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Can the US Stop China From Controlling the Next Internet Age? (nytimes.com)
Tech executives worry China will turn to tit-for-tat arrests of Americans in response to the detention of Meng Wanzhou. And the worries don't stop there. Kara Swisher, writing at The New York Times: Imagine, if you will (and you should), a big American tech executive being detained over unspecified charges while on a trip to Beijing. That is exactly what a number of Silicon Valley executives told me they are concerned about after the arrest this week of Meng Wanzhou, the chief financial officer of the Chinese telecom company Huawei, in Canada at the behest of United States officials. "It's worrisome, because it's an escalation we did not need," one executive said, referring to the already tense trade talks between the two countries. "What China will do, given all the existing tensions, is anyone's guess."
No one I spoke to would talk on the record, out of fear of antagonizing either side and also because no one knows exactly what is happening. But many expressed worry about the possibility of tit-for-tat arrests. While everyone focuses on the drama of the arrest -- Ms. Meng was grabbed while changing planes at the airport -- and its effect on the trade talks and stock prices, to my mind there is a much more important fight brewing, and it is about tech hegemony. Specifically, who will control the next internet age, and by whose rules will it be run?
Until recently, that answer was clearly the United States, from which the Internet sprang, wiring the world together and, in the process, resulting in the greatest creation of power and wealth in history. While China has always had a strong technology sector, in recent years it has significantly escalated its investment, expertise and innovation, with major support from the government. That hand-in-glove relationship creates obvious issues, and the Trump administration is right to stop pretending that China does not present a threat both from security and innovation perspectives. Further reading: China summons U.S. ambassador, warns Canada of 'grave consequences' if Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou is not released.
No one I spoke to would talk on the record, out of fear of antagonizing either side and also because no one knows exactly what is happening. But many expressed worry about the possibility of tit-for-tat arrests. While everyone focuses on the drama of the arrest -- Ms. Meng was grabbed while changing planes at the airport -- and its effect on the trade talks and stock prices, to my mind there is a much more important fight brewing, and it is about tech hegemony. Specifically, who will control the next internet age, and by whose rules will it be run?
Until recently, that answer was clearly the United States, from which the Internet sprang, wiring the world together and, in the process, resulting in the greatest creation of power and wealth in history. While China has always had a strong technology sector, in recent years it has significantly escalated its investment, expertise and innovation, with major support from the government. That hand-in-glove relationship creates obvious issues, and the Trump administration is right to stop pretending that China does not present a threat both from security and innovation perspectives. Further reading: China summons U.S. ambassador, warns Canada of 'grave consequences' if Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou is not released.
No one else uses China’s internet except China. As long as there is a great firewall, and it’s attendant lack of trust, China’s Internet will remain a separate entity from the world at large.
controlling the Internet, which is global.
We really, really need to make a geography-free distributed encrypted storage layer (e.g. IPFS) much more of a reality, so that no country is in control. Preferably with TOR-like obfuscated routing also.
The Internet should become a platform on which we can build global society, economy, and democracy.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
We can but hope. I, too, am wondering how long over a billion people will put up with this 'god-emperor' bullshit their current 'leader' is pulling. Also, while I can't say things are all Hearts and Flowers and good-times-for-all here in the West, and despite Chinas' best efforts, the Chinese people know damned well what life is like outside of China, and without a doubt many of them would rather have our lifestyle and our problems than continue living the way they are under the thumb of the Communist Party. Never know, the Horse May Learn to Sing yet.
"Free speech" doesn't actually protect hate speech when it crosses the line into that. It's incitement to violence, a crime. The issue is one of enforcement, which will come in time. Nazis are a dying cult of morons.
Good thing Google is helping them with Dragonfly. Google is upset that there are leakers spilling beans about all these wonderful things they do in China.
Go Google! Go China!
if you're asking this question. The ruling class has long since gone global. The US, at least as far as our ruling class goes, won't be trying to stop anything. They'll be working closely with China's ruling class since their interests (keeping the working class in line) align.
The real question is, will the working class stop letting the ruling class take control of the Internet. If the death of Net Neutrality is anything to go by the answer is 'no'. America's got an Election in two years, so we'll see then. I think if we reelect Trump (who's party is pretty obviously in favor of a corporate takeover of the Internet as a public commons) we'll be pretty much shot to hell.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
What makes you think they 'switched to capitalism'?
Ensuring private property rights and allowing capitalists to join the party were huge milestones in the switch to capitalism. The only vestiges of Communism now in China are the name, and publicly placed guards in museums, who often look very bored.
They hate the West and all it stands for just like they always have, and want to destroy us and everything we're about, make the Earth one big Communist state full of good little obedient Communist automatons that don't question the Party, don't complain about anything,
What are you even talking about here? Your comments are informed by ignorance. Not only Rare communism/capitalism economic systems and not a government systems, but the best way to understand the Chinese government these days is to think of it as an extension of the old Imperial system. Of course, if you don't know what the imperial system was like, that won't help you.
make a better life for their one State-allowed child.
Showing your ignorance again. The one-child policy ended years ago.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
China as we know it is not going to be around a decade from now.
From my perspective, China seems more stable than it was 20 years ago. Certainly much more stable than in the 80s.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
China is a bad actor on the world stage. The US is a slightly, imperceptibly better actor in terms of advocating for freedoms around the world. This is a well-measured fact.
If the US disappears over 1 million of its inhabitants for being of a certain ethnicity or religion alone, and no other offense, then we can talk about parity.
Get the fuck out of here with your dogeater equivocations, fuck you Chinoids.
Wow, you've really swallowed the China-supplied Kool-Aid in one gulp haven't you? Or are you ignoring everything else in the news about China?
..or are you a China shill? Paid? Foreign national operative perhaps, astroturfing China to the West? Not as crazy as it sounds. Bugger off, I know better.
Virtual +1 informative Also, a link to Wikipedia would have helped: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
If you are that worried about being arrested on made-up charges when you visit a country, how about DON'T VISIT THAT COUNTRY. If you are worried that said country will make it hard to do business there or persecute your employees if executives stop paying so much attention to it, how about DON'T DO BUSINESS IN THAT COUNTRY.
Sometimes the better business decision is to turn down a prospect.
Wow, you've really swallowed the China-supplied Kool-Aid in one gulp haven't you? Or are you ignoring everything else in the news about China? ..or are you a China shill? Paid? Foreign national operative perhaps, astroturfing China to the West? Not as crazy as it sounds.
I want to point out that you are incapable of responding to a single factual point in my comment, so you resorted to insults. Good job.
I know better.
Clearly you don't.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I think it had that gerbil guy it it. Richard Gere. He was an American business man in China but he was arrested for something (NOT sticking a gerbil up his ass).
But this is all hypothetical. What's happening in Japan to Carlos Ghosn is much worse.
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Why should any country control the Internet? Because it can. And China will be able to, because its economic clout will soon exceed that of the US. Inevitably, that means its military power will catch up. And at present, US soft power is in the crapper.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Well, no, double bullshit on you. I didn't say "the US is clean" at all, you're illiterate and in denial. The fact is China has 1-party rule, and no free and fair elections. They can't even compare their President with Pooh, it's illegal.
The US support of Saudi war in Yemen is obviously a massive mistake, as were several wars, coups, CIA operations, other things... I don't deny any of that happened.
I'm saying even with all that, China is provably worse. This is true locally there, and even on the ocean where China attempts to stop freedom of navigation which is international law.
China is a pariah state hold-over from Communist Authoritarianism. Anyone who pretends otherwise is a willful moron, and it doesn't even matter where you're saying it from.
Once again, nobody said the US was entirely clean. You're just a propagandist liar.
The 80's were went China was recovering from that serial fuckup Mao. Now it looks like the current god-king is going down that same road.
Well, that's one solution: convince corporations to act as if liberty is as important as profit. But unfortunately it's an "assume we had a can opener" solution. Business equates profit with liberty because from the position of corporate leadership that actually makes sense.
Another solution would be to get government to regulate business in a way that would protect American values. But that's also an "assume we had a can opener" solution. Government equates corporate profits with American values, because corporate money plays a king maker role in our system.
You know, Marx is starting to look kind of prescient. I don't mean all the stuff that was done in his name over the years, stuff like vanguard bodies and "communist" states. He didn't foresee or advocate any of that. He thought capitalism would annihilate itself, not because of external pressure or force, but through following its own unchecked nature. The only thing is I seriously doubt the aftermath will resemble any kind of worker's paradise.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I'd run this thorough google translate, but I don't know what language it's supposed to be.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Show me China's free and open elections, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, unfettered access to the global Internet, respect for basic human rights, respect for civil rights, respect for due process, respect for a citizens desire to emigrate from China to another country, and so on, and so on, and so on. All rhetorical because China has none of those things.
He didn't say it HAD any of those things. He said it had capitalism (true), and imperial rule (which actually implies all of the things you just started).
I guess that's why you posted AC!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They'll put up with it as long as conditions continue to improve. It may not be perfect, but as long as they have a path towards greater personal wealth, there won't be widespread complaints. Perhaps this will change as future generations are born without the knowledge of what China was like prior to economic reforms it enacted, but the people who remember a time when things were far worse will not be so easy to stir up so long as things continue improving. Whether or not the Chinese government can continue to make that happen while maintaining the same level of control that they have historically had is an open question.
China is investing a lot of money in Africa in the same way that the U.S. invested a lot into China, so in some ways it seems as though they are trying to have our lifestyle. Unlike the western world, the Chinese aren't going to feel any guilt over colonialism or the like. Whether they'll be successful or not is another matter, but it's naive to think that the Chinese government is incompetent or incapable of trying to keep itself afloat as China continues to industrialize.
This is the sort of thing that leads to war and really pisses me off. Countries all over the world from Europe to the United States need to stop forcing there own jurisdictional boundaries beyond there boarder. The United States in particular should start respecting others jurisdictional boundaries.
It's sad and pathetic that other countries are so eager to appease the American authorities. It's even more pathetic that they are willingly surrendering citizens to be prosecuted under other countries laws when the people being extradited have never even stepped foot (more often than not) in the United States and are fully capable of prosecuting citizens within should they have actually committed a crime within the jurisdiction that they are acting from within.
This situation is particularly egregious given that a foreign entity and its executive thereof are not bound by American law and should not be persecuted under American laws for actions taken abroad that were not crimes in there own countries where they operated.
That's silly, what if they were never actually Communist, but Confucian Autocrats?
Westerns don't realize this, but Chinese and Korea societies are deeply Confucian, and the Confucian system is all about meritocracy; with the understanding that different types of merit exist. So they have traditional ways to make different types of governments based on the same underlying philosophy. For example in North Korea they are a Confucian Dictatorship, not any sort of "Communism." Merit in this case is believed to be inherent merit of the original ruler which he passed to his offspring. Very different than the European idea of kings being placed by God; instead they would presume that whatever natural powers they believe in endowed the leader with extra talents and skills for leadership, and his right to rule comes merely from ending up with more merit for the task.
China is an Authoritarian Confucian Bureaucratic state. Not communist, not capitalist. There is only one party because it is not representative; merely being alive is enough to be presumed to have equal merit in choosing leaders. Instead, people with more Merit rise through the bureaucratic system and get additional access to decision-making.
Of course they made room for the rich, by definition they've either proven their merit in actual practice, or used criminal acts to get there. If you're starting from the understanding that it is Confucianism wearing a Communist uniform then that was obvious all along.
One child policy was replaced once they got better at tracking the merit of individuals, and to gain data about what sort of tax structure would merely limit additional children to those with more merit.
You can't understand China with a view that only goes back to the Age of Empire, their system is a lot deeper than you think. And it isn't about the uniform that they wear so that foreigners can place them on an international team.
None of the different ideas about how to implement Confucian meritocracy involve being anti-business. None of them. They all assume that merit leads to prosperity; money, nice things, power, personal freedom, happiness, etc. But they have very different theories about which types of government lead to merit for a nation; eg, what leads to prosperity. They're always going to be pro-business, and they're always going to view unity as essential; once you figure out which system you're using, everybody needs to use that system.
None of their systems contain the western idea that open competition has more merit in government than purposeful unity. But that doesn't imply that they're against trade competition, or against individual economic freedom. They like individual economic freedom. They just consider political "freedom" to be anti-social and without merit; the thrashing of people without enough merit to participate in the decisions.
But that doesn't mean you should have that economic freedom as some sort of "right." You're expected to have enough merit to achieve it.
I did English->Spanish->Bulgarian->German->English and it tells me that it means,
Not just unusual communist / capitalist economies, no systems of government
I think he's saying that if you don't understand anything at all about systems of government, you'd end up thinking China is in the Age of Empire.
I think the more realistic scenario is some countries will run their own networks under/through the internet that don't follow its centrally-agreed-to rules.
Yeah, they have their firewall, someday we'll install one too. Then people will stop calling the Chinese network "internet."
Let me guess. Yet another person on the internet spewing whatever nonsense they want about China?
My predictions about you:
- Probably do not have a passport, if you do, it has limited usage
- you do not have a chinese entrance stamp on your passport.
Can you provide a few examples of china trying to "destory the west"? Want some examples of the west trying to destroy China? (hint, this article and many posts abou thte US tring to 'contain' china).
"they hate us" OMG.. are you serious?
one State-allowed child
You know they ended that rule a while ago, right? but why let facts get in the way of your nonsense.
PS.. they may have had a "one child" policy, but you had a forced sterilization program.. Seems the two programs are roughly equal?
"
The United States during the Progressive era, ca. 1890 to 1920, was the first country to concertedly undertake compulsory sterilization programs for the purpose of eugenics.[72] Thomas C. Leonard, professor at Princeton University, describes American eugenics and sterilization as ultimately rooted in economic arguments and further as a central element of Progressivism alongside wage controls, restricted immigration, and the introduction of pension programs.[73] The heads of the programs were avid proponents of eugenics and frequently argued for their programs which achieved some success nationwide mainly in the first half of the 20th Century.
"
How about Iran-Contra? This story is about iran trade violations... what about the US gvt violating its own embargo?
2 words: Great Firewall.
1 answer: yeah we should stop that.
I would have gone with, no, we don't need to stop it, because it is already contained by their own firewall. We just need to adjust our border protocol settings to prevent leakage.
1 answer: yeah we should stop that.
why? why do you think it is your business what they do? They are 13,000 miles away from you, why do you care so much about their rules/laws?
Have you considered that some Chinese want some form of censorship? Think about hte US prior to wide-spread porn. Was everyone in favour? What about the people who were not in favour, where is their voice? Have you considered your own censorship? Go on TV and say "f*ck".. see what happens.
Try getting yourself a passport, and entrace visa and spend some time there...
Sounds about right.....I worked for some Asians (here in Canada),....merit is rewarded...I think that the crowd that shouts (USA, USA, we are the best, everybody envies us etc) need to take off the rose colored glasses, reality is that the oligarchs like trump and the political machines like the Republicans and the (Republican lite: corporate Democrats) do find that the authority centered countries like China can get things done and after all, world companies function better when there is less political turmoil (except for blackwater type companies and of course the war machine military complex (world wide).
The Chinese attitude, I expect, is, "Who died and made you the boss?"
The
Except for the following market failures:
1) Inability to slow down and stop anthropogenic global warming (and ocean acidification) due to fossil fuel use
2) Inability to stop worldwide rapid ecosystem and biodiversity destruction (terrestrial, oceanic)
3) Inability to stop the rapid reduction of clean freshwater resources worldwide
4) Inability to use sustainable agricultural practices, leading to worldwide soil degradation.
5) Inability to prevent unsustainable increasing rates of consumption of non-renewable resources
6) Near future inability to distribute wealth to rapidly increasing unemployed percentage of population due to automation and AI
and I would be a little cautious about holding up US government as a shining example, being as how it is led by a cartoon character and serves the interests of large corporations over the interests of people.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
China has a method of tracking every online user as an ip range in and out of China.
That internet use then adds or takes from their social credit (Social Credit System) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The Communist party has a fear that people in China will read about:
Democracy
Tiananmen square
Term limits.
Find a cartoon bear funny.
Talk about protests and protesting.
In the USA a person has the freedom to talk online about politics and freedom.
To freedom to petition the Government.
The freedom of the press as a profession. A freedom of religion.
That makes the USA a much better location for publishing and networking political/art/faith/sport/mil content to and from.
All China can offer the USA and EU is the tracking of dissidents and Communist police reporting methods. Not something "internet" freedom needs more of.
The USA offers freedom of speech and freedom after speech.
Something the US internet can use to keep "publishing" and stay fun and interesting.
Who wants an internet controlled by Communist China? The political and publishing laws of a Germany, France, Spain? The UK laws of who and what a website can publish about?
The USA looks great against a list of EU nations police doing investigations and Communist party laws in China.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
that the country (or person) that dies with the most debt is the winner!
having debt means other people trust you.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Not only are commmunism/capitalism economic systems (and not government systems)......
Sorry about that, I don't know where the R came from.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I'm a Canadian, and I'm sick and tired of my government rolling over and being America's bitch. First the recent 'NAFTA' re-negotiations, and now this. Sure, Huawei probably bakes report-to-Chinese-goverment functionality into everything they make. And sure, America, and everyone else, has a right to be pissed off. But this arrest comes dangerously close to being an act of war - the US should never have done it, and my government sure as fuck should never have let it happen on Canadian soil. It's necessary to take China's plans for world domination seriously, and to make plans to counter them. But being irresponsible butthurt fucktards isn't the way to go about it.
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
You can't understand China with a view that only goes back to the Age of Empire, their system is a lot deeper than you think.
Confucianism is younger than the empire system in China.
China is an Authoritarian Confucian Bureaucratic state. Not communist, not capitalist.
Communism and capitalism aren't states, they are economic systems. Democracy, authoritarianism, anarchism, utopianism, and monarchy are all types of governments (not always plausible).
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
The US does business with worse countries than China. Does doing business with Saudi Arabia bring their values to America? Does using Israeli made CPUs (like many of Intel's parts) bring their culture to the US?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Import and exports do not stop a person with freedom of speech from publishing and talking.
Communist nations laws stop publications and track users who protest.
Theocracies have powerful blasphemy laws that track users and their comments about faith and wanting to not be part of a faith.
That will stop the freedom of speech.
Spain, Germany and France do not like publication on a wide range of political and historical topics. They will use laws to try and prevent further publication and find out who published.
The USA protects all the freedoms to publish and publish again. For the press to publish. To talk in the open about trade policy. Thats the values of the USA.
In contrast to Communist nations, theocracies and some of the EU nations.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
AC in the USA you are free to talk about a funny cartoon and term limits. Under a Communist government investigations start when such topics are mentioned.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Okay but how does Chinese companies holding some of the 5G patents block publications in America? How does using a Huawei router running firmware that was certified at source and binary level independently in the US stop freedom of speech?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Why should any country control the Internet? Because it can. And China will be able to, because its economic clout will soon exceed that of the US.
That's not how it works. The US has never controlled the internet in other nations, even though it has been the dominant economic power. China can be the dominant economic power on the planet and still not control other nations' internets.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
In the USA a person has the freedom to talk online about politics and freedom.
To freedom to petition the Government.
The freedom of the press as a profession. A freedom of religion.
China nominally also has these same rights. Nominally, as in on paper. On paper, China is the world's largest democracy. However, in the western world, that honor belongs to India because no western country recognizes China as a democracy.
The defining right of free speech that exists in the western world that is completely absent in China is the right to directly, openly, and repeatedly criticize the existing government leaders and to call for their removal. That right is the essence of the American First Amendment. It will never exist in China.
The USA has the academic ability to make its own telco equipment.
To seek out advanced EU nations who can make new telco equipment.
In the USA people have the freedom of speech to question all trade policy and seek out other nations to trade with.
The USA has that freedom to "petition the government" part to consider trade.
To talk about not trading with another nation for any reason.
Thats the power of freedom of speech. People do not have to worry about talking about "patents" and "firmware" from Communist nations.
People still have the freedom to seek out and publish ideas about not using telco parts from a Communist nation.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Want to know how cunning the American government is, https://www.theglobeandmail.co... and then they sucked in Canada to fucked it all up. What, Canada, you think you can pick up all the lost US exports to China, fuck you Canada, US then ponders let's see what stupid thing we can get Canada to do, as punishment for stealing those exports to China, ohh, I know we will exploit this treaty and get them to fuck themselves up, the US doesn't get the trade, that means Canada the sock puppet doesn't get the trade. Canada should still cop stick, even though it was sucked in, there never ever is a reward for stupidity, just in American movies, not ever in real life.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I thought it was strange that we grabbed this woman and pointed out that we had NO rights to do so. Yet, trump's ppl are doing it.
While Trump is right to go after China for their economic war on us, either directly or indirectly grabbing a CFO (who has NO say on who the company sells to), makes zero sense.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Can China control the next internet age when they cut themselves off from the internet?
...if we continue to sell our souls in the name of profit. Time and time again, we ignore the Chinese governments abuses and atrocities just so we can get access to their vast population. It's a literal deal with the devil.
Point is there is in human nature a need to have an enemy.
We really don't need an enemy.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
US elections are hardly free and fair either . Voter reregistration Gerrymandering Failure to supply enough working voting booths in ethnic areas Hell even your sex offender president did not get the most votes.
If you've read the history of Huawei in America, it's been clear for some time that they only wanted a foot-hold in the USA in order to spy and infiltrate things.
Some years back, they appointed an American citizen as the president of their U.S. operations, and picked a guy who lived out in the midwest. He didn't look anything like the type you'd expect was in charge of a telecom business at all, and I'm pretty certain he was just selected because he was happy to get paid big money to go along with whatever he was told.
As long as the company kept cranking out super low-cost "pay as you go" Android smartphones, I guess most people didn't care? But I'll bet everything they make has back doors in it for spying on something or other.
What the internet needs is to replace the tiered DNS system with a decentralized system.
Perhaps one based on NameCoin, which seems to be the most advanced so far, to the best of my knowledge.
Then we won't have to be so concerned with countries and borders and "authorities" messing things up.
The thing that concerns me is not that they are evil.
The thing that concerns me is that they clearly do not understand us. They will force us into war, just like Japan did, merely because they think that Trump will not be supported by the rest of the US. Because they think that deep down, we are like them and do not really value individual liberty and freedom. Because (like all other humans), they believe they are right.
They will go too far, it will be war, billions will die.
while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
Hmm... I think you have some serious issues. I mean really, you might want to consider visiting someone that can observably identify whether you're a danger to yourself and/or others.
The one child policy has been relaxed.
You are correct in one sense. The Chinese government is and has been Communist for a long time. Much of what the West sees as competition from the Chinese is completely misconstrued. The Chinese government really doesn't bother with competition... they really don't care who the best is. They focus instead on reaching the goal of a self-sustaining economy.
An example of this has been China's willingness so far to collect and take in much of the world's trash. Not only does it provide China massive amounts of natural resources, it also provides the money required to recycle it. They didn't accept the trash for free you know?
China has systematically focused on three key points
- Housing
- Food
- Energy
They have an incredible effort underway that will completely collapse the world housing market by making it basically free. If you want a house, the Chinese government will be able to provide one to you free of charge. They are simply recycling all our trash into the materials needed to provide them and using our money to recycle the materials.
They have many massive efforts underway to eliminate the need for classical farming. Whether this includes mass scale meat printing or massive underground automated farms able to yield 6-12 crops a year. The Chinese are moving incredibly fast to become 100% independent from the world market with regards to food. And thank goodness they're doing it. I believe this might be one of humanity's most desperate needs.
As for energy, they have the world's largest solar farms, they are taking wind power extremely seriously. They have managed to take control of massive oil interests and if they manage to arrange a "silk road" pipeline to Africa, then they have energy complete sorted out. Of course, I think they'll manage to go almost entirely renewable far faster than most western countries as their government has less bureaucracy involved in such decisions.
You are entirely wrong about China hating us. This is a major shortcoming in most people's understanding. They simply don't see us as anything other than tools to accomplish their goals. They want to achieve one China and are doing extremely well working towards it.
If they can use the world market long enough to become self sufficient, eventually they can simply withdraw from the world market and operate entirely internally. Once they pretty much collapse all the non-Chinese markets by withdrawing, countries like Taiwan will be forced to beg for entry to the One China and China won't make them beg, they'll simply embrace them with open arms and accept them in.
You are right, as designed by Plato so long ago, they will need to have a ruling class and a working class. Chinese Communism has a believe that they've improved on the Republic and hopefully have worked out the serious kinks. It does however require a simple belief.... the government will let you be so long as you don't rock the boat. This means that there will be none of this American style "everyone is the enemy except me and mine" instead, everyone will contribute the best they can and a balance will eventually be struck.
China is not what you think it is. It's actually a lot closer to the American dream than when America offers today. Chinese Communism rewards people looking for the American dream.
But I guess anger and hate is a much easier thing for you to understand?
"Bugger off, I know better"?
I read more positive in the news each day about China than negative. There are some bad actors and we scream it from the tops of our mountains for all to hear. There are also a lot of damn good things going on in China.
Foreign national operatives? I'm choking on this... do you have any idea how many stories I read each year implicating the American government on mass scale spying operations within and without? Do you honestly think this is a one-sided relationship?
The main difference is that no one notices a Chinese person working somewhere in the west anymore... but a white guy in Beijing still stands out.
Like in my earlier statement.... you should see someone. I recommend maybe a proper brain scan as well. I think we have much to learn about serious brain disorders by studying you closely
Strictly speaking he broke the laws of Canada too; Canadian authorities just had no real interest in prosecuting him except as a nuisance, especially as wind was already in the air for legalization in Canada. Plus his operation was more a bona fide political movement than as a criminal 'drug dealer'.
Nevertheless at the time, it was still illegal in both jurisdictions, and the treaties in place with the US meant that as a matter of law they could request his arrest and extradition.
I strongly suspect this Meng case is likely entirely legal as well. Canada would not have arrested her and provoked China like this if the legal backing wasn't rock solid.
Are you fucking serious? That's the tactic you are going to use? EVERYONE knows you just lost the argument. You couldn't be bothered to expend a couple of calories to state your case, instead you cunted out and attacked his character. That's the last tactic of the lazy liberal left. You're a coward and now you're a public pussy. I hope you don't interact with adults on a daily basis.
The GP is a moron who accuses everyone of being a Nazi. You, however, are an even larger moron and a threat to democracy. Instead of being happy when assholes expose themselves, you want to force them into the dark corners where they won't be discovered. You've decided that there are limits to speech. Who decides these limits? You? You're both idiots.
Begin Rope is hardly a valid physical threat. It's a vague general threat against an unspecified somebody. Nobody was actually targeted, not in the singular sense. The "threat" barely even qualifies against a group. Anyone of any common sense knows this asshole is just blowing hot air. He probably lives in a basement and jerks it to tranny porn, no doubt imagining himself as the bottom.
Grow a thicker skin.. Jesus Christ.... Your complaints and whining remind me of a 6 year old girl who isn't getting her way.
No the GP was right for everything except (as usual) the use of the term "free market". The "perfect market" is what he GP is referring to. The internet *was* a perfect market early in it's life.
People often confuse the terms and freak out at the idea of regulation. The reality is for their "perfect market" to exist regulation is a must as the "perfect market" is a "free market" at it's most unstable point. A free market on the other hand will tend towards monopoly and consolidation of power, and the natural endgame of the free market doesn't solve any problems in a way that benefits society.
No. Like most western countries, the US has decided to dump engineering and science and logical thinking. We prepare to become more stupefied than ever. And we all do that willingly or because we are manipulated in that direction. Mostly because we are lazy.
Sorry, for being negative today, but just had some "great news" from the political domain as input and read university correspondence.
"They will force us into war, just like Japan did,"
Right..
As i posted before, you do realize they are approximatly 13,000 miles away right? If you dont like them, why not just not deal with them?
They have disputed islands (just like the US).. So what does the US do? Sail warships there to "prove a point".. I guess that is being "forced into war"?
Technical illiterate, scared, and indoctrinated people elect politicians who are themselves technical illiterate. They do so for three reasons: (a) they understand what theses politicians are saying. Of course it is bullshit, but it conforms with the people's opinion. (b) these politicians get more funding by lobbyists and interest groups. (c) adverts and political indoctrination via "news outlets" specifically, local news, Fox News, favorite Youtube rubbish. Furthermore, the "other side" in media follows the old style of "we only report" and "let's hear both sides argument" practice.
The people are illiterate, because the education system is broken. This is not only the case in the USA, but also in many other western countries.
name calling.. the last resort of a moron.
In the early days, it had no significant international capacity. International links were supplied by International Packet Switch Stream.
Yes, the US forged TCP/IP, but authentication and security were taken from CCITT standards.
Yes, the US held the root DNS, the IANA and ICANN, but that's by convention. In the 90s, I always cloned the DNS servers of sites I connected to, because DNS was so unreliable and slow. I used my own independent DNS tree first, theirs as backup.
Control is tenuous, power is a phantom, in a cooperative market/federation like the Internet. If China, or the UN, wanted to take the Internet from the US, all they'd need is something better and sufficient mindshare.
There are no owners, outside the physical, and no loyalty to any self-proclaimed elite.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Would these would be the same US executives who have given us some the worst broadband access in any first world country while charging us more than virtually every other country?
Would they be the same executives who have actively opposed any regulations that would help the consumer and then forced consumers into one-sided arbitration agreements to take away their ability to even sue the companies?
Would they be the same executives who load up hidden fees on contracts, making any advertised price you see a complete joke?
Would they be the same executives who forced data caps down the customers' throats?
Would they be the same executives who have been using data caps and speed throttling to make using competing streaming services while allowing their own streaming services to be unhindered?
I could go on, but I think I've made up my mind. Fuck those executives. Every goddamn one of them can rot and die in a Chinese prison. The rest of us will be better off without them.
Mod up please, I heartily agree with you.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
...and I would be a little cautious about holding up US government as a shining example, being as how it is led by a cartoon character and serves the interests of large corporations over the interests of people.
You probably didn't notice but at least the past 6, and probably more, administrations have served the interests of large corporations over the interests of people. If you think that voting for one of the two big parties is the solution you haven't been paying attention. If you regard the middle class as a barometer it's been falling since the 70's, during both D and R administrations.
> They have disputed islands (just like the US)..
I must have missed the part where the US is building up military bases on those islands, adding artificial military platforms, and is using them to try and control trade and freedom of navigation of our neighbors (the 9 dash line, as rejected by a UN arbitral tribunal).
Name a country the US doesnt have a military presense in.
I see.. it is is great the US does this, but not other countries?
War Is A Racket
By Major General Smedley Butler
Good book..
So will she get a "suspended prison term" Like Mr. North got?
You seem to be mixing up economic and political philosophy.
Last thing I'm saying to you: Want to know why I'm not bothering responding to your trolling? Because you're speaking in support of a shit government that treats it's people shitty and there's no excuse for that. You can say "Oh well the U.S. is shitty and corrupt so you have no room to say anything about other countries" but that's complete and utter BULLSHIT, BAD is BAD, the Communist Chinese government is BAD, and I have no use for anyone who supports them for any reason -- and you're supporting them with your words (and your deeds perhaps) therefore all you get is a big fat "FUCK YOU". What's next for you? You going to speak in support of Iran, North Korea, and Bashir al-Assad, too? Vladimir Putin? Donald Trump? Eat shit and die.
The answer isn't a one party system, a two party system, or a many party system. The answer is a zero party system where each candidate has to fight individually.
"But they were acknowledged as crimes and big deals, they got attention,"
Yup
" things changed."
*Scratches head* When? Probably about the same time as net neutrality issues, copyright cartel abuses, and nsa domestic wiretapping. As in, things were passed that claimed to be intended to fix the problems but actually gave legitimacy to the actions instead.
I really wish you would write better comments.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Except that the actions she was arrested for took place in NYC, NY, USA. So, you know, that tends to fall under US jurisdiction.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
She's being arrested for things she (allegedly) did in NYC, and the US requested an extradition for that. Are the charges made up? Probably not. But the Canadian government is giving her a chance to demonstrate it's BS before they extradite her. That's pretty much how extradition works.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
What you are referring to as Confucianism is basically the Chinese version of Legalism with a thin veneer of Confucianism on top to keep the masses happy. In the Qin Dinasty China placed everyone under a class system with 10 classes which was supposed to be meritocratic. As Confucianism became more adopted the regime became increasingly bureaucratic and the 'merit' basically consisted of written exams in which you basically reflected on ancient Chinese texts. Do that over and over a couple of hundred years and you stifle all creativity in society.
Oh and a lot of people basically passed the tests by bribery as you can expect of a regime like that.
He might have been but in Qin China Confucianism was not widely adopted by the state. That only happened much later. Back then they had a major Taoist bent. Which might be pseudo-scientific crap but at least they tried to understand the universe around them somehow. A lot of Taoist 'theory' if you can call it that is basically their equivalent of a blend of our Western Society's Greek schools of thought. It's like if you mix up Heraclitus with the Five Elements and a bunch of other crap. The difference is while we did lose a lot of knowledge about the Greek schools of thought, we never lost quite as much as the Chinese thanks to the Qin's "burial of the scholars" and the Han's burning of the Qin's Imperial Library. The Chinese basically lost technology in the transition from Zhou to Qin to Han. Plus because of the imperial exam system in the later periods all philosophical development was basically stalled.
A lot of the trade imbalance is plain BS. Just analyze the costs and money flows of iPhone production for example and you'll see the issues. The whole situation was created by the elites in both countries to enrich themselves and blame the other guy.
And likewise in the West, even the parts of culture that came from the Greeks weren't necessarily adopted by everybody at that time. And indeed culture existed before the Greeks.
A bureaucratic state is one where there are lots of employees in the government who wield power granted by some sort of multilayer bureaucracy with its own rules and levers of power that are largely not operated directly by a ruler. It is an aspect of government that can, and usually does, exist combined with some other aspect of government. Perhaps department heads are hereditary, or perhaps they are elected, or perhaps even appointed by an elected head of State. It differs from "autocratic," which also still leaves attributes undefined. (Machiavelli warned that in a traditional bureaucracy, if the Prince gains enough power and replaces the bureaucrats with magistrates, the ruling classes will revolt whenever the Prince is weak, and the new Magistrates will understand that their position is reliant on the Prince and will seek to stab him in the back at the earliest sign of trouble in order to gain the forgiveness of the rest of the ruling class.)
Communism, if the pedants were even correct, would exactly mean the government, the ability to regulate, the ownership, not the economic part which is described as Socialism. And to some extent Capitalism is an economic system, in that it is the economic system that exists when you have a government that is not involved in business and regulated markets in the way described in Wealth of Nations to create a level playing field for new capital. But it is a bit obtuse to claim it is somehow not a matter of governance.
Right, but attempts to get pedantic about the etymology entirely miss the point, which is about the way that people in a large part of East Asia see their governments now, and what the public viewpoints are that the governments try to pander to. Just like, people in the west refer to the Greeks as the founders of western culture without even knowing who the Greeks were, who the Minoans were, what any of the culture actually was, or how it differed from other ideas in different parts of Europe. None of that matters, people still presume some sort of common connection, and whatever the modern mythology is, that is what modern people base their cultural understanding on.
If China, North Korea, South Korea, and Taiwan were all on TV engaged in Battle Virtue Signaling, they'd all be trying to show the same virtues, they'd all be fighting over their version of who is the True Scotsman, but it would be who is the Truly Meritorious Confucian.
I just wish western governments would understand that, and try sometimes to position our squabbles so that we appear more Meritorious. Instead we perhaps appear pedantic and strident, like a strong person with some sour grapes who didn't learn to check them in the market. It hobbles diplomacy.
In Thailand they used to convert your merit to a number, and you had to wear the number on your shirt to be allowed to go in public.
The numbers could be added to or subtracted from at the whim of local magistrates.
Abolishing that system is also referred to as "freeing the slaves."
They did take over cars. Ever heard of Toyota and Honda?
They failed with the electronics segment because the South Koreans undercut them to it. Still most of the segment moved out of the USA. Guess who is the world's largest electronics company in the world today? Samsung. There are parts of the sector still remaining in the USA, yes, but that slice of the pie keeps shrinking and shrinking in terms of number of devices.
There are communist groups even in democracies. Orderville comes to mind as an especially nice example. OK, so in what way is the Chinese government meritocratic? Did the princelings pass their Confucian exams with flying colors? Did Xi demonstrate his excellent decision making?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
The current Chinese government has leaders well educated in technical sectors for sure. Personally I liked the previous leader (i.e. Hu Jintao) better. I think that government was more focused on actually achievable goals and left much of the rest to take care of itself with minimal interference. This guy takes a much more heavy handed approach to rule. It's like they decided to go back to the imperial regime again.
I can understand why they did it. They probably expected friction with the West and that's why he was granted plenipotentiary powers. They are basically cleaning up their house (remember Stalin's Purges?) before the major event happens.
ahahahahahahha
Thanks for the laugh
Please stop APK.. you're only hurting yourself.