GM Is Getting Into the Electric Bike Business (techcrunch.com)

General Motors is planning to bring two new electric bikes to the market in 2019; one will be folding and the other will be compact. TechCrunch reports: The bikes will be "smart" and "connected" and somehow inspired by GM's OnStar, the company's subscription-based communications, in-vehicle security and emergency services feature found in cars. Hannah Parish, director of General Motors Urban Mobility Solutions, wouldn't elaborate what that might look like. We'll have to wait until next year. The bikes are also equipped with safety features including rechargeable front and rear LED lights. And the electric propulsion on the bikes were designed by GM engineers who created a proprietary drive system. For now, GM is focused on naming the e-bikes. And it's turning to the public to help. The company launched a brand-naming campaign Friday as part of its broader e-bike announcement. The company launched a website where people can suggest names for the e-bikes and have the chance to win up to $10,000.

Comments

And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike?

[Joe_Dragon]

And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike? even more so if they want to pay year round even in areas where you can't ride year round?

Re:And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike?

[Cederic]

Municipal authorities.
Employers with large campuses.
People living in high crime areas.

Electric bikes can cost more than a car but you can't tucj a car under your arm and walk off with it. I can understand people seeking to protect their investment.

A lease system feels a more appropriate model but I'm not GM.

Re:And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike?

[bagofbeans]

"GM's OnStar, the company's subscription-based communications, in-vehicle security and emergency services feature found in cars."

It's also a tracking system, so the "you are the product" deal works too.

Re:And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike?

[Attila Dimedici]

Oh, you won't need to subscribe to get the important features, like GM being able to track your location and other data mining functionality.

Re:And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike?

[mspohr]

I had the same thing happen. I took the loan (and got a better deal on the car) then paid it off the next month with cash.

Re:And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike?

[rtb61]

Bicycles however are the stupid choice, they should be tricycles, to vastly improve stability, ease of use and carrying capability ie safe transport of adult and child for example. Bicycles are a dumb choice and only have limited capability, that third wheel, is not a relationship third wheel but the other side of the triangle in providing stable support for passengers and greater cargo, even all weather capability (the two wheels in from to more readily support cargo and ensure the parent can monitor the child).

For security reasons, you should be able to remove the power pack and leave the bike locked, steering and wheels. The big bucks would be in the power pack, battery, motor and gears, it hugely reduces theft value, except of course back in the office and the theft of the charging power pack and control gear but it could be locked to your phone and to be used require unlocking by your phone. GM ain't that smart as for typical big corps always playing ketchup, old dried up sauce.

Re:And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike?

[froggyjojodaddy]

It warms my heart to hear stories like this. I too recently bought a used car and wanted to pay all cash. I had done my research and knew the dealerships value finance deals over cash any day because they make some off the back-end, especially if they add a couple of percentage points to the interest rate for themselves.

During negotiations, I had asked for two prices, one just cash and the other with financing. The final-price with the financing was $3k cheaper than all cash. So I reviewed the finance agreement and made sure it was open-ended with no penalty for early payment.

As soon as I got home with the car, I logged into my online banking, set up a bill payment for the finance amount and paid it off. I should add, the dealer implored me to wait at least 5 months before paying it off so they wouldn't get hit with a 'charge back' from the finance company. I said "OK" but had no intention to wait

Under any other circumstance and any other industry, I likely wouldn't have been so ruthless but car dealerships are so bloody scummy that I have zero empathy for them.

Re:And who is going to pay OnStar fees on a bike?

[drinkypoo]

Bicycles however are the stupid choice, they should be tricycles,

Tricycles are garbage, and here's why. They take up a lot more space than a bicycle on the road and in storage. They don't go up and down curbs as easily as a bicycle. They are wide. They are actually less stable because you can't lean them over in a turn, you lean and they don't. The rear wheels don't track behind the front wheels, so avoiding road junk and potholes is harder. They don't cope at all well with singletrack, even if they fit they'll be forever pitching one way and then the other. Same for rutted roads.

Mind, for the elderly or infirm they may be better than a bicycle, but most of those people won't want to ride anything like a bicycle. They want a sit-down seat. We already have mobility scooters for those people.

I propose TriStar as name

[nospam007]

Since you have to load the main-battery, the front- and the back-light battery, OneStar wouldn't be right.

Hardcore innovators

[JaredOfEuropa]

safety features including rechargeable front and rear LED lights

Wow, what will they think of next? By the way, on an e-bike I'd expect integrated lights rather than rechargeable ones, powered by the propulsion battery.

Re:Hardcore innovators

[TurboStar]

I'd expect integrated lights rather than rechargeable ones, powered by the propulsion battery.

I rented an ebike and bumped into the rear light with a bag causing it to pop open and release a couple of AA cells on to the road. Expect the headlight to be wired but with a round beam that blinds oncoming traffic and blinks so nobody can judge your speed and a rear light that may not be wired. At least in the USA where GM is headquartered.

Re:Hardcore innovators

[zugmeister]

blinking lights do NOT increase your visibility, but reduce it.

This must be why police cars and auto hazard lights and road sawhorse lights are all steady, right?
It may be harder to judge the speed of an oncoming strobe, but I'd say there's a pretty good case it grabs attention.
I haven't even been hit once with my blinky headlight going! ;-)

Re:Hardcore innovators

[angel'o'sphere]

An eBike is a bike that you can use like an ordinary bike when the main battery is empty.
So: how does your front and rear light work now?

GM is asking for help with names for their ebike

[DanDD]

For now, GM is focused on naming the e-bikes. And it's turning to the public to help. The company launched a brand-naming campaign Friday as part of its broader e-bike announcement.

I suggest they call it the General Motors EV-2.

Stick with cars

[DogDude]

Call me crazy, but shouldn't they be working a bit harder on electric *cars*, maybe?

Re:Stick with cars

[DogDude]

I know they're doing a few electric cars here and there. They're not particular serious about it, as far as I can tell. 25% by 2030 is much too slow, in my opinion. They need to get on it.

Re:Stick with cars

[Rei]

GM’s National EV Proposal Hides Call To Roll Back Vehicle Efficiency

Re:Stick with cars

[thegarbz]

You're crazy. And yes they should. But that isn't at all relevant. Making a car and making an e-bike are many orders of magnitude different in difficulty and in required resourcing.

Re:Stick with cars

[sfcat]

I know they're doing a few electric cars here and there. They're not particular serious about it, as far as I can tell. 25% by 2030 is much too slow, in my opinion. They need to get on it.

The problem with your opinion is that it isn't realistic.

As GM is in the business of making money, and not losing it, they have to be realistic.

If GM announced tomorrow that all of their vehicles would be electric going forward, they would next be announcing that they are going out of business due to lack of sales.

Electric cars are cool and all, but for most people they are not an option.

You are right, its not realistic that GM will a major part of an EV market with 25% of the US market. But that's not because the EV market isn't growing or there isn't pent-up demand for EV. Its because GM is a traditional car company and has a cultural aversion to EVs that prevent them from making a good faith attempt at making a marketable EV they make a profit on. I'm on my second Volt and its a nice car but GM loses $9,000 on each one they sell and its unlikely that they have the bandwidth to scale up production on the Volt or Bolt to the point where they make a profit. Why? Because they don't make their own batteries and can't get them cheaply enough (or enough of them) on the open market. This is because GM has no real expertise in making batteries and has failed to build up such a skill set in its workforce.

I expect this is yet another half-hearted attempt by GM to dip their toe into EVs in a way that gives them some return so they can learn how to manufacture their own EV batteries. But its a few years late and about $5b short of what they need to be doing to have a long term future when and if EVs achieve mass market sales.

Re:Stick with cars

[mspohr]

I know they're doing a few electric cars here and there. They're not particular serious about it, as far as I can tell. 25% by 2030 is much too slow, in my opinion. They need to get on it.

The problem with your opinion is that it isn't realistic.

As GM is in the business of making money, and not losing it, they have to be realistic.

If GM announced tomorrow that all of their vehicles would be electric going forward, they would next be announcing that they are going out of business due to lack of sales.

Electric cars are cool and all, but for most people they are not an option.

GM probably can't make a profit on EVs but Tesla sure is... and is selling every car they make and ramping up production. Tesla seems to have figured out how to make EVs at a profit and people are standing in line to buy them.
GM will go out of business if they can't make EVs at a profit or will go out of business if they don't make EVs... either way, looks like they are going out of business.

Re:Stick with cars

[froggyjojodaddy]

It's not just GM. Here's how you know a manufacturer ISN'T serious about EVs:

1. The vast majority of their dealerships don't have charging stations
2. The ones that do, are placed as an afterthought rather than an integral part of the sales or post-sales experience
3. They have a 'special' salesperson who is the only one who appears to know anything about EVs
4. They are losing money on every EV sold. If a major manufacturer cannot figure out the logistics to sell an EV at a profit, they're not taking it seriously
5. Their EV's are regular vehicle models with an EV drivetrain jammed into an existing platform

There's probably a bunch more. Traditional car makers forget they are car manufacturers. Not petrol car manufacturers. The source of propulsion should be secondary.

Trunk Monkey

[goombah99]

Perhaps GM is thinking of putting scooters into cars. Have a scooter charging station and a compartment you can access easily without shifting all the junk. But then the problem comes if someone steals your personal scooter. So now you have On-star to keep track of it?

Bikey McBikeyface

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven’t we learned anything, yet?

Re:Bikey McBikeyface

[zugmeister]

I would proudly ride a bicycle emblazoned with that name on the top bar.

Re:Bikey McBikeyface

[Anonymous Coward]

If they're lucky.

'Hitler did nothing wrong' is also an option.

GM and "connected"?

[fred911]

How about Rbike. You buy it and pay us for the right to use it (or anything)!

Re:GM is asking for help with names for their ebik

[PolygamousRanchKid]

I suggest they call it the General Motors EV-2.

No, that might lead to confusion with the Lego EV3.

You can flash the EV3 with Linux and program it with Python . . . I wonder if General Motors will allow this also on their bike . . . ?

Not for me

[AndyKron]

I don't want a bike that is smart or connected. Pass

Fleet management

[DrYak]

It's also a tracking system, so the "you are the product" deal works too.

Also, GPS tracking is a requirement for free floating vehicle-sharing system (think things like li.me ), which are potential clients of e-bikes.

OnStar

[Guppy]

Actually looking forward to this. There are a ton of different inexpensive e-bikes available in Asia, but the price and selection around here is not as good (presumably because they are a low-volume specialty item). Then again, this bike probably won't change that part.

Also surprised to hear about the OnStar. Usually don't like subscription services, but would be nice if it has automatic accident reporting (if working correctly).

Re:OnStar

[ColdWetDog]

It has automatic accident reporting. And automatic tracking of every place you stop and for how long. And automatic tracking of everywhere you go. And how fast you go. And how fast you stop.

And you even pay for it!

What's not to like?

Re:OnStar

[b0s0z0ku]

I don't want automatic accident reporting unless it has something like a 2 minute delay where I can tell it NOT to call anyone. If nothing is damaged other than your own vehicle, why risk a ticket, police contact, and fine by reporting a damn thing?

Re:OnStar

[angel'o'sphere]

In which country do you live that you fear a fine for an accident, or a fine for reporting or fear police contact?
Let me guess, US? And you are black? I get it ...

Re:OnStar

[AvitarX]

What country do you live in where a single car accident isn't an almost certain ticket?

Re:OnStar

[angel'o'sphere]

Germany.

For what funk sake reason would an accident cause a ticket?

Re:OnStar

[b0s0z0ku]

It also has to do with interaction with police. Most American cops are power-hungry filth -- put it this way, if I saw a cop get hit by a drunk driver in the US, I'd see if the drunk was OK first. Most of a chance of them being a decent human being than a cop.

mopeds?

[smithcl8]

Really? What is their leadership team thinking? Even if they take off, the revenue from a $2000 bike is dwarfed by that on an SUV, and there are already established players in the market.

The almost right bike

[WindBourne]

Skip the chain. Simply have the pedals turn an alternator to charge the battery, which runs the motor. Then use the motor for braking (i.e. regen).

Re:The almost right bike

[hey!]

What you are proposing is a series hybrid; this is useful in situation where driving the wheels with your engine requires a complex, heavy, and usually inefficient transmission.

Bicycle transmissions are extremely light weight and efficient -- efficiencies of over 95% are achievable in a properly maintained bike. So while series hybrid arrangement makes sense for a diesel electric locomotive, parallel hybrid makes sense for an ebike. It doesn't make sense to add stuff in series with a powertrain that is already as efficient as anything could be.

Bikes are almost unique in the mechanical world: they operate at extremely low powers and speeds. An elite cyclist over a long race stage might produce an average of 300 watts. To put that in perspective moderate walking takes about 60 watts. It doesn't take a very large motor or battery to close the gap between an average cyclist and an extremely fit cyclist. So the usual arrangement on the ebike world is to use pedal sensors to control a motor of 500-750 watts in parallel with your own power output.

Riding a series hybrid ebike would be riding an ergonomically awkward electric motorcycle. Riding a parallel hybrid ebike is very much like riding an ordinary bicycle would be, if you had superhuman legs and lungs.

Re:The almost right bike

[zugmeister]

And presto! Here's your 60 lb electric bicycle. Once you account for the energy lost from your pedaling to the generator, stored in the battery then run through the motor, I'd be surprised if your really heavy bicycle gave you a return of 50% of what you put into it. Contrast that with a decent standard bicycle drivetrain (94-97% efficient) and you have why that would be a problem.
Now if you have a dynamo hub to charge capacitors powering lighting, speakers, phone etc. I bet that could have some legs to it... Regenerative breaking is awesome in a car BTW. I was driving my friends Nissan Leaf all over town one morning while he was trying to drink coffee. It was most amusing (for me).

Re:The almost right bike

[Anonymous Coward]

In the cycling world, a popular metric that people measure is their power output, ie watts. The serious amateur athletes and professionals have use either a crank-based (strain guage) power measuring device, or a similar system mounted inside the hub of special wheels. it's measured as some small time average of Torque x d theta /dt.

Re:The almost right bike

[ShoulderOfOrion]

Nothing wrong with a nuclear-powered bike. I'd buy one. I power my current chain-driven one with banana carbs; why not use the rest of the fruit?

Re:The almost right bike

[K. S. Kyosuke]

"Watts make no sense"? How? They make perfect sense for someone's average energy output over a unit of time, which sort of happens with physical activities.

Re:The almost right bike

[drinkypoo]

Bicycle transmissions are extremely light weight and efficient -- efficiencies of over 95% are achievable in a properly maintained bike.

Yes, it's because of the nature of a chain. Only the loaded link has any appreciable friction. Chains are kind of magical for the jobs they are suited to, which generally occur at relatively low RPMs. Recently I saw a YouTube video of an alternative bicycle drivetrain which the creators claimed was more efficient than a chain, but I don't even slightly believe it because their design had multiple ball bearings under full load instead of just one chain link.

To me, though, the real appeal of a bicycle with a series hybrid powertrain is the elimination of the derailleur system. That's just a lot of literally low-hanging crap that often gets scraped off of cycles used in rugged environments — I've done it myself a couple of times, and I'm not an especially avid cyclist. If you've got a battery in there, you can also use it for torque fill when going through the lumpy bumpies. I'd gladly pay the efficiency penalty, given that the difference is made up from the wall socket.

Re:The almost right bike

[drinkypoo]

Once you account for the energy lost from your pedaling to the generator, stored in the battery then run through the motor, I'd be surprised if your really heavy bicycle gave you a return of 50% of what you put into it.

You don't run it through the battery, you deliver the energy directly to the motor, like you do in a train. But since it's electric you can use a relatively small battery for regen, and return the power for fill-in, hill assist, etc.

A real problem is what you said at the top of your comment, i.e. weight. A chain drive weighs roughly nothing compared to two electric motors and a battery. But the biggest problem is cost. Chain parts are stamped out basically for free by modern standards. Sprockets, likewise. Reliable and efficient electric motors are still expensive.

I prefer the Google Bike

[I75BJC]

The Google Bike video....More for Less https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:I prefer the Google Bike

[sysrammer]

Nice. To show my appreciation I present you an ascii bike: o^-\o

(i didn't say it would be a *good* ascii bike)

Tesla's Bike

[wolfheart111]

Mr Musk is thinking about doing one as well. That should be fun :)

Even if they're successful...

[Radical Moderate]

I can't see this putting a dent in the bottom line of a company as huge as GM, the ebike market just isn't that big. Not that I'm not glad they're doing it, GM has some phenomenal talent and deep pockets, so they could really push the envelope for ebike performance.

Re:Even if they're successful...

[adfraggs]

I think it fits into a "smart city" niche which is the next big thing in a lot of places around the world. In densely populated areas, and with green transport being high on the list of priorities, we might find a lot of future city planning being willing to put money into community shared electric bikes. If governments want to invest in bike sharing for city areas then the volumes can get pretty big. Establish yourself as the main player in that line of business and you could soon have 100s of local city councils around the world putting in orders. So it's not a big market now but the potential is there.

Re:GM is asking for help with names for their ebik

[DanDD]

Once again, sarcasm has failed me.

My intent was a slap in the face insult to GM based on their history with electric vehicles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

GM dealerships downgraded to ebikes!

[urbieta]

amazons ebikes range from 389 up to 2169! will they accept tradei-ns?

regeneration does not work well for bikes

[ffkom]

This has been tried already, even commercially, but the advantages of having the motor not as part of the moving mass of the front or rear wheel massively outweigh the advantage of being able to regain some energy when breaking.

bike names

[cas2000]

"Spybike" and "Everdebt".

Re:bike names

[AntisocialNetworker]

Bikey Mc BikeFace, surely

Re:bike names

[sysrammer]

Absolutely, and don't call me Shirley.

OnStar Infrastructure is already there

[adfraggs]

Technically speaking it wouldn't be difficult to track electric bikes, give them some kind of wireless connectivity and thus make them "connected" but you need something behind that to make it actually useful. There aren't a lot of companies out there that can immediately tap into a network like OnStar with all it's existing technology and support base. This is something GM can just add on to what they already do, and so it actually makes a lot of sense. They can release a connected bike with some of the features of their connected cars without needing to make a massive investment. GM can hook their beta up with live OnStar agents so it's fully functional from day one. Think about how hard that would be for a start-up, to have some kind of reliable service on the other end that could interact with a small customer base during a trial period. Maybe there isn't a market for what it can do, but if there is and they get the service component right then this could be an instant success.

Buying

[JBMcB]

That's weird. Last time I bought a car with a bank loan. Walked into the dealership with the loan papers, said "I want that one," they knocked out the paperwork and I walked out in twenty minutes. This was a Chevy dealership.

Because they did so good with the EV1

[Tora]

The first modern electric car was the EV1, made by GM, and they self-destructed the program because it got more interest than they were expecting. The token gesture of "hey, we can be green, not just petrol" started to backfire, and they went into a spiral of denial and self-delusion. Wonder how well it'll work out for bikes.

Re:Because they did so good with the EV1

[RespekMyAthorati]

The first modern electric car was the EV1, made by GM, and they self-destructed the program because it got more interest than they were expecting

No, it was pulled because it ran on heavy lead-acid batteries, and could barely go up a hill.
The ecar movement was impossible before LiOn batteries were available.

Re:GM is asking for help with names for their ebik

[Hasaf]

The EV-3 is already running Linux, just observe the boot sequence. Yes, it is a very specialized Linux build, but it is still Linux.

I am a Robotics teacher at a Middle School where we use the EV-3s'. I also coach an FLL Robotics team , which also uses the EV-3 family.

It's obvious what the name will be

[neo-mkrey]

Bikey McBikeface

Re:It's obvious what the name will be

[HideyoshiJP]

I can almost guarantee this will win the popular vote.

Re:It's obvious what the name will be

[sysrammer]

I can almost guarantee this will win the popular vote.

And be defeated in the Electoral College.

Well...

[longbot]

I hope they're more reliable than GM's cars.