Slashdot Mirror
Duolingo To Silicon Valley Workers: Move To Pittsburgh, Where You Can Actually Afford a Home (venturebeat.com)
As the cost of living continues to rise in Silicon Valley, tech companies in other parts of the country are getting more aggressive in pitching workers to move to their cities for a better quality of life. From a report: This week, the language-learning platform Duolingo put up an ad along San Francisco's US Highway 101, encouraging residents to move to Pittsburgh where the company's headquarters are based. In Pittsburgh, you can both "work in tech" and "own a home," the ad touted. Duolingo CEO Luis von Ahn told VentureBeat in an email that the company was prompted to put up the ad after realizing that most of its Pittsburgh employees who relocated to the city cited the low cost of housing as one of the deciding factors.
Von Ahn said that 85 percent of the company's Pittsburgh-based employees moved to the city from somewhere else. The company has 110 employees, the majority of whom work out of Pittsburgh. "One [employee] who recently joined Duolingo moved from the Bay Area and ended up buying a house almost immediately," von Ahn said. "He said he never would have been able to do that before, but here in Pittsburgh, he found a reasonably priced home on a large plot of land and jumped on the opportunity to be a homeowner and have a huge yard for his dog."
Von Ahn said that 85 percent of the company's Pittsburgh-based employees moved to the city from somewhere else. The company has 110 employees, the majority of whom work out of Pittsburgh. "One [employee] who recently joined Duolingo moved from the Bay Area and ended up buying a house almost immediately," von Ahn said. "He said he never would have been able to do that before, but here in Pittsburgh, he found a reasonably priced home on a large plot of land and jumped on the opportunity to be a homeowner and have a huge yard for his dog."
In my old city there were tons of posts for jobs. It turns out it was the same 3 recruiters posting the same jobs over and over again. There were actually very, very few tech jobs. Meanwhile I left behind several friends who bought houses and got stuck in really shitty dead end jobs when they found out how bad the job market really is. Meanwhile I left behind several friends who bought houses and got stuck in really shitty dead end jobs when they found out how bad the job market really is. They're trapped. Upside down on a house as the job market got worse and/or not making enough money to save for the move.
I got lucky. I was born there but left for a job I happened to land by a combination of skill and dumb luck. Thing is, I've got a kid in college. As long as I'm willing to live like crap in a big city then the high pay lets me pay for her school. Had I not landed the job I have now I'd still be trapped and she'd be going to a shitty community college and on her way to a crap career.
So unless Pittsburgh has the jobs for real then techies had best steer clear. And it's damn hard to tell. Maybe fly out there and try meeting with people at the local computer club.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Well, you could choose Houston or Austin, if you don't like the cold! Houses in both cities are very affordable compared to Silicon Valley standards, and there are plenty of tech jobs.
There are plenty of smart people already here, Duolingo. We don't need more jagoffs from the Bay Area; the managers from Amazon HQ are already enough of a pain in the butt to work with.
your neighbors are less likely to be purple-haired weirdos who sexually identify as their own house.
There is an important point here. What good is a six figure income, if you have a six figure cost of living?
;)
Heck, I have been a self employed contract computer programmer for the last 30+ years, I only go to my office 2 miles from my house 2-3 times a month. I work remote on most everything from my home office with 1-2 local on sites a month with my local clients. I didn't even drive my car the last 2 weeks of Feb 2018.
The illusion that for IT you need to be in one of the high cost urban centers is untrue. Think for yourself, think outside the box.
Just my 2 cents
I feel like home ownership is a major life goal. It's certainly in the best interests of the people at the top as you are enslaved to a 15 or 30 year mortgage and can be counted on to pay into the many avenues of maintenance that comes with home ownership: not only house maintenance, but community maintenance in the form of taxes and bonds.
What does CA have that no other part of the USA has?
since you asked: https://answers.yahoo.com/ques...
Okay, you can snow ski and water ski in the same day, Earthquakes, Death Valley; with the lowest, hottest and driest place in North America. It's 282 feet below sea level, is only 2 degrees below the worlds record of the hottest day ever recorded at 134 F and the average rain fall is about one and a half inches. We have more people in prison than any other state at more than 170,000. We have more cars than any one else. California is the biggest melting pot in the world. Every fourth person was born in a different country. Mount Whitney, 14,505 feet tall and is the highest place in the 48 states. And only 85 miles from Death Valley. Silicon Valley, home to Google, Yahoo, E-Bay, Apple.......too many to list computer company's. Oh the most cell phones, the most area codes. The Biggest and oldest living things on the planet. The Giant Sequoia Red Wood trees. This could go on forever. I hope I helped out.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
I am still flabbergasted by the number of companies who post positions for developers with "NO REMOTE WORK". In this day and age, a company whose main front-facing presence is a web or mobile app has absolutely -no- excuse to demand in-office presence, given the huge economic gradient presented by some urban centers. If they really want the best talent, drop the requirement for relocation, damn it!
For example there was an article recently in the news about how Vancouver tech companies couldn't find enough workers to fill their positions; they admitted workers were hesitant to move into the area due to housing costs. Well duh, then don't require your workforce to live in one of the most expensive areas in Canada!
Management that demands in-office developers is either out of touch with modern collaboration/tracking tools, or just plain does not trust their workers. I wouldn't want to work for a company with either of those flaws.
Don't go to Houston or Austin. Houston is the armpit of America. You have to air condition 10 months out of the year and you can't enjoy being outside because it's over 100 degrees F with 90% humidity most of the time. There's ungodly traffic and bugs and it's the ugliest city I've ever seen. The only reason to move to Houston is if you have a plan to go there for a year, make a lot of money and then leave. It's awful. The people there are great and the food is great, but it's one big expressway and everything is 30 min to an hour away. I lived in the best part of town and it still was complete shit. There were concerts in the Miller Outdoor Theater all the time, but you couldn't go because you felt like you were suffocating. And, they have hurricanes, which I learned about first hand back at the end of August. Also, there are mosquitoes the size of pigeons.that will attack you if you so much as open your car window (not that you would open your car window because it's stifling outside.
Austin is much nicer, but it's also very hot and very crowded and the traffic is awful and it's played out. If you want to go to Austin, take a trip there in December or something, but unless you've got something going at SXSW. Avoid at all costs. Also, it's in the State of Texas, which might sound good because there's no state income tax, but food is a lot more expensive and you'll spend a ton on utilities to air condition your place and you will be unhappy because it's a very ugly place. Like Houston, most people are nice, but few assholes there are run the state.
Pittsburgh is better. Yes, there's an awful winter, but the people are authentic, you can afford to live there, it has a great music scene and actual history and neighborhoods and human beings outside. And it's a short drive to something beautiful. Unlike Houston. You know how in most cities you can drive for an hour and you'll be out in the country and it will be nice? You can drive for an entire day from Houston and not see anything nice. I'm serious. Nothing but oil refineries in two directions, swamp in another direction and scrub in the other direction.
Don't undervalue the importance of living somewhere beautiful.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Judging from the comments so far, I don't think Duolingo is going to have many takers. However, I lived in Pittsburgh for almost 20 years before I moved back to Ca, so I would like to give it my endorsement. We bought a 5 bedroom house in a good school district for $255k. There's a lot to do in the city. It has museums, professional sports teams, good restaurants, etc... Life is less stressful; people are friendly. It's a family-oriented city, and Pittsburgh is often voted "most livable" city in the U.S. by various magazines. Now, the weather is not great, but it also doesn't get a lot of snow in the winter. Certainly it is nothing like what people imagine if they are still thinking steel mills - those all closed 30-40 years ago. The air is clean and the countryside is beautiful. Now, the big players are health care, research, and universities.
CA has some of the highest state taxes ever.
Until this year those could be written off your fed bill.
Thats why. And why dems are so pissed.
CA is going to see their true costs reflected in many places.
And oh they're pissed the rest of us are not subsidizing them anymore.
Pittsburg has a lot of snow. Also one in three people will try to rape you daily.
I lived in Houston for about half of my life and being from there I learned to deal with all the problems. Moving back to Houston would be terrible. After living in Phoenix I found the humidity unbearable whenever I go back. I didn't mind the heat in Phoenix all that much though.
I've lived in Pittsburgh 4 years. The winters weren't all that bad. I did think it was funny that my hair would sometimes freeze in the morning though. Imagine that - leave the house with wet hair in freezing weather and it freezes. Ah, the things I learned in college.
Now I live in a mid-sized town in Colorado and absolutely love it. I'm not going to complain about the winter here too much but when it gets down to zero or below I try not to leave the house.
The mosquitoes in Houston aren't actually the size of pigeons. They just swarm together so much it seems that way.
3 major things keep companies in California, all related to talent
1) Weather. Let's face it, California weather is hard to beat. Most places you have to worry about running the AC and dehumidifier, or worry about running the heater and paying for heating oil, along with clothing and maintenance costs to deal with the weather. California gets to skip all of that, or have it as an optional thing you just pay for if you want it (mountain cabin, home out in the Inland Empire).
2) Non competes and at will. Non competes are void here, so companies have no real way to chain people to their work if they are good. Employees can walk. It is also at will, which means employers are also not chained to their employees if they suck. Employers can walk. This promotes the greatest mobility of workers and business, and tends to arrive at situations where both sides get what they want.
3) Infrastructure. Specifically the master plan of education of California which leads to the Cal State and UC systems which pump out grads to satisfy the tech industry, as well as the other major industries. This plus the private universities means theirs plenty of good people to pick from.
All the above lead to a demand that makes California expense. On top of this, the housing market is distorted because California citizens voted themselves incredibly low property taxes, which promotes never selling properties. This means for many companies, they get property taxes that can not be found anywhere else, despite the high property values.
Most of the companies I consult for offer multi-thousand-dollar referral fees if I get someone to work there. They're more interested in quality people than the tax rate.
Bruce Perens.
Oh, hey, another pack of lies from a hatemonger!
In fact, California is 42nd per capita in amount of money received from the feds per dollar spent in taxes:
http://www.politifact.com/cali...
Californians in fact receives roughly 22% LESS per capita than the national average.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
What does CA have that no other part of the USA has? What keeps the SJW brands management paying so much just to stay in CA? ...
Is the very fact that parts of CA are so expensive the reason why the SJW brands like CA? ...
Why don't shareholders do the math to show their brand could make more money and pass back larger profits in many other better US states?
First, the weather. And CA does have a good University system.
Second, the decision-makers for these companies have no problem paying 2-3x for living expenses. The board members are local. The VCs are local. Who cares if you overpay for a house when your bank account is well into 8 figures?
Sure employees can't afford to own a house, but who cares when you can just import people who will be happy to live in an overpriced 1-bedroom apartment?
Third, paying extra for salaries tends to be a secondary concern. It’s not something that makes the difference between success and failure for most companies. And when they want to try to push margins up, they do it by employing people in Asia, not by hiring in Wisconsin or Ohio.
A better question is "Why don't they push California government to stop wasting half the money the CA government takes in?" I'm guessing they think they'd start seeing government inspectors and auditors show up to fuck with them — so they just stay quiet instead.
Also, "Why not open an office in southern CA? Irvine or Thousand Oaks or San Diego?" The weather is even a little nicer and it's only a 1 hour flight. Housing is cheaper, but still expensive compared to the rest of the US. University system is the same. I don’t know what stops them from doing this. Maybe they just don’t care about their employees.
I visited Houston once. Everything is bigger in Texas, even the compact cars. At least, that's what I told myself when I saw giant SUV's parked in spots that had signs saying, "compact cars only".
Fuck that. The quality of life in the Bay Area is much higher than Pittsburgh, Houston, Austin or anywhere in the US. The only way to get better quality of life is to move out of the country, which is what I did 20 years ago when I moved to the Netherlands and then Norway.
If you moved out of the country 20 years ago, you have no fucking idea what the quality of life is in the Bay Area.
Shit changes.
Well, you could choose Houston or Austin, if you don't like the cold! Houses in both cities are very affordable compared to Silicon Valley standards, and there are plenty of tech jobs.
HOLD that thought there cowboy.
I came to Humble (suburb of Houston) in 2014 because of jobs jobs jobs and my previous employer offered me a position with a tick up in responsibility if I moved from Florida (Tampa area). Tampa back then had a HUGE unemployment rate over 10% and was still suffering in the Great Recession.
Housing prices back in 2014 were cheap. I suffering from the Great Recession lost my savings so I was planning to rebuild and buy a home in Houston by now.
Texas had the lowest unemployment rate, cheap housing, mild sub tropical climate, lots and lots of jobs, never entered the recession. .... Fast forward to 2018
Oil and gas prices have tumbled!! I have been laid off 3 times now. All my coworkers who used to make money hands over fist are making $25/hr with no benefits as contractors. I was laid off again as cheap Indians are going to fly in and take our department jobs away thanks to the Gartners Group efficiency experts. Housing prices have gone up 30%!
The job market in Texas is terrible now thanks to the energy industry race to the bottom as the price of oil is still down 70% from 2014. If you are in tech you are not employed in Exxon, Shell, etc. Unless of course you are an H1B1 visa holder.
Meanwhile my phone is ringing off the hook from Florida recreuiters. Tampa is NOW HOT and they are struggling to find competent I.T. workers. Pent up demand from the last recession hit my former place.
My point is in 2018 things have flipped. Once was hot is cold and vice versa.
http://saveie6.com/
I rather think worrying about feeding a furnace in Pittsburgh is a bit overblown.
A few stats:
Average temperature: 52F
Annual high temperature: 61.4F
Average annual precipitation - rainfall: 34.8 inch
Annual low temperature: 42.6F
And snow ??
Snowfall is 27 inches. The average US city gets 26 inches of snow per year.
On average, there are 160 sunny days per year in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The July high is around 84 degrees. The January low is 22. Sperling's comfort index for Pittsburgh is a 52 out of 100, where a higher score indicates a more comfortable year-around climate. The US average for the comfort index is 54.
So, pretty much an average climate, with a much lower cost-of-living than the Bay Area.
You mention supposed "open mindedness." Would some one who isn't black or gay welcome? Or does open mindedness have limits?
Engineers are required to be licensed and are criminally liable for defective work that harms. Are you under such requirements?
If no, you are NOT an engineer.
Sounds like you did not have a pool in Houston. Or a decent backyard. I'm on less than 1/3 of an acre and I can't see my neighbors, OR my fence, due to all the shrubbery. It's a botanical pool garden back there. If you aren't taking advantage what your local climate has to offer, you're doing it wrong. Houston has a lot to offer as long as you actually adapt to living there. This is from a guy who left Houston once because I hated it, and came back after living in several other places
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Nashville. No TN Income tax, weather between Austin and Pittsburgh. Lots of Healthcare companies and tech has been booming lately.
I was living in an average home on a postage-stamp sized lot. I work from home, so I moved onto a one-acre private treed lot.. In a place where I can get this 10 minutes away from a major city. You would not believe what it has done for my stress level, being able to walk out and see nature every day instead of my neighbors.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I'm sorry to hear your experience with Houston was so terrible! Yes, it has its problems, but I would hardly call it "armpit of America."
I'm pretty sure Houston's traffic isn't any worse than freeway traffic in Silicon Valley, I've driven in both places. I agree with you that it's hot and humid, and that is one of Houston's issues. For some people, that's a bigger problem than for others. Personally, I don't want to live anywhere that's cold.
By the way, there are nice parts of town and bad parts of town, just like anywhere. And there are indoor concerts, you don't have to go to Miller. In fact, Houston is #2 to NYC in number of arts venues (and number of seats), most of which are indoors.
I have a co-worker who moved from San Jose last year, and he has no desire to go back! He and his wife love the friendliness of the people.
Like with any place, there are pros and cons, you have to decide which are important to you.
The troubles you have experienced are certainly true of the oil industry. I've lived in Houston for 28 years and never worked in oil, and I've never experienced the ups and downs of the job market like you describe. When I interview programmers, I have to make offers fast, because they are getting 2-3 job offers! We've lost several good candidates recently because we didn't move quickly enough!
The thing about the oil business is that it's cyclical. When it's hot, it's hot, and when it's cold, it's terrible. But if you stay outside that industry, life is much more stable.
They will, eventually, wise up and move their operations to a lower cost of living area and save gobs of cash from salaries alone.
If companies were too stupid to realize this 20 years ago, then they're too stupid to realize it now or anytime in the future. VPNs and remote work has been a viable concept for well over a decade now, so companies don't even have the lame excuse of having to set up operations where the "talent" is.
Nothing will change.
You're glossing over the Pittsburgh Left Turn and the Pittsburgh Crapper.
Pittsburgh Left: First person in line at the stop light makes a left turn when the light turns green, cutting off opposing traffic instead of yielding as required by law, as Pittsburgh lacks left turn arrows at most stop lights.
Pittsburgh Crapper: A toilet and sink in an unfinished basement with no surrounding walls, installed because an unfinished rough-in was not allowed per plumbing code back when many houses were built. Super classy and extra fun at parties.
This author really think San Franciscans are going to move to Pittsburgh for a cheap home, when they can move to literally any city in the nation other than NYC for a "cheap" home? I think San Franciscans are far more likely to end up in San Diego or some other CA city than Pittsburgh.
San Francisco is historically beautiful, buy what’s “quality of life” about needles crunching underfoot, and bums reaching out to grab you as you walk down the street?
Around here, when needles crunch underfoot you’re under a pine tree.
You didn't even listen to what he said. You just saw the word "tax" and started spewing dogma, like an auto-comment script. He said that state taxes used to be able to be taken off your federal taxes, due to some stupid law. This incentivized high state taxes and no consequences. Now, with the stupid law eliminated, high tax jurisdictions are going to feel the pain of their own taxes instead of passing them off to others.
Besides, it is a standard feature of leftism that those who have the most should share their wealth with the less fortunate. Regardless of "deserving" status. California should be proud to contribute so much.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
I've lived in Austin for 15 years. 1. Traffic. When I moved there in 2002, 183 wasn't even extended north past Duval and traffic sucked. In 2017, the 183A is built but the traffic jam begins even further south now, at Mopac and 183. Rush hour begins around 6:45am in the morning and around 3pm in the evening. 2. In Austin you have to move closer to work. If you live in Cedar Park/Leander and work in downtown, that's 1 hour commute each way on lightrail or drive. You might as well move. And there's no "commute against traffic". 3. Anyone wanting to move to Austin needs to spend a week looking and live traffic on google maps, then decide. 4. Food is awesome. We moved to Midwest...food here is bland compared to Austin. I've become a lot more proficient at smoking/grilling now that I can't get decent BBQ here. 5. People are weird. 6. Weather sucks. Yes, it's not as humid as Houston, but it's still 80F+ 9 months out of a year, with suffocating humidity even at 10pm at night. Not windy at all, so walking your dog at night is still like taking a shower. A very stinky shower. 7. Did I mention traffic? 8. And even then, Houston weather is worse than Austin's. I used to drive to Houston few times a year for track days/race events. Sleeping at the race track in a tent was unbearable in Houston. You have mosquitoes, swarms of them, and 90% humidity even at night. It's really really unpleasant.
Yes, Pittsburg sounds like a much better option for you.
The air in Houston, by the way, is no more polluted than LA or the Bay Area.
You may not like Republican politics (I don't either, since Trump). But it's significant that in general, people in the US are moving FROM blue states TO red states.
I'm glad you found a place more suitable to your liking.
So a company has to stay in a state to support the travel lifestyle of its workers after work?
Yes.
I briefly lived in a dying industrial town in upstate New York. The job was incredibly interesting. The pay was very good. There were lots of opportunities for career advancement. And I moved away.
When you leave work, you don't want to enter an environment where the local Exxon station sells crack pipes. And decides to lose their Exxon branding instead of no longer selling crack pipes. Where everyone you pass has a giant cloud of doom over them due to the terrible local economy. Where there is one non-fast-food-quality option for dining out. And so on.
The reason for the high pay and advancement opportunities was the company had a very hard time recruiting people to live in that crappy place. So much so that recruitment and retention were an enormous drag on their overall business. So yes, businesses do need to consider the lifestyle of their workers outside work. Because it will be a large factor in whether or not they are able to find workers.
Everything you just stated, except for the HVAC system issues, can be said about Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, etc
Nope.
Silicon Valley formed because of the combination of Stanford, Berkeley and several other UCs, and companies in the 1960s paying for R&D campuses, and more-or-less free in-state tuition ($400/year in the 1970s IIRC). The universities supplied a large number of well-qualified employees, big employers hired them, and some of them formed startups that became other big employers. Once the ball got rolling, it became self-sustaining.
So no, those other states do not have the same environment. One major, high-quality university supplemented by a couple smaller schools is not the same as three major high-quality universities supplemented by many smaller schools.
You'll note that there is not an equivalent of Silicon Valley near Los Angeles. Same state and even better weather. But it does not have the same university + R&D concentration that formed up North.
The Color of Crime, 2016 Revised Edition
Quote: "In 2013, a black was six times more likely than a non-black to commit murder, and 12 times more likely to murder someone of another race than to be murdered by someone of another race."
Another quote: "If New York City were all white, the murder rate would drop by 91 percent, the robbery rate by 81 percent, and the shootings rate by 97 percent."
Do black Americans commit more crime?
Quote: "Blacks were disproportionately likely to commit homicide and to be the victims. In 2008 the offending rate for blacks was seven times higher than for whites and the victimization rate was six times higher."
However, that web site is a TV station in Belfast Ireland.
There Are No Successful Black Nations.
The author of that article, Chigozie Obioma, is a black Nigerian.
Detroit bullet proof glass
Average annual income Haiti
Health Information for Travelers to Haiti
Fuck that. The quality of life in the Bay Area is much higher than Pittsburgh, Houston, Austin or anywhere in the US. The only way to get better quality of life is to move out of the country, which is what I did 20 years ago when I moved to the Netherlands and then Norway.
And we're glad you did.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.