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Russian Shipwreck Allegedly Carrying $130 Billion In Gold Has Been Rediscovered (popularmechanics.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Popular Mechanics: A salvage company has located the remains of a Russian warship lost during the the Russo-Japanese War. The battle-damaged cruiser Dmitrii Donskoi was scuttled off the coast of Korea in 1905, reportedly carrying a cargo of gold worth an estimated $130 billion in today's dollars. An international consortium of companies plans to salvage the gold.
According to the Telegraph, the Donskoi was found less than a mile off the coast of Ulleung island, at a depth of 1,423 feet in the Sea of Japan. A submersible descended to the wreck and captured an image of the ship's name on the stern in the Cyrillic alphabet. The South Korean Shinil Group, which discovered the wreck, plans to recover the gold sometime later this year with help from companies in China, Canada, and the U.K. At the time of her sinking Donskoi was reportedly carrying 5,500 boxes of gold bars and 200 tons of gold coins with a street value today of $130 billion. That's more than twice Russia's 2017 defense budget, which was $61 billion. If the treasure does materialize, the Russian government will receive half of the recovered amount. The money that's not going to Russia will reportedly be invested in a railroad line linking North Korea, South Korea, and Russia. A small percentage (10%) will also be invested in tourism projects on Ulleungdo Island, including a museum dedicated to the vessel.
According to the Telegraph, the Donskoi was found less than a mile off the coast of Ulleung island, at a depth of 1,423 feet in the Sea of Japan. A submersible descended to the wreck and captured an image of the ship's name on the stern in the Cyrillic alphabet. The South Korean Shinil Group, which discovered the wreck, plans to recover the gold sometime later this year with help from companies in China, Canada, and the U.K. At the time of her sinking Donskoi was reportedly carrying 5,500 boxes of gold bars and 200 tons of gold coins with a street value today of $130 billion. That's more than twice Russia's 2017 defense budget, which was $61 billion. If the treasure does materialize, the Russian government will receive half of the recovered amount. The money that's not going to Russia will reportedly be invested in a railroad line linking North Korea, South Korea, and Russia. A small percentage (10%) will also be invested in tourism projects on Ulleungdo Island, including a museum dedicated to the vessel.
I bet $13 billion buys you one hell of a museum.
Why send a ship into battle carrying so much gold?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
If the gold does exist and is recovered, what will so much gold coming onto the market do to the price of gold?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
There were 5,500 boxes of gold bars and 200 tons of gold coins. On a warship. During a war.
If the ship was actually carrying that much gold, it would have been discovered years ago. I'm pretty sure Russia would like to have it back and would have started searching in 1905. And from TFA: 'Although the Shinil Group claims it saw what it thinks was a “treasure box” among the wreckage, there appears to be no confirmation the Donskoi really was carrying the reported treasure'
No, I was pointing out that there wasn't JUST 200 tons of gold coins like the OP thought. There was also 5,500 boxes of gold too. Sorry I triggered you though, snowflake.
Russia has to pay in full for its all its energy use to get from Russia to Japan. A lot of nations on the way would not sell the needed supplies. Russia had to think about having an accepted method to pay along the way.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
They have among the most outrageous ad policies. You can't browse their site with an ad blocker, at all.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
should be easy to find out as their remains should still be pinned to the ocean floor with the Gold Anchors they took with them.
The "battle" was far, far away from Russian and the location of the Russian fleet. The many ships Russian sent to would need to buy what they needed on the way.
The "war" did not work out the way Russian planed for and it had many reasons to "scuttle".
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
yep, given the ship was basically left behind by the fleet and scuttled I would seriously doubt the gold exists. No way they would have left them behind in such a situation, nor are they likely to have put everything in one ship like that, especially a warship that would be targeted by the enemy.
That makes sense. It definitely makes sense to take all that gold along in case you need to buy something. You never know what the price of sushi might be on the way to Japan for instance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The reason why so much coal was needed, the reason why the distances got longer.
"with difficulty obtaining coal for refuelling – as the warships could not legally enter the ports of neutral nations"
"The Russians needed 500,000 short tons (450,000 t) of coal and 30 to 40 re-coaling sessions to reach Cam Ranh Bay."
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Good point. You would need 5,500 boxes of gold and 200 tons of gold coins to pay for all of that coal.
What I don't see is why Russia would let others keep half?
I mean, for one billion they could send navy ships there and say "no" and then what?
It was not just coal from any port along the way. Coal was not getting provided to Russian in any way, for any reason at all the easy to use ports.
That left the few nations able to support the Russian fleet with a way to "set" the price.
Russian could not wait and look for a better price. Russian needed a lot of coal. Russia had to pay.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
The Russian Government is very generous.
Good thing they had 5,500 boxes of gold and 200 tons of gold coins to pay for 500,000 tons of coal. If they had ordered it from Amazon they would have been able to get a better deal though, with free shipping.
It's in Japanese waters.
We kind of have a military base or two nearby.
Yep. And I bet a lot of people would like to set his feet in concrete and send him to the bottom of the ocean also.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
totally on it :)
[($)]
Are you trying to hint someone âoethat sounds like a planâ?
Should have been enough to buy a couple of countries on their way from SpB to Japan...
It wasn't a cargo ship. According to these people it was carrying about 4700 tons of gold. 4700 tons of gold. In 1905. How much mined gold do you think existed on the planet in 1905? Apparently a lot of it was on this ship.
Re 'What I don't see is why Russia would let others keep half?"
To not be Spain. Better to get something on good terms than go full Spain in a court over a transfer of the treasure.
Any salvage company, other nations will then be happy to work with Russian on any new project in the future.
Should Russian need something around the other side of the world in the future a skilled salvage company will remember events like this.
A salvage company will contrast that with what Spain can do.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Besides the 200 tons of gold coins, there were 5,500 boxes of gold. If each box is a cube with a side of 1 foot, it comes out to about $130 billion
Some people still take ACs comments seriously ....
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How much does the 'salvage company' get if Russia receives 50%, tourism 10% and "money that's not going to Russia will reportedly be invested in a railroad line"?
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The Dmitrii Donskoi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... was old when facing new ships Japan was able to buy.
Re "abandoning ship" was not as simple as it sounds. Russia sent all its fleet. Nobody wanted to suggest just sending quality. The Russian navy had to do what it was told and had to send more old and slow ships.
New ships could do 18 knots others 15 knots.
A real mixture of Russian ships then confronted an advanced and ready Japan.
The Dmitrii Donskoi had to support other crews and try and escape. Then try and save its own crew.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
it wasn't a cargo ship, it wasn't travelling between ports. It was on patrol with the fleet and was damaged in the initial battle and then left the fleet to head back to port in Vladivostok which isn't far. It really makes no sense whatsoever to have that much gold on a patrolling warship.
Gold is not immune to inflation. The price of gold has been going down under inflationary pressure lately. Gold, silver and platinum have been dipping since the GOP tax cut bill went into effect. And judging by the volatility, nobody's looking to start buying any time soon.
Gold is basically 19th century Bitcoin.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Why would a single warship be carrying that much gold?
I don't know, maybe to deny the enemy its use in the event of invasion, or to pay someone for materiel? The UK moved huge amounts of gold and other valuables to Canada in warships during World War 2, e.g. Operation Fish. None were sunk but if attacked would have fought.
Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
What I don't see is why Russia would let others keep half?
I mean, for one billion they could send navy ships there and say "no" and then what?
I think it may have something to do with international waters and salvage rights. It may also be an act of diplomacy on the part of the Koreans if the ship was in their waters. Despite having full salvage rights this way they still get a pay day and not piss Russia off, plus a railway, plus a way to ease relations with the other half of their country.
Sounds to me like a win for everyone - good on them.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
No. It was a warship. Warships are designed and built to be warships. Warships sometimes carry cargo, gold was sometimes used in the payment of debts between nations. Warships were used for the security of the shipment. Gold would also be regularly carried to buy goods or services in foreign ports. It might also be used for fleet payroll in foreign ports.
Back in this era there was a devastating earthquake in Italy. The US sent gold to Italy for disaster relief and other humanitarian efforts. Guess how it was shipped, using a warship.
Cargo ships are designed and built to carry cargo. In times of war they may mount a gun on them for self defense but that does not make them warships. Just as cargo does not make a warship a cargo ship.
perhaps if you bothered to research you might learn something. The ship wasn't being escorted, it WAS the escort on a patrol, it really makes little to no sense at all for them to be patrolling with what would probably be the entire countries gold supplies onboard and then even less sense for that ship to then leave the fleet unescorted to head back to port. Every piece of information about its travels and what it was doing makes it highly unlikely that it was carrying any sort of cargo let alone an entire countries gold supply. but we will know soon enough, I suspect they will find very little on the boat but happy to be proven wrong.
He said far far away from Russian. He left out the actual thing. A Russian hat, perhaps?
Or perhaps he meant a Russian. Pretty unlikely, I'd expect there to be at least one in the crew.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
This. The only parallel I can think of from my personal experience is playing Eve online (I know, a keyboard warrior playing an internet spaceship game is not really comparable to actually risking lives in wartime etc) . Heading out on patrol where you may well be in combat with unneccesary valuables in cargo in any kind of vessel (warship OR cargo/supply ship) is quite frankly an insane practice. There's some cliche about never risking anything in battle that you can't afford to lose.
I'm unclear as to why anyone in the Russian admiralty would have loaded tons of gold onto a second-rate warship sailing straight into a battle? And where was it supposed to be carrying the gold *to*?
HMS Edinburgh. Sunk 1942. 4.5 tons of Gold.
There must be an in-soviet-russie joke somewhere.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
The island is reportedly getting a 'small percentage' worth $13 billion. Any thoughts on how I may get residency there?
Math is hard, 0.1% of 1200$ is 1$, not 10$.
Good point. You would need 5,500 boxes of gold and 200 tons of gold coins to pay for all of that coal.
Obviously the coal sellers were using surge pricing :-)
So, when they don't use this 'pee tape' for billions and billions in gold, are you going to stop using the purported existence of said 'tape' to troll this forum?
Who am I kidding?!?
The only ultimate 'losers' are a bunch of US servicemen who will eventually lose their 'gravy deployment' to South Korea to continue the US occuption, after improved relations lead to Korean unification. There's always Germany, I suppose, though things are changing there as well.
If he's posted it several times he is clearly trying to promote it, not refute it.
Oh, my sweet summer child...
Ezekiel 23:20
'Far away from the Russian Dressing on the salad bar' should be sufficient to tone down the TDS hysteria.
Who am I kidding; everyone knows our vital bodily fluids are at stake!
Until someone finds a way to make gold from, say, sea water, gold is one of the rare thing that represents a tangible value - it has its highs and lows but it survives wars and economic crisis.
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It's more likely that you'll die chained to a wall in one of the secret dungeons being constructed at taxpayer expense at Mar-a-Lago. Don't worry, you be in excellent company with Steven Colbert, John Stewart, and Bobby DeNiro. I hear Dick Cheney will be in charge of "enhanced interrogation"...
In Soviet Russia they'll fry your nipples and send you to the gulag?
*rimshot*
Exactly. If the gold did exist and it was on the ship then it's a safe bet that it wasn't on the ship when it was scuttled. Maybe it was a cunning plan to distribute the gold among fleet officers. They report back that the ship was lost and unrecoverable and go on to quietly enjoy their windfall.
Now a century later the wreck has been discovered. Lots of people jump in with a claim on the gold and when none is found, who do they blame?
If that much gold were released into the market, surely the price/weight would decrease, right?
Ballast
Maybe they're waiting for the Russian shipwreck full of platinum?
Because of risk. Salvagers were looking for the ship because it was reported to be carrying a large sum of gold. It may have been. it may have been carrying a lesser sum of gold. It may not have been carrying any gold. The salvagers have only found the wreck of the warship, and by maritime law, couldn't act on it without Russia's permission. Additionally, because of the reported gold on board it's highly probable that the individuals who located the wreck did not give Russia the location of the wreck but just provided evidence that they had found it.
The only improvement to Russia's situation with regard to the ship is that they would know the wreck is intact. They still wouldn't know how much gold is on it or where the ship is located. Russia would need to fund expeditions to locate the wreck and the fund the salvage operation. This would all be done under the assumption of a payout worth $130bn. Russia did the right move. They get half the recovered salvage to a tune $65bn without having to pay anything and if the gold doesn't materialize or the take is considerably less than 130bn then Russia still comes out ahead.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
I said "mined gold" not gold. So I am both semantically and correct correct.
It's pretty straightforward to make gold from sea water. According to Nature, it currently costs about 5x the market value of the gold. On the other hand, you could likely get a bunch of other valuable things at the same time, so that might bring costs down a bit.
Gold's value is it's rarity. It has a bit of intrinsic value for certain industrial uses, but mostly it's because it's shiny.
And the wiki page claims: "In another Operation Fish convoy on 5 July 1940 five ships loaded with $1.7 billion (US$ 29.70 billion in 2018), the largest movement of wealth in history." So a convoy of ships moving $30 billion is the "largest movement of wealth in history" but the Russians load more than four times that amount onto a random coaler headed into a war zone? Just doesn't seem plausible.
Enigma
Not only its rarity, its properties also.
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Re 'What I don't see is why Russia would let others keep half?"
To not be Spain. Better to get something on good terms than go full Spain in a court over a transfer of the treasure.
Any salvage company, other nations will then be happy to work with Russian on any new project in the future.
Should Russian need something around the other side of the world in the future a skilled salvage company will remember events like this.
No. That is definitely not the reason. You are making the classic mistake of applying western reasoning to a government that does not view the world in those terms. I can assure you that Putin and his government have no real long term vision beyond maybe a couple of years, so that's definitely not it.
Much more likely reasons are:
1) Russia knows the odds are really good that the gold isn't there any more (it may have been secretly salvaged by somebody a long time ago) or maybe never was, so they don't want to waste time looking for nothing. But appearing to cooperate allows them to get great positive publicity at what might be literally zero cost to them.
2) The gold exists and they have decided that the railroad project offers them so much benefit that their real motivation is to get the railroad project done at little or not real cost to them. Shipping goods from South Korea via railroad into Russia instead of by ship might be useful to Russia.
Other than shininess, those properties are the "certain industrial uses." But industrial use doesn't drive the price of gold currently. If people got tired of the shiny, then the price would fall to a level that was driven by actual intrinsic value.
Diamond is a good example of this, because you can't just melt down small crappy diamonds to make big nice ones. Industrial diamonds are pretty cheap, while big gem quality diamonds are orders of magnitude more expensive.
Russia is somewhat larger than the UK. If they wanted to stop invaders from getting something simply moving it to the other end of the country would be more than adequate.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Besides the 200 tons of gold coins, there were 5,500 boxes of gold bars. I have no idea how much that comes out to.
A "standard" gold bar weighs in at 12.4kg or 27.3lbs. Not sure how many are in a box but at minimum it's a few hundred shittons of gold.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Not if they're the Cybermen from Doctor Who; they're allergic to it.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Other than shininess
resistance to oxidation
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Typical cargo tonnage of most warships at any point in history is close to bugger all. You cram every inch that isn't guns or engines with ammo and fuel. Fortunately half the crew are working at any given time because there isn't room for them all to even sit down at once, let alone sleep.
According to TFA this here Donuts Donaldski was a cruiser. Given that WW2 cruisers were typically under 10,000 tons the thing probably weighed half that *in total*.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Actually, it was a Korean firm that released the 200 ton number, so it was likely 200 metric tons.
http://www.ajudaily.com/view/2...
To get an idea of just how big a pile of BS this story is, the Donskoi was a pre-dreadnaught armoured cruiser, with one tenth the displacement of an actual battleship (Iowa class), and less than a modern (Arleigh Burke) destroyer. The amount of gold in Fort Knox is about the same order of magnitude as what's claimed in the story (depending on how much you believe is in there and what it's currently worth per ounce and what the story is actually claming was on the Donskoi, handwaving a bit here to avoid a huge long debate and calling it "same order of magnitude").
So we have to believe that Imperial Russia loaded a Fort Knox' worth of gold that they didn't have into a (modern) destroyer-class ship, equipped it with early Tardis technology to handle the volume and mass involved, and sent it to the other side of the world, only to scuttle it when Japanese ships came near.
Someone's running a significant salvage scam here...
*Actually, we can't, as it was sold to the Chinese.
Have gnu, will travel.
Spraypaint's not for "recreational use," dude.
That's like saying if the Earth was made of cheese, then the price of food would fall to a level that was driven by actual intrinsic value.
A multi-millenia track record indicates that people aren't going to get tired of the shiny. Jewelry value isn't going to go away and leave only "industrial use" value.
I can assure you that Putin and his government have no real long term vision beyond maybe a couple of years, so that's definitely not it.
I disagree with this assessment. I argue that countries like China, Russia, and North Korea tend to look more long term then our representatives, who seem to only care about the time between now and the next election cycle. Here in the U.S. we do have the Supreme Court Justices who I believe do consider the long term ramifications but you're selling these other countries short to assume they only care about the short term.
If you have not seen it, I recommend watching "Rules for Rulers" by CGPGray. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
It's based on a book, "The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics" https://www.amazon.com/Dictato...
These have helped me not get so angry at politics in general and has given me a much better understanding as to why different leaders do what they do.
Nah, jewelry cleaners are pretty inexpensive. I think the owners of expensive jewelry actually enjoy cleaning it from time to time anyway.
I don't recall saying that it would. The operative word in my sentence, which you quoted, is *if*.
However, the fact that the value of gold is extrinsic does mean that it might not respond to supply and demand as might be expected. If some space mining company dropped a megaton of gold on the market the value would drop, but gold's rarity would also be severely reduced. Everyone could walk around wearing as much gold as they wanted. The price might fall more than otherwise expected due to the loss of cachet. Again, diamonds are a good example (except in reverse) where DeBeers specifically limited the supply of gem quality diamonds in order to keep the value very high, while at the same time providing an unrestricted supply of industrial diamond.
Also note that a "multi-millenia track record" doesn't mean much in the face of new technology or supplies. Glass was once extremely highly valued (for jewelry). Once we figured out how to make it nobody valued it very much for it's shiny decorative properties. Likewise, aluminum was far more valuable than gold and used for jewelry, but now that we can make as much as we want nobody wears it much.
Whatever the outcome of this ship salvage, I really hope that railway project gets built. The one peaceful way to demolish North Korea and unify the peninsula would be wide-open free trade. Once the NK common folk see what they have been missing all these years, North Korea will dissolve faster than East Germany.
Also note that a "multi-millenia track record" doesn't mean much in the face of new technology or supplies.
And my point was that "assume a spherical cow" is a terrible argument when discussing behavioral economics. Adding more spherical cows does not improve it.
The aliens agreed not to return until all people were of one race. Some people took that to mean that they are waiting on one race to conquer the others (Germans, Zionists, etc) but they are really waiting until we have all interbred to the point where no geographically distinguishing features exist. It is going to be a while.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
No. No. No. If we need to get through your country with our oil you can count yourself fucked as well.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
And then the salvage specialists say "Fuck you" and sail away and the treasure stays on the bottom.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Why would a single warship be carrying that much gold?
The "gold" is actually just a cover story.
Dirk Pitt and Al Giordino are actually looking for the secret stash of byzanium that is rumoured to be on board.
And clearly the lack of a railway is what's preventing that. They like totally want to do a customs union and all that, but it just can't possibly work with roads & trucks.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
If an oil tanker has a sack of letters on it does that make it a mail boat?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Spherical cows and cheese... maybe you have some local diary product brand with gold in the name? I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
It is mono-atomic and uncorruptable. Most likely the aliens just convert it to powder and eat it.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Se...
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
According to standard media protocol in regard to politicians they would never run such a story. The consensus is to avoid personal stories about politicians. For example, if they discovered that a politician had a drug/alcohol problem they would not report on it...especially if they were in a treatment program. I was surprised to learn about this long ago.
I can see a Gawker type running with it though none of the other major outlets would back them with a follow up.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Look at it another way. HMS Dreadnought was launched soon after and was the biggest baddest battleship in the world at that point. Normal load, 18,120 tons, 20,730 long tons at deep load giving 2,610 to play with.
I can't find a definition of normal load but let's assume it includes optional little luxuries like fuel, booze, crew, ammunition and more booze. You'd still need two of the buggers to carry that much.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Dude...I'm about to take out a loan and jet there myself...what do you mean: "don't want to waste time." It is over 1400 ft deep. Not a trivial recovery. Lots of professionals and equipment required and people could still die.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Great...I can see you have a handle on the US point of view...now carefully turn your gaze and consider the other.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Given that the Soviets expropriated foreign owned property, rejected the claims of bond holders against the Imperial Russian government, and can be argued to owe the victims of their invasions in Eastern Europe billions, one can hope that it will be tied up in court indefinitely. Sadly I suspect this won't happen.
I just tested your hypothesis and tried to buy a MacBook Pro with gold bars. They laughed me out of the Apple Store.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Are you suggesting Donald Trump should be in treatment for his pee problem?
I'm not really sure what "media protocol" has to do with a foreign government having compromising dirt on a US president for the purpose of blackmail.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Is this the ship full of gold from the movie Black Sea, or the one from the book Cryptonomicon?
Russia is the successor state to the Soviet Union, and the ship being a naval vessel rather than a private merchant ship continues to belong to them even after it is sunk. These are both well-established concepts in international law (and also the basis for the Spanish case relating to that galleon).
It could if only [takes off shoes & socks] 2100 tons of the ship was iron & steel.
This would also explain why it sank.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Actually it's probably be easier to make gold out of technitium, with maybe a pinch of hydrogen just to round out the flavour.
Do you prefer Cherry or Watermelon flavor for your Hatorade?
Who did?
Ken
NATO's articles of constitution preclude a "first strike". It is an organisation of mutual self-defence. Not of communal offence.
Are you one of Trump's international relations advisors?
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"