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Alibaba Co-founder Says Many Americans 'Want To Stop China' From Upgrading Its Tech (cnbc.com)
With the threat of Trump's ever-looming trade war with China and his administration's sanctions on Chinese companies like ZTE, it's hard to remember a more contentious period between the two countries in recent times. Adding fuel to the conversation, an Alibaba co-founder alleged that many Americans want to stop China from upgrading its technology and from becoming more innovative. From a report: Chinese media outlets have repeatedly asserted that American complaints about the tech sector are really just efforts to slow the country's rise as a global power. "There's nothing wrong with a country wanting to upgrade its own manufacturing sector, go higher tech, be more innovative," Tsai said. "But then, from the Chinese perspective, what we're seeing is there are a lot of people in America that want to stop China from doing that." After three decades of producing low-end manufacturing goods, Tsai said, China recognizes the need to develop better technology, upgrade its manufacturing sector and focus more on value-added areas like robotics, aeronautics and high-tech medical equipment.
They want Taiwan to have their independence without a bully over their shoulder.
So our only recourse is to try to stop other countries from innovating! No way can we allow someone a chance at bettering themselves if we're not able to steal the betterment for our own use.
American companies prefer to not have their IP stolen by foreign companies. Also, don't start with something as silly and foolish as: "it's hard to remember a more contentious period between the two countries in recent times". Really? Is it that hard to remember more contentious countries? Let me get you started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
...means stealing innovation from the west, and yea the west probably doesn't want that.
upgrading your government should be your first priority...
He can't figure out that he lives in a Communist Dictatorship? Why would we want to prop up a country that shares no value to our own.
"You won't let us steal your IP without repercussion and just sit back and not contribute anything to the world"
China will develope something new; but until then its business as usual.
Edited for truth.
it's hard to remember a more contentious period between the two countries in recent times.
Well, Saudi Arabia is bombing the crap out of Yemen. Russia has been covertly sending troops into Ukraine. Israel and Iran are almost at war.
So yeah, one country increasing tariffs on another is probably the most contentious thing going on right now.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
Who doesn't want their greatest rival to be struggling?
While I want to watch China suffer another two centuries of "shame" (which most working poor Chinese don't even care about), America needs a worthy rival.
Otherwise, this country stagnates which is what has happened since the Soviet Union went belly up in 1991. Another cold war won't hurt anyone and would probably start another space race. All good things in my eyes.
Innovate away ON YOUR OWN China, just don't expect to get the free USA ride you've been getting this entire time to keep going.
Basically he's denying China cheats like the wind. To be fair, when USA industry was young, we played intellectual property games with Europe also.
But when you become a trading super-power, your scrappy "street-smarts" 3rd-world tendencies need to be corrected or you will face retaliation. You can no longer fly under the radar. China has yet to kick its bad habits.
Table-ized A.I.
Maybe they just want to stop having tech stolen and show up in Chinese products that largely look like clones of the stolen products that are in turn then sold back to the foreign markets at much lower cost. There is no way any american laws or tariffs would prevent or even could prevent China from having its own ideas, creating new product categories, and then selling them to other countries that would feel safe using them
We created tomato sauce.
I fail to see the connection between the Americans deciding they don't want to import some stuff, or import less of it, and the Chinese upgrading or not upgrading their own country's stuff. What prevents them from doing so?
Ezekiel 23:20
"be more innovative"
Yep, the problem US companies have with Chinese companies is that they're always being "innovative", and is not at all because of the rampant copying.
America has stopped innovating in the real world. Its main driving force has become the development of fraudulent financial instruments and ways to extract every last bit of revenue out of labor, existing technologies and imaginary property. Of course they feel threatened by a country that still improves in actual, real world ways.
China continues to require that nearly all companies that operate in CHina to have 51% chinese ownership (though cars are now exempted, though they will still pay high tariffs). Likewise, the companies will be required to turn over IP to Chinese owners.
And yet, this is America's fault for a western company wanting to keep their IP, while Chinese companies will sue for theft of their IP.
Yeah, totally makes sense.
Now, if Trump would just do his GD job or at least keep a few of his promises esp for dealing with CHina.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
"upgrade its own manufacturing sector, go higher tech, be more innovative"
Upgrade it's manufacturing and going higher in tech, ok. But most, if not all, of the leaps in tech have been ripped off. So no. China is not interested in innovation. In fact, I wonder how well they will do. Not saying they are not capable, but if most of your tech improvements are from re-engineering products, do they know how to innovate? Really make something out of nothing? Dream up a new "widget" or "tech" that doesn't exist, and might not work, then try and make it? It's a very different culture to do this, especially if you're used to taking a current product and remaking it. (which the Chinese are very good at doing)
Afraid of different cultures, of different people, of people of different colour, and they're afraid of not being supposedly #1 anymore, and of course afraid of the world outside their own borders.
In Americans' minds, every other country is an "adversary", and if they become good at something or are generally doing well, then Americans see it as a threat and an attack on them. They are afraid and paranoid.
But, they will have to overcome it. The world needs America far less than America needs the world, and eventually the world will stand up to your paranoid antics and force you to fall in line.
America will be disciplined like the small angry child it is. It will be for the better, and they will realise it eventually.
China very obviously is empire building and that's what we want to stop.
ZTE broke an International embargo and then blatantly lied about implementing the remedies it had agreed to. There is a general unease with China's grown economic and military power but ZTE's case had absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Chinese companies need to learn that being cozy with the Chinese Communist party can't protect them in the world stage
China continues to require that nearly all companies that operate in CHina to have 51% chinese ownership
And why is that so? Hm? Any idea? Most (all?) asian countries have laws like that. And: why is tat wo? Hm? Any idea?
A country that got fucked over by outside forces over a course of 300 - 400 years makes a law that all companies inside needs to be minimum 51% owned by its citizens. Wow, and you somehow think that makes no sense? Because after the tea party your country never got fucked over? Perhaps you should for funk sake start reading some history books?
If I was "King of Germany" every non European company would most certainly be 51% owned by Europeans. And if I was "King of the EU" I would establish that in the whole EU, to get you -fuckers- out!
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Moving the goal posts back a couple hundred years? Yeah... I see what you did there.
With the amount of flip-flopping Trump does, I am sure he keeps 50% of his promisses.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
That's mostly military tech. Everyone expects and does military espionage.
But China plays games on the commercial side. It would be like the US Federal Gov't breaking into Chinese OS companies and giving the trade secrets to Microsoft, or creating red-tape for foreign competitors to MS that MS itself doesn't have.
Table-ized A.I.
You're right, I missed the article "the" Now take a pill and relax, 'cause it doesn't mean I'm not right. Something similar happened seventeen years ago, which isn't that long a time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
First of all, American companies don't have much of a problem with China as evidenced by the shortage of complaints they file against Chinese companies (with the exception of piracy - but that is a different kind of IP than is being discussed here), i.e. it is a patent or trade secret).
Secondly, the idea of imaginary property is a very dubious one, and one that is designed by the newly powerful thieves to not give back what they stole in the first place. Here are some examples:
Most of the fruit you eat originated in Asia. Peaches, apples, pomegranates, etc all originated in China or central Asia. Those farmers spent generations selectively breading them and improving the genome. Now comes Monstanto or some other American biofarm company and says, hey you cannot keep the seed of the harvest you planted because I worked on improving it. How very convinient!
The same goes for many livestock. Guess where the Arabian horses originate from? Should the midle easterns be getting a share of the loot Europeans stole from the Americas as they used their horses? Same goes for much of the foundation of western knowledge. For example, if Copernicus was to publish his paper today, he would have been nailed to the walls for plagiarizing Muslim texts down the diagrams and formulas. I can bring up similar example in medicine for Ayurvedic practices to Avecina's texts there were taught in Europe until not too long ago. Should these nations now sue NASA and other western companies because their IP was used for space exploration and in other devices?
And the US itself was a perpetraitor of so much intellectual property. If you were to go only a little over a 100 years back you will see all the complaints that UK and Europe were filing against Americans outright break of copyright and IP theft.
I know what you are going to say...these text and trees and so on were done long time ago and their IP has expired. But who decides when the IP expires? As far as I can tell it is the holding nation. The US and EU routinely extend copyright and patent life well beyond the original timeframe (and original intent, I must add). So why can't China or Iran or Iraq declare an IP life of 400 years?
It must be so convenient for the US that having taken IP of generations of Asian farmers and scientists to not allow anyone else to do the same. Or that after having translated and used whatever Chinese, Indian, or Arabic scientific texts they could get their hands on, suddenly declaring that it is bad to copy works of others without paying off...a pay off by the way that keeps being a moving target and is unilaterally set.
You should read up a bit on your history before getting on your high horse.
are the Chinese, we are all just humans living on a single planet. Nationalism is a provincial, small minded perspective held by small minded individuals who can't see past differences to see the common goal of living better co-cooperatively. Nationalists are competitive jerks and are just childish losers looking to step on others just to further their own greedy fantasies of power over others. Nationalism is evil, pure and simple. Thanks for wrecking the world with your unethical actions.
We can just let Russia take your fucking countries, who needs you. There you go. We are out of there.
Actually American's are too self absorbed to give a shit except when China literally steals American developed technology or cheats in the market with the help of their government. Not to say the US is pure in that regard either but if China could be bothered to just reasonably fair it would be fine for everyone but the most xenophobic among us.
Many Americans whine about jobs moving to China but they moved there because they pay their workers a lot less on average. If we were willing to work for Chinese wages then those labor intensive jobs could stay here. I don't think that's really what Americans actually want when they really think about it. That's why every time you hear a politician (falsely) promising to "bring back manufacturing jobs" they are so full of shit their eyes are probably brown. The only way that happens is if American accept a huge reduction in wages. There are lots of manufacturing jobs still here but you need more than just a high school diploma for a lot of them.
Are most American that stupid that you cannot have a rational discussion with them; from this /. thread I'd say yes. Most Americans are idiotic.
Stop lying Windy. Show the slightest evidence for your fake news posts.
And American employees want to stop seeing their jobs shipped overseas.
They can do this any time they want. They just have to accept the same wages as their overseas competitors. It's a hard reality but US wages are among the highest in the world. If you want to compete on price you have to have lower costs than the other guy.
Yeah, disregarding trump, how exactly has America harmed Europe? Even now, Europe owns a number of American based companies, and vs. versa.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Moving the goal posts back a couple hundred years? Yeah... I see what you did there.
I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Are you saying developing countries now should be held to a different standard than countries whose economies were in a similar state 200 years ago? If so, do you believe that only because it's different when you do it or do you have a reasonable reason to feel this way?
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
When is the US closing all military bases around the world then?
You have what you can get away with. That's the true american way.
Google Wholly Foreign Enterprise(WFOE or WOFE)
realize how wrong you are.
Not care and keep pushing your anti-China narrative.
Seriously. Stop buying other countries.
If you mean electric vehicle with EV, then no. america is decades behind Europe.
What color is the sky on your planet? You certainly aren't basing that claim on any facts (nor did you provide any) so one has to presume you are talking about a different America and a different Europe than the one here on Earth.
Tesla made a new and better battery and manages to sell a nice set of cars ... but in the vehicle itself is nothing really innovative.+
Spare me your attempt to seem unimpressed. "Nothing really innovative"? You might have an argument if anyone else was making more innovative vehicles. Nobody has moved the auto industry more towards electrification than Tesla and to claim their cars aren't innovative is preposterous even if you don't like them.
Are you fucking kidding me or are you seriously that young. The article itself STINKS of Chineese propaganda.
It states "recent times" yet also "After three decades of producing low-end manufacturing goods, Tsai said,". Which is it.
Countries like China and India have been sucking the teets of Western countries for so long they changed the milk to Soy.
Don't insult China like that.
China is full of corrupt cheaters with no respect for the rule of law. But the Chinese as a people will work their asses off.
India is full of corrupt cheaters with no respect for the rule of law. And they're too damn lazy to wake up in the fucking morning.
I would hope so. I would hope we as a globally connect species who have shrunk the world down to meer days have different standards than our ancestors.
Some of the crap we can even agree on: no torture, no inhumane weapons, no slavery, no killing of babies, no raping, no nuclear waste dumping, etc.
The answer is on the surface. As long as American business used china as cheap labor force and all profits stayed in USA, China trade was welcome, but when percentage of Chinese brands started to outgrow american. It is no longer needed.
Other than sending all those refugees fleeing from the wars you keep starting...
Pumping out 2-3 times the CO2 that Europe does...
Forcing them to accept infinity -1 copyrights...
The entire 19th century history of American Industry is a **** You to Great Britain. We basically laughed at them in terms of patent and copyright protection.
Oh fuck off.
You different standards didn't apply with the practical reality of displacing people so that you could have a two-ocean superpower with defensible land in between.
They never will either.
I would hope so. I would hope we as a globally connect species who have shrunk the world down to meer days have different standards than our ancestors.
Some of the crap we can even agree on: no torture, no inhumane weapons, no slavery, no killing of babies, no raping, no nuclear waste dumping, etc.
While I wasn't explicit, I thought it was clear I meant acting the same from an economic standpoint. It is stretch for you to bring up slavery and torture and insinuate I would support developing countries today committing those acts.
Intellectual property rights and slavery are very different things and I'm not sure why you are creating some kind of equivalency between them.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
1) Yeah, America keeps starting all those wars in the middle east. Lets see. We are responsible for invasion of Iraq. That is true.
However, it was Europe that pushed the invasion of Libya, which is where most of the european refugees come from.
From that, ISIS came about, and then Europe pushed America to solve that issue.
Basically, the ONLY 2 that America deserves responsibility for is Iraq and Afghanistan. And Afghanistan invaded America first.
2) USA leads all nations in reducing carbon emissions. And there are a bunch more articles on it.
The pretty little graphs show that only in recent years has Europe not been equal or exceeded America. And what was really missing from that, is recent time, when EU has flatlined on their emissions, while America continues to drop.
And 2-3 x EU's emssions? Not even close.
3) yeah, that copyright shit really pisses me off. Sorry about that. However, it is not just American businesses pushing that. It is also European.
It's the blatant stealing you've done to me four times now with successive LED designs I've asked various companies to manufacture for me, only for them to turn around and sell my fucking units to a competitor.
And this is why all my primary manufacturing gets done here in the USA, by my own hand. Fuck you assholes, you just supply raw components to me. No more asking you to build advanced things for me when you steal it.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Now there are innovative and competitive chinese products out there. Trump just likes stroking the "Were number 1" jingoism among the old timers some more.
Your not number 1 unless you earn it and keep earning it.
No, you dumb fucker, we want you and your government to stop taking it just because you can. Requiring every company that does business in your country to have majority ownership that is Chinese, well, if you look at your past history of, say, the last 20 years, how much technology has your government acquired simply because of that rule? I know my former employer no longer does business in your country since even before you decided not to continue the relationship, you had already copied the technology and built an identical (from the same fucking blueprints) factory in a different city.
So take your holier than thou attitude about being excluded, set it on fire, and stick it up your ass.
I don't think many people realise that we're in an ideological war like we were with the USSR.
Much like the Soviets, the Chinese Communist Party has been busy systematically infiltrating and undermining the institutions of western society in order to undermine our belief in liberal democracy. This has been going on since Tiananmen Square.
I recently read a newly published book "Silent Invasion: China's Influence in Australia" by Clive Hamilton. (Non-referral link) It's highly alarming and lays out in detail a lot of what I've suspected has been happening for the last 20 years. You'll see things like China's activity in the South China Sea in a whole new light.
The book doesn't just apply to Australia, but all of the western world. China leaned on organisations in Australia to not publish or promote the book. Everyone concerned about the survival of western liberal democracy should read this book. The author is a noted left-wing/progressive intellectual, so you can't cry that it's a racist, right-wing nut job thing.
Trump is the first Western leader to recognise the threat that China poses. He also has the balls to push back rather than bend over so that party donors can enrich themselves at the long-term expense of western civilisation.
...the US DISREGARDED AND DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT about European patents or Copyrights.
Oh, we certainly regarded them: feel free to shut your mouth for a bit and learn a little.
feel free to shut your mouth for a bit and learn a little.
I can't speak for "many Americans", I can only speak for myself.
That said, I'd be happy if China merely stopped stealing the IP of others. Additionally, strong-arming the forfeiture of IP is also objectionable. This is all known to be SOP for China and Chinese businesses.
Want to be respected? Want to be great and successful for the long-term? Make your own accomplishments and don't steal.
I see some signs in China that understand what this means. Not enough but some. Apparently Joe Tsai isn't one of those who understands, even though confusingly he heads up Alibaba, which is a domestic Chinese success story. Did Alibaba steal IP to establish itself or did they do it through hard work, smarts and initiative? See how theft casts a shadow over accomplishments?
I don't know why people keep saying this like it's fact, because it's definitely not the correct. There are things called WFOEs in China, which means wholly foreign owned entity. You don't need to have a partnership with a Chinese company for many types of businesses. The ones that require a Chinese partner were fields like IT services, finance, and car manufacturing. IT was was because of security reasons (Great Firewall), Finance was due to capital controls. As to cars it was because they didn't want their domestic manufacturers to simply go bankrupt. Now laws are changing, such that car manufacturers won't need to have a partner. Telsa will probably one of the first going into China without a partner.
We want to stop them from STEALING our technologies. When we upgrade, we want to stop them from stealing the upgrades too.
Unless one is under threats, each party involved in any deal can make any demand and the other parties can walk away if he doesn't like it. If these American companies don't like transferring IPs, then they can walk away. Just like a Chinese company should not deal with the US if it doesn't want to obey the (questionably erected) Iran sanction. (In practice, most companies may transfer some assembling IP over to the Chinese entities while retaining the most valuable components/tech; which is why much of the Chinese surplus in manufacturing are actually just transferring costs of components they purchased from abroad. Chinese usually just do the last step of assembling. There is likely little IP forced to be transferred.)
Then you all know that how silly the US patent system has become. US companies have become patent trolls filing massive number of garbage patents over the year. How would a newcomer such as China can ever have a fair competing ground in such a skewed IP ecosystem? Why don't people in tech complain about the US patent system in other context but never when it involves China?
If only they'd pay their workers similar to what western countries pay theirs, that'd drive mfg back to north america.
You gave a 4 year old reddit link that says America is #19 for scientific papers per population. Or even further behind in GDP / paper at #31
The USA let China do that as part of the cold war.
China opened up to the USA and then China moved away from the Soviet Union.
For that deal a lot of US tech had given to Communist China.
The US could enjoy low cost production lines in China bu the tech had to be given to China.
Generations of advanced US innovation was lost to China for some 1970's politics.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
So the USA has to keep offering China its tech for free in 2018 for some "300 - 400 years" reading of history?
When does this constant need for reparations from the USA to Communist China stop?
When is the USA finally able trade with China as an equal?
The USA is not the UK when "reading some history books... about China.
The US can set any trade policy it wants in 2018 with its tech.
China can invite in experts and try and extract tech from the advanced West.
Start making tech in China with its own domestic experts.
The US does not have to "give" China tech advances for free every decade.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Fuck off Windy. You have never shown a single lie.
You are still just claiming random idiots (maybe it's you all along) are me and are lying.
Show at least a little honour if you are going to have that sig...
So the USA has to keep offering China its tech for free in 2018 for some "300 - 400 years" reading of history? ... why do you think that? Who implied that?
No it has not
When is the USA finally able trade with China as an equal? What stupid meme is that? You buy stuff from China you sell stuff to them. Thats all.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re "by outside forces over a course of 300 - 400 years makes a law that all companies inside needs to be minimum 51% owned by its citizens."
Why is USA tech in 2018 and US trade policy in 2018 in some way connected to what happened to China 300 years ago?
The USA does not have to give its advanced tech to China due to "reading some history books".
Why should a US company have to enter into an unfair trade agreement with a company in China and transfer its tech to China in 2018?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Last week, in an interview with Fox News, Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt claimed: "We are leading the nation — excuse me — the world with respect to our CO2 footprint in reductions."
The Washington Post fact-checked this claim and rated it "Three Pinocchios," which means they rate the claim mostly false. They further wrote that Pruitt's usage of data appeared to be a "deliberate effort to mislead the public."
Here's a picture if your own links words aren't enough for you to see it.
Sweden France Spain UK Educate yourself simpleton.
America is way dirtier than Europe, Dirtiest in the world along with Canada and Australia, but still a bit worse than them.
You can only be WindBourne with that level of stupidity/denial.
Instead the US forces other countries to use $US as reserve currency and oil purchases, and then prints it's own resources.
Afghanistan invaded America? Are you for real?
Europe created ISIS?
We all knew Americans were stupid, but this is taking it to a whole other level.
USA leads all nations in reducing carbon emissions.
It's trivial to be leading in reducing something if you are by far the biggest in the first place.
America leads in the reduction of mass school killings. Way higher than the UK and France.
But the US does precisely that. But foreign negotiations and then have Americans sneak in with a slightly lower bit because they know what the other 'secret' bids were, etc.
Why should a US company have to enter into an unfair trade agreement with a company in China and transfer its tech to China in 2018?
If you would find the trade agreement unfair, you would not sign the contract, or would you?
No idea what point you want to make.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
But they generally didn't give their best tech. And if they did, they did it with the full knowledge of what would happen with it. They simply saw all those potential consumers, and those low wages and wanted a shot at the money.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" --Isaac Newton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Casteism