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Ford's Badly Needed Plan To Catch Up On Hybrid, Electric Cars (arstechnica.com)
Ford supposedly has a plan to adapt to the changing world of transportation. The company recently announced that it's "going all-in on hybrids," readying six new battery electric vehicles by 2022, with the first due in 2020, and adding more performance versions of its SUV line up. "Additionally, by the end of 2019, every new Ford will have 4G LTE connectivity, and the company is developing a new cloud platform that will deliver over-the-air updates," reports Ars Technica. From the report: New hybrids: "Hybrids for years have been mostly niche products but are now on the cusp of a mainstream breakout," said Jim Farley, Ford president of global markets. "The valuable capability they offer -- plus fuel efficiency -- is why we're going to offer hybrid variants of our most popular and high-volume vehicles, allowing our loyal, passionate customers to become advocates for the technology." So America's best-selling truck (the F-150) will get the ability to act as a mobile generator, something that should come in handy on job sites. Meanwhile, the Mustang will have performance to match the 5.0L V8 version but with more low-down torque, according to Ford. The company says that these new hybrids will be cheaper and more efficient than its current hybrids, via "common cell and component design and by manufacturing motors, transmissions, and battery packs."
New BEVs: We have to wait for those new BEVs, too. The first of these -- an electric performance SUV -- also shows up in 2020, but with five more planned between then and 2022. Ford says that it's "rethinking the ownership experience" as part of this and that over-the-air software updates to add new features will be part of the $11 billion investment plan.
More SUVs, more commercial vehicles, a super Mustang: Other new vehicles on the way include a reborn Ford Bronco SUV and an as-yet unnamed small SUV, but before then we'll get redesigned Explorers and Escapes, due in 2019. Next year, Ford will also bring a new Transit van to the US, and it says advanced driver-assistance systems, like automatic emergency braking and others, will be added to future commercial vehicles like the future E-Series, F-650, F-750, and F59-based vehicles.
New BEVs: We have to wait for those new BEVs, too. The first of these -- an electric performance SUV -- also shows up in 2020, but with five more planned between then and 2022. Ford says that it's "rethinking the ownership experience" as part of this and that over-the-air software updates to add new features will be part of the $11 billion investment plan.
More SUVs, more commercial vehicles, a super Mustang: Other new vehicles on the way include a reborn Ford Bronco SUV and an as-yet unnamed small SUV, but before then we'll get redesigned Explorers and Escapes, due in 2019. Next year, Ford will also bring a new Transit van to the US, and it says advanced driver-assistance systems, like automatic emergency braking and others, will be added to future commercial vehicles like the future E-Series, F-650, F-750, and F59-based vehicles.
I don't need to call tech support while crusing down the road at 120kph for 2 hours until I get a connection to the internet in order to stop my car, we'll be good. (Read: FU Benz, FU).
Call me a luddite, but I much prefer cars that have mechanical linkages and less software. Generally speaking, the mechanical engineers have a few hundred years of mistakes and experience under their belt. Software developers on the other hand are drunk on the gold rush of disruption and won't stay up thinking about my safety after their nightly hookers and blow and government regulators won't put them in jail for fear of dampening the hysteria.
...would be a genuine low emissions, super high efficiency diesel engine under the hydrid package. Good electronics and battery tech mean you could optimize the diesel's operating parameters.
It's dead, Jim.
The same issue Ford and Chevy both have is they sell a lot of big vehicles. This hurts their Cafe average and its why your seeing many small liter engines and hybrids creep into their fleets. Not to mention China has plenty of incentives to keep engines under 1.5 liters. When you start building world car platforms you tend to make them castrated for the tightest countries. Here in America though people still want big vehicles and big engines. Probably why many buy pickups, not for hauling stuff but for a big engine.
All I could find were Chrysler Pacifica and Dodge Durango.
lots of mention of how they keep car s/ware patched ... no mention of what else they might use the 4G connection for -- maybe slurping data, like where I have been and sell that data on. They will have an interesting time coping with the upcoming EU GDPR.
If someone can make it work trucks powered by electric motors off batteries topped up by turbines is probably the medium term way to go. The emissions are way better as is fuel economy.
Their bread-and-butter products, the Panda, the 500 and the Punto, are all on ancient platforms. They seem to have very little investment budget and what they have, they spend on trying to resurrect Alfa Romeo, with little success so far.
...every new Ford will have 4G LTE connectivity
I'm going to have to spend even More money every month for my Car's cellular plan on top of my cell phone?
First, the Sirius/XM in-your-face push for subscription fees, and now this?
Are they going to add wiper/tire/washer fluid subscriptions as well?
Get me a Certified Dumb Vehicle, please! The cost of vehicle ownership is already getting out of hand, and for anyone in the lower income brackets, it's even harder to have a vehicle to get and hold even a minimum wage job these days...
Will the workers at service centers need training and new tools and equipment to diagnose and repair these new vehicles? Independent shops have been prevented from having what they need to work on some cars and trucks.
I don't want over-the-air updates for my car.
I want a reliable car that works when I get it, doesn't need troubleshooting, doesn't need patching, because it works. Treat my car like a fucking computer and not an engine powering a frame and wheels and I'm going to find a different car.
Always on the cusp
Ford actually has an engineering department - acoustic engineers - whose sole job is to make the exhaust sound "bad-ass" for their trucks and the Mustang. GM and Chrysler have the same.
Those - mostly men- would never buy electric unless forced to. Many of them don't even use their pick-ups for work. Just for show. They're called "No-nos"
There are trucks that are just luxurious as a Mercedes. And the margins are just as fat if not fatter.
In other words, the market wants big engines that go "VRRROOOOOOOM!"
Would that was just Ford that finds itself in this position. The German car makers just got a swift ass kicking in the form of the diesel emissions cheating scandal that caused WV just sink EUR 20 billion (that's USD 25 billion) to secure future battery supplies meaning that they are finally getting serious on pluggable hybrids and electrics. Just to keep that in perspective, it's worth keeping in mind that the fine they got for the diesel emissions cheating was also USD 25 billion. It just goes to show these bozos only learn through pain caused by money disappearing from the wallet. I'm assuming that many other car manufacturers in the US, Europe and the rest of the world now find themselves in a similar position as Ford and WV, i.e. playing a game of catch-up. This is basically a race to secure as much of the existing battery production capacity as possible because it is limited and (according to Bloomberg) it will take up to 10 years and a massive investment to expand it significantly so it's first come first serve unless you have the cash to build your own battery factories like Tesla has done and sink your own cash into mining. The companies that are late to the party will go belly-up or disappear in mergers just like all those venerable old camera manufacturers who bet that digital will never surpass the quality of film. We'll probably also see a bunch of companies that make things like electric powered fork lifts or electric engines expanding into car manufacture just like we saw computer manufacturers and then cellphone makers start making digital cameras or camera/gadget hybrids like smartphones. In 10 years some of us might find ourselves driving the new Komatsu or Jungheinric sedan (and if you think that's a weird thought remember that Lamborghini used to make tractors). The really interesting part is that in 2014 we got an oil market crash because of 2 million barrel daily overproduction of oil in a market where daily production is ~90 billion barrels, so what will happen when electric cars have eaten up 10-15% of the car market? ... since something like 75% of oil is used for transport and a lot of that is for cars. Then there is the look on Jeremy Clarkson's face when he has to rename his show 'Top foot-pedal accelerator senor value'.
Can't tell if this will be a good thing or not. Since the first announcement of this, the consumer in the US has only seen the "Transit Connect", which isn't really a Transit van but rather a smaller imitation of one (that doesn't really quite fit into the minivan category either). The full size Transit is something of a replacement for the old Econoline vans, but Ford forgot to market them so they aren't really selling (and they are only supposed to be sold directly to commercial buyers for no obvious reason).
If this nebulously defined "new Transit van" is either an actual minivan (Ford hasn't had a minivan in quite some time - and with the exception of Chrysler the minivan segment has been thoroughly and utterly dominated in the US by Honda and Toyota) or an actual work van like the Econoline (but available on the sales floor for regular buyers) then they could have something.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Ford had at least one BEV in the 90s and they killed it.
Toyota would like to have a word with you, Jim. So unsuccessful with the Prius that tools in their diesel trucks like to roll coal when they see them. A lot of them.
But seriously, statements like that show why Ford is far behind in the field.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Remember that FCA includes Jeep, which they've spent a lot of money trying and failing to make "cool" in Europe.
Diesels depend on being hot. They are utterly unsuited to a hybrid duty cycle.
The term "hybrid duty cycle" is extremely vague in your usage. No you wouldn't use a diesel like an Atkinson Cycle engine on a Prius. You would use a diesel like you would on a locomotive. The diesel is running continuously and acts as the power source for a generator for the electric motors that actually turn the wheels. No direct drive from the diesel to the wheels. It should be an excellent way for large trucks (particularly long haul versions) to hybridize. You could have battery banks to power the electric motors without the diesel for shorter trips or to get up to speed periods. Batteries would also allow plug in hybrids in some use cases.
Honestly I have no idea why diesel electric hybrids are not a thing with large trucks aside from the fact that economics of scale aren't in play for them yet. I would think a hybrid electric pickup with a battery bank for running tools and the huge torque of electric motors would be an ideal work truck. Similarly a hybrid semi with a diesel engine driving electric motors for long haul transport seems hugely logical to me. I understand that the early versions would be expensive but the upside seems to be pretty clear.
1-Pick a large American city. 2-Install wireless charging points everywhere in that city, preferably drive on/off mats or coils in the pavement. Bonus points if you install them at traffic lights and at the mall. 3-Roll out EV cars that use those chargers. Congratulations, you now have critical mass in the EV business.
Hybrids are a waste of time at this point. Pure electric is the way forward, with a rapid charger network and a few ICE models for edge cases.
Not true at all. The "rapid" charge networks aren't rapid enough yet to displace gasoline in widespread use. I can refuel my car in under 5 minutes at any gas with enough fuel to travel >350 miles. Fully charging a Tesla Model S on a supercharger takes 75 minutes and even ~170 miles of range takes 30 minutes. Definitely good but not good enough, even allowing for the fact that EVs will be charged at home/work most of the time. Not to mention that these "rapid" chargers are no where near ubiquitous.
Don't make perfect the enemy of good. I share your enthusiasm for EVs and I think they probably will dominate like you suggest in the long run. But hybrids will play an important role in getting us there. Our fueling infrastructure like it or not is optimized for gasoline and recharge times for EVs still have to be improved to make them practical for long haul transport. We also would need a LOT more charging stations in a lot more places. Furthermore the electric grid is going to need to see MASSIVE upgrades for EVs to really take over significant market share. That will take time which hybrids do not require. I can see all of these upgrades and technological improvements happening but it's going to take a few decades to really come to fruition. In the mean time hybrids are a useful bridge.
Every EV that is just an ICE with an electric drive train fitted is crap.
I've driven plenty of those vehicles and could not disagree more.
The problem is towing long distances, the batteries are just too expensive to do that at this point.
A problem neatly solved by designing a power train that resembles that of a locomotive. Diesel engine runs and provides the power to turn the electric motors. Batteries are present to facilitate short haul movement and acceleration and allow the diesel to run at a constant speed where it is optimized but they don't have to be massive batteries like in the Tesla semi.
If I were them, I'd wait even longer - let the whole industry shake out and make its mistakes. Personally, I'm not convinced there's a huge market now anyway, especially after all the governmental subsidies are withdrawn.
Ford, being one who was robbed of it's glory of not needing bailed out and should have won all the American automotive client base, should tell everyone else to PISS OFF.
Someone should look at this. Not only do they have the best selling vehicle (the F series truck, which outsells ALL electric vehicles by almost a factor of 5), but they have two in the top 10 for electric vehicles. I think someone's politics is writing this story, if you look at the actual facts they will see that Ford actually has a good profit margin for auto makers, dominates a major space (light duty trucks), and competes well within the tiny market called electric vehicles (two of the top 10). Given the realities of the market as a whole, it seems they are actually very well positioned for the future. But hey - politics, global warming, solar, Tesla!
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Cat wait to make ford as one of our cars.. Thanks, by sewa mobil jogja
Remember that FCA includes Jeep, which they've spent a lot of money trying and failing to make "cool" in Europe.
And Jeep is all that's keeping FCA afloat right now. Nobody wants their shitty FWD van, everyone who wants a 500 already has one... Jeep isn't cool in Europe because everyone over there already has their own classic 4x4 (e.g. Land Rover, UNIMOG, Pinzgauer, etc.) and/or has memories of enemies rolling into their country in G.I. Jeeps.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
In the 80's and 90's, when lead-acid batteries still ruled, some of the most popular EV conversion vehicles were compact pickups like the Ford Ranger and Chevy S-10. Ford even sold a production Ranger EV from 1998-2002. With the current popularity of pickup trucks, why is no one producing an electric pickup? How hard can it be?
Making Jeep cool is probably impossible. They specialise in vehicles that are inherently devoid of any sportiness or stylishness whatsoever. They're probably good off-roaders, though, but that's a small market.
As a lot of car owners buy off, there has been a huge problem with Ford's bottom-line. The antic of the car industry has significantly changed over the course of the last month. As a result, it has led to people using Ford cars for racing part, especially the Focus. People grow the part, and many put the part up for sale, as if they were the new Subaru. A lot of people live to jack cars, but the news article here indicates that the jacking can be done with a Hybrid. I am trying to keep positive as Ford goes through this. I am an owner of a Ford 'Flex,' and I am one of the few Ford owners that is GEICO insured.
You won't be cruising down the road.
Remember!
Found
On
Road
Dead
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Industrially is site monitor warnings in places where the site would either otherwise be unmonitored, where having humans on-site would be more hazardous than the worst case failure, or where passive non-critical monitoring is acceptable.
While there are lots of situations where it is used that don't fit in the above categories, most of them really are unacceptable in a theoretical sense. In a reality sense, well you work with what you're given and what others are willing to budget for it.
depicted in that Will Smith and Robert DeNiro movie where the rogue CIA/NSA guy was coming after them.
DeNiro drove an old 70s or early 80s sedan explicitly because it didn't have any computers onboard. While I had scoffed at it at the time (computers in cars were only on while the car was running and none of them controlled more than the engine timing/fuel supply and abs at the time, meaning you could safely stop even if the computers freaked out.) Nowadays all that is controlled by the computer. You have to go out of your way to buy a car that still has a manual clutch and shift mechanism and all of those have software controlled abs, traction control, etc, meaning a software failure or intentional sabotage can disable those systems at any time and then wipe themselves potentially allowing gaslighting-esque attacks on people you are trying to kill/scare/discredit. At least in the old days sabotaging a car would leave evidence, but with our modern software based society, if you are in the right position of power, you can create a chain of accidents that mainstream society will never think twice about while leaving no evidence of your misdeeds, unless you were very sloppy.
Which major motor companies basically went bankrupt and had to be bailed out by Obama...
It is not used because it is inefficient.
Diesel electirc isn't used in road going vehicles because they currently are expensive to make. Their potential efficiency is not actually in question. There are already diesel hybrids that have been developed and some are already in use and they are more fuel efficient and less polluting than their diesel only counterparts. The obstacle to them is price and to a lesser extend emissions restrictions on diesels in general in comparison to gasoline-hybrids.
You seem to have missed the point. I'm not suggesting scaling down locomotive engines. I merely used that as an example to explain the concept of using a diesel engine to power electric motors rather than to drive wheels directly. The technology in such a hybrid for a truck would obviously be quite different in actual practice.
Diesel electric locomotives (and very large mining trucks) are this way because a conventional transmission would be far too large and heavy and would require the engine to be used in a large range of engine speeds.
Apples to oranges. That says nothing about why diesel-electric would or would not work in road going vehicles. The economics are a limitation but there is clear evidence that efficiency is not the limitation. They don't use it on larger more powerful locomotives because the cost and difficulty of scaling a mechanical transmission does not scale linearly making the designs that have been tried uneconomical. In smaller applications mechanical drive is sometimes more competitive BUT that does not mean that a diesel-electric cannot surpass them in efficiency and/or cost depending on the application.
Smaller diesel trains do use a conventional transmission because the fuel consumption is lower.
Diesel mechanical get used for cost reasons because of the application. Mechanical transmissions are often simpler than and generally less expensive so for certain corner case applications they can make sense. They are used mostly in switchers where fuel efficiency is not the paramount concern. Switchers are analogous to tug boats - tractive effort and repairability are paramount concerns over fuel economy. But again this does not necessarily translate to the requirements of road going trucks.
One would think that the diesel-electric designs that have existed for many decades on locomotives would be easily transferred to road truck designs.
I don't think it would be a direct application but the general concept would be very similar. I think the main obstacles are mostly economic ones. For it to become economical the hybrid system has to be manufactured at scale but until it is, it isn't cost competitive. My guess is that you'll probably first see it in some form of work truck like a pickup marketed towards construction workers. That's the biggest market I think so it's kind of the logical place to start. But right now we have a sort of chicken vs egg problem. It's too expensive right now because it isn't at scale and it isn't at scale because it's too expensive.
Is the I.P. all tied up in the companies that make locomotives?
I doubt that is a serious obstacle. Possibly some but I'm sure companies like Ford could negotiate an appropriate licensing agreement. If anything the holders of such IP should be drooling at the chance to get licensing fees from a product that brings in as many billions as pickups and semis do.
Regulations on CO2 emission in EU are being tightened up. (decision was made back in 2012, actually)
All car manufacturers would need to pay about 100 Euros for each extra 1g of CO2 over something around 100g CO2. (that's average over all sold cars)
Diesel engines are actually more efficient as far as CO2 metrics go, but after VW scandal, demand for diesel cars dropped sharply.
So the only options car manufacturers (all of them, not only Ford) have, is:
1) Sell more pure electric vehicles (0 CO2)
2) Go hybrid
3) Raise prices
Ford has a horrible privacy policy in line with On stars data slurping practices.
Only buy a ford if YOU can disable the 4G connectivity.
It's not all that bad of an idea. You're really just mitigating the risk of not finding a charging station, which in the early days might be often. I've been looking at a rather expensive electric, but I have trouble getting past the whole 100 or even 200 mile range, and that is if you can find a charging station.
However conceivably you could just buy an all electric, then throw an electric generator in the trunk, and some gas containers, and that would offset the risk a bit if you do take a long trip someplace... How well that might work would be a good question. That seems very much a Top Gear kind of experiment...