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Oracle Plans To Switch Businesses to Subscriptions for Java SE (infoworld.com)
A reminder for commenters: non-commercial use of Java remains free. An anonymous reader quotes InfoWorld:
Oracle has revamped its commercial support program for Java SE (Standard Edition), opting for a subscription model instead of one that has had businesses paying for a one-time perpetual license plus an annual support fee... It is required for Java SE 8, and includes support for Java SE 7. (As of January 2019, Oracle will require a subscription for businesses to continue getting updates to Java SE 8.)
The price is $25 per month per processor for servers and cloud instances, with volume discounts available. For PCs, the price starts at $2.50 per month per user, again with volume discounts. One-, two-, and three-year subscriptions are available... The previous pricing for the Java SE Advanced program cost $5,000 for a license for each server processor plus a $1,100 annual support fee per server processor, as well as $110 one-time license fee per named user and a $22 annual support fee per named user (each processor has a ten-user minimum)...
If users do not renew a subscription, they lose rights to any commercial software downloaded during the subscription. Access to Oracle Premier Support also ends. Oracle recommends that those choosing not to renew transition to OpenJDK binaries from the company, offered under the GPL, before their subscription ends. Doing so will let users keep running applications uninterrupted.
Oracle's senior director of product management stresses that the company is "working to make the Oracle JDK and OpenJDK builds from Oracle interchangeable -- targeting developers and organisations that do not want commercial support or enterprise management tools."
The price is $25 per month per processor for servers and cloud instances, with volume discounts available. For PCs, the price starts at $2.50 per month per user, again with volume discounts. One-, two-, and three-year subscriptions are available... The previous pricing for the Java SE Advanced program cost $5,000 for a license for each server processor plus a $1,100 annual support fee per server processor, as well as $110 one-time license fee per named user and a $22 annual support fee per named user (each processor has a ten-user minimum)...
If users do not renew a subscription, they lose rights to any commercial software downloaded during the subscription. Access to Oracle Premier Support also ends. Oracle recommends that those choosing not to renew transition to OpenJDK binaries from the company, offered under the GPL, before their subscription ends. Doing so will let users keep running applications uninterrupted.
Oracle's senior director of product management stresses that the company is "working to make the Oracle JDK and OpenJDK builds from Oracle interchangeable -- targeting developers and organisations that do not want commercial support or enterprise management tools."
Oracle is dying
So, you can't download JavaSE for development if you're a business without paying a subscription fee OR you can't get special support and extra development applications without paying for the subscription fee?
If you're a business that just wants to develop vanilla Java SE applications (not run on a server or anything) does this affect that? The wording SOUNDS like it's for support and Premiere/Advanced downloads but it's not wholly clear...
-SaNo
Many applications require Java to run. I can't see my company paying $2M+ per year for Java to run those applications.
Goodbye, Slashdot!
The same reason I use C++ instead of Microsoft Word!
I'm not one to defend Oracle's business practices, but OpenJDK is where the free lunch is at. It has largely the same codebase. Just stick with that. It also supports major versions for quite some time, backed by both Oracle and Red Hat.
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Then you come across a product that is only compatible with 'Oracle Java'...
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
If you come across a product that is only compatible with "Oracle Java" you back away as the product is almost certainly written by incompetents. Actually, "almost certain" is being polite. There's absolutely no logical reason for something written in Java to require Oracle's implementation and that's something every Java developer knows.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Or Python 3 when you also have Python 2 scripts... :-). BTW I don't know of that many products that require Oracle Java, probably most are Oracle products. And when you're in bed with Oracle, you're in trouble with their view on licenses and doing business anyway....
I was talking about where you develop something, if you come across a product that is only compatible with Oracle Java, choosing Python really is no option
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I believe Oracle does this with every JDK as they approach End of Life. ("Want us to continue patching JDK 8 rather than you upgrading to JDK 9? Fine, then pay us"). The story here is just the pricing model has changed AFAIK.
--- "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
The fact a tech website like this is full of users convinced that this means that commercial users of Java will now have to start paying is VERY bad news for Java. It re-enforces the feeling most people have that Oracle's takeover means Java is ceasing to be an open, free, technology, that was already a gut feeling most had when they started suing Google.
Despite being such a promising platform, between the poor and over ideological stewardship of James Gosling and his successors, and Oracle's malignant behavior over licensing, it's a system fewer and fewer people will want anything to do with.
People may be "wrong" about what this announcement means, but it doesn't matter: Their misunderstandings re-enforce a negative narrative about the platform, and we're seeing another nail in its coffin.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Azul offers OpenJDK builds for a lot of platforms using a product called Zulu, which is free of charge if you don't want any support. IMO they're better than Oracle's OpenJDK builds because you get more platforms. I think Zulu's might also continue to get security updates for longer than Oracle is willing to provide them for old versions of Java, so if you're stuck on Java 7 or 8, this is a great alternative. Of course, updating your code so you can jump to OpenJDK 10 is better, but sometimes that can take a long time for projects hitting worst-case issues with backwards compat.
Looking at their site, they seem to offer another product that claims better latency consistency, called Zing, that is non-free. So that tells me that Zulu is mostly unmodified OpenJDK builds (although they could be marginally faster if they are compiled with different option flags or a better compiler than Oracle uses). Zing is something else entirely.
P.S. - I am not a shill for Azul. I've never done business with them, worked for them, or bought their products. But I have downloaded their free OpenJDK builds and find them much more convenient to download (with fewer nags) than Oracle Java or Oracle OpenJDK.
Symantec Antivirus is the one I ran into
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
It's the institutional stuff. People who could only program in Java rightfully couldn't get work, so they taught CS courses. Now people with only CS training and no actual experience tend to love Java because it's a bit more usable than c/c++ (the only things they know.) In turn major industries with no actual business drive (e.g. utilities mostly) run on Java and consider things like .NET "deprecated" because of the legit claim of "evil Microsoft" being just enough to get their incompetent CS hires the ammo they need to make the claim, and deride non-CS majors (e.g. those that don't waste time with Java) as unskilled as some form of retribution for their own inability to learn new things.
There's absolutely no logical reason for something written in Java to require Oracle's implementation and that's something every Java developer knows.
. . . unless the developer works for Oracle, and the company policy is to use Oracle-only Java extensions for their products . . .
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
whats the python equivelent of mission control?
Even Oracle doesn't sue itself.... I think..
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This post is why you never go full retard. OpenJDK is owned and controlled by Oracle, nimrod.
How to kill one of the most popular programming languages in one easy step.
That'd be like the W3C updating their website on behalf of Microsoft so it only works under Internet Explorer.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Don't look at Java the language, but the JVM it runs in, a battle tested way to not just run services with high reliability and pretty serious performance, but outrageous tooling to figure out what went wrong if anything happens. It is not perfect for all scenarios, but Python's best use cases and Java's are pretty different.
Fine, then don't patch. At least that means our development environments will not suddenly stop working because of some stupid change like Android NDK 17 removing mips64 support.
Or flight recorder ...
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Static typing, Generics, run time/load time byte code instrumentation, jit compilation, picking from a handful (or with 3rd party VMs more) garbage collecting algorithms, Annotations I guess there are plenty more, but I'm not a Python expert.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Nimrod was a legendary great hunter.
Bugs Bunny called Elmer Fudd that with tremendous sarcasm.
It's not an insult.
And real programmers write in machine language.
#DeleteFacebook
Unless you need a lot of speed it doesn't matter. Plus if I wanted speed, I'd use C or C++ anyway.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Well, if anyone wonders why people use Python instead of Java, here is a pretty damn big reason.
Some people think cucumbers taste better than pickles. Python v Java is a decision only hobby programmers make. For any project even remotely big enough to consider paid support for their development/runtime environment, the answer would be use both and whatever else you need.
Java has been a "legacy language" for over 10 yrs.
Whenever Oracle gets involved, they kill lit off due to their corporate goals which are the opposite of what every client wants.
Just look at all the projects which have forked or been killed since Oracle acquired SunMicro.
I feel bad for the companies who haven't learned the following:
* Never give Oracle money for anything other than a DBMS.
* 95% of your enterprise DBMS don't need Oracle DBMS.
commercial support == subscription. if you do not need support you do not have to pay!
What a maroon.
*Still* negative function...
I seem to recall an issue I had once with javax.crypto stuff not working right with openjdk, and I needed the certs from oracle jdk. to do a secured socket connection.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
... of PLs 'up there' in terms of future-safety.
I can't shake the notion that Oracle is doing a long and slow succession of minor Java screwups that are slowly adding up. The massive hype and influx of VM languages has been over for a few years now (a phase JS is just about over with now too), Scala and now Kotlin seem very well positioned to take over the JavaVM space (I've had experts recommend to me that I skip Java alltogether and go straight to Kotlin) and, as far as I can tell, if Google and Jetbrains play their cards right, Kotlin will be the successor, WASM transpilers and V8 runtimes will come and then Oracle will be shown a big finger for their perpetual Java lock-in attempts.
I'm learning Java right now because it's the go-to PL at my college where I'm doing my BsC in Media CompSci (Media and Java? ... Yeah, I don't quite get it either ...), but it has by now lost all it's sexyness with me. That was different 20 years ago but that was also a time when people would call be crazy for recommending to learn JavaScript and if you told people that they would be buliding entire stacks and pipelines with it they would've called you crazy. Despite entier GUI apps already built with it. (Did you know the Photoshop is built with JS?).
Botton line: Stear clear of proprietary technology is my motto evers since Adobe f*cked up Flash/ActionScript big time. Oracle seems hell bent on rolling back the FOSSing of Java and they might even succeed. But not with me.
My 2 Eurocents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Kotlin.
Yes, because in python there is no such thing as commercial distributions.
Real programmers code in Assembly language.
Technicians code in machine language, using diodes, a wire cutter, and a soldering iron.
It was the gut feeling I had as soon as I had heard that they bought Sun instead of IBM.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I'm not aware of any JVM security holes. There was some old code from 20 years ago (called an Applet) that allowed Java code to be downloaded into a browser and executed, and that code (long since deprecated, unsupported, and removed) had lots of security holes.
In other recent news, Fred Brooks from IBM just announced that System/360 is GA!
I wrote Java code in 1996. It's still being used today, without change, and hasn't so much as needed a recompile (although it has been recompiled, because CI.)
When it comes to Java, there are a lot of things that an intelligent person (i.e. probably not you) could complain about, but this isn't one of them: Java's compatibility and portability has been outstanding .
Most of the large data warehousing and analytics software is written in Java. Same with message queues.
You're showing your paunch. Analytics in Java means 30% average worse performance than c++, hence 30% more data center costs. Data warehousing in Java, give me a break, write in a proper language and use real programmers, not the B team. Message queues in Java instead of Go? Already not a thing.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Generics exist because of static typing; there is no need for them as a language feature when you have dynamic typing.
Python has decorators which can do more or less the same things that annotations can.
Static typing and execution speed are the main differences that matter, in my opinion. Static typing can be an advantage or disadvantage, depending on what you're building. Recent versions of Python have optional type declarations that can be used for static code checking, but I haven't yet tried those in practice, so I don't know how useful they are in bridging the gap between static and dynamic typing.
Execution speed is usually much better (like a factor 4 to 10) in Java, although if you use a lot of library calls or I/O, the interpreter is not the deciding factor in the speed of a Python program and then it can run just as fast as Java.
They are killing It jobs by increasing costs. Businesses will respond by outsourcing to India their infrastructure to pay Oracle more money
They now only rent Oracle cloud, they refuse VMware motioning for PeopleSoft unless we pay 400% more plus additional core licensing.
When will this madness end? We need a erp competitor BAD
http://saveie6.com/
Static typing is preferable to developers who are control freaks. Not all of us are. Personally I don't mind it but I don't need my hand held on it either.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Did that answer the question? Did that answer anything? Now I'm hungry.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Or like W3C publishing DRM standards that only works for specific browsers approved by specific companies. You know like that thing that has already happened:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/...
For smaller shops, the price of "real programmers" exceeds the price of 30% more VPSes.
For smaller shops, the price of "real programmers" exceeds the price of 30% more VPSes.
For smaller shops, the stupidity of going with Java and thus losing competitive advantage is far more severe. Go, Python, Node.js, this is reality for small shops. Pretenders go the way of the dodo.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Current popular realistic alternatives to Java for back end server applications:
- Go
- Python
- Node.js
- Rust
Notably also used with success:
- Ruby
- Erlang
- Eiffel
- C++
I think, the first four are just clearly better new project choices than Java for reasons ranging from quick prototyping to developer availability to code quality (Rust). Nobody in their right mind would choose Java for user-facing software. Basically, there is no good reason to use Java for anything, unless forced to. (Looks sideways at idiot Google smart people.)
Somebody confused their mod points with an argument?
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Bouncycastle didn't offer the right/compatible crypto suite?
While I have a gut feeling we're getting away from the analogy, the fact is I'm so in agreement with your central point I don't care. Fuck the W3C.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Did you hit the reply to the wrong post, or are you just in the habit of pointing out things that are actually known to the person you're telling, and central to the point they're making?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
In 1998, yes. Since then? It's use case specific.
Anyway, how the fuck do you compile native machine code for a container running on a virtual machine on a hypervisor accessing software defined storage over a software based network?
Yeah, it's not being a control freak, it's recognising the real world limitations of the average developer.
In which case you stay the fuck away from it as a point of commercial principle. Great technology doesn't add value at those prices, let alone the hassle.
Don't buy Oracle.
I don't recall.... I just remember that openjdk didn't do what I needed out of the box, and I needed to download the oracle jdk just to get their certificates. I then copied their certificates to the right place for openjdk and used them with openjdk without issue for a while, but then when there was an update to openjdk, they stopped working, and I had to grab the latest oracle jdk again. When that happened, I just decided to not bother with openjdk at all after that.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Without static type checking you need much more unit tests.
With static type checking it depends what your product is, is it a library, you need unit tests, is it a whole application, you are better of with UI driven automated UATs that give, if possible, a 100% coverage rate over your code.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
No, I didn't. I've read it three times now, nowhere does I say that. For fucks sake, the word "commercial" appears only once, in a sentence that only an idiot would claim means I'm saying commercial users will pay.
No, it was just blatantly obvious from the fact I said that so many are "convinced that this means that commercial users of Java will now have to start paying". Given there was no other cases where I was describing a belief, there was no chance of it being misunderstood.
Next time read what you're replying to. And for fuck sake, doubling down and pretending it said what you pretended it said, to the point of making an easily verifiably false claim about the words I'd used, is really, really, dumb.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
As much shit as I have to take care of for them, they owe me. Applications with their own and vulnerable versions because their engineers can't write code that will survive a version change. This is really a PIA. From SAS to Netbackup to other things. All junk.
Maybe this will drive a stake through Java and kill it. Just as they've killed Solaris/SUN.
Same here, and one reason I ended up doing mostly C# rather than Java during the past decade or so.
Nonaggression works!
No, Java is the religion, Python is just one programming language among many.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'