Trump Officials Planning Escalation of US-China Tech Trade War (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The Trump administration is looking to widen its trade war with China by restricting Chinese access to U.S. technology, according to reports from the Wall Street Journal and Reuters. "The Treasury Department is crafting rules that would block firms with at least 25 percent Chinese ownership from buying companies involved in what the White House calls 'industrially significant technology,'" the Wall Street Journal says. A separate proposal would institute beefed-up export controls preventing Chinese companies from buying these technologies from U.S. firms. The policies could be announced as soon as this week, the Journal says. In the past, the Trump administration has blocked multiple attempts by Chinese companies to buy U.S. semiconductor firms and imposed a sweeping export ban on Chinese smartphone maker ZTE after ZTE was caught selling U.S. technology to Iran and North Korea -- though the administration recently lifted the ban.

Comments

I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

It remains to be seen who will bear the brunt of it.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

>It remains to be seen who will bear the brunt of it.

My asshole, apparently. My body is ready.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ultimately, the rest of the world is going to be very happy that Trump is working so hard to confine the recession to the United States.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

The analysis of which states are being hit hardest by Chinese tariffs make it very clear where China wants the hit to be. Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, South Carolina, Kentucky, etc.

Oil, gas, coal, auto, food - who do you think will hurt the most?

$8 billion of Texas exports fall under the first rounds of tariffs and $0.12 billion of New York's. Is that more clear?

The combined hit on the tiny little economies of Alabama and South Carolina beats the hits on the California and Washington mega economies. Maybe that helps make it clear.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Damned right -- just target the former CSA, it's those a-holes and their nationalist, racist policies that are pissing everyone around the world off. I just wish we could undo the reconciliation, jettison the former Confederate States and round all those KKK and Evangelical fuckwads up put them there and pay Mexican migrants workers to build a wall around them, with no "big beautiful door" They have no place in our Society, the have no respect for Democracy, Liberty or Equality and they march around waving the Confederate and Nazi flags of the enemies of the USA. Fuck 'em

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Tablizer]

I smell a recession coming on. It remains to be seen who will bear the brunt of it.

Usually the 99%. The rich can afford to wait out storms, and even get richer from recessions by buying low and selling high: be it stocks, co's, or real-estate. Recession bargain-hunting is Warren Buffett's main financial weapon, and he's arguably the richest dude on the planet.

But even without trade-wars, we are statistically due for a recession based on the length of the current upturn. The fact the yield curve is inverting is yet another warning sign. Based on past yield curves, we got roughly 18 months until it "hits".

Trump may unfairly get the blame for a slump. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT defending his overall economic policy, but generally the sitting President's popularity is largely tied to the current economy, and it has been this way for more than 100 years.

Where he might have legitimate blame besides trade wars is the debt: the larger the debt, the smaller the possible stimulus when a slump hits. Even among Republicans, giving personal tax-cuts to the rich in exchange for debt is not popular. (The corporate tax-cuts and middle-class tax-cuts score better with Republicans. They believe US corporate tax-rates were higher than other nations'. Whether that was true is debatable.)

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[NicknameUnavailable]

It remains to be seen who will bear the brunt of it.

It doesn't remain to be seen. It will be your mom, just like every other night.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[AvitarX]

If they were being strategic, they'd try to hit the rust belt, democratic strong holds that went for the protectionism hoping for some type of change.

Maybe that's round two though, or maybe they want Trump in power, as it helps them exery power in Asia.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[jriding]

Sooo. China is applying tariffs intelligently. Their tariffs directly hit and hurt Trumps main voting base. To maximize the pressure on him to remove the tariffs.
Some how is this is the liberals doing?

 

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

paranoia strikes deep

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[youngone]

Get out of here with your well-argued and well-reasoned discussion.

Like everyone else, I come here for CAPITAL-laced flamewars.
Oh; and, bad: punctuation,

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

So what exactly does New York make. I mean how does New York get to be soo rich. My guess is that they somehow own the companies that are actually making things in places like Alabama and South Carolina. Unless they somehow have found a way to sell smug condescending attitudes

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[ShanghaiBill]

Some how is this is the liberals doing?

At least in America, protectionism is popular with the left, and much less so with conservatives.

Trumpism is a blend of the stupidest policies from both left and right.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Couldn't agree with you more

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

At least in America, protectionism is popular with the left, and much less so with conservatives.

Somebody forgets their history lessons. Try looking up who passed the first Tariff Act, the Embargo Act, the American System, the Civil War Tariffs and the policies of McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt and Hoover.

Ironically, the biggest supporters of free trade were the Big Cotton slaveowners.

Trumpism is a blend of the stupidest policies from both left and right.

You might consider that there is no left or right.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[ShanghaiBill]

Ironically, the biggest supporters of free trade were the Big Cotton slaveowners.

Why is that ironic? Are you implying that the slave owners were progressive liberals?

You might consider that there is no left or right.

You might consider that, as the centuries go by, parties realign and change constituencies.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot has descended to russian trolls arguing with other russian trolls. FFS.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is that ironic? Are you implying that the slave owners were progressive liberals?

No, I was pointing out the irony of support for "free trade" being combined with those who interests were driven by the way they profited from the exploitation of human beings.

I wouldn't even see how you got that implication except I believe you were misled by an existing fault in cognition (quickly demonstrated by one proponent of it), that you mistakenly applied to somebody else who was chiding you on your own believed ignorance regarding the issue of a perspective on American protectionism throughout history.

You might have paid more attention to the examples I gave. I wouldn't say they were exhaustive, but well, you aren't paying me by the word. So why bring up Grover Cleveland?

You might consider that, as the centuries go by, parties realign and change constituencies.

Yes, and? What does that address as to what I said? Not much, except repeating the same problem.

Instead of me, perhaps you'll want to tell that to ArmoredDragon, who still wants to rail at the Democrats who have been dead for over a century.

He doesn't realize something, that that is a revealing tell of his own biased historical narrative.

Even after having it pointed out to him dozens of times. Feel free to waste your time with him yourself if you want, but I actually hope you realize your own errors first. I consider that more fruitful.

However, it is quite amusing to me that somebody else I'm familiar with their own gross errors on their knowledge of history is repeating the ones you want to rail against.

Reply to him if you want to joust with somebody with those mistaken beliefs.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but your protests of your supposed political independence ring false. You've got too much of a history of bias and partisanship to be believed. Just look at your first reply, and your second.

If you were honest about your dogmatic affiliation, at least you would be admitting something believable.

Instead, by trying such a faulty claim to give yourself a veneer of credibility, you do more to make yourself unconvincing to people who realize your bullshit.

Try refactoring your presentation with this in mind.

Meanwhile, as I pointed out, there is more to understanding the history of protectionism in America than the oversimplified associations repeated by such as yourself and ShanghaiBill.

Try learning that. C'mon, it shouldn't be hard.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

What does New York make? You might want to read this and learn that while finance is huge, there are many manufacturing workers in the Big Apple.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that all you have? You've been informed of the faults in this approach before.

You should really abandon it, especially when the current Republican president is drawing heavily from the wellspring of Jacksonian populism.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read Business Insider's article, you'll see that the analyses use data concerning ports of origin. So, you have to extend the information to the areas serviced by the ports.

New York is a massive port for business interests throughout the Northeast. The port of New York and New Jersey is the 3rd ranked port in the US. So, New York's data essentially just says that the Northeast in general barely got hit.

California ports in LA and Long Beach are #1 and #2 serving much of the SW US and combined didn't sustain the impact that Houston did with their port ranked #7.

Louisiana's $6 billion of targeted exports were also likely products from throughout the bread belt that were shipped there by train.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

the democrats will, like usual.

the republicans trash the country and economy.

that gets democrats voted in.

democrats fix the shit but also get the blame, because (shocker) they had to 'raise' taxes on the wealthy to do it (never mind the fact it was tax cuts targeting *those* that cause the mess usually).

those wealthy fucks smear the democrats while funding and bribing the republicans...

the republicans get back in power, make good on their under-the-table deals that got them their funding, and fuck shit up again.

rinse and repeat.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because farmers never got a handout...

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[tsa]

The EU does the same thing.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[tsa]

Trump may unfairly get the blame for the slump but he is the one who tells everybody he sees that he singlehandedly made the economy boom. He did nothing of the sort, in fact he made it boom slower and less, so he deserves the blame for the slump.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the whole, the US is easily one of the most diverse, least racist, and most welcoming countries on the planet.

You have either never been to the US or never left it.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Zorpheus]

Isn't it ridiculous to split politics in only two world views, having only two parties?

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ironically, the biggest supporters of free trade were the Big Cotton slaveowners."

Right, the Democrats.

Correct, the right-wingers. Until the 20th century the Democratic Party was the right-wing conservative party. Left-wing liberals favoured the Republican Party.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[gtall]

And yet, Conservatives (sic) in Congress still have no balls, even the women.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

My mom died 5 years ago.

"What is the penalty for necrophilia in Skyrim?"

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, Rich American, Rich Russian , or Rich Chinese What difference does it make to me ? Either way they cut my pay and make my working conditions worse just to funnel more money to themseleves.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thereâ(TM)s a great book about what the secession would look like - the National Football Championship would be played on an aircraft carrier (neutral ground). Personally, I think the Southern Paradise would, within 20 years tops, dissolve into a failed narcoterrorist state run by Russian and Chinese mobs.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Peter P Peters]

At least in America, protectionism is popular with the left, and much less so with conservatives.

Left, right, liberal and conservative are meaningless in America. Democrats and Republicans have a mish-mash of policy that seems to only exist to satiate their need for power than actually improve the outcomes for the people.
United we stand, divided we fall. Ask yourself which direction we are going in and if you choose to continue down that path....

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Peter P Peters]

The rich can afford to wait out storms, and even get richer from recessions by buying low and selling high: be it stocks, co's, or real-estate. Recession bargain-hunting is Warren Buffett's main financial weapon, and he's arguably the richest dude on the planet.

Trump himself said the same thing back in 80's when discussing his wealth. NYC in the 70's was in a slump, and he knew that slumps are the best time to buy.
It could be that he might even engineer a recession in order to get some more bargains. He only cares about himself so anything is possible.

Trump may unfairly get the blame for a slump.

It's only unfair if it happens in his first 1-2 years like poor old Obama who inherited the country one of the worst positions in a decades. After that it's all you. You are the boss, you take responsibility.
FWIW, Australia with a mix of conservative and liberal leadership is currently into it's 26th year without a recession, the Dutch managed the same thing until the GFC screwed things up. So if Trump can't make the good times last a piddly 8 years he deserves blame.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the whole, the US is easily one of the most diverse, least racist, and most welcoming countries on the planet.

If you're of white European descent....

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[aquacrayfish]

More ridiculous, I think, to apply labels without historical perspective.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[steveb3210]

The Democrats of the 1800s

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Type44Q]

Yup, Russian trolls all the way down...

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Dzimas]

The US economy will slip into recession this summer, and Trump will angrily state that it's because the rest of the world is ganging up on the USA after 8 years of weak government under Obama. He'll use Twitter to single out and humiliate opposing politicians - preferably female - and use anger and hatred to ride easily into a second term in office.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

MAGA!

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks Obama

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[AvitarX]

They hit his safe base.

They hit areas that may not even cause a house seat to flip if it has a big swing.

Either they strategically don't want to alter the balance of US politics (picking safe red areas), or they are sending a warning, and the next round will matter to Trump.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

A bit of an oversimplified perspective, as the Democratic party went through several phases and today's perspectives would best note the differences in the positions of the past.

But that's what I told ShanghaiBill already.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[kellymcdonald78]

I'm surprised that Trump doesn't understand how these things work, this is literally first year global business and trade strategy. So much for the quality of a Wharton education. Its simple, go and look for vulnerable Republican politicians, districts that could easily flip, look at the key industries in those districts and target those. This either forces those politicians to push back against their own party, or the district goes to the Democrats diluting Trumps ability to maintain these tariffs. This is why you're seeing tariffs on such odd things like felt markers and motorcycles and bourbon. As per usual the Trump administration is being outplayed by people who actually know this stuff

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's possible to think that tariffs used intelligently are okay, while tariffs scattershot around the globe on a whim are stupid.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got too much of a history of bias and partisanship to be believed.

If you have to attack his reputation or past debates instead of the substance of his argument, you're probably wrong and definitely a jackass. Seriously bad form there.

there is more to understanding the history of protectionism in America than the oversimplified associations repeated by such as yourself and ShanghaiBill.

He just indicated that protectionism is not strictly a single-party affair and identified a modern progressive/left/Democrat who supports it, as well as the fact that this person was railroaded in favor of a trade globalist. He seems to grasp the contemporary political landscape to some degree.

Try learning that. C'mon, it shouldn't be hard.

And with a pointless insult, you show why you are really here. To attack the other tribe.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[shilly]

It's amazing to think there are people who actually believe this type of crap.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's right. And Karl Rove will be indicted in 24 business hours.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

I smell a commie asshole..

I say build a wall around new england and put all you commie ass holes there. So you stop using our constitution as toilet paper.
I mean its not like you have ever actually read it.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[WindBourne]

Really? Which nation is more diverse with less racism?

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[painandgreed]

I'm surprised that Trump doesn't understand how these things work, this is literally first year global business and trade strategy.

I'd be really surprised if he did.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

> where China wants the hit to be

I'm very sure the /. moderation system is giving mod pts to the less intelligence of people who think that China is the party responsible for the tariffs. Seeing +4 gems like this is hilarious.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[khandom08]

...it starts when you're always afraid....

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Tablizer]

After that it's all you. You are the boss, you take responsibility.

In practice a President has only a limited effect on the economy, at least in the short term. About the only thing they can do having an immediate impact is promoting and signing a stimulus. (The recent tax-cuts are a stimulus of sorts, arguably a poorly-timed stimulus, per debt and the usual cycles.)

If the recent trade-wars trigger a crash, one could argue we were near the tipping point anyhow. It's an "interesting" economic experiment.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The EU directive to store EU citizen data on servers located in Europe to prevent the evil NSA from having access to the data."

This is just ridiculous. The GDPR is written to regulate corporations, not government agencies.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[quantaman]

But even without trade-wars, we are statistically due for a recession based on the length of the current upturn. The fact the yield curve is inverting is yet another warning sign. Based on past yield curves, we got roughly 18 months until it "hits".

Trump may unfairly get the blame for a slump. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT defending his overall economic policy, but generally the sitting President's popularity is largely tied to the current economy, and it has been this way for more than 100 years.

There's a relationship, but it's pretty fuzzy when the government is divided. Who gets the credit/blame for the economy? The President who runs the administration or the Congress who passes budgets? Still I think it matters, government need to be willing to spend to keep things going in a recession, and when things are good they need to cut back to slow down the economy (and cut deficits). There's still other things driving the economy, but their actions do matter.

I think the Bush tax cuts were a disaster that exacerbated the last recession. They overheated an already hot economy and took away a lot of opportunity to stimulate the economy when it did crash. I think this last round of tax cuts were even worse, how are you going to pass stimulus when you're already running massive deficits?

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

actually that is happening - the retaliatory agricultural tariffs are meant to specifically hit middle American farmers at trump's base - the Chinese aren't stupid no matter how many times trump officials tell you in interviews.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think we have at least another year before it starts. The tax break for the corporations and rich has pushed it out a bit.

But, my oh my, is it going to be bad. Our economy is still red hot right now, yet we are running nearly a $1 trillion per year deficit and are already in debt to the tune of roughly $21 trillion. We won't have the money to be able to manage a recession as we have in the past and, since we've made enemies with the entire world, no one will lend it to us. That along with the financial and other deregulation "accomplished" over the last year means we will likely witness a LOT of failures, including banks. And, that makes it very likely it will be a depression, not just a recession -- potentially a very serious one.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[WindBourne]

More so, when there is little difference in their actions.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese economy is very fragile. They are based on an export model. There are many places where we can put pressure on the Chinese economy and make them back down. China needs to stop the stealing of American IP and China needs to stop the militarization of the South China Sea. In this eye-ball-to-eyeball thing China will blink first. China does not manufacture anything that America cannot manufacture here at home.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have to attack his reputation or past debates instead of the substance of his argument, you're probably wrong and definitely a jackass. Seriously bad form there.

Bad form to address your own claims? ArmoredDragon, you said this of your own accord:

And no, I'm not a republican, or right wing, or anything else.

Putting yourself up for debate is your own choice, don't think people won't react to it.

They will, and they will challenge you on it.

You put your past history up, so your hypocrisy is only becoming more odious.

Not that I had to do it, but you brought it up, so I made the choice to rebut it.

He just indicated that protectionism is not strictly a single-party affair and identified a modern progressive/left/Democrat who supports it, as well as the fact that this person was railroaded in favor of a trade globalist. He seems to grasp the contemporary political landscape to some degree.

No, ArmoredDragon, you don't grasp that.
Otherwise you would have demonstrated a bipartisan approach to your understanding contemporary affairs rather than uselessly claiming Bernie Sanders was railroaded and pretending your claims of non-partisanship didn't even exist.

And with a pointless insult, you show why you are really here. To attack the other tribe.

Sorry ArmoredDragon, but you're the one concerned about "tribes" while I'm pointing out your individual faults.

It really should not be so hard for you.

But then, you can't even remember your own words. Even when they're in this thread chain. Funny that.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not me, I'm a Norwegian troll.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Australia, for instance?

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[farble1670]

Maybe that helps make it clear.

Okay so let me get this straight. Trump crafted the tariffs to hit states where his approval is high like Texas, but go easy on states that he proclaims to hate like California.

WTF are you saying? This is some leftist plot, except somehow the leftists tricked Trump into doing their bidding?

... food - who do you think will hurt the most?

Food? Um, everyone that eats food?

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[farble1670]

It's amazing to think there are people who actually believe this type of crap.

There isn't. You read the posts of a Russian troll or trolls that're just trying to rattle the American beehive.

See how they are all AC? Anyone that posts AC is either a bought and paid for troll, or they feel so weakly about their convictions that they can't even attach a mostly-anonymous pseudonym to their posts. Either way ignore them and mod into oblivion.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

Australia, NewZealand, Canada, UK.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

That comes from an assumption that the US is the only China's trade partner. That assumption is obviously wrong. Do you think in trade war against the US, China won't cooperate with other regions/nations? The US administration seems quite busy angering many nations.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[ebvwfbw]

Trump may unfairly get the blame for the slump but he is the one who tells everybody he sees that he singlehandedly made the economy boom. He did nothing of the sort, in fact he made it boom slower and less, so he deserves the blame for the slump.

What are you smoking. Must be something. Obama couldn't get the economy to do anything, in fact if you read his book he wanted to destroy it so the US would be just another country. Nothing special. Before you even think about mod me down, read his book and learn. Truth hurts sometimes.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[tsa]

The US is just another country, and certainly not the best country in the world, despite what many Americans think.
Obama did not want to 'destroy the economy.' Why the hell would any politician want that?
And lastly, Obama reigned during a recesssion. Because economy is a global thing nowadays, politics have only a very small influence on their country's economy, and it's much easier for politicians to make their country's economy worse than to improve it.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[ebvwfbw]

He was a politician like no other. An activist filled with hate. He despised America. So do most Democrats.
Try reading it - http://library.aceondo.net/ebo...
Then you'll understand what "fundamentally change America" is all about. Suspicious of that one? Chose another site. Go ahead. If you read it you'll be shaking your head and say WTF? We elected him. He'd make probably the best used car salesman imaginable.

BTW, The US is not just another country. Despite what you think. We're #1 GDP, we are the only super power in the world. The US influences the world throughout. Clearly. I have to wonder if you live in a cave or something? No other country has sent a man to the moon. Remember that? Do you see Germany or France dealing with a guy like Kim Jung Un? I'm amazed that you would think that. I've hosted kids from Germany, France, Argentina. Every one of them said they would *LOVE* to be an American if they had half a chance.

I'll ask you the same thing I've asked a lot of people. If I could set time back to before you were born and I could place you anywhere in the world, born to any race in the world, where would it be and what would you be? You can't change the date of your birth. In my case it's a no brainer. USA. I'd not even care which race. I could deal with that part. In fact being black is a hell of an advantage. As long as I can keep my IQ. Being any race and being stupid is no fun.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Peter P Peters]

In practice a President has only a limited effect on the economy, at least in the short term.

Only if he has an uncooperative Congress and Senate which a lot of Presidents still a manage to do ok with. If you control Executive, AG, Supreme Court and Congress and Senate and you still blow everything up, it is all you.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[tsa]

There's a lot about America to despise. Its politics, its lack of social security, its racism, its colonialism... You say America influences the world throughout. Indeed it does, and it would be great if it did that a great deal less, together with its allies (some European countries, including mine, are also to blame for the total mess the Middle East is right now).
Obama did his best to at least change some of the US's problems. He was the best president you had in a very long time, and many Americans didn't even realize it. And you replaced him with a bad second hand car salesman, a con man who doesn't think for himself, often changes his opinion in the middle of a sentence and is now working hard to plunge the world into the next recession. Ok, he managed to talk to Kim which is indeed a great achievement, but he achieved nothing beyond that managed to make even that worse by tweeting how dangerous NK still is. Good job!
Of course the US also has good things. Beautiful countryside, interesting cities, friendly people... And despite Trump they're doing a better job at reducing CO2 exhaust than my country. I have some friends who are happily living there. And putting a man on the moon and returning him safely back to Earth was in my opinion still the coolest thing mankind has ever done.
But no, I wouldn't like to be born in the US. I am very happy to be a European. Of course there are many things wrong here too but no place on this planet is all good for everyone.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

See how they are all AC? Anyone that posts AC is either a bought and paid for troll, or they feel so weakly about their convictions that they can't even attach a mostly-anonymous pseudonym to their posts. Either way ignore them and mod into oblivion.

I disagree. I enjoy replying to tangents in the discussions. Sometimes you can trace it back to a 2nd or 3rd level of off-topicness. I tend to enjoy playing devil's advocate, but if I can't say anything factual, logical, or at least thought-provoking then I don't bother. Trolling just to get people's emotions to flare up doesn't excite or interest me, and certainly nobody pays me to post.

My favorite part of Slashdot is that "comments owned by the poster" aren't edited, censored, deleted... Well, sometimes they screw up and the front page won't load all day. It happens to the best of us. Getting a default score of 0 means most casual readers won't see what I write and that's ok. Those who seek shall find. I find that browsing at +2 gives you fairly polarized, brief, and boring discussions anyway.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

He only cares about himself so anything is possible.

This statement is true for pretty much every politician that ever got re-elected. You just don't see honest people of integrity in politics because back-stabbing sharks will win every time.

When people make claims that their team is better than the other team, by using arguments based on how good they are at being a politicians, it's kind of like winning the game by proving that you are such a bad sport you don't deserve to be allowed to play.

This is what's wrong with society. It's a relatively new problem that we've been aware of since about the time recorded history became a thing.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't understand the game plan. They pay for everything from here out with cuts to your social security.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[bluegutang]

Australia has gone 26 years without a recession because their economy is based on mining iron and coal for sale to China. The more China's economy goes up, the more Australia's does. In the last 26 years Australia's exports have gone up by 600%, so of course the economy has gone up.

https://tradingeconomics.com/a...

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[farble1670]

Trolling just to get people's emotions to flare up doesn't excite or interest me, and certainly nobody pays me to post.

I should not have spoken in absolutes. I'm sure there are exceptions. You did not however say anything about why you feel the need to post as AC.

How are people supposed to trust you actually believe in what you are saying if you can't even put a pseudonym next to your post? You have to admit it makes it kind of hard to take you seriously.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Highdude702]

You have almost a valid point, but my opinion is why does it matter WHO says it. Its what was said that should be looked at.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[ArmoredDragon]

I honestly couldn't care less about what you think of my political affiliations (or lack thereof.) The fact is, the Democratic party's superdelegate system quickly becomes one sided when the party elite make a decision. You know, good and well, that the party elite decided that they wanted a female president, no matter what her problems were. So guess where 100% of the superdelegate votes went? While I'm no fan of Bernie, I can plainly see what happened there.

And I think that if I was partisan towards Republicans, I'd very much have opposite views to many that I espouse often:

- I'm strongly pro net neutrality
- I'm strongly pro cannabis legalization
- I'm strongly against almost everything Trump has done (though some things were good, like making our corporate income tax rates more inline with the rest of the first world nations)

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[ArmoredDragon]

I didn't post that, ass.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[ArmoredDragon]

It was a well timed joke. Chees, fucking lighten up, asshole.

Re: I smell a recession coming on.

[ArmoredDragon]

That was the whole point. That, and he opened himself up to it, so I felt it necessary to quip (i.e., it was a well timed joke, mainly a slight against the person I replied to.)

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Peter P Peters]

Australia has gone 26 years without a recession because their economy is based on mining iron and coal for sale to China.

And did that happen because of magic? Or did someone in charge recognise the changing global landscape and respond to it?
If is was magic, then when the magic ran out , surely the growth should have too? Or maybe smart people used smart policy to stay ahead of the game?

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[bluegutang]

The "magic" never ended! Australia's exports are about 20% higher in 2018 than 2016, see the graph in my previous comment.

Investment has gone down (the graph in your link). But that is a sign that exports are stabilizing, not decreasing. Once a factory has been built, it can keep producing. In a boom, investment approximates not the amount of production, but the derivative of the amount of production.

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Peter P Peters]

The "magic" never ended! .

It's all magic. The next US economic rise or fall will be due to magic. Because apparently that is the how success or failure happens...

Re:I smell a recession coming on.

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of horeshit. He is absolutely responsible for the economy boom. It literally started going apeshit the day he won the vote.

Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

But more importantly, Fuck you if you voted for him.

You are the problem. Trump is the symptom.

Re: Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

So who did you vote for?

Re:Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

What is wrong with protecting US jobs?

Why is it a good thing to transfer all of our technology to the Chinese Communist Party?

How is the average non-college educated US citizen better off after 20 years of globalism?

Try to think bigger than the price of your iPad.

Re:Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

And fuck all the people that voted for Clinton, thus handing the presidency to Trump! In fact fuck anybody that votes for democrat/republicans, looking for handouts and phony tax cuts!

Re: Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod this up +5!

Re:Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

It so adorable that you believe that bullshit!

Here's one example of Trump's winning:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harley-davidson-moving-some-operations-overseas-blaming-tariffs/

It's gullible twits like you who ruin in for the adults in the room.

Re:Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not protecting jobs. Metal transformation jobs are now leaving: Harley Davidson moving manufacturing, Mid Continent Nail Corporation shutting down and dozens more to come. Don't worry, the rest of the world is more than happy about it! We'll gladly take your jobs!

Re: Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

It is all temporary, the robots are coming soon enough. Then manufacturing will be back in full force, with a small team of people maintaining the robots.

Re:Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

More importantly, fuck all the people who say fuck you about anything. Fuck you!

Re:Fuck Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

The longer time goes by with Trump in office the more democrats show their true colors of intolerance and hate. Would gladly vote Trump again.

Re:Fuck Trump

[khandom08]

More importantly, fuck all the people who say fuck you about anything. Fuck you!

Better stop or you'll go blind.

Good, fuck China!

[Anonymous Coward]

They're stealing all our secrets! Don't block Japan though, I need the anime. I NEED IT

Re:Good, fuck China!

[Anonymous Coward]

wutz aneem?

Let's go

[Anonymous Coward]

Until manufacturing returns, this is going to be the story of the next 30 years.

Re:Let's go

[Anonymous Coward]

Dream on. Our manufacturing base was created by the spoils of WWII. Another such war that puts so many others in debt to us and delivers so much technology and so many scientists to our doorstep will never happen.

Re:Let's go

[Anonymous Coward]

Not with that attitude!

Re:Let's go

[Anonymous Coward]

Russians arguing with Russians.

FUCK off Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sick and tired of governments fucking around with with business of private individuals and entities. It's nobody else's business what two private parties do. I don't care if it's in someones bedroom or between companies of two different countries. This idea that a government owns you is bull shit. I don't care if we are talking the EU and GDPR or Trump and his stupid trade war. Neither the EU nor the US nor China should be interfering in the private affairs of others. I own me. Not someone else. I do not wish to be a slave just because some elite(s) have a financial interest in some action and have convinced a percentage of the population to go along (or otherwise do without the populations consent). No person has any right to to intervene in another business or affairs who isn't hurting anyone. Violence (government action) is never justified on the basis of social or political objectives where there is otherwise no violence by the interests of whom they are interfering.

Re:FUCK off Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

the swansong of the narcissist. also the problem of western society.

Re:FUCK off Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

You will be made to care.

Re:FUCK off Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sick and tired of people like you not thinking through the role of a government.

The role of the government is to protect the commons. That means it is there job to protect all the "me"s not just you. You may be ok with the factory next door polluting the air and water. There however literarily millions of "me"s that aren't ok with it. Many of those millions don't have enough information, education or time to make an informed decision about the pollution.

For example the GPDR in the EU. It is clearly designed to give millions of "me" ownership over themselves regardless of what you personally want. If you are making statements like "I own me" and disparaging the GPDR then you are clearly someone who could use some protecting. i.e. You are ad an idiot who can't be trusted to make informed decisions.

You say that violence is not justified where there is no violence. When you move into a new neighborhood and are informed that you only have the choice of a single internet provider, is that not violence? If local businesses refuse you because you are gay or a minority, is that not violence? At the end of the daym you should have learned in civics class that the government( in theory) has a monopoly on violence and can use it to protect the commons as needed.

 

Re: FUCK off Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

So we should sell your daughter? Who will stop it?

Re:FUCK off Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, idiot.

Re:FUCK off Trump

[gtall]

But it is government's business what the business two private parties do. The SEC (before it was defanged by Bush) was supposed to right shotgun over Wall Street. They didn't and the Great Recession ensued. Your friendly neighborhood drug company would gladly sell you bags of doxie dropping claiming they'll cure what ails you...were it not for the FDA telling them they cannot. You airlines would like to apply cost benefit analysis to plane crashes, i.e., how many a year before it hits our bottom line, were it not for the FAA and NTSB. The EPA, before becoming a tool of industry in the current alleged administration is supposed to keep your drinking water safe (among other things). Now we can look forward to, "Well, it only killed 10 poor suckers...they shouldn't have drank the water."

Re:FUCK off Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the primary role of government is economic regulation - everything else stems from that, directly and indirectly.

(Government started being necessary the more people that required food around a farm, that were no longer directly working on or for it - though exactly what the ratio is, I'm not sure - long before it became a city, though, which was the main thing such government and regulation enabled. (Most early governments were religious in nature, and used that to enforce such regulations (hence why religions are about ostracising those who don't follow their rules) that ended up creating the city-state, and the foundations of civilization. What happens when you have a majority of people who no longer need to spend all their time getting/hunting/gathering/growing their own food...? Civilization is what happens... (Even if large amounts of people no longer truly understand this, and are therefore being punished for it...)

Re:FUCK off Trump

[Anonymous Coward]

When they do away with personal income tax, let me know. Until then TARIFFs, TARIFFs, TARIFFS!

Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[rmdingler]

Protectionist trade policy is the knee-jerk reaction of the weak. Retaliation by not just the Chinese, but America's traditional allies in Europe, Canada, and Mexico will cost US jobs, not create them.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[Anonymous Coward]

Please explain.

The US economy was built on protectionist trade policy right up until WWII. It built the country.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[hey!]

Well, I'd be open to at least hearing a rational argument in favor of pursuing more nationalist trade policies. But starting a trade war with everyone clearly isn't rational. It's the policy equivalent of a temper tantrum.

A trade war with China hurts US exports to 20% of the world's population. Starting a trade war with everyone but the US hurts US exports to 95% of the world's population.

Re: Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[Anonymous Coward]

You ignoramus, worldwide protectionist policies CAUSED WW2.

Re: Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[ChoGGi]

I thought it was the war reparations from WW1?

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worse than that. I've seen temper tantrums work as a negotiating strategy, even if poorly. Pretending to be an irrational actor changes the attitude of rational actors around you and may get you something. But in this case, Trump's getting nothing out of it.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[The Cynical Critic]

If you look at the trade balances between the U.S and the countries/blocks Trump has so far threatened or actually started a trade war with you can see that they all have a trade imbalance in their favor. Thus, in the short term at least, as long as it doesn't escalate beyond sides putting putting tariffs on imports from each other the U.S has a significant advantage over the other parties as any tariffs they're going to be putting into place are going to be significantly more effective than equally heavy handed tariffs by other parties.

The problems come in when you start to think about the long term or escalation beyond just tariffs. American-produced goods will obviously end up disadvantaged in foreign markets when compared to competing products produced by companies from any other country, however the real danger is if this escalates beyond just tariffs. While American companies don't bring that much in terms of physical goods over from home, they do bring over a lot of intellectual property and keep a lot of money from the sales of non-US produced goods and services in the regions those products and services were sold in. Once countries and trading blocks start messing with this money and this intellectual property, then things are very much going to tip in favor of the other countries/blocks.

My personal feeling here is that Trump sees the trade imbalance and understands the much greater impact of trade tariffs imposed by himself than those imposed by other countries in response. He may also understand the long term hazards and the hazards of the situation escalating beyond just tariffs, but his end game seems to be to use the unsymmetrical impact of these tariffs as leverage in trade negotiations to achieve more favorable trade deals with these countries than currently existing agreements.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Harley Davidson, who was hit by the retaliation in Europe, has already confirmed that it will not increase pricing in the short term and will move production outside of the US long term.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/25/news/companies/harley-davidson-motorcycles-tariffs-trump/index.html

The whole trade war is just so ridiculous.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[jebrick]

I just do not get tired of winning

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[Peter P Peters]

If you look at the trade balances between the U.S and the countries/blocks Trump has so far threatened or actually started a trade war with you can see that they all have a trade imbalance in their favor.

But it doesn't work like that. Because you're talking millions of businesses that are all interdependent, when you turn the tap off they all suffer.
Global prosperity increased massively with global trade, the only result of closing that off if is a reduced overall economy. ie Nobody wins.
Remember Xi is there for life, he knows he can simply wait Trump out and allow him to squander the US's position in the world. The Chinese probably can't believe their luck. They will already have a strategy in place to drag this out for 6.5 more years ready to pounce once Trump leaves with the US in tatters.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[Anonymous Coward]

you can see that they all have a trade imbalance in their favor

So you make the same mistake as Trump. I have a similar trade imbalance with my grocery store. I buy more from them that they do from me. This is not a problem by itself. The people buying these good from China want them! It isn't rape.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL

For years a certain class of people have been arguing for allowing China to get away with this stuff... because THEY WERE MAKING MONEY at the expense of the US and its future.

Notice that Trump is imposing tariffs on countries that already impose high tariffs on the US. THEY are engaging in protectionism and Trump has been asking them to stop.

You idiots are all listening to propaganda - Freedom is slavery, We have always been at war with Eurasia.

You didn't hear reported in the media that Trump suggested at the G7 that we have a giant no tariff zone... which of course, Germany and France refused outright (Germany uses the EU tariffs to protect its manufacturing, France its farming)

For years you've been soothed by people with vested interests in funnelling money out of the US economy and into their pockets.

I REPEAT... Trump is applying tariffs to countries that are already punishing the US. You should ask yourself why you've been fed bullshit by the neo-liberal class for years, and why you believed it so readily despite the obvious counter evidence.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[apoc.famine]

If you look at the trade balances between the U.S and the countries/blocks Trump has so far threatened or actually started a trade war with you can see that they all have a trade imbalance in their favor.

A) That's false. We have a surplus with Canada. B)That only works if you engage in limited accounting. For one, ignoring services, especially financial investments, skews the overall perception of what value we're getting for the trade surplus. For another, If a US industry needs a product that is part of that trade surplus, we don't count the financial impact of that against the dollar value of the surplus.

Simply focusing on the straight dollar amount of the trade imbalance is an overly simplistic thing to do. It's far more complicated than that, which is why everyone who's name doesn't end with Trump is against this plan.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worse than that. I've seen temper tantrums work as a negotiating strategy, even if poorly. Pretending to be an irrational actor changes the attitude of rational actors around you and may get you something. But in this case, Trump's getting nothing out of it.

Who says he's pretending?

Re: Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[psycho12345]

Both, the protectionists policies took the reparations problem and made it MUCH worse.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum

[ebvwfbw]

He wouldn't do it if he wasn't sure he'd win. You're listening to what you're being told to think. Instead think. The man has holdings around the world. He knows all about trade and how these things work. He's actually a businessman instead of politicians that don't even know the difference between a million and a billion. Maybe you like the high Dairy tariff Canada has on the US? They've been unfairly hitting us for decades. We've been lied to big time, by both parties.

Re:Trump has cost me

[Freischutz]

Useless trade wars have cost me nearly $50K this week. CEOs are almost all universally bad at economics, especially if they have a degree in economics.

What an outrageous comment!!! I'll have you know that the current POTUS is one of the greatest and most stable business geniuses of all time.

Trade wars are good, and easy to win

[Anonymous Coward]

so much winning

But somehow the results won't be Trump's fault, of course. Those damn democrats!

Re:Trade wars are good, and easy to win

[Anonymous Coward]

You ever notice how Republicans are too fucking stupid to remember that every time their guys take office they fuck over the whole country for decades to come?

Re: Trade wars are good, and easy to win

[Anonymous Coward]

you mean criminally retarded evilness isnt good enough anymore?

About time

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should we give our competitive advantage and jobs to the Communist Party?
How exactly was globalism good for the average US Citizen? It was good for Bezos and Jobs and all the other tech robber barrons. It might have been good for some H1B visa holders. But, it wasn't good for the average American. We were much better off before NAFTA and China's entry into the WTO.

Re:About time

[Anonymous Coward]

It was good for Bezos and Jobs and all the other tech robber barrons.

I notice you don't want to blame the Waltons and Walmart for any of our country's ills. Not only did they help flood the market with cheap chinese crap for decades, they helped gut wages at the low end, shifted the cost of feeding their employees to the rest of us, while filling their own pockets. Now they hide in gated communities where they don't have to deal with results of their handiwork.

But sure, blame Bezos and Jobs. Amazon and Apple employ 10s of thousands of highly compensated employees who don't need "food stamps" in order to eat. Can you say the same for Walmart?

And Trump won't even pay Americans. His resorts bring in hundreds of foreign workers on temp visas because they'll work for even less than Americans. That's #MAGA for you.

(Not sure who the barrons are. Did you mean robber barons?)

Re:About time

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend you read Walton's autobiography. Driving down cost was inevitable through discount merchandising, and working with outside countries is absolutely *inevitable* so long as it is allowed. In other words don't blame the businessmen, blame the politicians who allowed the export of our manufacturing base without a thought of wealth disparity or national security.

FWIW Walton was a penny pincher but had excellent worker retention, good wages, stock options (first truck drivers became millionaires). Even today Walmart is offering education, etc. Paying them astronomically more will just be result in the cost being passed down to the consumer, and the first store that pays them lower wages will win out. Again, the solution government can increase minimum wage, but you can't blame the businesses. Businesses essentially find the state of lowest energy within a bounded system, and governments are responsible for defining those boundaries.

Protectionism is fine

[rsilvergun]

when you have an industry to protect. China has leverage because we've let them take over virtually all our manufacturing. We've kept a few of the heavy duty stuff in case we need to spin up for a war.

Thing is, Trump's base wants action and they want it now. Given that wages keep falling (inflation's 3%, wage growth's 2.5%, do the math) and 40% of Americans don't have $400 bucks in the bank I can't blame them.

This is what happens when you ignore a sizable portion of the country. They find somebody who'll listen. If you happen to be doing pretty well in this economy and don't want the boat rocked, well, tough shit. If you don't want desperate people destabilizing the world then you need to do something about their desperation. You'd think we'd have learned this from WWI and II.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[PopeRatzo]

This is what happens when you ignore a sizable portion of the country. They find somebody who'll listen.

Did you know that the average wages for someone in non-supervisory jobs has gone down under Trump? Have you seen the price of gasoline? Know anyone who works at the Harley-Davidson plant in Wisconsin (I do)?

The problem is that those people who were being "ignored" have now shot themselves in the foot and are starting to feel the fallout, as are we all. Maybe there's a good reason those people were being ignored, if their solution was to elect this jackoff.

Did you know that only 4% of US workers got a pay raise since the Republicans passed their tax bill 6 months ago? That's why we've got this whole hard-line immigration bullshit going on, because the biggest things Trump has done have been unpopular with real Americans, and all he can hope is that he can gin up enough White Extinction Anxiety to get the oxycontin-dosed disability-collecting racists to act as his human shields.

https://jamanetwork.com/journa...

Re:Protectionism is fine

[chill]

How are those Harley-Davidson people doing? I'm curious considering HD just announced they're going to move some manufacturing in Europe to avoid the tariffs.

That falls on the heels of their January announcement of closing a Kansas City, MO plant and consolidating work in York, PA. But overseas...they just opened plants in India and Brazil, with another opening in Thailand this year.

Any decent sized "American" company is a "global" company, but this President doesn't get that at all -- nor does his base.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[hwihyw]

Q: We are "protecting an industry" from whom exactly?

A: Other companies who can provide the same or better service for the same or better price.

Q: And how are we doing that?

A: By raising taxes so that the consumer has to pay more for products.

Q: Then we are not generating jobs or products, we're simply transferring wealth from one group (certain consumers) to another group (certain businesses and industries), right?

A: Exactly.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. The USA has a huge drug problem. Most of the drugs are coming from Mexico. The politicians and media are bought and paid for the Mexico, so they will not stop it.

When the British started selling Opium to the Chinese, the Chinese government at least tried to do something about it. Here in the USA we have law enforcement largely going after the victims of the drug trade vs the actual sellers.

The role of Police in America is to keep the price of drugs high so the drug dealers can live large. The role of the politicians in the USA is to sell out their countrymen to foreign powers. The role of the media in my country is to call anyone who objects to this situation a 'racist'

After being called a 'white biggot' 10 or 12 thousand times, the term 'biggot' looses some of it's potency.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[PopeRatzo]

Yes. The USA has a huge drug problem. Most of the drugs are coming from Mexico.

No, dumbshit. The opioid epidemic in the Trump states is home grown.

https://www.theguardian.com/us...

https://www.theguardian.com/us...

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you know that the average wages for someone in non-supervisory jobs has gone down under Trump?

Source please.

Have you seen the price of gasoline?

Gas price chart over presidencies
Spoiler alert: gas prices fluctuate quite a bit, and have not historically been tied to a president.

Know anyone who works at the Harley-Davidson plant in Wisconsin (I do)?

What's your point here - there are unintended consequences?
Nevermind the economy keeps outpacing estimates, unemployment is keep getting lower and hitting historical marks, business are investing a ton of money, etc.... LOOK AT HARLEY-DAVIDSON EVERYONE.
I dont like CNN, which is why I'm using them.

Did you know that only 4% of US workers got a pay raise since the Republicans passed their tax bill 6 months ago?

Source please.
Just curious - has your paycheck increased at all since the tax plan? Mine did. My co-workers' did (large financial institution). Friends' did. Family's did. Anecdotal though, of course.

the biggest things Trump has done have been unpopular with real Americans

Definition needed, please.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

He gets it, he just doesn't give a f*ck. He happily uses Chinese manufacturing for his merchandise, and he hires Chinese construction companies to build his golf courses overseas. He's a salesman that says anything to get what he wants, and he's a pretty good one.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

They might do better if they actually started building motorcycles or just come out and admit the truth and enter the tractor market.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you brain dead? Oh wait, you're a Trump supporter, that question is redundant.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Namarrgon]

US manufacturing output has nearly tripled since the 70s, so China's manufacturing has taken apparently hasn't harmed the local industry much at all.

US manufacturing jobs have declined sharply, however - and this is what Trump's base is concerned about. But since the local industry is quite healthy, blaming China for killing it is misguided - blame the rise of automation instead; output per worker has risen even faster than total output.

I certainly agree that those ex-workers need help, but those unskilled manufacturing jobs aren't coming back. It's just not economically viable to mass-produce things by hand anymore - you'll get heavily undercut in the world market by developing countries with cheaper labour. It's more effective to help those affected to move to different sectors instead; service jobs (which are booming), or reskilling them to other areas.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[PopeRatzo]

Source please.

Jesus, when are ACs going to learn better than to challenge me? Here is the source, from 9 days ago:

>"The average hourly wage paid to a key group of American workers has fallen from last year when accounting for inflation, as an economy that appears strong by several measures continues to fail to create bigger paychecks, the federal government said Tuesday.

For workers in "production and nonsupervisory" positions, the value of the average paycheck has actually declined in the past year. "

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...

Source please

There you go again. This is from 4 days ago:

"Trump and other Republicans claimed that giving corporations huge tax breaks would help workers, going so far as to guarantee them a $4,000 pay raise. Unfortunately, only 4% of American workers are getting any kind of payout tied to the corporate tax cuts."

https://augustafreepress.com/f...

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

I would say that it's stunning that a person can be as uninformed as you, but given who's in the White House, I fully expect it.

Go read some news -- real news, not State TV. Alternative facts are bad for you.

CAPTCHA: ruined

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump will eventually see that these ex-workers need help, and I actually think he will try to address it. Whereas the previous three administrations have completely ignored them.

As another poster mentioned, these ex-workers literally have nothing to lose under Trump anyway.

Will there be a few hits? Yes, but in the long run we will be headed in the right direction.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

You have a post out here and nobody's come along and told you fuck you yet? Ok. I will. Fuck you.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

They would move production to Europe to avoid the retaliatory tariffs the Europeans levied upon them, as likely Europe would exempt Harley-Davidson from the tariffs if they produced locally. Tariffs are taxes on imports collected in the importing country, causing the overall price of the product under tariff to rise.

Additionally, Harley-Davidson is presumably a major consumer of steel, so tariffs on steel within the US raise the price they have to pay for that steel. Raising the price of steel through tariffs helps local steel producers at the expense of local steel consumers.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

They are moving production of motorcycles destined for the EU (and some destined for the rest of the world, I think), into the EU itself, to work around the EU's _retaliatory_ tariffs.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Namarrgon]

They weren't ignored. And indeed, a lot of jobs were recovered after the GFC losses. But they've been declining steadily since 1980, so that's unlikely to change much soon.

As for "having nothing to lose", we've already seen how e.g. Trump's steel tariffs can actually damage local manufacturing by dramatically raising their costs, so I very much doubt that's true. The decline in those jobs might be slowed a little, but at the cost of making other sectors less competitive - and workers in construction and auto manufacturing are major parts of Trump's base too. And that's before we get into the impact of retaliatory tariffs on completely different sectors like farming.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Zorpheus]

Well. I am not really a Trump supporter, but his point is: A trade war will reduce both import and export. But since The USA is importing more than it is exporting, he thinks the country will win more than it loses in the long run.
This is why China can't keep raising tariffs matching the US. But the US makes a lot of money by investments, which is partly compensating the trade deficit with China, and more than compensating the one with Europe. Also China was the biggest buyer of American state bonds. And a lot of trade in the world is done in dollars, which forces people to accumulate dollars and is part of what allows the huge American deficit.
So the retaliations on Trump's trade war will soon have to target the financial sector.
I don't know if this will be good or bad for the US in the long run. It could shift the US economy away from making income through investments, which only goes to a few people, back to making income through production, which can benefit more people. It could also put the world into chaos, just making everyone lose. It could also be just a threat, trying to force others to make concessions. But I think both Europe and China don't respond too well to such threats. They would never give in, because it would mean that the US could enforce other things afterwards, without a limit.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[gtall]

I see, so American companies hollowed out the U.S. economy while everyone was down at Wally World stocking up on the cheap toilet paper. You want the White House to run the economy. See the Soviet Union and how well that worked out for them.

Re: Protectionism is fine

[chill]

Thanks. I did mean "from the US to Europe".

Re: Protectionism is fine

[chill]

I think part of what he forgets is that the United States, by dollars, is the largest exporter in the world. We may Imports a lot, but our economy is heavily dependent on exports as well.

While a lot of the trade around the world is conducted it in US dollars, that can easily be changed. Trade could be conducted in Euros without difficulty. We've already started to see some of that change in oil trading.

He also doesn't grasp the concept of soft power. The fact that everyone does trade in US dollars, and we'rr so interdependent, gives the United States a lot of leverage in places where we otherwise might not have it. Petro-dollar trading is one of those areas.

Trump seems to see trade as a zero sum game, and it isn't. The idea that there are other measures and other benefits to trade relationships besides simple cash value seems beyond him.

Re: Protectionism is fine

[Zorpheus]

Yes, and what I also don't get is, why does he start a trade war with everyone at once? Maybe the US would have had a chance if it started a trade war just with China. Probably or could have pulled others on its side on some aspects. But now it starts a trade war with everyone.
Everyone will just keep trading with each other, losing only a fraction of their total trade, allowing them to continue like before. The US on the other hand will lose trade with everyone, and will have to go through huge economic changes to compensate the lost trade, resulting in enormous costs.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, he did say "please".

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Peter P Peters]

China has leverage because we've let them take over virtually all our manufacturing.

Technology (cheap easy communication and transport) unleashed Globalisation and no amount of complaining will get that genie back in the bottle. The smart move is to deal with the new environment we are all in and try and make it work in your favour, the dumb move is to pretend you can wish the world back to the 1950's.
Trump is firmly in the latter camp, and it can't possibly work.

If you don't want desperate people destabilizing the world then you need to do something about their desperation.

Agree 100%

Re: Protectionism is fine

[Nidi62]

I think part of what he forgets is that the United States, by dollars, is the largest exporter in the world. We may Imports a lot, but our economy is heavily dependent on exports as well.

You have to remember though that a lot of US exports aren't commodity, consumer goods. They are high dollar items like heavy machinery, aircraft, farming equipment, cars, etc.

According to wikipedia, there are 46 passenger airlines (sidenote: calling your airline "Okay Airways" is probably not the best branding) in China. Almost every major city government in China has some kind of ownership stake in an airline. By 2025 it is estimated that there will be 4000 commercial aircraft operated by Chinese airlines as opposed to 1500 in 2010. A lot of those 2500 could be Boeing aircraft. A 737NG costs around $100 million currently. Even if they only buy 500 of them, that's $50 billion in orders. Trump gets us into a trade war with China, they slap a 25% tariff on that and it adds over $12 billion to the cost. So instead of buying 737s, those airlines wait a little bit, maybe lease some older aircraft, and by Chinese produced Comac 919s for half the price of the 737s.

We get into a trade war with China, the US loses in the short term and the long term

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump is a fuckwit. This is not opinion nor biased, it is FACT. Anything else is total bullshit, period.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

He's very skilled at telling half truths. Just scroll past and avoid the annoyance. It's too bad he receives positive moderation that he does, but this is a site that leans Progressive.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

this is a site that leans Progressive.

Yeah, we need more Regressives here.

Re:Protectionism is fine

[PopeRatzo]

Your citations are biased trash

It's the Chicago fucking Tribune, quoting numbers provided by the Trump administration.

Re: Protectionism is fine

[kellymcdonald78]

Or they buy A319's

Re: Protectionism is fine

[modecx]

They were planning on outsourcing production of bikes destined to parts outside the US, at least since they introduced the Street 500 and 700 series of water-cooled bikes, way back in 2013, at least. These were the bikes made in Kansa City (the plant closing) for the US market, and which basically flopped hard in the local market. For one, they were designed for people of typical Asian stature, or smaller Caucasian women. As a beginner bike, 6 foot tall men can't comfortably ride them.

These bikes are already being made in part in India, Brazil, and Thailand for the global market. It only makes sense to invest in production of their larger bikes for these extra-US markets, in whole or in part. The tariff thing only accelerated the attractiveness of this idea. So, it's a bit disingenuous to blame this all on Trump.

The big picture.

[Okian Warrior]

Protectionist trade policy is the knee-jerk reaction of the weak. Retaliation by not just the Chinese, but America's traditional allies in Europe, Canada, and Mexico will cost US jobs, not create them.

There were originally 6 good reasons for the tariffs:

1) Chinese manufacturers take our designs, make extras, and sell counterfeits as if they were original(*)
2) Chinese manufacturers steal our IP and trade secrets for other products
3) The Chinese violate licensing agreements (ie - hacked copies of software) and the government does nothing about it.
4) Chinese working in the US commit industrial espionage and send the information back to China
5) The Chinese government subsidizes certain industries so that they can sell goods under cost, driving industries from other countries out of business
6) (I forgot what the 6th big item was. Maybe allowing companies to do business with N. Korea?)

On #5 above, China has been subsidizing their steel production, pushing US foundries out of business. The US has only one foundry left that can make the steel plates needed for ships, so this is a national security risk. You can't make battleships without steel plates. See Canadian Aluminum subsidies.

Everyone who has taken Econ 101 will parrot the old saw "trade sanctions are bad", and everyone will wail and moan about how the sanctions have hurt *them* (so they must be bad - ya!).

China violates their trade agreements in every possible way, so much so that it would *almost* be better to not trade with China at all.

Note that for the first time in ever we have a businessman leading the country. This was not a capricious decision, it came from a long history of abuse. It's intended to fix the many and long-term existing problems, it's good for the majority of domestic businesses, and it was a campaign promise.

Take the long view.

(*) This has happened so frequently, it's a meme. Make your monitor or VCR or other electronic device in China, and see eBay flooded with counterfeit copies overnight. Does no one remember that?

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget that Boeing and other Big Corps have gleefully given their technology to China in exchange for short term gains.

China never should have received most favored nation trading status.

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically you are saying China is doing what the US does and to fix this we are relying on a NY conman owned by the Russians?

Lol. You my friend have a very narrow view of things.

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you seen the US Farm protectionist racket?

Re:The big picture.

[angel'o'sphere]

Does not matter if your points 1) to 6) are true or false.
US tariffs on Chinese companies/products change nothing on that ... go figure.

China violates their trade agreements in every possible way, so much so that it would *almost* be better to not trade with China at all.
Citation needed :D
What kind of trade agreements do you even have with China?

Re: The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't make battleships without steel plates.

Make battleships?

Mitt, quit your fucking bullshit, nobody with any knowledge of naval warfare gives a crap what the size of the US Navy was after WW1. Every surviving battleship is a museum, what really matters is the carrier groups and their air wing, the submarines and their cruise missiles and the widespread availability of satellite technology.

By even bringing it up, you demonstrate your inability to make a sound argument.

Much like how Trump complained that a brick facade wasn't painted. For the wrong restaurant. At least the Air Force managed to remind him that New Jersey was still in America. He might have forgotten.

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up Ivan

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn straight! And we're going to include Canada, Mexico, and Europe, too, because...China!

Re: The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

So gov is needed to protect you from Capitalism? Yet as long as you fuck over yourself you're in a better position? Mind boggles over the Lies.

Re: The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess what, Captain Autismo? You need steel plates for Aircraft Carriers too. While you were spewing pedantry out of your asshole, everyone with a properly developed brain understood Battleships to have been used in the general sense of Navy ships. I think I heard mummy calling, your tendies are done.

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

The long view is that all empires die* ...Roman, Spanish, French, English, and now USA.
*well the Chinese have lasted 400 years so far...

Re:The big picture.

[serviscope_minor]

On #5 above, China has been subsidizing their steel production, pushing US foundries out of business.

That's the big one, and it seems to be one f the Chinese government's strategies. I don't really see that tarriffs in such an area are a bad idea. Funny thing is David Cameron used it t odrum up anti-EU sentiment prior to justifying the Brexit referendum: evil EU won't allow us to support our steel industry with local tarriffs or government support. Of coure they won't it's supposed to be an EU wide thing, and guess who was the major dissenting voice for steel tarriffs?

Note that for the first time in ever we have a businessman leading the country. ...

A "businessman" with record of bankruptcy and inheriting vast amounts of real-eastate just prior to a massive boom.

No what you have is a TV personality with delusions of grandeur fueled by a lucky start in life.

Re:The big picture.

[AmiMoJo]

1) Chinese manufacturers take our designs, make extras, and sell counterfeits as if they were original(*)
2) Chinese manufacturers steal our IP and trade secrets for other products
3) The Chinese violate licensing agreements (ie - hacked copies of software) and the government does nothing about it.
4) Chinese working in the US commit industrial espionage and send the information back to China

How to trade tariffs fix any of that? At best they might make it harder to sell those products in the US, but not the rest of the world.

On the one hand, US companies want the cheapest possible manufacturing. On the other hand, they want extreme loyalty and security. And the solution to this predicament is apparently is apparently trade tariffs.

Seems like a bit of a non-sequitur.

How about Apple then? They make all their crap in China. It doesn't get counterfeited really - you get a few similar looking phones but none run iOS or have knock-off Apple CPUs in them or anything like that. And a lot of companies just resell OEM Chinese stuff anyway, and somehow do okay because people trust US brands to at least provide some support and warranty coverage.

Trade tariffs are the wrong tool.

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

Still better than an entitled grumpy old woman.

Re: The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, sorry, Okian Warrior, but the proper term to use in a generic sense is actually warships, informed and sensible people manage to use the word correctly and if intelligent, rather than vent and fume when their ignorance is demonstrated, correct themselves. They do not make faulty claims regarding the nature of the navy, but endeavor to provide an effective and meaningful criticism rather than just fallaciously rail about the number of ships.

Of course, since you have a history of such pedantry that you apply to others, you merely make your hypocrisy evident. So you compound the problem.

Especially by resorting to the recent disparaging retort of choice. Believe it or not, the manners of behavior on 4Chan are not effective.

Re:The big picture.

[dwater]

I suspect the Chinese position on #2 (and #4?) might be that the US IP laws are excessive and unfair (to society) and actually hurt the innovation and progress they were designed to promote.

Re:The big picture.

[angel'o'sphere]

It (Apple) doesn't get counterfeited really
It gets counterfeited. I saw an fake iPhone 5, backside with Apple logo, FC number, "designed in Cupertino" etc. in gold letters.
Starting it showed a typical iPhone screen with Safari and Mail etc. icons, but all the apps where Androids with replaced icons. Was funny.

Re:The big picture.

[AmiMoJo]

There are loads of fake Apple stores in China, but they sell genuine Apple phones. They are kinda funny, they have the standard Apple wooden tables and fake-titanium decor. I asked about it and they don't really regard them as fake as such, as in no-one mistakes them for actual Apple stores, it's just a kind of advertising or "trade dress" to differentiate them from the shops that sell other brands of phone.

Re:The big picture.

[shilly]

Note that for the first time in ever we have a businessman leading the country.

Here's the heart of the problem for you and a lot of your fellow travellers. You think Trump is a business man who is somehow representative of how business operates, who can bring the skills of business with him. But Trump runs a two-bit real estate operation. His business has none of the complexity of a Boeing, FedEx, Pfizer etc; his decision-making is a million miles from how decisions are made at actual MNCs. He's a dumbshit person's idea of what a businessman is. He's just been spending Pappy's bucks all these years, and not very well at that.

Re:The big picture.

[painandgreed]

1) Chinese manufacturers take our designs, make extras, and sell counterfeits as if they were original(*) 2) Chinese manufacturers steal our IP and trade secrets for other products 3) The Chinese violate licensing agreements (ie - hacked copies of software) and the government does nothing about it. 4) Chinese working in the US commit industrial espionage and send the information back to China

How to trade tariffs fix any of that?

Well, it doesn't. That is what TPP and the NAFTA renewal were supposed to do, create a group of singaturees to band together against Chinese counterfitting of IP. However, we dropped out of TPP and are not really interested in NAFTA anymore.

Re: The big picture.

[orlanz]

There is nothing that prevents our armed forces from buying USA steel only. Even if it means they pay extra. Even if it means they need to float the industry.

Oh wait, that's pretty much what they do today; before the tariffs. Pretty much every federally funded agency has directives to buy Made in USA. Even if it costs more. Heck the IT consulting firms aren't even allowed to have off shore teams working on certain projects at some agencies!

Even the states do this all the time. They only buy locally and set up the bidding requirements as such.

Also, the US domestically produced more steel and aluminum than the armed forces can ever buy. For that market there is actually over production.

If anything the tariffs hurt downstream US businesses and makes it more expensive for the tax payers when those same armed forces buy spoons, knives, belts, etc. Now they are using more money to prop up more businesses than before.

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

Moving any production/manufacturing to the US is a good idea, even if it isn't exported. Or even it were 100% automated and employed no one.

It's like living on a fixed income. If every month is in the red, you have to cut expenses. That's not government spending, that's trade. No more going to the movie theater or eating out. If you need to fix something in your house/apartment, you have to do it yourself (i.e. hire and train Americans, not import cheap migratory labor).

Trade imbalances are unsustainable. Eventually that bill is going to come due. We better be prepared to make deep cuts to trade if want to keep living.

Re:The big picture.

[Anonymous Coward]

The laws may be excessive, but I suspect the reason China has no interest in defending IP is because of the cost. There are countless tiny factories in China making everything under the sun, and the IP owners don't have the time to discover all of the violations. Even if the government can figure out a way to do it, they still need a good reason.

When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Streetlight]

For sometime China has been sending students to study at US and European universities, obtaining bachelors and higher degrees. Some have brought this expertise back to China and established world class university programs in STEM areas and now produce outstanding home grown graduates. Eventually, if not now, these folks will develop home grown technology which may be as good as that being developed in western universities and private corporations. Sure, it might be easier and cheaper to steal needed tech from elsewhere, but restrictions on exports may turn the tables resulting in China becoming a technology power house. How long will this take? Time will tell.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[rahvin112]

Why do you think that if we share our technology with China that the reverse would also occur and China would share the other direction? Your arguement is it may lock the US out not to share but assume they would share and some would consider it highly likely that they wouldn't.

Part of the problem and things that people are concerned about is that China appears to see economy not as something that brings people together and creates interdependence but something that can be "won". That their end goal is to acquire all this technology and then shut out foreign competition. They've already done it in too many industries to count where expertise was sold then the Chinese company displaced the American company with copies of their product.

The problem is Trump approached this completely the wrong direction. He started a war with everyone instead of working with out allies. He could have arranged an agreement with every Western country to take China on in this area and demand change. He could have united the world and forced China to stop the unfair trade practices at the threat of losing all market access in the west, instead Trump started a trade war with all our allies and drove them to make deals with Russia and China at our expense. China and Russia are laughing all the way to the bank while we've destroyed the goodwill and soft power it took this country a century and millions of lives to build and one guy trashed it in 18 months. It's a staggering achievement.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[perlface]

EU would not cooperate they are happy to work with China against the USA's interests.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Streetlight]

I pretty much agree with most of what you wrote. By locking out China, and incidentally others, China and other western countries, can lock out the US from its tech advances as well as access to non tech markets for manufactured goods. Others could develop equivalent or better tech and marketable products than the US. The Harley-Davidson example may indicate another option. There are likely to be no winners in a trade war. Which country will be the biggest loser? It might be the US.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[youngone]

EU would not cooperate they are happy to work with China against the USA's interests.

Why would the EU work for the USA's interests? I would expect the EU to look to their own interests.
I would also like an example of the EU working in China's interest please.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[angel'o'sphere]

Not really an answer to you, Rahvin, I just quote you.
Your arguement is it may lock the US out not to share but assume they would share and some would consider it highly likely that they wouldn't.
What technology does the USA actually have to share? Intel processors ... hm, now let me think ... an iPhone is not really "technology", neither is a laptop ... they can build nukes, so can China ... hm ... an Aircraft Carrier, China bought their only one from Russia, hm ... actually I have a really hard time to think about anything that the USA has the rest of the world, particularly China, has not.
Well, now some pharmaceutic companies come to mind, but that is more a money and "we buy what we can" thing than technology or innovation.
So: what actually is it that China is "stealing" from the US?
I can not really imagine any US product being interesting for me, well an Apple Laptop, made in Ireland, or an iPhone made in China or Taiwan, or a Harley Davidson, made in Thailand ... what exactly is it, the US is making and gets stolen by Chinese companies?
Sure, I could buy an US car ... but as I live without a car and use my bicycle ... why would I? A vietnamese, korean, or russian car is cheaper (got for bid an Indian one). Any other car, like from Europe or Scandinavia is better. Ah, a Tesla would perhaps be an exception.

So again: what exactly is the US producing that is worth to be stolen?

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just give China Micro$oft, Tesla, and The Red Hen eatery. The country will then BSOD, crash into the great wall, and get diarrhea.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU has offered the US to cooperate with handling the trade problems with China but got no reply.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would expect the EU to look to their own interests.

Precisely the point of the GP. The EU nations are ungrateful, disloyal and selfish. We kept them out of the Soviet Union during the Cold War and look how they have repaid us. It's time to leave the EU to their fate with Putin and Russia unless they agree to help us against both Russia and China. Trump is on the right track, he's just driving a hard bargain and forcing the EU to quit siding with our enemies.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[AmiMoJo]

That their end goal is to acquire all this technology and then shut out foreign competition.

Isn't that Trump's policy too?

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Interfacer]

France kept the English from sending reinforcements and helped you become an independent nation.
You were perfectly happy to let the Germans steamroll over the rest of Europe until pearl harbor.

In the end, the US only cares about the US. Why do you expect the EU to be 'loyal'? Everything the US did, it did to get more in return.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[gtall]

And there are a lot of Chinese students who stayed in the U.S., became scientists and engineers, and are happily increasing the industrial and scientific might of the U.S.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm, Donald, I see why you're angry at the Red Hen eatery, and Musk walking away from you must have stung, but what has Microsoft ever done to you?

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Anonymous Coward]

You were perfectly happy to let the Germans steamroll over the rest of Europe until pearl harbor.

That's why we were sending support to the British forces since nearly day 1 of WWII in the form of both supplies, equipment and personnel?

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[angel'o'sphere]

My hometown, Karlsruhe, Germany, is overrun with Chinese students.
Mostly studying electric and mechanical engineering.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[Ryanrule]

Yeah I married one of these. Their culture is anti innovation.

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[kellymcdonald78]

It wasn't just out of the goodness of your heart. It was In exchange for much of the British gold reserve and military basing rights all over the world. The USSR shipped billions in gold, platinum and diamonds to the US. It was pure "cash and carry" until March 1941

Re:When will US companies steal Tech from China?

[TechnoCore]

Really Ivan?

The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Tablizer]

Whether it's "logical" to accept trade imbalances is moot in politics. Large imbalances will often be blamed for various problems, such as the shrinkage of various local industries. Whether such is fair blame or not doesn't matter: it makes a great political scapegoat and eventually somebody will use it for political gain. You have to work with humans as they are, not as they should be.

Therefore, it's best to avoid large imbalances. I propose the WTO change their approach such that countries be able to raise tariffs to correct aggregate balances.

Each nation will probably end up protecting certain industries, but it will more or less balance out over time as each give and take until an equilibrium is reached. The US may protect 30% and China may protect 30%, for example. It's a civilized compromise.

However, the rule should gradually kick in rather than all at once to avoid shocking the markets. Trump doesn't do "gradually" very well.

There are too many ways to "micro-cheat" such that the current way of bringing up complaints of artificial barriers to WTO is not practical. Suppose each city in China gives red tape to outside firms out of nationalistic feelings or subtle pressure from the central gov't. One would have collect data from almost every cheating city when presenting evidence to the WTO court (or whatever they call it). That's not practical. An aggregate trade number is easier to monitor. Not perfect, but better than micro-monitoring and micro-suing.

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Anonymous Coward]

The markets had plenty of warning. Trump is doing what he promised to do during the campaign some 2 years ago.

It should be no surprise to anyone. Especially professional bankers or traders.

Re: The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if trade balances are 100% neutral Trump will just invent facts to suit his narrative. US is running a trade surplus with Canada. Does not matter at all.

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Tablizer]

The markets had plenty of warning. Trump is doing what he promised to do during the campaign some 2 years ago.

But he's flip-floppy, or at least has a very uneven pace. For example, it looked like he privately negotiated with China to skip larger tariffs if China would help with North Korea and if T wouldn't make new noise about Taiwan. Thus, he mostly ignored China trade for many months, perhaps due to apparent progress with NK.

Now it's a "big thing" again. He tends to mix national security with trade issues more so than other presidents, confusing the markets. Financial experts are not military experts.

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Anonymous Coward]

Whether it's "logical" to accept trade imbalances is moot in politics. Large imbalances will often be blamed for various problems, such as the shrinkage of various local industries. Whether such is fair blame or not doesn't matter: it makes a great political scapegoat and eventually somebody will use it for political gain.

Doesn't matter. There are two major countries where the USA has a trade surplus: Canada and the UK.

Doesn't stop Trump from slapping duties on Canadian steel saying that Canada is a national security threat to the USA

(Seriously? A national security threat?
1. Canada and the USA have been friends for a very very long time.
2. If push comes to shove, the USA could invade Canada, and it would take 2 weeks or less for the USA to win.)

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Tablizer]

There are two major countries where the USA has a trade surplus: Canada and the UK.

Canada heavily protects their dairy and maple syrup markets; there's no disputing that. Also, there are different ways to measure trade balances such that a case can be made against the surplus claim.

But I agree it's silly to get snotty over such, though. Small problems should be quietly negotiated. T lacks a sense of proportion: it's "calling wolf".

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[youngone]

Financial experts are not military experts.

I have some bad news for you. Your Mr. Trump is neither of those things.

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada protects their dairy markets because the US subsidizes theirs to the tune of something like $40 billion+ per annum. They were never on equal footing to begin with.

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Anonymous Coward]

then what ? Years of young poorer americans coming home in body bags ? Or a withdrawl and more growling across the border ?

Re: The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada and the USA have been friends for a very very long time.

There is no bitterness so great as friends that become enemies.

If push comes to shove, the USA could invade Canada, and it would take 2 weeks or less for the USA to win.)

In the event of a US invasion of Canada, it will take less than 24 hours for the sheer unmitigated disaster to become grossly apparent.

It may be a funny movie, a damn funny movie, but the reality would be a crisis of epic proportions.

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Tablizer]

I was referring to "The markets had plenty of warning."

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada protects their dairy markets because the US subsidizes theirs to the tune of something like $40 billion+ per annum. They were never on equal footing to begin with.

And Canada massively subsidizes their soft wood lumber industry. Canada is not an innocent party in this relationship.

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[derrickn]

They do no such thing. Lumber companies in Canada (domestic and foreign) buy licences on tree stands on large tracts of government land instead of privately owned land as in America. The average price of those licences is considerably lower than what private land owners in the States will sell for. The Canadian government never went out and expropriated that land from private owners to sell the trees at a lower price, though. They just never sold it to middle-men and the lumber companies benefit by buying at "wholesale" prices. Is that a subsidy?

Re: The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[shilly]

Oh really? Sources please

Re:The NON-ham-handed way to do it

[kellymcdonald78]

Canada does not subsidize its softwood lumber industry, and the WTO has agreed with this assessment time and time again. It's just that the lumber industry in Canada operates under a very different model. Most forestry takes place on Crown Land in Canada (except on Vancouver Island), companies are charged stumpage fees and required to restore the land once they are done. This means the whole capital structure of Canadian lumber companies is totally different from those in the US.

Fiscal heaven

[manu0601]

rules that would block firms with at least 25 percent Chinese ownership from buying companies

What if the official owner is in a fiscal heaven where the real owner is completely hidden?

Um... you do know the economy doesn't move

[rsilvergun]

that fast, right? These people lost ground for 8 years under Obama, 8 years under Bush and 8 years under Clinton. The older ones lost ground before that too. These trends have been going on for over 40 years. They've been ignored that long. There was a brief respite during the .com boom and an even briefer one during the housing boom.

It's kinda hard to shoot yourself in the foot when somebody else already cut you off at the knees.

Re:Um... you do know the economy doesn't move

[Anonymous Coward]

China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001. Since then China's central bank keeps the yuan undervalued, thereby over-stimulating their exports while discouraging U.S. exports to China. Such blatant currency manipulation contributes significantly to a $365-billion trade deficit last year with China that would not exist in a freely floating exchange rate world.

Similarly, when China simply steals the intellectual property behind U.S. technology — and avoids incurring substantial research and development costs — it gains a huge advantage in key industries like autos, biotechnology, and pharmaceuticals. Likewise, when Chinese companies evade the environmental and worker safety costs imposed on American industry, made-in-China stuff can get even cheaper.
https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d517a4e334d7a4d/img/5f50ec15-ab66-442b-9eb6-b86399f645bb.jpg
Too many posters have Trump Derangement Syndrome and like our MNM, jump on him using any excuse, made up or otherwise.

Re:Um... you do know the economy doesn't move

[Anonymous Coward]

China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001. Since then China's central bank keeps the yuan undervalued, thereby over-stimulating their exports while discouraging U.S. exports to China

So... the Chinese are selling you stuff cheap. You're buying at cost instead of full price. What a dastardly condition they have foisted upon you!

I should add

[rsilvergun]

I'm not saying what they're doing is going to help, but I _am_ saying it's not likely to make things much worse for them. You're underestimating how bad off 40% of America is. Like the man said, what have you got to lose? For a lot of people there really isn't anything. That's what 40 years of declining wages means.

Re:I should add

[Anonymous Coward]

Cry me a fucking river. That 40% is still 1000x better than half the fucking world.

Re:I should add

[FFOMelchior]

Cry me a fucking river. That 40% is still 1000x better than half the fucking world.

"At least we're better off than 3rd world countries!"
- New Trumper motto, apparently.

Re:I should add

[Jane Q. Public]

Not an argument.

That's like saying you shouldn't bitch when someone breaks your arm, because the next person in line got a broken leg.

Fallacious reasoning, plain and simple.

Re:I should add

[Peter P Peters]

Not an argument.

It actually is. Nature abhors a vacuum, and once global trade became easy, thanks to improved comms and transport technology, then the only possible outcome is a rebalancing of wealth from the extreme rich (on a global scale) to everyone else.
To give you an idea, what is an unskilled labour salary in the US, $13/hour? In Indonesia it's $10/day. You simply cannot compete with that, so the only option is to find something else to do that can't be exported easily.

It may be that the $13/hour labourer was facing a decline to $12/hour and thought they had nothing to lose, but only because you don't fully grasp that it could easily be $6/hour. Under Trump's trade war that is now a possibility.

The point here, is that thinking there is nothing to lose is a trap. Especially when you live in the richest country in the world. It's a long way down from the top, be careful what you wish for.

Re:I should add

[jwymanm]

This too is bullshit since keeping the higher paid jobs here in the USA spreads the wealth to local service industry which creates more customers that can afford airpods and other imported chinese garbage. You think poor Chinese or Indonesian workers are buying Harley Davidson? No, USA factory and service workers are.

Re:I should add

[houghi]

"At least we're better off than some 3rd world countries!"
FTFY

Re:I should add

[Peter P Peters]

This too is bullshit since keeping the higher paid jobs here in the USA spreads the wealth to local service industry which creates more customers that can afford airpods and other imported chinese garbage. You think poor Chinese or Indonesian workers are buying Harley Davidson? No, USA factory and service workers are.

I've actually been in a Harley Davidson dealer in Indonesia, so someone there is buying them.
Size of US Market: 320M
Size of Global Market: 7500M
There are now more billionaires in Asia than the US
Do the maths

Re:I should add

[jwymanm]

5 total in Indonesia. That's how many HD stores that there are within 30 miles of me in Indiana :)

Re:I should add

[Peter P Peters]

5 total in Indonesia. That's how many HD stores that there are within 30 miles of me in Indiana :)

Cool, so you admit that people are buying Harleys in Indonesia now? And that Harley Davidson is better off by having access to international markets?
Nearly 40% of HD sales are international. Or do you think HD would be better off with a 40% drop in sales?
How about Boeing? Or Apple? Or Caterpillar?

Re:I should add

[jwymanm]

This is about production in the USA. They planned to move it out of the USA even before the tariffs. I'm perfectly happy if they sell the bikes in Indonesia that they build in Indonesia. I don't want any country to suffer less employment opportunities. USA dwarfs any other place on the map as far as sales. If you move production away from USA you'll hurt sales in USA. It shouldn't be about saving a % here and there. It should be about supporting the economy.. which is why a lot of people who buy HD also buy "Made in USA."

Re:I should add

[Peter P Peters]

I'm perfectly happy if they sell the bikes in Indonesia that they build in Indonesia.

A quick history lesson for you. Thousands of years ago people discovered that trading with people outside their specific group brought benefits to both parties. The trade didn't have to be 50:50 to be a net gain for everyone, all you need is for one side to receive something they want in exchange for something they don't need as much of. 'Hey we have lots of rice that we don't need, those guys over there have lots of coffee, let's trade so we both get some rice and some coffee etc
Fast forward thousands of years, a motorcycle is made of thousands of parts sourced from hundreds or suppliers in dozens of different places. Your Harley dealer in Indiana isn't just selling you a Harley manufactured entirely for Indiana labour.
To use Indiana as an example, if every part of every product available in Indiana had to be made in Indiana, do you think you'd be better off?
The answer is no. You are better off by trading goods with others. That is why global trade is a thing. The bigger and more open the markets the more potential for growth overall. This is a key principle of free market economics that is central to the conservative agenda.

I don't want any country to suffer less employment opportunities. USA dwarfs any other place on the map as far as sales. If you move production away from USA you'll hurt sales in USA. It shouldn't be about saving a % here and there. It should be about supporting the economy.. which is why a lot of people who buy HD also buy "Made in USA."

Made in USA using imported parts. This is why tariffs won't work. If all those components are sourced locally they cost more, meaning the price of your Harley will go up, meaning less people will buy Harleys, meaning Harley makes less money, meaning they hire less people, meaning lees people with income to buy more Harleys. Do you see how that works?
If you want to improve the US economy, there are other ways to achieve this. Tariffs is not one of them.

Re:I should add

[jwymanm]

China undercuts the USA on steel and other parts. They print money for suppliers to use to offset costs so they are cheaper so they don't lose the production. I'm not saying bring production back to Indiana (but actually a lot of car parts are made in Indiana funny enough), but the USA in general. Tariffs are matching what other countries are already doing to us. It's one thing to have free global trade for stuff some countries are better at doing and it's another to lose 95% of production capacity because it just happens to be artificially free to produce steel in China. Free trade is like socialism, it's great in theory and then goes to hell in a hand basket when applied to communistic and dictatorship countries. We end up giving them tons of money and lose entire industries to them and have to deal with the pain later for short term profit gains. Meanwhile entire cities here in the USA are losing factory after factory and closing down small stores and restaurants which in turn reduces tax payers, etc. Global trade is only good short term. The longer term answer is to suffer the higher costs of localized/national production and increase local competition to reduce those costs. That way we do not lose the know how and become stronger as a country in producing everything we need. Self contained eco systems are something a lot of liberal people love to tote. I'm not even sure why anyone promotes self deprecating globalism. I don't want lower price tags in the USA, in fact I want the opposite. Higher price tags and more people who can afford those higher price tags. You don't get that by losing jobs to chop shop/kid labor overseas. We can export our industries then and build USA led businesses in the other countries without being forced to open up our IP or have less than 50% share. Let other countries fail in the meantime due to their poorly ran economies not succeed because they are just cheap since they have no laws on pollution or are 300% government subsidized.

Re:I should add

[Peter P Peters]

Tariffs are matching what other countries are already doing to us.

So your solution is escalation? We've already done that remember and it didn't turn out well.

Free trade is like socialism,

Oh dear. Free trade is actually capitalism. This is how stupid American politics has become, the far right are backing a leftist agenda then criticising the left for trying to be more right.

. Meanwhile entire cities here in the USA are losing factory after factory and closing down small stores and restaurants which in turn reduces tax payers, etc.

So you solution is to make that worse? Like how Trump said he would drain the swamp when in fact in just made the swap larger?

I don't want lower price tags in the USA, in fact I want the opposite. Higher price tags and more people who can afford those higher price tags.

Which is fine, I agree that paying a higher ticket price to ensure some level of quality is a good thing overall. But this is not a capitalist ideal. It seems with Trump the Republicans have thrown every ideal they had out the window because winning is more important than being sticking with your beliefs

You don't get that by losing jobs to chop shop/kid labor overseas.

Well you can if you play it right. America is in decline because it didn't adapt quickly enough to globalisation. Globalisation means some jobs will no longer be cost effective, while others will be more profitable If you cling to the old way and just expect things to work you'e in for a surprise.
Trumps policies are clinging to the odd way. There is no vision or plan of how this will lead America to a brighter future. Tariffs don't work and everyone knows it

conflicting surveillance operating system...

[Anonymous Coward]

... duh.

Re:Trump has cost me

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EigIujKxDcE

True, Trump is all about grand proportions

[raymorris]

> Small problems can be quietly negotiated. T lacks a sense of proportion

I've kept an eye on Trump for 20 years, and I'd say that's a fundamental part of his personality, his psyche. Parodies of him always have him talking about "yuge" because that's Trump, he always wants to go big, the biggest.

There is good and bad about "go big or go home" in a president.

Re: True, Trump is all about grand proportions

[Anonymous Coward]

the biggest baddest fuckup making everyone else around him pay dearly. only smoke and rubble will be left after that snotty kid!

Not protectionism, its distractionism

[Anonymous Coward]

"Protectionism" assume any thought has gone into it. Trump is driven by nutjob websites and Russian feeder trolls, that don't do research and he is driven by that lack of knowlegde. Each time he fucks up, he does something bigger and badder to distract.

e.g. He called Canada and accused them of running a huge trade deficit with the US (US has a trade *surplus* with Canada, in his tweet he admitted he didn't really know, he just said it).

So then, his men have to make that claim plausible, and come up with a claim that Canada runs a surplus if you ignore 'services' and so Trump can double down on the false claim and have a trade war over NAFTA rather than admit he's wrong and should have read the numbers first:

"Donald J. Trump
Verified account @realDonaldTrump We do have a Trade Deficit with Canada, as we do with almost all countries (some of them massive). P.M. Justin Trudeau of Canada, a very good guy, doesn’t like saying that Canada has a Surplus vs. the U.S.(negotiating), but they do...they almost all do...and that’s how I know! 6:29 AM - 15 Mar 2018 "

For Trump, just look at what went before to see why he's doing it. e.g. he bans Philadelphia Eagles from the Whitehouse, for taking the knee, which they *didn't* do. Instead Trump has a small party at the Whitehouse, where even some of his staffers take the knee in protest, Eagles have a huge massive party at home. Big loss of face for Trump, so he sets off on a trade war, or was it 'God made me put kids in concentration camps' thing.... He literally jumps from one mistake to the next, trying to constantly change the subject from the last disaster.

It's only when something settles as the subject (other than Mueller) that he stops changing the subject.

Re:Not protectionism, its distractionism

[kellymcdonald78]

It also highlights the main issue, how can you have a rationale discourse and negotiate a workable agreement, when the other side is willing to just make shit up. At the core of negotiations is the concept of "meeting of minds" to understand and discuss interests. If one side is telling you that the sky is red and clouds are orange, and that yes means no and no means yes where do you go? You can't negotiate with crazy

We need to De-Trump...

[bkmoore]

IP theft is a problem, but if Trump wants to confront China effectively, he would need Europe and the rest of the world on our side to confront China as a unified block. Any trade expert would advise Trump the same and Trump may even know this. But I don't think Trump cares about results. He's more interested in motivating his base to turn out in November. So this is really a non-event. I just wish the media would finally wise up that 99% of Trump is hot air and stop covering him or his antics. We need to De-Trump our selves.

Re:We need to De-Trump...

[Anonymous Coward]

IP theft is just a tiny part of the problem. The real problem is, that US and EU corporations were starting to build factories in China in droves, not realizing, or not caring, because it was out of scope for the next budget, that those factories were xeroxed by the Chinese.

At first it didn't matter much, because first the Chinese had to figure how to run these paper mills, stell mills, etc. and then they had to supply China's rising demand. When that demand had been met, China started to flood the world with the products from their knock-off factories, one industry branche at a time

Ignoring the Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

You cannot win a trade war with China with tariffs and threats.

China has two unbeatable cards in its arsenal.

1 - Stop buying US bonds and notes. Imagine if you will for a moment that China simple forbid its citizens from buying US bonds or treasury notes. They might even start selling what they own to undercut any we try to sell.

2 - Stop buying oil with US dollars. China might just be able to make itself the defacto world currency. Just ponder that for a few minutes.

Trump and his base are scared and acting stupid. I am convinced Trump and republicans are scared of the many problems that the world faces and are acting and voting like scared little cowards who just want to hide.

Re:Ignoring the Obvious

[johnsie]

China can still cheap goods outside the US. The rest of the world will always favor cheap Chinese products over overpriced American products.

Re:Ignoring the Obvious

[keithdowsett]

China has a much bigger stick than not buying US bonds.. they could sell some.

The Bank of China has something like 3 trillion US dollars in reserves. Imagine what would happen if they announced that they were going to sell ten billion dollars of US government treasury bills every month until the tariffs were rescinded.

Russia vs. China proxy war

[edi_guy]

I wonder how this all plays out in Russian and Chinese relations. The Russians are said to be more than happy to see the USA chaotically, fumble through world affairs. A failure in the US economy would be equally welcome given the small trade between the two countries.

The Chinese however have a vested, large monetary interest in a stable and prosperous USA. The failure of the US economy will have a huge detrimental effect on China. One could see Xi Jinping phoning Putin to tell him to knock it off, lest Russia face a combined Chinese+American block...

Re:Russia vs. China proxy war

[Miles_O'Toole]

Unlike the US, China is capable of long-range planning. Yes, in the short term, it would damage the Chinese economy if the US economy tanked.

However, if the ultimate result was to make the world turn its back on the US dollar as the "Global Currency", China would rejoice. And if the US dollar was demoted to third place as the IMF's World Reserve Currency behind the euro and the yuan, China would be equally pleased.

Last year, the banks of Japan, Germany, France and the UK held more liabilities denominated in dollars than in their own currencies. Imagine the opportunities for China, both economically and in terms of international prestige, if those debts were held in yuan.

Re:Russia vs. China proxy war

[Anonymous Coward]

For that purpose, the Yuan and the Dollar are the same thing, because they are artificially pegged together.

If China had any stones at all, it would unpeg its currency from the Dollar and peg it to the Ruble or the Euro (both of which it knows would be utter economic suicide).

Re:Russia vs. China proxy war

[Miles_O'Toole]

China has always played games with its currency. So has the US, for that matter. Do you seriously believe China's only action would be to unpeg its currency or link it with the euro?

Not likely

If they chose to make such a move, they'd likely do it at the same time they started screwing around with their US debt holdings. China holds over a trillion dollars of US debt, which gives them a nice, firm hold on Uncle Sam's balls.

that is a stupid remark

[aepervius]

People don't compare to folk half the world away, they compare to their immediate neighbors. That is why they elect fascist populist politician : because they want to get a better living and see the other 60% getting it. Not saying they are right, but simply that your remark is stupid.

Re:that is a stupid remark

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly right. Rich to them isn't the Jamie Dimon book club - it's the guy down the street with an above ground pool.

You have no credibility whatsoever.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a clueless idiot (WindBourne maybe) The Chinese currency went up 10% and the trade balance just got worse anyway, and increased to record highs.

Show even a semi-credible person who things the Yuan is not priced at fair value.

Re:Clearly, the inmates are ruThe nning the asylum

[Anonymous Coward]

The tariffs are to reduce trade with China. This succeeds whether they are imposed from the US side or the China side. They think "retaliating" with more tariffs will hurt us, but it's closing the same trade route from the other side. It's what we WANT them to do.

Can We Target India Too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Might as well while we're at it and just in case any politician out there hasn't already noticed, the nation which masters AI first will be the world's superpower for the next 100 years. Will you let India or China steal that prize or fail to punish the disloyal companies that are handing it to them even as we speak?

Re:Can We Target India Too?

[johnsie]

Indians and Chinese are smart and hard working enough to come up with their own tech.

Don't know what you got till it's gone...

[Anonymous Coward]

If they weren't already rioting in the streets, they got plenty more to lose.

Re: Trump has cost me

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't even out. The rest of us are paying much more than that so you get that 50k. I am all for charity but hate being forced to; especially to jack asses like you.

Tariffs almost never help

[sjbe]

It remains to be seen who will bear the brunt of it.

You and I will. That much is self evident. Tariffs pretty much always benefit a few at the expense of the many. Trump is doing nothing more than pandering to a political base and costing all of us in the process. If he really wanted to solve trade issues he's going about it entirely backwards.

Re:Trump has cost me

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EigIujKxDcE

This place is either crawling with Trump supporters or Americans have severely defective sarcasm detectors.

Keep ignoring reality. It won't return the favor.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the whole, the US is easily one of the most diverse, least racist, and most welcoming countries on the planet.

Having lived abroad on three continents, I can unequivocally call bullshit on this. The US is one of the least welcoming developed nations. Now, if you want to compare us to Saudi Arabia, Israel, or Mozambique then sure, we look pretty good. Compare us to most European nations, and even a chunk of Asian nations, and we don't come out looking very good at all.

And this was before Trump smeared our reputation with feces and flushed it down the toilet for all the world to see.

It's not rebalancing from the extreme rich

[rsilvergun]

it's from the working class of one country to another. The extremely rich are still extremely rich. Even more so now. Having reliable access to food, shelter, healthcare, education and transportation as well as retirement when you're too old to work does _not_ make you "extremely rich". It makes you Middle Class. The ground is being lost by the American Middle Class. Also, the losses the American Middle class have suffered are nearly 1 to 1 gains for the top 1%.

The American working class doesn't have to give ground so the rest of the world can be lifted out of poverty. That's one way to do it, but not the _only_ way. We could just as easily take it from the extremely rich. If we were willing to, that is.

Re:It's not rebalancing from the extreme rich

[Peter P Peters]

The American working class doesn't have to give ground so the rest of the world can be lifted out of poverty. That's one way to do it, but not the _only_ way.

I agree, but that seems to be the way the American conservatives prefer it to go. Convince the voters that foreigners are the enemy in order to manipulate them into giving themselves more power and wealth.
As I said, the happy path lies in accepting globalisation as an unstoppable force of nature, and tweak your economy to take advantage of it rather than wasting energy fighting an unwinnable battle

We could just as easily take it from the extremely rich. If we were willing to, that is.

For some reason the rich have convinced the poor and middle class that this a bad idea. The US is the only place I know of where this has happened, so it's a interesting case study into how such a crazy situation like that can occur.
In 1980 in both Europe and the US, the top 1% took in 10% of their respective incomes. Today the top 1% in Europe take in 12% while in the US it's 20%. So inequality is getting much worse in the US and the disadvantaged somehow keep voting in the people keep the cycle going. It really is nuts.

The richest 3 people in the US have more wealth than the bottom 50%. Why don't you simply confiscate their wealth and double the wealth of half the country overnight? It sounds unjust on the surface, but in a country where over 500,000 people die each year from poverty, isn't it better to sacrifice 3 people for the sake of 160 million? And the flow on effect from that one action would trickle up to the other 160 million within weeks.
If we're ok with sacrificing conscripts in wars, why aren't we ok with sacrificing a handful of conscripts to save the economy and millions of lives? We don't even have to kill them, just strip them of all their assets and leave them on a median wage to live on for the rest of their lives.

It's about time we caught up

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about time America caught up with Chinese, Indian, Brazilian, and Russian nationalism. These countries impose astronomical import tariffs on American goods and restrict export of any intellectual property (though they certainly don't mind importing/stealing it).

We've bent over for far too long being the world's benefactor, only to be stabbed in the back by those suckling at our teat. It's time to end all of it. No more free handouts.

MAGA

Re:It's about time we caught up

[shilly]

Bending over while suckling and being stabbed in the back -- all at the same time! You Trumpkins certainly have a penchant for vivid imagery. Albeit stolen without attribution from Nazi predecessors sore about losing WWI. Your spiritual, political and moral predecessors too.

Made in China 2025

[oh_my_080980980]

Read the Reuters article https://www.reuters.com/articl...

"Under Made in China 2025, unveiled by China’s State Council in 2015, China wants to catch up with rivals in sectors including robotics, aerospace, clean-energy cars and advanced basic materials. "

"The strategy is at the core of China’s efforts to move up the value chain and achieve Xi’s vision of turning the country into a global superpower by 2050. "

"Under the plan, Beijing wants Chinese suppliers to capture 70 percent of market share by 2025 for “basic core components and important basic materials” in strategic industries."

"Other targets endorsed by senior Chinese officials include ensuring 40 percent of smartphone chips are domestically made by 2025. "

On a related note...

[Locke2005]

What is the best way to survive the eminent Trump recession? Will the recession happen in time to affect his re-election in 2020?

I don't think it's just a better life

[rsilvergun]

they're looking to maintain. To hang on. Remember 40% don't have $400 in the bank. They're one car accident or one health problem away from disaster and they know it. 40 years of declining wages means we've got millions of people on the edge.

Doesn't everyone

[jennatalia]

Just want to watch this whole burning world and what he does? Opinions or not, unless you can get on the Presidential Suckup TV(aka FoxNews), we're just along for the ride here in the states.

Re:Trump has cost me

[ebvwfbw]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EigIujKxDcE

This place is either crawling with Trump supporters or Americans have severely defective sarcasm detectors.

Wake up and look at some real news because MSM certainly won't tell you just how well we're doing.
#1 in GDP, unemployment is at a 40+ year low, black people have never done better, consumer confidence is at an all time high. And so on. That's why the Democrats are making up shit like the fake child separation crisis from pictures taken during the Obama administration.

I didn't want him to be President, however I'll take the success. Only really stupid people want him to fail for their ideology.

Re:Trump has cost me

[Highdude702]

I don't quite understand that, they claim to love America, yet they want it to fail, and they're cheering it on it seems..

Re:Trump has cost me

[ebvwfbw]

I don't quite understand that, they claim to love America, yet they want it to fail, and they're cheering it on it seems..

Deception. Lies. If they came right out and said - we want to destroy America, do you think they'd get far? Yes, we want to increase your debt as much as possible so we can ruin your country and everything it stands for... probably wouldn't be that many takers. How did Hitler do it? I'm going to make Germany rise out our ashes. We're going to be something again! How did Stalin and the Russians do it? Same way. Hell, how did Castro do it? Same way. He was a buddy of the US until he got power. He was a vicious killer. So was Che Guevara. It is kind of funny that Obama was like a movie villain. Telling us what he wanted to do before hand.

So look at what Obama did. He more than doubled our debt from 7 to 21 T and set entitlements up to around 100T. Nobody can pay that off. That's more than all the money in the world. Civil strife. When GW Bush left office, sure we had a shooting here, incident there, mostly nothing. After he left we had Trayvon Martin - a kid that tried to kill a man and was a known local thug and was killed. He sent people down to stir things up. It kept happening. He started packing ideologues into judges jobs, prosecutors, etc. Sotomayer - yea, she shouldn't be on the Supreme Court. That was a payback. Then there is what Obama did to other countries. Took out Libya and kicked countries below it so they crapped many thousands of next to no education Muslims that looked like an invading army sans the military gear into Europe. By law they were supposed to be taken back to Africa, not Italy. He tried to topple Egypt and fortunately they stood up and put the muslim brotherhood mad dogs down. He hurt us big internationally to the point China snubbed him and Greece rioted when he showed up on his farewell tour. Hardly a word of any of this in the press. He tried to tie everything up in regulations. Thousands and thousands of them that would have meant he wouldn't have been re-elected if they saw the light of day before 2012. Every day he tried to find a new way to screw us.

Then there's Europe. Where you can't tell what the muslims are doing in Germany or your somehow racist. England has gone nuts bashing their own citizens to cater to muslims. Hear about the nazi saluting dog? You can't make this stuff up. Hitler himself didn't have a problem when it was done during his time, yet England found a guy guilty of making fun, of Nazis. Really. You have to read it to believe it.

It's like - WTF happened to sensible people? Did electronics turn all of our heads into mush? Seems like for a large portion of the world the answer is yes.

I have to wonder, maybe 2012 was the wrong end of the world date. Maybe it's really 2022.

Re:Trump has cost me

[Highdude702]

Lots of interesting stuff you said there. Too bad you keep getting modded down to telling the truth. Can't talk bad about their lord and savior obama. You however bring up one really interesting question.

It's like - WTF happened to sensible people? Did electronics turn all of our heads into mush? Seems like for a large portion of the world the answer is yes.

I often wonder if the internet has ruined people as a group. It turns people toxic, the worst part is so many people buy into things said on the internet like it has to be true. Just like how TV used to be, before the internet.. I grew up at the same time the internet did, I started on it in the mid 90's as a kid thanks to my father, and it quickly became my favorite "toy" because I could learn things, and I could make things!! The internet was a wonderful place then... And then in 2000 it started to go down hill, computers were becoming more common, and easier to afford. The large influx of "common" people helped ruin the internet. That's when companies saw the flow of money the internet produced and they worked hard to dumb it down. But I guess that's just like, my opinion man..

Re:Trump has cost me

[ebvwfbw]

I often wonder if the internet has ruined people as a group. It turns people toxic, the worst part is so many people buy into things said on the internet like it has to be true. Just like how TV used to be, before the internet.. I grew up at the same time the internet did, I started on it in the mid 90's as a kid thanks to my father, and it quickly became my favorite "toy" because I could learn things, and I could make things!! The internet was a wonderful place then... And then in 2000 it started to go down hill, computers were becoming more common, and easier to afford. The large influx of "common" people helped ruin the internet. That's when companies saw the flow of money the internet produced and they worked hard to dumb it down. But I guess that's just like, my opinion man..

I go way back. 1970s. Modems, bbs, computers I had to dial into. I remember when they merged a whole bunch of networks into the internet. In college we had network news. We had what we called the flame. Someone would say something and someone else would pound them, being a jerk. That's where Godwins law came in. Seemed like everything ended up - you're a nazi. It was just how fast that happened. "I fixed the bug in Make. It wasn't written that well right here. It works well now" -> "You're an asshole, I wrote that code and you have no idea what the hell you're talking about! Why don't you go back to your mama you Neanderthal." If you were female, it could get a lot worse.
Professionally e-mail could be a problem. You don't know if the person is joking or really did call you an ass. I remember a woman in England wrote a letter that I thought I was going to get fired over. I checked in code that had a bug in it. OMG she ripped me. We called up and she said - no big deal, just wanted you to know there was a bug in it, honey! My boss and I looked at each other like WTF? Ok, thanks, good bye. One of her people did the same thing a week later. Bill simply changed the names and sent it back to her. It was 1992, just before George HW Bush signed the internet over to the public. Since then we see more stupid people on the net. Now any one, even an idiot can get on. I know because I know someone that really is an idiot IQ wise and they're online. Facebook mostly and of course they're liberal. Insert joke here. Look it up sometime. There really is a definition of idiot, imbecile, moron. I know people that are actually diagnosed as crazy, they're on as well.

Being modded troll gets me sometimes. I think there is one individual doing it, mostly. Bad part of /. You can look for posts from certain people and persecute them. I try to just mod up. Sometimes when I see someone really is a troll, have to mark them as a troll. I used to worry about it. However my karma is still good. So troll away... I wish more people would tell the truth. We really need to do that. Don't let them win because people will believe them. Lincoln used to say a lie is already around the world when the truth is still putting on its shoes.

See, This I Take Issue With

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's kinda hard to shoot yourself in the foot when somebody else already cut you off at the knees."

It sounds good, all slogan-ey and Trump-y. Except it's failing to take any sort of responsibility. "I had no feet and therefore I had to vote for Trump." Really? There were no better candidates on the Republican ticket? None at all?

Also, did "those people" lose ground during the Clinton years or didn't they? You seem confused on that point. On the matter of responsibility though, suppose they did lose ground. Why? The Clinton Presidency was on an epic tear, economically speaking. Did the Trump supporters take advantage of that or did they just continue racing cars around circular tracks, smug in their assurance that the world would never change?

I have giant problems with any logic chain that leads to Trump as the solution, as any kind of answer. If you think that "tear it all down" is an answer to your life situation, you deserve what you get. Thinking "it can't get worse than this" is childish and simplistic. Also, it can always get worse, no matter what you think.

No sympathy here.