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Project Gutenberg Blocks German Users After Outrageous Court Ruling (teleread.org)

Slashdot reader David Rothman writes: The oldest public domain publisher in the world, Project Gutenberg, has blocked German users after an outrageous legal ruling saying this American nonprofit must obey German copyright law... Imagine the technical issues for fragile, cash-strapped public domain organizations -- worrying not only about updated databases covering all the world's countries, but also applying the results to distribution. TeleRead carries two views on the German case involving a Holtzbrinck subsidiary...

Significantly, older books provide just a tiny fraction of the revenue of megaconglomerates like Holtzbrinck but are essential to students of literature and indeed to students in general. What's more, as illustrated by the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act in the U.S., copyright law in most countries tends to reflect the wishes and power of lobbyists more than it does the commonweal. Ideally the travails of Project Gutenberg will encourage tech companies, students, teachers, librarians and others to step up their efforts against oppressive copyright laws. While writers and publishers deserve fair compensation, let's focus more on the needs of living creators and less on the estates of authors dead for many decades. The three authors involved in the German case are Heinrich Mann (died in 1950), Thomas Mann (1955) and Alfred Döblin (1957).

One solution in the U.S. and elsewhere for modern creators would be national library endowments... Meanwhile, it would be very fitting for Google and other deep-pocketed corporations with an interest in a global Internet and more balanced copyright to help Gutenberg finance its battle. Law schools, other academics, educators and librarians should also offer assistance.

155 of 265 comments (clear)

  1. Germany.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    What a bunch of Copyright Naz......

    1. Re:Germany.... by Optic7 · · Score: 2

      naz...guls?

  2. Escalating renewal fees by jonsmirl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First 20 years free. Then an escalating payment is required for each 20 year renewal afterward. Simply requiring a payment will solve the orphan works problem. This solution also lets Disney keep Mickey under copyright forever if they keep paying the escalating renewal fees. This is a simple solution to keeping commercially profitable works under copyright and letting everything else revert to the public domain.

    1. Re:Escalating renewal fees by jonsmirl · · Score: 4, Informative

      Also note that the payment database creates an authoritative record of what is protected and what isn't.

      This 150 years automatically for free is ridiculous. Copyright works turn into culture after a while. We can't have our entire culture being owned. Consider that photos and recordings of WWII will be under copyright until after most of us are dead.

    2. Re:Escalating renewal fees by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 2

      First 20 years free. Then an escalating payment is required for each 20 year renewal afterward. Simply requiring a payment will solve the orphan works problem. This solution also lets Disney keep Mickey under copyright forever if they keep paying the escalating renewal fees. This is a simple solution to keeping commercially profitable works under copyright and letting everything else revert to the public domain.

      I have argued a variation on this here before, although 20 years will simply never work in the USA. My proposal is that we support the Bono Act, as bad as it is, and then make copyrights renewable for 10 year increments for massively increasing fees. Anybody who won't pay the fee sees their stuff go into public domain. You could start at $100,000 for the first renewal and then multiply each subsequent renewal by 10. The renewal after $100,000 is $1 million, then $10 million and so on. If somebody is actually willing to pay millions of dollars for something that has already been under copyright for over 75 years, let them, but make the price keep going up. Eventually they'll stop paying. Even Disney wouldn't pay $1 billion to renew Steamboat Willie - their shareholders would riot.

    3. Re:Escalating renewal fees by Wycliffe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      First 20 years free. Then an escalating payment is required for each 20 year renewal afterward. Simply requiring a payment will solve the orphan works problem. This solution also lets Disney keep Mickey under copyright forever if they keep paying the escalating renewal fees. This is a simple solution to keeping commercially profitable works under copyright and letting everything else revert to the public domain.

      Although this is better than the current system, I don't see why we need to allow extensions at all. Patents don't allow extensions. 20 years seems to be plenty of time for a creator to be fairly compensated for their work. Most people who do work for hire only get compensated when they actually do the work. Residual income is great but it makes no sense to have indefinite residual income for something you created 2 decades ago.

    4. Re:Escalating renewal fees by jonsmirl · · Score: 1

      I would prefer to see a short 20 years period which would quickly separate out public domain stuff that people don't care about. That's the whole orphan work problem -- after a work is 50 years old it becomes almost impossible to track down the copyright holders and ask for permission.

      Then maybe move to 10 year renewals at something along the lines of $1000, $5000, $10000, $15000, etc. Note that Disney probably has 100,000 works they want to keep protected. They are going to have to pay a renewal fee on each of those. Everything from movies to coloring books to costumes to dolls. We're not trying to make it impossible for Disney, just make it harder. Clearly Disney will keep paying these fees for movies with multi-million dollar investments, but they will probably stop paying them on lesser items like a coloring book.

      You also need to consider the music industry. I want to set things up so that most 30 year old music will become public domain. Sure the big rights holders will renew the fees on the big hits, but millions of lesser tracks will fall into the public domain - unlike the current situation where 99% of all recorded music is locked up. The goal here is to push 40 year old works that generate $5,000 or less in annual revenue out into the public domain instead of leaving them locked up and maybe selling a few copies a year - if any.

    5. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Even Disney wouldn't pay $1 billion to renew Steamboat Willie - their shareholders would riot.
      As long as they make more than $1B in revenues, of course they will pay.
      And particular will throw law suits against infringers.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      20 years seems to be plenty of time for a creator to be fairly compensated for their work.
      No, usually it is not.

      Most musicians don't even make a single buck in that period. Or look at eBook authors. Why the funk would you restrict an ebook author to 20 years of selling his book? Or in other words allow his competitors to sell it, too?

      I would add a kind of blockchain to digital goods. If the good gets transferred all in the blockchain get a fraction of the "profit".

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    7. Re:Escalating renewal fees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you don't end up fabulously rich & famous in the free 20 years it must not have been the best story ever.

    8. Re:Escalating renewal fees by fafalone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Uh, yes we absolutely should make it impossible for Disney to retain perpetual copyrights no matter how much they're willing to pay. And the original 14 years is more than generous enough now that distribution is orders of magnitude faster than when that was enacted; so much so there shouldn't even be a renewal. Copyright is supposed to be a bargain to promote the arts, you've clearly fallen into the modern interpretation of it being a means for corporations to print money. There's no benefit to anyone except Disney for keeping Mickey locked up for centuries-- it's ludicrous to suggest limiting copyright to a term that covers 99% of total revenue for 99% of all works would discourage continued development.

    9. Re: Escalating renewal fees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Um, yes, because you're asking the government to enforce your copyright for you.

      In other words, if you write the best story ever, do with it whatever you want , and remember that everyone to whom you give a copy can also do with it whatever THEY want unless you have a copyright...

      So if that story is valuable to you , you might want to play by the rules to get protection.

      The other poster's idea is great - for a commercially valuable works the escalating fees won't be a problem , and if it's not commercially valuable why would you need continued protection anyway?

    10. Re:Escalating renewal fees by nctritech · · Score: 2

      No, we need to use the same thing as for patents. 10 years, then a single optional 10-year extension if filed for. There is no reason or excuse for copyright ever being longer than that. Copyright is supposed to encourage creation of works which doesn't happen if you can milk your existing works for decades or (as is the case for many works as it stands today) well over a century.

      A rich public domain is a critical component of society. Don't believe me? Most of Disney's most popular works are ripped off from old novels that fell into the public domain a long time ago. Without the public domain, there would be no Disney, now one of the biggest media companies on the entire planet. Ironic that Disney now wants us to never be able to do the same thing with Disney's works even though their entire business was derived from the works of others.

    11. Re:Escalating renewal fees by nctritech · · Score: 1

      "A god given right to your money no matter if you desire their precious work of art or not" like the media tax in some countries that increases the price of blank drives, discs, or tapes, and goes to major rightsholder corporations to "compensate" them for personal copying of their works that MIGHT be done with said blank drives? I always thought those media taxes were total bullshit.

    12. Re:Escalating renewal fees by nctritech · · Score: 2

      Musicians who don't make money off their music within 20 years have that problem because they partner with major labels that spend all the album revenue for them, or they simply don't get paid in the first place while their money goes back into labels' pockets.

      Why would I restrict an eBook author to 20 years of selling? Well, I wouldn't. I'd restrict them to 20 years of copyright monopoly. They can still sell to anyone who will buy after the eBook is in the public domain, they just can't stop others from using the content as they please. Of all the media to pick as an example for justifying unethically long copyright terms, eBooks may be the worst way to go. Most eBooks are junk books hastily assembled to make a buck and don't have much in the way of literary or artistic value.

      If you can't make money off of an artistic work within 20 years, there's a strong chance that your work simply sucks or you suck at marketing it. Neither of those are good justifications for long copyright terms; if anything, they're a good justification for shorter terms since you'll be further compelled to make something that's newer and better instead of trying to sell your sucky eBook for your entire life.

    13. Re:Escalating renewal fees by epine · · Score: 1

      Even Disney wouldn't pay $1 billion to renew Steamboat Willie - their shareholders would riot.

      But it's not just the Disney shareholders behind this.

      America considers Finance, Hollywood, and Silicon Valley as three of their rock stars in a balance of trade war that isn't going any better lately than that little skirmish in Afghanistan.

      Nationalistic American elites would sooner cut off a hand than hobble any of these industries.

      Perhaps Big Pharma belongs on this list, too, but I don't track the ups and downs of this volatile sector with enough regularity to presently know.

    14. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 3, Interesting

      they just can't stop others from using the content as they please.
      And exactly this is wrong in my opinion.

      Why feed a disney with free material to exploit to make movies? Sorry, if they want to use a book, and make a movie from it, they should pay.

      If you can't make money off of an artistic work within 20 years, there's a strong chance that your work simply sucks or you suck at marketing it.
      Of course. But what has sucking me in marketing to do with your idea that you can exploit my work for free?

      you'll be further compelled to make something that's newer and better instead of trying to sell your sucky eBook for your entire life.
      Are you really such an idiot?

      How exactly does one make a living, by working 40h the week, to pay his rent and feed the kids, and spend another 20h to write his eBook? And then you come and say: hey if he can not market it, it must suck? And now as he spent so much time for a work that sells bad at the moment he should write a new work?

      https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      The united states should just switch to the german/european model. And then you for funk sake ask the original author or his heirs for permission and let them participate on the profits you make. I'm funk tired about this free rider attitude when it comes to copyrights in the US. You can not feed your poor, because you don't want higher taxes ... or what ever. But then again you want everything for free someone else made. Just because of "copyrights are to long" ????

      Tolkien made nearly no money at all during his life time. Sure, his works sucked in some way, but now they are world literature. And the movies brought in billions.
      Do you really think it is fair to not have the family participate in the revenue LOTR made?

      I don't.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    15. Re: Escalating renewal fees by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      If your story was so good, people would be happy to pay you to read it.

      But it isn't. I doubt you have ever made any literary contribution to humankind.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    16. Re:Escalating renewal fees by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      > How exactly does one make a living, by working 40h the week, to pay his rent and feed the kids, and spend another 20h to write his eBook?

      The same way as someone working 40h/week, to pay his rent and feed the kids, and spend another 20h learning to become a dentist ?

    17. Re:Escalating renewal fees by swillden · · Score: 1

      Do you really think it is fair to not have the family participate in the revenue LOTR made?

      Yes, I really think it is fair that the family not receive money for what granddad did. They should make their own way in the world, not ride on the fruits of his labor. It's fine to give your descendants a leg up in the world, but not to support them for generations. Yes, I'm also in favor of steep estate taxes.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    18. Re:Escalating renewal fees by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Of course. But what has sucking me in marketing to do with your idea that you can exploit my work for free?

      The deal is this: for "20 years" (or whatever) you are granted a monopoly on the reproduction of your works. The government will spend time, money, and effort, to the extent of imprisoning or even killing violators of your monopoly, during that term.

      The exchange for that protection is that after the term is up, anybody can use it. According to popular legal theories[2] 'the government' is really just 'the people' who vote for it, so the people who protected you get some recompense.

      If you'd rather forego the monopoly and try to stop people from duplicating your ideas on your own, that would be another option - don't register a copyright[1] and don't ask for any government monopolies, and then you get as long a term as you can sustain on your own.

      The idea that there should be a free lunch for authors because their work is more important than the work of the guy who put the axle on the author's car is incredibly self-serving and egotistical.

      [1] the Berne Convention somewhat broke the idea that copyright registrations are meaningful distinguishers.
      [2] I prefer the one that government cannot threaten violence, for the way I put my ink on my paper, because those are real property rights. This idea is unpopular among authors.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    19. Re:Escalating renewal fees by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      By making the content available for viewing, you inherently agreed to your country's social contract that it would become public domain after a limited period. Don't like the terms and conditions? Then you can always find another country to emigrate to that does have copyright laws more compatible with your wishes.

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
    20. Re:Escalating renewal fees by Miamicanes · · Score: 2

      Even IF "Steamboat Willie" became public domain tomorrow, all that would REALLY mean is that you could scan & digitize the original & put it on Youtube without risking Disney's wrath. Attempting to create NEW works involving Mickey Mouse based upon Steamboat Willie would be nearly impossible... 99% of what we think of as canonical "Mickey Mouse" came LONG after Steamboat Willie, and the majority of it will be protected by trademark law as long as Disney's army of lawyers keep up with their paperwork.

      Ditto, for Cinderella & Snow White. Yeah, the Grimm Brothers wrote the originals... but if you're American (or European, or otherwise grew up with Disney inextricably woven into your childhood's culture), probably 90% of what YOU think of as "Snow White" or "Cinderella" is REALLY "Disney's Snow White" or "Disney's Cinderella".

    21. Re:Escalating renewal fees by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Of course. But what has sucking me in marketing to do with your idea that you can exploit my work for free?

      You've got it backwards. Why do you think you should be able to control a published work just because you created it?

      In the absence of copyright, works are in the public domain immediately upon creation, and in a more practical sense once they've been shown to someone (the broadest sense of publication). Though no one has a right to compel anyone to create works, or to publish works, once a work is created, and published, everyone has an equal right to use it, including commercially. It's an application of free speech and free press.

      If you want everyone else in the world to give that up, even just as to particular works, you'd better be offering something more valuable in exchange. Otherwise there's no reason why your self-interestedness as an author should outweigh everyone else's self-interestedness as readers.

      Ultimately, what you should wind up with is a purely utilitarian system in which the public, via the government (which is the servant of the public, if it's legitimate) grants a copyright on the premise that giving an author a temporary, limited monopoly with regard to the work will encourage the creation of more works, which will then enter the public domain in a timely fashion. But you don't want to grant these things willy-nilly; copyrights should only be granted when necessary to cause a work to be created and published; works that would be created and published anyway don't need and don't deserve copyrights. So you put the burden on the authors to apply for a copyright; if they do, it suggests that copyright was a necessary incentive, and if not, it clearly indicates that the author didn't care about copyright, and neither should anyone else. Further, you've got to get the balance right -- you want to provide the least amount of incentive (i.e. duration and scope of copyright) that yields the most amount of public benefit (i.e. most number of works created and most public freedom soonest with regard to those works). Since different types of works will require different incentives, and one author will differ from another, a system of short renewal terms is best, capped depending on the type of work. That way, when the author who initially cared about copyright stops caring, you get the work into the public domain sooner than if you had to wait the whole term length each and every time.

      Which brings us back to your question: In practice, most of the economic value a work has is realized very quickly upon publication in a given medium. For example, books sell most of the copies they'll ever sell within about 18 months of first publication. Newspapers probably have the shortest commercial lives, of just a few hours. Movies and textbooks tend to last a long time. Since copyright is a purely economic incentive -- and only offers an opportunity to make money at that, rather than guaranteed money -- that a maximum possible term of 20 years, including renewals, is more than enough of a chance to spur authors to create. Perhaps there's a few who need more, but on the whole, if their demands for incentives are too high, it's just not worth it to society to give it to them.

      The united states should just switch to the german/european model.

      Nonsense. The European copyright model is asinine; they should abandon it and switch to ours. Or at least the world should abandon copyright treaties with the exception of agreeing to offer national treatment and to work together to avoid conflicts where the prerequisites for copyright set up mutually exclusive systems. If Germany is foolish and wants to offer long copyrights, let them do so in Germany, to anyone who wants to get one there. Meanwhile other countries can behave more pragmatically and do what's best for their own citizens, which could even be no copyright at all.

      Tolkien made nearly no money at all during his life time.

      So? If he cared more about money, he probably should've wo

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    22. Re:Escalating renewal fees by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      No, the copyrights are the foundations of the trademarks; once the copyrights go, many of the trademarks -- certainly the ones that stop people from creating new works -- will go too.

      There have been cases that dealt with this from the similar interaction of patents and trademarks (Kellogg Co. v. National Biscuit Co., 305 U.S. 111 (1938)) and there's solid caselaw that trademarks are inferior to and not substitutes or work-alikes for copyright (Dastar Corp. v. Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp., 539 U.S. 23 (2003)).

      The gist of the idea is that trademarks only exist if the holder can control the quality of marked goods. If everyone else suddenly has a right to create new Mickey Mouse cartoons because the copyright expires, the holder can't control the quality of the marked goods, so the trademark goes generic. Disney knows this perfectly well.

      Granted, under Silverman vs CBS, 870 F.2d 40 (2d Cir. 1989) you'd only get to use the elements of the Mickey character that were in the public domain cartoon -- so black and white, mischievous, doesn't look vaguely like a chimp with mouse ears -- but you can do a lot with that. Hell, after many years of ignoring the character, Disney itself has been making some excellent Mickey Mouse short films lately, which can be seen on YouTube.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    23. Re:Escalating renewal fees by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      Yeah, pretty much any creative endeavour requires a lot of reuse of previous works, perhaps even unconsciously. By requiring license for reuse they make barrier to entry high, so only rich could contribute to culture, or at least people blessed by the rich and ideologically conformant. That was always the purpose of copyright, interests of authors was just a side story to sell it to the public. So just reducing the term is pointless, there's no objective "fair" term and it cannot be ever derived since the whole idea of copyright is illogical due to its genesis. Abolition is the only sane possibility.

    24. Re:Escalating renewal fees by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Gives a whole different meaning to "cultural appropriation"...

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    25. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      You've got it backwards. Why do you think you should be able to control a published work just because you created it?
      Because it is a natural thing. If you buy cloth and make a shirt it is your shirt. If I buy paper and write it is my book.
      Why should publishing the book give anyone the right to make a copy? Make a movie from it?

      So you got it backward :D

      I certainly see nothing wrong with exploiting authors, so long as they have a choice.
      And I think exploiting other humans and not letting them participate on your success of exploitation is a crime.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    26. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The deal is this: for "20 years" (or whatever) you are granted a monopoly on the reproduction of your works.
      In the USA.
      In Europe it is 70 years after the authors death, varies a bit by country, though.

      The deal is this: for "20 years" (or whatever) you are granted a monopoly on the reproduction of your works. The government will spend time, money, and effort, to the extent of imprisoning or even killing violators of your monopoly, during that term.
      Again, in the USA. Not so in Europe. Unless it is one of the new DMCA bullshit.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    27. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Actually no,
      because as a dentist you have a guaranteed income.
      As an eBook writer not.

      However I never heard that you can do a dentist course in an evening course.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    28. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      In Europe we have no "public domain".
      And in Europe we have no "the company who pays the author takes it all".

      Your views on copyright is clouded by the retarded US copyright where a company like disney can exploit your stupid laws.

      In Europe the laws are to protect the creators.
      In USA the laws are to protect the exploiters.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    29. Re:Escalating renewal fees by nctritech · · Score: 1

      You did not read the link and do not understand what you are trolling about, so have fun arguing into the ether.

    30. Re:Escalating renewal fees by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Because it is a natural thing. If you buy cloth and make a shirt it is your shirt.

      An amusing example, given that clothes are not natural things.

      What's natural is that people constantly copy, alter, and distribute information amongst themselves. If you tell a story, there is nothing in nature that prevents me from retelling it, and nothing in nature that prevents me from changing it or adapting it as I see fit. In fact, this is basically how all creative endeavor operated in the vast majority of human history.

      Copyright, OTOH, only began to appear in the 18th century, and then was very localized for a long time, not spreading widely until the mid-late 19th and early 20th centuries, and then largely due to colonization efforts by European countries, rather than due to any actual merits of the idea.

      There's a fairly well-known quote from Thomas Jefferson about this. He was speaking about patents, but the same logic applies to copyright and it's been widely cited in that context too:

      It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it. Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody.

      For you to tell me that after I have heard your story that I cannot retell it and cannot change it, because it "belongs" to you and you alone, for no better reason than that you originated it, is profoundly unnatural.

      It might be tolerable, under the right circumstances (just as we tolerate the concept of private property to a degree and within certain limits) but it still needs to be justified.

      You've utterly failed to justify it here. All that's come through is that you are overwhelmingly and uncommonly greedy. You've provided no one with any reason why they should want to cater to your base desires.

      You should really think about it from the opposite position: given that you literally cannot have an enforceable copyright unless everyone else cooperates and agrees to let you do it (otherwise they just ignore you and run over you, like people would ignore someone who claims to own the moon or be king of the oceans), you need to think of a reason th

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    31. Re:Escalating renewal fees by hawk · · Score: 1

      >Yeah, the Grimm Brothers wrote the originals..

      AFAIK, the Grimm brothers didn't write *any* of them--they gathered and tend existing folk tales into the written forms we know.

      And the Grimm versions often have little in common with Disney (can you imagine a mid-century disney cartoon where at the wedding, they pull red-hot iron shoes from the forge and force the villain to dance until she dies? Or birds pecking the eyes of the villains out? or . . .)

      hawk
      hawk

    32. Re:Escalating renewal fees by swillden · · Score: 1

      “If Jaycee is capable, he can make his own money. If he is not, then he will just be wasting my money.” – Jackie Chan on why he wont be passing down his fortune.

      Yep. Bill Gates and many others have done the same. Give your kids all the opportunities you can while they're gowing up, a stable, loving home life, opportunities to learn and grow and do things, excellent healthcare and the best education you can. If after all that, they still can't make their own success, then they shouldn't have it. Not that you should leave them to die in a gutter, if that's what it comes to. It's fine for parents to act as a safety net. But if the kids want to live well, they need to do it themselves.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    33. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Copyright emerged around 0 BC/AC.

      Famous copyright cases are e.g.Albrecht Duerrers around 1450.

      You should really think about it from the opposite position: given that you literally cannot have an enforceable copyright unless everyone else cooperates and agrees to let you do
      As you already pointed out: owning land is the same phantasy. So what is your point?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    34. Re:Escalating renewal fees by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      I don't need to read the link.
      In EU we have no concept of "public domain", so how could it be relevant?
      If you want to make an argument then make it, instead of reffering to a "link".

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    35. Re:Escalating renewal fees by nctritech · · Score: 1

      You not understanding something doesn't make it less valid. Perhaps if you took the time to understand fundamental concepts you would have something to say other than the textual equivalent of stamping your feet like an angry child who isn't getting their way. This conversation is over.

    36. Re:Escalating renewal fees by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Famous copyright cases are e.g.Albrecht Duerrers around 1450.

      That wasn't copyright, that was trademark. Raimondi was allowed to continue making copies of Dürer's work so long as he didn't copy the signature too.

      Also, prior to the Statute of Anne, copyright was typically either a Stationers' Copyright (i.e. a monopolistic restraint of trade where publishers who didn't create works would agree amongst themselves who had the right to print them so that they didn't have to compete with each other -- the authors weren't particularly important), or just a special-case patent, whereby a specific author could get a monopoly because they were friends with the King or had connections. Such patents tended to be granted for other things too -- the Elizabethan playing card patent is an infamous example that resulted in the Case of Monopolies (aka Darcy v. Allein) that is the foundation of antitrust law.

      As you already pointed out: owning land is the same phantasy. So what is your point?

      Thanks for conceding the point that copyright is not natural.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  3. Americans don't have the high ground by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    America is the driving force behind copyright extensions and indeed copyright itself all over the world. This is just one of very few situations where works are locked away longer in a foreign country than in the USA.

    1. Re:Americans don't have the high ground by SEE · · Score: 1

      You lying sack of shit.

      The Berne Convention established life-plus-50 in (among other countries) Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the United Kingdom in 1887. The US didn't match that term until the Copyright Act of 1976, just short of ninety years later.

      Then? The EU (including, of course, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the United Kingdom) extended copyright to life+70 in 1993, and the US didn't match that until 1998, five years later. The EU extension, incidentally, didn't merely extend the copyright of still-active copyrights; it retroactively yanked material from the public domain.

  4. The outrageous part isn't really the ruling... by Anubis350 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The outrageous part isn't really the ruling... that's about access, and while it's problematic, the root outrage here should be the ridiculous length of copyright in the western world in general, companies still profiting or restricting access and it's decades after the author has passed

    --
    "goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
  5. American courts do the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    American courts were first to apply american rules to the whole world for their own benefit. Now when the role are reversed an american website tell us it's now all bad. I say at this point this is only justice an American organisation feel a bit of heat. Also, them thinking they are somehow essential to the whole world is typical american hubris.

    1. Re:American courts do the same by Solandri · · Score: 2, Informative

      No they haven't. That case has just reached the U.S. Supreme Court, with previous lower courts ruling against the U.S. government trying to apply U.S. law overseas. In fact, that was the whole point of putting POWs from the Afghanistan war in a prison in Guantanamo Bay. The U.S. base there is actually in Cuba, on lease since the Spanish-American War. The Bush administration knew if they brought these POWs into the U.S., they'd automatically get U.S. Constitutional rights - numerous Supreme Court rulings have stated that everyone in U.S. soil enjoys Constitutional protection, even illegal aliens, but that that protection ends at the border. So Bush hoped to prevent that by keeping them outside U.S. soil. - because U.S. law does not apply outside U.S. territory. (The U.S. Supreme Court eventually decided since the U.S. had total control over what happened in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, it was the same thing as U.S. soil even if the U.S. didn't actually own it.)

      It's France which is spearheading the effort to apply national laws to the rest of the world. Their case is under consideration by the top EU court, so a decision in favor of France would make the EU complicit as well.

    2. Re:American courts do the same by jeti · · Score: 1

      The US got New Zealand to arrest Kim Dotkom and freeze his assets even though Megaupload was registered in Hong Kong. AFAIK he is still fighting extradition to the US.

    3. Re:American courts do the same by DJNeuron · · Score: 1

      Wrong target for your ire, methinks. Project Gutenberg?

  6. Tell to Kim Dotcom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    *Shrug*

    Tell that to Kim Dotcom, a German born New Zealand citizen and resident, about the US copyright.

    1. Re:Tell to Kim Dotcom by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      *Shrug*

      Tell that to Kim Dotcom, a German born New Zealand citizen and resident, about the US copyright.

      Anger the Oligarchs of The Hegemony and you will pay the price.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  7. This whole thing is very simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The German decision that if a book is written in German means Germany has jurisdiction is the issue here. The courts told MacMillan that they should go to the US to sue because the web site has a physical presence there and so does MacMillan. MacMillan said no, we want to sue here because we may win due to EU copyright laws. The German court then had to come up with some reason to keep the suit because MacMillan couldn't show that the copyright was even infringed in Germany. They did and then came up with the language thing. Mostly from their bottom. This will now set precedence of language being the way to get companies to be sued in your country even if they don't have a physical presence. Look forward to companies getting dragged cross border for stupid shit now because.the manual for something was written in your local language.

    1. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That's not the way copyright law works. If I write a book in the U.S. and somebody in India makes copies of it illegally, I can't sue for violation of U.S. law, because a person in India is not bound by U.S. law. I would have to sue for violation of India's copyright law. International treaties (Berne et al) provide a set of guiding principles for how the laws in India must be written. However, if India's law is more lax than U.S. law, I don't get to apply U.S. law to an action that happened in India.

      So no, this is not a red herring. The entire notion that an organization in one country can be sued for violations of the law in another country is a fundamental affront to the viability of the Internet as a whole, and simply cannot be tolerated. You don't get to arbitrarily choose your venue based on where you think you might win, and the language in which a book was written does not create any sort of nexus in any sane universe.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      As of February 2018, there are 175 states that are parties to the Berne Convention. This includes 172 UN member states plus the Cook Islands, the Holy See and Niue.

      That's a creative way of dancing around the fact that the United States is not a party to it.

    3. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Jesus, fuck. Do you have reading problem?

      On 1 March 1989, the U.S. Berne Convention Implementation Act of 1988 was enacted, and the U.S. Senate advised and consented to ratification of the treaty, making the United States a party to the Berne Convention,

    4. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      If I write a book in the U.S. and somebody in India makes copies of it illegally, I can't sue for violation of U.S. law, because a person in India is not bound by U.S. law.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      The map in the upper right corner shows you where it is valid. I guess you can recognize Africa and Australia? The country in the middle of it, looking like a V poking its nose into the Indian Ocean, that is India. It is blue isn't it?

      So yes, you can sue and get your claim recognized in India. No idea if you have to sue in India or in US, though.

      The entire notion that an organization in one country can be sued for violations of the law in another country is a fundamental affront to the viability of the Internet as a whole, and simply cannot be tolerated.
      Well, but this is not the case here ... and it has nothing to do with internet anyway. Except that Gutenberg.org distributes its archive via internet. They would be sued as well if they distributed printed copies or audio books.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    5. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      No, that's exactly how copyright works internationally.

      Nothing you just said counters anything I said in any way. No one is questioning whether the works in question are governed by Berne Convention copyright requirements, which U.S. law greatly exceeds. The Berne Convention does NOT give you the right to apply copyright law in one country over people over another. Rather, it prescribes a minimum level of copyright enforcement that each country's laws must comply with. U.S. law goes way beyond those minimum requirements, so if your claim is that you can somehow use U.S. noncompliance to allow a change of venue, yeah, good luck with that.

      It also enforces a requirement that countries recognize copyrights held by the citizens of all other parties to the convention.

      That's a bad way of wording that, which leads to misunderstanding. The Berne Convention does not require that foreign copyright laws be applied. Rather, it requires that works created in foreign countries be given the same copyright protection that they would get if they were written in that country. So under the terms of the Berne Convention, unless they can prove that copyright was violated in Germany by Project Gutenberg, the laws of the United States apply (because PG is alleged to have violated the copyright in the United States), and the works are protected just as they would be if the work had been written in the United States.

      The only exception I'm aware of is that once a copyright expires in the country of origin, it is no longer protected by copyright even in countries where the law provides for longer terms. But if the copyright expires in a foreign country, the laws of the country of origin don't override that.

      What we're seeing here is a company trying to use German courts to apply German law to what was, in reality, an alleged violation of United States law, not German law. That's completely and totally improper behavior, and I'm reasonably confident that if they try to enforce any judgment in an American courtroom, the judge will laugh them all the way back to Germany.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    6. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      So yes, you can sue and get your claim recognized in India. No idea if you have to sue in India or in US, though.

      You have to sue where the violation took place, and it has to be based on violation of the law where the violation took place. Which is exactly what I said.

      The Berne convention requires that a country extend their own copyright law protections to works made in other signatory countries, ensuring that they are treated with the same amount of protection that they would have if they had been made locally. It does not extend the reach of any country's copyright laws over citizens of any other country.

      For example, suppose U.S. law changed so that copyright lasted for life + 200 years, but India law only allowed only for the Berne minimum (life + 50). Under the terms of the Berne Convention, my copyright would still expire in India 50 years after I die, not 200. You get the minimum term of the country of origin or the country where the copies were made.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    7. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The Berne convention requires that a country extend their own copyright law protections to works made in other signatory countries, ensuring that they are treated with the same amount of protection that they would have if they had been made locally
      Unfortunately wrong.

      See:
      However, if the identity of the author becomes known, the copyright term for known authors (50 years after death) applies.[7]

      However it varies on the type of work. As I'm only interested in software and books, I don't know the details :D
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I said nothing about pseudonymous works, but if you read the very next line on Wikipedia after the bit you quoted, you'll see that I am correct:

      "Although the Berne Convention states that the copyright law of the country where copyright is claimed shall be applied, Article 7(8) states that "unless the legislation of that country otherwise provides, the term shall not exceed the term fixed in the country of origin of the work",[7]".

      Notice that "the country where copyright is claimed" is contrasted with "the country of origin", which is to say that they are explicitly not the same country. Parsed correctly, that sentence means that the law in the country where the violation was alleged to have occurred applies by default unless the rules in the country of origin are more lax.

      The paragraph in question is talking about the opposite of what I was referring to in the GP post — specifically that if the country of origin no longer recognizes a copyright as valid, then no other country is expected to continue to recognize it unless that other country explicitly passes laws that say that the longer term should apply for such imports.

      In other words, local copyright law always applies, but by default, it applies only if the work is still under copyright in the country of origin. Once a work passes into the public domain in its country of origin, absent explicit laws to the contrary in some other country, it is public domain everywhere.

      For example, U.S. law currently allows copyright for life + 70 years. If India changed its law to allow copyright for life + 200, unless the law in India explicitly says that the life + 200 policy applies to works even if after they become public domain in their country of origin, the copyright term in India for an American work would be life + 70, rather than the longer life + 200 allowed by India's hypothetical law.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    9. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      "Although the Berne Convention states that the copyright law of the country where copyright is claimed shall be applied, Article 7(8) states that "unless the legislation of that country otherwise provides, the term shall not exceed the term fixed in the country of origin of the work",[7]".

      Notice that "the country where copyright is claimed" is contrasted with "the country of origin", which is to say that they are explicitly not the same country. Parsed correctly, that sentence means that the law in the country where the violation was alleged to have occurred applies by default unless the rules in the country of origin are more lax.
      And that means that the laws of Germany apply for the works in question.
      No ida why you disagree.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    10. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      No, it means the law of the country where the violation is alleged to have occurred (the United States) apply.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:This whole thing is very simple. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Hard to say, I thought it means the law of the land where you make your claim applies.

      Anyway, your first post in the thread was that you are out of luck to have a favourable court ruling in India. You were wrong about that :D that was my main point.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  8. Re:Wonâ(TM)t somebody think of the organizati by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 2

    You should be able to break German law all you like if you don't have anything to do with Germany.

    --

    How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
  9. Re:Wonâ(TM)t somebody think of the organizati by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, the issue is that every outlying country shouldn't get to determine worldwide copyright law for everyone else on the internet. It's bad enough that the U.S. has such sway on internet copyright. Now Germany wants to take it even further?

    So what happens when Botswana decides that copyright lasts forever, huh?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  10. Perhaps by nospam007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "While writers and publishers deserve fair compensation, "

    But not their great grand-children.

    1. Re:Perhaps by Wycliffe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "While writers and publishers deserve fair compensation, "

      But not their great grand-children.

      Exactly. And furthermore why should certain activities have longer protections that others? If I do a work for hire whether it is building a deck or writing an app, I get paid and that's it. If I create a new product, I get patent protection for 20 years and that's it. Why is copyright protection so much longer than other activities? If you publish a book or movie then you should be able to sell it for 20 years and then it should immediately go to the public domain and people should be allowed to make derivatives, stream it, etc... free of charge. 20 years exclusive rights for something you create is plenty fair and is much longer than most other forms of work.

    2. Re:Perhaps by nctritech · · Score: 1

      In your restaurant examples, the money comes in because you're constantly doing new work providing new products and services on a constant basis. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about, because once you write the book and publish it, you get to sit on your fat ass and write nothing else while the checks come pouring in. You don't do anything of value after the book is done that justifies 120+ years of making money off of it existing. You're not even printing the damned thing, you're just sitting on your ass watching said ass grow larger. Meanwhile, the guy in the restaurant example is cooking food, ordering items, stocking, cleaning the facilities, paying employees, and generally participating in the local economy and society every single day.

      Reserve your commentary for subjects you actually understand.

    3. Re: Perhaps by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      You really need a sharp stake driven through your ass.

      Perhaps you should leave aside your thoughts re: penetrating his ass...

    4. Re:Perhaps by nctritech · · Score: 1

      Nope. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The ravings of a lunatic, nothing more.

    5. Re:Perhaps by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      If I do a work for hire whether it is building a deck or writing an app, I get paid and that's it.

      If you do a work for hire, there's one person who's paying you. If you are an author, there isn't one person who just pays for everything -- you actually need to sell the book again and again to make back the time you spent on it.

      If I create a new product, I get patent protection for 20 years and that's it.

      There's a huge difference between copyright and patent.

      Patent law was designed to prevent factory machinery designs being kept secret. Factory owners were inventing better and better machines, but keeping them secret so that they would retain competitive advantage. Some designs died with their owners. Patents protection was invented to encourage inventors to document their creations while preventing others from using them, but then to allow the next inventor to create a better machine without being blocked by the patent.

      A book isn't a machine or technique, so it's not like technological advancement is hanging on being able to use a copyright work.

      (That's not to say I don't think copyright terms aren't too long.)

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    6. Re:Perhaps by grep+-v+'.*'+* · · Score: 1

      "While writers and publishers deserve fair compensation, " But not their great grand-children.

      Exactly.

      Pray tell, what to do about the impending impending human/computer convergence - The Singularity, when you don't die, you're still around and you kinda ARE your own great grandchild?

      Plant your brain in a new body? Clone yourself with DNA? How old fashioned, move on up to The Cloud and use CloneZilla, snapshots, or just start yourself up (!!) another Docker Personality Instance. Gives a who new meaning to schizophrenia or to Dissociative identity disorder.

      At that point money will stop being the in-game comparison metric, it'll change to how big you are. (In bytes.) Hell, corporations will end up being People while People won't be.

      --
      If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
    7. Re:Perhaps by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      No. The writers deserve a chance. (The publishers deserve nothing, but don't worry; they'll steal the writers' chances) There's no guarantee. If your work is unpopular, you have no right to expect anything for it.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    8. Re:Perhaps by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      That's true, there is no moral difference -- property rights are just as artificial and just as utilitarian in nature.

      If I say that I own the Brooklyn Bridge everyone laughs. If I have a big enough army helping me to protect the Brooklyn Bridge, no one's laughing anymore. It's how the west was won.

      Likewise, there's no reason why we can't impose substantial inheritance taxes (both to raise revenue and to deter the societal harm of substantial inherited wealth and the class divisions and wasted human capital it generates) so that your kids and grandkids do not inherit the house unless they've made enough money by their own efforts that they can afford it.

      It's just in your mind that you think that property is some sort of natural right as opposed to the product of common consensus backed up with force.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    9. Re:Perhaps by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      It's just in ones mind that you think that property is some sort of natural right as opposed to the product of common consensus backed up with force.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    10. Re:Perhaps by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      There's a huge difference between copyright and patent.

      A book isn't a machine or technique, so it's not like technological advancement is hanging on being able to use a copyright work.

      I think they are very similar. In both cases the advantage of the public domain is derivative works. Look at Disney. Many of their movies are based on stories in the public domain. Same with Shakespeare. There are a ton of derivative stories based on Shakespeare stories.
      Copyright and patents serve the same purpose. They both allow a limited monopoly to encourage society to produce. The vast majority of works get most of their revenue in the first 20 years. This is plenty of time to encourage production and it's doubtful people would not publish something because they *only* have protection for 20 years. Very few business plans hinge on not being profitable for the first 20 years.

  11. Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I am all for shorter copyright and public domain, but everybody must obey the law. If you provide a service in a particular country, you must do that lawfully.

    And, while it is true that corporations and lobbyists shape the laws in the US, that is much less so in European countries. So calling the court decision outrageous for insisting on this simple principle is counterproductive.

  12. Re:I don't know. by ranton · · Score: 5, Informative

    I don't know what to think because the article doesn't even describe what enforcement options are open to Germany in this case. Of course Germany can claim whatever jurisdiction they want. They could claim copyright protection on Jupiter's moons for all I care. The only thing that matters is what enforcement options the US government provides Germany based on our trade agreements and other arrangements.

    The article seems to say that there isn't anything Germany can do other than pressure the US government to do something, so if that is true I could hardly care less about this ruling. China and Russia and Europe (and wherever) can make whatever crazy rules they want as long as the US government doesn't allow US companies and citizens to be restricted by them while operating outside of those countries.

    --
    -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
  13. Seems reasonable by ET3D · · Score: 2

    I agree that copyright terms are a problem, but as long as they're the law, I don't see the problem with forcing websites to conform to the standard, assuming that all they're being asked for is blocking by IP.

    Project Gutenberg claimed that the German language works are for consumption of German readers in the US, so blocking German users seems to be in line with that.

    1. Re:Seems reasonable by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      As I mostly download english versions, I don't care.

      Project Gutenberg claimed that the German language works are for consumption of German readers in the US,
      Then the next law suit will be in the US. US has signed the Bern Convention, hence the European copyright rules hold for european works, even in the USA.

      Sucks that so many people here talk trash who never even bothered to learnt the basics about copyright how greatly it differs in other countries from the stupid american idea of "work for hire".

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    2. Re:Seems reasonable by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      As I mostly download english versions

      I don't see how the language affects how easy they are to colour in.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Seems reasonable by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 3, Interesting

      US has signed the Bern Convention, hence the European copyright rules hold for european works, even in the USA.

      No. We signed it but don't take it seriously. The Berne (there's an extra 'e') Convention has no independent legal effect here. Copyright is fundamentally national law; each nation might be obligated under the treaty to pass particular laws, but they're meant to do it themselves.

      In the US we even have a law that says that Berne is not a law that people can enforce. It's 17 USC 104(c), if you're curious.

      We also don't comply with it. Our "moral rights" statute at 17 USC 106A is mere lip service and our infamous exceptions to copyright at 17 USC 110(5) (allowing for public performance of certain works without a license) not only violates it, but there was a lawsuit against the US at the WTO, we lost, and we still haven't done a damn thing about it because we don't care.

      Sucks that so many people here talk trash who never even bothered to learnt the basics about copyright how greatly it differs in other countries from the stupid american idea of "work for hire".

      I'm a lawyer, practiced copyright law for years, not only did I study it in regular law school, but also got a master's degree in it. I'm reasonably familiar with how it differs. I also know that the US has the best fundamental principles of copyright law, even if our implementation is lacking, and that the entire European copyright model is crap. Knowing more than the basics helps me talk a higher level of trash.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    4. Re:Seems reasonable by ET3D · · Score: 1

      Would be cool if you could expand on why the European model is crap and the US one is good. (Not judging; I really want to know.)

    5. Re:Seems reasonable by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Because he has a master degree in law and says so!

      I prefer the european model :D Not only because I'm european but because it makes more sense and gives more power to the creators, and less to the evil companies :D

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:Seems reasonable by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Fundamentally it comes down to four things, which I touched on elsewhere.

      First, the US model acknowledges that there is a natural right of all people to freely copy works, to freely change works, and to freely share (distribute, perform, and display) works. All without needing anyone's permission, and without needing to pay (beyond the cost of raw materials, like paper to write on, or clay to sculpt with). Copyright is understood to be contrary to this natural order of things, but to be, perhaps, tolerable all the same.

      Second, the US model is founded on utilitarian and market-based principles. Consider: 1) Everyone has the sort of natural freedoms described above; 2) Everyone wants there to be more creative works created and published (so that they can enjoy them and apply their freedoms to them by copying, altering, and sharing, as they see fit); 3) It's not a good idea for the government or any centralized authority to promote certain works over others -- people should get to choose what to create and distribute, and what to enjoy, copy, alter, and distribute; 4) It may be worthwhile, in the interest of achieving greater happiness to accept temporary restrictions.

      Third, this results in a system where while we acknowledge that authors are not inherently entitled to copyrights, we can grant copyrights -- that is, rights to restrict what others can do with regard to copying, altering, and sharing works -- that even though they have negative effects on the populace, have greater positive effects down the road. The idea is, if there are no copyrights (as was the case worldwide until about 1710, and then, only in England, and later elsewhere) we know a certain number of works will still be created and published and enjoyed freely by all. Ancient authors around the world had no copyrights, Cervantes had no copyrights, Shakespeare had no copyrights, Wu Cheng'en had no copyrights, the concept just wasn't there. (Well, actually the basic idea was present in a joke that ancient Greeks told, but it was just for laughs) But the number of works created and published is somewhat limited. Hard to know how much our historical experience is tangled up in state and religious censorship, lower levels of technology revolving around things like printing and paper-making, and lower literacy rates, but probably some but not many works would be created and published.

      So consider point 2 from a couple of paragraphs above: In a world with no copyrights, the common desire for lots of works is not well-satisfied, but the desire for freedom as to those works is completely satisfied. What happens if we grant a copyright -- a right to prevent others from enjoying freedom as to works -- for a brief period of time? It incentivizes people to be authors who weren't before, and it encourages the creation and publication of more works, since the authors can charge people to do what they otherwise could do for free.

      Since we know that most works have a short economic lifetime (usually some months, but sometimes as little as hours and sometimes as much as a decent span of years), we know that this economically incentivizing effect of copyright will taper off fairly quickly. For example, the most popular book published in 1928 was The Bridge of San Luis Rey, which is one of those rarities that has long-lasting popularity and is still often read. The second most popular book that year was Wintersmoon by Hugh Walpole. It's kind of a dramatic romance. Hugely popular at the time, now quite obscure. And yet that too was rare in that it was popular at all. Most works are just never popular at all, but we'll get back to that shortly. The point is that Wintersmoon (if it was timely renewed) is still copyrighted in the US. But for no good reason since basically no one reads it.

      Thus, we know that we want to be stingy with copyright, since its existence harms and offends the public and we don't want to do that needlessly. We must carefully balance the incentivizing effect of copyright agains the freedom of people with r

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    7. Re:Seems reasonable by ET3D · · Score: 1

      Thanks. Quite interesting. Although in practice there doesn't seem to be much difference, and quite a bit of variation seems to exist in Europe (for example if I am to believe this DVD copying page). The original intentions might be good, but I don't think there's that much of them left.

    8. Re:Seems reasonable by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Although in practice there doesn't seem to be much difference

      It was much more noticeable prior to the 1976 Copyright Act becoming effective in 1978.

      Under the 1909 Copyright Act (still largely written by the various publishing industries, but not as bad), you saw features such as works being thrown into the public domain automatically if they were published without a copyright registration having been filed, copyright terms that were much shorter and of fixed duration, with a renewal that had to be timely applied for (and that rarely was).

      The 1976 Act was designed to ape the minimum requirements of the Berne Convention, as the excuse for increased protection was that it was somehow in the interests of Americans to 'harmonize' our law with the rest of the world. Not that it had ever been a problem that we didn't before.

      The pendulum is beginning to swing the other way now; the publishing industries got greedy and reached too far and brought copyright to the attention of the ordinary public who, while tolerant of the idea, are usually radically in disagreement with the implementation.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  14. Re:Wonâ(TM)t somebody think of the organizati by thsths · · Score: 2

    Except that the authors of the books are German, and under contract with German publishers. I would agree if this had nothing to do with Germany, but that would be really hard to argue in this case.

  15. Re:Wonâ(TM)t somebody think of the organizati by thsths · · Score: 2

    And why, o enlightened slashdot poster, should the US have the right to determine internet copyright, but nobody else?

  16. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by fibonacci8 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The authors of the books were also under contract to publish the books in the United States, and elsewhere, and in those jurisdictions the books have since entered the public domain. In the United States, from which Project Gutenberg operates, the books in question entered the public domain prior to the equivalent in Germany. If the authors had only published in Germany, the German court would clearly have jurisdiction. As they entered multiple agreements contractually, it's not so clear as the plaintiff claims.

    --
    Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
  17. Re:Wonâ(TM)t somebody think of the organizati by fibonacci8 · · Score: 1

    Because the books were published in both Germany and the United States. If they were published in Botswana, then your red herring would be relevant. The German court appears to be conflating distribution with publishing.

    --
    Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
  18. Re:Wonâ(TM)t somebody think of the organizati by Entrope · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The authors of these books have been dead for 60+ years. I don't they have valid contacts with anyone, not that the existence of such contacts has anything to do with the enforceability of copyrights.

  19. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by ZorinLynx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In this particular case the authors of the books are dead, and have been pushing up daisies for a very long time.

    It's ridiculous to keep copyright enforced so long after the authors are gone. Copyright should expire; it's a sad testament to greed that these ridiculous lawsuits aren't thrown out.

  20. Huh, interesting... by XSportSeeker · · Score: 5, Informative

    Gutenberg was german, he invented the printed press process with movable type, which effectively took literacy as a skill away from nobles and the church and started a revolution of book access to the masses. He died largely unknown and with merrits unrecognized.

    1. Re:Huh, interesting... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, more interesting is the synergy between Martin Lutter who translated the Bible into german.
      The books Lutter distributed were mainly printed by Gutenberg.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  21. Re:I don't know. by samkass · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Basically, there are a bunch of people who just want stuff for free.

    * The Gutenberg crowd wants people to give them their books for nothing.

    * The publishers want people to give them money for nothing.

    You're all a bunch of wankers.

    The US Constitution grants the power to the Government "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." Note "for a limited Times". It's the right of the creator of a work to get paid for it for awhile, but after a time it is owned by Humanity and yes, everyone should be able to copy it for free. All Project Gutenberg seems to want is for the "limited Times" to not keep getting extended indefinitely, and to be judged under the Constitution of the country in which they live and operate.

    --
    E pluribus unum
  22. Re:I'm Shocked by fibonacci8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You've got that the wrong way around...
    Imagine having to obey Singapore's littering laws in the United States.
    Suppose you bought a brand of tissue available in both Singapore and the United States.
    The packaging has a label that contains English, Malay, Tamil, and Mandarin.
    You then discarded it in a public area in the United States.
    You post videos to Facebook and someone in Singapore notices you discarding a tissue.
    You then receive notice that you have a trial date in Singapore because the brand of tissue is available there.

    --
    Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
  23. Re:You're not wrong, but it's a bad approach to li by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    You are supposed to turn to politicians and say THERE OUTTA BE A LAW! That's how it works in a democracy.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  24. Re:Let me fix that for you by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

    Read this image and realize the fail of your "fix". The reality is, you cannot graduate high school, enter college, or even apply for the vast amount of white-collar jobs in China without at least a moderate level of English mastery. China wants to learn English - desperately - because it IS the de-facto International language.

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  25. commonweal(th?) versus authors by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    What's more, as illustrated by the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act in the U.S., copyright law in most countries tends to reflect the wishes and power of lobbyists more than it does the commonweal.
    In Europe there never was an idea to balance "commonweal" (I guess that should be commonwealth?) versus author rights.
    Bottom line we have no copyrights but moral rights.
    That means the "copyright" more precisely "moralright" or "authors right" sticks with the original creator. And he hands out licenses to publishers and similar entities to "copy" it.

    And that is valid ... uh, roughly 70 years after the death of the author or something like that.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  26. Re:Let me fix that for you by gman003 · · Score: 1

    Mandarin is Sino-Tibetan, not Indo-European.

    Also, while the People's Republic of China's international influence is growing, their language is not growing similarly. Few people are learning Mandarin in order to better speak with Chinese people - rather, Chinese people are learning English in order to better speak with the rest of the world. The only real growth area for Mandarin comes from displacing other Sino-Tibetan languages within PRC borders - trying to displace Cantonese from Hong Kong, or exterminate the regional languages of the provinces that aren't very happy being in the PRC. In fact, Mandarin is probably in net negative growth right now - you can wander the halls of a Chinese university and overhear people conversing in English, because all the academic publications are in English and they learned all their terminology as English.

  27. Re:I'm Shocked by moronoxyd · · Score: 1

    You've got that the wrong way around...

    Imagine having to obey Singapore's littering laws in the United States.

    The German court did not as Project Gutenberg to make any changes for users from the US. PG is only supposed to make works that are still copyrighted in Germany inaccessible for users with German IPs.

  28. Re:I don't know. by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why should Project Gutenberg have to block German users? If Germany wants to go to the expense of building a Great Firewall, let it do so.

  29. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

    and in those jurisdictions the books have since entered the public domain.
    No they have not. If at all the english translations "might" have.

    The USA is a signer of the Bern Convention, hence the original German acts are still under copyright.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  30. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    it's a sad testament to greed that these ridiculous lawsuits aren't thrown out.
    In this case, we have a law. So the law suit can not be thrown out :D

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  31. Re:I don't know. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    In Europe the times don't get extended indefinitely.

    They are like this since hundreds of years. ~70 years after the death of the author.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  32. Re:I don't know. by fazig · · Score: 1

    Blocking Gutenberg is really the only thing that Germany could actively do in such a case. And Germany has no leverage here, because Gutenberg is not dependent on doing business with Germany. And as far as I know American companies also do hold the rights for the titles that are published there, hence it's not an actual case of copyright infringement if they choose to reduce the prices to 0. So Gutenberg went ahead and blocked them - good move Project Gutenberg. And I say that as a German.

  33. Yeah, It Would Be Fitting, But... by careysub · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile, it would be very fitting for Google and other deep-pocketed corporations with an interest in a global Internet and more balanced copyright to help Gutenberg finance its battle.

    Google has lost all interest in the original mission to which it once referred of making knowledge available to the world (along with its watch-phrase "Don't be evil").

    The near-death of the Google Books project is the poster child for this. Google actually won the lawsuit that the Authors Guild had waged against it for putting books, with limited search of snippets, on Google Books, and Google has a millions of out of copyright, out of print books - virtually inaccessible to the world - that it has already scanned and can be put on Google Books in the entirety to make them available to the world any time it likes. But it has dropped plans to do that. Books are still being added I read, but at a slow pace - not a priority. There are an estimated 25 million such inaccessible books out there that could be scanned and added, doubling the size of Google Books.

    Google losing interest in supporting public access to published works shows up in lots of ways. It stopped updated the Google Books history page in 2007, its books blog has disappeared, its really useful NGram viewer stopped updating in 2008.

    (And lately it was one of the five principle corporate sponsors of the CPAC wingnut festival.)

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    1. Re:Yeah, It Would Be Fitting, But... by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Google is notorious for its lack of an attention sp- LOOK A SQUIRREL!

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:Yeah, It Would Be Fitting, But... by Robotech_Master · · Score: 2

      Google never had plans to do that. From the outset, Google always said it was just scanning the books to make them searchable, not downloadable (save for works in the public domain).

      Making orphan works available was the Authors Guild's idea, but it was shot down by the judge because the AG didn't have sufficient authority to make that kind of deal.

      --
      Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
  34. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

    However, Project Gutenberg does very very little to promote the fact that copyright terms are different in different countries. It would have been pretty trivial to set up the site with an awareness of international terms and dynamically generate correct copyright information for any users from outside of the US.

    --
    Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  35. Re:Let me fix that for you by Kjella · · Score: 1

    Yup... latest EFI proficiency stats had 5 countries trending up, 44 slightly up, 24 slightly down and 0 trending down. And of the 80 countries they measured China was #36 between Costa Rica and Japan rising quickly (50.94 -> 52.45 in rating), one place from being in the "medium proficiency" group. They're considerably higher rated than Mexico at #44 now. And the age distribution trend is quite clear, English proficiency is in clear growth. I think the biggest reason is the Internet, I remember when I grew up calling long distance was expensive and international like super expensive. English language newspapers were a rarity. Movies and series had subtitles, books had translations. I learned English, but the only real practical application I had was on the computer because software was in English. It was all pretty theoretical until you suddenly could browse/download/chat with people from all over the world.

    And I think the rest of the world is pretty much in agreement too, even though the US is invaded by Spanish it's a pretty obvious second choice for Spanish-speaking. Europe is clearly English-aligned (96% now learn English, with Chinese not even in the top 5), so is Australia, India and much of Africa as former colonies. To the degree that anyone is learning a second language in South America it's also English. That kinda leaves the Middle East - which mostly speak Arabic and very little else - and the rest of Asia. But the Russia-China relationship is only lukewarm with few bi-lingual, with Japan it's on the freezing point, Pakistan is in the Arabic camp... even if Chinese is seeing a little bit of spread in SE Asia it's not gaining any global influence whatsoever.

    P.S. Don't get me wrong there's a lot of mono-lingual or who speak one of the "smaller" world languages, so it's not like English is universal or anything. The highest estimates are 1.5 billion, which means 80% of the world doesn't speak English. I mean you can do just fine living in Japan and only know Japanese or Thailand and know Thai or Russia and know Russian or Brazil and know Portuguese. But they're not really in the running for global language.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  36. Re: Let me fix that for you by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    When i was a kid, it was Russian because of the Cold War.

    I must have missed that chapter - not the Cold War but the part where teaching Russian in the U.S. was ever a "thing" (my dad was taught Russian - by the NSA, on behalf of the Air Force). The rest of us? Spanish, French, Latin, German (likely in that order) with Japanese becoming popular in the late 80's and Chinese following a decade after.

    You were very much an outlier.

  37. Poe by kackle · · Score: 1

    20 years seems to be plenty of time for a creator to be fairly compensated for their work.

    Ask Poe how that worked out.

    1. Re:Poe by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Is this Poe as in Poe's law? I honestly can't tell.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  38. ... HAS NO COPYRIGHT LAW! We have Urheberrecht! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Urheberrecht is not the same as copyright, no matter how much the Content Mafia would love it to be!

    Urheberrecht is an AUTHOR's privilege, while copyright is a DISTRIBUTOR's privilege (at the expense of the actual author, mostly deliberately so).
    Urheberrecht is NOT transferable, copyright IS transferable (and mostly is).
    Urheberrecht is IMPLICIT, copyright is EXPLICIT. Meaning, you don’t have to add a stupid (c) everywhere. The only thing that matters is the treshold of originality ("Schöpfungshöhe").

    This makes Urheberrecht a vastly different law.
    Give it the short time frames of when it was new, and privileging people to enforce a monopoly to some record of information suddenly seems a lot more sensible, no? (Apart from the fact, that causality makes it impossible to enforce, its infinite no-cost abundance makes it worthless, and the fuckin' cokeheads should just do a proper service business contract in advance, like literally every other business since the dawn of the economy, instead of making up imaginary delusions of “owning” or "stealing" patterns/information/data, of course.)

    Also, there was a time, when Germany had no such laws AT ALL, while the UK already had copyright. And as a result, the UK suffered what is now called an information dark age, while Germany got the name "the land of poets and thinkers" as a result. ... settles it, doesn't it?

    1. Re:... HAS NO COPYRIGHT LAW! We have Urheberrecht! by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 2

      While in core I agree, you label one party incorrectly. It is not "Germany", but very small, but highly influential parties that contribute to such laws and rulings. It is something for the lawyers to figure out. Anyone with some practical sense connects via VPN and the issue is resolved. There is an app for that.

    2. Re:... HAS NO COPYRIGHT LAW! We have Urheberrecht! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That Urheberrecht is non-transferable is only technically true. In practice, authors commonly strike a deal with a publisher, called a Verlagsvertrag which gives the publisher the exclusive Verlagsrecht for the work, even if the Urheberrecht of the work is inherited at the death of the author. Which rights are actually transferred depends on the actual text of the Verlagsvertrag, but actual practice is usually hard to distinguish from copyright transfer.
      In the case at hand, the authors, Thomas Mann, Heinrich Mann and Alfred Döblin signed a Verlagsvertrag. Alfred Döblin signed over all rights to his works, while the Manns signed over book rights to their works while the e-book rights to their works were signed over by their descendants.
      These works were published in the US and passed into the public domain there before the US signed the Berner Übereinkunft, so there they are still in the public domain. However, in Germany the works are still covered because the German copyright term was the same as that of the Berner Übereinkunft: death of the author plus seventy years. And this means that, the works still being covered in Germany and the publisher, S. Fisher Verlag, having the rights to these works, the publisher can sue in Germany. And international treaties make it possible to also sue them in the US if they don't comply with the German court order.
      And this is why Project Gutenberg now blocks German users. And the publisher is already angry about this, saying that this is a form of contempt of court: they say that rather than comply with the court order and make the works inaccessible, Project Gutenberg is trying to mobilize the anger of German users against the publisher. Whether they'll go to court over this remains to be seen though.

  39. Re:Wonâ(TM)t somebody think of the organizati by tsa · · Score: 1

    what do you mean, even further? Germany wants their own copyright laws to be enforced in their own country. Is that too much to ask?

    --

    -- Cheers!

  40. Re:Book burning Nazis by Moldiver · · Score: 2

    That people follow the law, simple and easy. The internet is not outside the law.

  41. Waaaa!!! Leave the Germans alone!!! by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

    I'm sure they'll will try and find a final solution to this problem!!! They always do.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    1. Re:Waaaa!!! Leave the Germans alone!!! by John.Banister · · Score: 1

      I think that's what they are doing when they make their site inaccessible to people with German IP addresses. They're leaving the Germans alone. Those Germans who employ the use of a VPN to reach Project Gutenberg have found solution to their problem. It may not be a final solution, but perhaps you could think of it as cofinal.

  42. Re:I'm Shocked by nagora · · Score: 1

    You have literally no idea what you're talking about, do you?

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  43. Re:Wonâ(TM)t somebody think of the organizati by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, except the internet isn't just in their country. It's everywhere.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  44. Re:I don't know. by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

    Extradition treaties do still hold some meaning. If Kim Dotcom had fled to a country that doesn't hold extradition with the US, there would have been nothing they could do.

  45. Re:I don't know. by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    Maybe because the people running the site don't want to worry about being extradited, or arrested every time they enter an airport.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  46. Re:I'm Shocked by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    Imagine having to obey Singapore's littering laws in the United States.

    Sounds good to me!

    You then discarded it in a public area in the United States.

    What a jerk.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  47. Re:I don't know. by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The modern corporation didn't exist in the 18th century.

    Leaving aside the obvious truism that by definition *modern* anything didn't exist in the 18th century, corporations certainly existed long before - notably the British & Dutch East India Companies.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  48. Re: ... HAS NO COPYRIGHT LAW! We have Urheberrecht by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 2

    It doesn't have to be registered, but it does have to be stated.

    Night of the Living Dead entered public domain the moment it was released because they never included the copyright notice on the title card.

    --
    Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
  49. Re: Let me fix that for you by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    People who could speak Russian fluently were out of work after the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 and the Cold War ended in 1991.

    True, it happened to one of my old school classmates.

    Which was pretty harsh given that she was a dentist.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  50. Re:Book burning Nazis by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

    The Internet outside of Germany is outside of German law. If the books are public domain in the U.S. then Germany has no say in the matter, since Gutenberg is a U.S. based site. And if they want to find a way to keep their citizens from accessing these works for free, they will have to do so without infringing any rights outside their borders.

    --
    This space unintentionally left blank.
  51. Middle finger? by countach · · Score: 1

    Why can't they just give Germany the middle finger? What are they going to do about it? Send gun boats?

  52. Re:I don't know. by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    You can only be extradited for a crime in a foreign country that is also a crime in your own country.

  53. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No it isn't. It's ridiculous how long copyright continues for books after authors' deaths, but it's not at all ridiculous that it continues at all.

    Otherwise, why would anyone pay an author for a work after they've reached an age that actuarial tables suggest is close to the end?

  54. Must? by helpfulcorn · · Score: 1

    ... American nonprofit must obey German copyright law...

    lol nein

  55. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by Robotech_Master · · Score: 1

    Wrong. The US didn't join the Berne Convention until 1989. All the books in question entered the US public domain due to time-since-publication in the 1960s and 70s. Once a work has entered the US public domain, it stays there even if copyright periods are later lengthened. You can't lengthen a public domain book's copyright retroactively.

    --
    Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
  56. huh.. by CyberRacer · · Score: 1

    Like we obey copyright law bullshit anyway... Get a clue asshats.. We obey life. We hang together or surely we hang like stupid bitches. Or not... Whatever.. We as human beings live and die based on information. Just like all the rest live and die based on self vs universe. If no human has access to human knowledge, we all die very quickly. If we share knowledge, we as individuals (and as a sum) gain. No, immortality is a myth, even the universe as we know it doesn't live forever, and subsequently neither do we. However, we CAN do the best can with it.. Live as long as we can... And try to have a good time doing it. As for the rest trying to use knowledge as a tool for enslavement? Fuck you... Bring it on! Wait.. . Just a moment... On the ..... Can... Ahhhhhhh.. O....k.. Now you can bring it on...

  57. the future... by CyberRacer · · Score: 1

    What is it we all want? Most of us want to live forever.. and die of a terminal orgasm. Copywrong is just a method of ensuring that don't.

  58. Re: ... HAS NO COPYRIGHT LAW! We have Urheberrech by chaboud · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not true.

    It *did* have to be stated, but that is no longer the case. Inclusion of notice per regulations precludes certain infringement defenses (e.g. innocent infringement), but no notice is required by U.S. law.

  59. Re: Won't somebody think of the organizations by chaboud · · Score: 1

    Posterized.

  60. Re: ... HAS NO COPYRIGHT LAW! We have Urheberrech by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 1

    Huh. TIL. Thanks!

    --
    Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
  61. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

    You can't lengthen a public domain book's copyright retroactively.

    Oh yes you can. The case is Golan v. Holder, another terrible Ginsburg copyright ruling (she and her daughter, a law professor, are notorious copyright maximalists). The key language:

    The Constitution states that "Congress shall have Power . . . [t]o promote the Progress of Science . . . by securing for limited Times to Authors . . . the exclusive Right to their . . . Writings." Art. I, sect. 8, cl. 8. Petitioners find in this grant of authority an impenetrable barrier to the extension of copyright protection to authors whose writings, for whatever reason, are in the public domain. We see no such barrier in the text of the Copyright Clause, historical practice, or our precedents.

    The text of the Copyright Clause does not exclude application of copyright protection to works in the public domain.

    --
    -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  62. Re:I don't know. by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
    1993 is not hundreds of years ago.

    You must be new here!

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  63. Re:I don't know. by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    Project Gutenberg PRESERVES literature and makes it accessible. They focus on titles that are to be considered public domain. Publishers want to milk as much money as they can without generating new content or paying authors. This is typical for for-profit corporations.

  64. Re:Book burning Nazis by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

    So the books are public domain in US, and available in the US, but *not* available in Germany. What's the problem? Different states in the US have different liquor laws, with different permissions for selling on Sunday; when you walk into a store you are subject to whichever laws cover the location you are in. This is no different.

  65. Re:Won't somebody think of the organizations by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    Which part of: it is a work in german language written by german authors did you not get so far?
    It can't be in US "public domain" ...

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  66. Re:I don't know. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    Medieval universities were definitely corporations AFAIK. Corporations go way, way back.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  67. Re:I don't know. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    Oh, and BTW, 18th century is already modern, isn't it?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  68. Re: I don't know. by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

    Bullshit. The law is a whore. The rich make the laws, the poor are forced at the point of a gun to obey. "Consent of the governed" is an obvious lie.

  69. Re: I don't know. by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

    Go because to Reddit, Ivan.

  70. who pays the creimertards? by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

    This thread, like so many, is infested with creimertards talking to themselves. I used to think it was just some self-righteous progressive sleazebags hazing a kinda clueless loser.

    But it's gotten to the point where that hypothesis no longer fits the data. There's just too much of it, it's too pointless, no one cares but they just keep posting again & again.

    Oh my brothers, the creimertards are not some smug cowards taunting a fellow nerd. They are a forum disruption operation. Creimer himself is probably a fictional character.

    The creimertards' inane and repetitious hate posts are meant to disgust and annoy real users, thereby discouraging public participation. Slashdot in one of the last (mostly) uncensored American sociopolitical discussion forums. Its cultural importance far exceeds the size of its userbase.

    Free discussion has many well-financed enemies, foreign and domestic alike. So its interesting to speculate on who hired the creimertards, and out of what troll farm they operate. The writing has a tone of smarmy self-satisfaction typical of Hillaryists, but the content of the messages has no strong political slant.

    Now get ready for the stock talking-points reply about how Slashdot isn't important enough to have trolls. Despite the fact we can all see /. has become a significant memetic warfare battlefield.

  71. Re:Nazgul by q4Fry · · Score: 1

    You fool. No man can kill Disney. Buy now.

  72. Re:I don't know. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    BTW, 18th century is already modern, isn't it?

    In a sense yes, because it's not medieval (ends at 1453 or 1485 depending on who you ask).

    On the other hand, would expect surgery without anaesthetics & antiseptics in a modern hospital? Would you expect to see a modern democracy where only men (and usually only wealthy ones at that) can run & vote?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  73. Re:I'm Shocked by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

    The German court did not as Project Gutenberg to make any changes for users from the US.

    No, they just asked Project Gutenberg to change their perfectly legal US-based operations to suit German law. Where the user is located is irrelevant; the copy was made in the US, by a US organization, not in Germany or by a German citizen. Germany is attempting to restrict foreign citizens from acting in ways which are legal for them according to the laws in effect where the actions occur. There is no reason that a US-based organization with no presence in Germany should have any reason to care about German law. More generally—the mere exchange of information with an individual in another jurisdiction is not sufficient grounds to subject oneself to the other party's jurisdiction.

    --
    "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  74. Re:I don't know. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    What? How do you click on a medieval university?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  75. Re:Book burning Nazis by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

    So the books are public domain in US, and available in the US, but *not* available in Germany. What's the problem?

    The problem is that Project Gutenberg isn't making the books available in Germany. Project Gutenberg is making the books available in the US—that is where their operations are, and where the copying occurs. Germany is attempting to enforce German copyright law on actions by non-German citizens which take place outside of Germany.

    ... when you walk into a store you are subject to whichever laws cover the location you are in.

    The "store" in this case is located in the US. Germany wants the US "store" to change its behavior toward the customers who walk into the store based on their country of origin.

    Imagine if your store was located in a state which allowed liquor sales on Sunday, but a neighbouring state charged you with violating their state liquor laws because one of your customers had traveled across state lines on a Sunday to buy liquor from your store. This is no different.

    --
    "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  76. Re:I'm Shocked by nagora · · Score: 1

    The German court did not as Project Gutenberg to make any changes for users from the US.

    No, they just asked Project Gutenberg to change their perfectly legal US-based operations to suit German law. Where the user is located is irrelevant; the copy was made in the US

    I see. So there's no copy on the German user's computer?

    Your notion of what is a copy is about 50 years out of date.

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  77. Re:I'm Shocked by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

    So there's no copy on the German user's computer?

    What if there is? Project Gutenberg did not make a copy on a German user's computer. If such a copy exists, the German user placed it there. Project Gutenberg is not German and did not take any action in Germany, including but not limited to making copies of items covered by German copyrights.

    --
    "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat