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FCC Falsely Claims Community Broadband an 'Ominous Threat To First Amendment' (vice.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Motherboard: The Trump FCC has declared towns and cities that vote to build their own broadband networks an "ominous threat to the First Amendment." The claims were made last week during a speech given at the telecom-funded Media Institute by FCC Commissioner Mike O'Rielly. In his speech, O'Rielly insinuated, without evidence, that community owned and operated broadband networks would naturally result in local governments aggressively limiting American free speech rights. "I would be remiss if my address omitted a discussion of a lesser-known, but particularly ominous, threat to the First Amendment in the age of the Internet: state-owned and operated broadband networks," claimed O'Rielly.

In his speech, O'Rielly highlighted efforts by the last FCC, led by former boss Tom Wheeler, to encourage such community-run broadband networks as a creative solution to private sector failure. O'Rielly subsequently tried to claim, without evidence, that encouraging such networks would somehow result in government attempts to censor public opinion. "Municipalities such as Chattanooga, Tennessee, and Wilson, North Carolina, have been notorious for their use of speech codes in the terms of service of state-owned networks, prohibiting users from transmitting content that falls into amorphous categories like 'hateful' or "threatening," O'Rielly claimed. The closest O'Rielly gets to supporting evidence appears to be a 2015 white paper written by Professor Enrique Armijo for the ISP-funded Free State Foundation. That paper similarly alleges that standard telecom sector language intended to police "threatening, abusive or hateful" language somehow implies community-run ISPs are more likely to curtail user speech. But municipal broadband experts say the argument has no basis in fact.

156 of 313 comments (clear)

  1. Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    where doublespeak is the norm.

    Thanks to all you ass hats that voted for Trump.

    1. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you don't think capitalist ISPs are already doing that and more, you didn't even read todys tech news.

    2. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      where doublespeak is the norm.

      Says the victim of doublespeak. Think it through. Even in TFS the doublespeak is right there. "O'Rielly insinuated, without evidence, that community owned and operated broadband networks would naturally result in local governments aggressively limiting American free speech rights" alongside the phrase "Trump FCC",

      So government-controlled broadband good but government-controlled FCC bad. Does that get it through to you? Or do you need it spelled out?

    3. Re: Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Exactly. Just look today at what happened to Gab.

    4. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Pseudonym · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Governments are not legally allowed to implement content-related speech filters. Sure, it may take a lawsuit to fix that, but that lawsuit will succeed. Corporations usually are allowed to "censor".

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    5. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Hmm... I doubt Lenin was against hate speech. I have to admit, I don't know his speeches too well, but considering that he fought a civil war, I doubt he was above calling the Whites assholes and worse.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You know what would be a good solution to that? How about Network Neutrality laws?

    7. Re: Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

      I hear this guy has a Facebook and Twitter page too. Why didn't they get the boot?

    8. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      To be far, it is just as likely to happen by far right fascist like Trump's admin, as it is by a far left communist regime.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    9. Re: Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by jd · · Score: 1

      More so. The current regime censors already, so that's fact. The other is purely speculative.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    10. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In th United States, the general idea is that freedom of speech is about protecting the speech you hate the most. Not for people you agree with.

      While I think the examples you cite are abhorrent ideals, they are in fact protected speech. If you start banning one type of speech, who is to say that next it won't be YOUR speech that gets banned as it is critical regarding the government in power. Today you want to ban racist hate speech, tomorrow it might be the speech of for example Democrats who are critical of the President.

      There are reasons why protection of freedom of speech is in the Constitution, to keep people who think they know better from limiting the speech of others.

      Now kindly go fuck yourself.

    11. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      In most civilized countries, possibly including the USA, the government can and should take down anything inciting violence or hatred, Surely you're not going to argue that posts that talks about a 'kike infestation' and hint at 'final solutions' (translated from the original German, I suppose) should be protected by free-speech laws?

      I'm saying that it would almost certainly be illegal for a municipal government to implement a content-based filter on an ISP that they ran. I am saying no more and no less than this.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    12. Re: Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by riverat1 · · Score: 2

      Seriously? That was your take away from that?

      Well, at least Obama didn't take your guns.

      You can still go shoot up some people today if you want.

      Well done protecting those rights.

      Off topic but what I find hilarious is now that Obama is no longer President the gun manufacturers and gun shops have seen a big drop in business. If they really want to improve their bottom line they should give their campaign donations to the Dems.

    13. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      If "Someone who's left of Lenin" implements an any-kind-of-speech filter on a government run communications service", then they'll be running foul of the first amendment and you'll be able to take legal action against them.

      If someone who is more like Trump implements an any-kind-of-speech filter on their privately owned monopoly communications service, then you're fucked.

      So you just basically came up with a very good reason to support municipal broadband over private monopoly operators. Well done.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    14. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      More bothsiderism from someone too lazy to dig in and face the facts.

    15. Re: Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Of course, because the Race War (TM) has now been cancelled.

      The new QAnon and Leftist conspiracy theories aren't nearly as compelling. Race War (TM) had decades, maybe centuries of build up and re-enforcement behind it. QAnon is some weird internet thing and few people have ever seen these Leftists.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    16. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Well, since this is becoming both more common and more visible with commercial platforms, and there is no reason to believe 'Hate Speech' filters won;t be implemented by commercial service providers, I doubt municipal providers will be unique or worse.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    17. Re: Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You kind of lost me there. I read up about QAnon on Wikipedia the other day and they're just another wacky fringe right wing conspiracy group.

    18. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by spun · · Score: 1

      Private companies are not covered by the first amendment. They own the infrastructure, and may do with it as they please. They don't even have to tell you the rules they choose to operate by. As it should be. Our government, on the other hand, operates under the Constitution. Argue about how that would effect things all you like, try to spin that it wouldn't matter. But the fact exists, there is precedent to go by, and your arguments will need to take that into account, or be irrelevant.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    19. Re: Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Indeed, same as the race war preppers buying all the ammo when Obama was elected. They may be fringe but they have significant buying power and influence their non-believing friends to stock up too.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    20. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      In most civilized countries, possibly including the USA, the government can and should take down anything inciting violence or hatred,

      I am enraged and appalled by your statement and take it as a slur against my entire group. As it is obviously hate-filled and causes me and mine undo prolonged stress it should be taken down.

    21. Re:Welcome To Your Trumpian Future by zwarte+piet · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen conclusive proof that the US exists.

  2. Interesting perspective by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's an interesting perspective, since it's the FCC that is in charge of actual censorship.

    They're the ones who won't let you swear on broadcast television, not your local municipality.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    1. Re:Interesting perspective by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Begone Troll. Ajit is trying to control the internet as well. There is a third choice in which allow neither government nor corporations access to manipulate and/or censor the internet.

    2. Re:Interesting perspective by Gavagai80 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If your government-owned ISP tries to stop you from exercising your free speech, you can sue them. And you might even win, because the government isn't allowed to interfere with your free speech according to the constitution.

      If your privately-owned broadband monopoly tries to stop you from exercising your free speech, you can shut up and do whatever they tell you to do. You have no legal recourse because private business has every legal right to curtail your speech however the company sees fit.

      If your government really wants to stop you from exercising your free speech, they'll ensure that you have a privately-owned ISP and they'll apply their leverage over said ISP to ensure that the ISP controls your speech for them. An off the record back room deal to provide a tax break or skip regulatory enforcement will easily convince a private ISP to play ball, and it'll be very difficult to prove the government's guiding role to have a chance at fighting it in court.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    3. Re: Interesting perspective by rogoshen1 · · Score: 2

      Provably wrong as disempowered government means people are at risk of individuals with an agenda directly impeding my freedom.

      Hopefully one day the Swiss will unite behind their anemic federal government and make sure once and for all their interests and rights can be protected by a large enough entity to keep the corporations at bay.

    4. Re:Interesting perspective by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

      Ask yourself this. Who is going to be more CAPABLE of the technical task of effective censorship: A HUGE corporate conglomerate or a small-to-medium municipality ISP? Yes, you shouldn't blindly trust the government, but the major ISPs have shown themselves to have no ethics at all.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    5. Re:Interesting perspective by farble1670 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm a fan of net neutrality but lets not for a second pretend you can trust government more than corporations,

      If Comcast starts throttling my Netflix, can I elect a new CEO? I think we all see the point here.

    6. Re:Interesting perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If your government really wants to stop you from exercising your free speech, they'll ensure that you have a privately-owned ISP and they'll apply their leverage over said ISP to ensure that the ISP controls your speech for them. An off the record back room deal to provide a tax break or skip regulatory enforcement will easily convince a private ISP to play ball, and it'll be very difficult to prove the government's guiding role to have a chance at fighting it in court.

      Which is why the private companies need to be held to the same standard. Otherwise, the companies become loopholes that the government can use to violate your rights from the shadows with impunity.

      But back on topic:

      If the FCC is going to claim that local communities building additional alternative communications networks somehow threatens unrestricted communication for all, they have set themselves quite the high bar to reach. One which has a name: Obvious regulatory capture.

      Pai needs to be shipped back to Verizon already, and while we're at it we need to ship them some summons notices. The first for bribing public officials, and the rest under RICO.

    7. Re: Interesting perspective by drjzzz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Swiss?. They are all about letting their corporations do whatever dirty work they want so long as they do it outside their country. Pollution flushed down the Rhein? Fine. Contamination sent over the border into Italy? No problem. Con 3rd world mothers into buying Nestle 'milk'? Bravo and encore! Secure the wealth of arms traders, drug pushers, human traffickers, tyrants, dictators...deal!

      --
      to err is human, to forgive is divine, to forget is... umm...
    8. Re:Interesting perspective by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Except a community owned network is arguably more likely to want to curtain your freedom of speech. It's in a companies best interest to serve as many users as possible, it's in a government's interest to serve as few as possible and to require as many as possible to think like they do. And the history of the government rolling back amendment granted rights would indicate that they are more than capable to removing these rights firm people they don't like.

      The potential problems only arise when there is no private choice. But are ISPs likely to be able to compete with a business run at a loss or breaking even? Or are they likely to lay lines for the 1% of people kicked off their government ISP?

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    9. Re:Interesting perspective by totallyarb · · Score: 1

      If Comcast starts throttling my Netflix, can I elect a new CEO?

      On the other hand, if it's Trump who starts throttling your Netflix, can you actually elect a new President? Do you honestly think that THAT issue, among all the millions, is the one on which the country will be making its electoral decision? What if at the next election your choice is between someone you agree with on economics, foreign policy, health and defence, but they want to throttle your internet, or someone who offers you the best internet imaginable but will also trash the economy and start a load of unnecessary wars?

      The underappreciated value of NOT having the government take control of everything is that it gives more fine-grained control - different people make the decisions about different things.

      And no, you can't elect a new CEO of Comcast, but you can switch to a different service provider a lot more easily than you can switch to a different government.

      --
      -- Note to Mods: There is a good reason there's no "-1 Disagree" option. --
    10. Re:Interesting perspective by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would a government owned municipal broadband provider want to serve as few as possible? That would just increase their cost per subscriber making more likely a private ISP could compete with them.

    11. Re:Interesting perspective by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Because they are not making a profit. Since each user added just means a greater loss, or at best . When the profit per subscriber is not a positive number, you gain nothing from flooding your network with users degrading the service of all.

      Think of it like health care systems.
      Where I live, Canada, we have government operated Healthcare. So you need to show your ID at check in and prove they must provide you medical aid. We have laws preventing non-canadians from coming here and using our medical system. Because while users flooding the hospitals might bring down our COST PER USER, it definitely increases the TOTAL COSTS (which is the only number that matters).

      While Americans hospitals can actively try and attract as many users as possible, because more users treated is the best possible outcome for everyone.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    12. Re:Interesting perspective by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that municipal broadband always operates at a loss but I've never seen anything that indicates that. I'd be surprised if that was the case in Chattanooga given the number of subscribers.

    13. Re:Interesting perspective by totallyarb · · Score: 1

      "You are exaggerating here. Who is talking about taking control of everything?"

      You're saying a government-run ISP is not the government taking control of internet provision? Or are you just taking my "everything" too literally? Fine, I'll rephrase: "the more things are handled by the government, the less fine-grained control people have over the decisions that are made on their behalf." Happy now?

      "And what can you do if you live in an area where there is NO other choices?"

      "No other choices" is literally the exact situation you're in when it comes to your government, too. So, in your worst case-scenario (no other competitors, which incidentally I don't believe is actually true anywhere when you consider other options like mobile internet), you are in effectively the same position with regard to ISPs as you are with governments. Except then, to change ISP you may have to move to a different town; to change governments you'd have to move to a different country altogether.

      --
      -- Note to Mods: There is a good reason there's no "-1 Disagree" option. --
    14. Re: Interesting perspective by shaitand · · Score: 1

      You forgot to elucidate your reasoning.

      You seem to be ignoring context, like the story and the post I replied to.

      If you feel that government censorship being a bad thing that needs to be stopped isn't a given there really isn't anything further to discuss. But in a country that holds freedom of speech and expression with the people and not their government as sovereign it is a given. If it can happen, measures must be taken to prevent it. It isn't just about today, laws can stand for hundreds of years or even longer, you don't make a law for today you make laws with the intention they should work and protect the sovereignty and freedom of the people from oppressive government even hundreds of years from now.

      Maybe wherever you are from didn't have to crawl out from under the thumb of an oppressive tyrannical regime but ours did.

    15. Re: Interesting perspective by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "Provably wrong as disempowered government means people are at risk of individuals with an agenda directly impeding my freedom."

      Not at all, you can create strong enforcement powers which are very specific, require transparency, have checks and balances, and most importantly very little wiggle room. Further, small offenses and limitations on freedom enacted at large scale have a much more subtle and dangerous impact than overt direct action by an individual.

    16. Re:Interesting perspective by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Its true that it does not have to, and arguably most often will not operate at a loss. But profit will never be their main concern. The main concern of the bosses boss will always be to use the service to first get re-elected, and their stated mission will always be to provide the best service for their constituents.

      Look at the one thing the story focuses on, User happiness, it says not only is it an important statistic, but THE important statistic. And how do you get the best possible user satisfaction? Definitely not by running after as many users as possible. Possibly by kicking off the negative people that don't agree with your politics and will 1. give you bad user scores and 2. spread disent about the ability of your boss to govern.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    17. Re:Interesting perspective by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Exactly, the network should be a set of dumb links with the only intelligence in public and open source protocols with no awareness of source and destination corporate or personal identity performing routing and redundancy. Nobody, including the ISP whether it is corporate or government, should have access to restrict it in any way whatsoever.

    18. Re:Interesting perspective by shaitand · · Score: 1

      You won't know. Period. So no, you can't elect a new anybody and police aren't elected. Do you have any idea how much crooked crap actually goes on at the city/county/and even state level that people never hear about?

    19. Re:Interesting perspective by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Agreed. But what do I know, I'm apparently -1 Flamebait or Redundant for daring to suggest we should be wary of this as a future possibility whether we agree with the FCC crap or not. It isn't necessarily about what is happening now. What about 10 years from now when you aren't looking or things slowly introduced over the next 100 years?

      Some genies are very hard to put back in the bottle.

    20. Re:Interesting perspective by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if it's Trump who starts throttling your Netflix, can you actually elect a new President? Do you honestly think that THAT issue, among all the millions, is the one on which the country will be making its electoral decision?

      Sigh. Government is layered. We have city councils and mayors that do look at issues like this. The issue is when you have a federal government that prevents localities, towns, cities, and states from making up their own minds.

      The underappreciated value of NOT having the government take control of everything is that it gives more fine-grained control - different people make the decisions about different things.

      What does that even mean? Each person will decide whether their Netflix gets throttled?

      And no, you can't elect a new CEO of Comcast, but you can switch to a different service provider a lot more easily than you can switch to a different government.

      Okay you aren't from around here (the USA). Most localities do not have competition in the ISP space, and where there are >1 player, they've agreed to not compete over specific neighborhoods.

    21. Re:Interesting perspective by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      You won't know. Period.

      I won't know if my cable bill goes up or Netflix starts buffering?

      and police aren't elected

      I know right. Just last night the police busted down my door for using too much bandwidth.

      Do you have any idea how much crooked crap actually goes on at the city/county/and even state level that people never hear about?

      No, but I'm sure you do, because you are smarter than the rest of us sheep.

    22. Re:Interesting perspective by shaitand · · Score: 1

      You won't know why Netflix starts buffering. Also the priorities change with government. That is something a cable company would want to throttle not government.

      "I know right. Just last night the police busted down my door for using too much bandwidth."

      Too much bandwidth? You are really obsessed with the least concerning possibilities of a lack of net neutrality. What about censoring news, altering it in flight, censorship under the guise of protecting children, blocking crime, decency and blocking porn, etc

    23. Re:Interesting perspective by HeckRuler · · Score: 2

      It's in a companies best interest to serve as many users as possible, it's in a government's interest to serve as few as possible and to require as many as possible to think like they do.

      ha, that's cute. You've got to step away from the propaganda machine dude.

      It's in the companies best interest to sign up as many users as possible and then deliver as little service as possible. They get paid and don't do much actual work. "Bu bu bu but then I'll take my business elsewhere and the free market competition will reign supreme". Yeah, sure. And I'd agree. If there was a free market. But there's not. The top telecoms refuse to compete with each other and very blatantly carved up the nation into territories. The only ISPs that compete would be... what? Google fiber trying to come to town? But the telecoms bottom out the price in any city they come to, sue them for rights to touch city property poles, and are generally anti-competitive. If Mr. Moneybags Google can't overcome the barrier to entry for running a competitive ISP, THERE IS NO FREE MARKET. And in that scenario, businesses are just about as bad as any government boogeyman you can imagine.

      On the flip side, to wear an entirely different shade of propaganda glasses, it's in the government's interests to serve as many as possible to the best of their ability for as cheap as possible so that the voting constituents are as happy as can be so that the heads of government get re-elected. And that's bullshit. It's also propaganda, but it makes about as much sense as yours. The less propaganish version: If enough people are pissed at the municipal wifi, it'll be a political issue with the mayor. Which is arguably MORE control than they have under monopoly shitsville.

      Now if you say "if things were SO bad under the telcoms, someone would step up and offer competition"... that's EXACTLY what the call for municipal wifi is about. It's SO BAD we'd even prefer government run services.

      And the history of the government rolling back amendment granted rights

      My Goodness! That would be comparable to business violating terms of a contract! Which they NEVER do... But wait a second, where has the government rolled on amendments? Are you talking about the fact that there are hate-speech laws and you can't go buy a nuke at 7/11? Well kiddo, companies ALSO bend the rules wherever possible if they can squeeze a buck out of it.

  3. bigger word than "lie" by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's stunning how dishonest this administration has been. I mean, all politicians lie, but none have ever done it with such relish and fervor as the Trump administration, and certainly none has ever come close to the sheer volume of falsehoods. It's a daily torrent of horseshit.

    "Community broadband is a threat to the First Amendment" is like saying "Republicans are the ones who want to protect coverage for pre-existing conditions," even though they've voted like 60 times to end coverage for pre-existing conditions.

    I guess what surprises me most is that there are so many willing participants, like the FCC, and the GOP caucus in congress and members of the cabinet. They lie and then they laugh at you for buying it.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:bigger word than "lie" by miquels · · Score: 1

      Wait what, the russian trolls are stil active on slashdot? Well, perhaps slashdot is not dead after all :)

      --
      Living is a horizontal fall
    2. Re:bigger word than "lie" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      PopeRatzo is 100% troll. He's never said anything coherent in his entire posting history, and there's no prospect of logical argument with his blather.

      The only Troll here is you. Pope is correct in his assessment.

      See Trump and the Republicans lied about tax cuts and it would be revenue neutral - that's how they had to sell it to give the tax cuts to their donors.
      Well, the national debt is skyrocketing because the Republicans are borrow and spend.
      Now, Mitch McConnell and the other lying Republicans are blaming entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare for the debt. And they are also lying in saying the Democrats want to cut those. Yeah, the Democrats are going to cut their babies off.
      And then there is the lie about the caravan. Without any evidence, the Republicans and Trump are saying that there are MS-13, ISIS and other terrorists.
      The fact that Trump supporters actually believe that terrorists and drug gang members are going to WALK thousands of miles and wait months to do "bad things" is just laughable and shows their complete stupidity.

      I cannot see how a rational person can defend those people and support them.

      Oh wait lgw, the best you can retort with is "Orange Man racist. Orange Man bad." I tell ya, your posts are perfect examples of just about every logical fallacy there is.

    3. Re:bigger word than "lie" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's stunning how dishonest this administration has been. I mean, all politicians lie, but none have ever done it with such relish and fervor as the Trump administration, and certainly none has ever come close to the sheer volume of falsehoods. It's a daily torrent of horseshit.

      "Community broadband is a threat to the First Amendment" is like saying "Republicans are the ones who want to protect coverage for pre-existing conditions," even though they've voted like 60 times to end coverage for pre-existing conditions.

      I guess what surprises me most is that there are so many willing participants, like the FCC, and the GOP caucus in congress and members of the cabinet. They lie and then they laugh at you for buying it.

      We are at war with Eastasia. Eurasia is our ally. 2+2=5.

      Seriously, the 1st would make it harder to censor since town or city owned community broadband would be subject the 1st; unlike privately owned broadband. Threats to profits, however, are another thing. Follow the money.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    4. Re:bigger word than "lie" by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Seriously, the 1st would make it harder to censor since town or city owned community broadband would be subject the 1st; unlike privately owned broadband.

      Hmmm. Is there an existing parallel? Why yes, there is. PEG channels (public, education, government) are carried on the local cable TV but run by the government. And yet, those channels have standards for what can appear there. I would like to see someone try to get a half hour program that contains nothing but people saying the word "fuck" onto the government-run public access channel. I'm pretty sure that if a high school student tried the same thing on one of the education channels they'd find themselves in trouble, too.

    5. Re:bigger word than "lie" by shplopt · · Score: 1

      It's the idea that people who don't share a particular narrow worldview are programmed bots, regurgitating scripted lines, like non-player characters in video games. It's not a new idea, as this kind of elitist solipsism has long been common among what we now call "neckbeards," but it's been updated for the 21st century. It's similar to the "wake up, sheeple" cliche from conspiracy theorists of years past. NPCs, in this cosmology, are those that haven't taken the "red pill." It's the product of a mind buried deep in ressentiment.

    6. Re:bigger word than "lie" by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Seriously, the 1st would make it harder to censor since town or city owned community broadband would be subject the 1st; unlike privately owned broadband.

      Hmmm. Is there an existing parallel? Why yes, there is. PEG channels (public, education, government) are carried on the local cable TV but run by the government. And yet, those channels have standards for what can appear there. I would like to see someone try to get a half hour program that contains nothing but people saying the word "fuck" onto the government-run public access channel. I'm pretty sure that if a high school student tried the same thing on one of the education channels they'd find themselves in trouble, too.

      Seems to fall under existing FCC rules and consistent with obscenity not being protected free speech.

      From the FCC:

      Franchising authorities may also require cable operators to set aside channels for educational or governmental use on institutional networks, i.e., channels that are generally available only to institutions such as schools, libraries, or government offices. Franchising authorities may require cable operators to provide services, facilities, or equipment for the use of PEG channels.

      In accordance with applicable franchise agreements, local franchising authorities or cable operators may adopt on their own, non-content-based rules governing the use of PEG channels. For example:

      Rules may be adopted for allocating time among competing applicants on a reasonable basis other than the content of their programming.

      Minimum production standards may be required.

      Users may be required to undergo training.

      Federal law permitted a cable operator to prohibit the use of a PEG channel for programming that contains obscene material, sexually explicit conduct, indecency, nudity, or material soliciting or promoting unlawful conduct. However, the U.S. Supreme Court determined that this law was unconstitutional. Therefore, cable operators may not control the content of programming on public access channels with the exception that the cable operator may refuse to transmit a public access program, or a portion of the program, which the cable operator reasonably believes contains obscenity.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    7. Re:bigger word than "lie" by shplopt · · Score: 1

      I remember watching all kinds of crazy stuff on the local public access channel before it was axed in the late 90s due to budget cuts. Like, real weird stuff. There was this goth chick that would paint with used tampons, and a clown that danced in front of a green screen showing straight up porn. I don't know if that was great stuff for a young me to be watching, but there was no censorship.

    8. Re:bigger word than "lie" by dryeo · · Score: 1

      A better parallel would be a municipal run phone service. Do they get censored down there?
      You do have a lot of government censorship on the public airwaves. Heard a DJ ranting here on the CBC as he was interviewing a band called the Fuckheads or such and the problems that the fact that his program would be broadcast on NPR caused, namely having to self-censor. Seems your Federal government actively bans certain types of speech and other types of freedom of expression on the public airwaves. It was quite amazing the reaction to Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, especially the fact that citizens complained so much. I've seen almost everything (anal is about the only exception) on the local PEG channel, including real intercourse and closeups of a woman getting made up for a porn magazine, namely the "pussy juice" being applied. This was in the evening.
      As for the above DJ, he also mentioned that there had never been one complaint about language from a Canadian. Whereas down there, there is a large portion of the population that would freak out if someone said fuck on TV when a kid might hear it.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    9. Re:bigger word than "lie" by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      NPC script stuck in a loop again. Someone reboot.

      How do you know it's stuck in a loop? I mean it may well be, but unless it stops being on point how will we know?

    10. Re:bigger word than "lie" by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Orange Man racist. Orange Man bad.

      NPC script stuck in a loop again. Someone reboot.

      It's nice when you use the term NCP. It makes it so easy to identify the trolls.

    11. Re:bigger word than "lie" by jriding · · Score: 1

      Actually this is the legal way.
      They are not sneaking through the boarder. They are following the process, the LEGAL process.
      They arrive at the boarder and request asylum based on their personal hardship. How is this scary and illegal? This is one of the legal ways to try to be allowed into this country.

      --
      love the taste, hate the texture
    12. Re:bigger word than "lie" by Kyr+Arvin · · Score: 1

      It's the idea that people who don't share a particular narrow worldview are programmed bots, regurgitating scripted lines, like non-player characters in video games.

      It is also a nice way to dehumanize people who have a different opinion from you, something that is critical if you aren't necessarily interested in a debate and weighing the pros and cons of your position and theirs, but instead want a one-dimensional 'enemy' to fight.

  4. Headline is just as bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "insinuated, without evidence" does not mean it is false. It may be false. It may also be true. We won't know until it plays out.

    1. Re:Headline is just as bad by BeckyLookAtHerButt! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Chattanooga, TN for one turned up their municipal fiber ISP service in 2010. It's customer satisfaction usually ranks as the best among ISPs; No reports of wanton censorship. I am thinking we know how it plays out. We have evidence that those serviced love (...not like) their municipal ISP service. Why try to legitimize these unfounded, dishonest, scare tactics from the telecoms?

      One other thing, since the First Amendment actually only protects us from government censorship, wouldn't it actually be better from a legal standpoint to get our ISP service from municipal organizations and that way if there was a claim of censorship we'd actually potentially have standing under the 1st amendment? Could be wrong but my understanding is corporations can censor you all they want since they are technically not the government (....or are they? LOL....[insert nervous laugh])

      These same corporate telecoms just fought like hell to squash the FCC net neutrality rule which was designed to prohibit playing favorites with data packets. Now they want us to believe they are looking out for free, unfettered speech? Yah...right.

    2. Re: Headline is just as bad by jd · · Score: 1

      Can you find evidence of wanton censorship when the NSF ran the entire U.S. side of the Internet?

      Can you find any evidence of the alleged censorship in Chattanooga, TN?

      If no, there's your proof, plus proof of deliberate falsehood by the FCC.

      The big bad wolf has a vested interest in straw arguments.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    3. Re:Headline is just as bad by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      And whoever gets voted into office is subject to the provisions of the US Constitution as interpreted by the courts.

  5. maybe need a new Amendment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    to codify the Corporate Access to Profits, since they obviously do not want any governmental body providing a service that the corporations could glean a profit from.

    Of course, they just have to eliminate any potential competitor so that they can charge us whatever they want.

    Isn't that what the Founding Fathers wanted? Just ask kavanaugh

  6. and Comcast making executive deal with HOA's by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    and Comcast making executive deal with HOA's with no network neutrality is ok as well?

  7. We all know the greatest threat by bobstreo · · Score: 1

    to the first amendment; the FCC.

    The greatest threat to the FCC is if lobbyists can't continue to control legislation with their generous "campaign contributions"

    More evidence of malfeasance by the FCC would include the suppression of public comments on net neutrality.

  8. Translation: Threatens our big telco lobbyists by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

    I have one choice of wired broadband provider in my central FL neighborhood - Spectrum. It's overpriced, slow, has frequent outages, and they constantly send me junk mail for their overpriced pay TV services (which I have no interest in ever subscribing). I'd gladly switch to government-run broadband if it was a better value for my hard earned, rapidly inflating dollar.

    The big telcos don't want their monopoly threatened, so they're spreading FUD. Hell, where I live it's all Republican-controlled anyway - they're certainly not going to ban anyone from ranting endlessly online about how much they love their guns and Trump.

    --

    ---
    DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
  9. They just want to fuck us. by DewDude · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So........ municipal broadband threatens free speech? We have a thing to prevent that kind of thing.......

    THE FIRST ADMENDMENT!!!!!!!!!!

    What kind of fucking morons do these ass clowns think we are? Is that the intelligence level they expect to deal with?

    1. Re:They just want to fuck us. by Calydor · · Score: 1

      And at the same time we keep being told that private companies (eg. game companies and their forums for their games) aren't affected by the first amendment, and they can censor anything they want because it's on their property.

      But it's the STATE owned internet connection that is a threat to free speech, not the company owned one ... Huh.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    2. Re:They just want to fuck us. by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      Is that the intelligence level they expect to deal with?

      Yep. It gets eaten up like candy by the same people who believe if a Democrat gets into office, the #2nd amendment will magically disappear.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    3. Re:They just want to fuck us. by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      While I wouldn't put it that way, it's an interesting point...

      Currently, you have various people complaining about "free speech" issues on the Internet. The argument is that I shouldn't have my Twitter account shut down because of something I said might have offended somebody. Of course, corporations don't have to adhere to "free speech" principles and I would imagine it's the same with ISPs. If I said something horrible, my cable provider could decide that they don't want to sell me Internet access. And they'd be perfectly within their rights.

      Only the government has that rule that says that they'll make no law infringing on my right to free speech. So if you're concerned about free speech, you should totally be for municipal broadband because only the government has rules about infringing on your speech.

    4. Re:They just want to fuck us. by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What kind of fucking morons do these ass clowns think we are? Is that the intelligence level they expect to deal with?

      Look at who America elected...

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    5. Re:They just want to fuck us. by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      Perhaps he is drawing parallels with what's happening at public universities regarding free speech.

      Then again Google, FB etc. are not government and they too engage in censorship too.

    6. Re:They just want to fuck us. by OYAHHH · · Score: 1

      But it's the STATE owned internet connection that is a threat to free speech, not the company owned one ... Huh.

      Um if there were two or more STATE owned ones that competed against each other for my $ I would be far more amenable to the idea.

      Only a fool would believe that a sole-source provider is ever going to be adequate over the long term.

      --
      Caution: Contents under pressure
    7. Re:They just want to fuck us. by Calydor · · Score: 1

      How is your sole-source electricity and water doing, or your sole-source school system and road infrastructure?

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    8. Re:They just want to fuck us. by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      Couldn't put it better myself.
      Ask a sample of random people on the street to give input on this exact article and more often than not I'm sure they won't bring up this very important factoid. You'll probably leave the study a little dumbfounded at how gullible people can be.

      The general pop. doesn't care. They have their own lives to take care of and are under the assumption that those in power are trustworthy because it hasn't affected them DIRECTLY enough to care. Especially not matters related to the internet at large. "Does Facebook/Amazon/Netflix still work? Yes? I don't see the problem."

      People suck, but that's just how it is.

      --
      I tend to rant.
  10. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, I can certainly see that local police monitoring could get unconstitutional real fast, just a buddy-buddy arrangement, no need for warrants.

    But as far as First Amendment rights, I'd think we'd be better off with municipal-run broadband, if it were considered a government agency. Then if a city starts blocking "hate groups" or whatever, we'd have constitutional protections we wouldn't have with a private monopoly.

    Personally, I just want people to have a choice of ISPs - that solves almost everything. Make the "last mile" a utility (and just a dumb pipe). Let many ISPs, local and giant, compete for the no-monopoly business from there.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  11. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by shaitand · · Score: 1

    Hardly, Ajit is just a shill for corporations who want to control you to get your money. That's bad enough but government is even worse, government wants to control your actions and behavior, even manipulate you. The people behind that motivation are some combination of power grabbers, corporate puppets, and fanatics who want to impose their own political agenda on others.

    The only ones who can be trusted to decide what you do and share online are the people themselves. Even access to the infrastructure should be limited to repair personnel and require public notice and transparency.

  12. Um... did you miss the entire Iraq War? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    or Iran Contra? This is nothing new. The difference here is that the media isn't calling him on it. To be blunt, they never do when the checks are cashing in the form of multi billion dollar tax cuts and military budgets. But that same media has been trying to get a sound bite out of Bernie and Occassio Cortez where they say they'll raise middle class taxes to pay for healthcare for months now.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Um... did you miss the entire Iraq War? by Gavagai80 · · Score: 2

      Claiming that the media doesn't call out Trump lies (especially relative to Reagan lies) is as absurdly out of touch with reality as Trump's lies are. The problem, or at least part of it, is that people naturally tune it out after they've heard about a thousand previous lies.

      Sometimes a thousand small lies are a great way to sneak the big whoppers past fatigued citizens who might've had more reaction to fact checkers if they hadn't heard it so many times. People who are emotionally or financially invested in the habitual liar have had to practice so much mental gymnastics to accept the small lies that they're perfectly ready to write off all fact checking as an evil conspiracy so that they don't have to expend more effort rationalizing.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    2. Re:Um... did you miss the entire Iraq War? by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      But that same media has been trying to get a sound bite out of Bernie and Occassio Cortez where they say they'll raise middle class taxes to pay for healthcare for months now.

      As opposed to their real plan, which is to pay for it with unicorn poop?

  13. A Fact-off by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Informative

    The main fact-checking sites (FCS) give T the worst scores ever of any major politician. If these sites are significantly flawed, then take say 15 evaluations from each and carefully explain how they are clearly wrong. (Two is not a sufficient sample size.) I welcome your results...

    While I've disagreed with some of their scoring logic, for the most part FCS appear to be reasonably accurate, based on spot-checking scrutiny I've done.

    T, on the other hand, has failed my spot-checking test bigly. T-or-FCS: one or the other is really out of whack. Enlighten me with your careful attention to details in the "fifteen" test. (Actually, both can be out-of-whack, but that still means T is a significant liar. Two wrongs don't make a right.)

    1. Re:A Fact-off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The very act of choosing which claims to check and which claims to ignore is the best way for "fact checking sites" to hide their bias.
      Add in the "well, in certain contexts" qualifications and "misleading" explanations, and you get a recipe for a fact checking website to show anything it wants. Look at some of the instances where a politician has made a 100% accurate claim ("Your company is sending jobs to Mexico") only to see "fact-checkers" rate it false ("False, because the jobs of the people he was speaking to were not going to Mexico, they were going to Canada.").

      I'm sure you've seen the classic example:
      Democrat: The sky is blue. - Snopes: This is correct. Rating: True.
      Republican: The sky is blue. - Snopes: Actually, the sky is black at night, red at dusk and dawn, and grey when cloudy. Rating: False.

    2. Re:A Fact-off by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      The main fact-checking sites (FCS) give T the worst scores ever of any major politician. If these sites are significantly flawed, then take say 15 evaluations from each and carefully explain how they are clearly wrong. (Two is not a sufficient sample size.) I welcome your results...

      While I've disagreed with some of their scoring logic, for the most part FCS appear to be reasonably accurate, based on spot-checking scrutiny I've done.

      T, on the other hand, has failed my spot-checking test bigly. T-or-FCS: one or the other is really out of whack. Enlighten me with your careful attention to details in the "fifteen" test. (Actually, both can be out-of-whack, but that still means T is a significant liar. Two wrongs don't make a right.)

      Then run somebody who will address the concerns that he was addressing.

      If all the respectable people won't get the job done, then the public will eventually choose un-respectable people to do it.

    3. Re:A Fact-off by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      If all the respectable people won't get the job done, then the public will eventually choose un-respectable people to do it.

      So you admit he's a liar, but are tolerating it for the alleged "great acts" he's doing?

      He's actually doing his main goals incorrectly, and they are even backfiring. The "caravan" wouldn't exist or be smaller without him because a large portion of it is protesters protecting refugees. Without protectors, there would be fewer. An his economics policy is reverse Keynesian: we'll have nothing in the tank for a stimulus in the next recession. GOP are the new hippies: Sha la la, live for today...

    4. Re:A Fact-off by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      The very act of choosing which claims to check and which claims to ignore is the best way for "fact checking sites" to hide their bias.

      If even if true, for the sake of argument, the sheer volume of his lies is staggering by itself. If he manages to sneak some truth in between, that's nice, but it's still a lie sandwich with plenty of bologna. The Truth Pickle is rather lonely.

    5. Re: A Fact-off by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      Okay, so you refuse to learn. I guess it's still going to be the un respectable people then.

    6. Re: A Fact-off by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Okay, so you refuse to learn

      I gave you a fairly clear-cut formula for "training" me, and believe it to be a reasonable formula. What else do you want? If you want to persuade people, you have to do some leg work. Otherwise, over-simplistic slogans won't change squat.

  14. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by shaitand · · Score: 1

    Personally, I'd prefer to see the entire thing handed over to a non-profit with a board filled with privacy advocates. And we really need some stronger and more modern personal protections on communications and media in the Constitution. There should not be a risk of compromise because of some perceived national security nonsense or every time a new technology becomes available. We need to explicitly take the power to water down warrants and apply censorship out of the hands of all three branches of national government as well as state and local government. We could do a better job on the commerce clause as well and probably.

  15. Corporations != Free Speech by bjwest · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Really interesting take on what's the real threat to the First Amendment when it's the Government that is bound by it. Corporations are in no way accountable to free speech protections, and this is how we loose them.

    When the corporations own all the conduits of speech, there will be no free speech.

    --

    --- Keep the choice with the user..
    1. Re:Corporations != Free Speech by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      Pardon me, but while that is something for concern, government has a mass murderous track record with respect to freedom of speech.

      Even our own must be dragged kicking and screaming into court over it, over and over again.

      The more government fatfingers things, the more they will try to censor, either directly, or indirectly by delaying regulatory approvals for uppity companies or people.

      Given government's attempts (and successes historically and currently, viz. Tv, Radio, campuses, work environments, some of which you may even agree with) realize we are only one Supreme Court decision away from being able to limit it...as on phones.

      Your savior, historically, is your murderer...of free speech. If corps censor, far more likely they do it hand in hand with some autocrat wannabee.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    2. Re:Corporations != Free Speech by SSonnentag · · Score: 1

      Yes, this! This is what "Trump's FCC" spokesman is saying, proving the government is actually doing some reasonable forward thinking here. How refreshing! :)

    3. Re:Corporations != Free Speech by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Then you're fucked. Simple as that. Because that means obviously you're no longer able to change your government if you find out it sucks donkey balls.

      When again die the US become a dictatorship?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Corporations != Free Speech by ZorroXXX · · Score: 1

      Pardon me, but while that is something for concern, government has a mass murderous track record with respect to freedom of speech.

      Here you are implying that this is something that is exclusive for governments, and that is absolutely not true. There are many examples thought out history of companies with worse track records than governments, for instance British East India Company.

      With governments there is at least some transparency and accountability for its ruling (although seldom enough), which is missing for private companies. When companies becomes as influential and powerful as governments without the corresponding checks and balances that is an extremely serious problem. Secret ruling is seldom good idea.

      --
      When you are sure of something, you probably are wrong (search for "Unskilled and Unaware of It").
  16. Re:2019 Q4 can't get here soon enough by whoever57 · · Score: 1, Troll

    Oh, and I forgot one more group of people (note there is overlap, this isn't an entirely separate group): the people who think that they are "temporarily inconvenienced" millionaires. They think that, at some point in the future, they will be rich and they want to benefit from the tax cuts when that happens.

    For most of these people, their only plan to become rich is to buy lottery tickets.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  17. Its True by Tulsa_Time · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the government provides it, the government can take it away.

    Or filter it as it deems necessary.

    --
    5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
    1. Re:Its True by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You do know what the first amendment says? Yes? Ok. Who does the first amendment apply to? Government or private businesses? Who does it NOT apply to?

      And now please answer who can and who cannot dictate to you what you may say on "their" cables: Private businesses or government?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Its True by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The same left that ruled my country since pretty much the whole time since WW2?

      I wonder what information I am lacking. Judging from various discussions with people all over the world, I usually get the impression that I'm not the one with a limited information.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Its True by Tulsa_Time · · Score: 1

      The problem is that state run media can displace private media.... then you have no choice.

      --
      5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
    4. Re:Its True by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      How should this be possible with the first amendment in place?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Its True by Tulsa_Time · · Score: 1

      The public has unlimited funds.... they can subsidize services that the private sector cannot provide in the short term.

      I am just as concerned about monopoly franchises granted by local governments...

      --
      5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
    6. Re:Its True by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      As long as it's not a government mandated monopoly, you can ALWAYS go ahead and just offer the service yourself.

      And if the problem is that there's only enough of a market for a single provider, I'd rather have a government monopoly where I, along with the rest of my fellow constituents, have a say in what can and cannot be done, let alone the checks that laws and constitution offer that I can not only rely on but also have courts ensure that they be heeded, than a corporate monopoly where all I can actually do is move away because I have ZERO say what they can and cannot do, and also have zero legal recourse against.

      If Comcast decides that it does not transport, say, "hate speech" (and THEY get to define what "hate speech" is) you have exactly NO legal ground to stand on when trying to get them to stop that. They are NOT bound by the first amendment, they are NOT a government entity.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  18. Furthermore, ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  19. kinda by reanjr · · Score: 1

    There's a nugget of truth there. Municipal ISPs can't put in the same kinds of restrictions on behavior that private ISPs can. Government is covered by the first amendment, but private industry is not.

  20. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by sjames · · Score: 1

    If we didn't already know about the very special access the big telecoms offer to police, that might wash. If community broadband precluded private companies from offering their own, even moreso.

    The fact is, the police already have their taps and they get less public scrutiny than a municipal broadband provider would.

  21. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by Enigma2175 · · Score: 2

    Personally, I just want people to have a choice of ISPs - that solves almost everything. Make the "last mile" a utility (and just a dumb pipe). Let many ISPs, local and giant, compete for the no-monopoly business from there.

    That's exactly how my municipal fiber works, the city only owns the network and ISPs (or phone or television providers) can provide service over it. I have never heard of an instance where the city tried to exert any control over the content of the network, they just provide the pipe. The Republicans in the state legislature keep passing laws to try to shut the network down (in the service of their masters, the local cable and telco companies) but so far they haven't been successful. I've been on the network for years and it's always been lightning fast and way less expensive than cable internet. It's easier to be cheaper than cable if you just need to pay off your network instead of having to have the network pay for itself plus make profits every quarter in perpetuity.

    --

    Enigma

  22. I think they might be right by AndyKron · · Score: 1, Interesting

    NoogaNet seems to fit description nicely. 2. There is no guarantee of privacy associated with any User's use of the Service. 3. Your wireless-enabled device used to access the Internet will be logged and associated with your browsing. 7. The City reserves the right to impose time, place or manner restrictions on the viewing of certain materials accessed through the Service. 8. The City may suspend or terminate your use of the Service if it reasonably believes that you are in violation of any provision of this Policy. 9. Persons who use the Service for abusive, malicious or illegal activity are subject to prosecution.

    1. Re:I think they might be right by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Ok, now look at the nearly-identical phrasing in a commercial ISP's contract. And remember that you can't take the commercial ISP to court for first amendment violations.

  23. Re: Regulatory capture intensifies by bursch-X · · Score: 1

    It could be raining.

    --
    There are two rules for success:
    1. Never tell everything you know.
  24. Re:2019 Q4 can't get here soon enough by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Hey man, the lottery is my retirement plan, don't knock it. xD
    ..yeah, the so-called 'tax cuts' are more fucking bullshit. Only benefits the rich. I'm sitting down here in lower-middle-class land, and I haven't seen a dime more in my paychecks.

  25. Seeing as Local Governments put the Cable Co there by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    It's really a twist of logic to see how the governments that created and nurtured the monopolies would do any better than the actual monopolies.

    Would you want the people in your home owners association deciding how your internet works ?

  26. A ghost of a point, but not intentional. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's hyperbole, but it's not completely ungrounded. The internet, as we all know, has a *lot* of porn on it. There are also a lot of people who would like to see porn banned. It gets a lot easier for them to get their way when the government is involved in operating an internet service, for much the same reason that the FCC is able to regulate indecency transmitted on government-allocated radio frequencies. The argument that "we don't want our tax money to pay for other people to watch smut" is going to be a pretty powerful one, and anti-porn activists generally do not consider themselves as violating the first amendment because they do not recognize pornography as a form of speech. Similar concerns can be raised about government being pressured to block copyright infringement.

    But bizarrely, the federal government is currently dominated by a faction which supports banning the porn! There's a weird double standard going on here that shows the writer of this speech does not care at all about everything outlined in the above paragraph. The strongest argument that could be made in relation to the point raised is the possibility of anti-pornography efforts, but the FCC can't even acknowledge that possibility because they are allied to the people who are pushing it. Instead he is using the current bogeyman of liberal censorship of 'threatening' behavior - which every conservative is supposed to fear right now, though any attempt by a municipal provider to do that would likely be smacked down in the courts. It's quite the fear on the right though - you need only skim a few suitably skewed news sites to find them full of stories about how prominent right-wing activists have been 'censored' on social media and punished for their political views. Strangely though, very few of these stories actually repeat the contents of the banned posts, and the victims invariably turn out to be raging homophobes or conspiracy theorists. Usually both.

    I can't even interpret this at near-midnight. It's too deep in political dog-whistles and codephrases. None of it makes any sense, and I don't think it's supposed to. It works because most of the country loves the first amendment in the abstract sense, but is also very eager to disregard it when they have an agenda to advance - usually while accusing everyone else of doing the same.

    If the FCC really cared about preserving freedom of speech on the internet, they'd be doing everything they can to promote the use of universal encryption at every level. But they aren't doing to do that. It would get in the way of things like keeping television free of dirty words and making sure the government can issue warrants worth the effort.

    This posts is bleh and rambling... I shouldn't write these while barely awake. Screw it, too tired to care. Night.

    1. Re:A ghost of a point, but not intentional. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      If a community wants to ban porn, they can just as easily ban private ISPs from allowing it as they can a local community run ISP from allowing it.

      The reality is that it'd be hard for them to do either, but private ISPs can unilaterally decide to censor whatever they want, whereas government own ISPs are beholden to the first amendment.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    2. Re:A ghost of a point, but not intentional. by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      The argument that "we don't want our tax money to pay for other people to watch smut" is going to be a pretty powerful one, and anti-porn activists generally do not consider themselves as violating the first amendment because they do not recognize pornography as a form of speech.

      And that's totally fine. If you wanted to watch it that badly you can go out and PAY for a commercial internet service package and watch as much pron as your heart desires.

      A free, city-run internet connection can be, and should be, used for practical things.

      If the majority of a township don't want to serve up pron on their free fiber, it's only democratic that we disallow it on that network. No free speech impeded.

      --
      I tend to rant.
  27. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  28. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

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  29. THIS is the REAL threat from Trump's ppl by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    So many of you have gripped about net neutrality, which was a fucking joke. The best thing to do was to allow net neutrality to go. After all, the argument went that it was freedom for these companies. Ok.

    Now, I have been arguing that the Sats esp. Starlink, along with utility style broadband, should be allowed and would make a HUGE difference. In fact, with net neutrality gone, these will grow fast.

    However, I was wondering if Trump's ppl would pull their BS. The first one is to go after 'rural broadband' and is trying to come up with solution whereby the same monopolies that pushed to rid net neutrality, now want to have another monopoly in the rural areas, again without net neutrality, but in control of all access.
    Now, they are pushing against utility broadband.

    This is where the REAL fight is at. Net Neutrality was simply a waste of effort.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  30. A large federal government is the problem by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    If our federal government were cut back to the 18 enumerated powers in the constitution the FCC would not have the authority to tell states and municipalities how to build broadband networks.

    Many on this site advocate for a continually expanding federal government and then complain about government agencies sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.

    The federal government should only have the authority to regulate EM spectrum and the states could grant that authority to the federal government with a constitutional amendment.

  31. I see both sides of this by e3m4n · · Score: 1

    As a libertarian, I am always guarded against the government getting more involved in my life. I truly understand the statement of "the scariest phrase you will ever hear is 'We are from the government, we are here to help.' I can definitely see how something like this could lead to abuses, not just first amendment but also fifth amendment.

    At the same time I think that a municipality (not just wireless but also last-mile connectiions to the customer) needs to be an independent, unbiased, 3rd party. Every potential service provider needs to have equal access to the customers. It is important to create a counter to the monopolies created by the 1 cable company and 1 incumbent in your area. This is more of a problem for residential than businesses. As a ISP myself, it's a lot easier to provide service to a business because the cost of entry is not as egregious to a business whereas it is much more so to a residential customer.

    Maybe the solution is to require the municipalities to create the infrastructure of Layer2 but let independent isp's provide the layer3 on top of it, via tunneling, so that they lack the ability to do any sort of censoring, snooping, or data collection.

    1. Re:I see both sides of this by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Maybe the solution is to require the municipalities to create the infrastructure of Layer2 but let independent isp's provide the layer3 on top of it, via tunneling, so that they lack the ability to do any sort of censoring, snooping, or data collection.

      Given that there is documented illegal data collection from private ISPs, and those ISPs are now required by law to continue that data collection on behalf of the government, why on Earth do you think private corporations are any safeguard for your rights?

      Think some privacy-centric ISP would appear? Guess what? They're subject to the same laws as Verizon and will be collecting data on you.

  32. Of all the organizations... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    The FCC, of all the organizations possible, call something a threat to free speech. For real. The FCC. The same organization who made it its business to make broadcasters bleep and bloop every word that could remotely be called a "bad" word.

    The hypocrisy is so far off the chart that I can't even find a suitable parallel anymore to make a snide comment along the lines of "that's like X saying Y".

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Of all the organizations... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Fuck you very much the FCC
      Fuck you very much for fining me
      Five thousand bucks of fuck
      So I'm really out of luck
      That's more than Heidi Fleiss was charging me

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  33. Re:Cripes, people by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    That's exactly the thing, government COULD NOT do this, exactly because of the first amendment. ANY commercial provider can censor and dictate what may or may not be transported through its cables, but a municipal provider COULD NOT.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  34. Re:Sorry, Ajit can't come to /. to post right now. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    We're doing fine without Ashit Pile.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  35. Re: Opposite Land by dryeo · · Score: 1

    That's true. But when the government goes too far and starts subsidizing public transportation by taxing those who drive cars, it's a threat to our freedom to travel independently and under our own control.

    OTOH, it helps your freedom of travel by cutting back on the number of cars on the road, at least if done well.

    --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  36. Re: 2019 Q4 can't get here soon enough by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

    We have seen posters adamantly supporting attacks against free speech on Gab by PayPal, etc.

    Because advocating government intervention in the freedom of companies to decide who they choose to do business with, is the antithesis of conservatism.

    If you can simultaneously believe that insurance companies have the right not to do business with customers with preexisting medical conditions, but PayPal doesn't have the right to tell a controversial nationalist social media site to get lost, that's known as cognitive dissonance. Both sides of the political spectrum have gravitated towards pushing agendas where the ends justifies a hypocritical means, rather than focusing on a consistent ideology.

    --

    ---
    DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
  37. Re:Cripes, people by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    Yes, just like the government cannot restrict your access to guns, cannons, artillery, or any type of weapons of war.

    Expect, not only do they do this, but they are the only one preventing many American citizens from owning guns or any kind, and all american citizens from owning the plethora of weapons of war that they used to be able to buy in the founding fathers time and most of the ones developed afterwards.

    If history has taught us anything, it is that the only major threat to a citizens constitutional rights is the government in all cases.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  38. Re:Cripes, people by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    You are aware that when the 2nd amendment was written, nobody could have foreseen that you want to stash nukes in your basement, yes?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  39. Re:Cripes, people by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

    Are you aware that when the when the 2nd amendment was written you could order machine gun automatic cannons with from catalogs, that shotguns designed to kill crowds of animals over wide areas were common, and that the government placed no restrictions on private ownership of artillery capable of leveling any building, castle or fortification and indeed the ownership of such was fairly common among the merchant classes?

    The geneva convention, and a series of other laws and rulings have made guns of today wimpy and non-lethal compared to what you would buy even in the infancy of gun design.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  40. Re: Experts, says anonymous submitter by jd · · Score: 1

    We already know police, etc, get a room where they can install wiretap in private companies. We've seen on Slashdot eyewitness accounts of such rooms.

    Police get no better access in municipal nets, arguably it may even be less access. Harder to threaten a government with new regulations.

    Further, you can replace a government, you can't replace a corporation. There's no competition and the CEO doesn't answer to the populace.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  41. Re: Opposite Land by jd · · Score: 1

    Why? How?

    Simply stating something as fact doesn't make it so.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  42. Re:2019 Q4 can't get here soon enough by whoever57 · · Score: 1

    I'm sitting here in top 10% land and the tax "cuts" mean that I will pay thousands more in tax.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  43. The first steps toward ... by MxMatrix · · Score: 1

    ... full blown dictatorship and repression of citizens through corporate monopoly is there.

    Calling citizen initiatives against the constitution usually is the start.

    Glad I'm not an USA citizen.

    --
    Bach says it all.
  44. Re:Fact meaning your imagination? by jd · · Score: 1

    Don't blame others for your conduct or your imagination.

    Nothing leftwing about the Soviet Union. You really need to learn a bit about terminology. Socialism is the antithesis of communism.

    The left has deplatformed nobody. The right has. That's why the right is so obsessed with the issue. As long as they can accuse others of their own cruelty and censorship, as long as they can drown out others, they'll be able to impose their Orwellian fantasies.

    I doubt you saw anything over your drinking glass. You were too busy reading The Sun, page 3, to care about freedoms. As long as you voted Tory or whatever other neo-fascist government you had in your country, you were alright. Never mind the suffering, the censorship, the spying, the illegal arrests, the outright executions of dissidents by the state. You had your point of beer.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  45. Re: LinkNYC for the win by riverat1 · · Score: 1

    He probably just wants to whip it out in front of a kiosk and get his rocks off.

  46. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  47. Re:Cripes, people by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    I'm kinda torn. On one hand I'd love to see what it would be like if every redneck goofball could buy a 155mm howitzer, on the other hand I kinda like the US.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  48. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by shaitand · · Score: 1

    In other words, you have no logical refutation of what I said, just some words to put in my mouth drawn from your own bias.

  49. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by shaitand · · Score: 1

    " I have never heard of an instance where the city tried to exert any control over the content of the network, they just provide the pipe."

    It doesn't matter if they are doing it, the question is whether they can. Also, you wouldn't likely know. How often did you see the NSA interference before Snowden leaked it?

  50. Re:LinkNYC for the win by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually, consider an alternative:

    Municipal broadband service might be well described as a 'lifeline'-like service, intended to be lowest cost, minimum necessary, to provide access to government services, universally required services such as job search, bill payment, enrollments, etc. It may not be intended to, nor even provide, access to a variety of services or sources. If this is disclosed, is it a problem?

    Disclosure would be the first step.

    So would LinkNYC be deficient if it did not provide access to pornography? Or games? Or would it be efficient? And if kiosks were relatively public, would pornography be a tolerable use, since it might, possibly, offend some casual observers? Should LinkNYC spend more money on privacy filters and such?

    Of course, when we move on from pron and consider access to news, information, and opinion sources, we get into significantly less obvious use cases. But I, sadly, know people who are just as offended by seeing certain 'news' and opinion sources as they are seeing pron, even by accident, and they plainly tell me that these need to be kept off of municipal broadband systems.

    Not simple, but worthy of discussion.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  51. Re: Experts, says anonymous submitter by shaitand · · Score: 1

    "Police get no better access in municipal nets, arguably it may even be less access. Harder to threaten a government with new regulations."

    Get no better access? They literally just walk up and do what they want without supervision. Who exactly is it you think stands between police and access at the local level other than self-enforcement?

    The police come up with some rationale to explain why they are allowed, choose to believe themselves, and it only gets questioned if they get caught. Even then it could go either way in court and the worst that happens is the court says no.

  52. First amendment? by mysidia · · Score: 1

    Since when has the FCC EVER been concerned about the first amendment?
    It is patently absurd that they decry small community broadband projects as a risk to Free Speech while
    ignoring the inherent risk to free speech that National Broadband Providers pose --- providers who WON'T agree to become
    a common carrier -- providers they can't even impose a regular requirement on to maintain a Neutral (non-free-speech killing) network.

    Providers that are massive and encompass most broadband access nationwide with very little competition, practically zero competition in MANY areas.

    Meanwhile we have yet to ever see a SINGLE one small community broadband implementing even the most superficial sort of censorship without subscriber permission.... Give me an example of a community broadband provider that blocks HTTPS or Youtube or Facebook or a major website or protocol, then maybe i'll change my mind ----- I've seen plenty of LARGE providers blocking random ports or protocols or websites over the years; one of the most recent widespread examples was major ISPs blocking ThePirateBay at the behest of some large media companies.

    If community broadband providers ever had committed censorship, then they could likely be circumvented very easily by people to get their message out --- such as by heading one town over ---- Also, in local communities the people are empowered to change the policies of their community ISP in a meaningful way - this is NOT the case for a large provider such as Verizon or ATT --- should they choose to block Netflix, for example, a very large percent of their users will have no recourse (Due to no local competition), and not even a local town council to complain to --- on the other hand a LOCAL small community provider or small business providing service can be influenced by concerned people in the local community much moreso than some national faceless corporation:
    since COMMUNITY broadband networks are separate and not joined into one national collective with standardized policies, large byzantine customer service systems that keep customers from complaining or reaching actual management, and far-reaching power over users nationwide.

    Furthermore, community broadband is another option on top of others - if there were a free speech issue at home due to community broadband, then you could pull out your cellphone that uses ATT or Verizon.

  53. Re: 2019 Q4 can't get here soon enough by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    You're equating a medical condition to an ideology?

    Insurance companies are in the business of making money. Refusing to cover someone who is likely to cost them buttloads of money is a sound fiscal decision. Paypal is also in the business of making money. Refusing to process payments for an organization whore ideology they detest is not a fiscal decision and it doesn't save them money; it's purely political. Both companies are, of course, free to make those decisions ... but let's not pretend that they're in any way equivalent.

  54. Uhhh... by ewhenn · · Score: 1

    Uhhh... the first amendment protects you from the government limiting free speech. It does not protect you from corporations limiting free speech. If anything a Govt. run ISP would legally have *MORE* 1A protections than a privately run ISP.

  55. Re: Cripes, people by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    Are you aware that when the when the 2nd amendment was written you could order machine gun automatic cannons with from catalogs

    No. The second amendment was adopted in 1791. The first real machine gun wasn't invented until the 1860s. While some earlier weapons were called "machine guns", they were shitty flintlock designs which were only capable of firing about 10 rounds per minute. Any pistol today can far exceed that rate of fire.

    that shotguns designed to kill crowds of animals over wide areas were common

    I couldn't find any source on when punt guns were first developed, but your own source says that they were used "in the 19th and early 20th century". Which, again, was after the second amendment was written.

  56. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

    Why would my city care what I post to the Internet? Just what, exactly, are you alleging they are doing or might do? Most of my traffic is encrypted anyway so even if they did want to censor me they couldn't selectively do it. Of course they COULD, but it would be illegal for them to do it. I worry much more about a private corporation censoring my speech since it's not illegal for them to do it. Like I said, I've been on a municipal network for years and I love it, if something changes that I will hold my elected officials responsible. It's way easier to get access to my mayor than it is to get access to the CEO of Comcast.

    --

    Enigma

  57. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by shaitand · · Score: 1

    "Of course they COULD, but it would be illegal for them to do it."

    Actually it is illegal for the federal government to do it, it is not necessarily illegal for local government to do it especially if using public infrastructure. The government needs no warrant to search your trash or check your water lines. They can act as a man in the middle by connecting not to devices in your home where they need a warrant but to the public owned infrastructure one hop up.

    "Why would my city care what I post to the Internet?"

    Because you pissed off the local politician or cop, because you are stuck in an ultra-religious community forcing "values" laws down your throat like blue laws, decency laws etc, because you keep staging protests in the public square and they are trying to monitor your involvement with the next "occupy wall street." Maybe they just decide it would be more productive for everyone to shut down access between 10am and 2pm for the sake of the community. Local communities aren't exactly known for respecting freedoms and they pass statutes which run counter to protections in the Constitution all the time, many of which courts have upheld.

  58. Re:Experts, says anonymous submitter by shaitand · · Score: 1

    "I worry much more about a private corporation censoring my speech since it's not illegal for them to do it."

    This is a false dichotomy. You don't have to support either being in a position to legally censor your speech.

  59. Re:LinkNYC for the win by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

    Municipal broadband service might be well described as a 'lifeline'-like service, intended to be lowest cost, minimum necessary, to provide access to government services, universally required services such as job search, bill payment, enrollments, etc.

    I actually think this should be part of every single municipality that cares about it's people in the modern world.

    It doesn't need to be fast. There's actually ZERO reason for it to be fast. It just needs to be free so that basic services and information can be accessed by the greater populace. No need for video or nice fancy images. We could allow them, just cap the data transfer rate so a bunch of shmucks can't tie up the network for everyone else. Suspend/ban/limit abusers. None of this takes any R&D.

    If the idea can take off, web developers will be forced to cater to this with more responsive websites and not blindly assume everyone's running on a fucking 20G network.

    --
    I tend to rant.
  60. Re:2019 Q4 can't get here soon enough by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Well see you're only in the top 10%, therefore you're not 'The Rich', you have to be in the top 1%; they're the ones who are making out like bandits. Them and corporations. And probably Trump specifically.

  61. Re: Cripes, people by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    To be sure no guns met the very specific legal "machine gun" category we now have. But for almost a hundred years "machine guns" has been being invented and used by the time the second amendment came out. They did not have great reload speeds, but 100 shots for a little over 10 minutes is not something to complain about, particularly considered the size the the ammunition which I am going to assume would probably have enough momentum to go through about ten people.

    It is true that punt guns were invented about a decade or two after the second amendment passed, but they are hardly the only or first gigantic shotgun designed so that the user would never need a second shot, because everything in sight in a 10 degree arc in front of you is now dead. And we are for sure talking about within the lifetime of at least the majority of the people who signed the amendment into law.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  62. Re: Cripes, people by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    And I loved this quote I found in my research:

    Puckle intended regular musket balls for use against Christians, while for fighting Muslims a different cylinder would be used to fire special cubical bullets, which he perceived as extra deadly.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  63. Re:Fact meaning your imagination? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    uh, USSR was considered PURE left wing. In fact, Communism is simply an extreme form of socialism.
    USSR/China and NAZI Germany were 3 great examples (and china remains one) of what extremism looks like.
    USSR/CHina were/are Communist and they absolutely controlled speech. Likewise, NAZI Germany was a fascist far right wing who also controlled free speech.
    Both of these are considered definitions in Academia of extremists.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  64. Re:Fact meaning your imagination? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    NAZI Germany, like KKK and Neo-Nazis, was/are considered to be far right, and there was a lot more overt hate speech in all 3 of these groups.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  65. Re: 2019 Q4 can't get here soon enough by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

    If you agree in principle that a business has the right to refuse service, the justification for the refusal should be irrelevant. It could be financial, political, or religious - it shouldn't matter, so long as they're not running afoul of existing antitrust/anti-discrimination laws.

    --

    ---
    DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
  66. Re: 2019 Q4 can't get here soon enough by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    I do agree; society apparently does not. Ergo I would like to - at the very least - see some consistency. If businesses aren't allowed to discriminate based on religious grounds then they shouldn't be allowed to discriminate based on any other ideology either.