Slashdot Mirror
Life In the Spanish City That Banned Cars (theguardian.com)
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a report via The Guardian: People don't shout in Pontevedra -- or they shout less. With all but the most essential traffic banished, there are no revving engines or honking horns, no metallic snarl of motorbikes or the roar of people trying make themselves heard above the din -- none of the usual soundtrack of a Spanish city. What you hear in the street instead are the tweeting of birds in the camellias, the tinkle of coffee spoons and the sound of human voices. Teachers herd crocodiles of small children across town without the constant fear that one of them will stray into traffic.
"Listen," says the mayor, opening the windows of his office. From the street below rises the sound of human voices. "Before I became mayor 14,000 cars passed along this street every day. More cars passed through the city in a day than there are people living here." Miguel Anxo Fernandez Lores has been mayor of the Galician city since 1999. His philosophy is simple: owning a car doesn't give you the right to occupy the public space. "How can it be that the elderly or children aren't able to use the street because of cars?" asks Cesar Mosquera, the city's head of infrastructures. "How can it be that private property -- the car -- occupies the public space?" Lores became mayor after 12 years in opposition, and within a month had pedestrianized all 300,000 sq m of the medieval centre, paving the streets with granite flagstones. "The historical center was dead," Lores says. "There were a lot of drugs, it was full of cars -- it was a marginal zone. It was a city in decline, polluted, and there were a lot of traffic accidents. It was stagnant. Most people who had a chance to leave did so. At first we thought of improving traffic conditions but couldn't come up with a workable plan. Instead we decided to take back the public space for the residents and to do this we decided to get rid of cars."
Some of the benefits mentioned in the report include less traffic accidents and traffic-related deaths, and decreased CO2 emissions (70%). "Also, withholding planning permission for big shopping centers has meant that small businesses -- which elsewhere have been unable to withstand Spain's prolonged economic crisis -- have managed to stay afloat," reports The Guardian.
"Listen," says the mayor, opening the windows of his office. From the street below rises the sound of human voices. "Before I became mayor 14,000 cars passed along this street every day. More cars passed through the city in a day than there are people living here." Miguel Anxo Fernandez Lores has been mayor of the Galician city since 1999. His philosophy is simple: owning a car doesn't give you the right to occupy the public space. "How can it be that the elderly or children aren't able to use the street because of cars?" asks Cesar Mosquera, the city's head of infrastructures. "How can it be that private property -- the car -- occupies the public space?" Lores became mayor after 12 years in opposition, and within a month had pedestrianized all 300,000 sq m of the medieval centre, paving the streets with granite flagstones. "The historical center was dead," Lores says. "There were a lot of drugs, it was full of cars -- it was a marginal zone. It was a city in decline, polluted, and there were a lot of traffic accidents. It was stagnant. Most people who had a chance to leave did so. At first we thought of improving traffic conditions but couldn't come up with a workable plan. Instead we decided to take back the public space for the residents and to do this we decided to get rid of cars."
Some of the benefits mentioned in the report include less traffic accidents and traffic-related deaths, and decreased CO2 emissions (70%). "Also, withholding planning permission for big shopping centers has meant that small businesses -- which elsewhere have been unable to withstand Spain's prolonged economic crisis -- have managed to stay afloat," reports The Guardian.
nailed it
I thought the Founding Fathers codified that we can drive our clean burning gasoline Cadillacs everywhere in the world? Methinks it's time to invade this troublemaking region.
While there are many more, and more important, things to consider; Pontevedra just made my list of cities that I might like to call home one day.
I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
So no cars just in the historical Centre ... big deal this is common here in Europe....
Teachers herd crocodiles of small children across town without the constant fear that one of them will stray into traffic.
Is that really the correct group name for children? A crocodile of children?
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Would you prefer bananas of children ? Snakes of children ? Cluster of children ? Gaggle ?
There were a lot of drugs, it was full of cars -- it was a marginal zone.
Not sure that "pedestrianizing" street corners here is going to reduce drugs.
what taxation are you referring to apart from "car parking", the cars still exist.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
I'm trying to understand how this works. They make it sound like there's no vehicles of any kind. Pontevedra is 118,3 km, equivalent to a square 10,9 kilometers on a side. Do people walk 5km or so to get into town? Even the elderly and disabled and infirm? And if they buy something in town, walk back hauling that? Even things like furniture? Shops in town, stocked by... 5km hike with a handcart? Can someone explain to me how exactly this works?
ED: Aha, just read the article:
Not the whole city of ~80k people, just 1/394th of the city. 0,3km^2. Just a big pedestrian mall, really.
Why is this news?
"Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
This is your only warning. We do not need your lazy, entitled blogging around here. We have no need for millennials who contribute nothing but selfies. If you even approach the area, you will be deported. We really should build a wall to keep out bad hombres like you people.
Even the "car-free zone" isn't actually completely car-free. E.g.:
They haven't talked about stocking shops, but if they're carving out exceptions like that, then I imagine vehicles for stocking shops also get exceptions.
There's also the obvious implications of the scheme:
Because, of course, people drive to it, then walk around in it, then drive home.
"Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
"Before I became mayor 14,000 cars passed along this street every day. More cars passed through the city in a day than there are people living here."
So this is a city of less than 14,000 people. That's a good size for this experiment.
Now would this work for some of Manhattan? Hell yeah. Brooklyn? Maybe. LA, Phoenix? Nope. For the right size and density yes.
My only question is how those adorable coffee shops get their supplies daily. Hand trucks? Burros? So a mostly-ban would be probably just as useful as a total ban, and restricting deliveries to very early morning or late night only disturbs the sleep of residents. Small price to pay. \s.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Cars are a negative influence.
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/07/how-cars-divide-america/565148/
I am living in a small town in Spain, similar size to Pontevedra, a few hours away from there and even with a pretty similar name. Here people use cars a lot and honk constantly (why?). I live outside the center, in an almost rural area where there is virtually no traffic. A very calmed neighborhood. Yesterday's night a bunch of idiots were honking for a while during the night!! Why??!! No traffic, no people, nothing to celebrate (don't get the point of these celebrations either)!! Doing it under very specific driving conditions seems logical (I do honk before using the lights when driving, but only as a last resource), but why in any other context? Not even in big cities with lots of traffic.
Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
"Teachers herd crocodiles of small children across town without the constant fear that one of them will stray into traffic"
what the fuck is a crocodile of small children? That's gotta be a mistranslation thing. Anyway, let's all not teach our children about the dangers of roads so they can just walk out into traffic when they're older and move away I guess.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
People don't shout in Pontevedra -- or they shout less
Just how loud are cars in Spain?
The whole city is the size of a typical shopping mall. There are no cars inside shopping malls - for the same reason.
Not the whole city of ~80k people, just 1/394th of the city. 0,3km^2. Just a big pedestrian mall, really.
Why is this news?
If you look around with Google Street View at what I assume is the proper location you can see a few delivery and other construction vehicles, but otherwise it's a lot of foot traffic.
The one thing I'm curious about is residents, if the city centre is all tourist and business than you can make do with foot traffic. But do residents with cars need to park outside the boundaries?
I stole this Sig
After all, with a ban on cars must come a significant reduction in taxation.
Not really. Without cars, more residents will shop in town for the convenience rather than driving out to the big box stores in the suburbs. Prices tend to be higher due to the reduction in competition, so tax revenues don't suffer.
I feel sorry for the poor people who get stuck shopping in pricier town shops. Seattle is trying this sort of thing (by eliminating parking) in some urban village areas. The unwritten message is, "Poor people GTFO. We want rich hipsters here. The rest of you move to Renton."
Have gnu, will travel.
Poor people don't drive, silly!
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
By the way less CO2, is less food for the trees...
Wow, how on earth did trees survive before we built cars, then!?
In Groningen, in the netherlands, they did something similar a *long* time ago. You can drive your car into the medieval center, but you can't drive *through*. The city center is divided into 4 quadrants, and you can't get from one quadrant to another without first going to the edge. Also there's hardly any parking.space inside. There are cars in the city, but not many.
Still has the same problem of extra busy edges, but still I think it's a success.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkeerscirculatieplan_Groningen (in dutch)
Car engines are not the noise issue.
Cars in Spain are as loud as anywhere else: not very, unless modified by the owner to make more noise than it did when it left the manufacturer.
Motorbikes and scooters in Spain are as loud as anywhere else in Europe: loud or very loud. In particular, small motorbikes are very much louder than cars.
I strongly suspect that the decrease in ambient noise volume is from two things, neither of them being car engines:
Removing the Spanish drivers and their horn buttons from the town, and
removing the scooter and motorcycle engines from the town.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled"
I cabn see this working in Spain. Not because of the unemployment rate, nor because of your misunderstanding of the siesta.
I see this working in Spain as people in Spain tend to be out of their house more than several other countries.
I have visited several Spanish cities where cars where not a thing in the center of the city. And in many European cities, traffic is either banned or discouraged.
I work in the center of Brussels and they have turned on of the main streets into a pedestrian zone.
In Leuven where I live, they have devided the city in 5 parts, so driving from one part to another you need to go out of the city and back into it. That encourages people to take a bicicle or walk.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
If they really had 14,000 cars or so traveling through there daily, where did all that traffic go? Surely it wasn't all local traffic. I have to assume his move to ban cars from passing through just increased the traffic in surrounding areas, as people were forced to detour around it.
This doesn't seem like a very workable plan for many cities. He might get away with it as long as he's a lone exception to the rule. But as soon as you have a few adjacent cities trying to pull it off, you're going to create some real traffic problems and effectively roadblock travelers from passing through that part of the country.
Pontevedra is 118,3 km, equivalent to a square 10,9 kilometers on a side. Do people walk 5km or so to get into town? Even the elderly and disabled and infirm?
You don't have to walk 5km to get to town because you're already in town when you're at the walking only zone.
According to the map, an average American mall has more area than where the cars are not allowed.
I know some people are trying to bring back the mall+residential concept here in order to keep malls from dying. The difference here is that Pontevedra is the city center instead of the middle of fucking nowhere.
This would make sense for any city that has never been rebuilt since the invention of cars. But it doesn't make for a useful model on existing major cities.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
Increased CO2 boosts crop yields, but reduces the nutrition level, for a net loss.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
they use to put us in pairs that hold hands and walk like soldiers behind the pair before yours. Easy for the teacher to count you every 5 mins.
I have no idea what âoebecame mayor after 12 years in oppositionâ means or implies and Google is giving me nothing helpful.
I spent several years fixing copiers and printers. I have also worked in the HVAC industry. When I see these car free articles my first though is, "what about maintenance and repair?"
We visited Florence once and found it much more pleasant as a pedestrian tourist because of their traffic restrictions.
https://www.visitflorence.com/...
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
And they were cold, very cold. Much warmer now. Trees are happier now, just ask one.
Pedestrianized zones in city centers are common across Europe. It's typical to see 'loading hours' in the early morning when delivery trucks and garbage collection can roam. Emergency vehicles and police tend to get a free pass so the roads need to be passable.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
The city's expenditures should be much lower since most car haters suggest a huge portion of city revenue goes to funding cars. If you're correct, the city might be able to eliminate all forms of taxation except sales tax
ORLY? Near the end of the quoted part of TFA we find:
That was in 1999. They granite-paved more than 17 square kilometers. Any bets on whether they're still paying it off a generation later? Or how many times they paid for it when you include interest?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Oops. Slipped a decimal point - by more than one. (Should have used a calculator.) It's only a little over half a square kilometer., not 17+
Still,crash-programming a granite repaving of half a square kilometer isn't cheap, either.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Ditches wouldn't work because of all the underground infrastructure. However, leaving the ground level to cars and building a network of elevated walkways into 2nd floor storefronts would work. Moving the cars up isn't ideal because then the pedestrians no longer have natural light, not to mention it's more expensive to put the heavier thing on a level above the lighter thing.
Each city block would have an elevator. To prevent the obvious problems with that, there should also be a restroom next to said elevator.
The ground floor storefronts would still exist / be accessible by going downstairs. Bicycles can use the old sidewalks as bike lanes.
I've lived both places, too.
This sort of plan could work very well in the US. I wouldn't mind parking on a perimeter and having a walk, even in -10F winters. I like to support local businesses because they're my neighbors, my community, and I don't have to deal with rotten online customer "support". The big boxes hold only price/selection as an advantage. I'd rather the profits go locally.
It's nice to sit in front of a family owned restaurant on a quiet day when the trucks aren't belching smoke, the coal-rollers are absent, the race-to-the-next-stoplight-on-my-crotch-rocket-children are gone, and there might be a songbird nearby, or a musician on the corner.
The politics aren't in question, rather, fealty to paying the Koch Brothers their gasoline/petrol/diesel due. I know it's contrary to The American Way to get exercise by walking from place to place, but it's certainly less expensive than alternatives, public or private.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
you can be almost anywhere in the Bay Area in under 15 minutes. With stops.
15 minutes transportation time. 2 hours to get through security and another hour to find some to park near the hyperloop station
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
They're quiet, not really a car or motorcycle... Hrmmm, seems like Bird should suddenly show up and take over! ;)
This sig intentionally left blank.
While there are many more, and more important, things to consider; Pontevedra just made my list of cities that I might like to call home one day.
Not to take away anything from the city, but we have suburbs larger than Pontevedra (which makes its social experiment possible.)
If you can afford to move and live there, by all means. I just hope you are paying attention to job prospects in such a small city with double digit unemployment rate, with the Spaniard economy experiencing a lot of hurting.
It would be a nice place for retirement (though not necessarily the cheapest.)
No need to go that far away - probably most of the benefits of going car free can be had via superblocks - https://www.theguardian.com/ci...
I always thought being able to drive directly into my house garage was a massive luxury with clear exernalities like road noise, traffic danger and increased pollution, and honestly if I could instead park away from my house and had to walk there to take my parked car (or more likely, public transit or taxi), I'd consider it a good tradeoff (esp. considering kids would be safe from traffic in that superblock)
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Poor people don't drive
They park more often than not, gas prices being what the are. But in many places, people will lose their housing before they give up a vehicle. It might seem like false economics, but when you get booted out of a rental, you can still sleep in your car. Seattle recently lost a case* where they towed a man's pickup truck. The guy won the court case which stated that his truck, being his residence, was protected by the state's homestead law.
Go to a few auto/DIY discussion groups and you will find numerous people making plans for eventual homelessness by purchasing and outfitting a vehicle.
*I think they threw the case. Seattle has always looked the other way in cases of homeless parking. They only enforced laws upon receipt of complaints. Now they can just point at the court and say, "Sorry. They said no."
Have gnu, will travel.
What in the fucking vuck is rudeness and the kernel and the SJW religion got to do with congestion mitigation in the real world ?? Thou shall bow before the all powerful all knowing townhall planners ?
The trucks are still going to be there, unless you plan on the restaurant only serving water?
Industry in general can't work without road access. If it's not trucks, then it'll need to be rail. The kind of city you envision is only suitable for service industries and consumer businesses. That means jobs will be outside the city's boundaries (if they exist at all), and people will need to commute out to get to work (probably with a car).
When I see these car free articles my first though is, "what about maintenance and repair?"
In a pedestrianized city? You are clearly talking a load of old cobblers.
IN all of the pedestrian zones I've seen across the continent in the EU and the US and Canada, trucks still get through. They have to. Even in Istanbul.
Commute? Take a train or bus. People in many parts of the world don't consider buses to be creepy. They're clean, run on time, are inexpensive, and are fairly well planned.
Pedestrian zones can be large or small. I wish there were more. Supply chain issues can be dealt with easily and readily. Visit some to understand how logistics work, and what the benefit is. Carry an umbrella. That's as bad as it gets.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
1. Don't walk in the winter, or live nearby. Or move south.
2. Order online what you can't find. This is easy in most places.
3. Do stay inside if you want. That fresh air stuff is deadly.
4. If the sounds of nature don't enthuse you, do indeed stay inside. To me, they mean the environment's healthy. That's good for you in both direct and indirect ways.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Thank you for your privilege.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
When you go to pick up a date, you have to _literally_ pick her up!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I've thought of that, crowded cities should have separate levels for vehicle and pedestrian traffic so they don't have to stop for each other. Problem is, all the main entrances to buildings are now on the level that would become the vehicle-only level.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
>"With all but the most essential traffic banished, there are no revving engines or honking horns, no metallic snarl of motorbikes or the roar of people trying make themselves heard above the din -"
And banning motor vehicles is way overkill. A modern, in-spec, unaltered car or motorcycle makes very little noise. I would say 90% of typical vehicle noise comes from illegally modified exhaust systems, ancient and/or very poorly maintained vehicles, modified stereo sound systems with huge speakers/amps, and large/commercial vehicles (dump trucks, buses, package trucks, semis, etc).
You should join us, oh holy, revered maker of moolah. We shall sprinkle rose petals upon your path to the bus stop, and shall stop our awful flatulence so that your journey will be pleasant. May the heavens shine upon you. We are unworthy of your tax dollars. I'm so sorry to have disturbed you with my miniscule commentary. Be blessed, oh rich one! Be blessed!
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
The out-of-control fire is because of fire prevention; fire prevention that led to lots and lots of burnable stuff all over the place. Had there been ordinary small forest fires every few years, this wouldn't have happened.
I don't eat trees, and we don't have any giraffes in my neighborhood.
No thanks sweetheart, but I do appreciate you reducing your quality of life. Makes it easier for people like me to enjoy more creature comforts!
You're basically bringing up the big problem with the American mall. A lot of American malls are named "Blahblah Village" or "Blahblah Town Square" -- but what is a village or town without RESIDENTS? American malls are basically hamlets without the "ham" (in this case, they etymology of "ham" being a cognate for "home").
If you stack apartment buildings on top of a shopping mall, you get a traditional walkable village with the added benefit of climate control. Your mall will now never become a dead mall because it has its customer base built-in, and nobody needs to drive on a daily basis because most of their daily needs are within walking distance (and if they work in a different mall-town you can easily build quick transit between them).
A common misconception is the idea that those pregnancies in other countries are "unplanned". In most human cultures (and in most species), maximizing offspring is a good thing -- it increases the survivability of your species/race/culture/family. It's only in certain very wealthy cultures where the value of the individual has eclipsed the value of a family that people no longer want to reproduce. Even then in these wealthy cultures, many older individuals wind up spiraling into depression because they don't have children or grandchildren.
That's why some third world countries have incidents where they violently oppose vaccination programs -- because sometimes someone starts a rumor that the vaccines are secretly including contraceptives. People still want to have 10 children to make their family and tribe strong with many providers/fighters.
Delivery will be done during the morning hours and ONLY for delivery. e.g. from 7:00 till 10:00
I work in the center of Brussels and do not even own a car. Remember that public transport is a thing.
I know of one company that has deals with the public transport company, so more busses drive between the station and their HQ. They will pick up the tab.
At another place buses stopped at 20:00, but we worked to 21:00 and we looked into extending the bus hours. In the end it was cheaper for the few people to take a taxi. So for more than a year I took a taxi form work to the train station. Paid by the company.
Now there are more people working there, so bus frequency has increased and hours have been adapted.
Yes. Some people still go to work by car. The thing is that there are alternatives. Friend of mine ownes a car, but rather uses the train than the stress of sitting in a car where the mile costs money. Public transport is paid at least 40% and of 100% by the company.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I don't think you addressed my comment. It's certainly fine for service and consumer industries, but other industries need deliveries more often than once a day.
The problem (at least where I live) is that the malls themselves are located in places where nobody wants to live. Who wants to live in a warehouse located 15 miles (and 45 minutes during rush hour) away from the city center? You couldn't build enough housing to make a mall self sufficient. These things usually serve communities of tens of thousands, and are designed to attract tourist/shopping traffic from as much as 100 miles away.
There is a dying mall near me that is less than 15 years old, and it is so big that it has to be located outside of the suburbs. Their theory was that "if you build it..."
Turns out nobody came. And there aren't any mass transportation routes or even realistic highways near the thing, so nobody wants to live in or around it. Hell, I just want them to hurry up and bulldoze the thing so they can stop running the lights over the empty parking lot all night. Its a light pollution eyesore.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
All five of the warmest five years on record in my area have been since 2012. The fact that we're experiencing an extreme drought is not a coincidence. This area would not be catching fire, especially in September, in a year when we had a remotely normal climate.
Facts are stubborn things. You can stand outside at noon in the noon and deny the sun exists - "no, there is no radiation, or at very least not solar radiation, you know nothing about radiation, get over it" - but you will still get burned.
There can be plenty of legitimate disagreements about what responses to global warming are appropriate. But claiming it's not happening, in the face of a decade of record temperatures and melting ice, or claiming it has nothing to do with us, in the face of obvious science about what CO2, methane, etc do and the fact that we've doubled their atmospheric concentrations in the past 70 years, is simply delusional.
While I really dislike moving, I would move out of that place. If I need to go somewhere, I will only walk there if it takes me 5 minutes or less. If not, I'll drive. Even if driving would take longer.
I guess I would walk (or use a bike) to work only if the commute time was taken out of my work time. So, I work 8 to 17, so I go out of my home at 8 and go out of the office at whatever time so I can reach my home by 17. As it is now, I'd rather drive (takes me 5-10 minutes) instead of taking up my own time for a slower method of travel. Oh, I would walk somewhere that takes longer than 5 minutes in the summer only if I had a portable AC - my home has AC, my car has AC and the office has AC - I do not intend on staying anywhere at 28C (or even 25C) temperature for a second more than I absolutely have to.
And if I get into a traffic jam or whatever, it's still better than walking (even if it takes the same amount of time) because I can sit in my car, with AC or heat on and not having it rain on my head.
Where I live, it takes me 5-10 minutes to drive to work. If I took the bus, I would have to first walk to the bus stop, wait for the bus, then walk from the bus stop to the office. It would take me much longer than 10 minutes. As nobody is paying me for that time (or rather, my work hours do not account for the time to get to/from office) I'd rather drive. Especially considering that I can go home for lunch and I can go to a store etc after work or during lunch hours. Oh, and I sometimes have to drive to a client, sometimes delivering heavy servers.
Also, if I get to the bus stop 1 minute late, I have to wait for another bus. If I get to my car 1 minute late, I arrive at work 1 minute late.
Even if the time taken for both options was similar, I would still drive. My car has AC to use in the summer and heat for winter, so even if I am in a traffic jam, I do not get hot or cold. There is no AC for walking to the bus stop and at the bus stop and not all buses have AC. I do not particularly like to be completely drenched in sweat because its 28C outside and I spent 30 minutes (walking to the bus stop, waiting for the bus, in the bus with no AC etc). Even if AC in my car fails, I still can open windows or just use the fan to somewhat cool myself down. Oh and I get to the AC cooled office (or home) faster.
And in my car I can listen to whatever music I like at whatever volume I like.
The only time I would use public transport if it took me at least 5 times longer to drive there, but then I would seriously consider finding a new job in a better accessible location.