Ask Slashdot: What Would Happen If Everything On the Internet Was DRM Protected?
dryriver writes: The whole Digital Rights Management (DRM) train started with music and films, spread horribly to computer and console games (Steam, Origin), turned a lot of computer software you could once buy-and-use into DRM-locked Software As A Service or Cloud Computing products (Adobe, Autodesk, MS Office 365 for example) that are impossible to use without an active Internet connection and account registration on a cloud service somewhere. Recently the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) appears to have paved the way for DRM to find its way into the world of Internet content in various forms as well. Here's the question: What would happen to the Internet as we know it if just about everything on a website -- text, images, audio, video, scripts, games, PDF documents, downloadable files and data, you name it -- had DRM protection and DRM usage-limitations hooked into it by default?
Imagine trying to save a JPEG image you see on a website to your harddisk, and not only does every single one of your web browsers refuse the request, but your OS's screen-capture function won't let you take a snapshot of that JPEG image either. Imagine trying to copy-and-paste some text from a news article somewhere into a Slashdot submission box, and having browser DRM tell you 'Sorry! The author, copyright holder or publisher of this text does not allow it to be quoted or re-published anywhere other than where it was originally published!'. And then there is the (micro-)payments aspect of DRM. What if the DRM-fest that the future Internet may become 5 to 10 years from now requires you to make payments to a copyright holder for quoting, excerpting or re-publishing anything of theirs on your own webpage? Lets say for example that you found some cool behind-the-scenes-video of how Spiderman 8 was filmed, and you want to put that on your Internet blog. Except that this video is DRM'd, and requires you to pay 0.1 Cent each time someone watches the video on your blog. Or you want to use a short excerpt from a new scifi book on your blog, and the same thing happens -- you need to pay to re-publish even 4 paragraphs of the book. What then?
Imagine trying to save a JPEG image you see on a website to your harddisk, and not only does every single one of your web browsers refuse the request, but your OS's screen-capture function won't let you take a snapshot of that JPEG image either. Imagine trying to copy-and-paste some text from a news article somewhere into a Slashdot submission box, and having browser DRM tell you 'Sorry! The author, copyright holder or publisher of this text does not allow it to be quoted or re-published anywhere other than where it was originally published!'. And then there is the (micro-)payments aspect of DRM. What if the DRM-fest that the future Internet may become 5 to 10 years from now requires you to make payments to a copyright holder for quoting, excerpting or re-publishing anything of theirs on your own webpage? Lets say for example that you found some cool behind-the-scenes-video of how Spiderman 8 was filmed, and you want to put that on your Internet blog. Except that this video is DRM'd, and requires you to pay 0.1 Cent each time someone watches the video on your blog. Or you want to use a short excerpt from a new scifi book on your blog, and the same thing happens -- you need to pay to re-publish even 4 paragraphs of the book. What then?
That would be my first thought.
what if? ReallyMakesUThink!
seriously, who cares.
The internet could die for all I care. I still have slightly more than a metric ton of books I havenâ(TM)t read yet. Those are few million pages.
>> What Would Happen If Everything On the Internet Was DRM Protected?
What if all men were made of straw?
When my daughter was about 5 years old she asked me "What would happen if a monster ate the whole world?".
This Ask Slashdot question makes about as much sense as my daughter's.
The free market would find a solution to DRM'ed jpegs.
Just as it solved the problem of DRM-loaded games. People are willing to live with DRM if it means they can download the games they "own" on any of their computers any number of years later.
I take it Dryriver doesn't remember Starforce or code wheels or dongles. DRM has been a thing for decades before it was used on music/films.
More importantly, there will always be exceptions to the movement towards SaaS-everything/clouds. They won't be cheap or as "convenient", but they will exist as long as there is a market for them.
Everything would be a lot less popular.
The internet itself would be less popular.
People are already constantly annoyed and just walking away, make it worse and you just get less people online.
The whole idea of websites not owned by corporations would disappear. Social media wouldn't even work, as everything would be so delayed by registering and applying DRM it would be out of date on posting.
screen-capture blocking = ADA lawsuit
A new Internet that wasn't DRM protected would be born. This would happen because of the financial incentives. Remember when music used to be locked down before everyone started selling MP3 fiiles ?
Twice half its length.
they'll require a backdoor to everything.
It's how the state/corporate machine intends to take control of this Internet thingy and regain control of how citizens are informed and communicate. It's now a what-if question, but a when question.
I would make my own Internet. I would not be alone.
We would have the DRinternet and the FRinternet.
It would be good. You would know that anything on FRinternet is free from DRM.
So, the whole of wikipedia would be there for a start.
Anyone who wanted to be on FRinternet would have to let go of any DRM.
I would ensure that the domain services are separate so that by design one cannot link to the DRinternet from the FRinternet.
Isn't it called TOR?
This comment was written with the intention to opt out of advertising.
Then people would stop using the Internet and everybody wins.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Yeah, I'm going there... what if every road required you to display your drivers license in the windshield to be scanned every time you go anywhere?
There are already many people, perhaps even the majority of people (?), who don't know how to save JPEG images. And even if they did know how to do it, they'd probably think that it's copyright infringement. "If you want to see it again, just go to the web page again," they will say.
Download as much as you can NOW. Music, TV-series, Movies. Stock up on HDD's (dirt cheap). You will never be sorry. And neither will your friends be...
Imagine that? We could eat candies and nuts.
I think most people forget that you post content too. Write a story, a good blog article, take a nice photograph. Wouldn't it be swell if you actually got paid for something that people make popular?
So let's take the recent pay-with-computer-cycles as a decent example of a future ubiquitous micropayments convenience. Download a jpeg? Pay by waiting through ten seconds of computer cycles. You'll survive with short wait times for things that you find interesting.
Of course, when thousands of others download your jpeg, you'll get the cycles in return.
That's a good thing, because the more times currency moves, the better the very same economy. Still-money isn't good for an economy, money-in-motion is a good economy.
The trouble with DRM today is that it over-complicates reasonable convenience. But if that complication were gone, then it simply becomes a standardized form of valuation.
It can be noted that physical sales have taken the same route, hundreds of years ago.
It was easier to just go into someone's yard, and eat the berries off of their trees. Imagine if every berry that you take required you to pay for it with the milk from your farm animals? Well, wait a minute, what if we make something and call it money, that we can trade for berries and for milk, so we don't need to carry around both milk and berries? And what if we make something called stores, and sell the berries in quantized packages, so it's not a per-berry compensation?
DRM is a modern problem. As such, we don't have a modern solution. The moment we devise a modern solution, DRM will become an old problem, just like everything else.
To sum up, the DRM problem is simply an issue of barter -- how can I trade value that I have, for value that I want. I want a digital file. I have this penguin. They simply aren't conveniently compatible -- because the web-site with the jpeg doesn't accept penguins in-trade. The web-site also doesn't accept cash, nor credit cards for simple jpeg rights, all because the mechanism of jpeg delivery isn't conveniently compatible with current mechanism for currency delivery.
That'll change. Give it time. Jpeg's weren't worth anything when they were low-res photos of cats, so we didn't care twenty years ago.
I've thought about that scenario, too. It'd just be way too easy for the gubment to ban Wifi, WiMax (already licensed anyway), and packet radio for purposes of building your own network. That way only the politician's handlers can decide who gets access to the-one-and-only-Internet. Don't you think they'd just cut off the DIY avenue pretty quick? I mean, that's almost as dangerous as pirate radio. We simply can't have people just, you know, saying whatever they want. You think there is some kind of universal law protecting free speech? What? What is this burst dependent you speak of? Oh...... first amendment?.. Yeah, we don't do that anymore.
Maybe I save $50 a month by getting off the internet.
BBSs rule the day. The internet of wifi botnet things replaces the open internet. Everyone has to roll their own browser on old linux distributions.
Since they insist I'm just an owner of a license, I'd sue them for the free replacement of the vinyl data device that they gave me to be able to listen to the 'Dark Side Of The Moon' in 1973 since it wasn't as permanent as they claim.
> The whole Digital Rights Management (DRM) train started with music and films
How can I take any of it seriously when they start with a statement like that? Computer games had DRM, (often based on looking up things in the manual) long before folks with dealing with digital music and video.
I'm okay with DRM products, as long as I can spend Digital Rights Money (DRM) on it.
Digital Rights Money lets me tell the product seller when and on what they are allowed to spend the money I gave them.
Oh, and it requires a connection to my server.
Oh, and if they haven't spent the money by the time I decide I no longer want to run the server, the money is now unspendable.
Yep. I'm totally okay with this DRM for DRM arrangement.
... and move to some alternative that would presumably pop up roughly 20 minutes into the internet going total DRM.
Coming to think of it that would probably be exactly what the world needs to finally move to some namecoin driven namecoin driven mesh network alternative to the intarweb.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Mozilla needs to bring back the power of XUL (extensions bypass DRM) into their browser and Linux needs to get rid of SystemD (a mechanism for DRM). Join the resistance, use XUL-forks of Firefox and SystemD free distros. Together we can fight DRM.
Imagine trying to copy-and-paste some text from a news article somewhere into a Slashdot submission box, and having browser DRM tell you 'Sorry! The author, copyright holder or publisher of this text does not allow it to be quoted or re-published anywhere other than where it was originally published!'.
Now imagine ... reading the text from that news article, one sentence at a time... and then typing it into a text editor. Good lord! People are using their brains as COPY BUFFERS!
Everyone line up for your mandatory lobotomies!
New protocols would route around the damage. The web is not the internet.
Think of it as "everything on home computers." If you take control of the home computers, you can DRM everything on the Internet. What would be the best way to do that? With walled-garden computing, of course. Remember that when the original iPhone launched, iOS didn't have a clipboard or download capability.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Forced DRM is the purpose of HTTPS everywhere. The entire purpose is to control who can publish what on the internet. Right now it's a "safety" thing, and "you can get your own certificate" but 3 companies have effective veto power on CAs (Apple, Microsoft and Google), and have demonstrated their willingness to use that power. After effectively banning unencrypted communications, all that is left is to tighten certificate control.
You've already lost, and you're cheering for the oligarchs.
If you're disliking DRM-loaded media, then there's obviously a market for DRM-free media (or the alternative, DRM-lite which comments if you violate the DRM but still allows the user to utilize the content.)
It may seem hard, but still possible.
Imaging me removing that site from my lost of bookmarks...
Or me creating my own news site that permits basic copy-paste, etc.
Actually, there's a much simpler way of handling this.
ISPs currently bill customers a fixed amount per month, and it would be "trivial" for them to include a copyright quota as part of the bill, similar to what university students paid for printing paper per month. Thus for $5/month, that 0.1 cent can allow the user to view said video, or allow downloading whatever.
Not to mention that those people creating those movies should technically have those free trailers and/or exerpts that encourage people to post them on the blog without having to pay some DRM fee. Then someone discovers that those independent bloggers are more willing to post advertisements for their new movie if there's no DRM costs.
DRM conceptually isn't bad, its just how stingy or how badly implemented it always is to lock you into some format/app.
Just look at the early 2k online experience of music buying with sony, once you had the file it could only be checked out then back in before putting it on another device :/
If you look up Project Xanadu by Ted Nelson is more or less what the article is describing, a highly hyperlinked internet with automatic royalties to content authors. Its not a bad thing if done well.
a drm internet would be mostly dead and empty
Spiderman 8? Well, aren't you the idealist?
Considering how frequently they just summarily reboot the Spiderman franchise, clearly the movie of which you speak will actually be identified as the fourth Spiderman 1... and it'll be a total Anime-styled CGI remake of the 2002 Tobey Maguire Spiderman, which means that it'll be an absolute hit everywhere except for the megalopolis of Japan -- where the locals will have finally outgrown such childish things in favor of the more refined and artistic animation styles of classic Simpsons episodes.
I would take a picture, and load it to Facebook with my DRM. For Facebook to show it to another user, or another user to open it, the browser would need to contact my PC for verification.
and, you know, it would take me until I die to read through my shelves again and the stacks in the library.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
It would be someone's utopia to have that. If you even think about my content, pay me for the right to even have the thought of my content. The content holder deserves payment for the use of their content. However, put a ball and chain around the end user by not making it an easy and seemless consumption, and you're ripe for the hackers of the world to circumvent it just because you said I can't. Think about the DRM'd Keurig brewers.
It's that way half the time now. You turn off Javascript and the internet is broken. You highlight some text and can barely hit CTRL C to copy it. Since a right click produces a specific menu or is disabled.
What is supposed to happen if I goto my internet cache files and find the image? will that then go away?
.
It is fairly simple, if the USA locks up all of its content with DRM and this trend follows into the unlikely smaller business market then outside forces which have no such impediment will continue their already meteoric rise to fame and infamy.
Currently whenever I see things like 'content not available in your country' I turn to what are commonly referred to as 'pirate' streaming websites. Why? Because we are genetically hardwired to exhaust as little energy as possible. This goes for sex, acclimation of wealth, food etc. That is why a lot of rich people order out a lot of the time, cooking takes energy and if you consider the trade off less you basically fore-go cooking. This is why apps like Tinder and Grinder make bank, etc.
DRM is fine if it is not an impediment, however I know from personal experience that when I installed some games they would place a starforce rootkit onto my operating system, other games would attempt to refuse to install because of things like cd-clone programmers also being installed. The madness and attempt to control were impediments to my ability to simply play the game. This impediment launched me into a 20 year usage of pirate websites which allowed me to fore-go having physical media, paying exorbitant prices, having my system infected with rootkits or the like, and not having to put up with nag-ware.
The same goes for television, the prices are high and the content is low. That is why I switched to utilizing streaming websites, the quality is high, the price is non-existent and it is able to be paused, stripped of commercials etc etc.
These companies have already been warned about as much as is humanly possible about the dangers of making their product a pain in the ass to deal with and they refuse to listen. Watching this all happen slowly across the years is amusing, any idiot could predict what will happen.
This will never happen. The folks behind DMCA would never allow "everything" to be protected by DRM - only their interests.
If "everything" had DRM that would include any data that I create. It might be interesting if there was a secure means of personally determining distribution, including copies, for every piece of content I place anywhere no matter what the size of the content (could DRM protection of passwords have a place?). It would be a huge adjustment and break a lot of things initially.
For example, a tweet couldn't be retweeted, or imaged and included in another as an image, without the author's consent. Facebook would have similar issues. Facebook's data distribution restraints could actually be enforced by the users.
If the DRM was designed as the world's biggest blockchain with full data tracking, automated auditing of whether a website has violated its privacy policy would become possible.
Your sci-fi writing prompt leaves out an important part: what would cause that to happen?
Nobody knows what would happen next, without knowing how all the computers got so broken in the first place. We can't write the next chapter of your story without really reading the last one.
I mean, the obvious answer is that people would fix their computers, by uninstalling whatever you put on there that implements the DRM. Unless your story is that all the install media were silently corrupted over the course of a few decades, so that nothing could boot anymore, then the obvious fixes wouldn't work, right? So if that happened, I guess people would either pay the ransom (assuming there is one), or they'd recreate computers from scratch (which would be a major pain in the ass, but do-able). Or perhaps your story is that a mystical force was responsible, and every time someone tried to fix their computer, let's say, it killed them. So you'd have humanity imprisoned, or no longer able to use computers. Or whatever direction it is, that you're trying to make the story go.
Imagine trying to copy-and-paste some text from a news article somewhere into a Slashdot submission box
So, you'll have to go old school on them and re-type what was in the article. Just like I had to do in high-school when copying text from a book...with a pen...and no friggin' auto-correct!
Now, GET OFF MY LAWN!
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
.. ad a lot of people would spend time duplicating the effort needed to un-drm things.
They only way to stop all this crap is to nuke them from orbit.
To effectively DRM screen shots would probably require strict prohibition on "side-loading" open source software, confining everyone to a strictly managed official "store". You can see the major OS players going that direction.
And you know, when everything is DRM'd, everything will cost money to have eyeballs on it. (Otherwise, what's the point?) And the problem with charging money for content is that the content owners are typically blinded by dollar signs and price their content out of market. And then complain that their business is failing. (It must be pirates.)
In no time at all, there won't be anything but pr0n. Which, come to think of it, is pretty much 70% of current traffic, so maybe things won't change that much.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
It wouldn't take long before "alternative" versions of browsers and window managers were created that ignored these DRM requirements. Once the data is on a machine, there is no sure way to keep it secure. The longer such measures were in place, the more popular these alternative tools would become. It is impossible to put the genie back in the bottle...
The internet will [Protected content, you need Slashdot Premium Plus membership to access this post]
Way back when the tin-foil crowd were Going on about the risks of "Trusted computing". At the time it seemed so far fetched.
Yet here we are today.
I'd be sure to have a button in my search engine and or brower that said "never list sites contain DRM" So you can choose between the 'open net' and the 'commercial net'.
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
DRM is a content destroyer in the long term. There should be a addition made to copyrite law that says any any use of DRM must be continually supported by the creator until such time as they completely unlock the media and make it public domain.
That means if you make a DRM encumbered DVD that 80 years from now you are required to continue to ensure equipment exists at a reasonable price so that the original repurchase of the content can still access it in the original format OR you are required to provide a free upgrade.
The problem is what happens when that bug in that old drm is fixed or that codex isn't supported anymore. Millions of dollars worth of products that were sold are now useless to the consumer. So the entities that created them must be held responsible for keeping what they sold usable.
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
Well, if everything has DRM, then everything that reads it has keys. So there will be a LOT of keys. Keys galore. And since every reader of DRM has the keys, it will be a key fest of DRM defeat. Remember, the premise of DRM is that you can grant possession of the keys without granting control of the keys. This is ultimately a folly, held up only by the inability of the possessor to do what the DRM system does to access said keys. There's a reason why DVD and Blu-Ray encryption doesn't work... it's the keys, stupid!
we would all win
That's what I did for their lobbying.
The same thing that happens when you let an industry take over hospital care.
" ... but your OS's screen-capture function won't let you take a snapshot of that JPEG image either. "
If you are using MS Windows or Apple's OS, you would be screwed. Linux and the BSD's might allow a way around it.
Adobe wouldn't be useless? I don't know - seems like a trick question. I have ZERO use for adobe's bug-ridden software, but they seem to be on the front lines for most music and video DRM.
When I see anything adobe in the html, I know to run away.
What if everything on the internet WASN'T DRM protected? Gee - I know, I could use the OS that I wanted to see the content that I wanted and would happily pay for it since it wouldn't locked up according to the whim of someone else.
I'm a photojournalist. I support user rights and fair use so my images are readily downloadable. When (not if) someone reproduces my work, often on FB, I just send an invoice - I never send a takedown notice. DRM my JPGs would prevent fair use and reduce my income.
My browsers would continue set to refuse DRM. My DVD, game, cable TV & PPV time would continue at 0.
All my contacts with companies would start with "your have DRMed your web, so now your have the expense of phone contact only. I already do that to some due to Flash based manuals and Flash only webs. Mostly I just send emails about Flash causing me to seek other sellers, other vendors.
The market for DRM defeat softwares would grow greatly!
My interest in mesh, VPN and FOSS based communications and FOSS hardware would continue to grow plus I would invest in development of same.
I would move from old Core 2 Thinkpads to new FOSS, FOSH laptops and spyphones.
...with blackjack, and hookers.
You know where this is going :)
What would Hhappen if everything on the Internet was DRM protected?
Minitel would have prevailed!
The same thing I do with idiotic companies that want me to sign a ridiculous NDA with no time limit every time I step into their place. I simply ignore them until they break.
I'd have to again drive across town to buy Infomagic CD-ROM boxed sets to get the new distro of Slackware.
I would rather pay micro payments than have my personal data sold to advertisers and data harvesting companies. Micro payments on the order of what advertisers pay to show me an ad.
Reference: Wikipedia article on Fair Use
So - there will not be an internet where DRM controls everything because, by the definition defined by the Supreme Court, it can not impede fair use. This of course only applies specifically to the United States of America. Your country may have different laws concerning this subject. (IANAL)
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
Since Links are also copyrightable, the links can be DRMed as well. This can prevent cutting and pasting links to content, or even knowing that they are. A hide bit can tell the browser to not let the user even see the link. Publishers can then decide if you can even see the link.
I know this might sound kind of off, but the DRM web is pushing us further into an ongoing dark age. While some attempts have been made to archive parts of the Internet, we are producing a d losing so much information nowadays that far future generations may know little about us. While future generations may be able to circumvent DRM similar to how science tists examine hieroglyphs, the difficulty of reproducing the content will eventually leave it to be lost forever.
I was , what , 12 ? When I found out my floppy disk original ultima 5 disk stopped working "please insert original". I had started a month before to play around with debug to learn about how to make a ball (actually an ascii O) bounce around a screen. So I went into debug and used it against ultima.com (yes it wasn't even an exe at that time we were still in the 64K segment model). After bypassing the int 3h trap (they were replacing it with a jump to avoid people using it to set a breakpoint) I found out there were about 30 bytes IIRC which were encrypted (started using a single byte key, XOR it against first byte, then add 3 to key, XOR agaisnt next byte etc...). In that XORed area I found out that they were making a strange disk call (can't recall what it was, trying to set it on a track which should not exists but was present on the disk or the contrary) repalced it with 90h / NOP / reencrypted it, exchanged the byte in debug.com write it et voila i could play my legally owned game.
;). It is actually what brought me to in the end land in development. And I doubt any 12 year old would be able to have the same chance or the same start today.
You never forget your first time
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
What would happen if everything on the internet was DRM infected - TIFIFY
This is why they decided to have DRM baked into browsers as a standard. I tried to warn you.
Forget about DRM of the content. If DRM of e.g., the rfc's (requests for comment; the 'standards' of the internet) had been enforced, the very structure of the internet would have been closed for every developer or hacker that would have wanted to experiment with it and add to it.
Paai
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Any other questions?
"No"
well, rather: "Nooooooo!"
Retard award for completely off-topic systemd whining.
Same way Slashdot paid for it's hosting and submission system.
As for the former, Slashdot is ad-supported. Wouldn't web advertising platforms also start using digital restrictions management for accounting, to ensure that advertisers pay publishers the appropriate amount for an ad impression of a given quality?
As for the latter, Slashdot is an aggregator; it doesn't have boots on the ground doing original reporting. Whose job would it be to do the original reporting?
Imaging a DRM with an infinite recursive loop causing an infinite amount of debt in order to pay for it!
Tracy Johnson
Old fashioned text games hosted below:
http://empire.openmpe.com/
BT
I'd take a picture of what I wanted to save with my phone. Problem solved. There will always be a workaround.
It seems to me things like royalties and micropayments for every time someone downloads something is just a poor excuse for someone to counterfeit and print nearly limitless money at the expense of the rest of us and our freedoms. Ultimately it would just be better to pay people for their time once, not worry about trying to get someone getting more money the more popular a piece of content becomes. This idea that someone should automatically get paid more because a piece of content is more popular doesn't really make sense from an economic and social justice perspective. That said, people who do work that gets more popular could end up getting paid a lot more because they could demand more money per hour for the time they spend making stuff.
...will understand all the stupidity of SaaS, clouds and DRM verification the very first day the war begins.