobs do not actually need intelligence and that is quite enough.

      This is the important thing many people don't consider when arguing about the benefits of automation. Machines only need to be good enough at a certain price point to get all the jobs. Nobody said they have to be as good as people -- just cheap enough to be more profitable. As such, not all the tough AI problems have to be solved, just "enough" of them. That will certainly be doable in less than 50 years or whatever.

    74. Re:And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Actually most things do not need any tough AI problems to be solved at all.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    75. Re: And 300-400 workers less by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Good luck with that.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  8. Ahh, sanded jeans. by Lisandro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For my life, i can't understand why people are willing to pay a premium for pre-worn out clothing.

    1. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Status. They're fashionable. New dark blue jeans are associated with low status people, and nobody wants to be mistaken for a low status person. Imitating high status people is very deeply ingrained in humans, for good reason.

      Yeah, the low status people that own new stuff. So buying shiny new cars also represents low status?

    2. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by BorgDrone · · Score: 1

      People like the old/worn look on denim because it implies that clothes have been used, that they have a history and that the wearer has an actual life. However, buying them pre-worn is just faking it.

    3. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by BorgDrone · · Score: 1

      Depends entirely on the circumstances.

      Take skin tan for example. It used to be that a fair skin was high-status and a tanned skin was low-status, back when poor people got a tan by working outside all day and the rich people stayed inside.

      Then it turned around, now the poor people spend inside all day working. while the rich people can afford nice holidays where they can get tanned, so no being tanned is high-status and fair skin is low-status.

      So a worn out 4WD *could* be high-status because it indicates you have lots of free time to go out and explore nature in that car.

    4. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because low class people are professionals who sit at desks all day without their crisp clean air conditioned pampered clothing, while high class people are always getting their hands dirty, kneeling while doing their manual minimum wage (or less) labor, makes complete sense.

    5. Re: Ahh, sanded jeans. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That explains the popularity of permanently-tanned Mexicans and Blacks in America. Always the highest paid executive my friend Jesus.

    6. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by ph0rk · · Score: 1

      What? Someone who doesn't get fashion on Slashdot?

      The short short version: The US is a classless society, thus we are all bootstrappy working folk at heart. We want to relax in our well-worn worker clothing, even if we don't actually have the time or patience to wear in said clothing ourselves. Or if in fact said clothing is made with ultra light stretchy material instead of heavy cotton duck and wouldn't survive long enough to look right, anyway.

      --
      semantics are everything!
    7. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always thought it meant you couldn't afford new clothes...

    8. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      For my life, i can't understand why people are willing to pay a premium for pre-worn out clothing.

      Status. They're fashionable.

      Sweet! My car is way more fashionable than I thought!

    9. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by Lisandro · · Score: 1

      What? Someone who doesn't get fashion on Slashdot? ... We want to relax in our well-worn worker clothing ...

      https://media.giphy.com/media/...

    10. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Take skin tan for example. It used to be that a fair skin was high-status and a tanned skin was low-status,"

      What about orange skin on fake billionaires?

    11. Re:Ahh, sanded jeans. by xfade551 · · Score: 1

      Back in my day, we wore our own holes into our own jeans and we liked it! Now, GET OFF MY LAWN! **presses play on a cassette deck loaded with the Nevermind album**

  9. It should say so, too! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    I thought they hired poor people to wear the jeans for six months kneeling and stuff.

    Fraud!

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:It should say so, too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They put on one pair of each size at the same time so it is pretty efficient.

    2. Re:It should say so, too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Close. I heard that they give them to people trying to enter the US illegally, then retrieve them from their desiccated corpses after they died crawling through the desert. They do not wash them before selling them. Occasionally someone finds a scorpion in a pocket.

  10. Slavery to fashion by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    Endemic in the idiot class who desperately need to believe themselves to be worthwhile. By contrast us geeks KNOW we are worthwhile, don't bother to indulge in fashion - and don't get any girl friends... So in Darwinian terms, slavery to fashion is probably a good strategy.

  11. FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I understand its fashion but deliberately weakening clothes is just STUPID!

  12. Human Sanding by mentil · · Score: 2

    Sanding down humans is SO 20th century. Now they can be ablated with lasers!

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:Human Sanding by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Sanding down humans is SO 20th century.

      Denim is out, too. I wear jeans made out of the skin of human sanders.

      It has a natural feel, and reduces the global warming caused by the CO2 normally produced by human sanders.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  13. Try to find non-pre-worn jeans nowadays by LaughingRadish · · Score: 1

    Last week I was looking at jeans in a store. It seems that this pre-worn stuff is all that's offered now anymore. Does anyone know if/where one can get actual new and un-wrecked jeans?

    1. Re:Try to find non-pre-worn jeans nowadays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Online of course. Brick and mortar stores are only for niche items. The online stores are where you get the ordinary stuff.

    2. Re:Try to find non-pre-worn jeans nowadays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only in black, and then you need to look quite a bit. The deep blue has not been available for decades.

    3. Re:Try to find non-pre-worn jeans nowadays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last week I was looking at jeans in a store. It seems that this pre-worn stuff is all that's offered now anymore. Does anyone know if/where one can get actual new and un-wrecked jeans?

      It's called raw denim, it's expensive, extremely stiff, and stains everything you sit on. You can't wash the jeans for several months. You have to buy them at the hippest, weirdest speciality stores only extreme hipsters would go to.

      All jeans have been pre stressed since the beginning of blue jeans.

  14. They seriously sandpapered jeans by hand? by ReneR · · Score: 1

    Could not imagine they produce this faded patterns like that in 2017. Sad.

  15. great! by sad_ · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now that these expensive 300-400 workers have been removed from the total cost of producing said jeans, the consumer price will surely drop.

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
    1. Re:great! by Shimbo · · Score: 1

      Now that these expensive 300-400 workers have been removed from the total cost of producing said jeans, the consumer price will surely drop.

      Unless you live in the EU: Trump trade row: EU considers tax on Levi jean imports

    2. Re:great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course the price wont drop, the general population has no clue what goes into making their jeans, or that they are being made cheaper today. They'll keep buying them at the same price or higher as they always have. Levis will just see more profit.

    3. Re:great! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Now that these expensive 300-400 workers have been removed from the total cost of producing said jeans, the consumer price will surely drop.

      You were going for funny, but when I look at the cost of Jeans now compared to 20 years ago there has been a steady drop in the cost of quality clothing over the years.

    4. Re:great! by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      Now that these expensive 300-400 workers have been removed from the total cost of producing said jeans, the consumer price will surely drop.

      It may, actually. Depends on the competition out there, and the willingness (or not) of customers to pay the same prices.

    5. Re:great! by hey! · · Score: 1

      If those salaries represent a significant fraction of the product's cost, the price should tend to drop, even for jeans made by different companies.

      To see why do this thought experiment. Suppose nothing had changed; could Levis increase it's profits by raising the price on its jeans? It certainly would raise the per unit profit sold profit, but it would sell fewer jeans. The price represents what the manufacturer believes is the optimal compromise between unit profit and quantity sold.

      Now if jeans were a generic commodity, the optimal price would drop if the per unit production price drops, representing a new optimal compromise between marginal profit and volume. The only caveat is that jeans aren't a pure commodity; a lot of their value is branding. Jeans of equivalent quality and styling from an unknown manufacturer cannot command the same prices as Levis, the same way that a Chinese-made quartz watch can't command the same price as a Rolex, even though it keeps better time. The price of an unique item can sometimes influence customer perceptions of value.

      I've seen that with proprietary software. I worked for a company struggling to sell vertical market software at $500 per seat, a price chosen by the boss to make sales a "no-brainer" for buyers. Nonetheless the cost of selling was eating up our total revenue, leaving no money left to pay for development. I convinced him that we'd be better off raising our price to $1500 and selling fewer seats given our cost of sales. To my astonishment when we raised our prices sales took off, even though nothing else changed.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    6. Re:great! by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Unless Levi has a monopoly on washed jeans, their profit will actually increase if they use the reduced cost of production to lower their price to consumers. The lower price's reduction in profit per unit is more than offset by the increase in the number of units sold (at the expense of their competitors' jeans).due to the lower price.

      That's the way economics works. Make a graph with price on the x-asis, and total profit on the y-axis. If you set the price at your production cost, you sell lots of units but make zero profit. If you set the price too high, you sell zero units and make zero profit. If you set your price in between these two, you sell some units at a profit, so you make some total profit. Draw a continuous line between these three points and you realize there has to be a certain price between these two zero-profit points which maximizes total profit. That maximum is where you try to set your price.

      If your production costs then go down, the left end of the new curve ends up being shifted closer to zero (the origin) compared to the old curve, stretching out the curve. Your old price is no longer at the point of maximum profit. The point of maximum profit has also been shifted towards the origin due to the curve's stretching, meaning your maximum profit is now at a lower price than before. So it is actually in a company's best interest to pass along cost decreases to their customers.

      So unless Levi has a monopoly, or they have someone ignorant of economics setting their prices, or jeans are not a commodity market (buyers of other brand jeans are unwilling to buy Levis instead - which is unlikely here), yes the consumer price will surely drop (or not be increased next time an inflation adjustment would have been warranted).

    7. Re:great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't make the mistake of looking up the prices of really high quality sweaters that can last from 20 to 100 years, easily. The vertigo is similar to what comes from looking up the prices of high-end headphones.

    8. Re:great! by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Cost to make only affects the minimum possible selling price. Actual selling price is more closely related to demand and competition. If there's not much competition, the price will be the highest that people will pay.

      OTOH, that's just for manufacturers. Vendors have problems with managing demand, which leads to things like loss-leaders, etc. which are sold at a price designed to attract customers, so you can sell them something else. (Sometimes instead, though that's often called bait-and-switch, and is illegal here, if not often prosecuted.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    9. Re:great! by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The mistake in your reasoning is that "stressed Jeans" is a luxury item. Notice that a lot of work went into the ability to alter the wear patterns in an artistic manner. That means the software was made a lot more complex than it had to be, and that costs.

      What this is about it letting them sell artistically designed brands. IOW, it's a luxury good. And that means that they are sole source for each design. Now they need to create a design that will catch on and they can sell at a huge markup.

      They may not be successful in this, or only mildly successful, but it will likely save them money over time anyway, so it wasn't a bad decision. But the goal is to create a fad for a design over which they have a monopoly. And the technique allows them to try lots of different designs at little additional cost. So, yes, this is about becoming a monopoly. If one of their designs really catches on, they'll make a mint. It they're only moderately successful, they'll still have increased profits.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  16. Don't expect logic in the fashion business by Viol8 · · Score: 2

    Its built entirely on emotion.

    1. Re:Don't expect logic in the fashion business by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 5, Funny

      My new product line:

      Clothing that was only pre-worn by svelte runway models, hand fed on vegan non-GMO wood pellets and rainwater direct from the skies, unsullied by man-made chemicals. Clothing whose materials are only the finest naturally grown, recycled hemp, crafted in the dark by underprivileged, overpaid tibetan monks. Clothing that is always one of a kind, and intentionally may not fit anyone perfectly to enhance our body positive vibes.

      My brand is Smug - I'm Simply Better Than You.

    2. Re:Don't expect logic in the fashion business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My new product line:

      Clothing that was only pre-worn by svelte runway models, hand fed on vegan non-GMO wood pellets and rainwater direct from the skies, unsullied by man-made chemicals. Clothing whose materials are only the finest naturally grown, recycled hemp, crafted in the dark by underprivileged, overpaid tibetan monks. Clothing that is always one of a kind, and intentionally may not fit anyone perfectly to enhance our body positive vibes.

      My brand is Smug - I'm Simply Better Than You.

      I'm guessing the models are all kids, because I don't think humans will live all that long on a diet of wood.

    3. Re:Don't expect logic in the fashion business by painandgreed · · Score: 3, Funny

      My new product line:

      Clothing that was only pre-worn by svelte runway models, hand fed on vegan non-GMO wood pellets and rainwater direct from the skies, unsullied by man-made chemicals. Clothing whose materials are only the finest naturally grown, recycled hemp, crafted in the dark by underprivileged, overpaid tibetan monks. Clothing that is always one of a kind, and intentionally may not fit anyone perfectly to enhance our body positive vibes.

      My brand is Smug - I'm Simply Better Than You.

      I'm guessing the models are all kids, because I don't think humans will live all that long on a diet of wood.

      Don't worry, it's all just a sales marketing pitch anyway. Their clothes come from the same asian workshops as everybody elses.

    4. Re:Don't expect logic in the fashion business by lsatenstein · · Score: 2

      My new product line:

      Clothing that was only pre-worn by svelte runway models, hand fed on vegan non-GMO wood pellets and rainwater direct from the skies, unsullied by man-made chemicals. Clothing whose materials are only the finest naturally grown, recycled hemp, crafted in the dark by underprivileged, overpaid tibetan monks. Clothing that is always one of a kind, and intentionally may not fit anyone perfectly to enhance our body positive vibes.

      My brand is Smug - I'm Simply Better Than You.

      I'm guessing the models are all kids, because I don't think humans will live all that long on a diet of wood.

      Don't worry, it's all just a sales marketing pitch anyway. Their clothes come from the same asian workshops as everybody elses.

      I am pushing age 80. My problem with jeans is the rise. I am not a teenager and I need more than having the belt sit on my waist. There is nothing more embarrassing than leaning over and the rear cheek halves show down to my crotch. I need that extra inch of rise so that the belt tightens the jean waist at least two fingers high above my hip bones. I also don't want leg/hip huggies. When I got to pee, I want to pee in the urinal, not half and half.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    5. Re:Don't expect logic in the fashion business by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      unsullied by man-made chemicals.

      An all-too-rare case of someone who actually uses words whose meaning they understand.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  17. Yes, but... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

    How much does it cost to keep and train the sharks to hold still?

    1. Re:Yes, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another question is what kinds of patterns different shark species would naturally create? "Humans are food" would certainly be something that Carcharhinus longimanus would write on the jeans. Levi Strauss have a difficult selection process to make, and not every fish will survive it. Maybe the HR and legal departments can be utilized to help in the fish tanks?

    2. Re:Yes, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Due to budget cuts, they are using ill tempered sea bass instead of sharks.

  18. Sandpaper? Not Sandblasting? by twms2h · · Score: 1

    I remember a report (no idea where and when) about young people in Turkey who got serious health problems because they where sandblasting jeans and the sand got into their lungs.

    1. Re:Sandpaper? Not Sandblasting? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Here you go. Looks like it's been banned and 'legit' jeans companies don't allow it, but it's hard to control and there are illegal "jeans sand blasters" because it's so much cheaper to do it that way.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  19. New retraining solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Retrain these workers to sand wear patterns on distressed buggy whips!

  20. Hard part is training the frikken' sharks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The hard part is training the frikken' sharks to run the laser properly - they keep trying to shoot each other.

  21. Simply get the word out... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...that you have a big dick, and you will never lack for pussy. You might have to bang a few fatties or uglies at the start to prime the sexual gossip pump, but that's a small price to pay for prime future pussy.

    Unless you DON'T have a big dick. Then yeah, you have no hope.

  22. Target, probably Walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't find Levi's that aren't pre-worn, but Target has store brand or lesser know jeans like Lee that are just denim, no treatment. You can get them with thick or thin fabric, usually. I think I've also seen plain denim jeans at Costco.

    1. Re:Target, probably Walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll second Target as a good place to get new jeans from. I get Wranglers for $20 a pair, blemish-free. I went to Bloomingdale's once (I have no idea why anymore) and I saw some hand-me-down jeans for $500. You can't fix stupid.

    2. Re:Target, probably Walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot ate my "less than" sign. I get Wrangers for under twenty dollars a pair, is what I meant to say.

    3. Re:Target, probably Walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find Lee jeans fit much better than Levi's, I've used them exclusively for years. They also have a good range of colors, styles, etc. They are at Target but not exclusively, I've seen them in plenty of other stores. Knowing my size/fit/style I now just order them online.

  23. AI by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    More evidence AI is taking our jobs. My dad was a jeans distresser and so was my grandad. I was a jeans distresser. I have now been replaced by AI jeans distressers. What am I supposed to do, retrain as a jeans bleacher? No one even wears bleached jeans in 2018.

    1. Re:AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Retrain as an engineer. Duh!

      All you have to do is compete with 300-400 former coworkers for the 3-4 newly created jobs.

    2. Re:AI by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Sanding blue jeans all day makes you at least qualified to be on Slashdot's network Ops team.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  24. prefer to 'relic' them myself... by advocate_one · · Score: 2

    just like I do my Guitars...

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    1. Re:prefer to 'relic' them myself... by leathered · · Score: 1

      As well as jeans I don't understand the whole 'relic' thing with guitars, either. Yes it's sort of nice picking up a genuine vintage instrument and seeing the scrapes and dings, buckle rash, cigarette burns etc and wondering what sort of life it had. Knowing that someone picked a brand new instrument off the shelf and beat the crap out of it to get the same effect just turns me cold.

      --
      For all intensive porpoises your a bunch of rediculous loosers
  25. so, does this reduce appeal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For example, every pair were hand rubbed which essentially gives them an authenticity and unique element...does using a laser make them less "unique". Say one worker was more agitated that day, and took out their frustration on some pairs of jeans. Just sayin that balance is nice to have...a teeter totter with an automated"second person" isn't the same!

  26. Levis has been crap for 20 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Coincidentially right around the time Chinese money flooded American capital and ruined everything. Totally coincidential.

  27. What's wrong with new blue jeans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This really is a first world problem.

    No normal person would buy new clothes that looked worn out.

    1. Re:What's wrong with new blue jeans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you not been in a mall in the last 20-30 years? preworn clothes have been all the rage for that long if not longer.

    2. Re: What's wrong with new blue jeans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are these âoemallsâ that you speak of?

  28. According to many here by houghi · · Score: 1

    According to many here, from what has been posted in the past, this is not an issue as they all just will take a job as "laser maintenance and repair" person.
    Or this is somehow different to people who will lose their job when cars start to become self driving.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  29. Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by damn_registrars · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I always used to buy my jeans from Levi's, and many years ago they were some of the most consistently manufactured jeans around - in particular, when most of their manufacturing was done in the USA. Much more recently I went to buy two pairs of (theoretically) identical jeans - same cut, same waist, same inseam, differing only by color - and they could have hardly been less similar when I tried them on. Then I checked the tag and realized one pair was made in South America and the other in Southeast Asia - again on the rack they differed only in color. Yet one was uncomfortably tight to button and the other was so loose in the waist that it would nearly fall off of me without a belt.

    Their customer service has not been terribly useful either.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This phenomenon is not limited to Levi's. I've had similar experience with different colors being a different fit in other brands. My wife says it applies to all clothing, too, not just jeans.

    2. Re:Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much more recently I went to buy two pairs of (theoretically) identical jeans - same cut, same waist, same inseam, differing only by color - and they could have hardly been less similar when I tried them on. Then I checked the tag and realized one pair was made in South America and the other in Southeast Asia - again on the rack they differed only in color. Yet one was uncomfortably tight to button and the other was so loose in the waist that it would nearly fall off of me without a belt.

      I thought that by now 3D scanning and automated factories should be providing everyone with custom-tailored clothing at mass production prices. That seems no closer than flying cars.

    3. Re:Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, it used to be that you could simply grab a few pairs off the shelf that were in your size and not even need to try them on before taking them home.

    4. Re:Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      I thought that by now 3D scanning and automated factories should be providing everyone with custom-tailored clothing at mass production prices. That seems no closer than flying cars.

      I believe the technology is here. But the problems lies in that people of the off-the-rack generation don't understand the value of custom tailored clothing, so the demand isn't there.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    5. Re:Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is there to understand? If you can't make two pairs of jeans the same, how would to build them to any other standard? What's the point of sending you my size, when my size a freakin' Levi's standard 32x34 and they can't produce that with any regularity?

    6. Re:Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      What is there to understand? If you can't make two pairs of jeans the same, how would to build them to any other standard?

      You can make two pairs of jeans the same, but at a different production cost than Levi's currently enjoys.

      It's not that the capabilities doesn't exist. It's that they don't give a shit. Partially because consumers don't give a shit about anything beyond how their clothes cost or how their clothes look in advertisements on people with exceptional bodies.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    7. Re:Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The real (current) problem is getting an accurate 3-D scan of a person before the clothing is built. (It would also still be a lot more expensive, but some people would pay for that.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re:Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Totally agree.

      It's not just sizing and cut, either. It's stitching and denim quality, too. One pair of jeans will be the dependable, rugged pair I remember from decades ago, another pair will be made of thin fabric and belt loops that rip off at first use.

  30. You jest, but.... by DumbSwede · · Score: 1

    Your post suggests that all productivity improvements go only into corporate coffers and no real price decreases. However here is how it works in the real world. There is still inflation, the costs of making jeans will rise due to other factors and, yes, for a short time the company may reap increased profits, in the long run it will be forced to keep its prices lower than it would have otherwise or lose market share. Also it could be that buying the lasers and developing the tech will mean that it may be some years before it realizes all those said profits, by which time inflation or competition from someone else who has had productivity gains as well and has been able to lower costs (or keep them the same) will force them to keep prices lower than they otherwise would have been.

    This isn’t to say there isn’t corporate greed, but lets not act like every productivity gain is an evil thing of no benefit to consumers.

    As to displaced workers hopefully Levi is large enough to shuffle most to other activities. If not and they are treated very unfairly during termination, then Levi can feel the rightfully backlash of public scorn at that time.

    1. Re:You jest, but.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *laughs in Imaginary Property*

  31. Will it cut the volume by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    Will it cut the volume of chemicals used or just the variety?

  32. Actually, a very positive development by gchat · · Score: 1

    I remember seeing a documentary a few years ago were it stated that sanding (or otherwise known as sandblasting) has been outlawed in almost all developed countries because it develops incurable lung diseases on the workers. Only a few 3rd world countries still allow this process. I also doubt that the workers in those countries are aware of the problem that they are risking their lives for a few bugs.

    1. Re:Actually, a very positive development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they are risking their lives for a few bugs.

      What sort of bugs are those?

    2. Re:Actually, a very positive development by gchat · · Score: 1

      Yeah you're right. Damn autocomplete... *BUCKS

    3. Re:Actually, a very positive development by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      It's not 'outlawed', just regulated. Lung protection is required.

      The solution is simply a media other than sand. Ground nut shells, baking soda etc etc. 'Sand' blasting is relatively uncommon.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  33. Idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only idiots buy pre-worn jeans.

  34. Try working a day in your life by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    Then you won't need to have someone sand your jeans for you.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  35. Wore my first set of Levis since 2001 by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    last Saturday and it was a pair of Levis Big Bang phat pants. Wore them to an old school Acid Techno/House rave.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  36. Markets need consumers (employed people) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we envision this trend continuing, what does that mean for the market for mass-produced products? Who buys them? Do we end up with vast quantities of efficiently produced products that an ever increasing mass of unemployed people can't even buy? How does that help the bottom line?

  37. o noes by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

    And I bet their all cut using a big die press

  38. 1000 chemicals for sanding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What effect dosanding chemicals have on workers?

    What effect do those trace amounts of sanding chemicals have on consumers?

  39. Yes, but then the AI will not need us by aberglas · · Score: 1

    Once the AI can program itself, a good 50 years away, people will be obsolete technology. Why would the robots want to keep parasitic humans around?

    1. Re:Yes, but then the AI will not need us by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Where does this moronic idea that "AI can program itself" come from? There is zero indication this is even theoretically possible. Or rather there is strong theoretical indication this is not possible.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Yes, but then the AI will not need us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, they certainly cannot do this today, so obviously they will never be able to do it in the future.

      The only reason that we can program computers is because of super natural processes that happen in our brains.

  40. We have history for computers by aberglas · · Score: 1

    60 years ago, when Parkinson wrote his great paper, there were no computers. Things like banks and tax offices ran entirely by hand. Rows of clerks, possibly with mechanical adding machines.

    But those bureaucracies have grown, not shrunk. That is a clear, amazing fact. All that computer organization over 60 years has produced no reduction in the size of bureaucracies. Not cynical, but actually true.

    For unlike the finite capacity for the human gut, our desire for rules and regulations, processes and procedures knows no bounds.

    As Parkinson pointed out, the size of a bureaucracy is governed by many factors, none of which relate to the amount of work to be performed. So as machines free up productive labour, they will all just end up being petty bureaucrats. Which does not require any great intelligence, just conformity with an ever growing body of rules.

  41. Flight of the Conchords! by jensend · · Score: 1

    They're turning kids into slaves;
    They're turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers.
    But what's the real cost?
    'Cause the sneakers don't seem that much cheaper.
    Why are we still paying so much for sneakers
    When you got little kid slaves making them?
    What are your overheads?