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Uber Drivers Are Independent Contractors, Not Employees, Judge Rules (reuters.com)
Uber drivers are independent contractors, not full-time employees of the ride-hailing company, a federal judge in Philadelphia ruled in what is said to be the first classification of Uber drivers under federal law. Reuters reports: U.S. District Judge Michael Baylson on Wednesday said San Francisco-based Uber does not exert enough control over drivers for its limo service, UberBLACK, to be considered their employer under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act. The drivers work when they want to and are free to nap, run personal errands, or smoke cigarettes in between rides, Baylson said. Jeremy Abay, a lawyer for the plaintiffs, said he would appeal the ruling to the Philadelphia-based 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. The 3rd Circuit would be the first federal appeals court to consider whether Uber drivers are properly classified as independent contractors.
I look forward to the legal wrangling over what constitutes being an employee of a business and what constitutes work-for-hire contracting. The future of the permanent underclass "gig economy" is at stake.
Can they be switched to independent contractors too?
Instead of ride-sharing we'd have class-sharing. Teachers bid on showing up to work that day, lowest bidder gets the classroom.
Think of all the money we'd save in the short term, and a generation of shitty educated people we'd have in the long term. Shitty education makes for a reliable voter base with the right propaganda campaigns.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
The IRS has a complex definition of who is an employee vs who is an independent contractor. There is a form SS-8 - Determination of Worker Status for Purposes of Federal Employment Taxes and Income Tax Withholding with 47 detailed questions to determine precisely what the status of a worker is. This is important for tax purposes because the IRS expects the Social Security and Medicare taxes to be paid, at least in part, by the employer or else be paid by the independent contractor under the self employment rules. What if the court says that they're not employees but the IRS argues that they are and that Uber owes them back taxes?
Other countries with actual worker rights have been classifying them as regular employees for a taxi service....
It doesn't matter if Uber ultimately loses. They'll just make the minimum necessary changes so that they no longer have any employees. It's similar to how after the ACA was passed, some people suddenly found themselves working 29 hours per week because their employers didn't want full time employees and the additional requirements that entailed.
If you want to ensure that gig economy workers have the best wages and conditions, make sure that there are a large number of gig economy service providers competing with each other.
Let's say you didn't get the head start (college education) a modestly wealthy family could've afforded you... let's say over and above the hours the wages the job you are qualified to do provides, you can taxi the more fortunate to their destination in order to make your bills more closely resemble your income.
Are you hoping for government regulation that diminishes your ability to work yourself and your family into solvency and regular groceries?
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Or maybe the whole "gig economy" was just a fad that was not going to be sustainable for anybody---something that could tide you over in 2009 when you were laid off and couldn't find a new job in the "recovery," but nothing you would want to do as a career.
I think they are clearly employees, but if they are independent contractors, they then have the right to set their own prices for work. If Uber is making all its "contractors" charge the same fee, that's called price fixing and it's illegal.
"He took a duck in the face at 250 knots." -- William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
IANAL, but As a general rule of thumb, if a person is not allowed to subcontract the work, they are considered an employee... I am pretty sure subcontracting is not allowed... ergo - more rulings to come.
It comes down to your employers level of control. Uber gives you the work but that's about it. People may do it full time but that doesn't make you an employee and as much as you might want the benefits that are mandated for employees wanting something doesn't make it true. Think of it another way. When you take a job with a company, you are giving something else up, usually it's your ability to to set your schedule and work for someone else. You aren't forced to give anything up to work for Uber. You aren't "sticky". Compare this to a school teacher, who has to train and specialize. When they get a job they are committed to being a teacher and often there is only one school teacher employer in an area. They are both committed to that employer and in a very weak bargaining position as an individual. That's why we have labour laws protecting them and also allow them to form unions. (The balance of power is likely way to far in their favour now but that's another story).
since Reagan, so I'm not surprised. They've taken a top down approach to government, and bought it all.
Mark my words, everybody on this forum, you're next. They Uber rich (pun intended) are coming for your wages, your benefits, your retirement and your property. And why shouldn't they? You keep going to the polls and giving it to them.
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The law considers the following things:
Independence in investment in and choice of equipment etc. If the worker uses their own judgement to decide which equipment they want to use, and they buy their equipment, that may be an independent contractor. If the payer chooses and buys the equipment, it's likely an employee using it. In this cass, the employee chooses and buys their own car.
Permanence. Short-term gigs are often contracts. Projects that take more than a year to complete, where the worker is expected to be there long term, are likely employees. People doing Uber while between jobs, or to get some extra holiday cash, look like contractors.
Degree of control. Does the payer specify the outcome (fix my sink) or the exact process?
Financial risk. If the company guarantees exactly $x / hour, no more or less, that's probably an employee. If the worker can make more or less depending on how they choose to run their work, that's probably a contract.
Initiative and judgement. Is the worker following a script provided by the payer, or making their own plans and judgements? Can the Uber driver decide what area to work, based on which part of town they think will make the most money?
Ability to work for others, and actually working for others. Can Uber drivers also drive for Lyft? The plumber I hire to fix my sink also does similar work for other people, so he's a contractor. I have a limited non-compete clause with my employer, so I'm an employee.
I probably forgot one.
The IRS has extensive guidelines. The department of labor has similar ones, but not as extensive. The Supreme Court has enumerated broad considerations in certain cases.
Generally, the word "Independent" in "independent contractor" is important. Does the worker control how they do the work?
With Uber it seems to me people have two viewpoints on the whole thing. Uber advertises "make extra money in your free time". Many drivers see it as a full-time, long-term job.
It seems to me that while *some* people are able figure out the best hours and locations to work in order to do well with it long-term, for most people it's probably better as something you'd do while looking for another job, or only occasionally during surge pricing periods or whatever.
I can't say for sure what will happen with the gig economy, but I'm not convinced its a fad. People forget that the increases in productivity that we continue to see don't just mean a loss of jobs, but also a decrease in the cost of goods. I think what will really make the gig economy viable is when it becomes possible to cover living expenses when working 20 - 30 hours per week at your gig. Not because the gig is particularly well paying, but because it doesn't cost much to get by. I think that if a person were particularly frugal that may already be a possibility.
Some currently existing careers are going to go away (as they have throughout history) and not everyone is capable of retraining as a surgeon, engineer, or some other form of highly skilled labor that guarantees a career. I suspect that the jobs in a gig economy will change as well or that it may be the type of situation where you might have five different gigs at only four to six hours apiece.
Once again though, it doesn't ultimately matter. If Uber can drag this case out long enough who cares what restrictions the government tries to make regarding employees and contractors because in 10 years I wouldn't be surprised if Uber were running mostly or all self-driving cars.
A city council member here in Seattle studied the issue, and she said Uber drivers are employees and the rulers of Uber are criminals since they hate unions which is illegal in the US. The people running Uber are criminals. If Trump wasn't our ruler, they would be in prison. We are not a nation of laws since they walk free upon this Earth.
The drivers work when they want to and are free to nap, run personal errands, or smoke cigarettes in between rides, Baylson said.
I have flex timings, I can come and go as I please, constantly go off for doctor appointment or go home to wait for the proverbial cable guy. I can smoke if I want to between jobs breaks.
That makes me a contractor! I can float a LLC that will contract with my employer. Then I can control the income stream, call it "Carried interest". I can defer the income, deduct all sorts of expenses ....
Can I, can I, can I, please please please pretty please with a bow on top?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
What makes you say they're employees? They own their own tools, set their own hours, and can refuse jobs (within the bounds of federal, state and local non-discrimination laws). I don't know about the IRS, but for OSHA, those criteria make them clearly contractors.
IANAL
Obviously.
if a person is not allowed to subcontract the work, they are considered an employee...
This is nonsense. The IRS publishes a long list of criteria for determining whether a worker can be classified as a contractor. Subcontracting is one of those criteria, but no single factor is either necessary nor sufficient to make the determination.
There is no rule/law that contractors must be able to sub-contract.
There is also no rule/law that employees can't sub-contract.
Thanks for that.
the modern American left isn't about any of that. They're about sound economic policy, to wit:
a. Medicare for all.
b. End the wars.
c. College for all.
d. New New Deal.
e. Infrastructure spending.
f. Living Wage.
The right likes to find our crazies and give them megaphones. It's easy to do because the American right wing owns the media. Ask yourself how often you hear a serious discussion of left wing economic ideas on TV. You don't. Don't be fooled by the right wing media and their cheap identity politics.
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Though they got the outcome they want in this case, if I were running Uber I'd make a change in their business model to make it absolutely clear that drivers are contractors: Let drivers set their own prices. Uber uses an algorithm based on mileage and time to calculate the price, so let drivers set the parameters, and show potential riders a list of drivers with ETAs and prices, calculated according to the driver's preference.
No reasonable person is going to conclude that a driver who uses their own equipment, chooses their own hours and work location and sets their own prices is an employee. I'd argue that such a person isn't even a contractor, they're an independent business partner.
As a side benefit, this approach would address a big rider complaint about Uber: surge pricing. Surge pricing makes economic sense, and benefits riders by encouraging more drivers to be available during times of heavy demand, but it still seems artificial and subject to manipulation by Uber. Allowing drivers and riders to dynamically negotiate pricing would allow supply and demand to drive the price naturally. Uber could also track price distributions and notify drivers who are currently not working when prices rise, or when they're projected to rise, as I believe they do now with surge price times. Even if riders are unhappy with spiking prices, they'll blame drivers rather than Uber.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Btw, I mentioned the IRS has extensive guidelines. Some people mistakenly think that if you CALL a worker an independent contractor you can reduce tax payments and hassle. This is a major item the IRS watches for. Calling someone an independent contractor when they are not in fact independent is tax evasion. Every year the IRS levies billions of dollars in civil penalties for employment tax evasion, and refers cases for criminal prosecution. Business owners and executives go to prison.
Want to save some hassle? Which option is more hassle?:
a) Forwarding pay stubs to your accountant to do payroll taxes
b) Serving 24 months in federal prison
I suspect that there will be certain protections added for lower paid contractors. Similar to how you can't be salaried if you make less than a certain amount, contractors making less than a certain amount will get some level of protection.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
The "gig economy" is simply a process for acquiring on demand human resources to supplement automated services. That's not going anywhere. Most industries will go through a period of gig economy on their path to go fully automated.
You mean regulations that would see you making more money, with more benefits, with more rights against an employer that can let you go for any reason at any time?
How are people going to pay for housing at 20-30 hours a week? $30 an hour might cover a room if they can find one. Then there is the problem that the essential stuff is getting more expensive. Sure toys are getting cheaper but if you have no money left after buying the necessaries...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
with economic ones. On anything that really matters (the economy) the media is hard right. Especially CNN, MSNBC, NBC ABC CBS. Once in a blue moon the Post or Times gets to run some left wing economics, usually with a well known lefty guest editor. But even they don't do reports on stuff that matters.
And yes, right wing identity politics are a thing. They convince white men they have a "culture" instead of an economic future to defend. Antifa is a made up bit of nonsense sold to you so you'll forget about all those pesky economic issues and focus on an imaginary boogyman out to steal your rights. America is divided because the ruling class _wants_ us to be divided. Don't be fooled. Join the rest of your working class brothers and lets fix this.
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they fool white men into railing against a few loud and mean spirited feminists while they're laughing at you all the way to the bank. They're making fools of you and me. We trade our economic future for the promise of some nebulous cultural victory.
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That's an interesting idea. Sometimes there is only one driver nearby and as a customer the uncertainty would be a turn off. I like to be able to plan on using Uber. I would think the bidding would also be less desirable for drivers, who prefer some predictability (they already don't know how many people will be wanting rides, if they'll get much business). So I think Uber makes it better for both drivers and passengers by setting some predictable, standard pricing. I wonder if there is a way to get "the best of both worlds", giving drivers more control, while maintaining some predictability.
"Subcontracting is one of those criteria, but no single factor is either necessary nor sufficient to make the determination."
How many times in this thread are you going to write "X is one of those criteria, but..." before you get the fucking point that they are very clearly not independent contractors?
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
This is why sane countries have unions, not the corrupt ones either.
All kinds of odd things happened...
but for most companies 29 hours was too disruptive.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/fe...
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
don't like the rules, break them, use people, ruin lives ... just another soulless multinational corporation
So long as the "contractor" loophole exists companies are going to use it ---- what we need is some FLSA rules for contractors including:
Also, even if the IRS classifies it as an employee relationship for Tax Purposes; that does not mean it is true for FLSA purposes.
The Democrats are *NOT* for all the things you mentioned. They are just for a different kind of pork. Single payer pork for the insurance industry (which along with the entertainment industry enjoy the subsidization that D's often provide.)
Furthermore, outside of Ron Wyden, the democrats have been just as enthusiastic about pushing anti-privacy laws, crippling or abolishing encryption, etc as the Republicans. The only time they voice dissent is when they're making a play to regain the majority in the senate, or the presidency. Outside of that both parties are so collusive and an affront to the ideals of this nation that they need to be purged in fire, since thanks to their support of collusion between the law enforcement and judicial branches of government there is no longer any chance of enough of them being brought up on criminal charges to change the system from within. Purge them all and let the next election cycle sort the government out. Until then it is just the right hand washing the left and vice versa.
Bingo. The problem here is not that Uber drivers are considered self-employed contractors, it's that treating them as such removes a bunch of responsibilities from Uber. This hasn't mattered in the past, because self employment was traditionally something that only people in skilled trades or professions did. We recently hired a self-employed carpenter. He set his own price and I think he makes a pretty good living at it because his skills are in demand. The balance of power in negotiations between payer and payee is tilted towards the contractor there, because his skills are in sufficient demand that he can turn down work. I was self employed for about five years working for companies across the world and I frequently turned down work that didn't sound fun (or put my price up so much that either they client decided to go with someone else or I got to take a few months off after doing the work for them).
I believe that the key differentiator between someone who is beneficially self employed and someone who is self employed because they're being exploited is whether they can afford to turn down work. If an Uber driver can decide Uber isn't paying enough and make a reasonable amount of money driving only for Lyft, then they may be beneficially self employed. If they can't, then worker protections for self employed individuals need tightening.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
The cost of housing (rent, and capital values, even translating to mortgage outlay, even with low interest rates), has generally increased over the last twenty years. In the USA healthcare costs have also gone up significantly. It seems unlikely that people will be able to sustain themselves with 20 hours in minimum wage, given that two people working 40 hours each seems to be more the requirement
Perhaps, just maybe, the federal judge actually read the law? You might consider that a full-time professional who makes a living studying something might be right where your "very clearly" is wrong, especially if you've never even read the law.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Your post can be simplified as:
"I am a lazy shit and assume everyone else must be too. That's why people must be allowed to starve or we would all ruin the world."
Guess what, i would still develop software and build stuff that is hard even if burger flipping paid the same. Because I would rather do that than flip burgers. We are not all lazy shits and we are productive enough to carry dead weight like yourself if you would get out of our way. People with your attitude at work who are only there for a check generate anti-work, which we have to undo before we can make actual advances.
I say free basic cable, internet and single room efficient apartments for all who want them, with generally reversible vasectomies to handle the inevitable irrational slippery slope sustainability argument.
You should go tell your boss you're willing to write software for burger flipping prices. He can fix the uneven distribution just as easily as McDonald's can.
The drivers work when they want to and are free to nap, run personal errands, or smoke cigarettes in between rides
Sounds like some of the employees of the company I work for.
I can't wait for HR departments in companies to be replaced by apps (that will also monitor workers 24/7) so employees classify as "contractors". ...aand we are back to the gilded age.
If you want to ensure that gig economy workers have the best wages and conditions, make sure that there are a large number of gig economy service providers competing with each other.
You do realise that conjuring up enough demand for workers has been a little bit of a problem for almost every country in the world since this thing called the 'great recession'. These are not developers earning $500 a day. They are low skill workers who are competing with robots, and the robots are getting better.
Uber loses appeal in UK employment case / Company must treat its drivers as ‘workers’, tribunal rules https://www.ft.com/content/84d...
If you want to ensure that gig economy workers have the best wages and conditions, make sure that there are a large number of gig economy service providers competing with each other.
I dont think you get how this "gig economy" is meant to work.
The workers... erm... Contractors aren't meant to get the best wages and/or conditions. The system is designed to transfer costs from the employer to the employee... erm... contractor whilst paying them a less than liveable wage in order to ensure the company can make as much money as possible (which also isn't happening).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Because, if Uber drivers are NOT "contractors" and are in fact employees, the effect will be devastation upon the U.S. government. Nearly ALL government agencies employ "contractors". Yet these contractors nearly always are prescribed where to work, when to work, what machines to use, what software to use, etc, etc, etc, etc.
There is essentially, a bulti-billion dollar can of worms that will be opened by legally defining Uber drivers as employees. And while a few state agencies and the like may want that definition, there are trillion dollar corporations like Lockheed-Martin, Northrop Grumman, etc. that would face huge losses if such a designation were applied. And seriously, Uber of almost any company best fits contract work.
> you choose when and where
> you use your own vehicle
Honestly, Uber is merely a "broker".
All of you who thought Uber would be your ticket to riches... and are now resentful that you put extra miles on your new riceburner - in return for finding out that you're nowhere as cool, competent and charismatic as you had thought (those ratings can sure be revealing!) - stand down; this is not your mother's Uber.
Slums 2.0 will involve apps that help people pool together enough money to rent a building, and rather than having "personal" living-space, will optimise room availability on a minute-by-minute basis
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Thousands of Americans (and nearly as many H1B Visa holders) are employed as contractors at government agencies.
- They do not get to choose their work locations
- They do not get to choose when or what days they work
- They are required to use specific workstations
- They do not get to choose what tools or software they use
- They rarely have any lattitude in initiative or judgment of their work
- They often spend years, even a decade working on the same contract
- They often perform identical work as the agency employees
"You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)."
If this is the case, nearly ALL the contractors utilized by U.S. government agencies are in fact, disqualified. And this is why, I really don't think they will crack open that can of worms with Uber. Because the spoiled jam that would be released would literally cause a recession.
UANAL.
u also don't have any idea what you are talking about.
I love that you think you're more knowledgeable than a federal judge about federal law.
You are literally and demonstrably wrong, and are posting under an article that explicitly tells you just how fucking stupid and wrong you are.
Could be, there are places where families of 5 live in 40 sq ft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Or maybe the whole "gig economy" was just a fad that was not going to be sustainable for anybody---something that could tide you over in 2009 when you were laid off and couldn't find a new job in the "recovery," but nothing you would want to do as a career.
As someone who started a gig economy website in 2009 that is still growing and profitable (unlike Uber) in 2018 I can attest that it is not a fad, at least not in my market.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Across the pond Uber has employees rather than independent contractors.
Perhaps it is easier to buy an American judge?
British panel rules Uber drivers are employees, not contractors
A properly run gig economy business takes the money from the rich company that gave the employees a tiny salary and gives it directly to the employee, cutting out the middle man. If properly run, gig economy businesses do not need offices, buildings or employees, everything can be done through a webpage or app, and even development, marketing and support can be done through gig economy, so everyone is working for themselves at rates they believe are fair.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Actually gig economy came to software developers first with sites like freelancer.com
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
How many times in this thread does he have to write "X is one of those criteria, but..." before you get the fucking point that they are very clearly independent contractors?
Fixed that for you. They're very clearly independent contractors. They work the hours they want on the days they want for the pay they want. Doesn't get much more independent than that.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
"Zero is very close to one" - that's true! Lol
Price limits could be a good idea. Maximum prices would protect riders (and Uber's reputation). Minimum prices would prevent math-challenged drivers from losing money by pricing themselves lower than the cost of gas, tires, and mileage, thereby making it impossible for drivers to make money, and again damaging Uber's reputation.
In an ideal economy, we wouldn't need to protect drivers who can't (or don't) do simple arithmetic, but in America I'm afraid we do.
I'm about ready to give up on auto-correct, since I'm obviously never going to start proof reading my own work.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
He didn't say "The Democrats are about ... ." He said "The American left is about ... ."
If you want to ensure that gig economy workers have the best wages and conditions, make sure that there are a large number of gig economy service providers competing with each other.
I dont think you get how this "gig economy" is meant to work. The workers... erm... Contractors aren't meant to get the best wages and/or conditions. The system is designed to transfer costs from the employer to the employee... erm... contractor whilst paying them a less than liveable wage in order to ensure the company can make as much money as possible (which also isn't happening).
Exactly.
Historically, post-WWII, in the West, "gig jobs" mostly fell into two broad categories:
1) High-skilled, well-paying jobs for which there was comparatively a lot of work and a limited supply of skilled labour. This includes both plumbers and freelance programmers. People would go the contractor or "gig" route because they could make more money than working as an employee for someone else in the same field of work. Here, the line between "gig" and "small business" (where does one end, and the other begin?) is often blurred.
2) High-skilled (well, not necessarily, or without necessarily an objective measure of what "skill" is) occupations where overall (sometimes pent-up) demand might be high, but where the payoffs are highly asymmetric and distributed. This includes people like musicians, writers, artists, etc. At the same time, the supply of labour is potentially quite large, but the distribution of skill (or "skill") within that labour supply is highly concentrated in a few individuals which are difficult to identify, all mixed in with a large dose of randomness. So things don't lend themselves to a neat employer-employee relationship (at least not for the vast majority of job-seekers in these fields).
What we have now with Uber and the like fits into neither of those two categories. We have, essentially, old-fashioned low-skilled "piece work". It's no different than low-skilled physical workers idling around in city squares in the late 19th century waiting for someone to pick them for a day's (or a few days' if they were lucky) work, to go dig ditches, clean up trash, carry heavy loads, or whatever - then be paid for that day's work at the end, only to find themselves idling in the square again tomorrow. Perhaps for days, or weeks. While this was great for employers of low-skilled labourers, it was crap for the labourers themselves. No wonder unions and all of that came out of that, along with a whole bunch of leftist political ideology.
Yeah of course they are contractors... they get to decide their own working schedule and everything. But for God's sake, increase the fare a little bit, allow them to keep more percentage so they can make some decent money. I'm a frequent user (10 times a week) and I won't mind a little higher fare. I have a cousin who drives for Uber and I did some careful calculation of his earning over 3 months... he makes equivalent to minimum wage.
I actually meant to say "They are NOT independent contractors" but somehow that got removed from my post.
This is a federal judge in ONE AREA OF THE COUNTRY. There are plenty of contrary rulings otherwise across the country, including other companies like Papa John's which tried the same bullshit, and lost.
I would probably know more because I was ACTUALLY INVOLVED in several of these suits from several companies that have tried this crap. And every last one of them lost.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Wait, no it didn't get removed. Derp my speed reading on large amounts of caffeine. Whatever, the point itself still stands. I've already been in cases where precedent was established. This judge is clearly trying to ignore it.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
It's not a loophole ... My employer would NEVER classify me as a contractor because they are too concerned about whether I'm in my cube at 9am and whether I sent an email and cc'd the right people if I'm not going to be there.
Uber drivers quack like contractors and act like contractors, so they are contractors. I quack like an employee and am forced to act like an employee, therefore I'm an employee.
If you're so concerned about Uber taking advantage of you, then sign up to be a taxi driver instead, or a bus driver employee for one of those public transport or tour agencies.
To be an independent contractor, the contractor has to bill UBER for services rendered.
And that would make UBER a corporation that makes a profit thoughcontracting.
If so, then UBER needs to pay appropriate taxes as a corporation offering a service.
Oh well, Just wait it out to see if I am wrong about contractor/employer/
Uber will pay them for services rendered.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
Sure, you've studied law far deeper than the federal judge who's been doing it for decades. What is it with these 5-minute-experts on Slashdot?
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Medicare for all saves us $17 trillion in the next 10 years.
College for all gives us an educated workforce, which unless you're all about the H1-B visas we need. An educated workforce is also one that thinks critically and is much less likely to to terrible things like pointless wars leading up to genocides and the like.
A living wage is what everyone is due. Roosevelt said it better than I ever could And we don't need to cut spending on social programs. We need to end illegal wars and stop letting the 1% have the entirety of civilization's bounty. Again, remember that $17 trillion in savings from Medicare for all? We could pay off the national _debt_ with that.
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Do Papa John's delivery drivers get to set their own hours and turn down jobs if they feel like it? Are they paid an hourly rate or is it by number and length of delivery?
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.