EPA's Science Advisory Board Has Not Met in 6 Months (scientificamerican.com)

The U.S. EPA Science Advisory Board has not met in at least six months, and some of its members say it's being sidelined to avoid getting in the way of agency Administrator Scott Pruitt's anti-regulatory agenda, Scientific American reported this week. From the report: Agency officials say the lapse isn't intentional and that it's just the result of delayed paperwork. That has prevented the group from meeting because there weren't enough members to make a quorum. The board, which typically has about 45 members, is tasked by Congress to evaluate the science used by EPA to craft policy. The full board has not met since August, nor has it had any conference calls or votes. In the past, members would have had multiple interactions during that time period, said William Schlesinger, a board member who is an emeritus professor of biogeochemistry at Duke University. "I guess the Science Advisory Board still exists; I guess I'm still on it," he said. "I think the answer is maybe they're giving it what we used to call the 'pocket veto': If you don't meet, then the scientists are not a pain, because they don't have a forum."

Comments

The science is settled

[PPH]

n/t

Re:The science is settled

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Well, we all know the dangers of Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, Big Coal . . .

The board, which typically has about 45 members,

. . . now meet the terror and horror of Big Boards! You'll never "settle" anything with that many members.

Whack the size down to 10. Make monthly meetings mandatory . . . otherwise you get booted from the board and lose all the privileges and compensation that goes with it. That would make the board effective in no time.

That, of course, assumes that you want the board to be effective.

Re:The science is settled

[bobbied]

Apparently the science isn't settled in some folks view.

Re:The science is settled

[tbannist]

That, of course, assumes that you want the board to be effective.

Trump doesn't.

SOP

[meerling]

Ignoring (or otherwise eliminating) the experts and science is pretty much standard operating procedure for this administration.

Re:SOP

[93 Escort Wagon]

Given the current president almost exclusively put people in charge of each department who were vocal opponents of the missions of their respective departments, I don’t think this result should be surprising in the least.

Except Ben Carson - I’m not sure he even knew HUD existed prior to 2017. Trump probably just figured he needed a black guy in charge of HUD, given the clientele.

Re:SOP

[SoftwareArtist]

It's hardly the worst he's done. He hasn't even nominated someone for the post of White House science advisor. More than a year into his administration, it's still vacant.

But why would he want advice from scientists? If God had meant us to think rationally, he would have given us wings!

Re:SOP

[Scroatzilla]

As soon as you are working for the government, it really doesn't matter if you are a "scientist" or an "expert," because your primary role is that of a bureaucrat. Removing, as much as possible, bureaucracy (and, therefore, inevitably political outcomes), is removing the impediments of doing the proper job of experts and scientists.

Re:Carpenters Like Hammers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea ok. You mean the Trump train is making sure the scientific rationale for policies doesnt get in the way of good old boy white nationalist religious thought. You know silly things like science can't be trusted because of fake news and the deep state. We need more superior IQ people like Trump to make random decisions based on the latest fox and Breitfart news headline.

The US is sleeping.

[Anonymous Coward]

The 'woke' metaphor is appropriate.

Government is what you get when people get together and decide how they want to live together, beyond just tribal rules.

Much of America's legal framework actually came from studying multi-tribe gatherings of tribes, banding together to end cycles of violence.

Here's the Extra History take on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Science now holds no place at the table with this latest administration. Liberal or conservative, this should not be accepted in ANY form of governance.

Indeed - it shouldn't even be called an actual government anymore. What we have is a largely sleeping body where representation of the United States, it's scientific community, and its ideas should be.

But our current administration has no interest in sharing space of any kind, in communicating ideas, of advancing any but their own narrowest of interests. They'll lavishly communicate with dictators of any kind, but never offer a second to science.

Which is a shame - because they're largely the last place of noteworthy power that baby boomers will hold in this world. This will be their legacy, more than most things.

It's such a shame they spend that power sleeping, while being robbed of everything they used to care about.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[DogDude]

a hyper-leftist/Marxist former president

Whoa, buddy. Take your meds.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[MightyMartian]

You do understand that the laws of physics don't give a flying shit about your particular political ideology, right? You do understand that whether the Trump Administration accepts or ignores science, the physical laws of nature will continue to do what they do. The best any government can do is create policies based upon the best understanding of how the universe functions, and it does not matter even the tiniest bit what that government, the experts it employs, or yes, even the fucking voters think of it. The universe does not care. It doesn't care about socialism, capitalism, Libertarianism, Anarchism, or any other fucking -ism. It doesn't care about Federalism, Localism, or any idea great or small.

If something is toxic, it's fucking toxic. If something causes the waters to rise, it causes the waters to rise. If it causes surface temperatures to increase, it causes surface temperatures to increase. Everything you care about is fucking irrelevant at the end of the day. What counts is only what the physical laws of the universe will inevitably cause. If a stream gets poisoned, cutting back on the number of scientists isn't going to make the poisons go away.

Somewhere in your fucking head there must be some neurons that fundamentally can cope with the notion that actually listening to what an expert panel says, as imperfect as that may be, is better than just doing whatever the fuck is profitable at the moment. If not, then why bother having government at all? I dump shit in your water supply, mercury in your food chain, and it won't matter, because somehow magically your political ideology apparently can morph the very laws of nature.

Fuck me, there some intensely stupid people out there, and a lot of them seem to post here.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[Sesostris III]

I'm curious. As the summary quotes a biogeochemist, how exactly does hyper-leftist/Marxist biogeochemistry differ from (say) rightist/Conservative biogeochemistry?

Actually, if we want to go beyond biogeochemist, I would love to know how hyper-leftist/Marxist physics differs from rightist/Conservative physics, or if we really get down to basics, how hyper-leftist/Marxist mathematics differs from rightist/Conservative mathematics.

And is there a centrist biogeochemistry/physics/mathematics that differs to these two for those of us in the wishy-washy centre?

As I said, just curious.

Re: The US is sleeping.

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy shit if you think Obama was hyper leftist or Marxist you are like maximum level retard.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[Sesostris III]

I know I'm a foreigner, but it is clear even to me that the EPA Science Advisory Board != The EPA.

As it states in the linked Scientific American article;

The board, which typically has about 45 members, is tasked by Congress to evaluate the science used by EPA to craft policy.

I can't comment on treating a 'farm drainage ditch be treated like a "navigable waterway"', as you don't cite any reference (and, as I say, I'm a foregner so if it is commonly cited in the US National News I wouldn't be aware of it), but if there is dodgy science behind it, then I would expect the Advisory Board to have an opinion (i.e. 'evaluate').

But then I suppose in a way you're correct when you say 'The EPA has had little to do with science in a long time.'. Well, at least six months according to the article!

Re:The US is sleeping.

[tbannist]

Nice work. You've defined a new -ism. Scienceism. I suppose we should let you appoint the 'scientists' to be the rulers under this new -ism.

I suppose you think what you've written is somehow intelligent? You're wrong. You can't argue with science like you can't argue with a bullet flying in your direction. He's not saying you have to do what the scientists say. He's saying that ignoring a scientific problem won't make it go away. The new conservatives believe in denying reality because it would inconvenience their opinions, and that is exactly why I stopped being a conservative. Reality just doesn't care about your ideology.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[Sesostris III]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. OK, they're from the UK (but we're pretty similar to the US in outlook), but here are a couple of sites.

Firstly one mentioning a difference between the sexes:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/osteoporosis/causes/

And a couple making specific references to ethnic groups (and differences between them):

https://www.blood.co.uk/why-give-blood/the-need-for-blood/black-asian-and-minority-ethnic-communities/
https://www.blood.co.uk/why-give-blood/the-need-for-blood/rare-blood-types//

Would something like this be controversial in the States? Or did you have something else in mind perhaps?

Re:The US is sleeping.

[Anonymous Coward]

I really do enjoy how eagerly you guys offer yourselves up as examples of just how stupid the posters here have become.
 
 

I suppose we should let you appoint the 'scientists' to be the rulers under this new -ism.

GP said we should listen to the people who study these things for a living because our actions have consequences and ignoring them doesn't make them disappear. This is a profoundly basic lesson that many of our children grasp early on, but still somehow manages to elude you. You should really be embarrassed signing your name to such retarded arguments, lord knows I'm embarrassed for you.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[MightyMartian]

No, that isn't the scientific process. That sort of describes peer review, but science is not a debate society. Debate .at be part of it, but it isn't by ant measure the entirety of the methodology. What you're describing is modern conservatism's strawman of science.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[argStyopa]

"Government is what you get when people get together and decide how they want to live together, beyond just tribal rules.
Much of America's legal framework actually came from studying multi-tribe gatherings of tribes, banding together to end cycles of violence."

And what was the key insight of the Founding Fathers in their observations? That governments are made of people, and people are prone to corruption and motivated primarily by self interest. So they built a democratic republic (not a democracy - they found that repugnant) in which the key mechanisms are CONSTRAINT of whatever minimalist government was necessary to keep things functioning.

The US Constitution is not an elucidation of the rights of the people of the United States; on the contrary, it is precisely and completely a FENCE limiting the power of government, handing the bulk of the responsibility for governing to the states and the peoples within them. Further, even within this 'minimalist' structure, they set each of the three branches in diametric, constant opposition to keep them all in check.

In no sense, ever, was the US federal government intended to be a funder of science, the arts, a clearinghouse of consumer information, or the setter of regulation heights of doorknobs. It was not meant to be the second chance of people who made bad choices, the comforter of the foolish, or the feeder of the hungry.

Look, I understand: your point is less about government and more about virtue signaling. Look everyone, Anonymous Coward (/shock) on the "hate Trump" bandwagon! But I had to interrupt your screed with actual facts about what the US government was intended to be from the beginning.

"....they're largely the last place of noteworthy power that baby boomers will hold in this world..."
Good, fuck them. I hope history holds them with the level of scorn appropriate to the shit they've pulled, basically wrecking this country on the shoals of their ceaseless narcissism.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[MightyMartian]

I suspect I have more knowledge of science in my left testicle that you do in your entire body.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[jandjmh]

Exactly correct

Re:The US is sleeping.

[jandjmh]

Some scientists and engineers in government would be a great idea. That's not some made up boogeyman called scienceism. That is common sense. And if those domain experts aren't in office, second best is to have a formal procedure in place to get some input from them.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[Gilgaron]

Letting the most accomplished scientist and engineers influence policy related to science and engineering already has a name: meritocracy.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[MightyMartian]

I'd just like to add, Kuhn has been heavily misrepresented, and even he admitted that his view of science was a bit distorted from how science actually happens. Most science really doesn't happen as paradigm shifts, but simply as the slow march of advancement as more knowledge is gained and better techniques developed. There really aren't that many gotcha moments in science. It's a much more mundane set of disciplines than that.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[penandpaper]

What toxic substance is not being regulated by the EPA that was authorized by law to be regulated? The laws of physics do not care about how you classify CO2. The law sure as shit does though. Can the EPA, within the current law, redefine CO2 as a pollutant to be regulated? Can the EPA within the existing law regulate your breathing hole?

I am sorry but the existing law didn't regulate CO2. The EPA redefining it as a pollutant is an overreach. How to regulate is a contentious issue that should not be left to a federal bureaucracy left to be undone by the next administration. Scientists can help inform congress who then should argue on what it means to regulate CO2 and pass a law. HOW things done in government matter that the laws of physics are not concerned with.

This continues to be the legacy of Obama and frankly his failure as a president. I get tired of hearing about overzealous government doing more than the law allows it to do. The shoe is on the other foot which was an inevitably going to happen sooner or later. If it is important Congress should act that way it isn't so easy to undo. If Obama has a pen and phone to write something you like then don't be upset that when you lose power The Other Guy undoes it.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[penandpaper]

You can't argue with science like you can't argue with a bullet flying in your direction.... He's saying that ignoring a scientific problem won't make it go away.

We are going to hit our Paris accord goals without being in the accord. What scientific problem are we ignoring? The politics of science isn't about the definition of the problem (although it can be). It's about the solution. Can the EPA redefine CO2 to be a pollutant within the existing law? I don't think it can and Congress is the one to act on the science. They are the ones that require consensus. When they do come to consensus the direction of the EPA won't change on the next administration.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[penandpaper]

how exactly does hyper-leftist/Marxist biogeochemistry differ from (say) rightist/Conservative biogeochemistry
Solutions. What is the proper role of government. If the current law is unable to deal with a particular biogeochemistry problem then what should happen; Can the government loosely reinterpret the law to get what you want?

Re:The US is sleeping.

[MightyMartian]

The universe doesn't care about the US Constitution either.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[UnknowingFool]

And Jesus Fucking Christ! The whole scientific process involves 'arguing with science' and doing so vigorously, at all times. Question everything, believe nothing whole-cloth.

Part of the scientific process involves gathering and examining evidence. Debate does occur but that is not the totality of the process. For example, plenty of debate occurred when Einstein proposed General Relativity as it was fundamentally ground breaking in understanding the nature of the universe. It was not until evidence started to appear that General Relativity was generally accepted. Even now scientists know that General Relativity is inadequate to describe aspects of the known universe like what happens inside a black hole. Currently there is plenty of debate of what model should describe Quantum Gravity from String Theory to Loop Quantum Gravity however none of them have been backed with evidence.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[penandpaper]

You're right. Non of the solutions for global warming would stop anything so why bother. At least then we wouldn't have to hear your sanctimonious opinion.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[UnknowingFool]

'Science' is not a political ratchet to tighten around people whose actions you oppose.

Who is tightening what? In the some areas like climate change, warning the world that polluting the air with emissions is having a disastrous effect might trigger you but that's your problem if you can't handle someone telling you the truth.

Nice work. You've defined a new -ism. Scienceism. I suppose we should let you appoint the 'scientists' to be the rulers under this new -ism.

And which rulers are those? How many of the world leaders are scientists again? Very few. Most of them are lawyers. Does that destroy your world view?

Re:The US is sleeping.

[MightyMartian]

Of course there are solutions. Stop puking CO2 into the atmosphere. But that's where science and technology hit politics and economics, and so long as it is more convenient for politicians to either kick the can down the road or outright deny there is even a problem, those emissions will continue, perhaps being reduced somewhat, but not enough. But yes, there's a bloody solution to the problem, but it would require honesty and accountability.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[penandpaper]

Honesty and accountability... But you just said the universe doesn't care about the law, which is concerned about those things. Now you are using the law to try and stop the inevitable. Here's a thought, when it comes to the law how things are done is important.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[losfromla]

yay! I found another moron to "foe"

Re: The US is sleeping.

[orgelspieler]

Well.... for those people who think that Fox News really is fair and balanced, somebody like Obama must seem like Stalin reincarnated. Remember, there are people out there like my dad, who stopped listening to Rush Limbaugh because he got too liberal. Back before YouTube channels, you had to find your crazy on AM talk radio or short wave. It was there, but the barrier to entry was higher. You had to be committed. See the other article on the front page about YouTube as radicalizing agent.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[losfromla]

Yeah, but unfortunately we are living in an alternate reality that closely mirrors Idiocracy and/or Back to the Future 2.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[PJ6]

Much of America's legal framework actually came from studying multi-tribe gatherings of tribes, banding together to end cycles of violence.

Here's the Extra History take on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Dude. Thank you for posting that. Makes me wish they'd taught history differently in school.

Maybe some day the guys who made Avatar: The Legend of Korra will pick that story up and make it a series.

Re:The US is sleeping.

[RespekMyAthorati]

democratic republic (not a democracy - they found that repugnant)

Back that up with actual quotes from the "Founding Fathers".
Or admit that you can't, because it's bullshit.

A democratic republic is a democracy, you idiot.

biogeochemistry

[EETech1]

biogeochemistry

I read that as:

bigegochemistry

Like 10 times till I got it right :l

Re:biogeochemistry

[93 Escort Wagon]

Both are right.

Just a vacation

[PhrostyMcByte]

We're just taking a quick 4 year vacation to recharge ourselves. Well, technically a staycation -- wouldn't want to travel and risk visiting one of those shithole countries.

Re:Just a vacation

[93 Escort Wagon]

Maybe our Norwegian friends might stop by...

Re:Just a vacation

[losfromla]

Only if they feel like going slumming

Re: Carpenters Like Hammers

[Anonymous Coward]

Such political polarization in society today is leading to some serious hate... Shesh...

Can you not bring yourself to see that many intelligent and well meaning folks don't agree with your politically motivated views? Believe them wrong if you like, but this "I'm more intelligent than you stupid folks" really doesn't help anybody or anything. In fact, it just shows how lacking in basic human decency your perspective has become. You can disagree, but there is no need to be disagreeable in the process.

More Regulatory Capture or Hostility?

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump's administration has been marked by regulatory capture (FCC) or outright hostility to our system of government and regulation. To say the administration's actions are suspect in the wake of the ever widening Mueller investigation is a massive understatement. But even ignoring that, he's putting people in charge of government agencies that don't believe those agencies should function (DOE is another example). It feels like sabotage.

Re:More Regulatory Capture or Hostility?

[careysub]

We are way beyond "regulatory capture" now. It is a full-on hostile takeover.

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[bobbied]

This is not governance in any political affiliation. This is treason and abdication of duty. Prison can't come soon enough for these fools.

Treason has a specific constitutionally defined meaning. I think you are trying way to hard to make Trump's actions meet that definition.

Prison time usually requires the commission of a crime. At this point, we have no direct evidence Trump committed any crimes here. We have a lot of theories about possible crimes being investigated, but being investigated isn't evidence of a crime. No crimes are in evidence and Treason isn't really possible at this point so I think you are rattling on about nothing but wild conspiracy theories for now..

Can we at least wait until the evidence comes out before we make wildly unlikely charges like Treason?

No? Ok.. Then stay with the partisan political craziness that drives all this pointless wrangling...

Get over it

[PopeRatzo]

Trump won and Science lost, so get over it, snowflakes.

Re:Get over it

[thegarbz]

Trump won and Science lost

We lost a lot more than Science.

Didn't you know

[jmccue]

Didn't you now science is now owned by The Pres and his party ?

The Roman Catholic Church use to define science based upon the scripture until I think the 19th or 18th century.

So we (US) have been moving slowly back to that time period, where real provable science is fake and real science is just entertainment :)

Strange times we live in, many people running the US rejects Science were Roman Catholic Church seems to be a leader in science.

Re:And economics?

[Quantum gravity]

Ignoring established economics? When it comes to trade tariffs on steel and aluminum, absolutely. He has protectionist attitudes toward trade that are laughable if the consequences weren't likely to be so serious. Most economists say that such tariffs are not going to help domestic producer, just cause an extra burden on the rest of the economy. And at the same it could set of at trade war undermining the global trading system. But Trump thinks that "Trade wars are good, and easy to win".

Re:Hard to Sympathize

[bobbied]

I hear you and I agree.

The EPA is one of those necessary evil parts of what should be the smallest government we can manage. I think the issue has been the liberal's approach of making government agencies so they have authority of law to pass "regulations" which carry the force of law and using that ability to further their political, social, and economic views. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, and this stuff is getting rolled back by the other party, they are coming unglued. This shouldn't happen...

The REAL problem here is Congress refusing to actually do their job and make LAWS by just authorizing the executive branch to take care of the day to day regulations. Congress took the easy way out and created all these organizations in the executive branch to manage all sorts of things through regulations... They should take responsibility back and stop this slow motion train wreak by resending this abrogation of their duty and start actually making laws about this stuff. The EPA should be retained to recommend laws but regulations should be passed like any other law, though a bill Congress approves of and is signed by the president.

Re:And economics?

[HornWumpus]

Trump realizes that the trade war has been on for _decades_, wants to start fighting back.

The two biggest up and coming economies (China and India) are both very protectionist. It's time for that to change.

China and India can't retaliate by imposing tariffs of their own, because those tariffs have been there forever. Apparently having low cost labor isn't enough for them, they also need local ownership rules, high import tariffs and currency pegs. All protectionist laws.

And No One Noticed or Cared

[Tulsa_Time]

Until now, did it affect your life ?

Re: And economics?

[Anonymous Coward]

I studied econ. They're definitely ignoring that field, as well.

FTFY

[sfled]

"... it's being sidelined to avoid getting in the way of agency Administrator Scott Pruitt's anti-science agenda..."

Re: Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[Anonymous Coward]

Letâ(TM)s see.

- Many of Trumpâ(TM)s campaign associates have either admitted to or are being prosecuted for crimes
- He gave classified information to Russians
- he ask the FBI Director to go easy on the associate that has admitted to a crime. Then fired him when he did not comply.
- He canâ(TM)t criticize Putin or enforce sanctions that a both Republicans and Democrats think are necessary.
- he wonâ(TM)t taking any action to protect the mid-term election
- He brought his son-in-law in the WH thought he is in debt to foreign and canâ(TM)t hold a clearance because he lied on his questionnaire.
- He endorsed a pedophile for Senate. He was accused of sexual assault. He admitted to sexual assault.
- He had his lawyer payoff a porn star during the election in violation of election.
- He has bankrupted his company 6 times. No American bank will lend to him. He has not provided any financial disclosure. Who is he indebted to?

You are right. He hasnâ(TM)t been convicted of anything. However, it isnâ(TM)t partisan to see this spectacular and be worried for our country. He is bad but Americans saw that and still voted for him. Letâ(TM)s hope someone throws him in jail before we all pay the price for their mistake.

Re:Carpenters Like Hammers

[prefec2]

Your metaphor is wrong. The advisory board is full of scientists. They apply science to issues. Science is not a single instrument, but it is a way to address issues methodically and rational to avoid anecdotal "facts" which can lead you in the wrong way. Presently, you are losing your government. You will end up in feudalism.

Easy fix... just meet!

[spiritplumber]

William Schlesinger and others in the advisory board have a list of people who are on said advisory board, presumably. This list contains contact info, presumably, or conversely the members are well known enough (to one another, at least) that contact info is easy to retrieve, presumably. Send some emails, make some calls, decide on when everyone has time, and schedule a meeting. It can be done in person or via teleconference, most of these people are academics and will have access to decent bandwidth. If a quorum is reached without Pruitt or the political appointees, tough cookies for them, they should've done their job. This is an easy solution that requires literally minutes of time and maybe tens of dollars from everyone involved.

Re:Easy fix... just meet!

[SoftwareArtist]

If only it were that easy! No, they can't just get together on their own. That is not an official meeting of the scientific advisory board. They can't officially consider any EPA business or issue any official advice.

Notice the agency's excuse. "Agency officials say the lapse isn't intentional and that it's just the result of delayed paperwork." And a bit later in the article. "He blamed the delay on the government's bureaucratic human resources process and said the official start date for many new members was Feb. 18. He expects to have a meeting at the end of May or in June." Right. It's all about paperwork. But this is a bureaucracy, and without the right paperwork, nothing is allowed to happen. And when you're in charge of the agency, it's easy to take advantage of that to prevent things from happening.

Re:Easy fix... just meet!

[spiritplumber]

That's the kind of shenanigans that is really easy to defeat, though. You file an intent to meet, you meet a few days later, you file the minutes for the meeting. The meeting has officially happened and any attempts to deny it would look foolish and not stand scrutiny. At the local level this happens all the time.

Re:Easy fix... just meet!

[Bing Tsher E]

But they then wouldn't collect their stipend for attending!!!

Re:Easy fix... just meet!

[Gilgaron]

Not a bad idea, but the charter for the committee may have language to dissuade this sort of thing. I suppose amendment could be item one on the agenda...

Re:And economics?

[Bing Tsher E]

Sounds good. Tariff away, China. Maybe put tariffs in place that block sale of US Capital Equipment to Chinese manufacturers.

Re:And economics?

[SoftwareArtist]

You're trying to change the subject. The EPA is supposed to get advice on both science and economics, and take both of them into account when issuing regulations. The science advisory board is there to advise them about science. But the administration doesn't like the science, so they shut down the advisory board so they don't have to listen to advice about it. You speak as if taking economic effects into account was somehow a replacement for taking science into account. It isn't. You need both, and they're ignoring the science.

But as for your question about the "science" of economics (believe me, it's not a science), yes, they're doing a pretty good job of ignoring that too. If they actually cared about long term economic effects, they'd be seriously worried about the massive costs of not addressing climate change. But their idea of "economics" is doing whatever's best for the companies that donate to their campaigns.

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[tbannist]

Treason has a specific constitutionally defined meaning. I think you are trying way to hard to make Trump's actions meet that definition.

Trump's action may not amount to the legal definition of treason, but there seems to be plenty of evidence that Trump has betrayed the trust of the American people, and has been negligent in his duties as president...

Some people get fired up and claim it's treason, but it's really what Trump denounced to get elected, good old corruption.

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[Anonymous Coward]

By plenty of evidence, you mean anonymously sourced or unsourced media stories that cannot be corroborated, and are quickly forgotten even when the facts eventually come to light because the media is on to the next faux scandal they cannot support. This is what we have accused Fox News of for years, and now that all media outlets are culpable you become credulous of their claims.

So no, there is no evidence of treason, no evidence of corruption, no evidence of negligence. You are living in a fantasy land if you seriously believe this. It does not matter if you are a fan of Trump or not, these are facts as we know them today. It is time for Democrats and their supporters to grow up and realize they lost an election. Win the next one. Win back Congress. But stop bitching about things that did not happen and start focusing on how to actually win.

If Democrats show up this Fall or in 2020 with an anti-America anti-Trump message based on zero facts they will get slaughtered in those elections. Figure out a winning strategy that coopts the voters and doesn't disdain them. If you think calling people names is workable it is over and Trump and the Republicans will win out, for a long time.

These boards are a pain in the ass

[mschuyler]

I've been on them. They are always for show and politically correct. One member from this place. One member from there. One Black. One Hispanic. Equality for women. One union rep, one from academia, one from the public sector. And every single person there has a political agenda to push, something they want done in the name of "justice" for their cause. Everyone tries one upmanship and grandstanding and thinks they can control the agency from their chair around the table. Advisory committees are not worth the cost the agency must pay for their lunches. It looks good on a resume and is a great excuse for a junket away from work so your employer thinks you're "contributing to the public good." and putting a feather in your oranization's cap as well as your own. It's a waste of time.

Re:These boards are a pain in the ass

[dave420]

Lots of hate, no evidence. Sounds familiar.

Re:They're probably too embarrassed

[Bing Tsher E]

Believe it when you are told that 'your side' has no compunction about manipulating ordinary peoples' perceptions based on their experience in the weather, when they can be manipulated into accepting 'climate change' theories as established fact.

Re: Carpenters Like Hammers

[Bing Tsher E]

Your hatred will eventually consume you. Be careful. Let it go sometimes. Everything isn't political 24/7.

unless you're just one of the crapflooders. Never mind, then.

Re:Are we blaming this on Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like someone so ignorant that they can't even imagine someone who isn't ignorant.

HIllary lost

[Anonymous Coward]

Hillary lost because she was worse then the guy who beat her. Get over it.

Re:HIllary lost

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been looking for over a year, and I still can't find that part of the Constitution which says the Presidential election winner is determined by the national popular vote. Help a brother out!

so...

[Anonymous Coward]

now we are at the point where failing to vigorously use RICHARD NIXON's public relations stunt (the EPA) is TREASON?!?!?!

WTF?

Seriously, dude, just how whacko and deranged are you Trump haters gonna get? In ANY other era of American politics, Trump would be seen as a "moderate" Republican. His social policies are WAY to the left of any previous US Republican president, and indeed all previous US Democrat presidents other than Obama. While Trump is harder on immigration than the past three presidents, he's far less harsh than many US Presidents including the great moderate Republican President Eisenhower.

Has pure hatred and bile twisted you people so severely that you have NO sense of perspective and are completely untethered from reality and history?

Re:Science, eh?

[dave420]

You're confusing sex with gender. Educate yourself about the differences, re-read what you wrote, then come back and apologize.

Re: Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[bobbied]

You are toting a huge conspiracy theory there AC...

Most of what you point to either couldn't be a crime because Trump is president and has the legal right to do what you claim is a crime... Some things really are not a crime when you consider the actual known facts. The rest are not crimes by Trump no matter how you slice it.

I get the feeling you are just pushing hard to make these claims because you are just upset with Trump having the gall to get elected...

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[bobbied]

Treason has a specific constitutionally defined meaning. I think you are trying way to hard to make Trump's actions meet that definition.

Trump's action may not amount to the legal definition of treason, but there seems to be plenty of evidence that Trump has betrayed the trust of the American people, and has been negligent in his duties as president...

Some people get fired up and claim it's treason, but it's really what Trump denounced to get elected, good old corruption.

So can we admit that this is NOT a question of crimes or treason then? That those who make such claims are not being helpful?

IF you really believe that Trump has betrayed the country, then you will have a chance in 2020 to get somebody else elected. I'm going to offer one bit of advice... It MIGHT be a good idea to save your attacks for the election. At this point, attacking Trump relentlessly about unproven theories will only strengthen his ability to defend himself during the campaign... "They've been attacking me on this since day one, where is their proof after 4 years? There isn't any. This is all they got, but I've got these results..." The only reason for keeping this up now is to stymie Trump's efforts to make things better because you are afraid they might actually work..

Re:And economics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who needs to buy US Capital Equipment when you can make it yourself? If you don't think the chinese can't copy anything american made, then you obviously haven't taken a look around your household/office/world. The chinese can and will copy everything they can. Why? Because, the can make a cheaper version to sell back to American's.

Look at the Wish app for ios and android. Everything on there is chinese made, shipped (mostly) direct from china. Look at a lot of Amazon items, chinese knock offs for 1/3 the price.

Some signs

[Tenebrousedge]

Firing Comey is entirely likely to result in an obstruction of justice charge, regardless of the results of the probe. I think that at the moment, the odds are against conviction. I would like to think that a charge of treason would be impossible regardless of any actions taken, given that we are not in a declared war, but apparently we have a bad history of ignoring that provision.

Re:Some signs

[Train0987]

Good luck with that. It was entirely within Trump's lawful right as President to fire the Director of the FBI. Not to mention all of the howls from the left demanding Obama fire him when he was in office.

Re:Some signs

[bobbied]

That's crazy...

Legally, Trump CAN fire Comey for any reason INCLUDING refusing to stop an investigation he doesn't like. It's happened in the past, no obstruction of justice charges where made at the time. Trump is NOT saying he fired Comey to stop an investigation and gave other reasons which you obviously don't believe, but are plausible. You try to invent something by tying two separate events together, but it is entirely possible they are unrelated and you cannot prove they are.

So, there can be NO CRIME in Trump's firing Comey, and the evidence you point to doesn't prove intent to obstruct justice in the first place.

There can be and wasn't any obstruction of justice involved in the firing of Comey....

Then, you have the whole Mueller investigation thing... IF Trump was firing Comey because he wanted to stop some investigation, what's keeping him from replacing Muller? He CAN do that too you know. He has the power.

I think you are grasping at straws on this and are really overreaching your actual evidence. It's not going to go well for your side if you keep doing this.

Re:Some signs

[Tenebrousedge]

Legally, it's not relevant whether the act was legal, as long as it had the effect of impeding the investigation, or was done with that motivation. Obstruction of justice charges were brought against Clinton under circumstances which were at least as dubious. I'm not actually suggesting any claims other than that charges will likely be presented; it's just as likely as not that this will be done by one of the Congressional probes if it's not a direct result of the Mueller investigation. Whether the charge would be justified is a question beyond my competence, and as I said, at the moment I doubt a conviction.

Trump cannot directly fire Mueller according to the law. He would have to either get Rosenstein to do this, or fire Rosenstein and get the new deputy AG to do it. This would probably not go unnoticed -- you may recall a certain "Saturday Night Massacre" which got some press attention. If Trump were to directly fire Mueller, it's just as likely as not that this would be upheld in a court of law, but it would also trigger an immediate Congressional reaction, and it's unlikely that the legality of the action would be directly examined.

There can be and wasn't any obstruction of justice involved in the firing of Comey....

As you seem to have said, there can be obstruction. Whether or not there was, is a question which neither of us can guess.

Re:Some signs

[bobbied]

I never said it was a smart thing to do, but Trump CAN effectively fire Muller by firing people until he comes up with somebody who will do what he wants. As you point out, it would not go unnoticed and Congress has the ability to deal with such abuses though the impeachment process.

Comey's firing WAS within Trump's direct purview. The Director of the FBI serves at the president's pleasure and can be let go for ANY reason, including for not following an order to stop an investigation. This would NOT be obstruction of justice... However, while possible, this too would not go unnoticed and Congress could investigate and deal with as they see fit though the impeachment process. Impeachment though is a political process, not a criminal one.

So, in the grand scheme of things, the issue here is you wanting to get Trump impeached, which simply isn't going to happen before the next Congress is seated in 2019, and ONLY if democrats take over the house could it happen. But if you impeach him, you won't convict him. Why? Well, the polling says it might be possible to take the house and conventional wisdom says the party in power loses seats in the house. However, democrats WON'T take the Senate and certainly won't take enough seats to convict the president. So the only other way Trump doesn't serve his full term is if he quits... I just don't see him resigning under pressure and the Senate won't convict him. My guess is he'd still run in 2020 too and if the economy keeps up it's current pace, the hapless democrat will lose again.

So, where are we going to go here? Keep playing political chicken with Trump? I'd recommend you not do that because he's shown that he doesn't blink very often and the electorate is getting very weary of all the trumped up "He's a criminal" hoopla and it's losing it's effect on them... But hey, knock yourself out.

Re:Some signs

[Tenebrousedge]

Please stop ascribing positions to me.

Again, whether the action is authorized is irrelevant to whether or not it can be considered obstruction.

I think that your predictions are mostly good, except that they neglect the scenario in which Trump is actually guilty of something. I'm sure it's an oversight. However, I also suspect that someone on the D team will find it politically expedient to attempt impeachment regardless of the results of either the elections or the Mueller investigation.

Uranium One

[Tenebrousedge]

Clinton did not have any authority to deny that trade deal. Uranium One isn't even an American company. For a couple years, some uranium was exported to Canada for processing, and returned to the US. Due to how that works, it can technically be said that some uranium mined in the US in that brief period was exported to Japan and western Europe. No one in the US sold a damn thing.

You are a liar.

Re:Are we blaming this on Trump

[losfromla]

I like it when the little red LED next to a user's name gets confirmed with their new posts... It cuts out ambiguity.

Re: Carpenters Like Hammers

[losfromla]

Thanks for posting this. I was too demotivated by the volume of ignorance to reply to the idiotic rightist AC poster.

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[losfromla]

You might want to ask for an increase in your meds. Also, please ask someone to hold your guns if the voices keep coming.

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[losfromla]

I doubt you'll continue with the smug attitude when your children blame you for the horror drumpf will have visited upon their future. Sadly, drumpf won't finish his term and the much more focusedly evil penis breath pence will.

Re:And economics?

[losfromla]

Applying math to a theoretical model does not make something a science. Economics is not science, it has no basis (no laws of physics) other than theories which have been proven false and inapplicable in all meaningful situations.

Re:And economics?

[losfromla]

I hate drumpft in ways that most of you can't imagine beginning to fathom. I am however in favor of tariffs, protectionism is how economies are built and industries fostered. It is what got China so big so quick. We need strategic tariffs to protect our industries. Instead of protecting extractionist and unadvanced industries like chemically based agriculture, we should be protecting and holding on to high-technology and advanced manufacturing. Our current policies are geared toward making us a third-world agricultural country.

Re: Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[orgelspieler]

He technically never gave classified info to anybody. Unfortunately, as soon as the president decides something is not classified, it is not classified. It might be stupid, but it's the way the law is written. Blame congress.

Re:Science, eh?

[losfromla]

None of what you said is correct.

An embryo has the potential to be a human but as it can't survive on its own, it isn't a human. Also, you aren't pro-life, you're pro-birth. Pro-life people don't want to incarcerate human beings for the thought crime of getting high on "disallowed" drugs.

Nuclear power is not the best option as its inherent dangers aren't worth the benefit. Solar, wind, water are much better options for power with less greenhouse gasses.

Science has never weighed in in GMOs, only corporations have lobbied to get them permitted with _zero_ long-term (or even short-term) studies having been performed on their effect on the human race. Vaccines have been shown to be ineffective in many cases thus adjuvants are added to "create" a reaction. Gluten is also harmful for most human beings but corporatist "science" (and sugared cereal) has convinced most of us that wheat is good for us.

Corporate run science with no oversight (our current situation) isn't science.

Re:Correction

[losfromla]

Brave words from an AC

Re:Science, eh?

[cavreader]

There is no difference between the far left or far right when it comes to dealing with science. Both sides have predetermined positions that they will never even think of changing no matter how many facts are presented to debunk their nonsensical view of reality.

Re:Are we blaming this on Trump

[Crashmarik]

Thanks, I have a crippling illness but you just lifted my spirits. It's always important to remember there are others worse off.

And yet we survive . .

[SSA-Ed]

"EPA's Science Advisory Board Has Not Met in 6 Months" Baloney. The world could not survive 6 months without that group of intellectuals meeting.

Re:Are we blaming this on Trump

[losfromla]

I am happy to have lifted your spirits. Hope you are doing well.

Remember that many of us are in support of people with crippling illnesses getting the help they need and are happy to pay taxes toward those ends. Same as we are happy to help support those who are in less-than-fortunate economic circumstances through the bad choice they made in being born to non-wealthy parents, or having been caught up in the racist legal system.

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[tbannist]

At this point, attacking Trump relentlessly about unproven theories will only strengthen his ability to defend himself during the campaign... "They've been attacking me on this since day one, where is their proof after 4 years? There isn't any. This is all they got, but I've got these results..." The only reason for keeping this up now is to stymie Trump's efforts to make things better because you are afraid they might actually work..

Trump's a born liar, he's going to make the argument that everything bad that anyone says about him is lies no matter what anyone does. It'll either be "they've been complaining for years about me" or "suddenly they have complaints about me because it's election time". Knowing Trump, he might actually say both of those in the same sentence. How about we just try to offer and accept honest criticism where it's due? Not everything Trump does is bad, but I'm hard pressed to come up with many examples where he did something good that he didn't immediately reverse course on.

Americans are definitely getting the best government that money can buy... for those with the money to buy it.

Blue Ribbon Panel

[huckamania]

We need a blue ribbon panel of agency experts to investigate the problem and advise the president. Oh wait, Hillary lost.

Re: Carpenters Like Hammers

[mixed_signal]

Well, count me in, anyway.

Re:Carpenters Like Hammers

[mixed_signal]

?? Feudal states were rather decentralized.

Re:Science, eh?

[Rakarra]

An embryo has the potential to be a human but as it can't survive on its own, it isn't a human.

Can a 2-day-old baby survive on its own? If not supported by other humans, they will die 100% of the time. "Can't survive on its own" is not a criteria scientists use to qualify if something is alive.

Re:Science, eh?

[losfromla]

Given adequate food, water, love, and safety, yes, it can survive on its own.
Scientists also don't use "my holy book written by a series of half insane ancient jewish guys says so" as the criteria.

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[bobbied]

So you are afraid that Trump's actions might actually work then... It's not about all the supposed crimes he's accused of committing, you admitted that... Maybe you just don't like him? No?

But you cannot bring yourself to say anything nice here? The tax cuts? The elimination of the ACA mandate? His massive reductions in the burdensome regulations his administration has been undoing? Nothing?

I suggest you actually go take a look at what he's really accomplished here. Not what the talking heads are saying, but what his administration has actually managed to do; look at the actual results.

He's not been perfect, but he's done a LOT of what he's promised and made a good effort on the rest of his campaign. Despite what you may have heard, he's actually been rather effective, especially given his past experience with political office.....

Re:And economics?

[HornWumpus]

They already did, 20+ years ago. Revenue stream is long dead, they can only beat a dead horse.

Re:And economics?

[HornWumpus]

Chinese machine tools are sloppy junk. They won't even buy them. They prefer German though. Jap hate keeps them from going there. The Germans are making fortunes manufacturing tools in S. Korea for China.

Chinese Cutters (end mills etc) are OK, but that industry is so automated they don't have a _huge_ advantage.

Re:Science, eh?

[Rakarra]

Given adequate food, water, love, and safety, yes, it can survive on its own.

Well, now we're adding more conditions.

There are babies born (sometimes through C-section, sometimes due to other trauma) extremely prematurely. The closer we hew to the natural 9-month cycle, the better for the resulting baby, but it's clear that there's no hard-and-fast line.

Scientists also don't use "my holy book written by a series of half insane ancient jewish guys says so" as the criteria.

Sure, but one doesn't have to be religious to have a moral objection to abortion.

Re:Science, eh?

[losfromla]

You're right. Conditions are necessary as they are in any real-life case. All humans require adequate, food, water, and safety for survival. Love seems to be more necessary for the newborns for healthy development though it should be there for optimality at any age.

You're right of course that one doesn't have to be religious to have a moral objection to abortion. One does have to be religious to be batshit insane loco crazy against abortion to the point of being willing to murder or wish death and all sorts of evil on people who make choices that disagree with their religious zealotry. More often than not, their religious fervor doesn't allow them to see the perversion they've made of their religion in the name of following their misinterpreted and misapplied doctrine.

Re:Are we blaming this on Trump

[Crashmarik]

Remember that many of us are in support of people with crippling illnesses getting the help they need and are happy to pay taxes toward those ends.

As a point of pride I have never taken a government handout or public charity. Instead of taxes perhaps you might think about giving to one of the many community organizations that are much more efficient at helping those in need.

Re: Are we blaming this on Trump

[losfromla]

Your particular situation or views doesn't change mine. Best wishes!

Refund?!

[martinfb]

Would the IRS please issue a refund of the taxes I paid for this non-operational agency?!

I'd rather it be fully implemented, yet, if it isn't doing anything, then stop paying them, and Pruitt.

Re:Carpenters Like Hammers

[prefec2]

The current Us government is weakening the ability of the state. Therefore, it cannot act on the behalf of the people. What you need is a powerful state and a lot of democratic control and checks and balances. For example, the parliament should be the place where laws are made. The president should only have executive powers. The main goal of the main state should be supporting social and technical standards, provide security when this cannot be done by each federal state etc. For example, the federal government should define minimal standards for police education and training, e.g., 3 years training + 3 years as a junior police officer in the field. The single states can then implement then this education scheme and employ the police officers. Is a state not wealthy enough to employ enough police officers they should get transfers from other states or the federal government, as crime does not stop at state borders.

Re:Donald Trump is a pure traitor.

[tbannist]

So you are afraid that Trump's actions might actually work then... It's not about all the supposed crimes he's accused of committing, you admitted that... Maybe you just don't like him? No?

You just don't understand people, do you? People aren't afraid that Trump's actions will work, they're afraid that they will fail spectacularly and everyone else will be left paying the bills for Trump's failures.

But you cannot bring yourself to say anything nice here?

Nope, when has Trump ever done anything nice?

The tax cuts?

Primarily going to the people who need the tax relief the least. It'll likely be popular but it's poor fiscal policy, America's children will be paying off the debt this tax break is going to incur for generations. It's yet another example of how the Baby Boomer generation has bankrupted America.

The elimination of the ACA mandate?

Yay. More sick people, how could that ever be bad?

His massive reductions in the burdensome regulations his administration has been undoing?

Poisoned water and air! The next generation is going to love that too.

Nothing?

See, you can't list anything good either.

Re: Are we blaming this on Trump

[Crashmarik]

You should try actually giving directly. Expecting the state to do things for you is isolating.

Re: Are we blaming this on Trump

[losfromla]

I never said I don't give directly. The state should definitely take care of the poor, the disabled, the addicted, you know, everyone with needs. Those things are too big for individuals to fix as are roads and infrastructure.
Those too proud to want help would still be free to start their own private charity or get help from private charity if they are so anti-government. I'm sure those people too would not want to drive on government roads, attend government schools, use government paramedics, or government firemen, etc. You know, to keep themselves pure like Ayn Rand (Alisa Zinovyevna Rosenbaum) would want them to be.

Paperwork ...

[RockDoctor]

Agency officials say the lapse isn't intentional and that it's just the result of delayed paperwork.

Some of the board members are resisting signing their suicide notes. no matter how many times we waterboard them, they just refuse to sign. It's not like we're going to shoot them, twice, in the back of the head once they've signed the note about how sad they are.

Maybe we'll just slip them a Mickey Finn, put them in their Tesla in the garage with the engine running, and leave them to die. That'll teach those pesky scientists to mess with businessmen!