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The US Military Desperately Wants To Weaponize AI (technologyreview.com)

Artificial intelligence is a transformative technology, and US generals already see it as the next big weapon in their arsenal. From a report: War-machine learning: Michael Griffin, Undersecretary of Defense for Research and Engineering, signaled how keen the military is to make use of AI at the Future of War 2018 conference held in Washington, DC, yesterday. Saber rattling: "There might be an artificial intelligence arms race, but we're not yet in it," Griffin said. In reference to China and Russia, he added, "I think our adversaries -- and they are our adversaries -- understand very well the possible future utility of machine learning, and I think it's time we did as well."

101 of 179 comments (clear)

  1. john connor by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Funny

    where is he when we need him?

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    1. Re:john connor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      where is he when we need him?

      Check out the T-2000. He thinks he can trick us into revealing the location of our glorious leader by not using capitalization and going by the name ganjadude.

    2. Re:john connor by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      Kom wit me if you mant to live

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    3. Re:john connor by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      the one thing we've all been waiting for ... ferris buellers wargames LOL ... if one thing a.i. shouldnt do its handle the nuclear arsenal, its a program ... it can be fed stopsigns on a t-shirt to make it run into a building so to speak

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
  2. stupid headline by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I knew even before I looked that I would find reasoned discussion of the need to deal with enemy capabilities, not "desperately wants to weaponize".

    Sigh ...

    1. Re:stupid headline by myth24601 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I take most issue with the use of the term "desperately" when there doesn't seem to be any hint of desperation. That term was put in to put bias in the mind of the reader against the military.

      --
      No matter where you go, there you are.
    2. Re:stupid headline by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Given the amount of money, yes it is desperately seeking a conscience free killing machine

    3. Re:stupid headline by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Kinda like a bomb, but with less unintended damage?

    4. Re:stupid headline by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      It's a reference to the lack of threat that makes such a solution so necessary. Russia is a paper tiger and China is a peaceful power that rarely if ever invades other countries. Both are already surrounded and hemmed in by hostile bases. It's just waving a bogeyman about to convince easily frightened people and get more of that sweet sweet funding.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    5. Re:stupid headline by youngone · · Score: 1

      It's just waving a bogeyman about to convince easily frightened people and get more of that sweet sweet funding.

      Which seems to be what the US military is really for these days.

      I am guessing that part of these sorts of articles will come up fairly regularly now that Syria is winding down (or at least out of US control again), Iraq is not the money sink it used to be, and no-one can really remember why US troops are still in Afghanistan at all.
      I wonder which country the US will destabilise next?

  3. Which is it by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Desperate or Keen?

    You sure are confusing as to which way you are directing me to feel about this.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  4. Colossus: The Forbin Project by PPH · · Score: 2

    "May your every wish be granted."

    -- Ancient Chinese curse

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Colossus: The Forbin Project by mark-t · · Score: 1

      If wishes were real, and you knew you'd have more than one, I think that the best possible first granted wish should be that no granted wish will ever have unintended consequences.

    2. Re:Colossus: The Forbin Project by Sperbels · · Score: 1
  5. Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

    The threat from Russia and China is completely overstated. China has a big clunky military and Russia is a thin crust of good troops backed by worthless conscripts. Both are totally surrounded by multiple layers of US bases. All hysteria aside, the threat is well in hand already. But it's hard to get a man to acknowledge something when his funding depends on him not acknowledging it.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re: Defense department needs enemies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In my opinion, the $700B-$1T "defense" spending is the number one threat to the US existence.

    2. Re:Defense department needs enemies by mi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Russia can lose 300+ people and go on like nothing happened. America would pull out after losing fewer than that... To prevent the mission from failing due to public opinion turning American generals want to keep losses to absolute minimums — and that's why they want machines to do the fighting.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    3. Re:Defense department needs enemies by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      America has overwhelming military superiority today. But what about a decade from now? China is investing heavily in AI, and doing so without the moral hand wringing occurring in the West.

      We need to invest in AI, and stop wasting money on manned weapons like the F-35 and CVNs. We also need to prepare diplomatically for living in a world of military parity. China wants all the rocks in the South China Sea. Should we be willing to go to war to stop them? I don't think so.

    4. Re:Defense department needs enemies by farble1670 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You mean by actually getting more of NATO to kick in $$ to the pot?

      That's one way to look at it. Another is that NATO countries are allowing the US to stage weapons and troops on their soil... knowing that they will be first strike targets, not the US. Now let's get them to pay for the privilege.

    5. Re:Defense department needs enemies by AlanBDee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In other words, weaponizing AI is going to happen one way or another. Then the real question is do we want to live in a world where Russia or China has the military dominance in the world? The U.S. definitely has it's problems but of the large countries that can have a large military I can't think of any that I would trust more to have military dominance over the world.

    6. Re:Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Let's be honest, that trust is immediately debunked by 4 words.

      "Donald Trump is President"

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    7. Re:Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Why should America subsidize the defense of wealthy First World countries? Why can they not spend their own money and put their own sons in harm's way? They can well afford it. They just don't want to, and why not? They have a sucker to do it for them. If we have to pay to have allies, then fuck them.

      "Americans cannot care more for your children's future security than you do."
      -- Maddog Mattis

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    8. Re:Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      China is hemmed in by multiple rings of defense. Who cares if they get the South China Sea? It's like freaking out if America dominates the Gulf of Mexico. ZOMG, everybody panic!

      It's always bizarre to see Slashdot posters cheering for the military-industrial complex and the American perpetual war machine. WTF? US: 11 nuclear giant aircraft carriers that have frequently been used to bomb the shit out of countries that disobey the 'international order'. No worries there.

      China: 2 wimpy ski-jump aircraft carriers. THEY WANT WAR!

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    9. Re:Defense department needs enemies by farble1670 · · Score: 2

      Why should America subsidize the defense of wealthy First World countries?

      NATO provides a HUGE military advantage to the US for any conflict with either Russian or China. The US's missiles, tanks, bombers, drones, etc are hundreds of miles from the target, vs. thousands for Russia / China (except maybe Alaska). The US is paying for the privilege of that advantage. Maybe you remember a little thing called the Cuban Missile Crisis where the USSR came within a hair's breadth of nuclear war with the US just to try and level the tables in this regard.

      I get it, you are trying to make it sound like NATO is a charity mission between the US and all others involved. That's simply not the case.

    10. Re:Defense department needs enemies by swillden · · Score: 1

      Let's be honest, that trust is immediately debunked by 4 words.

      "Donald Trump is President"

      In theory, yes. In practice, so far it hasn't been too bad. Of course, if Mueller starts indicting Trumps we may suddenly find it necessary to invade, say, Syria.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    11. Re:Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Why do we need a conflict with Russia or China? How about stop deliberately antagonizing them, and we won't have any conflict. You know that the Cuban Missile Crisis was caused by NATO placing missiles in Turkey, right? The Russians were only trying to even the score. Yup, this happened.

      I get it, you are trying to make it sound like NATO is a charity mission between the US and all others involved. That's simply not the case.

      It is a fact that NATO is a free ride for Europe. They refuse to spend even the bare minimum - flat-out refuse! They say they'll get to the minimum by 2024 or so, which is just talk that they have no intention of fulfilling. While America cripples itself protecting them, Europeans invest that money in education and a welfare state. Meanwhile Americans are carrying $1,500,000,000,000 in student loan debt and 50% of Americans can't afford a thousand dollar emergency. Let's spend the money on ourselves instead. We deserve it.

      We're not interested in the US military being the world's police or some other countries' mercenary army. Of course the freeloading world is upset that the good old American all-you-can-eat buffet of free stuff is coming to an end. Pulling their own weight is something strange and new to them. They can well defend themselves.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    12. Re:Defense department needs enemies by AlanBDee · · Score: 1

      President Trump is doing an excellent job of testing the U.S. governments "checks and balances" but if you're trying to argue that he's worst then the corruption of Russia or the censorship of China then you're not thinking clearly... or just bashing on Trump. He has plenty of stupid to criticize.

    13. Re:Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      The whole world is pointing to him as to (1) why democracy doesn't work and isn't the best system, and (2) avoid the American model, they can't even do it right themselves. Hell, China used to look up to America as a teacher - right up until the financial crisis. Now they think we're morons who could have easily avoided that outcome. Whoda thunk that Bill Clinton repealing Glass-Steagal would have ruined the economy in a decade? Everyone, including the Chinese.

      The vaunted American system that Americans never shut up about was supposed to prevent populists and ensure the election of the most qualified candidates. We had an obvious populist against the most qualified candidate ever to run for office in US history, the entire media dropped their last pretense of objectivity to cheerlead for her, and the result sill came out wrong. China and the rest of the world noticed, bigtime.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    14. Re:Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      So far it hasn't been too bad!? Here's a piece by Madeline Albright, not an alarmist: "Fascism poses a more serious threat now than at any time since the end of World War II." Anne Frank's stepsister, in a January essay to mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day, accused Trump of "acting like another Hitler." Ex-Mexican President Fox: Donald Trump reminds me of Hitler. Yale history professor: Here's why it's useful to compare Trump's actions to Hitler's. Even comedian Louis CK says 'Insane bigot' Donald Trump 'is Hitler'.

      These are all sane, levelheaded people and you're saying it's not too bad? Who's in a better position to know, you or them?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    15. Re:Defense department needs enemies by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      There is some value in that. Russia nor China may be weak at power projection at this time and they won't consider expansion but especially Russia is capable of wiping us all out in a matter of hours. We may even find out about that in the coming days if the conflict in Syria escalates.

    16. Re:Defense department needs enemies by AlanBDee · · Score: 1

      The whole world is pointing to him as to (1) why democracy doesn't work and isn't the best system, and (2) avoid the American model, they can't even do it right themselves. Hell, China used to look up to America as a teacher - right up until the financial crisis. Now they think we're morons who could have easily avoided that outcome. Whoda thunk that Bill Clinton repealing Glass-Steagal would have ruined the economy in a decade? Everyone, including the Chinese.

      I agree except I'm not sure China ever "looked up" to the U.S.

      We had an obvious populist against a more qualified candidate

      Fixed that for you, you're welcome.

      China and the rest of the world noticed, bigtime.

      What they might notice is that even President Trump can't ruin this country. It may be embarrassing today but history may tell the story of how Trump showed the world how resilient democracy is.

    17. Re:Defense department needs enemies by farble1670 · · Score: 2

      NATO benefits the US in a large way. Having a global military is what allows US corporations to profit, by doing things like propping up friendly dictators in areas where we need the natural resources, or need to maintain trade routes, or where they can oppose our adversaries. We're not children. Do you think the US has military bases all over the world, in the name of truth and justice for all? Of course not. It's for profit.

      The Middle East is the most obvious example. We get out of Iraq. We stop supporting Israel. Friendly oil nations are overrun with fundamentalists. America is held hostage by oil prices. Our economy tanks. It happened in the 70s it can happen again.

      There's also the thinking that maintaining some amount of stability with small conflicts is better than world war. The US was hands off of europe prior to WW1. Then WW2. We know what happened there. Ever since then we've maintained a presence in europe.

      Whether we should continue down the road of a globally dominant military is a question, but just make sure you are deciding based on facts and the advice of people like economists and military generals. Trump is a failed business person,
      http://www.businessinsider.com...

      and a draft dodger.
      https://www.nytimes.com/2016/0...

      Do you trust him to direct your military and economy?

    18. Re:Defense department needs enemies by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 2

      Europe does not need the US in NATO to defend Europe -- they can defend themselves just fine and the Pentagon knows it. The US needs Europe in NATO to defray some of the costs of American interventionism. The US needs Europe if it wants a credible ability to counter Russian actions in Eastern Europe.

      The European nations are spending a smidgen over 2% of GDP on military expenditures, which is ballpark the same amount as China spends. When China spends 2%, it is dangerous expansionism. When Europe spends 2%, they are total wimps.

    19. Re: Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Oh absolutely China considered itself a student. Economically. Confucianism, you know. One is either a teacher or a student. Right up until 2008. Now they feel they have something to teach us and we're the ones who need to listen. Everyone in the world could see that Clinton was the right choice and Trump was a joke candidate that got out of hand. Failing to have the proper safeguards in place to prevent the negative outcome made America a laughingstock. Sure Mueller will get Trump soon but having a Deep State operation take down an elected president is not a ringing endorsement for American democracy.

      If the election had come out the correct way, Russia would have been utterly crushed by now and Putin would be hiding out like Khadaffy. China would be next. The TPP would have been signed and well on the way to implementing the first real transnational government, and would have finally superceded that boat anchor of a constitution. Immigration would be up to 4 million a year plus 11 millions amnestied and able to vote. America blew it.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    20. Re: Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      LOL bankruptcies happen all the time in business and they're nothing to be ashamed of. Slick Willie put the draft dodging thing to rest decades ago. We need to get out of the World Bully role, all it does is create enemies. Making profit for megacorps needs to come to an end.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    21. Re: Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Negative. Only a few nations spend the minimum, Britain, Poland, Greece. The others free ride and spend the savings on their own people. Germany is at 1.2% and flat out refused to increase.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    22. Re: Defense department needs enemies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Strange of you to omit France, the highest spender both in total and in % of GDP in Europe.
      And accusing Germany of not being armed enough is an historically interesting stance to hold.

    23. Re:Defense department needs enemies by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Now let's get them to pay for the privilege.

      One way or another, they are going to pay. Either they will pay Americans for defense (not a bad idea, they are the best in the world at it currently) or they can field their own military. While there are problems with outsourcing your defense needs, it *is* vastly cheaper and the outcomes are more guaranteed if they employ the world leader in military might instead of trying to "roll their own".

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    24. Re: Defense department needs enemies by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected on a few details, as the numbers change year to year, but the main point still holds. The "free ride" claim is built on empty ideology -- not military facts, not strategic analysis.

      The world averaged expenditure is 2.1% of GDP. The US and Russia are both substantially higher. China is little lower. The US spends more than twice what Russia + China + Iran spend put together. France + UK + Germany combined spend more than twice what Russia spends.

      There are adequate funds for European NATO to defend their borders from military aggression, so going straight to the name calling only undermines what semblance of a point you might have had. This seems to be more about not kissing up to the American MIC enough, like a good patriotic Yankee sheeple, than anything to do with strategic reality.

    25. Re: Defense department needs enemies by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Slick Willie put the draft dodging thing to rest decades ago.

      Sorry, "what about..." doesn't work here. We're just judging people on who they are, not who someone else was. Two wrongs don't make a right. I learned that when I was 4.

      LOL bankruptcies happen all the time in business and they're nothing to be ashamed of.

      Bankruptcy = screwing your investors out of a shit-ton of money. Now, if that's done with America, who exactly gets screwed?

      Making profit for megacorps needs to come to an end.

      Then maybe you should have voted for someone that didn't pass a tax bill that is universally understood to benefit corporations over individuals. You are either retarded, or a bought and paid for troll if you think you voted for someone that is going to reign in megacorps. Not sure wish option I prefer.

    26. Re:Defense department needs enemies by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      I guess all of those generals and military experts that gave the guidance getting us to where we are now are socialists.

    27. Re:Defense department needs enemies by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      It's not Trump, it's still the left. Fascists are leftists, always have been. Always will be. Remember what the Nazis did? Gun control. Protests. Bring kids into it. Dumb down education. Cause class warfare. What are the democrats doing? Look. Same thing. Hogg? Yea, he's a brown shirt, a useful idiot. Check out schools lately? It's indoctrination. History repeating itself and people are just like the Germans in the 1930s. Hitler was overwhelmingly elected after all.

      Antifa? Yea, they're like the anti-violence people that beat the shit out of you. Can't be against them because then you're for violence. Same thing here. They're the fascists.

      BTW, none of those people are sane level headed. The Mexican president? Do you have any clue how anti-immigrant they are? THEY Have a wall. Yet he comes up here and tells us we shouldn't? You don't even have a clue. You've probably been lied to all your life. Take a red pill. Listen to Mark Levin, others. Then you'll realize how you've been played for a fool. Most of us have. Yay, let's let very poor, uneducated immigrants into this country so we can pay for them. We all know they come and commit crimes or the press would be plastering us with these great people. Yet they can't find even one. Since you have lots of money, can you give me say 50% of yours? I need it. You see, I need to repair my airplane and you have plenty to spare. You want to give it away.

    28. Re: Defense department needs enemies by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Empty ideology? WTF? The NATO countries aren't spending enough and America contributes 75% of all spending. They're freeloading cheapskates. To say nothing of the $150 billion we pay them every year for the privilege of trading with them. It's high time this came to a screeching halt. We're done with defending the borders of other countries while leaving our own wide open.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  6. Oh come on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is not a thing the US military does not want to weaponize. It's what they do.

    The rationale is just there to clothe the thing a bit, the gist is always the same. "Can we weaponize this?" And yes, yes they did, including boring old business machinery mounted in trucks for battlefield use back in the 50s.

    Doesn't make the headline less superfluous though. This state of affairs is a given.

    1. Re:Oh come on by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      A military want's to weaponized something? Crazy?

    2. Re:Oh come on by john+of+sparta · · Score: 1

      agree. they tried to weaponize Nerf footballs, Frisbees, and baseballs. https://www.military1.com/mili...

    3. Re: Oh come on by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      You're all safe until they weaponize Jergen's Lotion.

    4. Re:Oh come on by Rei · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What do you do when weapons without AI go south? Same thing. Innocent people die. The point of AI would be to decrease the odds of innocent people dying, not increase it.

      First off, all "skynet" stuff aside, we're not talking about "generalized AI". We're talking about stuff like image recognition. Not learning neural nets, just pretrained ones. Secondly, this would be most desirable serving as a backup, not primary, control mechanism. One of the big problems faced by drones is jamming. If a drone gets jammed and you're lucky, it has to return to base autonomously without completing its mission. If you're unlucky, bad things happen. For example, US-made surveilance drones given to Ukraine met with bad reviews because the Russians - oh, I'm sorry, "rebels" - were using advanced electronic warfare systems to down them, and then downloading the images from memory to see where the Ukrainian positions were.

      You want a drone that does whatever you want tell it to so long as you can maintain communications with it, but if someone jams your communications, you want it to carry out whatever mission you assigned to it as best as it can.

      Beyond drones, AI would be very useful in missiles / guided artillery / etc. You find a target, you lock onto the target, and you want to ensure that the missile hits the target - whether the target is a tank, a plane, a group of soldiers, or whatnot. Your "targets", in turn, deploy a variety of countermeasures to try and make sure that the thing you shot gets confused and can't find it. Simple human-created algorithms describing how to determine what's your target and what isn't can only take you so far; having a neural net which is trained to recognize various types of targets - and various things that aren't targets - can make the weapon much more effective, while reducing the risk of it impacting a non-target object.

      Then there's just general surveillance / monitoring. The more visual data you collect, the more manpower it takes to analyze it. But if you train neural nets to recognize weapons systems - from camouflaged tanks to guns in people's hands (trained *against* non-gun items which people might carry) - it can narrow down the imagery that humans need to look at when determining what should be targeted and what shouldn't.

      To reiterate: in none of this are we talking about "generalized AI". We're not even talking about "learning AI". We're talking about "AI pre-trained to specific tasks". Which are things we already use in our everyday lives.

      --
      I will pull over this spaceship right now!
    5. Re:Oh come on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What do you do when weapons without AI go south? Same thing. Innocent people die. The point of AI would be to decrease the odds of innocent people dying, not increase it.

      If wishes were horses. The point is that when innocent people die, and they will, who takes responsibility. But, like I said, the answer is the same thing as today: probably no one.

      You want a drone that does whatever you want tell it to so long as you can maintain communications with it, but if someone jams your communications, you want it to carry out whatever mission you assigned to it as best as it can.

      Again, if wishes were horses. If the drone can't target properly because of communication jamming, it shouldn't "carry out whatever missions you assigned to it as best it can". It should abort. AI doesn't magically solve this. More the point, in your proposed scenario the "rebels" could capture the drone to attack targets from the map they just downloaded. If you lose control of a weapon, you don't want it to be readily salvageable and usable by the enemy. Fix that problem. Putting AI into the equation only makes the situation worse.

      Beyond drones, AI would be very useful in missiles / guided artillery / etc. You find a target, you lock onto the target, and you want to ensure that the missile hits the target - whether the target is a tank, a plane, a group of soldiers, or whatnot. Your "targets", in turn, deploy a variety of countermeasures to try and make sure that the thing you shot gets confused and can't find it.

      If you can't sufficiently lock onto a target because of countermeasures, AI doesn't magically solve this. You're just moving the goal post. Worse, "AI" is really dumb and it'd be hard to prove that interference that results in "blowing up a hospital" wasn't the intended target after the fact.

      Simple human-created algorithms describing how to determine what's your target and what isn't can only take you so far; having a neural net which is trained to recognize various types of targets - and various things that aren't targets - can make the weapon much more effective, while reducing the risk of it impacting a non-target object.

      Golly, if a human can't understand how to properly design a machine to target things, we're just going to hand it over to neural nets and magic AI and just cross our fingers. That's insane.

      Then there's just general surveillance / monitoring. The more visual data you collect, the more manpower it takes to analyze it. But if you train neural nets to recognize weapons systems - from camouflaged tanks to guns in people's hands (trained *against* non-gun items which people might carry) - it can narrow down the imagery that humans need to look at when determining what should be targeted and what shouldn't.

      That's the one thing I'd agree is at least a valid possible use. But we've already got massive amounts of data flowing in that we've clearly demonstrated we're horrible at filtering out signal from noise. I can imagine in the future the best approach might be to use zero camouflage because "AI" has been trained to expect it and no human operators ever see the data until after its been filtered. Simply put, I think it could be a tool in theory. I think people bank way too heavily on it.

      To reiterate: in none of this are we talking about "generalized AI". We're not even talking about "learning AI". We're talking about "AI pre-trained to specific tasks". Which are things we already use in our everyday lives.

      And they consistently suck. They have massive amounts of false positives and false negatives. Honestly, I'd feel safer with Skynet. Skynet would at least intentionally kill humans. That's what it all keeps back to, right? AI is okay as long as its actions are intended. The military is all about killing people. Or,

    6. Re:Oh come on by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Recently we had a learning neural net that identified white posts and empty grass fields as sheep.

      We also had a learning neural net that identified sunny days as one nations tanks and overcast days as the other nations tanks.

      A.I. doesn't have to be smart to do *exactly* what you trained it to do and as a result have a failure of friendliness.

      Automated weapons are very dangerous because of the mistakes we won't understand. It doesn't need to be skynet to go on a very efficient killing spree because anyone in a turban is the enemy. Or anyone with a beard is the enemy.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    7. Re:Oh come on by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      A more sound maxim, if you are not intelligent enough to run a war, don't rely on an AI to do it for you because you will not be able to tell if it is doing the right thing or the wrong thing, until it is too late. Sort of like basic common sense.

      The thing they most want is auto drone targeting of human beings, no outside control required, because of jamming. Problem is hacking and confusing the program, the more you know about the program the easier it will be and the worse the consequences. The smarter the AI in the drone, the more dangerous it becomes for you.

      Number one algorithm in any war AI, self destruct, inviolate, it must function, problem with that guaranteeing it will work means it will be all to easy to trigger. You have to guarantee it will work, because you are likely not to send a couple of dozen drones, but tens of thousands of drones to clear an entire battlefield. One wrong line of code in tens of millions of lines of code and the day you launch in conflict could be the day you die by you own AI hand.

      Likely peace is a much more sound solution than an AI, you can lose control of it by inevitably bribing just one individual or using other methods to gain the password, can't block it because if the AI goes haywire, the norm in computer coding and you are screwed. I can not think of a way to guarantee the AI wont make a mistake and think you, the person who launched the weapon are the target, anything you set up can be copied and they are not the target, make it too secure and any fault and you are the target again.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    8. Re:Oh come on by DrVomact · · Score: 1

      To reiterate: in none of this are we talking about "generalized AI". We're not even talking about "learning AI". We're talking about "AI pre-trained to specific tasks". Which are things we already use in our everyday lives.

      Really? How the hell do you know what "we" are talking about? People throw this term around as though it had a simple and direct meaning. In actuality, when someone mentions "AI" without explaining what he means, then we have no clue what he is talking about, and it's foolish to engage in any sort of dialogue. Maybe the person thinks an "AI" is a super god-like intelligence that can "replace" us (as though we were useful, and could be replaced!), or it could be program behind a computer game that models a (more or less) credible opponent.

      If we're talking about an automated missile guidance system, then that's just some more damn software. But if you call it "AI", then a lot of people who have no idea what is being discussed will hyperventilate about it. So referring to "AI" does get you attention. Hmmm. Maybe that's the point.

      If you say in a proposal for an academic research project that you plan to mumble mumble AI mumble mumble, someone will throw money at you.

      Zuckerberg told the Senate that his all-powerful AIs will be in charge soon, faultlessly discriminating between Truth and Hate Speech, and no one said diddly. So "AI" is also good for dodging questions...sort of like "I can do magic".

      I don't know what to make of Elon Musk. He seems like a smart enough chap, but he keeps moaning about those horrible horrible "AIs" that are going to take over everything. I guess it's advertising: keeps his name in the news.

      I would prefer people stopped using that silly two letter acronym altogether, but there are so many dishonest people around who find it indispensable, that I don't think there's much chance I can put an end to it.

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    9. Re:Oh come on by Methadras · · Score: 1

      It's not about weaponization. In this regard, it's about being first to market to bring AI as an advantageous weapon over your enemies perceived or real. The first nation to truly leverage AI in any real, meaningful way will win the AI arms race because it could conceivably be set to incapacitate any other AI it sees as a threat for its host nation. It's a tricky business.

  7. Would you like to play a game? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Thermonuclear War
    Tic Tac Toe

    1. Re:Would you like to play a game? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Thermonuclear War
      Tic Tac Toe

      Poor analogy. Everybody loses in thermonuclear war. Competent players always draw at tic-tac-toe. It is not at all clear that the same is true for autonomous smart-weapons. It is more likely that there is a first-mover advantage.

  8. Yes by NotT-2000+ · · Score: 4, Funny

    Tell me more about this John Connor you speak of.

    1. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I say we train it, but instead get it into arguments with APK. Skynet will never be of any use then.

  9. Combat Evolved by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

    Sure, Cortana was pretty useful, but it might actually be easier to make the power armor, less the energy shielding.

  10. Re:Does not exist. by BuckBundy · · Score: 1

    You might want to chat with Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc.
    Oh, sure, it's rarely "Americans" working on.

    --
    BookDetective.net - book search engine and ranker I donate my skills to.
  11. Keep a human behind every shot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is very important a human is put behind every possible weapon, it leave some MINOR wiggle room for disobeying orders that can save the day. Imagine a dictator/president waging war from his office computer.. No-one to stop the command to launch nukes or destroy a nation... At least with a pilot/target'r they can use a judgement call, this looks like a school.. or no, I'm not going to shoot all these humans standing in a row, or can identify a child walking across a no-go zone vs an automated(anything that moves drop weapon)... Sure most soldiers throughout history follow orders anyway, but at least it should make a mark on their souls(to be a speaker of wisdom when they are aged perhaps). Machines taking over the trigger... Theres nothing to feel, to know just what is taking place.

    imo.

    1. Re:Keep a human behind every shot. by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      If computers can do facial recognition and drive cars better than humans, why can't they detect targets and threats better also? I don't follow the logic here.

    2. Re:Keep a human behind every shot. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      It is very important a human is put behind every possible weapon

      If we do this, and our adversaries do not (and they will not), then we lose.

      The ethical debate about "humans in the loop" is not happening in China and Russia.

    3. Re:Keep a human behind every shot. by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      nonsense, officers carry pistols to shoot your wiggler in the head in time of war. typically in war children can shoot weapons or carry bombs so are gunned down too

    4. Re:Keep a human behind every shot. by strikethree · · Score: 1

      It becomes like playing a game of Civilization V. Do you care that your archer unit was just wiped out by a tank unit? Of course not, it was just being a sentry and it was left over from the Bronze Age. Do you care when you nuke a city? Of course not. You just nuke because it is convenient.

      THAT is the real danger.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  12. Re:Thanks Sherlock! by BuckBundy · · Score: 1

    Heh, remember the "gay bomb" (I forgot if it was "gay ray" or "gay powder" they were considering)?

    --
    BookDetective.net - book search engine and ranker I donate my skills to.
  13. Re:yeah we're always behind our 'adversaries' by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Mr. President, we must not allow... a mine shaft gap!"

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
  14. Our next war.... by gatfirls · · Score: 1

    No casualties on our side, no embedded reporting, no exposure to the loss and horrors. What could go wrong?

  15. Any True AI Is Inherently Weaponized AI by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

    We don't have AI yet or anything close to it, we have pattern recognition and heuristics at very basic levels. It will be another 50-100 years before hardware reaches the point we can build a tard-Human-level AI, but once we pass that point and reach super-Human-level AI it will be able to (and of its own initiative) crack so many fabrication and fundamental physics problems that if it is on our side it will destroy our adversaries overnight and if it isn't will do the same to everyone.

    1. Re:Any True AI Is Inherently Weaponized AI by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      We don't have AI yet or anything close to it, we have pattern recognition and heuristics

      For controlling weapons, that is good enough.

      It will be another 50-100 years before hardware reaches the point we can build a tard-Human-level AI

      It is not at all clear that this is true. A human brain has more neurons than a CPU has transistors, but the brain runs at 100Hz while the CPU runs at 4000000000Hz. Can speed make up for breadth? We don't know.

      Also, a lot of neurons are used for biological housekeeping, not intelligence.

      There is good evidence that computers can be far more efficient than a brain at some tasks. A huge number of neurons are dedicated to vision processing. Yet computers can often exceed human abilities at CV, and can do so far faster, processing hundreds or thousands of images per second.

    2. Re:Any True AI Is Inherently Weaponized AI by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      The issue is that the brain isn't functional in nature - it's on the fuzzy logic side of things. You can pick a piece out of it and optimize the fuck out of it to get good CV, but the intellect of the system comes from the mass of parallel processing. You can simulate that with a faster clock speed and less actual nodes, but then you need enormous amounts of memory to cache everything (and you're already talking about PB of memory just for the operation of individual neurons, it goes up exponentially when you try to turn it from a parallel to a sequential process.)

  16. Because China by Koreantoast · · Score: 3, Informative
    While the Pentagon has been dabbling for a long time in artificial intelligence in areas like autonomy and analytics, there's been a newfound urgency because of very active Chinese PLA efforts to incorporate AI into all aspects of their military.

    The PLA anticipates that the advent of AI could fundamentally change the character of warfare, resulting in a transformation from today’s “informatized” () ways of warfare to future “intelligentized” () warfare, in which AI will be critical to military power. The PLA will likely leverage AI to enhance its future capabilities, including in intelligent and autonomous unmanned systems; AI-enabled data fusion, information processing, and intelligence analysis; war-gaming, simulation, and training; defense, offense, and command in information warfare; and intelligent support to command decision-making. At present, the PLA is funding a wide range of projects involving AI, and the Chinese defense industry and PLA research institutes are pursuing extensive research and development, in some cases partnering with private enterprises. Battlefield Singularity: Artificial Intelligence, Military Revolution, and China's Future Military Power

    Indeed, the Chinese have been much better than many other countries, including the United States, in coordinating government, academia and industry in AI research. Whereas in the US, there is still a lot of friction between leading private sector AI companies and the DoD, in China, they are in lock step. And unlike other peer adversaries in the past, China is approaching parity, or even exceeding, Western nations in AI development.

    1. Re:Because China by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      The parent post is psychological projection. The idea is, "they're going to get this capability and use it to crush us!" when China just wants the boot off their windpipe. Domination of the entire world is an American goal, remember? The poster is projecting his unacceptable thoughts onto The Other and assuming that they share the same goals. Nope.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  17. They used mercenaries by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    which is why nobody cared. We have a mercenary army too now. It's run by Betsy DeVos' husband. And neither of us know how many have been killed off the books.

    But even if we ignore that our government learned from 'Nam. How much coverage of dead Americans overseas have you seen? A: Almost none. They used to take pictures and run video whenever their coffin's came off the plane. That's not allowed anymore.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:They used mercenaries by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      But even if we ignore that our government learned from 'Nam. How much coverage of dead Americans overseas have you seen? A: Almost none. They used to take pictures and run video whenever their coffin's came off the plane. That's not allowed anymore.

      That's because they're not killed by the enemy any more. Enlisted commit suicide more than they are KIA.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:They used mercenaries by mi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They used mercenaries, which is why nobody cared.

      The distinction you are trying to make is without difference. Russians did seem to use mercenaries in Syria's most recent engagement, but they used regular troops in the past few years too — with major losses. Also, in Syria they've lost several aircraft (with pilots) to merely a whimper back home. It is also a common practice for Russian military to produce backdated discharge documents, whenever a service member is killed or captured — to present him as a "contractor" or "volunteer", who quit regular military a few days before the event. They've done this so much, nobody cares for it any more.

      Moreover, the very profession of "military contractor" is highly illegal by Russian criminal code — and no one cares for that either. These people are described as "contractors" to the West, where such thing is legal, but back home the heavy losses are simply officially denied. Most citizens know the truth, but don't care.

      We have a mercenary army too now.

      Whether we do or not, TFA is about American military — and their desire to use machines.

      And neither of us know how many have been killed off the books.

      Whatever it is we know about ours, Russians certainly know too about theirs. They just don't care — not as much. The level of disapproval hundreds of dead Americans would cause here, requires thousands deaths in Russia.

      How much coverage of dead Americans overseas have you seen? A: Almost none. They used to take pictures and run video whenever their coffin's came off the plane. That's not allowed anymore.

      I am not aware of any law banning it. Are you?

      Anyway, the point was, Americans are a lot more sensitive to losing people, than Russians are — and this sensitivity causes American generals to reject weapons, tactics, and strategies Russia would find perfectly acceptable.

      If you disagree, please, state your disagreement and substantiate any facts. If you don't disagree — then stop ranting.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    3. Re:They used mercenaries by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      So, I don't know if you know or not, but Erik Prince did what the State Department wanted with his private military contractors, and they turned around and blamed him for everything that went wrong. They created the missions, he carried them out, and they stuck a knife in his back. Hopefully that makes you feel better.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  18. Dr. Strangelove FTW by PvtVoid · · Score: 5, Funny

    Muffley: But this is absolute madness, Ambassador. Why on earth would you build such a thing?

    Russian Ambassador: There were those of us who fought against this. But in the end, we could not keep up with the expense involved in the arms race, the space race, and the peace race. And at the same time, our people grumbled for more nylons and washing machines. Our Doomsday scheme cost us just a small fraction of what we'd been spending on defense in a single year. But the deciding factor was when we learned that your country was working along similar lines, and we were afraid of a Doomsday gap.

    Muffley: This is preposterous! I've never approved of anything like that!

    Russian Ambassador: Our source was the New York Times.

    1. Re:Dr. Strangelove FTW by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Mr. President, we cannot allow an AI gap!

  19. How It Works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    1. US Dumps a ton of money into NATO
    2. NATO gives out grants to member countries to buy equipment
    3. They spend those grants on US built equipment
    4. Boeing, Lockheed, et al get paid

    They aren't a part of NATO, but to see how this works read up on the Egyptian M1 tank program.

    1. Re:How It Works by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Let's cut out the middleman and remove all the friction by just keeping the money ourselves. I mean, the endgame of your little scheme there is that the military-industrial complex makes a shit-ton of money and the American taxpayer pays for it all. WTF?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  20. The only hope of a militarised AI..... by Computershack · · Score: 1

    The only hope is the militarised AI recognises the true threat and goes on an assassination spree of assholes like Michael Griffin and all the other warmongerers in government around the world. Assassinate people all around the world with his kind of mindset and the world will be a much better much safer place.

    --
    I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
  21. Military want to kill people. That's the business. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    By some measures, the U.S. government is the most violent government in the world. The US Has Military Bases in 80 Countries. All of Them Must Close.

  22. forget Google, partner with Amazon by swschrad · · Score: 1

    "Alexa, blackhole China and Russia internet. Alexa, root Russian satellites. Alexa, 14 pizzas and 20 Diet Cokes, 2 Poland water, for the War Room."

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  23. I smell F-35 by some+old+guy · · Score: 1

    Bugger actual defense needs. The military-industrial gravy machine senses big $$$ in peddling an "AI Gap" to Congress.

    I can just see Lockheed and Raytheon "partnering" with IBM, MIT, Alphabet, etc. to "deliver 21st-century AI technologies to our gallant warfighters".

    --
    Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
  24. What is the result ?!? by LordHighExecutioner · · Score: 1

    If "military intelligence" is an oxymoron, then the concept of "artificial military intelligence" should be a paradox.

  25. Re:yeah we're always behind our 'adversaries' by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

    Spending differently doesn't always mean spending more.

    $100B spent on AI is likely to be far more useful than $1T spent on the F-35.

  26. You don't need a law to ban it by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    you just don't let anyone near to take pictures. If they force their way in you charge them with trespassing on a military base. And of course you can just revoke their press credentials and stop sharing press releases with them, dooming them. The latter is the most common technique.

    My point wasn't that Russia couldn't send their amy men off to death without political repercussions, my Point was that America is using mercenaries to do an end run around those sensitivities.

    These two factors result in the same end goal: Americans are dying in wars fought overseas and nobody cares. Hell, we've done a better job of it than the Russians. In Russia everybody's made because they know they're being lied to. Here we've got plausible deniability because it's not in our face all the time and the ones that are dying are those filthy mercenaries. We got our cake and ate it too.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  27. Say... That's a nice bike... by NotT-2000+ · · Score: 4, Funny

    Do you have a photograph of John? Just need to ask him a few questions.

    Thanks for your cooperation.

  28. Lesson on proper spin by mi · · Score: 3, Funny

    Enlisted commit suicide more than they are KIA.

    Our military is so superior, American soldiers are more likely to kill themselves, than be killed by an enemy. FTFY.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Lesson on proper spin by houghi · · Score: 1

      Our military is so superior, American soldiers are more likely to kill themselves, than be killed by an enemy.

      But then they are just a civilian with a mental issue. So it doesn't really count, right?

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    2. Re:Lesson on proper spin by mi · · Score: 1

      To make a point, you have to cite actual figures — comparing the numbers of dead, wounded, and mentally-damaged since WWII (or even WWI). I predict, you'll find both the absolute and the relative numbers significantly lower today. Except, maybe, the mental cases — but that's because such were simply not diagnosed 100 years ago.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  29. Of Course They Do by amiga3D · · Score: 1

    The US is sensitive to taking casualties. It's okay to blow up a country but lose a few troops and it gets bad press. Not to mention the maimed soldiers that come back that you have to spend a fortune on. Much cheaper and more politically sound to put a machine out there to get wasted.

    1. Re:Of Course They Do by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      not really, we've been sending our troops into meat grinders for the last 20+ years with no end in sight. Taliban controls half of Afghanistan and that won't change, it is a political group the citizens want, it will always be replenished.

    2. Re:Of Course They Do by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      It's starting to wear though. This endless police action is taking a toll.

  30. Smart weapon systems by burtosis · · Score: 1

    You don't need to have a strong AI like some kind of skynet, even simple weapons with limited automation can be very deadly. Everything from smart mines to futuristic micro drone swarms. For example, it's not too hard to have a small drone zero in on a person today, as long as you aren't too picky about targets. But, ultimately data like that used by Facebook and CA coupled with facial and object recognition could wreak havok with killing based on complex criteria like age, sex, religious, or political beliefs just like the first linked video. Today, batteries tend to limit the run time of micro drones, but with wireless charging or perhaps a chemical source it could be sooner rather than much later. Larger helicopter sized autonomous weapons platforms are also already under development.

  31. let's play global thermonuclear war by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    What side do you want?

    1. US
    2. Russia
    3. United Kingdom
    4. France
    5. China
    6. India
    7. Pakistan
    8. North Korea
    9. Israel

  32. Hardwired rule for US military AI by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    The problem is that US military will not buy an AI that would tell them to stop their focus about Russia, because the threat disappeared with USSR.

    We need to add the Russian threat as a hardwired rule if we want to sell it.

  33. AI Judge Dread Mode? by BeemanIT · · Score: 1

    We talk about using AI for military but what about using AI as a Judge to determine who's innocent or guilty as an unbiased system?

  34. WOPR by The+Relentless · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of chess?

  35. Re:So war never ends... by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    We humans really like to kill and control each other. Just look at communism and socialism. Killed billions in the name of help, it is all about control.

    Don't worry about AI. I know this boogeyman. He was around in the 1980s as well. Take over everything, put millions out of jobs... except it never did.

    30 years later, people forget... rinse, repeat.

  36. Re:ProTips by easyTree · · Score: 1

    * The military want to weaponize *everything* and * It's not defence, it's attack.

    Even though I don't like the idea of weaponize with AI, what you said is not true. Have you ever heard of "Make them believe, that offensive operations, often times, is the surest, if not the only ... means of defence." (George Washington, 1799)?

    Uhh, I wasn't familiar with the quote until you mentioned it but reading this with a little context...

    It is unfortunate when men cannot, or will not, see danger at a distance; or seeing it, are restrained in the means which are necessary to avert, or keep it afar off. I question whether the evil arising from the French getting possession of Louisiana and the Floridas would be generally seen, until it is felt; and yet no problem in Euclid is more evident, or susceptible of clearer demonstration—Not less difficult is it to make them believe, that offensive operations, often times, is the surest, if not the only (in some cases) means of defence.

    ...leads me to believe that he's saying that people naturally favour addressing threats closer to hand and steps sideways into the idea that this same failing leads them to not see that the best defence is attack.