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Dutch Surgeon Wins Landmark 'Right To Be Forgotten' Case (theguardian.com)

AmiMoJo shares a report from The Guardian: A Dutch surgeon formally disciplined for her medical negligence has won a legal action to remove Google search results about her case in a landmark "right to be forgotten" ruling. The doctor's registration on the register of healthcare professionals was initially suspended by a disciplinary panel because of her postoperative care of a patient. After an appeal, this was changed to a conditional suspension under which she was allowed to continue to practice. But the first results after entering the doctor's name in Google continued to be links to a website containing an unofficial blacklist, which it was claimed amounted to "digital pillory." It was heard that potential patients had found the blacklist on Google and discussed the case on a web forum. The surgeon's lawyer, Willem van Lynden, said the ruling was groundbreaking in ensuring doctors would no longer be judged by Google on their fitness to practice. "Now they will have to bring down thousands of pages: that is what will happen, in my view. There is a medical disciplinary panel but Google have been the judge until now. They have decided whether to take a page down -- and why do they have that position?" Van Lynden said.

250 comments

  1. Yelp by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So Yelp is allowed to keep going but medical professionals who impact lives instead of serving food are allowed to "be forgotten?"

    1. Re:Yelp by crashumbc · · Score: 1

      Agreed

    2. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doctors are above the law. They are state-sanctioned brutes with the power of life and death.

    3. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Remember you said that when you have health issues. I'm sure your home remedies will suffice.

    4. Re:Yelp by xski · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I don't see where he repudiated medical science, only the practitioners and how they're administered.

      Nuance, FTW.

    5. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who needs a bloodletting? What? That's no longer modern science? But don't worry, what we have today is awesome. No one will be looking back in 100 years thinking doctors were barbarians.

    6. Re:Yelp by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      So Yelp is allowed to keep going but medical professionals who impact lives instead of serving food are allowed to "be forgotten?"

      There are Yelp reviews for medical professionals. A rude receptionist is by far the most common reason for a doctor to receive a poor Yelp review. I have never seen a Yelp review mention the quality of care.

    7. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh oh, someone isn't paying attention!

      https://emergencymedicinecases...

      Basically doctors are experimenting on the population at large.

      "Let's stop doing appendectomies and pump people full of antibiotics even though we know our scans have trouble with the appendix (what's that? It can have five different positions in the human body and it can be long, short, thin, or fat too? Oh my!)"

      Who cares about the long-term consequences? By the time the chickens come home to roost, the doctor that misdiagnosed you will have retired and the problem is yours!

      Besides, I don't understand your point. You mean one day we'll realize that treating acute appendicitis with antibiotics is wrong? We've known that since at least 1962, I can find you articles so old they aren't even available on-line yet.

      And yet doctors keep going back and forth on acute appendicitis. Rule it out! Surgery is bad even though our surgeons are busy with frivolous surgeries every day! OK antibiotics don't work! Let's go back to surgery! Oh no! We can't do that! Too risky! Back to antibiotics!

      Learn a bit more about acute appendicitis, the appendix, antibiotics, how insensitive MRIs and CT scans actually are, and get back to me if you still trust these people.

      They are fumble-fingered brutes clawing in the dark bombarding you with showers of antibiotics then they send you home. And when the chronic conditions start, good luck to you!

      I sincerely hope you get to experience modern medicine's stupidity first-hand one day. Then, you will understand.

      Doctors are not infallible, not omniscient, and I get the feeling they honestly just make things up on the spot hoping you'll heal on your own while they talk nonsense to you.

    8. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey you want another example of modern medical blindness? You think mammograms are cut-and-dry settled science?

      https://www.cbc.ca/radio/white...

      Oops. Turns out human bodies are variable? Who knew! Certainly not the radiologists who are baffled, BAFFLED, that dense breast tissue (healthy!) is white on a mammogram, and so is cancer tissue!

      This is a baffling situation. Let's just put "normal" on the report and go on with our busy day sipping lattés and misdiagnosing more people!

      This woman's situation actually wouldn't have happened in Quebec, I suppose one of the rare times Quebec is ahead in something medical.

      But still, you trust these clowns? Why? Just because they have computers? Or expensive x-ray machines? Or an alphabet soup after their name?

      The worst part: all these stories that I can keep submitting to you... come from DOCTORS themselves!

      Go argue with them!

    9. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have never seen a Yelp review mention the quality of care.

      You haven't looked very hard. While scheduling problems and rude receptionists are common themes, many doctors reviews include detailed accounts of the care they did or did not provide.

    10. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I connected with a woman on usenet years ago who was posting about the clinical misbehaviour (medical, not sexual) of an anonymous gastroenterologist. Upon comparing notes I found I correctly determined it was the same doctor who mistreated me, just from her description of the practice.

      A few years later the city's medical officer of health required a 'get checked for hepatitis' notice to be sent to her patients because of improper sterilizing of equipment. I and 6,000 other former patients received that letter. Fortunately, no patient caught it.

      That doctor eventually lost her Ontario license after an extended fight and waste of resources. $$$$$ were wasted because of her negligence, thousands were worried about catching a nasty illness.

      Former Doctor Farazli and other medical doctors should not be able to hide their negligence so trivially.

    11. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of these problems are fairly specific to the US and your insurance-based for-profit healthcare system.

    12. Re:Yelp by Froboz23 · · Score: 2

      Was the surgeon's name Dr. Streisand, by chance?

      --
      Take off every Sig. For great justice.
    13. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you even read the article you are siting?!? (slashdot, I know, reading and all)

      The article is about the Family practitioners not telling patients they have dense breast tissue REPORTED BY THE RADIOLOGISTS. The imagers are not baffled at all.

      Get your blame targets correct!

    14. Re:Yelp by thegarbz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So Yelp is allowed to keep going but medical professionals who impact lives instead of serving food are allowed to "be forgotten?"

      Why does this not make perfect sense to you? A few iditos rambling about shity service on a review page vs a result that incorrectly says someone is unfit for practice while actually being deemed fit by the medical review board; it makes perfect sense to correct the latter problem.

      This is not surprising give the Dutch approach to problems. Do the crime, do the punishment, and unlike the American way where your life is screwed as a result after the punishment has been dealt many European countries consider you perfectly good to re-integrate into society.

    15. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh really? I'm Canadian, genius.

    16. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Did you even read the article you are siting?!?"

      "citing", genius.

      (AC, I know, writing and all)

      Oh wow, and that helps the PATIENTS how if a DOCTOR is a FUCKING IDIOT? The radiologists reports are rarely read correctly and simply scanned quickly.

      "physicians aren't instructed to tell their patients about it."

      You go see a PHYSICIAN, not a radiologist, they simply hide behind their screen and toss their five word, one paragraph report over to the physician... You don't see a problem here?

      " The imagers are not baffled at all."

      They aren't? Really? "Screen white, all OK"???

      Well wow, they're not baffled at all and you go home with an "all clear"? ...and this is medicine to you? A bunch of bureaucrats going through their little procedures each in their little corner with no one responsible directly to the patient?

      What are you, a doctor? My veterinarian is more responsible for the cat I brought in than doctors seem to be towards people.

    17. Re:Yelp by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Yep, nobody will have ever heard of her and what she did now. Certainly not the entire news reading world...

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    18. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes because Yelp reviews businesses, whereas this is about mob justice lynching an individual.

      Outside of America, businesses and individuals are still two distinctly separate types of things.

    19. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly understand nothing about medicine; fortunately your doctor will always provide help regardless of your stupid views.

    20. Re:Yelp by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      The doctor in question was allowed by the professional body to continue practising. The body is there not to punish, but to ensure that when mistakes are made they are corrected and the doctor doesn't repeat them. That's the truth.

      It is of course fine for Google to report that. But it's not okay to report false information. Companies that provide information about people, such as credit rating agencies, are strictly regulated in the EU and have a duty to provide accurate information. Our data protection laws require users to be able to inspect and correct inaccurate information about themselves.

      Yelp can host bad reviews as long as they are true, otherwise it's libel and data protection laws require them to remove them once notified.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most diseases are treated symptomatically
      .
      That's why cancer and HIV are problems.doctors do not know what is really happening in the body

      Cancer treatment these days is a math, statistical problem... No pretence even of targeted, individual treatment

      Etc.etc.etc.etc

    22. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL wait and see. You're either too young to have ever really needed a doctor or had nothing but simple and obvious problems they could have solved in 1940.

      https://emergencymedicinecases...

      Ooops. Listen, learn, and hope you never, ever have anything that requires more than 5 minutes of "thinking" by a doctor. I'd rather have been shot than what I have now.

    23. Re:Yelp by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 2

      The point was that while the article talks about some no-name blacklist site that was damaging the career of the person, Yelp is a major site who's entire business is using negative reviews to muscle businesses into paying for good reviews in their place.

    24. Re:Yelp by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's about a blacklist site attempting to muscle people into paying to get out, and a blacklist site attempting to muscle people into paying to get out.

    25. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bahahahaha! Just this morning:

      https://www.sciencealert.com/h...

      Doctors barely understand medicine, genius!

    26. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Medical professionals are elite, not brutish thugs like working class subhumans.

    27. Re:Yelp by Luckyo · · Score: 0

      In US, yelp can keep doing the racket, shaking businesses down with threats of bad reviews they have been doing for last half a decade or so. That hasn't changed.

      Here, the issue is clear. Social media lynching should be forbidden just like real life lynching is, and for the very same reasons. No matter how sane and intelligent individuals are, mob is insane and dumb. And social media is increasingly about mobbing and lynching today. See: the recent maga hat kid vs indian activist scandal. I think it's sane to require that when mob clearly got it wrong, records of falsehoods related to person's purported actions should be purged at the request of the victim of mobbing. Going through the court provides the sanity check within the system, where case is weighted on individual merits, and cases where information is correct and useful for public dissemination stays in spite of requests to take it down, while information that is false, outdated and damaging to individual is purged.

    28. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doctors sue people who post negative reviews all the time because they have the money to hire lawyers. The right to be forgotten allows the wealthy who can hire lawyers the chance to have their cake and eat it too. It whitewashes history and is the opposite of transparency.

    29. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. The problem is that you fuckers want us to keep paying for the research but are scared that we might fart and blow your house of cards down.

    30. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're okay with a convicted pedophile babysitting your kid? They did the time so they must be safe now.

    31. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats because they have for decades and decades, systematically ignored real evidence based research and knowledge which could get you better. There are do many known carcinogenic environmental factors (poor food sourcing, chemical use, basic nutrition) longtime know, that these medical/pharm industry have either willfully ignored, or worse, ghost wrote out of journals, literally funded thenselves.

      There were many articles about this even 10 years ago, but probably people here forgot these scandals or are too young to have known.

      People with real good knowledge know this, but have no power to change or influence it, because industry has such a grip on medical field (including not to forget also the insurance industry).

    32. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In order that thegarbz remain consistent, I feel compelled to respond in the affirmative on his behalf. Yes, thegarbz would be totally unconcerned hiring a former pedophile to babysit his kids, would be totally unconcerned letting his wife go to a gynecologist who had been a former serial rapist, would have no issue allowing former serial murderers become police officers, former mail bombers become post-office workers, thieves become bank security guards, etc. To remain consistent, thegarbz must immediately forget all past transgressions of everybody once the corresponding punishment has been administered.

    33. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know how I know you're an idiot crank?

      Because your repeated use of "rule out" in scare quotes is a standard idiot crank habit.

      Because when diagnostic guidance written for doctors tells them to "do X to rule out Y", that means "This could be Y, so make sure you check for that before you assume otherwise". It does not mean "do X to give you an excuse to ignore the possibility of Y". It means exactly the opposite.

      It's actually a pretty common phenomenon for ignorant cretins to get hung up on random stock phrases like that in technical material.

    34. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Canadian medical system is an atrocity. They are experimenting on the population at large and ignoring the effects afterwards.

      Go listen to the appendicitis podcast by canadian doctors. This is straight from doctors!

      https://emergencymedicinecases...

      It's only about an hour and a half long. But towards the end they say "there are things we don't know about treating (acute) appendicitis with antibiotics". But they "rule out appendicitis" anyways in emergency rooms and prefer diagnosing other conditions that match abdominal pain. Then they trot out the antibiotics bazooka and fire away point blank, the symptoms go away, another victory for Canadian medicine.

      The problem is that now you have a scarred appendix, or worse, a trapped appendicolith. When that thing decides it's time to come out, believe me, it hits like a freight train, and goes away just as quickly. You have no idea what's going on, but the fact that the pain is gone so quickly you think it's a gall stone or a kidney stone or something like that.

      The notion of an appendicolith being expelled is foreign to modern medicine, yet it comes back a lot in 19th century and early 20th century Western medicine. Were they all liars?

      And another curious thing, this podcast is called "Appendicitis controversies", presumably because chronic or recurrent appendicitis are not accepted by modern medicine. But you can find articles from 1928 that use the same exact language about controversy... You'd think in 90 years we'd have somewhat gained more knowledge about this?

      No? Why not? You want to know the real controversies in my opinion?
      1) Why is the appendix connected directly to the intestines but not considered part of the gastroenterologist's domain?
      2) Why isn't the fact that the appendix can be in five different places taught in first year med school to everyone? Why does every drawing of the intestines show the appendix as a chubby pink happy harmless gummy bear?
      3) The appendix comes from the same place as the colon, 6th week of life as an embryo. Look it up. So why wouldn't it act the same way as the colon with regards to healing? It HEALS. But when it does, it can become a mucocele.
      https://radiopaedia.org/articl...
      4) With five different positions inside the body, isn't it possible that a chronically inflamed appendix can present as FIVE DIFFERENT SETS OF SYMPTOMS? What about if the appendix is on the left side?
      5) The appendix has an unbelievable amount of nerve endings on it. The vagus nerve also controls the heart... Just saying. Look up some case reports of chronic appendicitis and take a look at the symptoms.

      The real controversy is why doctors are shockingly ignorant about basic anatomy, the limits of their own scans, and why they think ruling out appendicitis given the lack of sensitivity of MRIs and CT scans to the chronically inflamed appendix is a good idea?

      They're condemning misdiagnosed patients to a life of misery, all that to avoid a 30 minute surgery they were able to perform in World War I.

      So yeah, I avoid doctors and hospitals as if they were going to stab me in the heart. They already gave me a nice iatrogenic condition and now I am facing these lab-coated thugs on my own. I used to be athletic and in shape, now I can barely breathe and feel a constant lump in my abdomen and it feels cold in there.

      Congratulations modern medicine! You can staple the stomach of someone who ate themselves to 600 pounds but are unable to recognize your own errors in turning a healthy person into an inactive lump because you want to "do no harm" and avoid surgery!

      Hurray! Hurrah! Oh Canada!!!

    35. Re: Yelp by AlwinBarni · · Score: 3, Insightful

      With one swipe you threw into trash many hard working and devoted professionals and years of research, studies and trials.

      There are doctors and there are doctors - like in any other profession involving humans, despite of drawbacks, problems and botched surgeries there are much more cases of saved lives and utter devotion to helping people, and since you heard about the bad cases it means that check and balances work (not perfectly, but still).

      Progress in medicine is outstanding, true, not all conditions are well understood, but more and more are, there are plenty of truly saving lives discoveries - let's be honest here - how many scientific articles have you read last week devoted to medicine? My guess is none, I guess you have not even read about the last year Nobel, where a revolutionary treatment for deadly skin cancer was awarded "for their discovery of cancer therapy by inhibition of negative immune regulation".

      There are plenty of just recently discovered life savings treatments, HIV is not a death sentence anymore, cancer on many occasions is treatable (e.g. CAR T-Cell Immunotherapy), transplant surgeries save lives, artificial parts (including heart) save lives, universal vaccines for whole groups of viruses are on the horizon.

      Lastly, it's the XXI century, we have Internet and Google, all what's needed is a willingness to read to have an informed opinion vs just an opinion.

    36. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And who is going to administer that medical science? Him? You? The ghost of Elvis Presley?

      Rationality, FTW.

    37. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice one. Busy setting up some .onion sites dedicated to this ruling.

    38. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I put it in quotes because ... I am quoting the podast. Now go listen to it and tell me if it's a "crank" thing to realize that forcing emergency personnel to rule out (acute) appendicitis (there, no quotes, happy?) is a bad idea given that:
      1) As the doctors themselves say, appendicitis typically presents atypically. (There, no quotes, even though I would have put them because ... again... I am quoting the doctors) Based on what omniscient insight do you rule out appendicitis? If it's so simple, give us your checklist. The discredited Alvarado Appendicitis Scoring System that's still used? Hmm? (I really had to fight the urge to put quotes there. Happy?)

      2) MRIs and CTs are actually very insensitive to a range of conditions, and in any case, they are interpreted by a radiologist and presented as hard fact. Go see the case of the woman with three year's worth of "clear" (Oh no, quotes. I must be a crank and made up the lady too!) mammograms who had cancer all along.
      https://www.cbc.ca/radio/white...

      Still think you can "rule out" conditions based on a scan? Huh? Is that a "crank" thing? This is from DOCTORS themselves. SOME of them seem to know what's cooking. Good luck finding out if your doctor does or if he's just another goldbricker. Still think doctors do no harm? That scans are 100% reliable? That everyone knows what is going on?

      Good luck to you. I also thought highly of doctors until... my life changed and suddenly I realized these people are lazy buffoons.

      So far in my life I had several encounters with emergency personnel and doctors. I burned my hand. I had a weird skin condition. I had a large cut on my leg. All solved properly. As long as everything is visible and unequivocal, the system seems to work fine.

      You're on your own as soon as even the tiniest doubt exists or reports come back equivocal. What the hell does "an angiomyolipoma is not seen with certitude" mean if a chronically inflamed appendix has fat stranding but the stupid scan has 11mm slices but the appendix can have an 8mm lumen? Ooops, it depends on where exactly on the table you lied that day?

      Or how about this: water is incompressible... at least in the human body. What's the purpose of distending the intestines with a gallon of water before a scan ... to push away and compress soft tumors to make sure you can't see them? I already know I don't have Crohn's.... you ever see someone with Crohn's with weight gain, a healthy appetite, and no diarrhea, no bloody stool, normal transit time? Hmmm? Have you?

      Shortness of breath, though... Appendiceal cancer? Oh, there's a nice one, it's an "incidental" finding because again, this will never show up clearly on a scan. BTW, "incidental" usually means in the morgue. Congratulations! Another win for modern "fact-based" medicine!

      Here:

      https://www.wbur.org/commonhea...

      Now go tell Dr Smink about *your* theories about the appendix, oh mysterious doctor.

    39. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody ever said that he did. Perhaps you should stop putting words into people's mouths.

    40. Re:Yelp by grep+-v+'.*'+* · · Score: 1

      So Yelp is allowed to keep going

      An excellent bowl of blood pudding is worth more than your life. You have to choose your battles carefully.

      --
      If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
    41. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's actually a pretty common phenomenon for ignorant cretins to get hung up on random stock phrases like that in technical material."

      Sort of how you got hung up on my quotes, you just jumped to a conclusion without considering other possibilities and immediately became arrogant and provided no evidence for your side. You'd make an excellent doctor.

      BTW, do your clinical guidelines for acute appendicitis make sure you rule out coincidence before you attribute signs and symptoms to something else? You know, given that nothing can predict or prevent acute appendicitis? What are the chances that in the general population someone gets acute appendicitis at the same time as, say, taking antibiotics for something else completely unrelated (say, wisdom tooth extraction)?

      What would cause black stools that day, doctor?
      1) The acute appendicitis?
      2) The clindamycin prescribed by the oral surgeon caused colitis in 24 hours?
      3) Swallowing your own blood from the holes left after the extraction?

      Quick, the patient is in fetal position on the ground, he's a young otherwise healthy male in his late 20s who barely walked in the clinic but is now in fetal position whimpering on the floor but can still get up if asked (athletic slim male in his 20s....).

      What's the diagnosis, based on what evidence, and what treatment do you provide?

      Same patient walks in to his family physician a few months after that incident starting to complain about various digestive issues the patient never had before and that no one else in his family has? Anal fissures that come and go. Stabbing pain the in rectum. Comes and goes in 5 minutes.

      What happened?

    42. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [...]

      There are Yelp reviews for medical professionals. A rude receptionist is by far the most common reason for a doctor to receive a poor Yelp review. I have never seen a Yelp review mention the quality of care.

      OK, which medical professional is paying to shill for them?

      Took me literally 15s of searching Google to turn up:
      https://www.mdconnectinc.com/medical-marketing-insights/yelp-reviews-hospital-quality
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4845957/

    43. Re:Yelp by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      it's not okay to report false information. Companies that provide information about people, such as credit rating agencies, are strictly regulated in the EU and have a duty to provide accurate information.

      And who gets to decide what's accurate? Google? Scientists? Courts? Democratic elections? You?

      It would take geologic eons for anyone to judge all 30 trillion web pages that Google indexes. Not to mention there's nobody that everyone trusts.

      If you wanted accurate information, I suggest you stick to encyclopedias (a real one, not Wikipedia) and meta studies published in reputable journals instead of Google search results. Of course even those can contain errors, in which you can just stick with "I think therefore I am" and be 100% certain of it's accuracy.

    44. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're gonna be pedantic... You've got an improper use of the word scan... To quickly scan doesn't technically make much sense.

    45. Re: Yelp by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but he wouldn't be in favour of allowing someone who built a shitty audio system to totally rewrite Linux. That's going too far even for him.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    46. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    47. Re:Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    48. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Appendicitis is a clinical diagnosis. As such it does not require any scans, especially in men. All that is necessary is a physical exam.
      I donâ(TM)t know what happened in your case but there are some exceptions. That is why a certain number of appendectomies performed show on final pathology anything from cancer to a negative appendicitis.

    49. Re: Yelp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) That's ACUTE appendicitis. It would be nice to use the proper terminology, don't you think?
      2) "All that is necessary is a physical exam.". Sure, read below, the next comment... 58002338
      3) " That is why a certain number of appendectomies performed show on final pathology anything from cancer to a negative appendicitis."

      THAT'S the problem. A weird fixation on this "negative appendectomy rate", which leads to some sort of bizarre pressure on personnel to RULE OUT APPENDICITIS at all costs. I guess surgeons are busy doing frivolous surgeries and have no time for a gross appendectomy.

      You assume that only one thing can happen to a person at a time. What about pure, stupid, COINCIDENCE?

      What can cause black stools? And how can black stools make a doctor overlook other symptoms in the rush to RULE OUT APPENDICITIS!??

      Just because someone called it "colitis" and it responded to antibiotics, doesn't mean it was colitis.

      All it means is it responded to antibiotics and symptoms went away.

      Acute appendicitis is such a condition. Not only is it known since at least 1962 that antibiotics can treat acute appendicitis in cases were surgeons are not immediately available, but it is also known since 1962 that antibiotics can MASK symptoms of acute appendicitis.... And if you go further back this knowledge actually came from the time before penicillin: it was already known from the time of sulfa compounds! Duh!

      So, tell me, why isn't this common knowledge? And knowing that, shouldn't it be FUCKING OBVIOUS that since AA is a common problem and antibiotics are EVERYWHERE, that some percentage of people will be misdiagnosed and treated with antibiotics? ESPECIALLY with this mental disturbance modern medicine has about ruling out appendicitis because of a made-up statistic called the "negative appendectomy rate"?

      I suspect that doctors want to masquerade their field as being more rigorous than it actually is by inventing all kinds of statistical tools and buzzwords to hide the basic fact that a lot of medicine is touch and go. The problem with making fancy statistics and graphs and computer models is that "garbage in, garbage out". I've started hearing doctors marveling that acute appendicitis cases have been going down in the last few decades.

      I propose that acute appendicitis is a constant in the population and the rate of diagnosis is going down, not the number of real cases.

      And given how easily the SYMPTOMS of AA are treated with antibiotics, and how "perplexed" the poor radiologists are by the five different possible positions and variable size of the appendix, would it not be more prudent to simply let ER doctors wait and see and make sure it IS acute appendicitis instead of ruling it out and and getting out the antibiotics bazooka?

      Here is the case of Patrick Roy, a popular hockey player in Montreal.

      http://www.cmaj.ca/content/cma...

      In his case, has was positively diagnosed with AA, but that's easy with a private team doctor that knows you well and is always around, isn't it? In any case, Roy was a hothead and refused surgery on account he wanted to play against the Bruins. The antibiotics firehose came out, and the symptoms went away, and Roy played hockey. Later the appendix came out.

      Now what happens to that appendix had it NOT come out? Can it scar over? Can it reinfect, presenting differently the second time?

      Why not?

      Anyways, here is what I think is cooking inside me

      https://www.mdmag.com/journals...

      I love this part

      "Although CT scanning is usually accurate in imaging a fluid-filled appendix, the appendix was often missed on CT scans for workup of coexisting conditions."

      You doctors should KNOW about the fucking appendix being difficult to visualize (for whatever reason. I don't know. I *do* know that I am unimpressed by the images I'

  2. Technology is hard. by Pascoea · · Score: 5, Informative

    Now they will have to bring down thousands of pages: that is what will happen, in my view. There is a medical disciplinary panel but Google have been the judge until now. They have decided whether to take a page down -- and why do they have that position?" Van Lynden said.

    It sounds like Van Lynden doesn't know how the internet works. Google can't "take down" anything. All it can do is remove references from its search results. I would love to hear an explanation for the technical aspects of how this would be done. Are Google's algorithms really that good that they can "de-list" certain websites but only for very specific search terms? What happens when/if this doctor gets put on the naughty list again? Are they required to de-list the next blog that people decide to comment on? This is very interesting from both a "free speech" (and yes, I realize this isn't a US story) and from a technical perspective.

    1. Re:Technology is hard. by vux984 · · Score: 3, Funny

      "It sounds like Van Lynden doesn't know how the internet works. Google can't "take down" anything. All it can do is remove references from its search results."

      And in 2019, getting google to remove references is pretty effective at removing something from the internet. Sure its there, but instead of being 3 clicks away from anyone who can spell your name its now in a disused lavatory in the basement with a sign on the door saying 'beware of the leopard'... or bing... but i repeat myself. :p

    2. Re:Technology is hard. by Scarletdown · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Even if Google complies, it is doubtful that DDG or any of the other search engines will do so.

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      This space unintentionally left blank.
    3. Re:Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally starting to feel Google should give these requests the link-tax treatment. Disappear all pages containing a requester's name, then direct all complaints to take it up with their MPs. "I am very sorry Quidditch Twiddlebottom is such a common name in the EU, but our hands are tied by a court order requiring us to disappear all pages referring to someone named that very name. Please contact your MPs and explain to them why they should oppose such ham-fisted tech-ignorant requests being granted and ask them to repeal the Right to Be Forgotten until they figure it out. Thank you."

    4. Re:Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where do you think DDG gets it's results from?

    5. Re:Technology is hard. by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      I heard they were based off of Bing.

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      This space unintentionally left blank.
    6. Re:Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not exclusively Google.

    7. Re:Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In short that's not true. You can get DDG to use Google to search via the g!, but they use many different sources of information to come up with their results.

      https://duck.co/help/results/sources

    8. Re:Technology is hard. by guruevi · · Score: 2

      They should just put up a list with all the requests to be forgotten and the links that were affected by them. Kind of like they do with DMCA but with more detail.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    9. Re:Technology is hard. by ron_ivi · · Score: 4, Informative
      DDG gets at least some of their results indirectly from Google.

      DuckDuckGo's sources include Yahoo(now Oath) and Bing. ( https://duck.co/help/results/s... ).

      And Yahoo gets their results from google. ( https://searchengineland.com/y... )

      And Bing gets results from google ( https://www.wired.com/2011/02/... )

    10. Re:Technology is hard. by thegarbz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It sounds like Van Lynden doesn't know how the internet works. Google can't "take down" anything.

      Actually it sounds like you don't know how the internet works. The theory and the practice are two different things. Just because something exists on the internet doesn't mean it won't fade into irrelevance when becoming delisted. The exception are items of continued interest and controversy. E.g. Delist The Pirate Bay from Google and after a few good years it would drop off the face of the earth, however if you keep talking about it in the media, then it would survive.

      Mind you continuing to talk about something in the media also makes it an item of public interest and thus wouldn't fall under the right to be forgotten. That last word is key: "forgotten" not removed, not blacklisted, just "forgotten".

    11. Re:Technology is hard. by thegarbz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Even if Google complies, it is doubtful that DDG or any of the other search engines will do so.

      The world's second most popular search engine is Bing. It has a 4% market share ... on a work day where people don't change defaults on their work computers.

      If Google removes something, there's a good chance of a population forgetting it existed.

    12. Re:Technology is hard. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      In this case the site is still up and listed on Google. It just doesn't come up for searches of that particular person's name.

      The right to be forgotten is quite specific and limited in scope.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    13. Re:Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this case the site is still up and listed on Google. It just doesn't come up for searches of that particular person's name.

      The right to be forgotten is quite specific and limited in scope.

      Not only that, it is limited to searches from European IP addresses, so proxy through a proxy on AWS in the US, and find out about your doctor.

    14. Re: Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So does Google now have to maintain a growing list of exceptions to it's search algorithm?

      I'm curious how this works in practice. Is there now an "office of exceptions" at Google who independently adjust search results?

      Even for a huge "genius" corporation like Google, this seems like it will eventually become an albatross for them, and also that mistakes will likely be made and then lawsuits will ensue. No?

    15. Re:Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All big search engines use google for their results.
      Even ddg, startpage, bing, etc.
      Bing and Yahoo might still do some spidering of their own, but ddg and startpage don't as far as I know.

    16. Re:Technology is hard. by coofercat · · Score: 1

      True. However, if DDG or anyone else gets an appreciable amount of the search market, they'll be asked to comply as well.

      The Right to be Forgotten might sound like a stupid bit of legislation made by people who don't understand the Internet. It might be those things, but it's actually pretty limited in scope, and understands that it's not a complete solution. If you want to research this doctor, it doesn't stop you from doing so. However, if you are like 99% of people on the planet and just 'google' stuff because 'that's the internet', then you won't get misleading information about them by doing so. The intention isn't to fully censor the Internet - it's to stop 'casual' misleading taking place.

      We can argue about intentions and actual results, streisand effects, collateral damage and the effectiveness of this legislation, but that's for another time/place.

    17. Re:Technology is hard. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      EU courts would spank them senseless if they tried that.

      Comply with the spirit of the law, don't try and find the fucking loopholes in it.

    18. Re:Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So a few in the know will get the information. How European of you.

    19. Re:Technology is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Google removes something, there's a good chance of a population forgetting it existed.

      Yep, so if you want to hold a grudge for long, keep your own archive. Can't trust google or others to keep history for you.

    20. Re:Technology is hard. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      But what if I do a Dark Web Triple Scan?

      Oh, and FU Experian

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  3. Good example of what is wrong by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a really good example of why the "right to be forgotten" idea is a really bad idea. Aside from issues of free speech, in any reasonable context, patients should have a right to know what problems or potential issues a doctor they have has had. One doesn't even need an American style strong free speech norm to see that this should be unacceptable.

    1. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Letâ(TM)s shoot him

    2. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Mal-2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At the same time, people who have been accused of one thing and subsequently "convicted" on a lesser count (or nothing at all) deserve to have the original charge properly tagged with the resolution of the case. A mere retraction after the fact is insufficient. It needs to be in plain view from the moment the original complaint is referenced.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    3. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know what would be a better resolution? If a search for your name points to the conviction of your prosecutor for misconduct. There's virtually no actual punishment of prosecutors ever for anything. Being accused and cleared is one thing. Knowing that the whole "well, we all know he was probably guilty but they couldn't prove it" stems precisely because prosecutors are allowed such zealous overreach without consequence is what's truly sickening.

    4. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's really the point and the right to be forgotten doesn't really address it because, despite what the law says, that's not a right. You can't just wipe all memory of an event from the internet and people's memory, it's just not possible.

      Yes, they can lean on companies to do things like remove it from the search results, but that only applies to companies that are bound to follow the law in that jurisdiction. It has no force outside of the EU, regardless of what they think or the law says.

      Google is somewhat vulnerable to this as it has a presence in the EU and as such must comply with any relevant laws, however, if they had no presence there, then there'd be fuck all that the EU courts could do about it, unless they could convince a foreign judge to enforce their verdict.

    5. Re:Good example of what is wrong by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Apparently the tribunal didn't agree. "The right to privacy is more important than for the public to find information on the judgment of a medical board"

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    6. Re:Good example of what is wrong by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apparently the tribunal didn't agree. "The right to privacy is more important than for the public to find information on the judgment of a medical board"

      Speaking as an American - I'd love to see a poll showing where European citizens fall on that question. I have a hard time believing they'd agree with the tribunal; but perhaps I just don't understand the average European.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    7. Re:Good example of what is wrong by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At the same time, people who have been accused of one thing and subsequently "convicted" on a lesser count (or nothing at all) deserve to have the original charge properly tagged with the resolution of the case.

      Why should that be the responsibility of a search engine?

    8. Re:Good example of what is wrong by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      ... but perhaps I just don't understand the average European.

      I think not. I have many European friends, and I am occasionally surprised by their lack of concern about individual rights that are taken for granted in America. They are way more willing to accept censorship to suppress "hate speech", burqa bans, etc.

      With such a wide gap in perspectives, conversations are almost pointless, so I just try to avoid talking about these issues with Europeans. Even with Americans, before discussing individual rights, I aways ask "What do you think of motorcycle helmet laws?"

    9. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Desler · · Score: 1

      I aways ask "What do you think of motorcycle helmet laws?"

      How about this response:

      You want to ride around without a hement? Then you pay any medical costs incurred in an accident completely out of your own pocket. Your "personal freedom" comes at the cost of complete personal responsibility for the consequences.

      But I can pretty much guarantee any rider whining out helmet laws wouldn't accept that responsibility and instead will think their insurance company should shoulder the costs.

    10. Re:Good example of what is wrong by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      They are way more willing to accept censorship to suppress "hate speech", burqa bans, etc.

      The events of World War II may have had a tiny impact on this... sure, Americans also fought in the war, but the American population as a whole had it pretty good (relatively speaking).

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    11. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am fine with motorcycle riders not wearing helmets. If injured, I want the doctor who treats my head injury after a car crash to have had experience with traumatic head injuries and motorcycles provide that experience. Helmet or not.

      Plus "no helmet" is good for organ donations. Not everyone is donor compatible with an easily disappeared Chinese national, so it is good to have a diverse set of bodies to draw from.

    12. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Torvac · · Score: 4, Interesting
      how is wrong data, fake/old news and lies freedom of speech?

      there are examples where people have been acquitted but still appear as murderers/rapist etc. in old articles and ofc in google results.

      "right to be forgotten" is shit, a duty and obligation to be correct should be there.

      a general right to be forgotten just makes it possible to get away with murder depending on your personal ressources.

    13. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Virtual_Raider · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The problem with your reasoning is that it effectively removes any possibility of the wrongdoer learning from the experience and moving on with their life. What good is the sanction if it never ends? For all we know, she did fuck up but also she did learn her lesson and is now a wonderful surgeon. Yes, it _may_ not be the case, but a search engine isn't the proper place to keep track of these things.

      --
      +Raider of the lost BBS
    14. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      It shouldn't, but that's the way the EU decided to implement it.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    15. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Jarwulf · · Score: 2

      So you're saying the enjoyed their experiences under the Nazis and Communists during the war and want to repeat it?

    16. Re:Good example of what is wrong by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      a general right to be forgotten just makes it possible to get away with murder depending on your personal ressources.
      No, you don't get away with murder. You get punished with 30 years or more jail time.
      You probably get released after 20 years because of good conduct.
      And 10 years after you left jail: your sentence is removed from public archives This is the right to be forgotten. And in front of the law is no difference if you stole as a teenager in a shopping mall or killed as an adult your neighbour. Can't be so hard to grasp.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    17. Re: Good example of what is wrong by houghi · · Score: 1

      I think this is a great example as to why the right to be forgotten is good. She is not in the same situation as the search result made you believe.
      Google already is able to decide I am not allowed to watch porn images by default, so it is clearly playing judge and juror.

      This is not like where /. Had to take down things against their will and all the rest stays up.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    18. Re: Good example of what is wrong by houghi · · Score: 1

      In Belgium there is not even a public database of you conviction.no mugshots to be made public. Every human deserves privacy, including criminals.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    19. Re:Good example of what is wrong by thegarbz · · Score: 0

      patients should have a right to know what problems or potential issues a doctor they have has had.

      Why should people have a right to judge others on past mistakes when professional assessments have determined they are capable and fit for service? This is the American style: "you did something bad and thus your entire life should be forever tainted and screwed up" thinking, rather than European style: "you did the crime you did the time and we've determined you should go on with your life normally" thinking.

      What's the point of having a regulatory body if you judge on public opinion?

    20. Re:Good example of what is wrong by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Informative

      How about this. Someone accuses you of sexual assault. It's proven to be false and you're cleared of all charges, but now, when you Google your name, details of your sexual assault accusation show up.

      Right to be forgotten lets you remove that because you're innocent. But the Court of Google means you're a sexual predator forever.

      Is that fair?

      How about something else - you get arrested for pot smoking when you're 17. When you turn 18, your record gets wiped. But the Court of Google indexed that so now everyone thinks you're a pothead because you got arrested, even though legally you're in the clear, and even worse, your record was actually expunged upon turning 18. But Google and the Internet doesn't care.

      Of course, no one would notice - a criminal background check will reveal nothing of either situation - the first was cleared, the second was expunged. But now someone does a simple Google and everyone is suddenly looking at you funny, thinking you're a pothead and sexual predator and why aren't you fired yet.

      People lose jobs because of their social media postings, which is why it's generally a good idea to go through what you post and clean it up. But while you can clean up your social media, you can't clean up what Google and the Internet have heard about you, even if it's no longer true. Imagine being denied a job just because of something you were accused of, but didn't do. Even a court of law says you didn't go it. But just because you allegedly did it, you did it.

    21. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually a pretty good read is proper translations of the ancient laws in Babylon.

      A lot of them are like "if someone accuses another and they are punished and it's found out to be wrong, the accuser will be punished harsher." Sometimes I wonder if humans were smarter thousands of years ago.

    22. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if a doctor systematically kills 20+ patients over the years, they deserve this information to be kept private so more victims can be killed?

    23. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody deserve anything, this is a fundamental right. When you look at the statistics, the US system seems not doing well to decrease the number of victims.

    24. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no suggestion here that the prosecutor was overreaching. Sure, there should be limits on their behaviour - especially when the legal code allows for plea bargaining and justice is far down the list of priorities - but you can't blame prosecutors for doing their job: advocating for the prosecution.

    25. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because they have decided to be in the business of choosing the best matching sites. If their definition of "best" includes "out-of-date, misleading", and that has a negative effect on society, then there's nothing wrong with society pushing back. Just like if any other service supplier was supplying poisonous goods.

      It's up to Google to decide how to make it work. Nobody is forcing them to provide search engine.

    26. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, Europeans are a very heterogeneous population. But it dumbs down very simply to: you have right BUT you also have duties. When your private property, you pretty do whatever you want. But in the public space, you have some duties: mostly you do not infringe over other people freedom and you do not put other people at risk.

      For the helmet, when on private property do whatever you want, but when on public space, we do not want to see your brain on the ground, we do not want you to put pressure on emergency services for otherwise minor accident (with an helmet).

      I always ask: "Why do agree children to see your brain on the road but tits on tv is the end of the world?".

    27. Re:Good example of what is wrong by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why should that be the responsibility of a search engine?

      Because the search engine is acting as an agent providing information about people, which is regulated by data protection laws.

      This problem was actually recognized back in the 80s when such laws first appeared. Databases often contained errors and people tended to trust the computer far too much, so the right to have corrections made was introduced and limits placed on the use of such data.

      Imagine if a credit reference agency had a massive black mark on your file that was a mistake. You would want it corrected, right?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    28. Re:Good example of what is wrong by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Europe has a different concept of freedom to the US.

      The US is very much focused on freedom from interference. The government can't stop you doing things. In Europe we have that too, but we also consider to right to certain things to be essential to be free as well. For example, someone without any education has effectively had their freedom severely limited because it's difficult for them to function and find happiness in the modern world, so education is a human right here and the government has a responsibility to provide it. More than that, the government must protect that right and can't allow parents to withhold education from their children.

      The quote you used is also somewhat incomplete. What the tribunal means is an old, out of date judgement that has been superseded. The medical board did in fact allow her to continue practising, but the site saying she was banned was not updated.

      So the balance here is between her freedom to pursue a career and earn a living as a doctor, vs. the public's right to find this old and misleading information. Of course links to the current judgement, and indeed to news articles about this case are all fine, because they make the current situation clear. The public will know that she made mistakes and is under supervision now.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    29. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Maelwryth · · Score: 1

      That would depend on how much insurance pays out on things like kidneys. One of the side effects of helmet laws was a drop in organ availability.

      --
      I reserve the write to mangle english.
    30. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who have grown up in small towns understand that the "global village" is a threat, not a utopia. Societies where one cannot get away from one's own past mistakes are very rigid and become inflexible. You might be aware of some stereotypes that apply to people from the country. I don't think "progressive" is one of them. The call of the cities is to a large extent rooted in the open societies they form, where reputation isn't as important as it is in villages. This allows for more risk-taking and adaptability. An indelible reputation that follows a person on the internet is not a good thing.

    31. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? You're being hysterical.

    32. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, doesn't this open everyone up to lawsuits? If I go see tbat doctor and she does the exact same mistake, can I not sure Google because they removed info and then Google says "sue the EU" and I can't, then I start a new site called YelpAboutFuckedUpDocs and the EU then has to have Google remove my site from their search results... On and on and on?

      Seems like a better solution would be to require a different top level result that clarifies the "blacklist" result. People need to learn how to judge what they read on the internet. Simply removing all "problem results" seems like a recipe for disaster to me..... But we'll see, maybe it will be used so judiciously that it isn't a big issue.

    33. Re:Good example of what is wrong by N1AK · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure on the right to be forgotten but you are missing it's claimed primary purpose.

      In America some content is illegal. Individual Americans may or may not agree with those laws but they exist and a content provider needs to adhere to them. In America's case because it is such a large market and so much of the infrastructure is based there or run by companies under that jurisdiction it means that the vast majority of casually find-able content conforms to American law. In Europe that isn't necessarily the case so the right to be forgotten was implemented to cover scenarios where content that isn't acceptable by their laws can be blocked; this is a trade off to handle the fact that getting content that is legal by, for example, American standards and hosted in America removed or updated can prove impossible.

      The above isn't intended to explain this individual cases merits; but if the information this site includes was judged to be inaccurate or misleading then this isn't as simple as European vs American free speech. Try living in American jurisdiction and posting false information about medical products or service providers who are also in the US and see how long your right to free speech protects you from considerable fines or even criminal charges.

    34. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would you know if the whole thing was arbitrated correctly if you don't have access to the original information. You have to trust authorities to not only get it right, but also not be corrupt when they can withhold critical information from you that prevents you from judging their actions. You are allowing people you shouldn't trust to make all the decisions without responsibility. I guess you've never had to debug code, because it always runs perfectly, no?

    35. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That just means your guilty and copped a plea. Sure, the 1/2% with a shitty lawyer who ... were conspirators instead of the ring leader.

    36. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      how is wrong data, fake/old news and lies freedom of speech?

      Because it happened. If you want to "correct" history and remove all the incorrect parts, that's censorship, plain and simple.

      Also, who gets to decide what's wrong/fake/lies? This is _exactly_ the storyline of 1984. Oceania has ALWAYS been at war with Eurasia! If you can control the past, and remove whatever the people in power consider inaccurate, you're quickly rolling towards a fascist state.

    37. Re:Good example of what is wrong by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Imagine if a credit reference agency had a massive black mark on your file that was a mistake. You would want it corrected, right?

      I would agree with that, but according to the article:

      The judge said that while the information on the website with reference to the failings of the doctor in 2014 was correct, the pejorative name of the blacklist site suggested she was unfit to treat people, and that was not supported by the disciplinary panel’s findings.

      So it's not about an outright error, it's that the data was presented in a way that implied something that may or may not be accurate.

      Rather than your straightforward example of an error on a credit report, it would be more like if someone had a website listing businessmen who had declared bankruptcy on some projects, and suggesting that they are bad at business. Now in reality occasionally bankruptcy is normal, that's why we have bankruptcy laws. So are you saying that such pages shouldn't exist, because pretty much any time you are privately drawing an implication from publicly available and accurate data you may be wrong or going too far?

    38. Re:Good example of what is wrong by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      What they are saying is that the fact that the web site is called "blacklisted doctors" and has that right at the top is rather misleading, given that she is on it but not blacklisted. So while it contains some factually accurate (if now out of date) information, the overall effect is very misleading.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    39. Re:Good example of what is wrong by stdarg · · Score: 1

      The above isn't intended to explain this individual cases merits; but if the information this site includes was judged to be inaccurate or misleading then this isn't as simple as European vs American free speech.

      Well in fact in this case "The judge said that while the information on the website with reference to the failings of the doctor in 2014 was correct, the pejorative name of the blacklist site suggested she was unfit to treat people"

      Try living in American jurisdiction and posting false information about medical products or service providers who are also in the US and see how long your right to free speech protects you from considerable fines or even criminal charges.

      I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure opinion is protected in the US, so if you posted somewhere, "Doctor XYZ is horrible (subjective) because he did ABC (accurate) so nobody should see him (subjective)" you'd be fine, but if you posted "Doctor XYZ is horrible (subjective) because he did DEF (provably inaccurate) so nobody should see him (subjective)" it's the DEF part that would get you successfully sued.

    40. Re:Good example of what is wrong by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Imagine if a credit reference agency had a massive black mark on your file that was a mistake. You would want it corrected, right?

      Sure I would. Unfortunately I have to go in person to get my free credit report because identity thieves have been so successful at stealing my identity that even over the phone they won't believe I am who I say I am. Hopefully when I do finally go in they will accept my original BC and SSN as identity, I still have both amazingly. *knockonwood*

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    41. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As one European, I support the right to privacy.

      (The doctor's misconduct is not forgotten it is merely not trivially searchable on Google. Rack up enough misconduct, and the doctor will loose the licence to practice medicine. This one incident was not enough though.) Also, the doctor can be looked up, if you have the patience for thumbing through actual paper.

      I support the right to privacy, because it applies to us all. Ill-maintained blacklists can be made for each and every profession. And not merely the professions; how about a blacklist for dating or for partying? Complete with all sorts of subjective detail? Have you done anything stupid in your life - perhaps while you were young? Do you want that to come up on searches the rest of your life? Or perhaps change your name at 25 and again at 40 to get away from such blacklists?

      I mentioned ill-maintained lists, and many of them will be. Some will mostly hold true information, some will hold any information anyone care to submit. Great for getting back at an ex, or for bringing down politicians. Nobody can be punished for "slander" if they are anonymous, and the site can be operated in another country to prevent raiding by cops.

    42. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US is very much focused on freedom from interference.

      In particular, interference done by the government? In Europe, we don't want interference by people/corporations either. The government is slightly better, because we elect it ourselves. I don't elect corporations, or anyone who operates a blacklist website which might mention me by name. Hence, I am happy to have government protecting my privacy from such entities.

      The free market doesn't solve all problems. It deals well with supply and demand, that's all. This may not be in your best interest when you're the product, and both sellers & buyers are others.

    43. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we were in the 80s and the auto loan agent told me that he called the credit agency, but there was a (erroneous) massive black mark on my credit and so could not approve my loan. I don't blame AT&T for the mistake.

    44. Re:Good example of what is wrong by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      but the American population as a whole had it pretty good (relatively speaking)

      "Relatively speaking" does not do justice to the words "pretty good".

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    45. Re: Good example of what is wrong by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      she did fuck up but also she did learn her lesson and is now a wonderful surgeon

      My dad was treated by an oncologist in Michigan for cancer. I'm sure he'll learn his lesson, but he should NEVER be allowed to practice again.
      https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10...

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    46. Re:Good example of what is wrong by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I'm sure everyone knows that a doctor currently practicing isn't completely banned from practicing, however history is important. If your surgeon has a history of malpractice with certain populations, it's important to know that, even if she is otherwise a perfect surgeon - if she has a history of poor treatment for your particular issues, I'd want to know.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    47. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Kjella · · Score: 1

      How about this. Someone accuses you of sexual assault. It's proven to be false and you're cleared of all charges, but now, when you Google your name, details of your sexual assault accusation show up. Right to be forgotten lets you remove that because you're innocent. But the Court of Google means you're a sexual predator forever. Is that fair?

      More like you'll be famous for being framed for sexual assault. Women complain it's hard to get rapists convicted because it's often a "he said, she said" situation, but proving an accusation is conclusively false is nearly impossible unless there's a straight up confession or there's video proof it didn't happen. The best 99.9% of falsely accused men can hope for is a finding of not guilty, which most will assume means where there's smoke there's fire and put you in the same boat as R. Kelly.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    48. Re:Good example of what is wrong by suutar · · Score: 1

      and if their definition of best is simply "most linked to", what then? (This is of course theoretical; it's been a long time since that was the only criteria Google used. But it seems like a reasonable question.)

    49. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who paid you to be so wrong?

    50. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are you fuckers always so worried about being accused of rape? What kind of rapey shit are you doing?

    51. Re:Good example of what is wrong by Hognoxious · · Score: 0

      For the helmet, when on private property do whatever you want, but when on public space, we do not want to see your brain on the ground, we do not want you to put pressure on emergency services for otherwise minor accident (with an helmet).

      It happened where? Sorry, you'll need to get a Uber.

      Said no ambulance dispatcher, ever,

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    52. Re: Good example of what is wrong by misnohmer · · Score: 1

      Sounds great on paper, however very impractical in real life. Imagine you wrote a comment here about someone being convicted of a crime, which was true when you wrote it. 20 years later the person is cleared of any wrongdoing. Who is responsible for going back and editing your comment? You, slashdot, your kids (if you died)? That doesn't scale.

    53. Re: Good example of what is wrong by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Google already is able to decide I am not allowed to watch porn images by default, so it is clearly playing judge and juror.

      Giving you a tool to turn on/off those images in no way makes them "judge and juror". The option is yours.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    54. Re: Good example of what is wrong by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      By EU rules, Slashdot would be responsible for the editing. I am incapable of doing so, as there is not and never has been a provision for editing comments once committed.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  4. doesn't really make sense by olsmeister · · Score: 2

    I'm not sure why anyone thinks they have a right to be forgotten, especially when other people have a right to know.

    1. Re:doesn't really make sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      She is so horrific that she was blacklisted by her peers, but Google thinks we don't deserve to know that.

  5. "Forgotten" is a bit of a misnomer here. by Mr.+Dollar+Ton · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is an exercise of the right to correct information, not of "the right to be forgotten". The claims are against websites that publish the incorrect information about the disciplinary action that is no longer valid. It is the same as a sentence which has been revoked is removed from your criminal record.

    1. Re:"Forgotten" is a bit of a misnomer here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "right to correct information" And who decides what information is "correct"? You can go after all the sites you want but Google doesn't control the content on every URL registered in their search engine. As it stands the internet is already 90% bullshit and 10% factual and since "opinions" have replaced "facts" so expecting Google to backstop the distribution of disputed content is never going to work. Peoples lives and reputations are being destroyed on a daily basis and this "right to be forgotten" is just another overreach by the EU who evidently have too much time on their hands and pump out new regulations on a daily basis.

    2. Re:"Forgotten" is a bit of a misnomer here. by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      Somehow it wasn't possible, apparently, to have sites reporting the original, 'full' suspension, to be 'more accurate', lead with the current 'conditional suspension', being more accurate...

      Hey, my first concern was that this would result in factual content being removed, insulating people from the genuine and predictable consequences of their actions. Is that happening here? At first glance, it seems not. But is this order going to force removal of all the original charges and/or disciplinary actions?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    3. Re:"Forgotten" is a bit of a misnomer here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's also a misnomer to say the information was incorrect. The person was suspended, this is a fact. That the suspension was lessened after the fact is important context but it does not invalidate the previous information.

    4. Re: "Forgotten" is a bit of a misnomer here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As it stands the internet is already 90% bullshit and 10% factual and since "opinions" have replaced "facts"

      And your plan is to watch it burn, eh?

  6. Does anyone have the most important information? by robbak · · Score: 1

    That is, the name of this surgeon?

    I consider 'right to be forgotten' in the same line as 'right to not be offended'. I.E., a 'right' that doesn't exist.

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
  7. Positive and Negative Rights Are Incompatible by Jarwulf · · Score: 1

    Negative rights of noninterference in how you choose to live your own life are fundamentally incompatible with positive rights of entitlement and accommodation where you make others give you certain things, treat you a certain way, and operate in a certain fashion. Following the later is no more being 'prorights' or 'for civil rights' than the former. Its simply choosing one set of rights over another set of rights. Inherently the more you go one way the less you go the other way. The best you can hope for is a balance of sorts between the two. Unfortunately it looks like the West is going full bore in one direction.

    1. Re:Positive and Negative Rights Are Incompatible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Goddamn you sound pretentious.

    2. Re:Positive and Negative Rights Are Incompatible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called intelligent dialogue, but Slashdot lost it somewhere around 2007...

    3. Re:Positive and Negative Rights Are Incompatible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But how does the publicizing the judgement in mass media or the Internet go along with "negative rights of noninterference in how you choose to live your own life" ?

      The justice system is designed to punish offenders through different means. Public lynching for the rest of your life isn't part of that judgement. You make an offence and once you finished paying for it, you are free to continue your life without any interference. But what do you do when there is interference - such as in this case ?

  8. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    I tried searching for this (on Google, first, before I had a duh moment, then on Duck Duck Go). All of the news stories seem to be based on a single Dutch news story with no additional information. Searching for Dutch court dockets is apparently hard when you don't speak Dutch.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  9. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by MightyYar · · Score: 2

    I found the case documents at the Dutch court website, but believe it or not they are all anonymized!

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  10. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bing?

  11. Sad that a doctor so incompetent... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that her fellow doctors agreed that she should be put in prison gets off with no punishment.

  12. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what are you going to do about it... get a tattoo?

  13. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Informative

    OK, got it. All this Dutch is killing me! According to this Dutch website, the doctor's name is Rita Kappel and the black list in question is here.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  14. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by guruevi · · Score: 1

    This article has more detail: https://www.villamedia.nl/arti...

    Her 'lawyer' (speciality in bad media disappearance consulting) had the case sealed and it remained unpublished until the decision was final. Even the "personal information authority" for the country does not agree with the surgeon or the judge since the surgeon still isn't fully cleared from her prior malpractice.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  15. Bullshit. It's a shot at ignorant Americans. by denzacar · · Score: 1, Troll

    This "bring down thousands of pages" line is a shot at bullshiting ignorant Americans (and maybe Brits too) - cause Netherlands is a civil law country.

    As such, one ruling of a court is nothing but one ruling by that court.
    It changes no laws, nor does it affect other cases anywhere in the land. Or the world.
    A precedent will get you no more than a cup of coffee. Provided you have the money to pay for it.

    See... Most of the world DOES NOT use a legal system created for illiterate lords who've inherited their lands from their illiterate dead parents, along with the job to dispense justice to local peasants.
    Nor the legal system which came out of that one, only now judges were illiterate local strongmen with guns, somewhere out on the "frontier".
    A system where a "hanging judge" makes the law, the rest of the state be damned.
    Most of the world thinks that's kinda stupid.

    https://www.economist.com/the-...

    Although common-law systems make extensive use of statutes, judicial cases are regarded as the most important source of law, which gives judges an active role in developing rules.
    For example, the elements needed to prove the crime of murder are contained in case law rather than defined by statute.
    To ensure consistency, courts abide by precedents set by higher courts examining the same issue.

    In civil-law systems, by contrast, codes and statutes are designed to cover all eventualities and judges have a more limited role of applying the law to the case in hand.
    Past judgments are no more than loose guides.

    When it comes to court cases, judges in civil-law systems tend towards being investigators, while their peers in common-law systems act as arbiters between parties that present their arguments.

    Oh an BTW...
    If the "law firm" is called MediaMaze and if it specializes in "Online reputation management", "Online PR" and "right to be forgotten"...
    It's a PR firm.
    And they are selling their spiel, hoping that either someone at Google will fall for it - or for free publicity for themselves, and possibly some illiterate potential clients from the US and UK.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    1. Re:Bullshit. It's a shot at ignorant Americans. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Most of the world thinks that's kinda stupid.

      Yeah, we have a taste of that in Louisiana.

      That must be why it's a state with such a high reputation for the rule of law.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Bullshit. It's a shot at ignorant Americans. by denzacar · · Score: 2

      If you'd read the link you provided you'd notice that the Louisiana "civil law" is akin to fruit juice with "at least 5% real fruit".

      The starting paragraph would have done the trick.

      Louisiana's criminal law largely rests on American common law.
      Louisiana's administrative law is generally similar to the administrative law of the U.S. federal government and other U.S. states.
      Louisiana's procedural law is generally in line with that of other U.S. states, which in turn is generally based on the U.S. Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

      Also, this:

      One often-cited distinction is that while common law courts are bound by stare decisis and tend to rule based on precedents, judges in Louisiana rule based on their own interpretation of the law.[22] This distinction is not absolute, though. Civil law has its own respect for established precedent, the doctrine of jurisprudence constante. But the Louisiana Supreme Court notes the principal difference between the two legal doctrines: a single court decision can provide sufficient foundation for stare decisis, however, "a series of adjudicated cases, all in accord, form the basis for jurisprudence constante."[23] Moreover, Louisiana Courts of Appeals have explicitly noted that jurisprudence constante is merely a secondary source of law, which cannot be authoritative and does not rise to the level of stare decisis.[24]

      I.e. In Louisiana they use of SOME aspects of civil law - but in a court which finds and treats common law as superior.
      Basically, worst parts of both systems.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    3. Re:Bullshit. It's a shot at ignorant Americans. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      So... no true Scotsman, then?

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Bullshit. It's a shot at ignorant Americans. by denzacar · · Score: 1

      Naah... Scots have the stupid common law system as well.
      Along with the belief that some people are simply better, being born with a title which makes the natural rulers of common peasants.

      Also, comparing Louisiana "civil law" system to a civil law one is a false equivalence.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    5. Re:Bullshit. It's a shot at ignorant Americans. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I made the comment because your original statement "Most of the world thinks that's kinda stupid." implied that "most of the world" follows civil law. When you look into it, though, "most of the world" has a mixed system - much like Louisiana. If Louisiana isn't an example of civil law... not pure enough... then you are restricting yourself to a handful of countries in Europe - and some of their colonies - that follow the German tradition.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  16. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by guruevi · · Score: 1

    The courts anonymized and sealed the records.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  17. Re: Does anyone have the most important informatio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go Dutch

  18. Great work! by robbak · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Now we hope this information gets more widely spread.

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    1. Re: Great work! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're pretty excited about the idea of trying as much as possible to ruin the life of a person who you don't know involved in a case that you don't know all the facts about. You seem like a real prick.

    2. Re:Great work! by thegarbz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Why? You feel like fucking up someone's life over 3rd party opinion?

      Hey everyone robbak one blew off a horse, we need to spread this widely. The fact that it's not real shouldn't stop us from spreading this news! The fact that the formal department of management of horse erectile function declares that he hasn't blown off a horse shouldn't stop us from spreading this news!

      That's what you're saying right?

    3. Re:Great work! by stdarg · · Score: 1

      That's incorrect, the analog here would be that you blew a horse, but you're listed on a website called "blacklisted veterinarians" with an accurate accounting of what you had done and when you did it. But you are not actually banned from continuing your veterinary practice, so a judge decides that "blacklisted" is not a fair title.

      So the question is, should people be able to find out that you blew a horse one time, and is the title of the website really what is dissuading people from seeing you or is it the fact that you blew a horse?

  19. When they own the information by Beeftopia · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "When the own the information, they can bend it all they want" - John Mayer, "Waiting on the world to change"

    Someone took ownership of this information certainly.

    IMO, patients ought to know about professional achievements or sanctions. Just like I wanna know a potential hire's criminal record. Because it directly impacts me.

    1. Re:When they own the information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is the information presented is incorrect or outdated.

    2. Re: When they own the information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm confident that if rumors surfaced that Beeftopia had cooties, you'd also be eager to have the rumors go away, especially if you do not, in fact, have cooties (even though everyone knows you do).

      Not sure about the details of this Doctor's case, but to suggest that it is always an error to curate an accurate state of knowledge seems absurd. Imagine the dump that Wikipedia would be if edits were disallowed.

    3. Re:When they own the information by Nocturna81 · · Score: 1

      The problem is the information presented is incorrect or outdated.

      No it's not. The site is amended to reflect the fact she got a slap on the wrist. All the dates are on there, including the one reversing the original verdict.

    4. Re:When they own the information by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      IMO, patients ought to know about professional achievements or sanctions.

      So why bother having a medical registration system if you're going by court of public opinion?

    5. Re:When they own the information by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      And to be clear, the tribunal is saying that patients can know about this. What they are concerned about is them knowing the truth, not some old and outdated information that is no longer accurate.

      As for a potential employee's criminal record, in Europe you have a right to know some of it. Convictions that are considered "spent" do not have to be declared. Serious crimes, or crimes for which the time limit has not run out (e.g. they are on probation) must be declared.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  20. Dr. Rita Kappel you say? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Informative

    So Dr. Rita Kappel was initially disciplined and her right to practice was suspended because of her postoperative care of a patient - but then her disciplinary action was altered to allow her to continue to practice. However the overall disciplinary action remains intact and on her record.

    Do I have those facts regarding Dr. Rita Kappel correct?

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Dr. Rita Kappel you say? by robbak · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sounds about right. Now she wants to restrict people accessing that information, so they can't make an informed decision about her competence before choosing to be operated on by her.

      --
      Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    2. Re:Dr. Rita Kappel you say? by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      OOOH, you guys are so busted, the EU internet cops are going to be on you like Hans Brinker on a silver skate! You're getting a boot up the ass - a wooden boot, of course.

    3. Re:Dr. Rita Kappel you say? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Indeed that seems to be correct. It appears that the site in question has been updated now so this specific case is somewhat moot, but the general principal stands.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:Dr. Rita Kappel you say? by zmooc · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's not true. There's a proper official white list (The BIG register) for all medical people in the Netherlands (and probably elsewhere too) that is specifically meant as a public register for these kinds of things; if you search for her, you will find a clear annotation describing what happened. She's not restricting people from accessing that information at all, she's merely requesting a doctor-shaming black list from removing her. What she's doing in this case is perfectly right, just and legal.

      Also note that she has made _one_ mistake. She does not seem to be an incompetent doctor with a history of incidents. Everybody makes mistakes. That's not sufficient to end up on such a list for the rest of your live at all. We'd probably not have any doctors left if that's how we did things...

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    5. Re:Dr. Rita Kappel you say? by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      Do I have those facts regarding Dr. Rita Kappel correct?

      Indeed, you do seem to have those facts right about Rita Kappel and her being disciplined for her postoperative care of a patient. Bravo!

    6. Re: Dr. Rita Kappel you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, she got prosecuted once. That suggests that she made so many mistakes that one was so blatantly obvious that the regulators had to react.

    7. Re:Dr. Rita Kappel you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      she's merely requesting a doctor-shaming black list from removing her

      What happens when every single accused person of the #metoo movement demands the same thing?

      Harvey Weinstein has been convicted of no crime. Should we force google to remove all references of his sexual misconduct?

  21. Google is not hosting any of that information! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the fuck, it's a search engine. They are not hosting any of the information. Sue the individual websites that host that information. Not Google.

  22. Let's not bother teaching history classes anymore by mark-t · · Score: 1

    Since anything that somebody doesn't like can be removed from visibility, if for some reason it is found to be politically incorrect or offensive to somebody.

    If history can be revised by a court whose decision is based entirely on moral values at the time and not upon what *actually* occured, there is absolutely no point to teaching it to anyone.

    And who gets to decide what is "history worthy" and what is not?

    Let future generations decide what is important for them to remember and what is not... we have an obligation to that generation, however, to record what has *ACTUALLY* happened, and to preserve that information for them, not just what happens to feel good or fair at the time.

    "Right to be forgotten" is just revisionist history with a PC agenda.

  23. Is this ruling to be "forgotten" too? by misnohmer · · Score: 1

    If performing a google search on the doctor yields the court's ruling, does that violate the ruling? Or is this some kind a secret ruling nobody can talk about but somehow they are supposed to know it so they can obey it?

    Or is there going to be a new website - here is a list of people who won "right to be forgotten" cases, and here are all their case details you're not supposed to link to?

  24. Re: Does anyone have the most important informatio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Barbra Streisand.

  25. Re: Does anyone have the most important informatio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's plastic surgeon Rita Kappel from the town of Zwolle, according to http://www.zwartelijstartsen.nl/

    (search for 2019 or "baron van Lynden", the name of her lawyer)

  26. Okay, so forget her. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Forget every page that mentions her name.

    Forget the page of every hospital and institution she works for.

    Let's see how much work she gets when she casts a shadow that erases every mention of her from people searching for medical options online.

  27. Anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone else read the headline as Dutch Sturgeon...?

    Wouldn't surprise me.

  28. Guilt by fake news by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The blacklist lists a 2-year suspension, with an update wayyyyy down the page indicating that the suspension was reduced, as noted in the OP. And you really have to read into the text to find this out.

    This comment stood out in the legal proceedings:

    "The Central Disciplinary Court has declared a number of complaints components to be (partially) unfounded and has imposed on the plastic surgeon the lower measure of conditional suspension for a period of 4 months with a probationary period of 2 years."

    So it seems that some of the original 9 complaints are unfounded, and this is a case of he said/she said, with a dispute of what actually happened.

    If we are really serious about combating fake news, then why shouldn't Google have to delist the biased and misleading blacklist, in favor of other more accurate reviews?

    I note that Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) complained that doing an image search of him came up with a photoshopped image of his head on a Nazi uniform in the top row. (source) Scott complained to Google and got no response, and only after asking his followers complain did the image get *somewhat* downranked. It's still there in the first page of image results.

    He points out that the image came from a twitter account with 15 followers:

    “Now, these are real pictures that people have ‘memed up’ on Twitter and somewhere else, but here’s the thing, if you click through to those pictures they are the least, smallest, most minor mention of me compared to everything I’ve been doing for years. So, I’m asking myself, and I’m gonna ask you as well, do you think given that – so one of these clicks through, one of the pictures of me wearing a photoshopped Nazi uniform, if you click through it goes to a fake Twitter account that’s pretending to be me that has only 15 followers.”

    Adams asked: “Do you think that a fake Twitter account that has only 15 followers would have enough followers that Google’s algorithm would pick that? Of all the pictures there are of me, there are a lot of pictures of me in the public domain, in articles. I was probably in 25 major articles last year alone, and this one little 15 user fake Twitter account is the fourth image that comes up?”

    It seems perfectly reasonable that people should start pushing back against Google's search manipulation, and the "right to be forgotten" seems to be a good first step.

    1. Re: Guilt by fake news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I note that Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) complained that doing an image search of him came up with a photoshopped image of his head on a Nazi uniform in the top row. (source) Scott complained to Google and got no response, and only after asking his followers complain did the image get *somewhat* downranked. It's still there in the first page of image results.

      So what you are saying is that Soctt Adams is calling for censorship and the suppression of the right of free speech in the United States of America?

      Are you willing to testify to this in open court?

      He points out that the image came from a twitter account with 15 followers:

      âoeNow, these are real pictures that people have âmemed upâ(TM) on Twitter and somewhere else, but hereâ(TM)s the thing, if you click through to those pictures they are the least, smallest, most minor mention of me compared to everything Iâ(TM)ve been doing for years. So, Iâ(TM)m asking myself, and Iâ(TM)m gonna ask you as well, do you think given that â" so one of these clicks through, one of the pictures of me wearing a photoshopped Nazi uniform, if you click through it goes to a fake Twitter account thatâ(TM)s pretending to be me that has only 15 followers.â

      Adams asked: âoeDo you think that a fake Twitter account that has only 15 followers would have enough followers that Googleâ(TM)s algorithm would pick that? Of all the pictures there are of me, there are a lot of pictures of me in the public domain, in articles. I was probably in 25 major articles last year alone, and this one little 15 user fake Twitter account is the fourth image that comes up?â

      Fake News is what I see from all the so-called journalists claiming that Google labelled Scott Adams as a Nazi. That said, how does one make a "fake" Twitter account?

      It seems perfectly reasonable that people should start pushing back against Google's search manipulation, and the "right to be forgotten" seems to be a good first step.

      Except the only claim of search manipulation that you have attested is for Scott Adams to have an image he didn't like dismantled.

      That means he is guilty of calling for it, and this alleged "Right to be Forgotten" is inapplicable anyway since he is being commented on by the picture, there is nothing forgotten.

    2. Re:Guilt by fake news by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 2

      > If we are really serious about combating fake news,
      > then why shouldn't Google have to delist the biased
      > and misleading blacklist, in favor of other more
      > accurate reviews?

      Because Google is not the source or offender. It's a neutral third party. If some article or site is libelous or defamatory, the proper course of action id to address it at the source. Do that, and it falls off the Google index the next time the original site gets spidered. Attacking Google instead is nothing more than going after the party with the biggest pockets. Plus, I'd argue that it displays blatant bias and discrimination on the part of the EU courts. When have one of these articles about "the right to be forgotten" EVER been about the original libel or defamation (Almost always published in EU newspapers or on EU sites.) being taken down? It's ALWAYS Google, or some other US company, that's under attack in these cases.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    3. Re:Guilt by fake news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we are really serious about combating fake news, then why shouldn't Google have to delist the biased and misleading blacklist, in favor of other more accurate reviews?

      We have a mechanism for that: defamation of character lawsuit. Did Google defame Dr. Kappel? Did Google provide factually inaccurate information? Does the site they link to provide factually inaccurate information?

      I note that Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) complained that doing an image search of him came up with a photoshopped image of his head on a Nazi uniform in the top row.

      See, and that is defamation of character, and Adams ought to have a case against Google. The reason he doesn't is because the government exempted big, powerful corporations like Google from such lawsuits.

      The government isn't interested in protecting your privacy or your free speech rights, which makes it foolish on the part of people like you to want to give them even more power that they can abuse even more.

      It seems perfectly reasonable that people should start pushing back against Google's search manipulation, and the "right to be forgotten" seems to be a good first step.

      No, it's a horrible first step. Google is a manipulative, deceptive, dishonest corporate behemoth. But you can't fix that by giving the government even more, ill-specified powers to police free speech, because Google will simply misuse those powers for their own purposes and direct them against their enemies.

    4. Re:Guilt by fake news by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      When you click on a Google search result, Google knows this because you're actually clicking a hidden Google link that redirects you to the real web site.

      So apparently 15 people follow Nazi Dilbert, but thousands to millions may have clicked on it, most probably wtffing or laughing rather than "right on!"-ing. This is how Google upranks search results by adding in the click rate as part of their uprank algorithm.

      Somebody has a patent on that but I wouldn't be surprised if Google bought it.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    5. Re: Guilt by fake news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See, and that is defamation of character, and Adams ought to have a case against Google. The reason he doesn't is because the government exempted big, powerful corporations like Google from such lawsuits.

      Nope, it is because we have a First Amendment which allowed the person who created the image to comment on Adams with an obvious spoof and not only that, a system of laws that point out that Google is not liable for content they did not create, but are simply presenting.

      Seriously! The Alien and Sedition Acts were unconstitutional and President Adams should have been slapped down like the criminal he is.

  29. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The story being, basically a weekend plastic surgeon that uses a rented theatre and cheap gig economy nurses in surgery, did a quick dirty, boobie deflation job. After sending the gig economy cheap surgery team home, who are too expensive and leaving the victim in the care of general nurse after the weekend surgeon wandered off counting the profits. Well the victim was not quite sealed up and was leaking, a lot, rather than put together a proper surgical team. The doctor sort of botched one up with the nurses available to get the victim done with as fast as possible, costing the surgeon money now and well, quite the awkward mess, all those amateurs in a room and after lots of bleeding and mess an hour and a half latter the patient sealed up.

    Going in for surgery, go with a surgeon who works in a real hospital and where you will have doctors and nurses of all sorts on tap. Go to a weekend hacker that rents an surgery by the hour and brings on gig economy party time surgical 'er' specialists, and is looking to make as much profit as possible, as in spend as little as possible and push the gig economy workers out the surgery door as fast as possible.

    When going in for surgery, ask which hospital and full time staff, don't go to the rental surgery and the gig economy workers, it's cheaper for a reason. That doctors special gig is https://www.drkappel.nl/ and https://www.drkappel.nl/, when it comes to inflato boobies she works the flip side, deflation. Runs a whole 'Institute' of medical practices web site (I'll bet it wants goggle search to remember that), when in reality a surgeon on the cheap, rented surgery and gig economy surgical staff the cheapest available, to maximise profits and good luck for the victims.

    Most people going to a surgery would expect the doctor and the surgical team to know each other well and be practised working together so as not to make mistakes and during and post surgery, a lot of resources accessible for problems, not to be left in the lurch, bleeding out.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  30. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

    If there is a law explicitly stating that there is "a right to be forgotten", then that right exists.
    Just in the same way as you have the right to own land.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  31. Do we really need a "how to google" manual? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Google provides a very clear and useful hint when it has removed results due to this "right to be forgotten" law. This is when you fire up the VPN to, say, the US and repeat the search, then do a diff between the results to find the interesting ones.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Do we really need a "how to google" manual? by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      Google provides a very clear and useful hint when it has removed results due to this "right to be forgotten" law. This is when you fire up the VPN to, say, the US and repeat the search, then do a diff between the results to find the interesting ones.

      Which is an extra step most people won't know to take and so a incompetent doctor is allowed to continue incompetently treating people because the right to privacy trumps a patient's well being.

    2. Re:Do we really need a "how to google" manual? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      If you can't be assed to take an extra step for your health and consider first results without cross references and cross checking sufficient to form an opinion ...

      Sorry, but I am no proponent of an internet with handrails for the mentally handicapped.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  32. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    I consider 'right to be forgotten' in the same line as 'right to not be offended'. I.E., a 'right' that doesn't exist.

    That's because you subscribe to the American style of court by public opinion. In Europe there's more of a philosophy that if someone has done the crime and done the time and been deemed fit to return to society then they should be considered as equal.

  33. and you are part of makign society worst by aepervius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    https://slashdot.org/comments....

    Look , TL;DR : you are basically a proponent of marking any people having been caught adulterous with a red brand on their forehead. This is exactly what you want. Before google and other search engine we all enjoyed a right to be forgotten, in other word a right to be able to correct errors, and become better. If you brand people forever , you effectively destroy their life. Maybe you are an american ? That would explain it, US society seem good on punitive action but not so much on rehabilitation, or prevention.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:and you are part of makign society worst by MightyYar · · Score: 0

      Found the European envious of working search engines.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:and you are part of makign society worst by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      In my hometown, there was once a rumor that a guy had sex with a cat.

      Virtually everyone 3-5 years older and younger than this man knew of the rumor.

      Despite the fact that it's been roughly thirty years, if you mention this guy's name in the presence of nearly anyone in the age range, they'll respond with a "meow".

      There is no right to be forgotten and their probably shouldn't be. There should be the right to dispute lies told about you.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  34. Right to free expression implies right to remember by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I forgot what I was going to write here in compliance with some European directive.

    J/K. I was going to opine that my right to free speech, as well as those of the patient(s) she fucked up on/with/in should be more important than her bullshit right to "be forgotten".

    Remind me not to move to Europe when America goes tits up.

  35. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So now you've shared the information here, this site needs to be blacklisted from Google as well?

  36. Re: Let's not bother teaching history classes anym by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What I don't understand is that Europeans seem to be quick to say "everybody deserves the right to be forgotten, even criminals."

    They are seriously saying if Hitler was alive today he deserves the right to get Google to remove WW2 and the holocaust?

    It doesn't make any sense if you think it through.

  37. It is not "that right" actualluy by Kartu · · Score: 1

    Right to be forgotten is about asking fucking companies to stop fucking remembering you.
    E.g. facebook to leave you alone, once you've decided you don't needed.
    A goddamn online shop to stop remembering you, just because you once ordered shit from them and forgot to uncheck "annoy me with all kinds of spam".

    In no way is the "right to be forgotten" about manipulating search results. This case has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

  38. Still punishing the messenger by AntisocialNetworker · · Score: 1

    Why does no-one look at punishing the originator of the fake news graffiti, rather than the wall on which it's written?

  39. I see lawyers are scumbags in NLs too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Love the lawyer's comment, now medical professionals in the Netherlands won't be judged on their ability to practice. Guess that's why they're paid the big bucks in America. Google could remove every listing they have in the Netherlands and it would be a minor footnote in their quarterly earnings report.

  40. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm Dutch. The blacklist clearly states the factual truth that she was conditionally suspended. It doesn't even list the initial full suspension that was overturned.

  41. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    She's easy to find. I just translated "black list of doctors" to Dutch and found plastic surgeon Dr Rita Kappel in Zwolle. The black list is published by SIN-NL = "Victims of iatrogenic negligence Netherlands".
    There's a lot of relevant background on the website, it's all in Dutch. The original complaints against her are about negligence in post-op care after removal of breast implants.
    They also note that the judge who ruled against Google, R.A. Dudok van Heel, is already on the "black list of judges" for his role in denying victims of the PIP breast implant scandal their rights.

  42. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by maestroX · · Score: 1

    OK, got it. All this Dutch is killing me! According to this Dutch website, the doctor's name is Rita Kappel and the black list in question is here.

    You missed something very important about this Dutch website,

    According to this article the judge himself is on a blacklist of this site due to previous ruling in favor of plastic surgeons, there is a conflict of interest here.

    The (online) blacklist itself is tested by law and allowed.

  43. Truth is Treason in the Empire of Lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do EU serfs honestly believe their occupational government parasites would go to such a doctor?

    Plutocrats and members of the occupational government go to good doctors.

    It's just the serfs that aren't allowed to know which doctors are incompetent.

  44. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The doctor is also Indian/black. Must be a coincidence this sort of things are happening. Coincidences are racist now.

  45. They have decided whether to take a page down -- and why do they have that position?" Van Lynden said.

    Because (political biases excepted) they are literally a search engine that just links to what people publish and talk about.

    And strangely enough, people publish and talk about medical professionals being disciplined.

  46. How? by sjbe · · Score: 1

    If we are really serious about combating fake news, then why shouldn't Google have to delist the biased and misleading blacklist, in favor of other more accurate reviews?

    A reasonable question. So how do we do this in something approximating real time with good accuracy? It's easy to say we should do it but HOW is a lot more complicated with a lot of sticky censorship and free speech and freedom of the press and civil rights issues. Even for private companies. How does one decide what constitutes good versus bad information without having editorial control like a newspaper? And how do you do this in an automated way? There is too much out there for Google (or any company) to have people reviewing all content.

    I note that Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame) complained that doing an image search of him came up with a photoshopped image of his head on a Nazi uniform in the top row.

    Adams publicly defended Trump's defense of white supremacists. That's how you get labeled a nazi and a white surpremicist. If he didn't like this then he shouldn't have publicly defended Trump's indefensible comments about them being "fine people". He's been a public figure long enough that he should know how this would play out.

    It seems perfectly reasonable that people should start pushing back against Google's search manipulation, and the "right to be forgotten" seems to be a good first step.

    I think the right to be forgotten stuff is a very blunt instrument that doesn't really get at the core problems.

    1. Re: How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Labeling anyone other than neonazis, a nazi, is woefully ignorant. Scott Adams is not one, no matter how hard they try to twist it.

      The fact that you agree that Scott Adams should be labeled a nazi, is symptomatic of this very problem.

      You completely diminish the true nature of how bad they were by throwing this label around over your political opposites.

    2. Re:How? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      If we are really serious about combating fake news, then why shouldn't Google have to delist the biased and misleading blacklist, in favor of other more accurate reviews?

      A reasonable question. So how do we do this in something approximating real time with good accuracy? It's easy to say we should do it but HOW is a lot more complicated with a lot of sticky censorship and free speech and freedom of the press and civil rights issues. Even for private companies. How does one decide what constitutes good versus bad information without having editorial control like a newspaper? And how do you do this in an automated way? There is too much out there for Google (or any company) to have people reviewing all content.

      ...

      It seems perfectly reasonable that people should start pushing back against Google's search manipulation, and the "right to be forgotten" seems to be a good first step.

      I think the right to be forgotten stuff is a very blunt instrument that doesn't really get at the core problems.

      A blunt instrument would be a 10% of your yearly revenue fine for propagating false statements as facts.

      And knowingly propagating false statements as facts effectively what Google is doing there - the facts are the update, the original should have been down the page in small text for reference only, if at all. The fact that they had both sets of data indicates they purposely wanted to push the false narrative.

      On second thought, 5 or 10% of yearly revenue as a fine may not be unwarranted in that situation at all - it would certainly get their attention to fix these issues.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    3. Re: How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, for fuck's sake.

      Google didn't label Scott Adams a Nazi. Scott fucking Adams isn't even on the fucking radar of any human being at Google. Do you seriously think Google manually decides the search results for stale 1980s cartoonists?

      Scott Adams said some idiotic shit that caused other people (NOT GOOGLE) to COMPARE him to Nazis and fake a Nazi-uniform meme under his name.

      Google automatically picked up on the fact that an account was claiming to be Adams and linked that to his name. It probably didn't count the account's followers because that probably WOULD require somebody to do manual programming, which nobody would do because large numbers of Twitter followers are mostly fake and are therefore a shit quality metric for a link (in fact, if the algorithm did automatically start using followers, you'd probably be well advised to manually tell it NOT to). It probably did notice that the account claimed to be his own, which would have been a good reason to give it a higher rank. It probably got additional rank because it was linked to uncommon terms and concepts that generate a lot of interest. Unlike 25 identical cookie-cutter articles about cartoon history or whatever.

      If Adams has a beef with anybody here, it's Twitter for letting people impersonate him. Although the name "Scott Adams" isn't exactly that rare and I don't know how even Twitter would be supposed to know who was claiming to be which "Scott Adams".

    4. Re:How? by Hizonner · · Score: 1

      And knowingly propagating false statements as facts effectively what Google is doing there

      Horseshit. The only "fact" Google is claiming is that certain words and links appear in particular places and are associated with certain other words and links in ways that often tend to indicate relevance. That's all Google knows about anything anyway.

    5. Re: How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Policing those who can be labeled as a Nazi. Sounds just like a Nazi.

    6. Re: How? by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1, Insightful

      As the saying goes: "He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas"

      There's an easy way to not be mistaken for a Nazi: Don't do Nazi-like things. And don't stand with those who do. If you're of the opinion that Nazis are "very fine people", then you're doing the latter.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    7. Re:How? by dcw3 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you read the article you linked to, it points out that Adams correctly states that Trump wasn't referring to the supremacists, but to people who were pro and anti statue. So, you're doing exactly what Adams points out...taking it out of context.

      “I mean, my favorite example is Charlottesville,” Adams said. “When there was a protest about pro- and anti-statues and the president said that there were fine people on both sides, that was reported as he says there were fine people in the racist group, you know, the white supremacists.” “That wasn’t really the context. The context was pro-statue, anti-statue,” Adams continued.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    8. Re: How? by djinn6 · · Score: 2

      You're making the association fallacy. Nazis breathe air just like you. Are you a Nazi too?

      Last I checked Scott Adams is not interested in killing all Jews or invading Poland.

    9. Re: How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And people, other than Adams, noted the inability of Trump to articulate a statement which condemned the people who are not so fine, and pointed out Trump's own history of racism, bigotry, and intolerance, along with pretending not to know who David Duke was, not to mention association with people like Steve King and Steve Bannon, but heaven forbid Adams show some recognizance of the foibles of the Birther-in-Chief. Nope, not gonna do it.

      Face it, he's become an apologist, and that does lead to criticism and condemnation. Hitch your wagon to the horses running off a cliff and people will assume that is where you wanted to go.

      Bye bye American Pie.

    10. Re:How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...riiiiight, entirely out of context. *eye roll*

    11. Re: How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah. He only goose steps with the Nazis.

      Fuck you and your dumb arse fucking bullshit comment. You are a goddamn moron.

    12. Re: How? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Last I checked Scott Adams is not interested in killing all Jews or invading Poland.

      No American could possibly do that.

      They don't know where Poland is.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:How? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      And knowingly propagating false statements as facts effectively what Google is doing there

      Horseshit. The only "fact" Google is claiming is that certain words and links appear in particular places and are associated with certain other words and links in ways that often tend to indicate relevance. That's all Google knows about anything anyway.

      Is it horseshit that Google chooses to promote secondary non-official sites over official sites? Why no, it's not. It's not a flaw of their algorithm either, but a feature that allows them to avoid accountability. It's something that's bugged me for years about their search results, ever since shortly after they went public. The "page rank" algorithm I think is more tailored to "money making" than "correct results", but we'll never know as long as that algorithm is kept behind closed doors.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    14. Re:How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you expect a computer to know which one is the "official" site? In the Adams case, the Twitter feed he was complaining about actually claimed to be his own.

      Please provide pseudocode for reliably distinguishing real "official" sites from intentionally adversarial ones.

      After you do that, you can explain why "officialness" is a good metric of "correctness" to begin with. Specifically, explain why it's a better metric than what other people have actually found useful enough to visit and link to. Lots of "official" sites are just useless shilling for whatever. If I want to find out about North Korea, I'm not going to waste much time on the "official" site.

    15. Re:How? by Hizonner · · Score: 1

      Is it horseshit that Google chooses to promote secondary non-official sites over official sites?

      That's irrelevant and you're moving the goalposts. They did not "propagate false statements as facts".

      They said, in effect, "Our algorithm thinks that this page is probably relevant to what you searched for". No claims were made about anything being a fact. They're displaying what comes out of a program that tries to guess what people are looking for or will want to view. That has nothing to do with factualness.

      If you searched for Peter Pan and they gave you the "official" book, would you claim that they'd presented it as fact that you could fly around and fight pirates if you just stayed young?

    16. Re:How? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I'd say that sites with domain names that match your search terms and listed as being owned by the owners of trademarks used in the domain names should be listed over sites that are not. In fact, obviously misspelled domains should most likely suffer huge down rankings or even be banned outright if they're engaging in fraud or libel. It's a thought, anyways, and not one that Google can simply dismiss since they are already managing what sites make the rankings through what appears to be arbitrary human intervention. We just don't know because they keep it private.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    17. Re:How? by GonzoPhysicist · · Score: 1

      you can't separate the statue out as if it wasn't a monument to white supremacy. Those protesters weren't "pro-statue" they were pro-racism

      --
      horror vacui
    18. Re:How? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Were you there? Did you talk with them? I assure you that there are plenty of people who are pro-statue that are not in any way racist.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  47. Re: surgeon's name not Dr. Streisand by FlaSheridn · · Score: 3, Informative

    “Rita Kappel from Zwolle”: https://translate.google.com/t...

  48. So now, history is whatever we wish it had been? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    In Soviet EU, history book have looseleaf pages! Is great accomplishment of Brussels Politburo!

  49. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    This "coincidence" is more indicative of your bias than it is of anything else. If you scroll through the blacklist of doctors you will see that she in fact stands out complexion-wise.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  50. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You kind of make it sound like the patients are idiots for not going to a reputable hospital, but the situation is a bit more nuanced than that. Kappel's patients are often referred to her by a general practitioner, because the general practitioner feels an operation is necessary which the regular hospitals don't want to perform, particularly the removal of certain silicone breast implants.
    There's a bit of a controversy about some (by no means all) silicone breast implants. The mainstream medical opinion, which the hospitals seem to be following is that they're all safe and cannot cause health problems, excepting possible when they get damaged by trauma or extreme age (of the implant). However, there are quite a few general practitioners and other people who went to university and got a medical degree just like the other doctors, who opine that certain low-quality implants can cause various health problems.
    I know next to nothing about medicine. I don't know who's right. So I can well imagine that when you're a regular woman and you're getting referred to Kappel by your general practitioner, you're going there under the impression that the operation will benefit your health and will be conducted professionally.

  51. Pyrrhic Victory by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    This win is a pyrrhic victory because it doesn't cover the content of the websites themselves, it simply removes them from one search engine. People could always choose to visit the most commonly used review sites like Angie's List or Yelp. In the US, consumers are protected by law against corporate backlash when using these sites to leave negative reviews. The old adage, "You cannot please everyone" applies. It sucks when some up tight consumer is upset because he or she wasn't given a happy ending and write a bad review.

  52. Knee Jerk by Shaitan · · Score: 0

    ""Now they will have to bring down thousands of pages: that is what will happen, in my view. There is a medical disciplinary panel but Google have been the judge until now. They have decided whether to take a page down -- and why do they have that position?" Van Lynden said."

    I know the knee jerk reaction here is "negligent doctors having their crimes erased, rawr rawr rawr" but really the guy is right. The court of public opinion is a terrible place. We've all become armchair experts with information at our fingertips. Sure, you'll read about what a doctor did and form an opinion based on what seems reasonable to you and watching the good doctor and house m.d. but the truth is that you and I won't actually know what we are talking about. It is a large and complicated field. How is this any different than dealing with a non-technical manager who knows just enough to be dangerous?

    Not to mention that Google and the other tech giants have far too much power as it is. Maybe we need to reform medical review but the answer is not the court of public opinion and it most definitely is not for Google or the tech companies to be the gatekeepers.

    1. Re:Knee Jerk by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      Modded down "no I'm all knowing" or just "What this guy is saying is really clashes with my opinion?"

      Neither of those are valid moderation criteria.

  53. Not Google's fault, it's the place LINKED TO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article about her should be changed. At the one site it's at.

    Don't fuck up our search engines!

  54. Defending nazis by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The fact that you agree that Scott Adams should be labeled a nazi, is symptomatic of this very problem.

    At no point did I say he should be labeled a nazi. I said that he shouldn't be surprised that he was labeled one. If you defend Nazis anywhere beyond defending their constitutional right to free speech you should darn well expect to be considered to be one. Might not be fair but it's reality. Adams tried to defend WHAT they said when he should have stopped at defending their right to say it.

    You completely diminish the true nature of how bad they were by throwing this label around over your political opposites.

    If you fail to condemn Nazis and white supremacists then you de-facto are condoning them. There is no middle ground here and you are picking a side either way. Siding with Nazis isn't far removed from being one. Most conservatives/republicans clearly are NOT white supremacists but there are far too many who are. They are not "fine people" and trying to spin or nuance such statements is to support them. To defend the protesters beyond their constitutional rights is to side with them. Even the ACLU would (and has) defended their free speech rights but defending what they say is much different than defending their right to say it. Adams (and Trump) failed to recognize this difference.

    1. Re:Defending nazis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you defend Nazis anywhere beyond defending their constitutional right to free speech you should darn well expect to be considered to be one. Might not be fair but it's reality. Adams tried to defend WHAT they said when he should have stopped at defending their right to say it.

      Except he didn't defend Nazis or what the nazis said - so the conclusion doesn't apply. Read the page linked to. apparently, there were "good people on both sides". And "blame on both sides".

      Remember, it wasn't nazis against antifa people. It was pro-statue people and anti-statue people. Sure, there were nazis on the pro-statue side - but they were not necessarily the good people on that side!

      So both sides had their good people - moderate reasonable folks that did or did not want that statue. No need to be nazi to want the statue standing. No need to be antifa to want it taken down.

      Both sides had some maniac haters too. Perhaps the nazis were the worst of those - I have no idea. But neither side was maniacs only.

    2. Re: Defending nazis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, Adams has defended them specifically, but check it out, even by defending constitutional rights you can be charged as an apologist.

      Just ask lawyers who have defended accused criminals.

      Let me know when you speak in their defense.

  55. Some snowflake got offended by reality. Again. Sad by denzacar · · Score: 0

    Ah well... I still got plenty of copy/paste left from the last time that happened. Cause it's infinite.
    Unlike mod points.
    Anyway...

    This "bring down thousands of pages" line is a shot at bullshiting ignorant Americans (and maybe Brits too) - cause Netherlands is a civil law country.

    As such, one ruling of a court is nothing but one ruling by that court.
    It changes no laws, nor does it affect other cases anywhere in the land. Or the world.
    A precedent will get you no more than a cup of coffee. Provided you have the money to pay for it.

    See... Most of the world DOES NOT use a legal system created for illiterate lords who've inherited their lands from their illiterate dead parents, along with the job to dispense justice to local peasants.
    Nor the legal system which came out of that one, only now judges were illiterate local strongmen with guns, somewhere out on the "frontier".
    A system where a "hanging judge" makes the law, the rest of the state be damned.
    Most of the world thinks that's kinda stupid.

    https://www.economist.com/the-...

    Although common-law systems make extensive use of statutes, judicial cases are regarded as the most important source of law, which gives judges an active role in developing rules.
    For example, the elements needed to prove the crime of murder are contained in case law rather than defined by statute.
    To ensure consistency, courts abide by precedents set by higher courts examining the same issue.

    In civil-law systems, by contrast, codes and statutes are designed to cover all eventualities and judges have a more limited role of applying the law to the case in hand.
    Past judgments are no more than loose guides.

    When it comes to court cases, judges in civil-law systems tend towards being investigators, while their peers in common-law systems act as arbiters between parties that present their arguments.

    Oh an BTW...
    If the "law firm" is called MediaMaze and if it specializes in "Online reputation management", "Online PR" and "right to be forgotten"...
    It's a PR firm.
    And they are selling their spiel, hoping that either someone at Google will fall for it - or for free publicity for themselves, and possibly some illiterate potential clients from the US and UK.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  56. RateMDs by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

    https://www.ratemds.com/ is far better than Yelp. Looks like they don't operate in Europe.

    They should.

  57. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ewww - a boobie deflation specialist? What has the world come to? Seems we need new kinds of blacklists; for people who would consider committing such atrocities - as well as those who request them.

  58. Actually in that case by Solandri · · Score: 2

    The proper remedy would've been for Scott Adams to ask Twitter to revoke the account, or at least get them to change the picture. You have a right to control how your own likeness is used. That twitter account was clearly violating it by using a photoshopped picture of him.

    Google had nothing to do with it, and was in fact instrumental in helping him locate this violation of his personality rights. Unfortunately he then tried to shoot the messenger instead of tackling the root of the problem.

    That's really the fundamental problem with the way this right to be forgotten is being implemented. Search engines like Google are merely the messenger. Forcing them to remove search results doesn't remove the bad information from the web. Unless you go after the source of the bad info and force them to fix it (or get the host to remove the site/account), you're just just trying to make the problem go away by sticking everyone's head in the sand.. Next up, we will solve world hunger by banning the press from reporting on it.

  59. Horrifying by bigdavex · · Score: 1

    I'm horrified that the right to be forgotten is a thing anywhere.

    The right to free speech is the most fundamental right to Americans.

    --
    -Dave
  60. Re: Nazis won EU years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Try to get a more modern frame of reference grandpa!

  61. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >In Europe there's more of a philosophy that if someone has done the crime and done the time and been deemed fit to return to society then they should be considered as equal.
    I am fucking tired of a certain type of privileged middle/upper class people talking in the name of all of us Europeans in places like slashdot.
    It's not an European philosophy to protect criminals it's a ruler class one. In France when we abolished the death penalty the majority of the people were still in favor of the death penalty, and as recently as 2015 people would still bring the death penalty back if they could vote through a referendum on that issue :
    https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2015/05/08/les-francais-juges-plus-favorables-a-la-peine-de-mort-qu-en-2014_4630334_3224.html
    It's just one of many examples. No, the European peoples are not in favor of censoring speech, are not in favor of hiding someone's misbehavior and criminal past, are not in favor of lenient prison terms that releases criminals early for the idealistic sake of "returning them to society", are not in favor of abolishing the death penalty and simply do not empathize with the propaganda bullshit you spread to americans making them believe that our people are somehow inherently different from theirs culturally when it plain isn't true.
    We do not have a real democracy in European countries but a tyranny. Americans still have a government that is beholden to the will of the people and that is why they have laws that goes against your upper class values. The american upper class has the same views as you do, if the US were ruled by the deep shits in San Francisco's silicon valley it would resemble current Europe.

  62. Mixed Feelings by dcw3 · · Score: 1

    So, I understand the position that when someone screws up, and has paid their penalty, they should be allowed a chance to move on with their life. I get that. And I know some people will and yet, the odds are mostly against them doing so. Let me give you an example...

    The oncologist my dad saw was tried and convicted a few years ago for fraudulently diagnosing people with various cancers. He's not likely to serve again, but say that he were able. Should I, as a consumer have to be a test case for someone just out of prison, and not have the right to know the history of that scumbag? Yeah, I have some strong personal feelings because he's part of the reason I lost my dad.

    Most snakes will remain snakes.

    --
    Just another day in Paradise
  63. Re:Does anyone have the most important information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This comment deserves a higher score.
    I can help a little with the de-anonymisation: the name of the surgeon is Kappel, the procedure was the removal of breast implants and the complication was possibly preventable post-operative bleeding.
    The original complaint by the patient was about the lack of organisation of the clinic leading to deficient post-operative care and friction when scheduling a follow-up operation.
    In an initial court case the judge's verdict was a suspension, but a higher court judged that this judgement was too severe and the suspension was made conditional with a grace period, allowing the surgeon to continue her practice.
    The current right-to-be-forgotten judgement mostly centres around the following points: the blacklist doesn't fully represent the situation, an official registry already exists listing the surgeon's conditional suspension, the blacklist is unrepresentative in the sense that some people who deserve to be on a blacklist aren't included while on the other hand some people on the blacklist have never even been sanctioned, and perhaps weighing most heavily, when people search for the surgeon the blacklist will be the first thing that turns up and for people the word blacklist has a relatively well-defined meaning and there's no way to see from the search results that there are serious issues with this list.
    All in all, it turned out that the situation is a lot more nuanced than I originally assumed.