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'Big Brother' In India Requires Fingerprint Scans For Food, Phones, Finances (nytimes.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the always-connected dept.

The New York Times reports of the Indian government's intent to build an identification system of unprecedented scope. The country is reportedly "scanning the fingerprints, eyes and faces of its 1.3 billion residents (alternative source) and connecting the data to everything from welfare benefits to mobile phones." Here's an excerpt from the report: Civil libertarians are horrified, viewing the program, called Aadhaar, as Orwell's Big Brother brought to life. To the government, it's more like "big brother," a term of endearment used by many Indians to address a stranger when asking for help. For other countries, the technology could provide a model for how to track their residents. And for India's top court, the ID system presents unique legal issues that will define what the constitutional right to privacy means in the digital age. The government has made registration mandatory for hundreds of public services and many private ones, from taking school exams to opening bank accounts.

Technology has given governments around the world new tools to monitor their citizens. In China, the government is rolling out ways to use facial recognition and big data to track people, aiming to inject itself further into everyday life. Many countries, including Britain, deploy closed-circuit cameras to monitor their populations. But India's program is in a league of its own, both in the mass collection of biometric data and in the attempt to link it to everything -- traffic tickets, bank accounts, pensions, even meals for undernourished schoolchildren.

60 of 132 comments (clear)

  1. You probably don't want to think by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    about what India's ruling class does to maintain their status. Or what any country's ruling class does to maintain their status.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:You probably don't want to think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is probably to stop people from abusing the system.

      In the US we have food banks all over the place to help people.

      I know at least 4 different people that try to rope my wife into going into them and saying she has 4 kids. Just to get 'free food' on top of their existing EBT cards. This sort of 'crime' is wildly common unfortunately. One dude I knew had a job and makes payments on 2 cars (he is single and lives by himself). STILL does this.

      The food banks usually quickly go under due to lack of resources. People are abusing these systems that are designed and funded to help people. I will quote what one of them told me when I said "hey that food is for people who need it" "well I need it" "you need enough food for 6 people?" "well I run out" "then stop buying junk food with the thing and let me help you plan better, I have seen your fridge and cupboards" he wanted none of that. He is getting well over 500 bucks a month in just food aid.

      This is unfortunately why things turn into command and control government style systems. There are a bunch of people playing by the rules. Then a group who really do not give a shit just so long as they get theirs.

      These give away systems are ripe for abuse and the people who abuse them are well versed on doing so. It is why communistic systems fail into dictatorships and why capitalist systems fail into feudal systems. With communism/socialism it fails because the very greedy people who make up the system do not suddenly become un-greedy. They find ways to make your rules even more authoritarian to work around these people. In capitalistic systems they fail towards feudalism because of greed of the same nature. Both systems realize you can control other people through the use of capital (political or monetary) to buy rules to lock people into non freedom.

    2. Re:You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "You don't get people off welfare by giving them more welfare. You get people off welfare by assisting them in job placements, financial planning, drug rehabilitation, and educational endeavors."

      How about : You don't get people out of hospitals by giving them more hospital care. You get people out of hospital by assisting them in job placement, drug rehabilitation financial planning, and educational endeavors.

      i.e. financial assistance or hospital care doesn't exclude other forms of assistance, and vice versa.

    3. Re: You probably don't want to think by peragrin · · Score: 1

      I. Keene NH you have homeless people on the street panhanding in the dead of winter too.

      I live there too. And I hadn't seen some many homeless until I came to NH.

      You call it good? I call it ineffectual. Keene ccould use two to three more homeless shelters because the one can't keep up with demand.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    4. Re:You probably don't want to think by anegg · · Score: 1

      I don't know why the parent was marked down to -1. The poster has expressed his/her opinion of why the Indian government may want to establish a form of identification/authentication tied directly to individuals, and cited examples of potential fraud in the US system that by analogy are relevant.

      I have personally observed similar instances of potential fraud, and have had other instances related to me, so the poster's observations appear valid and relevant to me.

    5. Re: You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      No, my point was they're both nonsensical to the same degree.

      Like why would "assisting them in job placements, financial planning, drug rehabilitation, and educational endeavors" exclude "giving welfare".

    6. Re:You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "Slaves didn't have to pay for healthcare, housing, or food"

      Yes they did, maybe not with money but they still payed.

      "Whoever pays for life's essentials is your master"

      No, that doesn't follow.

      "Some of us prefer to not allow the government to steal from us to pay for its slaves"

      They don't.

    7. Re: You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      No. These are both examples of false equivilancies:

      "They're both living animals that metabolize chemical energy. There's no difference between a pet cat and a pet snail."

      "The Deepwater Horizon oil spill is no different from your neighbor dripping some oil on the ground when changing oil in his car."

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      ---

      I'm referring to a similarity in logical construction

      To get someone off welfare it isn't nonsensical to continue giving them welfare so they can get things like assistance in job placements, financial planning, drug rehabilitation, and educational endeavors -- so that they will be able to get off welfare.

      If someone is often in the hospital because they have problems with drugs, it makes more sense, to offer them both hospital care and support like drug rehabilitation, rather than offering them only one or the other, hospital care or drug rehabilitation.

    8. Re: You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      I used Like because I was only stating one of the ways the original assertion is faulty.

      Kind of like using 'for example', but it adds a level of sloppiness to the argument, which I found appropriate, as I'm still not clear on all that's involved.

    9. Re:You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      Not sure how you mean, please elaborate

    10. Re: You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course.

      But that is not what I'm saying. To simplify, I mean that it makes sense to give welfare and other forms of social support at the same time because then one can pay for housing and food while one receives the other support services.

    11. Re:You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      I'm not disagreeing but I'm not sure how that's relevant.

    12. Re: You probably don't want to think by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      My argument is that it isn't nonsense to support someone financially (for rent, food, etc.) and at the same time support them on other levels.

      We can try to make sure we understand each other's arguments and word use better. Reducing the signal to noise ratio in comments can help on that level.

      Your 'just free shit' and 'scumbag fraudsters' arguments are certainly worth debating but they're not what I have issue with here.

    13. Re: You probably don't want to think by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

      While there are people who just live off the FREE SHIT and don't actively get a job or try to get back on their feet, the vast majority are just people who have fallen on hard times. The fact the the system that supports giving out FREE SHIT has to be secured against the people abusing it by using invasive privacy techniques like biometric scans is not a fault of the system, it's a fault of the people abusing said system. Biometrics is invasive, and I don't like it. Come up with a better solution and you will have more money than you can count. In fact the real problem is that signing up for one government system to get FREE SHIT should not involve the sharing of that data with every other person on the planet. THAT IS THE PROBLEM!

      A case in point, they recently installed camera's in my neighbourhood to record the number plates of those entering and exiting it, in an attempt to bring down property crime. My wife was fine with the idea, I however have an issue that whomever now has access to that database of innocent and well intentioned data knows when my wife is alone at home, and I am off to work. Who has access to that data? How secure is it? It can also be used to track police and private security patrols, if it can be linked to my vehicle registration they can decide if my vehicle is worth being stolen, and if it's a make and model with a know security vulnerability they can use that as well. All without leaving their armchairs. When is your daughter alone at home? Think about that.

      So no, I don't like them collecting all this data for the simple reason that it's very very clear they cannot protect it. It CANNOT be protected, so fucking stop collecting it.

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
  2. Just slightly ahead of the curve. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We are getting it here in the west too. I live in Sweden and its getting increasingly difficult to communicate with government run services with out a "mobile ID" (which is made by a private firm and requires a newish smartphone BTW) even riding a bus requires a "smartphone" and you have to show a valid ID to ride a train.... Strangely you can still fly in Europe without showing an ID, its easier to get on a plane incognito than a local bus...

    1. Re:Just slightly ahead of the curve. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      There's more resistance in Europe than in the US. Ask the average American, and they'll say that privacy doesn't matter if you're not doing anything wrong. European countries and the EU have explicitly recognized privacy rights under law, whereas the US is stuck with the 4th Amendment, which only applies to police.

    2. Re:Just slightly ahead of the curve. by Megol · · Score: 1

      Stop lying.

      You want to communicate with government services? Use your phone - yes even a dumb phone or a land line would work. Or download some papers and send away. Or go to local branches of whatever you want to communicate with and ask for some assistance.

    3. Re:Just slightly ahead of the curve. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Europe has similar levels of free-speech protection as the US. Possibly greater, as you can't be fired at will in many countries if you voice an unpopular opinion. True, in some countries, you can be arrested or fined for Fascist speech, but that stands to reason. Fascism caused a lot of suffering in Europe, and wanting to bring those times back is pretty close to treason.

      Basically, it's a threat -- you're promoting government action to take away people's rights. The US equivalent would probably be something like burning a cross on the street in front of someone's home.

    4. Re:Just slightly ahead of the curve. by ISayWeOnlyToBePolite · · Score: 1

      We are getting it here in the west too. I live in Sweden and its getting increasingly difficult to communicate with government run services with out a "mobile ID" (which is made by a private firm and requires a newish smartphone BTW) even riding a bus requires a "smartphone" and you have to show a valid ID to ride a train.... Strangely you can still fly in Europe without showing an ID, its easier to get on a plane incognito than a local bus...

      You can still communicate with every government run service by oldschool phone, and the kind of mail you put a stamp on. Bank ID isn't just for mobiles, but you'd need a windows computer. Tickets for public transportation can be bought with cash. Afaik every airline in Europe demand that you have a valid ID to show upon request.

    5. Re:Just slightly ahead of the curve. by Bearhouse · · Score: 1

      Strangely you can still fly in Europe without showing an ID, its easier to get on a plane incognito than a local bus...

      It depends on where you are travelling to; even some Schengen-area countries have re-imposed ID checks - France, for example.

    6. Re:Just slightly ahead of the curve. by Kiuas · · Score: 2

      I live in Sweden and its getting increasingly difficult to communicate with government run services with out a "mobile ID"

      Finn here; we use e-banking credentials (all of which are required by law to use 2-step authentication) lo log in and identify to government services like filing taxes etc. There's a notable difference between requiring a trustworthy method for people to identify themselves in order to access their own personal information stored and handled by the government and requiring fingerprints and facial ID to buy food or taking an exam.

      I quite like the fact that I can handled my taxes (both personal and those of my startup) online using 2-step identification instead of a less secure method.

      Strangely you can still fly in Europe without showing an ID, its easier to get on a plane incognito than a local bus...

      So wait, have they stopped selling single-use tickets at kiosks and stores? Last time I was in Stockholm I happily rode the metro with complete anonymity using these. Again, just because a service is offered (you can buy mass transit tickets with the phone here as well) does not mean said service is mandatory. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

      Secondly: no you can't be on the plane incognito. Even though you won't have to show your ID necessarily, your name is still on the passenger manifest. Obviously you can book a flight under a false name, but this is actually not allowed. That is, if they do decide to check your ID (which they are allowed to do) and find that your ticket is booked under a different/false name you will not get on the flight.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
  3. Re:It's all IBM's FAULT! by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  4. upright citizens, saving food by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1

    scan 1.3 billion, edit the list, unlisted or nonlisted save some wasted food...
    make that 1.25 billion....

    start a war, or announce new taxes and onerous collection, listen for protests, edit the list,
    make that 1.24 billion....
    give extra food to supporters
    make that 1.31 billion....

    see how that works ?

  5. Well, at least ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... they haven't resorted to tracking their citizens when overseas. India's government are a bunch of pikers when it comes to real surveillance of their populace.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  6. That's great by pele · · Score: 1

    Unlike liberal liberals I see nothing wrong in this. In fact I think it's great.

    In switzerland you notify your local community office that you moved in and everyone gets notified of the change (including your bank). Same when you leave. Everyone who cares knows you left and your new place of abode.
    If you can do other things with it like make people pay their parking tickets or notify next of kin of some mishap then great.

    1. Re:That's great by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 3, Insightful

      India still has a caste system going nice and strong--several of the things that 'Big Brother' here is intended to do would work very, very well for ensuring people will have a very difficult time attempting to escape their preordained proper place (such as daring to want to have a job that wasn't dirty, dangerous and demeaning), punish those who try anyway, and probably also cull the population.

      Oh, and they've got problems like people being legally dead when they're not being deceased. Admittedly, this system will ensure that such errors are quickly fixed...by blocking the legally dead person from access to the basic necessities of life.

      Any system which makes it so the state can (intentionally or by accident) prevent you from being able to obtain basic necessities for yourself is not a good one, especially if it'd be possible to pretend your genocide is just a massive clerical error that merely happened to take you years to correct.

      RTFAing says that one of the benefits they're claiming is that this will fix India's endemic government corruption. The only way to get rid of corruption in the state is to ensure that corrupt officials are likely to be caught, that the penalty is significant, and that there is as little benefit to being corrupt as possible. (The more power they have, the better the odds need to be of a corrupt official being the guest of honor at a surprise necktie party.)

    2. Re: That's great by pele · · Score: 1

      It seems to me you confused yourself there. And that's exactly why you are an anonymous coward.
      So to recap - this is a good thing because it enables streamlining if tedious paperwork.

    3. Re: That's great by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      yeah, like most of the white western countries have their racism against anyone brown or black

      Not even close.

    4. Re:That's great by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      It's not that bad. Since it takes 2 days at police station to get VISA cleared for leaving the country legally, you need to anticipate 1-2 weeks at police station to be cleared of being legally dead. What is bad is that by paying money, you can make it in just a wee hours. People much more friendly than in the West though, generally.

      Try 19 years to get it cleared up, and the official only needing about a US$20 bribe to declare him legally dead in the first place.

    5. Re:That's great by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      Any system which makes it so the state can (intentionally or by accident) prevent you from being able to obtain basic necessities for yourself is not a good one, especially if it'd be possible to pretend your genocide is just a massive clerical error that merely happened to take you years to correct.

      Like pen and paper? Typewriters? News flash: genocide, repression, and caste systems, are not high tech affairs. See for example, every genocide repression caste system ever.

      Sorry, I assumed that it was reasonably obvious that 'any system' would include the low tech ones as well. But if you want to get into the nasty parts, it's relatively well-established that the world will ignore its agreement that genocides--strictly defined as government-run obviously-intentional slaughters of an entire people--are bad and should be stopped, and the only reason to bother much with providing a plausible excuse is to make it slightly less obvious that they don't actually care.

      High tech is useful here, because the main thing it does is make it unfortunately plausible--this is /., I should not need to help you with how quickly a PHB's moronic nephew can cause you to be having to hope that the data has been backed up very recently.

    6. Re: That's great by darth.hunterix · · Score: 1

      Just out of curiosity: when are you required to inform that office that you moved in? When you want to, or every time you move?

      For example, if I move, but for some reason I still want all mail to go old address (so nobody needs to know, as far as they are concern I'm still reachable there, I'm physically elsewhere) am I required by law to register under new location anyway? And if so, what is the punishment for disobedience?

      --
      What is best in life? Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.
    7. Re:That's great by NewYork · · Score: 1

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... should solve corruption in India

      --
      Casteism
  7. Re: Poor And Surveilled by pele · · Score: 1

    Elaborate?

  8. Modi and corruption by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

    That political windbag Modi claims it will root out corruption. Maybe. Corruption in India is simply a way to work around bad government. It might remove some corruption, but it won't fix the underlying problem of a useless government and corruption at the higher levels.

  9. Most western countries essentially have this by Kjella · · Score: 3, Informative

    All sorts of official activity here in Norway is linked to my "fødselsnummer", essentially my DOB + a 5-digit code to make it unique assigned at birth. Immigrants and others with business in Norway get a D-number which is the same only in a different number series. Can't open a bank account, can't pay taxes, can't own property, can't really do anything official without it. That was all well and good, but then the US started pushing for biometric passports and around here a country is the size of a US state so practically everybody has to have a passport. So since 2010 that all goes into a big database and since you have to renew them every ten years it's now pretty much the entire population. The only thing that prevent them from using it like in India is the law, all the data is already connected and linked.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Most western countries essentially have this by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The only thing that prevent them from using it like in India is the law, all the data is already connected and linked.

      I'm sure our best people will be happy to teach your law enforcement all about parallel construction. (I imagine we're probably better at it than most, because most of the places it's scarier to be than the USA don't bother justifying what they're doing.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Most western countries essentially have this by ProzacPatient · · Score: 1

      That sounds a lot like the Social Security Number that we have in the United States. Unfortunately there is nothing secure about it and wasn't intended to be a defacto password to your identity but everyone uses it like that anyway. Once someone has stolen your social security number they can pretty much take over your life.

  10. Re:Fuck India by Memnos · · Score: 2

    Umm.. you realize that's probably not necessary. They're obviously already doing a lot of fucking just amongst themselves.

    --
    I don't trust atoms -- they make up stuff.
  11. how is it news? by jarkus4 · · Score: 2

    This system has been working for a long while. It had already went through massive data leaks in 2017

  12. Singapore has it, sweden has it... by Daneel+Olivaw+R.+ · · Score: 3, Informative

    In singapore it was called Nric/FIN, linked to tax, bank, mobile, all govt services and then I first came to sweden, I had restricted to my new swedish bank account among other things till I got "swedish id" card. It is used everywhere from new house search, new mobile number, authentication in any swedish service (not just govt services, include insurance/ investment / share market/ etc.) TBH, I find having this convenient so I do not have to register in multiple places. I understand the concern about hacks like equifax one. There is a solution for that Blockchain based stuff like "civic" (yes, you hate blockchain I get it) In india's case, it helps with reducing corruption already (no, you can't have oversight without data and some centralized way to identify what the whole population does), and authorizing myself with fingerprint in a bank is kinda convenient considering the fact the each of my signature is unique despite my best effort to duplicate. My point is, NYT tends to blow things out of proposition and whatever is happening in india has already been done in at least sg and sweden and I have not seen any outraged articles about that. My point is

  13. Undernourished Children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The meals for undernourished children do not reach the undernourished children. Biometric verification will ensure that the food was really fed to the child and not sold out for money. If you've got a tougher idea then please reply.

    1. Re:Undernourished Children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How would that work? 'All undernourished, line up and get a plate of food when you've passed the fingerprint scanner'?

      With corruption, it'll be 'All undernourished, line up for the fingerprint scanner'. Then they get a quarter plate of food, the rest being sold for profit. Or perhaps they organize it like a lottery, so a few of those scanned 'wins' some food. With stricter control, the kid gets his plate of food, but will have to 'donate' most of it around the corner if he don't want to be hit with that baseball bat.

      Biometric verification only ensures that some fingers got scanned - and hardly even that. Perhaps a few kids get employment in a fake finger factory. (Fake fingers crudely manufactured so the corrupt can scan a bunch of fakes before selling the provided food. No need to organize that show on the street then - more convenient.)

  14. Re: One step away by Bruha · · Score: 2

    Itâ(TM)s not the mark of the beast. Unless you consider our fingerprints and DNA the mark already.

  15. Press here to play by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    'Big Brother' In India Requires Fingerprint Scans For Food, Phones, Finances

    Wow. Foreign TV shows are weird.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  16. USA Prejudices by tekelymailcom · · Score: 1

    Fingerprint and photograph as part of your ID has been obligatory in my country for at least 70 years. And you need your ID to indentfy yourself for like.. everthing. I just can't see what's the big deal of making that digital. It looks pretty innevitable actually.

    1. Re:USA Prejudices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's because you're a sheep or a shill or both.
      This is the definition of evil. A government exists for the people. Not just the people who are "lawful citizens", but all the people within it's borders that it is privileged enough to serve. If it doesn't want to serve certain people, it should eject those people and simply cite the racism of the majority.

      Government exists because some things are easier to handle as a large group and thus it maintains a monopoly on violence and monopoly on justice. If you require people to register and document every single thing they do, then allow automated enforcement processing. The sheer number of laws and the fact that most people break at least 7 laws a day, will cause the courts to be inundated with petty criminals like people who fail to register every action, rather than people who have committed real crimes that would require investigation by authorities and prosecution by the justice system. You can't automate justice, but that's what they are trying to do.

      The net result here is that an underground will develop and eventually the people will band together, rebel and bring the government to heel. Look at the rise of cryptocurrencies as one solid example of this happening right now. No one wants to have to register every single transaction and frankly banks "derisk" people and deny them access to their money with no due process whatsoever and we aren't even at the level they are talking about in the article. So people started using crypto currency as a way of bypassing the restrictions at the bank. This despite the wild fluctuations in value that are the risk inherent in holding my assets on the blockchain. That risk of 25% or more daily fluctuation is still better than the near 100% chance the bank will close my account on a whim with no notice. After all, if I have hungry kids sitting at home in Iran, or Cuba, or Venezula, why shouldn't I be able send money to my family no matter where I'm working?

      Furthermore, biometrics are nothing more than a password that you can never change. It serves poorly because biometrics are based on "nearest matching". The larger the population, the higher the chance of a false positive. How would you like to go to the ATM and find your account drained with no possible way to get it back because the person ahead of you was a "close enough match" and the law assumes the technology is infallible instead of the truth, which is that these systems are built with the idea that it only has to be close enough. Even if you could build a biometric system with a 1 in a million rate of incorrect identification, in a population of 600 million people, there's 600 people who would be a perfect match for you.

      Yet that's exactly how these systems work. The very best biometric we have are fingerprints and the best fingerprint systems in the world have a false positive rate of only 0.0001%.
      Sounds awesome doesn't it?

      Yet in a world with 10 Billion people that's 100,000 people who could be a perfect match and that's just baysian statistics. In reality the birthday paradox means that one out of every 10,000 people will be a perfect match even with fingerprint scanning, that's if they did an FBI level, deep search on 30 or more markers. The truth is 99% of fingerprint scanners out there only take 10 markers and have a 0.1% false positive rate and that's what they have here.
      This means that 1 out of every 1000 "links" are going to be incorrectly attributed. That's 100,000,000 incorrect attributions out of every 10 billion attributions.

  17. The weird priorities of Indian governments by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Each new Indian government seems to obsessed with showing the rest of the world that India is an advanced, leading-edge country. And every new Indian government neglects doing anything much about the conditions of more than 600 million (and growing) Indian citizens who lack access to such basic services as running water, electricity and sanitation. Really strange, and unfair to those unfortunate Indians.

  18. Re: One step away by youngone · · Score: 1

    Have you actually read the Book of Revelation though?
    How anyone could take that drivel seriously is beyond me.

  19. Re:One step away by youngone · · Score: 1

    It sounds pretty bad, but it's India, so it won't work very well, and most people will pay a small bribe to avoid it in some way.

  20. Re: One step away by rossz · · Score: 1

    I have. And I want what that guy was smoking.

    --
    -- Will program for bandwidth
  21. So what should they do instead? by houghi · · Score: 1

    Fro what I can read, the 'food' part is free food that they get. I do not think it to be way to strange to see that people do not abuse the system. The scanning of the ID is done, as far as I can see, instead of having an ID card.

    In Belgium having an ID card is mandatory since at least WWII and perhaps longer. (Napoleon?). If you want to open a bank account, you will need to have an ID and if you open a credit (e.g. a bank account that you can go below 0 EUR) you will be registered at the National Bank.(No, not everybody can see it)
    If you want to buy a phone, you need to have an ID since the terrorist attack in Brussels. No more burner phones.
    If you want some sort of benefit, you will be registered in one form or another, so they will be able to see you do not get money or services you are not entitled to.

    In Belgium everybody from the age of 12 has an ID with a chip reader. That can be accessed by open source software eID. Look it up.

    I have absolutely no issues that if people receive benefits from the state (and that is what we are talking about) that there is some sort of verification that people do not abuse it.

    And how do I feel walking around with an ID that could be checked at random? Pretty safe. They asked me once for my ID at random. The next day I saw them asking somebody else who looks very, very similar as to how I looked, so it was clear they where looking for somebody.
    I am sure that was not just a shoplifter as it was the (then) rijkswacht (Federal Police) and not standard police. So if they did that once in all these years, I rather they do it than have a criminal walking around.

    That said, I do live in a country where we can complain about e.g. the police when they abuse their power and things will happen. We have reasonable privacy (soon even stricter). On the downside, we are communists and give people a way to live, even when they do not work. And if we work, we are forced to take holidays.

    It would amaze me that people can just walk in and ask food stamps in the US without proper identification, because if that is the case, why would people just ask for them once per month? I would ask for them even if I had a job. It is like handing out free money.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:So what should they do instead? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      If you want to open a bank account, you will need to have an ID ...
      ... if you open a credit ... you will be registered at the National Bank ...
      If you want to buy a phone, you need to have an ID ...

      ... if people receive benefits from the state (and that is what we are talking about) ...

      One who opens an account with a private bank does not "receive benefits from the state".

      One who purchases a phone from a private retailer, and receives wireless service from a private telecommunications provider, does not "receive benefits from the state".

      Requiring ID to prove that one qualifies for tax-subsidized welfare programs is one thing. Mandating state-issued ID for private services is an entirely different matter. (Nationalising banking and telecommunications services such that there is no private equivalent is, of course, much worse than merely requiring ID.)

      Moreover, this 'Big Brother' system goes far beyond a simple state-issued ID. Proving your identity is one thing, but this system is designed to collect huge amounts of very personal information—where you live, work, and shop, your bank accounts and lines of credit, your phone numbers and exam results—into a single database the government can troll through at will looking for "undesirables". Plus, of course, the inevitable hackers; given how much trouble powerful, self-interested, and reasonably competent entities have keeping their own critical data private, third-party data held by an unaccountable government bureaucracy doesn't stand a chance.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  22. Horrifying. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Horrifyingly wrong.
    Not a future I'd want any part of.
    I wish the Indian opponents of this the best of luck stopping it.

    1. Re:Horrifying. by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      not really, these people want to sponge off others, they have no right to complain of needing to be on file to combat fraud and double dipping. It's the price one pays to be a parasite

    2. Re:Horrifying. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Ah I see, 'one bad apple ruins the whole bushel', is that it? One person in 1,000,000 doesn't follow the rules, so everyone then gets to be treated like a convict?
      Oh and of course people who think like you, when this comes to your country, will be shocked and appalled when they're required to be subjected to it, because you somehow magically think you'll be exempted from it, like you're special or something. Well guess what? You'll be treated like a convict or an animal in a zoo like everyone else, and you'll be threatened with actual prison if you don't submit to it. Enjoy being under a microscope the rest of your life. Be sure to keep chanting "I've done nothing wrong therefore I have nothing to fear" to get yourself to sleep at night, knowing full well every single move you make from that point forward will be tracked, logged, and judged, because that's the world you'll be living in. That is why this needs to never happen in India, if it's 'successful' there then other countries will want to do it, too.

    3. Re:Horrifying. by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      What are you blathering about, this is for welfare recipients. I am one of the people who pays the bills. It's long overdue here, the fraud is rampant and much higher than your made-up stat you pulled out of your ass.

    4. Re:Horrifying. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      The country is reportedly "scanning the fingerprints, eyes and faces of its 1.3 billion residents (alternative source) and connecting the data to everything from welfare benefits to mobile phones."

      Try reading at least the headline before shooting your mouth off, idiot.

    5. Re:Horrifying. by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      those phone number are for part of receiving welfare benefits. There have been article here before about that including Facebook trying Indian system for user ID, but you have the attention span and intellectual capabilities of a gnat

    6. Re:Horrifying. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Idiot.. What part of "(all) 1.3 BILLION" do you not understand?

    7. Re:Horrifying. by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      the part where those who ACTUALLY are made to sign up are receiving government welfare. but you only read dumbed-down articles