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Firms Relabelling Low-Skilled Jobs As Apprenticeships, Says Report (bbc.com)

Fast food giants, coffee shops and retailers are relabelling low-skilled jobs as apprenticeships and gaining subsidies for training, a report says. BBC: The study by centre-right think tank Reform says many firms have rebranded existing roles after being obliged to contribute cash to on-the-job training. It adds that 40% of government-approved apprenticeship standards do not meet a traditional definition of them. The government says "quality" is at the heart of its apprenticeship reforms. As part of the changes, it introduced an apprenticeship levy on organisations paying more than $4.3m in salaries a year. They have to pay 0.5% of their wages total into a "digital account" held by HMRC. They then "spend" these contributions on apprenticeship training delivered by registered providers. They can also get back up to 90% of the cost of training. But they are also entitled to pay apprentices lower than the standard minimum wage.

58 comments

  1. A Uniquely English Problem by DatbeDank · · Score: 4, Informative

    If this article didn't make sense, here's why: In America, apprenticeships are generally the realm of blue collar trades.

    In the UK, this is true, however they also broadly include it to also mean "paid internship for office jobs".

    Why? Probably the same reason a boot is a trunk, the letter U is sprinkled everywhere, and beer is served at room temp (not bad) /Giorgio A. Tsoukalos meme hands saying "England".

    This isn't a problem in America because of the word apprenticeship's association with blue collarwork.

    1. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Fact of life: People will do what you pay them to do, not what you think you are paying them to do.

      When I was a kid, my dad offered to pay me 2 cents for every dandylion I removed from the lawn. So I gathered plenty of dandylion seeds and scattered them on the lawn.

    2. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by bugs2squash · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The term apprenticeship carries with it the connotation of being a structured hands-on learning period after which the former apprentice could expect to enter a well paying trade, like plumber or electrician. An alternative to a university degree, but usually accompanied by some kind of community-college style education.

      This sounds to me like a once proud word being stripped of its value to defraud the young and make the government look like they are training the next generation. Who can blame businesses for taking advantage of the process, this would never happen in Germany

      --
      Nullius in verba
    3. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by Sesostris+III · · Score: 1

      Apprenticeship is probably more associated with a trade or craft skill. I suppose these have traditionally been associated with 'blue collar' work, but not necessarily.

      My company works in IT, and we have trained a number of apprentices over the years, most of whom did very well. This was more than just intern-ship - the training that they underwent was quite intensive and rigorous. But then, I've often thought of Software Development (for instance) as a craft skill.

      As to white collar apprentices, wasn't there a US TV show called "The Apprentice"? (We had one here in the UK). I believe the original shows starred one of your more famous businessmen. I wonder whatever happened to him?

      --
      You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake
    4. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's just another employment scam. The government puts immense pressure on young people to do work, any work, and people take advantage of that with fake jobs.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2

      Except it does happen in Germany. Apprentices and vocational students are often enough used like cheap (and ultimately disposable) workers with the companies providing only as much training as absolutely necessary.

      We Germans all too happily adopt bad American habits.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    6. Re: A Uniquely English Problem by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Boy, Germans looking down on the English for once instead of the Americans. This seems weird! I'm used to being the target of your hate, seeing someone else take the abuse is so unexpected. Is there anyone the Germans don't look down on, besides fellow developed First World countries? Obviously shithole countries can do no wrong and would never be criticized.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    7. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Who can blame businesses for taking advantage of the process, this would never happen in Germany

      That's what they said about cheating on emissions tests.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "a once proud word being stripped of its value to defraud the young "

      University?

    9. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Are apprenticeships not regulated in Germany? In North America, apprenticeships are regulated either by the province, or the state. The definition of "what is an apprenticeship" is clear as well, you can't go making up new definition of it because apprenticeships themselves have very specific rules and laws regarding it. Sure, you can get away paying an apprentice $2.20/hr(rate I was paid back in the 90's) when the min. wage was $6.85. That's 100% legal, but those hours I worked were also transferable to any other shop I went to work at. So if I didn't like where I was working after a year, I could take those 2000hrs with me and it still counted towards the 4yr total apprenticeship.

      Sounds like to me that some countries have loosened the definitions far beyond what they think happens in the US for example and now they're paying the price because of "make work" projects.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    10. Re: A Uniquely English Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you think doctors, architects, and engineers are blue collar workers? Their training is apprenticeship in all but name. If a job really matters, you train workers as apprentices. BTW, HE degrees for all were introduced as an alternative to apprenticeships en masse after WWII as a cheaper, faster way to train the workforce.

    11. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Not, of course, the same thing. The emissions test scandal was blatantly breaking the law and lying about it. This is following the law, just not in the way the lawmakers anticipated. Not really the companies' fault that they wrote a stupid law, and you certainly can't prosecute them for it.

    12. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corporate directors get paid bonuses based on how much money they can save their department each year. This was a problem decades ago everywhere. Youth Training Schemes were used to train people to become electricians, plumbers and bricklayers. Very often, the companies didn't follow safety laws and ended up with people being maimed or killed (look up news reports on people being injured by falling hods of bricks), leading to lawsuits and the scheme abandoned. Then there are other positions like "trainee managers", "assistant manager", "junior manager" for shop assistants.

      The same happened to any college or university that went out their way to find engineering students industrial work experience years. Many business directors were just looking for cheap labor that was for their benefit only. They would take on a student, place them in a corner of the building and just give them a pile of work based on "things we've always wanted done, but never had the time". and just leave them there without gaining any experience of working in a project team and talking to people.

      The same happened with MSc projects which had an industrial sponsorship. I knew one person in our year who had to abandon his course half-way through (after giving up his job, mortgage and moved to a shared flat) because the academics insisted that the project thesis component should be completed in the university, while the directors running the sponsorship program insisted that the project thesis work was done with one of their companies (same story as above). Neither side would back down and attempted to time out the other, hoping that the other would buckle close to each deadline (initial project proposal, final project proposal, start of project). Out of frustration, he just quit.

    13. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he caught some disease that turns you orange and makes you crave being peed on. Sort of like a weird reverse rabies. Anyway, he's in a nice managed-care home now rapidly degenerating from dementia.

    14. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lets put the horse back before the cart shall we?

      "Who can blame businesses for taking advantage of the process, this would never happen in Germany"

      Umm its the businesses who are driving the downgrade of apprenticeships, not the other way around. The government set up those programs to help those who want to go through an actual apprenticeship program and it is the businesses that are labeling their training programs as apprenticeships to take advantage of the government. I know its hard but atleast try to read the summary before you post. It is also illogical to think that we can write laws that will cover all future possibilities, this smells of a set of laws/regulations that were written some time ago and are now being taken advantage of so that businesses can save a buck by paying people a lower wage while in an apprenticeship. In fact the freaking article is about how they are reforming apprenticeship regulations to stop this kind of abuse.

    15. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      > this would never happen in Germany

      except it absolutely does. For example you can't just call yourself an engineer in Germany, its a title you have to "earn" by paying for accreditation.

    16. Re: A Uniquely English Problem by reanjr · · Score: 1

      Also Texas.

    17. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by fluffernutter · · Score: 0

      In the US they have 'internship', where people don't get paid at all. That's just wrong.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    18. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I personally know a person who has worked an extremely shitty "apprenticeship" in germany as a junior webdev.

      At one point, his boss dragged him into his office and compared him to "an investment, like the car in my parking lot out there *points*".

      He had to quit due to the combination of SV-style hero culture and also basically not getting anything in return for that - no money, no advancement or increased agency.

    19. Re: A Uniquely English Problem by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      There are actually significant differences between apprenticeships and internships. An internship cannot be paid below minimum wage unless it is an unpaid internship. And if an internship is unpaid, the employer must not derive an immediate benefit from the intern's work. In all other situations, an intern must be paid at least minimum wage.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    20. Re: A Uniquely English Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He had to quit because he was lame.

      Sorry your friend is over the Limbo

    21. Re:A Uniquely English Problem by tomtomtom · · Score: 1

      This is a new use of language even in the UK though. Historically, we had "articled clerkships" for (professional) office jobs, and apprenticeships for trades. That use of language probably disappeared in the 1970s or 80s and it seems everyone has forgotten it.

  2. Firms: Evil by default? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Something I wondered for some time, which might be unpopular here.

    It seems that businesses, as if by definition, alwayy try to use every nasty trick and cheat and trick and lie, or worse, malictiously conceal information, with a complete disregard for healthy human behavior like being soical and having empathy, or just being plain fair,
    and laws play the anti-virus program, always behind several steps.

    So naturally, as a computer expert, I notice that this calls for a whitelist instead of a blacklist. Which would mean criminalizing firms by definition, except for fixed things.

    But obviously that does not sound right either.
    And I don't know if that is just because of my western capitalist bias. (I'm from Luxemburg. The tax haven and country of banks. It's in my blood.)

    In any case I would like a no-compromise complete-fairness-for-everyone solution, and can'd find any.

    Post-knee-jerk, and post cultural / socially conditioned mindsets, what do you guys think?

    1. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by nonBORG · · Score: 1

      Why do you think this is firms, try people. It is people who make these decisions not firms. A firm does what the people who run it decide.

      Don't worry it is not just the CEOs people right down to the drug dealer who kills the competition or the student who cheats on an exam, or the homeless guy who has a sign need money for food and then gets whiskey.

      --
      You can't handle the truth! - Because I don't post left all my comments get modded down, bye bye Karma.
    2. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In any case I would like a no-compromise complete-fairness-for-everyone solution, and can'd find any.

      Instead of whining that it doesn't exist, why don't you create it yourself? Go start a company that pays above market wages, charges below market prices, and spends nothing on any advertising that may annoy someone. Then please come back here and tell us how it worked out. Good luck.

    3. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by belthize · · Score: 1

      I don't think they're evil but only because I don't think that word has any real meaning.

      I think many are led by a psychopath or have a one actively moving up the ranks on their way to the top. The promotion structure of most corporations, not unlike feudal Europe, actively selects for psychopaths.

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne...

    4. Re: Firms: Evil by default? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have a very low opinion of people. Is that based on your own impulses and ways of thinking? The vast majority of the rest of us lead decent, conscientious, compassionate lives. That's why we're so shocked and outraged when we hear about antisocial behaviour.

    5. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've been upvoted for possibly the most moronic strawman bullshit argument.

      Pathetic.

    6. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some would say that Costco is an example of a firm like this, low price high volume model, paying above average wages, and relying upon word of mouth for advertising.

    7. Re: Firms: Evil by default? by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with this. People willing to step on people do so to assume positions of power over groups.

      Most people are decent. Decent people don't get ahead as often as bastards do. "Getting ahead" means getting to make the decisions.

    8. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      This is a simple numeric fallacy. You look at the outliers and assume they represent the mean.

    9. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Here is the deal. No work experience NO JOB!! No references NO JOB! No one gives a shit about your fancy piece of paper called a degree. ... also if it is not profitable to pay someone money for a job not needed also NO JOB! The joke on reddit is to become a system administrator you first have to become a system administrator! How do you get that? By working for free and taking low wage shit contract jobs to build up your resume, references, and reputation. Then you can tell an employer to fuck themselves if they try to short you. But if you have no job then there is nothing you can do.

      Firms are not evil. They are like you. They only pay for things they want and if they can get it done cheaper they will just like if you for anything you want to buy. That is bad news. The good news is the FreeMarket can work in your favor if you have experience and a skill. Economics 101 dictates that you can't equal all jobs minimum wage. Someone will always pay more for a skilled worker they need more than their present employer.

      To be a developer you first have to work for free. THen work for 4 weeks for $100 on an ad for craigslist while you work at the mall with the highschoolers. The next job you get it done in 2 weeks for another $100 and so on. THen you temp for $20/hr. ...3 years later you bill $70,000 a year. 10 years later $150,000 a year.

      I am in favor of more apprenticeships and got into a debate last week on LinkedIN. The reason these poor millennials are living with their parents is they were too good to flip burgers and do free internships over the summer while at college. Guess who got the jobs upon graduation? The ones who had references of course.

    10. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      I thought about changing career paths and doing software development. I realized I would have to work for free to gain references from Craigslist gigs. Then make maybe $100 for s months worth of work for a website then contract for $20/hr after 6 months and so on etc.

      I started I.T. at 14/hr when I was younger living at home with my parents as a subcontractors subcontractor.I can't do that at my age and pay rent.

      Part of me feels the solution to not having work experience is to gain it anyhow but if it's not in the right field then fuck it.

    11. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Why do you think this is firms, try people. It is people who make these decisions not firms. A firm does what the people who run it decide.
       

      Thing is that when people act as a group such as a committee, suddenly their morals disappear as they give responsibility to the other guy.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    12. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Very difficult for someone without a certain amount of wealth behind it. The reason why these companies do this is to keep more generous companies out of the market. You have to fight fire with fire. Jeff Bezos could change this but not just anyone. A normal person could go sell the idea to investors but then you wouldn't profit much from it anyway.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    13. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Mod up. You just defined the entire gig economy.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    14. Re: Firms: Evil by default? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They exist. I pay above market wages and salaries. I don't advertise and work on word of mouth. It only works if you have a proper system in place. I'm not losing money and I have a reputation with everyone for on time delivery, almost 5 star reviews on employment sites, zero accidents and overall happy environment.

      The only reason this doesn't work at other places is because they have no long term planning. Their entire company is based off low pay low skilled workers, including management, with expectations of high margins. This system continues perpetually (Until someone puts a stop to it) and will drag you into that kind of mentality if you work there. I also have to be careful with hiring because these types of people will bring your place to ruins bringing their type of cost saving.

    15. Re: Firms: Evil by default? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if your company out grows you and becomes to big to handle does this possibility increase. There are ways to root these people out and that is to implement procedures to follow and long term planning. They will still be there but their damage will be contained. But you have to be careful here as too many bad rules will bring carelessness to the company.

    16. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Here is the deal. No work experience NO JOB!! No references NO JOB! No one gives a shit about your fancy piece of paper called a degree

      That wasn't my experience. I had a few offers straight out of my undergraduate degree, but decided to do a PhD instead. During the PhD, I did some consulting on the side. After that, I continued worked freelance (I was making enough during my PhD to cover my cost of living even without the stipend) for five years and had no shortage of clients from word-of-mouth referrals (I didn't advertise and very rarely actively solicited work). I applied to Google and was offered a job, but decided to go back into academia for a bit (much more fun, much less money). At this point, I had nothing on my CV that looked like a job. I stayed there for 6 years and then was headhunted by an industrial research lab, where I'll be starting next month. Before I went back to academia, I had never held a proper job (and many would argue that I still haven't), but that didn't stop me from getting an offer from both Google.

      Oh, and neither my undergraduate degree nor my PhD was from an institution that most people will have heard of and my PhD was in an area that is almost completely unrelated to anything I've worked on since. Companies want some evidence of competence but they're generally in the business of getting stuff done and there's a lot more stuff that needs doing than there are people to do it.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    17. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Falos · · Score: 1

      >tell us how it worked
      If it does that means we never needed any solution in the first place, dumbass.

    18. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately there's usually a lot more stuff that needs doing than there is budget to pay people for doing it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    19. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      You kind of proved my point. You had word of mouth references and contacts. If you are a 4 year student and have no word of mouth you're fucked.

      No one will bother wasting their time to talk to you as a "real" candidate is always available.

    20. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was modded up because he made a brilliant insight into the mindset of the typical company hater. So many of these people hate the market itself rather than any particular firm and so often call for government intervention rather than organizing a boycott or, better yet, out-competing the firm.

    21. Re:Firms: Evil by default? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you work for free, there's a name for that: slavery.
      Fucking Rayntard.

  3. How to apply? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I hire a high school student to mow my lawn

    I hire another high school student to babysit my children

    Where and how to apply for government subsidies for both of my apprentices?

    1. Re:How to apply? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I hire a high school student to mow my lawn

      I hire another high school student to babysit my children

      Where and how to apply for government subsidies for both of my apprentices?

      Renaming

      In your application for government subsidies, do identify the person who mow your lawn as "Botanic Lifecycle Specialist" and the one who takes care of your children as "Child Development Specialist"

      That way you can claim big subsidies from the government

    2. Re:How to apply? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hire a high school student to mow my lawn

      I hire another high school student to babysit my children

      Where and how to apply for government subsidies for both of my apprentices?

      Ask the IRS. I'm sure they will be happy to give you a training rebate... right after they charge you a filing fee, invoice you for back taxes on your apprentices' wages & probably find a few more creative excuses to charge you.

  4. Well at least apprentidhip sounds better than by bobstreo · · Score: 1

    Serfdom. Maybe the "Firms" could just provide a nice thatched hut and some gruel as pay... /s

  5. So, so sum up.... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

    Law passed that charges companies money if they don't have enough jobs called "apprenticeships". Companies respond by retitling arbitrary jobs "apprenticeships". How surprising.

    1. Re:So, so sum up.... by dyfet · · Score: 1

      the new serfs...

  6. The Guardian has insight on this by wonkavader · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is old enough news that the backlash against this has already hit print media.

    The Guardian print version is here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/ne...
    Or if you prefer the same content as a podcast, it's here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/ne...

    Since this is England, the whole thing directly relates to class. Upper-class (or perhaps the Brits call that 'Middle-class') jobs essentially require a an internship now before you can get a real job. Finishing an internship means being able to afford to live with no paycheck in London for six months. This means only the wealthy can afford to have an internship. This locks the educated non-wealthy out of the higher-class professions.

    So this is not about serfdom -- a path with no escape. It's about making people pay for jobs. You have to BUY your job. (LIke you'd BUY a commission in the army in a Jane Austin novel.) And if you cannot afford to buy your job, you're the wrong sort of person for work here anyhow. Nudge nudge wink wink.

    1. Re:The Guardian has insight on this by Ulfilas2000 · · Score: 1

      I wish I had moderator points to mod you up... It's true- if you have a lot of money you can sit out an unpaid/underpaid internship at a desirable company whereas most stiffs take whatever they can get...

    2. Re:The Guardian has insight on this by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Also, I'd like to add that these jobs, once you have one, more frequently pay only enough to keep you reliant on said job and not one penny more.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:The Guardian has insight on this by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I read that article when it came out, but it seems to be missing the root cause of the problem: oversupply of workers in certain industries. Why are people being steered towards qualifications for careers for which the supply massively outstrips the demand? My students typically find summer placements working in technology companies where they're typically paid a salary of around £45K/year pro-rated for the term of the internship (usually 2-3 months). A few weeks ago I was at a dinner sitting with second-year economics students. They have internships at city companies and make my students look badly paid in comparison. Companies are willing to pay this because they want to hire good people and having a 3-month interview period where they can determine with high accuracy whether someone is competent and can have an extended period to pitch the company to the student as a place to work at the end of their degree is one of the cheapest way of hiring.

      Perhaps making universities publish the average monthly amount that their students make from internships and the percentage that get internships would go a long way. Drop the number of people wanting to go into fashion or journalism by 80% and you'll see unpaid internships go away as companies scrabble around to find the best potential employees.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  7. Different by bussdriver · · Score: 2

    Germany structured it's corporate law to require that the corporate boards INCLUDE labor. The very definition and function of corporations are done by government; you can do it foolishly or smart... So, NO it would not happen in Germany because labor has a real voice in management.

    Emissions is another whole issue and one where labor is aligned with management. A solution on this one could be to have a government official on the board... except that could be a nightmare in so many ways... but you could REQUIRE full accounting of everything that transpires so accountability is possible when they get caught. Some of which does happen if they don't manage to shred and wipe all the evidence; which so far they often miss bits but get enough that you can't beat their army of lawyers and bribed officials. This is a place where a blockchain style ledger would be quite useful. It would make it hard to remove evidence; they'd have to manage in secret to avoid any records... and that should be a crime. Also could stop all these golf informal meetings where a lot of bad things happen. I bet the world would be a better place if you just outlawed golf... (strip clubs are impossible to ban; just try running a black market golf club...) losing golf would be a small price to pay.

  8. Slave labour by TJHook3r · · Score: 1

    As most people will notice, except regulators it seems, this is a scam to pay below the already pitiful minimum wage. Jobs that take 6 hours to learn should not be permitted to misuse apprenticeships. There is a place for white-collar apprenticeships but only for developing staff at a fair price.