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Ask Slashdot: Is It Ethical To Purchase Electronics Products Made In China?
dryriver writes: A lot of people seem to think it's O.K. to buy electronics made in China. We get to buy products considerably cheaper than we otherwise would, and China by all accounts is growing, developing, and modernizing as a nation due to all the cool stuff they now make for the world. There is only one problem with that reasoning. 21st Century China has an atrocious human rights record, and almost all human rights watchdogs report that China is becoming more and more repressive each year. Freedom House put it this way in 2018: "It's worth noting that, in its attitude toward political dissent, the Chinese Communist Party has proven much harsher than the old Soviet regime of the Brezhnev era. Modern Chinese sentences are longer, the prospects for early release are far worse, and the Chinese authorities are generally unmoved by pleas for leniency from foreign diplomats." Basically, consumer dollars from around the world are not gradually creating a gentler, freer, more prosperous and more modern China at all. They are making the Chinese Communist Party richer, stronger, bolder and more aggressive and repressive in every respect. To the question: knowing what the human rights situation is in China, and that consumer dollars and euros flowing into the country from abroad is making things worse, not better, is it at all ethical to buy electronics or IT products manufactured in China?
gonna keep doing it though because my life is really just a huge list of accidents anyway
AFTER we have built the modern tech world using chinas stuff... /facepalm
Seriously, where else are we going to buy our electronics from?
20 years late question.
not any more or less 'ethical' than buying gasoline or plastics made from oil from the middle-east.
Its a valid question from a western POV, however historically when was China this "gentler, freer, more prosperous"?
I think any one culture cannot impose their ideology on another and come away feeling good.
Chinese people Are more prosperous, free, and have always been gentle. can't say the same about their government but that is an internal Chinese issue.
same can be said about other cultures we seem to be at an odds with.
The world is not perfect. The United States is *far* from perfect and getting worse in many ways. But none of this excuses China from egregious rights violations so yes, there absolutely is an ethical responsibility to avoid purchasing products made in China, just as there is with Israel.
>"Is It Ethical To Purchase Electronics Products Made In China?"
Here are some reply questions: Do we even have a choice? Exactly what can I buy that isn't made in China? What is the proposed solution? Ban imports from China? Is THAT "ethical"? Drive prices up so high on products that poorer people here can't afford to buy anything? Is THAT "ethical"? Is it "ethical" to try and interfere with another sovereign nation's political and operational process? Even if we restricted trade based on "ethicality", how effective would that be? (We are far from their only market) And how much influence would we THEN have? Is there some difference between electronics/IT and any other products we buy from China? (Other than perhaps spyware, which has nothing to do with human rights inside THEIR borders).
For huge numbers of end consumers, there's not much choice. With wage stagnation and general costs of living generally increasing, the cheap Chinese-made thing is all they can afford. If there even is an option made somewhere else. Assuming the other options aren't made by companies being just as exploitative.
The real question should be, "is it ethical for corporations to outsource all their manufacturing to China?"
Electronics? No, totally unethical. For shame! Now excuse my while I go play with my totally legit Lego.
https://legoways.com/wp-conten...
Where is the data that the Chinese government is doing worse than eg during Tiananmen. Sure they have cracked down on "dissent" but that's partially because we've been politically rather quiet the last few decades because we wanted them to purchase our debt. I think China is all around better off, even though their politics still suck, society there has become markedly more "liberal" although still very much far left.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
If you want to be "ethical" and avoid products or raw materials from countries you don't agree with you're going to have to live with these trade-offs.
Be naked, the vast majority of clothes are made in places like Thailand or Bangledesh.
Have no electronics. Even if they aren't assembled in China or some other country people don't approve of, your electronics are likely to contain a rare earth metal mined from some place people don't like.
Not drive a car, use public transportation, eat food produced with the above or basically do anything. All these things use the above in some manner, so you're still "unethical". You can't be pure.
So really, all you people that want to be "ethical", go live in a cave somewhere, don't bring anything with you, and don't request help from the outside world because we all rely on the above "unethical" things. Believe me, you'll be happier you're now independent in your cave, we'll all be happier with you gone.
I'm really trying my best to avoid Made in China.
Need labelmaker? Got a 1977 Dymo 1570 embosser for almost spare change. I'm not giving China (or Dymo) a red fucking cent. Refills? I buy vintage from ebay. Seriously, a few 9' rolls should last a lifetime.
Somehow I lost my 30-year old Stanley measuring tape. Instead of getting one from Home Depot (made in China) I got an old Powerlock II from Ebay. Works fine.
Need an umbrella after the handle on my Totes went to shit (and the "warranty replacements died like that too")? Bought a Fox, made in England. I'm not giving China (or totes) a red fucking cent. So what if it cost 4x what a Totes costs. It'll last 4x longer.
Where they got me is the phones. Or "new" things. But if there's even a remote chance I can get Thing X that's old and made anywhere but china, I'll buy it.
It's not really just Fuck China, it's more "Fuck the Companies that Manufacture in China, are based Here and don't even pay taxes."
That's what voting with your wallet means. It would've been easier to get these things New, but no. Fuck 'em.
I would like to think more people are thinking like this. SOme of the folks I work with do. Some of my friends do too.
If you can afford it, don't buy China. Seriously. Don't. Fuck the companies who manufacture in China where it hurts them.
This is not for everyone. Most people want it NAO NAO NAO DAMMIT! WAAAH! Fuck that. Patience is rewarded with sweet things.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
It's not like there are a lot of options outside of Taiwan or South Korea for electronics.
The real question should be "Is it safe to buy electronics from China?"
Another good question would be "Is it safe to buy food from China?" Large amounts of pork and chicken products are processed in China, with 2 boat trips for the products.
By European/Canadian standards you make the same argument that it is unethical to purchase products from the US where workers are paid below-poverty wages, may not have access to health care and can be fired for disagreeing politically with their employer, plus some types of torture are deemed ok etc. So should we all stop buying each other's products or should we accept that the best way to change another's opinion is through leading by example and discussion rather than by refusing to talk/trade with them?
We should be considering: whether we need the product at all; the full weighted impact of a purchase -- yes, human rights, and also environmental impacts (CO2e, minerals extraction etc), and social costs and benefits, and so on; the practical alternatives and the differential impact of each choice (eg sourcing from S Korea vs China); etc etc.
And while the choices are in the end binary (buy or don't buy), the world is more finely graded.
You have two options
1) Buy from China
2) Buy from Amazon, Ebay, etc from sellers who ultimately themselves buy from China
So we can either buy direct from China, or buy indirect, at a higher price, from a reseller that buys from China.
... for the answer.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Well, the fact of the matter is that binary answers would still be one too many. They're a threat either way, and it's as unethical to buy from them as to boycott them, for the very same reasons. China is a humanitarian crisis. But we have bigger problems here right now.
I think the poster should take the log out their eye, because the US is no better! Massive amounts of homelessness, 50% of bankruptcies due to healthcare costs, something that is considered a basic human right in the rest of the western world. MUCH higher prison population per capita than any other country. The government is literally stealing social security. Gerrymandering making elections all but a foregone conclusion. Voter suppression that isn't very different than ballot box stuffing that happens in Russia. I think this is the single stupidest post ever on slashdot.
Everyone is living in a personal delusion, just some are more delusional than others.
That question leads to broader "Is international trade ethical?"
We perform international trade because products are cheaper, but one of the causes for the price the difference are different labor and environmental laws that we would not want at home.
You can justify pretty much anything with the right school of thought.
Next dumb open-ended question?
That's probably why he's asking people here, instead of asking the market.
Need labelmaker? Got a 1977 Dymo 1570 embosser for almost spare change.
I bought a new one. The letter spacing is much wider. The labels don't look nearly as nice and the labels take up more room.
Bought a Fox, made in England
TIL. I'll lokk out for them next time I'm in the market.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Of course that is not ethical. The Chicom government's legacy is drenched in blood.
Corporatism != Free Market
From a hobbyist point of view, a while back I decided to actually tabulate the country-of-origin listed on Digi-Key for all the components I was using in a project of mine. While China was definitely at the top of the list, the complete list was actually a lot more distributed than I had expected.
From that exercise, here's the list:
(this is counting unique part numbers, not the actual number of components for each part number)
China (11)
Israel (7)
Taiwan (5)
Japan (4)
Malaysia (2)
United States (2)
United Kingdom (1)
Czech Republic (1)
South Korea (1)
Philippines (1)
Vietnam (1)
Mexico (1)
Thailand (1)
While you state facts...
I believe you are getting "FUCK OFF" because, let's be honest, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the topic and could really be considered troll-like behavior. In fact by you attempting to insert your agenda into this thread you really do more harm to the facts your speaking about because others will see this as a racially motivated comment.
Given USA is the worlds top jailer and starter of elective never ending wars costing hundreds of thousands of lives I'm down with BDS China so long as the rest of the world does the same to the United States.
The first line of reasoning is that we shouldn't have anything to do with corrupt regimes, and in fact should boycott them. That's the approach we took with Cuba. The result being that Cuba has stayed Communist 60 years with its people still mired in an economic backwater with little knowledge of the free world. Cuba's GDP per capita barely budged for 50 years until Castro gave up power, and his successor began to implement reforms, eventually leading to thawing of relations with the U.S.
The second line of reasoning is that we need to have open trade and tourism with corrupt regimes, so that their citizens become more exposed to democratic ideals and culture. That's the approach we took with China. The result being that Chinese citizens have experienced a ten-fold increase in GDP per capita in the last 45 years since Nixon normalized relations with China. And Chinese citizens, while kept in the dark about certain embarrassing domestic events, are for the most part aware of how people in the free world live and frequently even travel there on vacations.
If you believe in Democracy, then you believe that power ultimately flows from the people. And the only way a corrupt government can truly be overthrown is via the will of the people being governed, not by the influence of an outside state. The most we as outsiders can do is try our best to empower those people. So from an ethical standpoint, the question becomes: Does it help the Chinese people more if we boycott China, or if we continue free trade with them? From a strictly economic standpoint, medieval monarchies were able to hold onto power by keeping the masses in poverty, and thus unable to afford to overthrow the nobility. Modern developed nations eventually reach a point (around $10k/yr GDP per capita) where further economic growth requires the development of an economic middle class. e.g. For the U.S., 58% of the income goes to people making $30k to $200k per year, 15% to people making $200k-$500k, and those making over $500k only account for 19% of all income. As a result, it's the people making $30k to $200k who wield the most power in the country.
So maintaining free trade with a corrupt regime means it must eventually empower its people if it wishes to continue economic growth. Whereas boycotting a corrupt regime means it can keep its people oppressed in perpetuity.
Is it ethical to send manufacturing jobs to China? The horse is way out of the barn, not coming back. This has been debated again and again. Search for "made in USA" and try to find something you would like to buy. I used to buy cotton socks from a company in North Carolina using US grown cotton,but the place was bought and all the machinery was shipped to China. Likely bought by a Wall Street firm following cheap labor and lax or few rules or laws around the globe. To Mexico, India, Pakistan, Viet Nam, etc.
Up until fairly recently, the strategy worked. We allowed them into the world of modern trade and commerce and bought their stuff. Overall, the country became more open and more modern. The strategy helped to pull about half a billion people out of poverty. Yes, we had to tolerate a highly flawed Chinese government with a bad human rights record and a lot of dodgy Chinese business practices, but nothing worse than we've tolerated from a dozen other countries we regularly do business with. Overall, the benefits were enormous.
Then something changed. China started backsliding. The most obvious symptom of this is Xi Jingping, who has actively pulled the country back towards autocracy, but there's a long list of things that suggest our "do business with them and they'll improve" strategy isn't working any more. A lot of foreign policy types are concluding that a change is needed. I've read that even most pro-Chinese economists in the West have concluded that China is sliding backwards. The carrot isn't working any more, so governments are trying a bit of stick instead. They're not going to have much luck expanding their overseas businesses for the next decade or two.
Thank you for asking this question. It is something that I think about constantly. When the reports about the poor working conditions in Foxconn factories first came out years ago, I decided to boycott Apple and never buy another one of their products.
Now, yes, I do understand that it's hypocritical to continue to hold that boycott because there are so many places that manufacture their goods at Foxconn. I have tried to only buy goods that are not made in those factories, but it's virtually impossible these days if you want to participate in technology at all. As a programmer, I feel that I have no choice but to participate, but I understand that I am in a privileged position to be able to "have to" buy these things.
Yes, I also realize the very good argument that the people moving to these "camps" (er, factories) are making better money than they would be making in their rural villages. They are able to save that money and they are able to send it back home to take care of their families. No, there is no opportunity for them to advance, though -- that's bothersome to me.
I also realize that Foxconn, because of their privileged relationship with Apple, do the best at making sure their workers are treated fairly. I've read the China Labor Watch (Link) reports and they are damning -- of all the factories. It just sticks in my craw that when Foxconn had to decide how to tackle the problem of worker suicides, they decided to build a net to catch jumpers rather than, you know, address their misery.
So, I continue to draw my little, silly line in the sand and boycott Apple products while trying to buy as little as possible from Foxconn.
That said, the overall question is something that bothers me and something that I try to keep in the front of my mind as often as possible.
Thanks again for asking the question.
remove nospam. to email!
You avoid maids in China? Are you referring to house-maids, or are you using "maid" to refer to young women in general? Why are you so scared of women?
No one ever wonders "how come rich people commit fewer crimes?" or "why do white people commit crimes against their white neighbors instead of driving across time to the black neighborhood?"
Given that this is slashdot, I don't know what's worse. That this earlier AC is being sincere and is really that deluded, or that this is just another troll trying to wind people up.
You avoid maids in China? Are you referring to house-maids, or are you using "maid" to refer to young women in general? Why are you so scared of women?
Maid in Chian is a bit of an old joke in vacuum-tube hi-fi (and maybe the guitar/bass people too). In the early 2000's there was a run of tubes made in China that read "Erection Tube / Maid in Chian" instead of "Electron Tube / Made in China." If they can't even spell the fucking thing right, how do we know the complicated innards are well-made? (They weren't.)
I'm open to maids from any country, but I want my vacuum tubes made in USA, Germany or the UK, por favor. I'll take JJ from what was Yugoslavia, and Svetlana in Russia also makes passable stuff.
What did we call Chinese tubes? Firecrackers, especially 5AR4 rectifiers.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
The US mil encountered lots of Communist gov support in Vietnam and Korea from China.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Deuteronomy 18:11-12.
To drive around with evil magicians symbols.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Working for pay is ethical. Paying for work is ethical. Both are major essential parts of the Free Market.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Nearly impossible. Almost all of the electronic components are made in China now. I'd say nearly 100% of the TVs, cellphones, a lot of the home appliances, pretty soon, Chevy passenger cars.
How can we buy electronics that are not made in China?
Our U.S. companies have shut down manufacturing and moved it to China in the majority of consumer products.
I can't believe this BS.
Who are these people who think they can preach to China ?
Are they from a country with a huge percentage of its population in jail ?
China has had a civilization for >6000 years.
They generally DON'T start wars try to tell the rest of the world how to live.
They are incredibly smart and industrious.
The have universal health care, guaranteed employment, and very low crime rate
Sure they have problems, but they have shown time and time again that they can solve big problems.
Most all of us could learn a lot from the Chinese, if we would just get to know them.
- I buy refurbished whenever possible. On the upside: It's not only ethical in more ways than one, it gives you neat bargains aswell.
- If I buy new, I see to it that the gear will/could last me 10 years - at least in theory. Point in case: My MB Air is from early 2011 and still is useful.
- I always try to buy hardware that I could control or at least can usefully run offline if push comes to shove. With other things equal, I prefer hackable hardware over regular hardware.
I presume this approach will become more important to me in the future (Stallmans "Right to read" comes to mind). There might even come a point in the near future where I stock up on older refurbished electronics in order to be able to control it when things go south.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Stats wise, you should buy the stuff.
I mean their egregious rights violations are not nearly as bad as during cultural revolution or during their civil war - so clearly buying the stuff is actually _working_ to improve the situation.
Even their attitude towards piracy and rights violations is "better" than it has ever been.
so. there's that. it's actually kind of working.
however, as it is pretty hard to buy something that wouldn't have anything from china the whole question is kind of moot. It's also pretty hard to buy something that doesn't somehow(upline licenses, manufacturing tools,brand licensing, patents or whatever) benefit USA as well.
How would you go on about buying non chinese parts electronics? sure you can buy non chinese assembled stuff.
but it would be actually far easier to start buying non-chinese wrenches than cordless drill that didn't have any chinese parts in it.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Ooooh, that's a real tricky one, isn't it? I guess it depends on how much the slavery, oppression, and murder makes your life easier.
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Is it possible to purchase electronics products that are not made in China?
The question shouldn't be "Is it ethical to purchase electronics from China?" Rather, the question should be "Are you willing to create an alternative and use that?"
Practically, ethics are an issue when one has a choice. When there's a need, but no choice, ethical considerations become hazy, at best. One can always revisit how much XYZ is a *need* vs. a *want*, but if we're talking about the practicality of operating in the modern world, those needs are often pretty real.
So long as the cost remains cheap, versus manufacturing electronics in your home country, employing your neighbours, don't expect the ethical question to play well with the public.
China is becoming more and more repressive each year
That like saying global warming is a hoax due to a small recent downtick in an otherwise upward trend. China today is light years better than in the past, judging from the stories I hear from my in-laws and read for myself. That doesn't mean everything is fine
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Leonid Brezhnev...back when men were men and eyebrows were singular
Sig Follows: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
Knowing that my ancestors were Irish, British, and Danish, I've got to go a ways back to find slaves in my family tree.
My father's side was purely Irish, come to America after the Revolution, but before the Irish were tolerated without a racism normally reserved for others. They escaped indentured servitude by living at the edge of civilization, coming a bit south much later. My mother's side was as British as could be, having first settled in the Colonies before they were called Colonies, and all the intervening marriages were among other settler families, which presents other more interesting questions. None had slaves. One of my uncles moved to Washington, D.C., and adopted the racism prevalent then, and you might well describe his attitudes and business as soft slavery, but he himself? Never a slave.
I'm still unable to shake the possibility that my family tree includes some Native American blood, though it is not recorded anywhere.
If, however, you go back far enough, the claim that "not a single one of us is without an ancestor who was a slave" may be true. Back far enough, and you can make all kinds of irrelevant claims.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Also don't buy from Japan, they butchered a defenceless fleet at Perl Harbor. Also don't buy from Irak as they invaded and enslaved Kuwait ! Ok you can buy from syria as they are totally nice and peaceful.
Thanks for the overly-simplistic assessment.
How about it does not lend itself to our continuing survival? Lenin said that capitalists will sell you the rope to hang you with. We should add to that that consumers will buy the rope, then give it to you to hang them with. It is time to get back to the understanding of the true evil of communist China.
E Proelio Veritas.
I know well the story of our Navy, the Marines, and the history and traditions embodied in the Marine Corps Hymn.
But how that relates to the assertion that "regardless of color or ethnicity, not a single one of us is without an ancestor who was a slave." escapes me.
Now, if you're wondering how it was that our nation, the United States of America, found itself battling Muslim pirates so early in our history, consider that this was a response to the restraint of trade imposed by the Barbary Pirates on so many nations, the inability of so many of those other nations to take the measures necessary to respond and re-establish free passage on the seas, and our need to trade cotton, slave-harvested, with Europe.
Sound familiar? It ought to.
At that time Europe was still battling the results of Muslim invasions, and feared antagonizing the Empire, which could not be good for them. Europe was also mired in their incessant internecine squabbles, especially at the time Western Europe, with colonization fever at the highest pitch. The French Revolution would not help this region. American influence was welcomed, tacitly, as we took the initiative, secured by our ocean border, and assumed our ongoing role as the world's policemen of (mostly) last resort. To this day our Navy has, as its primary mission, defense of the free flow of goods over the seas, for all nations. And we still find opposition to that free passage, don't we? Not just the Somali pirates, either...
The Ottoman Empire, while by some measures decrepit in the end, wasn't disbanded that long ago, My mother would have been born before that. World War Two finally finished it off, and set off an era of Middle East unrest, with the entirely predictable consequences. The end of the 'Cold War' permitted Eastern European conflicts to reoccur, similarly predictable. And in all this, the militant Muslims are still looking to expand their control and dominance, not just in the Middle East, but to Europe and beyond. Not much has changed since the Crusades, it seems.
And Europe finds itself in the midst of another invasion. So also are we now facing an invasion. And a revolution-in-the-making. A revolution coming, and one inspired by the same philosophies and intentions as so many in this era. We have choices to make, and soon.
But the assertion, again, that "regardless of color or ethnicity, not a single one of us is without an ancestor who was a slave." is nearly specious. You have to go back, in my family tree, to the beginnings of Albion, and possibly before. What difference, at this point, does it make?
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
I'm concerned about buying Chinese electronics just because of the potential for the gadgets to include methods to infiltrate/enable hacking exploits on systems that use these devices.
Even if you buy something not stamped "Made in China" you're going to be buying something that contains components made there. There's no getting around the global supply chain now.
No it isn't ethical. Good luck finding things that are not or do not have components made in China ( a preferred trade partner). Thank you Pres. Richard Nixon.
On the other hand more then a few alternate places things might be bought from ( North Korea? , etc. aren't much better).
Basically it would be better not to, but it would also be better not to every drive a car or use a product transported with a vehicle that uses or is charged by electricity generated with fossil fuels. You can't though, even if you wanted. Good luck.
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
Rather than buying Chinese goods cut China off completely. It's far more ethical to plunge a country of 1.4billion people into a recession. Those poor people have had it too good for too long with their crappy low income jobs.
You do realise that almost certainly deep down his decision is based on racism, that asians are someone 'lower' than him, and all those damn gooks are the same, right?
After all, other than that, why not buy chinese? its not him supporting america, since by his own admission he happily buys english...
I would suggest only America has African Americans.
However Africa has one hell of a lot more Africans.
And southern France and Spain have quite a few also..