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Five Eyes Intelligence Alliance Argues 'Privacy is Not Absolute' in Push For Encryption Backdoors (itnews.com.au)

The Five Eyes, the intelligence alliance between the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, issued a statement warning they believe "privacy is not absolute" and tech companies must give law enforcement access to encrypted data or face "technological, enforcement, legislative or other measures to achieve lawful access solutions." Slashdot reader Bismillah shares a report: The governments of Australia, United States, United Kingdom, Canada and New Zealand have made the strongest statement yet that they intend to force technology providers to provide lawful access to users' encrypted communications. At the Five Country Ministerial meeting on the Gold Coast last week, security and immigration ministers put forward a range of proposals to combat terrorism and crime, with a particular emphasis on the internet. As part of that, the countries that share intelligence with each other under the Five-Eyes umbrella agreement, intend to "encourage information and communications technology service providers to voluntarily establish lawful access solutions to their products and services." Such solutions will apply to products and services operated in the Five-Eyes countries which could legislate to compel their implementation. "Should governments continue to encounter impediments to lawful access to information necessary to aid the protection of the citizens of our countries, we may pursue technological, enforcement, legislative or other measures to achieve lawful access solutions," the Five-Eyes joint statement on encryption said.

194 of 421 comments (clear)

  1. If I were them by reiterate · · Score: 1

    I'd say "please".

    1. Re: If I were them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It seems like it would be in the best interest of these companies to leak these backdoors that way they can patch them immediately and prevent law enforcement from using them for long. Drag their feet on giving them another backdoor. Then rinse and repeat.

    2. Re: If I were them by reiterate · · Score: 1

      Right? Or any number of measures. I don't know how much power the NSA can bring to bear on this issue but as far as I'm aware the actual policy makers have less than an inkling of how any of this shit works in the first place.

    3. Re: If I were them by v1 · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine they are thinking more about government installed and run back doors, not finding zero-days. Like what the phone co uses.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    4. Re: If I were them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately the force of law is absolute and apparently trumps the law of physics. Am I the only one here rolling my eyes at the Five Eyes? The reason that cluster exists is TO SKIRT THEIR OWN LAWS. The governments are breaking their own laws by unlawfully obtaining information by proxy. That way they can claim someone else provided the information and they weren't actually spying on their own people.

      After that there isn't really any point having laws and they become a pure tool of oppression.

      Lo and behold though, the cost of the fraud they enable via these backdoors will be passed on to the citizenry. I don't think we can do anything about it now though, you can't vote against an international council. That's basically "we understand your objections but fuck you".

    5. Re: If I were them by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is no such thing as a "government only" backdoor. At the very least, it's not YOUR government-only for long. Backdoors allowing decryption of data are the holy grail of espionage. You think actors like North Korea would have any qualms of hijacking your wife and kids if you're holder of such a key to get you to hand it over? Not that they survive, mind you, you're killed alongside them but the key is in the hands of NKor afterwards. And that key is the key to your companies' trade secrets, their R&D, their development and yes, your cutting edge weapon technology.

      Aside of that direct damage to your economy, there's the indirect one. Because no company on this planet will store their data with you. They'll send that data abroad. If need be, to Iran or even China, if that's the last place where it's safe from your laws. You are essentially destroying your data storage industry with such a law.

      And in the end, you don't even accomplish anything with it. Because what will you get. A few felons with some trivial charges you can tack onto them. You will catch exactly zero terrorists with it. As soon as this becomes law, they will simply shift to the next variant of hiding from you. They have one asset you do not have: Manpower. They have access to cheap manpower. If everything fails, you'll see them use written messages transported via sneakernet again.

      I know it's tempting to think that this is the way ahead. But at best it's useless. At worst, and way more likely, it's an economic disaster.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re: If I were them by Z80a · · Score: 1

      Oi mate, we're here to install this wooden door at your house that only WE have the key and nobody else! (tm)

    7. Re: If I were them by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Any backdoor means bye-bye to online financial transactions.
      No bank is going to be able to protect itself from being infiltrated and with money siphoned off.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    8. Re: If I were them by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Could you please hurry, I got the cement already mixed to close the hole you're about to leave there.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re: If I were them by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Try to argue this with the government.

      An argument telling them that their enemy is the net beneficiary of their action is way more compelling.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  2. Citizens argue that power of government... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... is not absolute.

    1. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They're wrong.

    2. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution:
       

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,

      English is my first language. This seems pretty clear to me.

      You want access to data (encrypted or not) on my my potentially locked phone? Get a warrant! (If I still refuse to unlock and/or decrypt it after that then find me in contempt of court and jail me.

      Now if only the gun nuts – who are so vocal about their Second Amendment rights when someone tries to tell them they shouldn't have AKs and M15s and bump stocks, or that there ought to be better background checks – were as vocal about "protecting" this Constitutional Right.

      (By all means, keep your Saturday Night Specials, shotguns, and 22 and 30-06 rifles. "We" don't have a problem with people having those, with proper background checks.)

      And whoever is perpetrating the myth the the Minutemen at Lexington and Concord had Gatling Guns? Knock that shit off. And the rest of you that believe it – because it fits your narrative – shame on you. They had muzzle loading flintlocks. That's it. The Gatling gun wasn't invented until the 1861, in time for the Civil war. If you don't know the difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War then it's back to eighth grade history for you.

    3. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And you–– You are part of the problem. You apparently don't even know what your rights are.

      Can they? Sure they can. And without the warrant, and without something really compelling in the way of probable cause they're going to be be in a world of hurt after I'm done suing them.

      I'm not cooking meth, I'm not dealing drugs. I'm not fencing stolen goods. I've never had police come to my door, knock, and ask to come in and search the premises. If they do, I'm going to politely suggest that they come back with a warrant. I'll even stand there at the door with officer while his or her partner goes and gets the warrant.

      This is basic eighth grace civics stuff. Please educate yourself. It's for your own good.

    4. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by PPH · · Score: 1

      Or at least King Charles I wishes they were.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      Study some history, there were fully automatic weapons available at the time (like the Belton Flintlocks, Pickle gun, Griandoni air rifles etc) some of which had ammo capacities higher than 20 rounds (like the Girandoni air rifles etc). You are just completely ignorant of historical facts and the entire point of the Second Amendment. The point being it is there to allow people the means to protect themselves from threats both foreign and domestic. That is to literally say that they should have the same equipment as the agents of the government... Get your head out of your a##e.

    6. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      What about when they've got a warrant or probably cause and they come while you're not home?

    7. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by viperidaenz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or they'll just enjoy having a 5x lower murder rate than USA.

    8. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      Which had increased as a result of the stricter gun laws...

    9. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      They had muzzle loading flintlocks. That's it. The Gatling gun wasn't invented until the 1861, in time for the Civil war. If you don't know the difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War then it's back to eighth grade history for you.

      They didn't have gatling guns.

      BUT repeating arms had been around since before the first British colony was established since 1606. They were just very expensive, that's all.

      A fully automatic gun, called the "Puckle Gun" was invented in 1708. Here's a replica of it.

      They didn't "not exist", they were just not affordable by your average army.

      They were certainly known about by the founding fathers at the time the Constitution was written. So yeah... the guys who wrote the second amendment knew about repeating and even automatic guns.

    10. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      By the way: the Chinese made a repeating crossbow 4 centuries before Christ was born.

      You just pulled the trigger, cranked the lever, and pulled the trigger again.

    11. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      That was long ago. Now, there are more guns in Australia (and even a higher % of population with guns) than before the mandatory buy-back.

    12. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      The SC has ruled the second amendment is not limited to arms in use when it was written. This is why anti-taser laws are being overturned left and right.

      People who suggest otherwise are already wrong when the words pass their lips.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    13. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by jpaine619 · · Score: 4, Informative

      (By all means, keep your Saturday Night Specials, shotguns, and 22 and 30-06 rifles. "We" don't have a problem with people having those, with proper background checks.)

      And whoever is perpetrating the myth the the Minutemen at Lexington and Concord had Gatling Guns? Knock that shit off. And the rest of you that believe it – because it fits your narrative – shame on you. They had muzzle loading flintlocks. That's it. The Gatling gun wasn't invented until the 1861, in time for the Civil war. If you don't know the difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War then it's back to eighth grade history for you.

      You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the 2nd Amendment is about personal defense.

      IT IS NOT

      The Second Amendment was specifically written so that the people had the means and the ability to revolt and overthrow the government if it turned tyrannical.

      This is not opinion. This is written fact. Given this, do you think the framers did not intend for us to keep up with the same advances that the government has access to?

      We had just been through a long and bloody war that involved overthrowing an oppressive government.. The last thing the framers wanted was another oppressive government.

      If you take a look at the Bill of Rights, almost every single item in it tells the government what it CANNOT do, with the exception of Amendment 6 which says to the people "If the government tries you, you get all of these rights" and Amendment 9 which says "We listed some of your rights, but not all of them, and you still retain those we didn't write down"

      Everything else (1-5,7-10) tells the government it is specifically forbidden from doing things.. Congress shall make no law.....Shall not be infringed....No soldier shall....No warrants shall issue....No person shall be held to answer.....No fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined....Excessive bail shall not be required.....

      #9 is one of my favorites and it's one that most people seem to have forgotten about...

      The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

      In lay terms... Certain rights that the people possess have been listed here.. But they have other rights that we didn't write down...Because we didn't write them down doesn't mean they don't exist.. In fact...

      The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

      The only powers that the federal government has are the ones we DID write down. If we didn't write them down, then the power belongs to the state or the people, NOT the Federal Government. This one is so ignored.... To get around this one, the Supreme Court has twisted every meaning of the other parts of the Constitution.

      Regardless of how you may interpret the 2nd Amendment, the guy that helped to write it wrote down his thoughts.. It is his interpretation that matters, and this is what he had to say on the subject:

      "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct th

    14. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Second Amendment was specifically written so that the people had the means and the ability to revolt and overthrow the government if it turned tyrannical.

      And that was a flaw, in hindsight. I'll get modded to oblivion for saying that, but the reality is that an armed uprising against the government is impossible these days.

      Other countries design their democracies to prevent tyranny and to create strong mechanisms for holding the government to account and removing it if it gets that bad. That's the only realistic open, especially in a country the size of the US.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    15. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      You should be able to, at the time people were allowed to own warships which would at least be equivalent to a few rocket launchers.

    16. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      Well strange that such a gun rich environment netted lower crime rates than immediately after the buyback... No matter how you break it down all evidence points to restrictions being irrelevant to the crime rate.

    17. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by gtall · · Score: 4, Funny

      To get the gun nuts interested in the fourth amendment, you just need to package in language they can understand: The Deep State wants access to your cell phones so they can spy on your use of guns...and Hillary is behind this push so she can cover her tracks in Benghazi, where she'd jet off to for intimate lunches with al Qaeda. And she and Obama are planning for a Muslim America by accessing your phone and planting secret subliminal messages from the Koran.

    18. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      And you clearly don't understand how sentences work. Even forgetting that the meaning of the words excluded your interpretation and also forgetting that the people who wrote the amendment explicitly said, in writing and verbally, that you are wrong. The sentence itself denies your interpretation, the 'well regulated' part is the justification clause of the sentence and bears absolutely no relevance to the content clause which states an individual right that can not be infringed. Sentence structure for the win!

    19. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 2

      Except the entire point is that being armed prevents them from becoming tyrannical due to people being able to shoot any potential Hitler before they get powerful or by making people choose not to join up because of the massive amount of bloodshed necessary to take over. Get your head out of your arse and stop listening to ignorant braindead leftists

    20. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by tinkerton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Very basic and to the point. People should be reminded that 9/11 (not the car, the bowling with planes) happened not because intelligence had too little power but because they weren't doing their job. They were busy with the war on drugs and with keeping things secret from each other. But since then the constant mantra has been 'We need more power!' and they've been getting away with it too.

    21. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by adrn01 · · Score: 1

      Study some history, there were fully automatic weapons available at the time (like the Belton Flintlocks, Pickle gun, Griandoni air rifles etc) some of which had ammo capacities higher than 20 rounds (like the Girandoni air rifles etc).

      Those would have all been fabulously expensive hand-made weapons, and therefore not something that would generally have been available to even rich citizens, let alone the general populace.
      From Wikipedia:
      "Despite having a remarkably fast fire rate for the time, the Kalthoff could never have become a standard military firearm because of its cost. The mechanism had to be assembled with skill and care, and took far more time to assemble than an ordinary muzzle-loader. Also, all the parts were interdependent; if a gear broke or jammed, the whole gun was unusable and only a specialist gunsmith could repair it. It needed special care; powder fouling, or even powder that was slightly wet, could clog it. Since it was so expensive to buy and maintain, only wealthy individuals and elite soldiers could afford it.

      The Royal Foot Guards of Denmark were issued with about a hundred of these guns, and they are thought to have been used in the Siege of Copenhagen (1658-59) and the Scanian War. Others were ordered for private use or for demonstration."

      It should be noted that this gun was in NO WAY an automatic weapon, it was a semi-automatic that required a lever to be worked to reload for each shot. Likewise, the Puckle (not Pickle) gun also required each shot to be manually rotated into place, having been loaded into a giant brass cylinder.

    22. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except the entire point is that being armed prevents them from becoming tyrannical due to people being able to shoot any potential Hitler before they get powerful

      That filed to help Germany (guns were not uncommon at the time, private ownership was legal) and it failed to stop the US getting to where it is now.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    23. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      (By all means, keep your Saturday Night Specials, shotguns, and 22 and 30-06 rifles. "We" don't have a problem with people having those, with proper background checks.)

      And we don't have problems with YOU having a "Right to Privacy". After an appropriate background check, of course. And at the discretion of local law enforcement wherever you happen to live. Or visit. Or just pass through....

      Ditto for Freedom of Speech/Press/etc. Once you've gotten the approval of local law enforcement in every location that can HEAR/READ what you want to say, then you should be allowed to say/print what you like. Until then, you can shut up and do as you're told....

      So, why do you think an appropriate background check is applicable to Rights you don't like, but totally uncalled for for Rights you like?

      As to flintlocks, it should be pointed out that the Second allowed everyone to own MILITARY-GRADE weapons (yeah, the flintlocks owned by the average citizen were pretty much the same as what the Army was using. Hell, since rifled guns were common among the citizenry, and only issued to special troops (most soldiers used smoothbores), it could be argued that the Second allowed better then military grade weapons to be freely owned.

      For that matter, does the word "privateer" mean anything to you? Yep, those privately owned warships were armed with perfectly legal cannon. At a time when cannon were the most powerful weapons known to man....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    24. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by swillden · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'll get modded to oblivion for saying that, but the reality is that an armed uprising against the government is impossible these days.

      Given the long-demonstrated success of lightly-armed guerrilla insurgencies against modern military forces, that might not be true even if the military stayed united, obeyed the government and were willing to fire on its fellow citizens. But it's very likely that in the event of an armed uprising a substantial portion of the military would join it and an even larger portion would simply refuse to fight. Plus, it's obvious that a first goal of an insurgency would be to use their civilian arms to obtain military arms, whether by liberating arms from the US military (with, undoubtedly, some assistance from members of the military) or just by lasting long enough to convince enemies of the US to supply them.

      Bottom line, tens of millions of US citizens armed with hundreds of millions of civilian arms have a reasonable chance of success of overthrowing the government if they have competent organization, leadership and communications.

      Note that I think civil war is the worst possible way to replace bad government, not least because with rare exceptions revolutionaries are very bad at devising a good government to replace the bad one. But I think it's important that we retain the option as a last resort.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    25. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1, Troll

      To get the gun nuts interested in the fourth amendment, you just need to package in language they can understand: The Deep State wants access to your cell phones so they can spy on your use of guns...and Hillary is behind this push so she can cover her tracks in Benghazi, where she'd jet off to for intimate lunches with al Qaeda. And she and Obama are planning for a Muslim America by accessing your phone and planting secret subliminal messages from the Koran.

      You pretty much nailed it.

      But then again, the second amendment isn't of any concern to the actual gun nuts.

      "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Seems odd that these presumed adherents don't even want background checks. It's kind of difficult to imagine their well regulated militia - which well regulated militia is the very core of the second amendment - is open to any and all violent criminals.

      Seems odd that these folks are not agitating for access to all of the weapons accorded to their enemies the government, to include planes, tanks and nuclear weapons.

      I use and enjoy firearms, and own a number of different weapons. My favorite activity is target shooting, which provides incredible relaxation. The again, I don't have to worry about failing a background check. But I digress

      The second amendment was written at a time when the farmers and the governments armaments were not all that different. A group of farmers would be lacking cannons, but the basic firearms were very similar, and in a few instances the farmers had better rifles.

      Now my interpretation of the second amendment is based on the wording. There should be a well regulated civilian militia. This means that people who are trustworthy and willing to comply with regulations are welcome to join. And just like any military or paramilitary organization, that includes intense vetting.

      The second thing is that citizens in general will understand and practice the responsibility of firearm use along with the right to own them. I've seen too many Youtube videos of irresponsible firearm use.

      The gun nuts speak endlessly about their rights, yet so many document their irresponsibility. These aren't toys ,kids. These are devices designed specifically to kill.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    26. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by L.+J.+Beauregard · · Score: 1

      So fucking what? A mob of armed lunatics is neither well-regulated nor well-trained.

      --
      Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
      Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
    27. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      You just pulled the trigger, cranked the lever, and pulled the trigger again.

      If you have to crank the lever in between trigger pulls, it's not automatic. In fact, it's not even semi-automatic.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    28. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Sorry.

      You are posting a AC which means you have no profile for me to examine.

      Had you alerted us that you lack a sense of humour ... nah.

      I think "po po" is funny, kinda like "weasel wart."

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    29. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by laird · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, the 2nd Amendment was written so that the People could form a citizen army to defend the country (i.e. the state guards), to prevent the formation of a standing army. The Founders opposed the US having a standing army, as it would corrupt the Democracy.

      The Founders also were quite clear that they didn't think that civilians had the right to military oppose their own elected government. When people tried, the Founders labeled that treason, but the rebellion down, and arrested and/or executed the the traitors. If you don't like what our government is doing, you have free speech and the vote. If you can't make a case, and you lose the vote, you don't have the "right" to start shooting at the majority who voted against you.

    30. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Right here. Apparently, you think the "You're fat," button still works.

      That's so high school like, "You must be gay."

      Xanax, when used as directed, is a safe and effective palindrome.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    31. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      If you can't make a case, and you lose the vote, you don't have the "right" to start shooting at the majority who voted against you.

      Sorry but you fail basic civics. I suspect you know this, but our form of government was specifically set up to prevent the tyranny of the majority. You have the absolute moral right to shoot at the majority who attempt to strip you of your basic human rights.

      I'll go back to slavery for this, as it serves as a good example. Was it ever immoral for a slave to kill his/her master/owner? I think, or at least hope, that we both agree that the answer to this is "no". That slave had the absolute right to freedom. Killing those who would deny it to him, through force and chains, was never wrong.

      Most of the time, maybe all of the time, those revolts were put down and the slaves were killed.... by an evil majority. But the slave who revolted was NEVER in the wrong. Had they been able to organize, maybe the outcome would have been different. There's a reason slaves were FORBIDDEN to learn to read...

      As I, and several others, have stated guns are for revolting against a tyrannical government not a government you disagree with. I don't think anyone is calling for the overthrow of a government that is simply inefficient, or run by morons, or even corrupt. But, when they start sending out the goons to lock up people for political speech then maybe we've gotten to a new point.

      I don't think we're there yet. But, we are certainly getting close. We can probably still fix this through the normal processes, but if we don't get a handle on it soon, we are going to have some serious issues in the future.

      As the Snowden documents make blindingly clear, we have a government that is on track to tyranny. It's maybe not even so much the elected officials, but the non-elected bureaucracy. The assholes that have high level jobs in the government for decades, if not longer.

      I think we're all familiar with J. Edgar Hoover and how he kept files and blackmailed EVERYONE, from Presidents to Senators to Judges. You don't think that was an abuse of government power? We had to wait for that fucker to die. Nobody had the balls to oppose him.

      Once the guns are gone, we aren't getting them back. I'd rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them. Besides, they do have the side-effect of being around for personal defense. But that is just a positive side effect.

    32. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with everything the man does, but can you please give me an example of his tyranny? What has he done, specifically, that you consider tyranny?

      I really do want to know.

      What laws has he signed or promoted that have impinged on your basic human rights? I have never called for the overthrow of a government that is inefficient or run by morons. I reserve the right to revolt for when the government goes tyrannical. I.E, when they start sending out the police to round up people for political speech, as one example.

    33. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      'Look at me I am so Fing stupid I think nukes is a valid counterexample!' The point is to have the same weapons the government has, if you can think of an argument as to why a person shouldn't have a bike it applies equally to the government.... Get your head out of your arse you complete fing ftard

    34. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      1. The puckle gun is an example of a firearm that is visually identical to a Gatling gun. It is the device that people regularly mistake as such and explains the erroneous statement that Gatling guns were at Concord. 2. The Belton Flintlocks and the Girandoni air rifles were fully automatic. One squeeze of the trigger resulted in more than one projectile being fired. 3. The Girandoni air rifle had a hopper containing 22 balls which, when fully primed it could expell between 3 and 5 full hoppers before being reprimed. 4. The founding fathers were not on aware of these developments but were fans of them and attempted to buy the Belton Flintlocks long before writing the Second Amendment. 5. They outfitted the Lewis and Clark expedition with Girandoni air rifles... 6. Private peopl owned cannons, artillery, and warships. All of these were vastly note expensive than any of the rifles mentioned. 7. The second amendment does not exclude weapons of any price... Therefore there were fully automatic weapons available when they wrote the Constitution. There were weapons that can be described as Gatling guns. There were weapons that were not 'muzzle loaded'. There were weapons with an ammo capacity greater than 10 rounds. So everything I said is true and every such claim of the original poster is false. Additionally the Founding Fathers understood technology would change and that such weapons would get better and cheaper (as had so many things in their own lifetimes) they made no exclusions... No run along little troll your lies are exposed.

    35. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      Freedom of speech does not exist in Australia. Freedom to defend yourself does not exist in Australia. Do you want me to continue?

    36. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      Everything but a revolver (which can still act like a semi-automatic), bolt or lever action firearm is semi-automatic. Get your head out of your arse.

    37. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      Germany had multiple laws that prevented the private ownership of firearms. The Nazi party lifted that ban, for those that were 'good Germans'. This meant that all privately owned weapons were in the hands of Nazi party supporters and not owned by many who would disagree. Study some history...

    38. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      An armed populace will stop them getting to that stage. Additionally the military won't want to walk through their own country shooting civilians and would, most likely, revolt if ordered to (and definitely do so if ordered to bomb them). So get your head out of your arse and try thinking for a change.

    39. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      How is he a wannabe tyrant? So far he has reduced government power, wouldn't he be doing to opposite of he wanted to be a tyrant?

    40. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I didn't say automatic. I said repeating.

      A six-gun is a repeating arm, but it's not an automatic.

    41. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

    42. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      I understand your confusion, but this was also addressed in the Federalist Papers. Words change over time. You have to go back and see what they meant at the time.

      Regulated _at the time_ meant well trained. That's what it meant.. People were expected to practice with their guns & keep them in good working order. Back then, the Army, and maybe even local law enforcement, could be several days away from where a problem was. People were expected to handle things themselves.

      The security of a free state... Well, according to Madison, this was keeping yourself free. If the government spun out of control, it was expected that the local militias would unite with State or County forces, under the leadership of a state or county official and fight. This occurred several times during the Civil War. There were all sorts of militias running around that were not under the authority of the Federal Government (North or South). I think the closest modern equivalent would be the Partisans of WW2.

      What a lot of our fellow citizens have forgotten is that, at the time the constitution was drafted, the Federal Government was weak.. Quite deliberately. Nobody wanted a super strong national government.. Concentration of power and all that jazz...

      The Fed was prohibited from having a standing army (those tend to be used against the populace). It was expected that during a national crisis, we'd raise an army, go kick some ass, and then the army would be disbanded. Our history shows that this was the case right up until the end of World War 1.

      We've moved away from that, and I get it.. Wars today are quite technical and sometimes rapid.. Not enough time to train people to drive a tank if you are being invaded.

      Long story short... Madison intended the militias to be composed of normal people who practiced and kept their guns in working order. They were expected to be a bulwark against a National Government that had spun out of control. They were also intended to be a first line of defense, should we be invaded as there would certainly be some span of time before the Army could arrive.

    43. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      Fantastic example. Thank you.

    44. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      Sorry buddy, but I choose not to be a defeatist. You, by your own words, clearly are. Yeah, shit right now sucks.. but it can get a lot fucking worse.. Hopefully we still have the time and the will to reverse this course.. It's going to be damned hard if the majority of our population is as spineless as your sniveling ass.

      Why do I suspect you'd have been a collaborator in WW2?

    45. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      You are a fucking liar. I mean that quite seriously. You have an agenda and you're willing to lie to further it.. Right or wrong, a couple of years ago a bunch of armed ranchers basically told the government to fuck off. They stood their ground. The debate isn't if they were right or wrong.. But what they did is in absolute opposition to what you claim.

      They didn't back down. They didn't cower in fear. You project your own cowardice on the population. Your propaganda is transparent.. Keep repeating "gun nuts"..

      You are a massive pussy.

    46. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      Go read the goddamn Federalist Papers. These were the notes that Madison kept at the time the Constitution was being written. They are a collection of notes and letters he wrote to other founders (Jefferson, Franklin, etc). He explains a lot of the reasoning and logic they were applying WHILE THEY WERE WRITING THE DOCUMENT.

      I've already taken the time to post his excerpt on the 2nd, and it is in direct opposition to what you claim.

      So keep ignoring the facts, stick your fingers in your ears, and hum...

    47. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      Yes, that is exactly what they wanted. Hence the second amendment...

    48. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      Except the founding fathers explicitly stated, in writing and verbally, that the second amendment guaranteed the private ownership of arms to protect the people against government. Read the federalist papers, read the debates dureing the ratification of the Constitution, read the writings of the fu*king founding fathers. Your argument is bullsh*t and you are a complete Fu*king retard c*nt. I hope you get cancer and die a slow painful and lingering death...

    49. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      It was originally justified with the human right to self defense. The protection under the law was justified by the fact government could disarm the people and violate that right.

    50. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Or they'll just enjoy having a 5x lower murder rate than USA.

      You are saying that having a lower chance of being murdered is worth any tyranny that can be visited upon you by a government.

      Not all governments are benign. My favorite example is WW2 German government; although a better example is the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia.

      To be fair, at this point in time, the Australian government is benign enough; but if you look at history, all systems of government become tyrannical, so essentially, you are trading freedom from murder at this point in time for the wholesale slaughter of your descendants at some point in the future.

      You are welcome to make whatever choice you want, but I will call your choice a cowardly one. You want your safety NOW regardless of the safety of your descendants. I can understand your choice, but know that it is a cowardly choice.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    51. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      I'm bald headed.

      Go.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    52. Re:Citizens argue that power of government... by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      Now if only the gun nuts â" who are so vocal about their Second Amendment rights when someone tries to tell them they shouldn't have AKs and M15s and bump stocks, or that there ought to be better background checks â" were as vocal about "protecting" this Constitutional Right.

      That's a pretty easy game to play: Now if only privacy nuts -- who are so vocal about their Fourth Amendment rights when someone tells them they shouldn't have encryption on their communications were as vocal about "protecting" the Second Amendment. You make the incorrect assumption that people who are vocal about one right aren't concerned about others.

      And whoever is perpetrating the myth the the Minutemen at Lexington and Concord had Gatling Guns? Knock that shit off. And the rest of you that believe it -- because it fits your narrative -- shame on you.

      I have never in my life heard anyone make this argument, so as far as I can tell, the only perpetuating it is you. I also don't know anyone who is a gun rights supporter who would believe this if they heard it.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    53. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Does your paranoia keep you awake at night?

    54. Re: Citizens argue that power of government... by Brujis · · Score: 1

      1. It is protected by the second amendment. 2. I can kill you with a knife, or a piece of wood, or a rock. Should these be banned? If your answer is not an emphatic yes then you recognize your argument is flawed. If you answer yes the you are irrational and you should be ignored. Logic for the win.

  3. 'Privacy is Not Absolute' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sure thing guys, you first.

    1. Re: 'Privacy is Not Absolute' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Pass an amendment requiring full open financial information on all elected officials and their family members, spouse & children... then we can find out how $65,000 a year democrats purchase $4.5 million dollar homes, while unemployment and homelessness & heroin floods their districts...

    2. Re: 'Privacy is Not Absolute' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      how $65,000 a year democrats purchase $4.5 million dollar homes.

      I guess someone is not watching the news. This is a politics problem, not a democrat / republican problem.

    3. Re: 'Privacy is Not Absolute' by caseih · · Score: 1

      Thank goodness Republicans are beyond reproach and come by their money honestly! But seriously, this is a very good idea. I'm unsure how wide a net to cast. Many elected people at local level donate much of their time to the public cause, perhaps receiving a per diem, and still maintain other forms of income (day jobs). Is that honest and legal? Depends on what the elected job is I suppose.

    4. Re: 'Privacy is Not Absolute' by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      The notion of paying elected officials largely evolved because political patronage often meant those elected members were little more than paid votes. The theory was that if you paid a lawmaker a good salary his primary debt of obligation would be to the voters. It certainly made things better (read how corrupt MPs could be in Britain in the 17th and 18th centuries) but of course there's always more money to be made being a paid shill for some moneyed interest or another.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re: 'Privacy is Not Absolute' by jpaine619 · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's easy.. Congress specifically exempted themselves from insider trading laws. That's one way they make so much money...

      Yeah.. Seriously... They can decide they are going to give your company some huge government contract, run out an buy a shitload of your stock, and then announce you got the contract.. Then they can sell the stock and...PARTY TIME.

      It was legal for a long time.. then there was a public outcry and they passed a law to make themselves subject to the same rules as everyone else (The STOCK act), and then when nobody was looking, they rolled it back and gave themselves their exemption back.. And yeah, Obama signed it..

      It was fucking sneaky.. They didn't debate the bill.. The announcement was one sentence long (literally), and they didn't even fucking vote on it. They used "unanimous consent".

      STOCK = Stop Trading on Congressional Knowledge

      Yep.. This is the government we have.. The rules don't apply to them.. Just to you fucking peons.

    6. Re: 'Privacy is Not Absolute' by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      > Pass an amendment requiring full open financial information on all elected officials and their family members, spouse & children

      That's what Navalny was trying to do in Russia.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    7. Re: 'Privacy is Not Absolute' by baerd · · Score: 1

      The STOCK act was not repealed, it might have been gutted but it is still in affect and insider trading even for members of congress is still illegal.

      --
      I wish I had a lawn.
  4. Thank Snowden by SlayerOfKings · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A big part of why end to end encryption is becoming more popular and desired by the public is because people everywhere were horrified to find out how big a dragnet the 5 eyes nations were using, and they'd probably never have found out if it wasn't for Edward Snowden.

    1. Re:Thank Snowden by snapsnap · · Score: 4, Informative

      This was happening long before Snowden. Remember the objections to Clinton's Clipper chip?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip

      Clinton proposed it in 1993, but by 1996 it was already dead. Even then the Internet reacted quickly to oppose this.

    2. Re:Thank Snowden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It tells me you are intentionally lying, and you know better.

      He did not "defect to Russia". The USA revoked his travel visa when he was IN Russia on his way somewhere else, and he was unable to proceed further. He doesn't want to be Russia, but almost anywhere else he goes, the US will grab him under the theory that it should punish the messenger.

    3. Re:Thank Snowden by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      I guarantee that the FSB does nothing, unless they know they're hurting a Westerner somewhere. You don't appreciate the pure evil of the KGB mindset.

    4. Re:Thank Snowden by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      And yet you felt the need to reply.

    5. Re:Thank Snowden by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This was happening long before Snowden.

      Sure, but back then authoritarians tried to dismiss the objectors as paranoid. They can't do that anymore.

    6. Re:Thank Snowden by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      How cute. ""Boy"" This vatnik yellow barbarian learned a new insult. Yawn.

    7. Re: Thank Snowden by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Informative

      Do you have _any_ reason to think that Mr. Snowden's behavior was _anything_ other than an honest man trying to report criminal behavior by his employers? He reported it internally, he tried to escalate it through his own NSA superiors, and he was ignored repeatedly. Mr. Putin is a former KGB head, of course he's taking advantage of it. But Mr. Snowden has behaved cautiously, and as ethically as possible, at every stage.

    8. Re:Thank Snowden by AJWM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yep, they lost the Clipper chip battle.

      It's now a generation later, of course they're trying again. If they lose this one, they'll probably try again in another twenty five years, if not sooner.

      The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and all that. I just wish there were some way to get rid of the fuckwits who keep pushing this crap.

      --
      -- Alastair
    9. Re:Thank Snowden by mikael · · Score: 2

      That was rather abstract evidence, and if they kept that knowledge to themselves it didn't have any obvious impact on anyone's daily life.

      It's when recruitment agencies start getting my mail feeds that it became directly obvious to me. Every time I sent off a private Email on my desktop PC as an application to a company or just an update to my parents, that within the space of a few days, I'd start having all sorts of recruitment agents who I had never contacted try to connect to me via social media or they would claim that they found my CV on a website. Some even called me up on a private line number. Each and every time I sent out an email. It was like trying to drive down to the shopping mall only to have beggars shove their head through the open window of my car when I try and pay for a parking space.

      In the end I have given up using Email and go back to using land lines, "block" and "ghost" them in order to get some peace. Encrypted Email, VPN's, instant messaging and alternate UNICODE character sets now seem the only option I can talk to friends and family without the recruitment snoops getting in my face and daily business.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    10. Re:Thank Snowden by anon-desu · · Score: 1

      They still can, and do.

    11. Re: Thank Snowden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Did they really lose the clipper chip? What is the Intel Management Engine then?

    12. Re:Thank Snowden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Snowden provided proof, specifics, documents, details. Your previous stories gossip and theories were fine, but Snowden did a big solid to the world awareness of what actually IS taking place.

    13. Re: Thank Snowden by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      The road to hell is paved with good intentions. He may not have started out as a puppet, but that's what he became, and worst of all for him, like Assange, sooner or later his protectors will tire of him, or decide he's a useful bargaining chip, and happily hand him over.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    14. Re: Thank Snowden by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The "road to hell" you describe is paved with the footsteps of the NSA personnel who were committing criminal acts against USA citizens and violating international treaties. Mr. Snowden reported _criminal activity_ by the NSA, activity which threatened the rights and liberties of millions of Americans. As best we can tell, Mr. Snowden did his best to _stop_ the criminal activity, and only escalated when the activity continued and he was blatantly ignored. It seemed clear that no court would be allowed to hear the evidence: what act, other than whistleblowing, would be moral at that point?

      Mr. Assange is a different situation. the charges for which his extradition is being sought are for actions that do not involve his whistleblowing.

    15. Re:Thank Snowden by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      A hero who will sell out to anyone, like Kim Dotcom.

    16. Re:Thank Snowden by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      It tells me you are a cunt. That man gave us PROOF that our own government shits all over our rights and wipes its ass with the Constitution. But you don't like that.. You don't like that he provided proof that you are a blind lemming.

      He risked everything to get us this information and you hate him for it.

      FUCK YOU

    17. Re:Thank Snowden by gtall · · Score: 1

      Hmmm...I guess we are to give you high marks for your rhetorical style. I'm sure you convinced others of your righteous indignation for your use of the internationally recognized phrase (e.g., F U) indicating seriousness.

    18. Re:Thank Snowden by chthon · · Score: 1

      Sometimes the only thing left is to give a well-deserved FU and a clobber around the ears.

    19. Re: Thank Snowden by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think Snowden was groomed. KGB case officers are trained to groom people and lie effortlessly. Assange and Greenwald were brought in by the instigators.

      Snowden will die cold and drunk in a piss-stained cardboard box.

      But he put himself there, not because he explicitly set out to stab the free world in the back, but because the Russians whispered anti-Western poison in his ear, and conned him into believing that Russian was a bastion of freedom, rule-of-law and transparency.

      A bit like the hordes of naive techno-libertarian sheep here, voting down the painful truth. Just like working-class Trumpers, you'll never admit to yourself that you've been brainwashed by Russian propaganda into believing that the West is evil.

      Worse ... you all think you're too clever to get conned, and the Russians know you are the easiest marks of all.

    20. Re: Thank Snowden by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      Foolish man. He made himself a traitor because he drank deeply from the same poisonous Russian Kool-aid as the rest of the technolibertarian extremist idiots on here.

    21. Re:Thank Snowden by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      He defected.

      Furthermore, the Russians colluded with Julian Assange and Glenn Greenwald to get him there. The Snowden operation was a carefully-planned premedidated attack by the Russians on Western intelligence, in preparation for the 2016 act of war that elevated Trump to power.

      And you know this how?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    22. Re: Thank Snowden by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      First, Snowden contacted the media BEFORE he actually started working as a Help Desk guy at the NSA.

      Then, he was never authorized to view the stuff he leaked. That's because he was an IT help desk worker, not a developer or analyst. He did not have the need-to-know to access that stuff. That's why he had to use his help desk position to trick people into giving him their passwords.

      Next, Snowden never contacted his supervisors, the NSA IG, the IC IG, the Federal IG's office, and of the Congressional Oversight committee members in either house. If he'd been concerned about any programs, those were the people to contact - and like eery other NSA contractor, he took training that explicitly stated how to contact the IG anonymously.

      Finally, when Snowden left, he took *everything* he could download; millions of pages of stuff. There is no way in hell he had any idea what he was actually taking. Like Manning, Snowden was out to leak.

      Citations?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  5. need to tell them to fuck off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We need more encryption not less.
    I'd rather every single criminal go free than have the government able to snoop on innocent people.

    1. Re:need to tell them to fuck off by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming this is more about backdoors in to hardware and online platforms. Even if you have end to end encryption, if they can sniff your data from your phone, then the fact that is encrypted over the wire doesn't mean very much.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:need to tell them to fuck off by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Even if the government could prove (to a standard that would hold up in court) that backdoors in widely available software would save the lives of innocent people, I wouldn't support such backdoors.

      If anyone out there is talking to politicians and trying to convince them why all this stuff is a bad idea, point them at the excellent Bruce Schneier book Data and Goliath. It spells out in language that even a politician could probably understand exactly why all this crap is bad (IIRC there are even arguments that this stuff makes the world LESS safe)

  6. Government is not Absolute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is not some sort of challenge to government. It's a fact of the universe. All the efforts by each government to outwit the other by creating "unbreakable encryption" has resulted in it getting into the hands of the civilians. No amount of government restricts will undo the laws of mathematics they so carefully tried to exploit to ensure the security of their own messages. Now it can be used by anyone and no amount of collusion by technological companies, legislation, or other measures will adequately provide the backdoors they so desperately desire.

    The cat is out of the bag. Instead of embracing this fact and working around the limitations this means, like finding loose links or offering immunity to some for access when it comes to criminal organizations/groups or simply other detective/intelligence work in a world that will never return all the answers, this parade of begging and threats only lures in a few useful idiots who tend to not be useful enough.

    Either that or it's all a charade and the encryption has already been broken. But given their behavior, I tend to doubt it. That, by far, is actually the most crippling thing: admitting how powerless they are when encryption is used correctly. It's little wonder "Five Eyes" acts such like a petulant child. It's also incredibly pathetic.

    1. Re:Government is not Absolute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No amount of government restricts will undo the laws of mathematics they so carefully tried to exploit to ensure the security of their own messages.

      No, this is dangerous hubris. I want to believe that too - so very badly - but it's a dangerous argument.

      Sure they can't beat the "laws of mathematics", but they don't have to! They merely have to legally mandate back doors in devices before your laws of mathematics get hold of the data. Hell, even just doing that for the top 5 devices and chat apps will effectively backdoor the vast majority of the population.

      They don't care if a few ubergeeks figure out ways around. There aren't enough people like that to matter in the big picture. The point is about mass surveillance, and getting 99% is good enough... but it's still a disaster for a free society.

      Don't get too caught up in technical hubris. This is a dangerous game, and the people playing the other side of it play dirty. They have the power to penalize companies, block them from markers, and generally coerce lots of very smart engineers at said companies into giving them access to people's data by hook or by crook. They don't care about the lone guy on BSD running gnupg from the command line. They care about the teeming masses on phones and Windows PCs using $CHATAPPOFTHEWEEK.

    2. Re:Government is not Absolute by mark-t · · Score: 1

      They don't care if a few ubergeeks figure out ways around. There aren't enough people like that to matter in the big picture.

      Thanks to the distibutive capabilities of the internet, there are.... specifically, if only a couple of experts figure out ways around and happen to publish, then everybody has access to that method...

      So they can go right on ahead and arrest people who came up with what amounts to a math proof.

    3. Re:Government is not Absolute by mark-t · · Score: 1

      My point is that people with a technical background often have the ability to make something accessible to people who lack that background.

    4. Re:Government is not Absolute by mark-t · · Score: 1

      ... and mine is that this doesn't matter, because the barrier is too high for those non-technical-background people to get over

      It is that very barrier that I am saying that people with the right skills and expertise have a way of lowering.... for everybody. Historically, this has always been the case in computing. Experts figure out how to do something they find useful.... they make it easier and easier to do and eventually the threshold of difficulty is low enough that practically anyone can do it.

    5. Re:Government is not Absolute by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it has evaded your notice that is entirely possible to distribute apps without using those app stores... and while it's true that this would exclude a majority of people, as more and more less technically inclined people find out about a useful application's existence, its popularity will rise even without an official distribution channel. Maybe it won't reach ever a majority, but it sure as heck could be a statistically significant percentage of the population.

      Systemically, there's absolutely no way that they can block this. The only hurdle for the technical person is to lower the technical threshold requirements to the point that anyone can do it, or at least anyone with access to the right kind of computer.

    6. Re:Government is not Absolute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, this is dangerous hubris. I want to believe that too - so very badly - but it's a dangerous argument.

      Sure they can't beat the "laws of mathematics", but they don't have to! They merely have to legally mandate back doors in devices before your laws of mathematics get hold of the data. Hell, even just doing that for the top 5 devices and chat apps will effectively backdoor the vast majority of the population.

      China may be able to force back doors on devices, but Five Eyes has demonstrated sever incompetence with mass back dooring devices. Mostly, their greatest strength has been finding and exploiting weaknesses in protocols.

      They don't care if a few ubergeeks figure out ways around. There aren't enough people like that to matter in the big picture. The point is about mass surveillance, and getting 99% is good enough... but it's still a disaster for a free society.

      Then too late, mass surveillance in that sense has been around since at least the 90s. Meaningfully using the information though has proved mostly impossible. The simple fact is more that Five Eyes wants the ability to look at all data to "feel safe", which means mass surveillance. Yet in truth the risk to them isn't from the masses but targeted groups who don't care about falling laws and is able to hire ubergeeks to undermine them.

      Don't get too caught up in technical hubris. This is a dangerous game, and the people playing the other side of it play dirty. They have the power to penalize companies, block them from markers, and generally coerce lots of very smart engineers at said companies into giving them access to people's data by hook or by crook. They don't care about the lone guy on BSD running gnupg from the command line. They care about the teeming masses on phones and Windows PCs using $CHATAPPOFTHEWEEK.

      I think, honestly, the hubris is on the other foot. The idea is that if only there were a technological solution, Five Eyes could make themselves safe. Yet those with an agenda who so desire to do harm to them will play dirtier and can speak in plain sight. The most damaging ability of any group is to penetrate so deeply and do so much damage that an organization is fundamentally crippled. You don't do that by having obvious encryption or standing out by using $OBSOLETECHATAPP. You do it by blending in. It's why Snowden did so much damage to them. It's why Chinese Espionage has been so successful.

      I don't want to discredit the harm of mass surveillance on the population, but we've been living in that world for a long time. The real horror, I think, will come when an organization like the mob decides to remove the panopticon over their shoulder when they feel it getting too closer, possibly if the government does start pushing these back doors into law. Perhaps then we'll see just what Five Eyes will do, but even more they may see what the mass population will do.

    7. Re:Government is not Absolute by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that Apple doesn't already prevent installation of applications on an iPhone unless they're from the store

      There are ways around that is what I'm saying... at least two that come to mind, and for at least one of them, short of not allowing independent developers to write apps for the iPhone at all, there is nothing that Apple can do to stop it.

    8. Re:Government is not Absolute by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      All the efforts by each government to outwit the other by creating "unbreakable encryption" has resulted in it getting into the hands of the civilians.

      Actually most of it was developed by civilians and then adopted by the government. It was out there already, and nothing will stop its further development.

      The NSA and GCHQ like you to think that they have the greatest cryptographers in the world with their super-secret technology that is decades beyond what we can get, but in reality their only real advantage is the budget to pay some good people to work on these problems full time.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    9. Re:Government is not Absolute by ras · · Score: 1

      They merely have to legally mandate back doors in devices before your laws of mathematics get hold of the data.

      The federal government in Australia (I'm Australian) has a bill on the table ready to be passed by parliament. And yes, you have pretty much nailed it - they want legally mandated back doors. They make a token effort to hide by wrapping it in in thousands of words and using includes :

      This includes accessing communications at points where it is not encrypted.

      They know to get at the data they will need to download bugs (as in listening devices - but if they weren't from the government they would be called malware or viruses) to the phone or whatever. They also know those bugs will be detected pretty quickly by Apple, Google and friends, so to work around that the bill includes a provision to legally force them to provide Technical Assistance. The definition Technical Assistance it left conveniently open end, so it includes everything up to and including writing the bug for them.

      But writing the bug is not scary bit. The bill includes specifically says technical assistances includes:

      installing, maintaining, testing or using software or equipment as an act or thing that may be specified in a technical assistance request .... The Bill will allow law enforcement agencies to collect evidence from electronic devices under an overt warrant remotely.

      So they explicitly saying they can demand the manufacturer install their bug remotely. In case it isn't obvious: what they are planning is to hijack the auto install / upgrade feature of phones, TV's, routers, WiFi camera, robot vacuum's and so on so they can press a button and a bug will be downloaded to all of them. The bug will be undetectable because the manufacturer will be forced to collude with them to hide it. All data will be available on the device because it is unlocked: and yes that includes stuff stored in Apples secure enclave because you can replace it's firmware too. The bug could also do active snooping, like switching on the GPS, microphone and cameras.

      This is going to make the sort of world portrayed by tv shows like Person of Interest a reality. They must almost be wetting themselves with excitement over how wonderful it will all be. The lives of all citizens will be an open books to their governments - all they have to do is push a hidden button in a dark room somewhere, and data will start flowing from anywhere.

      They don't have a clue about the monster they are creating. I'm sure they will tell us that central button will be most of the most heavily guarded things on the planet. But in that button they have created the one key to rule us all: banking passwords, stock holdings, emails discussing billion dollar takeovers all become amenable to creating silent copies. Corrupt just a few people, and the $100M Russian banking heists will look like peanuts. That key will unlock the wallets of entire nations.

  7. Internet is so secure now by ZenMatrix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With multiple systems being breached every month, lets create backdoors to make this happen. Anyone suggesting this has no idea how tech works.

    1. Re:Internet is so secure now by Master+Moose · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sounds about right for most government departments

      --
      . . .gone when the morning comes
  8. How shocking is it... by anegg · · Score: 2

    that an alliance of intelligence agencies that uses snooping through private material to gather intelligence attempts to set forth the narrative that "privacy is not an absolute"? Not very shocking at all...

    I hope that the rule of law and the legislative bodies elected by representatives of the people weigh in on this rather one-sided pronouncement.

  9. No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Look, I get it: when you're trying to stop the worst criminals in the world it seems stupid to let trivial stuff like privacy of people you don't care about get in the way. Because if you don't, people will die.

    But there are three problems: (1) you haven't earned the public trust. Episode after episode (lying to congress, for-profit prisons, coercion of innocent people to plead guilty through a bad plea bargain system, backdoor unconstitutional evidence, even standard interrogation techniques) show that despite lots of good people in law enforcement, law enforcement as a whole should not be trusted. If you want the public trust, you need to put MUCH better systems in place to ensure accountability and transparency. The end result will be *worse* for the bad guys, *better* for law enforcement, and would *enable* the kind of trust-ful environment you want to go after terrorists. (2) it weakens security generally, for technical reasons, and that's not to be glossed over. (3) It's not just about how it gets in the way of you going after the asshole who's trying to plan the next 9/11. It's also about what's the worst thing a person in government abusing their power would do with the information you're collecting. It's not about you; it's about the guy who stores information on the entire population and uses it for political purposes later when those people become Presidents, Senators, and CEOs.

    It's about J. Edgar Hoover and Senator McCarthy. It's about people making lists of undesireables from information about religion or belief or google search or sexual mores. It's about control by the most evil of people using all the power of your office and the offices around you--the people who, even if you have a good culture today, could be in those offices with surprising speed.

    Defense of Democracy is not just about Defense from foreign threats. It's about defense from domestic ones. It's about threats from enemies within our own power structure, and more than anything about preventing the corruption of power.

    1. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Look, I get it: when you're trying to stop the worst criminals in the world it seems stupid to let trivial stuff like privacy of people you don't care about get in the way. Because if you don't, people will die.

      Let's just take it to the end-game.

      It isn't privacy getting in their way to stop "criminals", it is the law that is getting in the way.

      The final step is to abolish all rule of law, so that there is absolutely nothing preventing the government from judging guilty and executing anyone they please.

      That's where the government is heading and where they want to be. Let's stop pretending and beating around the bush.

      In the US, what gives the government the right to enforce their laws and the constitution? Ultimately?
      It's having the ability to exert force over everyone else to do so, both from sheer numbers as well as deadly force.

      Not coincidentally it is the exact same thing required to enforce literally anything.
      So do away with the constitution, the rules, and all current written law.
      Start from scratch, just the simple statement "do as we say or die" and then use the same methods to enforce that as is used currently.

      It really is that simple, and nothing short of that will result in the full draconian control and power those in the government want.

      We already have a name for it, it's called overthrowing a government by force. In this case it is the government consisting of individuals that desire to overthrow the government consisting of policies, laws, and rules.

      Now that we've firmly and undeniably shown what these actions are, breaking their own rules because insert-reason-here, I hope we the people recognize these individuals actions and behaviors for what they really are at their core.

      Right now is the time our current policies still have a small number of individuals in power who believe in them and wish them to remain.
      The forces trying to overthrow those policies by demanding they be exempt need to be labeled as what they are, and the response and punishments laid out in those policies enforced against them, if we want any hope of stopping them.

      Every individual having anything to do with the 5 eyes in any country are traitors as defined in our current law for treason, trying to overthrow our government and very way of life using deadly force.
      If we can't convince those in power who still wish our way of life to remain in existence and our current government to remain in existence, we must convince them to respond now exactly as our policies dictate.

      Minimum punishments are life in prison with no chance of release, parole, or expectation of rehabilitation.
      Treason and murder are the only two laws we have in existence that warrant at worse the death penalty, and for a very good reason.

      These treasonous over throwers of government need to be put in front of a court of law, with all of these very publications as the irrefutable evidence of their crimes and intent, and be stopped.

      Anything less in response is simply letting them win, after which we will have no judges or law to justification to do anything about it.

  10. Abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem of lawless law enforcers is it leads durectly to abuse abd exploitation, embezzlement and theft.
    Corportation and private citizens need heavier and harder encyption to protect their individual interests from public theft or politically motivated exploitation.
    US local states and towns governments are well known for their unconstitutional racist bigoted rulings demying political minority groups even basic civil rights, basic feedom of speech and self expression, religious freedom, private property 4th amendment no tresspassing warrantless searches, sometimes resulting in injury or death of tax paying home owners, and rampent 14th amendment violations of different races or religious groups.
    Just because someone gets a job in government doesn't make them one of the 'good guys'.

    1. Re: Abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cried wolf? Everything he said he true. Just because you CHOOSE to not believe it, that's on you. Not him.

    2. Re: Abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They're not dog whistle words, they have relatively clear meaning, the fact that a lot of people like to pretend like being opposed to same-sex rights and the like is based on religion doesn't make it any less bigoted.

      Similarly, the focus on Islam has little basis in reality, "Christians" kill more in the US in a typical year than Muslims do, and yet, who gets all the monitoring?

    3. Re: Abuse by MightyMartian · · Score: 1, Troll

      The only difference between a white nationalist and a white supremacist is that the latter is at least openly honest about his racism. Racism is a real thing, whether it makes you feel bad or not.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re: Abuse by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      ...the fact that a lot of people like to pretend like being opposed to religious freedom, freedom of speech, and freedom of association and the like is based on a skewed understanding of equality and the 1st Amendment doesn't make it any less bigoted.

      FTFY

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    5. Re: Abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Say that wearing your white hood.

    6. Re: Abuse by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Yawn. Keep screeching about the racists under the bed, maybe somebody will care, someday. Until then, you've blown your wad and nobody will believe you when you knee-jerkedly accuse someone, whose only crime was to disagree with you, of being a racist.

      If you don't like being called a racist, maybe don't be so racist. Can you cite an example of someone being accused of racism, when they were not in fact being racist?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  11. Exactly why you shouldn't trust locked firmware. by WorBlux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If your phone/computer OEM can force you to use only specified firmware, the spooks can force them to modify the firmware in ways that betray the user.

  12. This is why control over HW is _critical_ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People always say "encryption can't be broken" but that is missing the point. They can mandate a pre-encryption backdoor in phones and tablets, and because those are relatively locked down platforms, it'll do the trick, forking over your data before it is encrypted, or on the other end, after it is decrypted for you to view it. Sure some people will find ways around, but the point is that 99.9% of the population never will even try, they won't even be aware it's a thing.

    This is why it is so critical to keep control over hardware. The more we buy locked down hardware, the more control slips from our fingers. Even now PC hardware is edging that way, with all the hardware level DRM and "ring -1" features anymore.

    Make no mistake: there is a war going on over who gets to control the mechanisms of the digital world. It's a long, slow loss, but the trend is clear. We're not winning this. Personal computers were much more under your control 30 years ago than today.

  13. Lawfull access is simple. by WorBlux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the target is using end to end ecryption, get a F'ing warrant and hack the endpoint(s), assign tail teams... Mass surveillance does not protect the "citizens", and enables a government of the state, by the state, for the state, doing material harm to everyone on the planet.

    1. Re:Lawfull access is simple. by PPH · · Score: 1

      Well, there goes the fishing expedition.

      If they have me in custody and reasonable cause, then a warrant shouldn't be a problem. But that spoils their ability to go sniffing around undetected.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Lawfull access is simple. by vlad30 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately for law enforcement it is often too late as many of the conversations have already happened As in the case of the apple phone what they ere looking for is the conspirators if there were any. Which is why Australian telco's and ISP are required to keep the metadata i.e. Time date length of call with the parties involved but not the content. so when a bad guy is identified we can go back and look at everyone they communicated with for the last 2 years and narrow the list of suspects to actually get a warrant for surveillance. Notice no need to decrypt or even know the content of communication.

      --
      Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
  14. The IRA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Without the internet, without computer based encryption the IRA was able to coordinate terrorist activities for decades.

    There are still "Numbers stations" which publicly just broadcast a series of numbers

    There are thousands of ways to transmit information, all undetectable.

    For example if a child wears a red t-shirt it could mean the house is under surveillance, the child knows nothing, its just what he was given to wear that day.

    A loaf of bead gets bought before mid day, or after , there is a different meaning

    If someone posts on a message board saying their cat has run away, it could have another meaning to others

    Those that want to hide in plain sight and transmit encrypted information will still be able to do so with impunity, this just puts honest people at risk.

    As for the "nothing to hide" argument , of course people have something to hide.
    A GP who likes to dress as a baby in nappies, a male lawyer who likes to dress as cinderella, a wife who is having an affair with the gardener, a Jew who likes bacon, someone being an atheist , being gay, ex member of a hate group, illegitimate child, paying off a porn star and playboy model. There are millions of things we keep to ourselves and the government wants to be trusted with that information.... "I don't think so Tim".

    1. Re:The IRA by mark-t · · Score: 2

      As for the "nothing to hide" argument , of course people have something to hide.

      True... in fact, if I ever met somebody who tried to present this rationale, I would ask why they are wearing clothes right now.

      Everybody has things to hide.... not because they have necessarily done anything wrong, but because some things are simply private.

      And that's not even considering the inescapable fact that even *IF* you give the government the benefit of the doubt that they have only the purest and most noble intentions for accessing your private data, if they can access it, then so can the bad guys.... you know, the people that law enforcement is supposed to protect you from?

      This makes law enforcement's job *harder*, not easier... since they would now they need to do that much more policing to protect absolutely everybody from people that might to misappropriate your data just because the government has access to it.

  15. What's good for the goose.... by Dutchmaan · · Score: 2

    How about the government can have as much privacy as it's citizens. National security is nothing more than a euphemism for "we want to hold onto power"... It's high time our government started acting responsibly and the only way to do that is a grass roots efforts.

    1. Re:What's good for the goose.... by rajkiran_g · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about the government can have as much privacy as it's citizens.

      I think a government should have far _less_ privacy than it's citizens.

    2. Re:What's good for the goose.... by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Governments should have ZERO privacy and everything they do should be public.

      But then of course there's the security branches of the governments that would be exempt from this requirement and everything just gets moved to the security branches and you solved absolutely nothing.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
  16. Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS available by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Pass an amendment requiring full open financial information on all elected officials and their family members, spouse & children."

    Mod parent up! We live in societies that lack a depth of understanding. We are forced to vote for people we don't really know. Most people are ignorant about much of what happens around them that affects their lives.

    Many people in government and in management of private companies have NO knowledge of technical issues. That doesn't prevent them from having what they consider to be a strong and sensible opinion. They don't recognize they are wildly ignorant.

    De-encryption back doors are not an answer. They will ALWAYS eventually be compromised.

    Encryption is ALWAYS available. Forcing back doors will merely hasten the development of additional encryption methods.

  17. They can go sod off by rumpledoll · · Score: 2

    eom

  18. They would say that wouldn't they. by xQx · · Score: 3, Funny

    Headline: Agency who's job it is to spy on citizens thinks citizens shouldn't have technology which makes it difficult for them to be spied on.

  19. It's sure gonna suck... by Patent+Lover · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...when Wikileaks, Anonymous, the Russians, etc. find the backdoor.

    1. Re: It's sure gonna suck... by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Just some Trumptard getting triggered—or some troll pretending to be.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  20. Cardinal Richelieu by DCFusor · · Score: 1, Troll

    "Give me 6 lines written by the purest of men, and I'll find wherewithal to hang him in them".
    The breakthough is not needing those 6 lines at all.
    If they get the law they think they can get (by blackmailing the politicians? Dragnet had to include them, probably them first) - they can then demand you decrypt random bits - and bust you if you can't - or they can - make /dev/random say what they want to believe.
    It won't matter if you use effectively unbreakable crypto - the laws of math and all that. It'll only make it worse.

    --
    Why guess when you can know? Measure!
  21. Is that legal? by manu0601 · · Score: 2

    companies must give law enforcement access to encrypted data or face "technological, enforcement, legislative or other measures to achieve lawful access solutions

    They ask for legal access, and should they be denied, they will change to law to make it legal?

  22. Um.....NO by Ferretman · · Score: 1

    How does "no" sound? Does "no" work for you?

    NO.

    Ferret

    --
    Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
  23. This is why..... by DewDude · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is why government is a damn joke and the people need to take the power back from the fucking morons they gave it to in the first place.

    If we can't have gun control becuase "the constitution says the right to own guns (arms technically) shall not be infringed"...then law enforcement should have to actually do a little work and deal with encryption since the constitution doesn't make exceptions for our right to privacy.

    Otherwise your government is just a bunch of oppressive asshates; illegtimate; and need to be overthrown.

  24. So... by DivineKnight · · Score: 1

    There really is no difference between the good guys and the bad guys, is there?

    1. Re:So... by DCFusor · · Score: 2

      There is, it's just that those who call themselves the good guys aren't any longer. They're the problem. They even fear logic and downvote things like I posted above about where this leads. It's a stupid last gasp - censorship only keeps the real fools from being shown as what they are...but agency employees trying to keep that pay coming aren't that smart - or are depending on you being dumb.
      I'll just leave this here. Note the date: https://phys.org/news/2011-10-...
      I think you can work out the implications on your own.

      --
      Why guess when you can know? Measure!
  25. Re:Exactly why you shouldn't trust locked firmware by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If your phone/computer OEM can force you to use only specified firmware, the spooks can force them to modify the firmware in ways that betray the user.

    Except that the spooks have no legal authority to compel the tech firms to do that, and the tech firms have a huge incentive to refuse to cooperate and to publicly fight back.

    The people will win on this because the corporations are on our side.

  26. Note to the governments by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 1

    Try not to annoy or threaten the very folks you're relying upon for a solution.

    Just like pissing off the wait staff before your food arrives, nothing good can come of it.

    Though government officials aren't typically known for their amazing insight :|

  27. Bottom line by jd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If there's a backdoor, there's no encryption.

    Given we don't see politicians publishing their bank account details and credit card numbers, we can assume politicians really don't understand the consequences of their proposals.

    Ignorance is a really bad place to be making decisions from.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  28. I guess when they outlaw encryption by bobstreo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    only outlaws will have encryption.

    I thought there were some constitutional protections in the US to prevent this type of thing from happening, but I guess not.

    Most of the terrorist activities I've seen reported were using unencrypted communications.

    Social media sites provide a treasure trove of suspects with simple searches. I mean really, just start with all the twitter/youtube/facebook rants and work your way down from that.

    But I guess that's too hard for the 5 eyes.

    1. Re:I guess when they outlaw encryption by markdavis · · Score: 2

      >"I thought there were some constitutional protections in the US to prevent this type of thing from happening, but I guess not."

      Not directly, but indirectly, yes:

      "Congress shall make no law [...]abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press"

      "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated"

      "No person shall [...] be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;"

      "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

  29. Cryptography survival pack torrent? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

    Anyone know of anything like this?

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:Cryptography survival pack torrent? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      A Linux install disc will have many cryptography binaries, but I'm thinking more along the lines of source code and documentation.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  30. Re:And they're right by benjfowler · · Score: 1

    "cyka blyat!!"

  31. Thank Booz Allen & the Feds more than Snowden by DanDD · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I blame Booz Allen and the NSA more than Snowden. Even if Snowden hadn't leaked, the slipshod way everyone was dealing with classified information would have eventually led to some form of disclosure.

    Spycraft is a highly specialized and weird world, and the tradecraft and secrets involved should not be available to those without a need to know. The NSA should have compartmentalized and encrypted their own secrets much better. All Snowden should have seen, as an IT worker and poorly-vetted young contractor, were streams of random characters sitting in inboxes and file systems. He could still mount filesystems and keep data flowing through networks without being able to read or understand the data.

    If the NSA isn't employing quantum computing both for encryption and decryption by now, then every US citizen should be prepared to have foreign terms forced upon them in some arena. That's a polite way of saying we'll get our asses kicked. I sincerely hope that the ad nauseam calls for back doors is just a smoke screen or false flag maneuver.

    Now, this is probably going to be highly unpopular here, but here's my take on privacy: If the feds are able to crack my private encrypted messages, the all the more power to them. If they use my private information in dealing with hostile foreign actors, I got no complaint. However, if they use this information - directly - to persecute me for any activity, illegal or not, then that's crossing a red line. If instead they tip the FBI who are able to obtain warrants, and then they bust me, then that's fair. if, on the other hand, I use encryption techniques that they cannot reasonably crack, then they can park a van across the street from my house and peer at me through the windows. Or just knock on the door and offer to clean my carpets for free.

    But trying to tell a US citizen within the borders of the United States that they cannot communicate and encrypt using any method available to them - i.e. math and creative problem solving - is crossing the red line of tyranny.

    Shpx lbh, lbh ynml pbpx fhpxref. Dhvg ovgpuvat gung lbhe wbo vf uneq naq chfu gur obhaqnevrf bs grpuabybtl gb trg lbhe fuvg qbar. Sbe rknzcyr, frr gur uvfgbel bs gur Ravtzn pbqr naq gur ahpyrne obzo.

    --
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H. G. Wells
  32. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by postbigbang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Encryption will be broken, but each time this gets close to happening, new and more interesting and novel encryption methods are published.

    We did not grant rights to these elected governments to have ultimate surveillance powers over us, citizens.

    Those that read this: vote. Query your candidates for their position on privacy and surveillance. Ask them outright, and feel free to distribute the answers to these questions. Then vote. Get those who can't easily vote to the polls. Make your positions known.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  33. I swear to fuck. They're morons. by Chas · · Score: 2

    ANY BACK DOORS YOU PUT INTO ENCRYPTION WILL BE USED BY EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE GOVERNMENT!
    Moreover, any back doors you put into encryption will be ABUSED by everyone...INCLUDING the Government.

    So. In response.

    No. Eat a dick.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  34. Those with no technical exper. know "Decryption"? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    Maybe I should have said decryption.

    There was a reason I said de-encryption. I am hoping a Slashdot reader sends a link to my comment to someone with no technical knowledge, but who has power over governmental issues. I was thinking maybe that person wouldn't know the meaning of decryption.

    Also, Slashdot comments represent me at my worst, in some ways. Often I spend time writing a Slashdot comment when I am very busy doing other things.

  35. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by Snotnose · · Score: 1

    This is a great idea. The problem with it is the honest folks will look at the requirements and think "aww hell no", while those who are less than honest will be looking for loopholes and places to hide their income stream.

    IMHO, I suspect this is half our problem with our "elected officials". The other half is, no matter how honest you are the system forces you to be corrupt. Where corrupt is defined by anything you or I would call corrupt, but congress sees as business as usual. See also congresscritters required to spend x hours per week at a call center drumming up money.

    Then you have the absolute idiots like Duncan Hunter, who one day throws his wife under the bus, and the next day says "keep my wife out of it".

  36. They believe privacy is not absolute. by Chas · · Score: 1

    And I believe that stupid intelligence apparat need to be executed in the most inhumane and humiliating manner possible. ON LIVE TV!

    Isn't it nice to have beliefs?

    Also, beliefs are what you have when you lack any real evidence (in short, you're making shit up).

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  37. Re:Exactly why you shouldn't trust locked firmware by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Informative

    > Except that the spooks have no legal authority to compel the tech firms to do that,

    They can, and have, in the past. Remember when SSL keys were limited to 80-bits for export use? Remember when they've insisted that Cisco include backdoor keys in their hardware? Remember the design of the Clipper Chip, which was only discarded when it was found that people could generate their own private keys that passed the checks for the "Law Enforcement Agency Field" checks?

  38. Re:Exactly why you shouldn't trust locked firmware by AJWM · · Score: 2

    I wouldn't say the corporations are on our side. They're on their own side.

    But to the extent they'll start losing sales as people realize those small but expensive boxes they sell are little more than 1984's "televisors" made portable (great, Big Brother is not just watching and listening, he's in your pocket), it is in their self-interest to resist this.

    However, with enough pressure, they'll knuckle under. Look at Google's principled stand on censored search-engines in China (*cough*), for example.

    --
    -- Alastair
  39. Re:Thank Booz Allen & the Feds more than Snowd by mikael · · Score: 1

    One of the documents that was leaked or referenced was the system used to crack encryption (WindsorGreen/WindsorBlue).

    https://theintercept.com/2017/...

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  40. Goodfellas by Bodhammer · · Score: 1

    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have."


    Henry Hill: [narrating] Now the guy's got Paulie as a partner. Any problems, he goes to Paulie. Trouble with the bill? He can go to Paulie. Trouble with the cops, deliveries, Tommy, he can call Paulie. But now the guy's gotta come up with Paulie's money every week, no matter what. Business bad? Fuck you, pay me. Oh, you had a fire? Fuck you, pay me. Place got hit by lightning, huh? Fuck you, pay me.

    --
    "I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
  41. Sure thing! by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

    I say just give them ALL the "encrypted data" they ask for. Let them figure out how to actually decrypt it.

    IRL, any laws passed to enforce this will have the following effects: 1. APT will just make their own "clean" variations of various encryption protocols, and these will forever be beyond the grasp of Five Eyes. 2. Someone will find the "master keys", and the REAL fun will begin as all compromised protocols will be "open season", and the entire system will be compromised 3. The Five Eyes will develop their own, non-compromised protocols for military communications; but will be unable to allow all the various contractors access so this too will be vulnerable.

  42. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    Encryption need not necessarily be broken. One-time pads, for example, remain crypotgraphically robust, even with quantum computing applied to them.

  43. Re:I'm beginning to think by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    Trump is not a particularly visionary leader or anything. Bit of a buffoon really. The all-important thing is that he's not part of the aristocracy...

    He's sure got you fooled, doesn't he.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  44. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by postbigbang · · Score: 1

    It's about power and control. Government likes it. Police like it. Intimidation in the name of public safety is a time-honored madness.

    That politicians exempt themselves from most things is to be expected. You'll know corruption has ended and snowballs will make it through hell when they stop being privileged. We're animals, and being alpha is part of your legacy and mine.... and some of use exercise that tendency more than others.

    Handing over your keys is a big problem for most people. Others will trustingly (or in deep fear) relinquish them. Or if you're Google, you'll sell them to the highest bidder.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  45. The NSA failed to keep their data secret by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

    If the NSA, one of the worlds largest and most sophisticated intelligence organizations failed to keep some extremely sensitive and classified information secret, how can any other organization be trusted. I'm afraid that we *CAN* fault the entire program for a single slip up. if government agencies have backdoors to data, then those backdoors would be very valuable to a wide range of organizations.

    I say we give the government another chance in say 50 years after this last breach. That should give them time to clean up their mistakes.

  46. Idiots. by asackett · · Score: 1

    I'm not promoting or implying that I would take part in any rebellious acts when I point out that there are historical precedents that those in power would do well to consider. They are vastly outnumbered and as a result of this their power is not absolute.

    --

    Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.

  47. Fatually, they are wrong by renegadesx · · Score: 1

    Privacy IS absolute. Once Government breaches privacy and introduces surveillance you by definition do not have privacy anymore.
    Same goes for free speech, free speech IS absolute, once you have restrictions on speech, speech is by definition restricted and not free.
    This is a big reason why establishment parties left and right in all 5 of those countries need to be kicked out. Trump and Brexit are not loud enough warnings.

    --
    Make SELinux enforcing again!
  48. article summarised by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

    Cartoonishly villainous yet comically inept
      Gestapo officers, ostensibly responsible for computer security, advocate for draconian new badlaws to weaken computer security.

    1. Re:article summarised by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The route of holes drilled into people's head, probes and electric currents applied. Well torture also becomes legal, no private right to your own body, organs played with at will.

      Some pretty sick fuckers in the five eyes, real psychopathic cunts.

      Privacy is absolute you cunts and guaranteed by constitutional law. You get to force fuck all you rotting stinking pack of cunts. We do it, we force the politicians to write the laws, so that you fuck wit cunts in five eyes, are thrown the fuck out and replaced by human beings who believe in justice.

      You sticking pack of egoistic cunts in Five Eyes, listen up you pack of dead dog dick sucking morons, it is us, the electorate who do forcing and that includes forcing the firing of you egoistic big mouthed cunts. Remember who really writes the laws you fuckers.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  49. Re:Thank Booz Allen & the Feds more than Snowd by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

    the tradecraft and secrets involved should not be available to those without a need to know.

    Which, in a democracy, is every citizen.

    Security-state information hoarding is incompatible with democracy and liberty.

    --
    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
    You cannot wash away blood with blood
  50. Re:Thank Booz Allen & the Feds more than Snowd by DanDD · · Score: 1

    the tradecraft and secrets involved should not be available to those without a need to know.

    Which, in a democracy, is every citizen.

    Security-state information hoarding is incompatible with democracy and liberty.

    Reference please.

    The buying and selling of information and secrets has been alive and well in every democracy since the Greeks created it. In fact, ancient Greeks were famous for hiding secrets in creative ways.

    Now, if you were to say:

    Which, in a democracy, should be every citizen.

    Then I would be inclined to agree with you. But, that's a subjective judgement call. If enough of our peers agree, then it should be codified into law.

    --
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H. G. Wells
  51. Show me viable options. by Timothy2.0 · · Score: 1

    **IFF** these governments can show that they can install secure backdoors accessible only to law enforcement, *with the appropriate warrants and judicial oversight*, that cannot be subsequently hacked by nefarious actors, then, and only then, might I even *consider* whatever merits their argmuent may have.

    I won't hold my breath.

  52. Then we'll use systems they can't even track by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    The encryption is bothering them because they get a box they can't open... what if they don't even have a box?

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  53. Break your onw security absolutely by Kirth · · Score: 1

    If you want backdoors, you undermine your security. And this is asymmetric. Because the security of your hospitals, power plants, electrical grid, communications infrastructure, emergency response, water treatment plants, military(!) and so on, will also be subverted. In contrast, any adversaries probably don't care about infrastructure because they don't run any.

    Basically what these morons are saying is "we want to open our whole infrastructure to abuse by criminals, terrorists and other adversaries".

    --
    "The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
  54. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by gtall · · Score: 1

    "We are forced to vote for people we don't really know. Most people are ignorant about much of what happens around them that affects their lives. ". Yep, if only we could find that magical pool of smart, intelligent common everyday folk who won't mind having their entire life's history exposed.

    How about you go first? Post everything you have ever done here on slashdot for us all to see and consider...and no sneaky leaving out details that might appear unflattering. Be sure to include your name and home address, your occupation, your employer, your salary, your relatives, any organizations you may have joined,etc. Think hard, be complete, and don't be shy, lay it on us!!

  55. Re: There are 7 billion of us. How many are they? by jd · · Score: 1

    Nope. Because, for example in Britain, the police are largely disarmed too. And we like it that way. Total balance. No unfair advantage, no might makes right mentality by either side, civility rules UK.

    But I don't expect that to cut any ice with other societies. Different cultures have different views. That's ok, as long as they keep their noses out of ours.

    And of course that plays both ways. Brits should be wary of criticizing American culture, it has diverged in the last 300 years and is NOT just Britain with a funny accent. It's as foreign as Africa.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  56. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by mapkinase · · Score: 1

    It's an endless war that must be fought

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  57. Re:Exactly why you shouldn't trust locked firmware by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    Look at Google's principled stand on censored search-engines in China (*cough*), for example.

    Okay, let's look at it. There are search engines in China, big ones like Baidu, so Google not being there is not depriving them of search engines.

    So the question becomes, would Google being in China benefit ordinary Chinese people? Access to knowledge is generally regarded as a good thing, despite the censorship. As we have seen when search engines get really good it becomes harder to censor stuff too.

    For example, YouTube is blocked. There are some good videos teaching English for Chinese speakers on there, but people in China can't watch them. If Google censored some videos of Tiannamen Square and got YouTube unblocked, Chinese people could see those videos. And videos about how people in the west live, their hobbies, their views on all sorts of things, and their funny cats. That seems like a good thing all round.

    Of course we still want the Great Firewall to come down one day, and it could be a cynical money-grab, but overall it's hard to see how Chinese people would be any worse off with a censored Google than with no Google.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  58. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by houghi · · Score: 1

    As we have seen in the last several elections over the last 50 years pr so, voting does not work. Otherwise we would not have been in this mess.

    With the defacto bi-party system, people can select 1 item and vote for that. If any other item agrees with how they voted, you are lucky.
    And even then you can only hope that it will influence anything and they do not change their mind and vote against whatever they where for to begin with.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  59. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by postbigbang · · Score: 1

    Um, no. Totally disagree with you entirely. There is no recourse from this disagreement.

      It's ugly, but it's salvageable. And I must fight your attitude because you're part of the dystopia. Once you surrender your democracy, you're one of *them*, enslaved to ennui and servitude. Enjoy your overlords.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  60. Re:Exactly why you shouldn't trust locked firmware by houghi · · Score: 1

    The people will win on this because the corporations are on our side.

    That is an extremely scary thought.
    The fight goes between government and companies who buy that government. Nobody cares about the people.

    And if those people get ignored enough, they tend to not like it. And that is often followed by a lot of blood all over the place.

    I just hope that when (not if) that happens I am not here anymore. So guys, wait another 50-75 years for the next revolution.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  61. consistency by nten · · Score: 1

    I aplaud your willingness to support the freedoms of others even when you would personally prefer they not have them. Our job will have just begun when married lesbian couples and their adopted children can defend their peyote farms with rocket launchers and secure open source encryption, without having broken any laws. Need to work reasonable copyright lengths and right to repair in there somehow. John deer tractor modded to play legally torrented Disney movies maybe?

    --
    refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
  62. That's an oxymoron by BoFo · · Score: 1

    Privacy that is not absolute is not privacy.

  63. Re: There are 7 billion of us. How many are they? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

    Hence the massive propaganda campaign to disarm the people.

    Ask David Koresh or Randy Weaver about how their armaments helped them defend against the government. Your guns will not save you.

    --
    "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  64. Big Brother loves us. by biggaijin · · Score: 1

    It's only fair and right that Big Brother should know everything we are thinking or saying because Big Brother loves us and has all of our best interests in mind always. Where would we be without Big Brother taking care of us?

  65. Authoritarian Dictatorships by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    We're all pretty goddamned close at this point in the history of the human race to living in such when so-called 'law enforcement', acting more like jackbooted thugs, can start 'demanding' these things in the name of 'national security'.

    When strong encryption is OUTLAWED, only OUTLAWS will have strong encryption!
    Say it with me now, gentlemen and ladies. These assholes in our respective governments don't give a rat's ASS about us little irrelevant 'citizens', so long as their lust for power and control is always satisfied. Them, them, FUCK THEM sideways with a rusty chainsaw.

  66. Secure back doors are not possible by sjbe · · Score: 1

    issued a statement warning they believe "privacy is not absolute" and tech companies must give law enforcement access to encrypted data or face "technological, enforcement, legislative or other measures to achieve lawful access solutions.

    Privacy never was absolute and it isn't absolute today. That does not mean that privacy should not exist. They can have a backdoor just as soon as they can prove two things. 1) That the government will not have the capacity to abuse said backdoor and 2) that criminals and other bad actors will have no means of accessing said back door.

    Of course since both of those things are in actual fact impossible then they can fuck off and go die in a fire. There is no such thing as a secure backdoor by definition. If the cost of security is that the government has to work harder to spy on me then so much the better.

  67. Hanlon's Razor by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice."

    Hanlon's razor should apply here. Backdoors make law enforcement's job easier, so it's no surprise that most everyone in that business favors it. But that's where we all need to speak up and vote for those who will protect our rights.

    --
    Just another day in Paradise
  68. Re:Back doors are bad. Encryption is ALWAYS availa by laird · · Score: 1

    Well, one time pads are secure from compute-driven attacks, when used properly, but they have logistical problems. To be used broadly, you have to distribute the "pad" to everyone, repeatedly sending new "pads" periodically as you use up the old ones, and anyone who gets the new "pad" can read everything, so security is only as good as pad distribution. So, really, one time pads really only work in very specific cases, like communication between a very small group of trusted individuals who meet physically to exchange pads, and who can be trusted never to give a pad to anyone else. So it's not useful for (for example) eCommerce, banking, or general communications.

  69. Re:Exactly why you shouldn't trust locked firmware by WorBlux · · Score: 1

    "Hey that's an awfully neat tax avoidance scheme you have there, it'd be a shame is something happened to it"

  70. I bet Switzerland are behind this by VeryFluffyBunny · · Score: 1

    It's an evil plan: Somehow, Switzerland has managed to convince those 5 governments that they have to prevent decent, secure encryption from being commercially viable in those countries. Without decent encryption in their own countries, people will have to seek other countries that are known for their security and discretion where they can keep their data safe -- Switzerland of course!

    --
    Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
  71. Obligatory Braveheart Quote. by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

    King Edward I "Longshanks":
    Not the archers. My scouts tell me their archers are miles away and no threat to us. Arrows cost money. Use up the Irish. The dead cost nothing.

  72. ALL YOUR ENCRYPTION ARE BELONG TO US! by Ryyuajnin · · Score: 1

    "encourage information and communications technology service providers to voluntarily establish lawful access solutions to their products and services." Translated "We can't do anything without back doors, give us back doors or ELSE!"

  73. Re: No Universal Healthcare by Brujis · · Score: 1

    It's doing better than your country, so I am not sure what you are talking about.