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Ask Slashdot: Is It Ethical To Purchase Electronics Products Made In China?
dryriver writes: A lot of people seem to think it's O.K. to buy electronics made in China. We get to buy products considerably cheaper than we otherwise would, and China by all accounts is growing, developing, and modernizing as a nation due to all the cool stuff they now make for the world. There is only one problem with that reasoning. 21st Century China has an atrocious human rights record, and almost all human rights watchdogs report that China is becoming more and more repressive each year. Freedom House put it this way in 2018: "It's worth noting that, in its attitude toward political dissent, the Chinese Communist Party has proven much harsher than the old Soviet regime of the Brezhnev era. Modern Chinese sentences are longer, the prospects for early release are far worse, and the Chinese authorities are generally unmoved by pleas for leniency from foreign diplomats." Basically, consumer dollars from around the world are not gradually creating a gentler, freer, more prosperous and more modern China at all. They are making the Chinese Communist Party richer, stronger, bolder and more aggressive and repressive in every respect. To the question: knowing what the human rights situation is in China, and that consumer dollars and euros flowing into the country from abroad is making things worse, not better, is it at all ethical to buy electronics or IT products manufactured in China?
gonna keep doing it though because my life is really just a huge list of accidents anyway
Remember when America made things?
Yeah, neither do I, but my parents keep talking about it.
20 years late question.
The US is the #2 manufacturing nation on the planet.
>"Is It Ethical To Purchase Electronics Products Made In China?"
Here are some reply questions: Do we even have a choice? Exactly what can I buy that isn't made in China? What is the proposed solution? Ban imports from China? Is THAT "ethical"? Drive prices up so high on products that poorer people here can't afford to buy anything? Is THAT "ethical"? Is it "ethical" to try and interfere with another sovereign nation's political and operational process? Even if we restricted trade based on "ethicality", how effective would that be? (We are far from their only market) And how much influence would we THEN have? Is there some difference between electronics/IT and any other products we buy from China? (Other than perhaps spyware, which has nothing to do with human rights inside THEIR borders).
For huge numbers of end consumers, there's not much choice. With wage stagnation and general costs of living generally increasing, the cheap Chinese-made thing is all they can afford. If there even is an option made somewhere else. Assuming the other options aren't made by companies being just as exploitative.
The real question should be, "is it ethical for corporations to outsource all their manufacturing to China?"
I can count the number of American products I bought in the past five years on that many fingers. I'm willing to bet it's the same for you. Currently, #2 means we still have one factory left, somewhere. And there's another one we could get running in a week if it weren't cheaper to buy shit from China.
Pretty much this, there really isn't any alternative unfortunately.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
isn't that part of the question, do you try to buy local/US made?
i do but its not always available even at a higher cost. and cost is part of the real equation. Not every one has the luxury to search for American made products, even the ones that are just packaged here.
can't talk about manufactured in China without talking about job loss or income inequality.
we must buy cheap because we can't afford anything more.
I'm really trying my best to avoid Made in China.
Need labelmaker? Got a 1977 Dymo 1570 embosser for almost spare change. I'm not giving China (or Dymo) a red fucking cent. Refills? I buy vintage from ebay. Seriously, a few 9' rolls should last a lifetime.
Somehow I lost my 30-year old Stanley measuring tape. Instead of getting one from Home Depot (made in China) I got an old Powerlock II from Ebay. Works fine.
Need an umbrella after the handle on my Totes went to shit (and the "warranty replacements died like that too")? Bought a Fox, made in England. I'm not giving China (or totes) a red fucking cent. So what if it cost 4x what a Totes costs. It'll last 4x longer.
Where they got me is the phones. Or "new" things. But if there's even a remote chance I can get Thing X that's old and made anywhere but china, I'll buy it.
It's not really just Fuck China, it's more "Fuck the Companies that Manufacture in China, are based Here and don't even pay taxes."
That's what voting with your wallet means. It would've been easier to get these things New, but no. Fuck 'em.
I would like to think more people are thinking like this. SOme of the folks I work with do. Some of my friends do too.
If you can afford it, don't buy China. Seriously. Don't. Fuck the companies who manufacture in China where it hurts them.
This is not for everyone. Most people want it NAO NAO NAO DAMMIT! WAAAH! Fuck that. Patience is rewarded with sweet things.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
By European/Canadian standards you make the same argument that it is unethical to purchase products from the US where workers are paid below-poverty wages, may not have access to health care and can be fired for disagreeing politically with their employer, plus some types of torture are deemed ok etc. So should we all stop buying each other's products or should we accept that the best way to change another's opinion is through leading by example and discussion rather than by refusing to talk/trade with them?
Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has remained the same for the last 50 years. We shifted from labor intensive to capital intensive manufacturing. Automation has lowered the number of jobs in this sector. America is still a manufacturing powerhouse.
This. Further, we've never had fewer manufacturing jobs decade over decade, though it's fallen as a percentage of jobs as the country has grown.
It's mostly consumer goods that are made overseas, because US consumers mostly want cheap instead of good (though the story is reversed for cars). But there are many industries beyond consumer goods.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I think the poster should take the log out their eye, because the US is no better! Massive amounts of homelessness, 50% of bankruptcies due to healthcare costs, something that is considered a basic human right in the rest of the western world. MUCH higher prison population per capita than any other country. The government is literally stealing social security. Gerrymandering making elections all but a foregone conclusion. Voter suppression that isn't very different than ballot box stuffing that happens in Russia. I think this is the single stupidest post ever on slashdot.
Everyone is living in a personal delusion, just some are more delusional than others.
Uhm, there are a lot of things going on in China that's fsck up.
For example:
China's hidden camps
Organ harvesting in China
Mass sterilization in China
Just go to google and start typing china forced to see the common theme.
--- Reality doesn't care about your opinions, it happens anyway and if you are in the way you'll get squished.
Saying "... that is an internal Chinese issue" is a key point of discussion. That number is about 1/5th of the entire world's population. To ignore 1/5th of humanity and how they're evolving is an enormous mistake.
The "eastern" point of view is becoming much like the "western" point of view, with onerous twists, like mass speech control, and enormous population shifts. Add to this, hundreds of thousands of encamped Western Chinese Muslims. Huge military growth. Ancient unsolved problems, like Taiwan and the madness of Tibetan sovereignty.
The value of life is much different than the "western" legacies. Those western cultures decimated Africa, held huge pogroms for the past millennia, and have polluted and fouled the planet. The Chinese are just catching up to western mistakes, and learning how to amplify control for party success.
There is no "we are at odds with". The planet is very small. You can fly anywhere in about a day. Radio, satellites, the Internet, all link us together. But there is also a common morality that should link us together, and we don't really think about that. Instead, it's the job of most politicians to factionalize us and make us feel our tribal urges, fattening military budgets, and scraping the cream for the kleptocrats. The Chinese face the same wealth disparities as westerners face. Their freedom is questionable and freedom/liberty are measured in ways that thinkers agree upon.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
i do but its not always available even at a higher cost. and cost is part of the real equation.
This is something I often run into. For example, take the ubiquitous smart RGB LEDs like the WS2812 or APA102. They're great little devices that cost 15 cents or so and very useful for a lot of applications, but no one in the U.S. makes a comparable product at even 10 times the price, so you kinda *have* to get them from China if you want addressable RGB blinkenlights that fit in a 5050 form factor. TI makes some RGB controller chips, but they're not nearly as flexible or capable and don't have the controller and LEDs in a single package.
It may be because the Chinese companies have patents on them in the U.S., but that brings up another problem - in the U.S., intellectual property on such things is usually respected because the courts will smack you down if you don't. In China, it's a free-for-all (despite their government saying otherwise), with outright counterfeits (complete with counterfeit branding) being allowed to be imported into the U.S. You can't compete with that kind of tilted playing field.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
I'm willing to bet you bought a lot more Made in America products than you think...
Did you buy gas for your car?
Did you or your office buy you some post-it notes?
Have you bought any medications lately?
Do you use Gillette razors?
Drink any cheap beer lately?
Plan on buying a Hallmark card for Valentine's day?
Buy a car in the last 5 years?
And this is just the kind of day-to-day products you'd probably run into. We *export* over $125 billion in machinery alone....
Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
So you're fine with Israel's oppression and human rights abuses but not China's? Where do you draw the line exactly?
If a country has worse abuses than China can we start buying chinese goods again?
While you state facts...
I believe you are getting "FUCK OFF" because, let's be honest, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the topic and could really be considered troll-like behavior. In fact by you attempting to insert your agenda into this thread you really do more harm to the facts your speaking about because others will see this as a racially motivated comment.
Given USA is the worlds top jailer and starter of elective never ending wars costing hundreds of thousands of lives I'm down with BDS China so long as the rest of the world does the same to the United States.
Did you just compare the human rights/freedom situation in China to the free/democratic ISRAEL?? Seriously?
Where would you like to draw the 'moral line'? At what point does human suffering become acceptable when compared to another?
Peasant.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Up until fairly recently, the strategy worked. We allowed them into the world of modern trade and commerce and bought their stuff. Overall, the country became more open and more modern. The strategy helped to pull about half a billion people out of poverty. Yes, we had to tolerate a highly flawed Chinese government with a bad human rights record and a lot of dodgy Chinese business practices, but nothing worse than we've tolerated from a dozen other countries we regularly do business with. Overall, the benefits were enormous.
Then something changed. China started backsliding. The most obvious symptom of this is Xi Jingping, who has actively pulled the country back towards autocracy, but there's a long list of things that suggest our "do business with them and they'll improve" strategy isn't working any more. A lot of foreign policy types are concluding that a change is needed. I've read that even most pro-Chinese economists in the West have concluded that China is sliding backwards. The carrot isn't working any more, so governments are trying a bit of stick instead. They're not going to have much luck expanding their overseas businesses for the next decade or two.
If it carries the Made In America tag, then substantially most or all of the parts AND labor must be provided in the US. You cannot bring parts from overseas and just assemble here; substantially most of the parts must be domestically sourced.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Thats nice, but the US is the #2 manufacturing nation on the planet with $8 trillion in yearly output. Manufacturing has increased 300% in the least 30 years. But OK. You know best.
Well, the cars sold in the US are typically made from parts coming from several countries, with components assembled in several countries, and generally only final assembly counting as to which country it is made in. Some Japanese cars are mostly made in the US or even have final assembly in the US.
My experience at companies that make products is that very often overseas contract manufacturers are used when there are lots of them to be made, but local US manufacturers are used to make small lots of products such as for early testing or limited runs. And then there's often some sort of local in-house manufacturing step, such as final assembly, installation of software, customization, etc. The US manufacturers are convenient because they're close and you can easily visit them when there's a problem or you need a quick turnaround, but the cost is significantly higher.
Often the difference isn't necessarily about labor costs. Most of these manufacturers are automated and most of the labor comes from setting things up. The traditional assembly line that wants an unskilled worker is relatively rare.
It was a great commercial that essentially said "don't be a jerk". This greatly upset the jerks for some reason.
It was a great commercial that essentially said "don't be a jerk". This greatly upset the jerks for some reason.
Bullshit. It implied that men are stupid and have to be reminded to not be jerks.. Here's a tip: The guys that are being jerks have been told "Don't be jerks" a million times.. But they're still jerks.. Virtue signaling isn't gonna do shit...
But hey, you pointed out that there are jerks and they get upset when it's pointed out.. You can go back to your SJW group and brag about how you set the story right... Your task is done..
Stats wise, you should buy the stuff.
I mean their egregious rights violations are not nearly as bad as during cultural revolution or during their civil war - so clearly buying the stuff is actually _working_ to improve the situation.
Even their attitude towards piracy and rights violations is "better" than it has ever been.
so. there's that. it's actually kind of working.
however, as it is pretty hard to buy something that wouldn't have anything from china the whole question is kind of moot. It's also pretty hard to buy something that doesn't somehow(upline licenses, manufacturing tools,brand licensing, patents or whatever) benefit USA as well.
How would you go on about buying non chinese parts electronics? sure you can buy non chinese assembled stuff.
but it would be actually far easier to start buying non-chinese wrenches than cordless drill that didn't have any chinese parts in it.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Not really. Doesn't matter where you buy a Post-It note or Gillete razor: it was made in the US...
Speaking of post-it notes, paper products are one of Europe's top imports from the USA. Right along with machinery, the last thing on the list...
Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
Japan hasn't been relevant in high end audio for a few decades. Outside of Chord and Meridian, there is nothing from Britain. Germany has Burmester, and that's about it High end is YG, Magico, Von Schweikert, D'Augustino, Krell, Ayre, Cary, Manley, and many, many more - and they are US based. Go to a high end audio show like Rock Mountain AudioFest, or AXPONA and check it out...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
I know well the story of our Navy, the Marines, and the history and traditions embodied in the Marine Corps Hymn.
But how that relates to the assertion that "regardless of color or ethnicity, not a single one of us is without an ancestor who was a slave." escapes me.
Now, if you're wondering how it was that our nation, the United States of America, found itself battling Muslim pirates so early in our history, consider that this was a response to the restraint of trade imposed by the Barbary Pirates on so many nations, the inability of so many of those other nations to take the measures necessary to respond and re-establish free passage on the seas, and our need to trade cotton, slave-harvested, with Europe.
Sound familiar? It ought to.
At that time Europe was still battling the results of Muslim invasions, and feared antagonizing the Empire, which could not be good for them. Europe was also mired in their incessant internecine squabbles, especially at the time Western Europe, with colonization fever at the highest pitch. The French Revolution would not help this region. American influence was welcomed, tacitly, as we took the initiative, secured by our ocean border, and assumed our ongoing role as the world's policemen of (mostly) last resort. To this day our Navy has, as its primary mission, defense of the free flow of goods over the seas, for all nations. And we still find opposition to that free passage, don't we? Not just the Somali pirates, either...
The Ottoman Empire, while by some measures decrepit in the end, wasn't disbanded that long ago, My mother would have been born before that. World War Two finally finished it off, and set off an era of Middle East unrest, with the entirely predictable consequences. The end of the 'Cold War' permitted Eastern European conflicts to reoccur, similarly predictable. And in all this, the militant Muslims are still looking to expand their control and dominance, not just in the Middle East, but to Europe and beyond. Not much has changed since the Crusades, it seems.
And Europe finds itself in the midst of another invasion. So also are we now facing an invasion. And a revolution-in-the-making. A revolution coming, and one inspired by the same philosophies and intentions as so many in this era. We have choices to make, and soon.
But the assertion, again, that "regardless of color or ethnicity, not a single one of us is without an ancestor who was a slave." is nearly specious. You have to go back, in my family tree, to the beginnings of Albion, and possibly before. What difference, at this point, does it make?
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.