Tesla Launches Base Model 3 For $35,000 With Shorter Range, New Interior (electrek.co)

In a call with reporters Thursday, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said the company is finally launching the long-promised standard Model 3 with a base price of $35,000. "The automaker is now making several new versions of the Model 3 available with a shorter range and new interior options," reports Electrek. From the report: Today, Tesla sent an email to its retail stores the details of the announcement of the new options being available to order in the U.S. today and available as soon as next month. All the details are expected to become available in the next hour, but here's what we know so far: Customers are now able to order the $35,000 Model 3 with a standard interior and standard battery pack enabling 130mph top speed and 5.6s 0-60s acceleration. Tesla is also making a new "Partial Premium Interior" with better seats than the standard interior available with a different "standard range plus" battery pack for a $2,000 premium. The Model 3 Standard Range Plus results in 240 miles of range, a top speed of 140mph, 0-60mph acceleration of just 5.3 seconds. Tesla says that deliveries are starting within the next 2 to 4 weeks depending on the configuration in the U.S. In Europe, Musk said it will be available to order within the "next 3 to 6 months." Slashdot reader Rei provides additional details: The new unveiling introduced a whole slew of variants, including (price, range, top speed, 0-60, premium):

SR: $35K, 220 miles, 130mph, 5.6 seconds, non-PUP
SR+: $37K, 240 miles, 140mph, 5.3 seconds, partial-PUP
MR: $40K, 264 miles, 140mph, 5.2 seconds, PUP
LR: $43K, 325 miles, 140mph, 5.0 seconds, PUP
AWD: $47K, 310 miles, 145mph, 4.5 seconds, PUP
P: $48K, 310 miles, 162mph, 3.2 seconds, PUP

Pricing, ranges, and features have by and large significantly surpassed initial promises. For example, the Long Range (LR) variant was supposed to be a $9K premium over SR, with the Premium Upgrades Package another $5k, but now PUP is included in LR and the price difference is only $8K. Range and performance specs have been upgraded not just on new vehicles, but will also be upgraded on existing vehicles, where applicable, via software update. The price for Autopilot has dropped from $5K to $3K, and some features once planned to be premium-only -- including the glass roof and auto dimming, power folding, heated side mirrors -- are now standard. The Model S and X product line has also been modified, with higher performance at the top end and lower prices at the bottom.

To achieve cost savings, in addition to production optimizations and the recent layoffs, Tesla announced an unexpected strategy: they're closing most of their stores. Sales will only be conducted online. Instead of test drives, cars can be returned within 7 days or 1,000 miles at no charge. "Quite literally, you could buy a Tesla, drive several hundred miles for a weekend road trip with friends and then return it for free," Tesla said in their blog post.

Comments

Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

The one part that I think doesn't signal they are doing well is the closing of the stores. I know where I am there is a Tesla store in the mall and it's always packed. Granted, where I live (S. Fla) is a haven for Tesla vehicles - but still - I think cars are something people want a shopping experience with and I feel this will be a mistake for Tesla.

Re:Closing their stores?

[omnichad]

cars are something people want a shopping experience with

No. That is literally the worst part of car ownership.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry - nope. I want to go and look and shop and drive. Ordering online? Sure, where I can I see and drive it IRL first? nowwhere? Then Im moving on. Especially a brand that just lost the recommendations from CR.

I dont get this fear of the dealership, your the customer, you have all the power - dont like the deal? Walk TF away. Wanna really get scammed? Go to a carmax.

(im not fighting for the dealerships here, they are an abomination and anti-consumer, we all hate them. Dont get me started on mattresses)

Re: Closing their stores?

[c6gunner]

The one part that I think doesn't signal they are doing well is the closing of the stores.

Tesla never wanted stores in the first place. Part of their business model right from the start was a desire to upend the existing "dealership" model. They were forced to open stores because the laws in some (many?) states prohibited manufacturers from selling direct to consumers.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry - nope. I want to go and look and shop and drive.

You're probably the one guy that feels this way. I do not want to spend time at a dealership shopping. I love cars. I'm one of those that will stop by on a Sunday and look at the cars when there are no sales people there to talk to me.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they are packed with tire kickers, not buyers. There is a Tesla store 5 minutes from my house and I never stepped foot inside it until after I bought my car.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep... Car shopping is ghastly and annoying. I much prefer the method we just did.

1. Needed a car
2. Looked online
3. Called a dealer on the USAA list of vetted dealers.
4. Arranged for financing for the USAA price.
5. Drove off with a vehicle at the price we wanted.

Spending weekends hunting for cars is over-rated for me and my wife.
Others may love it however.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

The trouble is that when you actually want to buy the car, you're at some point going to get shuffled into a room with the slimy 'finance' guy who'll waste an hour of your time trying to swindle and guilt you into paying for crap you don't want (and in most cases, you'll deal with other annoying "oh, you can't get that price.. Oh, ok.. let me go check with my manager" [wait 20 mins] on repeat before you get there). The dealerships I bought from are dead to me. In their world, this stuff still happens. I moved on a long time ago and I see exactly what they are.

Re:Closing their stores?

[bob4u2c]

Going to a dealership to "test drive" a car should be the last step. First, contact local car rental companies and see if you can book a specific car for a day or two (usually weekdays are the cheapest). Rental cars are usually fully loaded and you can drive the thing for a whole day wherever you want with nobody looking over your shoulder. Try fitting those child seats, take the family to the store and see how it feels with no pressure. If it handles poorly, doesn't have enough umph, or brakes like your on black ice, it only cost you a little to find out.

Once you know the type of car you want, then you move online or to dealerships. Get at least three prices and millage for the car you want. Then take the lowest price and subtract 3% (which should be about the right price anyway, check KBB), make this the price of a fake dealership and add to your pile of quotes you take with you in a folder. Order the quotes by lowest millage. Then go to the first dealership and ask for a test drive. If you like the car offer your 3% lowest price. If they balk open the folder, pull out their quote and toss it in the garbage. Thank the salesperson for their time and you'll just go with your next option; then walk out. I've never made it more than 5 steps before the salesperson has to have a talk with the boss. Usually they come back with some sob story or they will loose money on the deal, in which case I respond with a "well maybe one of these other dealerships can do better" and I stand up again. They are quick to act, and after a second talk with their boss they agree to the price.

My next car I buy I might see if I can order online without ever stepping foot on a sales lot. Personally I wish I could just order direct from the car company. They don't even need to deliver to my door, to my town would be great (say leave it in a mall parking lot or some place publicly accessible). They could even pre-mail you a key to open the doors and have the key inside the center console, or if the car has onstar they could arrange to have the car unlocked when are are near the car. I'd even have a friend drive me, or take a bus, or a plane trip to pick up a car if they couldn't deliver to my town. Just as long as I don't have to step foot on a dealership lot again.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, where I can I see and drive it IRL first? nowwhere? Then Im moving on.

You book online. Are you pretending to be retarded or just plain retarded?

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

After you've finished your test drives and decided what you want, do some research on pricing, then call and ask for the fleet dealer. He or she will typically give you a bottom line price, as their money is in volume, not haggling. If you don't like the price, move on to another dealer. Better yet, e-mail (or if you have one, fax) a bunch of fleet dealers with details of what you want, and ask them to send you their best offer. Then pick.

Re:Closing their stores?

[hackertourist]

Haggling with the salesman is the worst part of car ownership. Test drives are (for me) an absolute requirement. I will not spend thousands on something I can't thoroughly evaluate beforehand.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

In buying my car I never had this problem. I made the deal and said "take it or leave it" (then again, I wasn't financing). They accepted my offer and I drove off with a new car. After I test drove half a dozen on the lot to find the one I liked the best.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is until you learn to negotiate. Do your research, find out what the actual cost of the car is...or as close as you can get. Figure out how much cash (buying power) you get for your loan--that plus whatever down payment you can afford is how much you have to spend. If you have a trade-in, find out what that is worth. Edmunds is a good source of info for prices. Now you know how much car you can afford.

The sales person will never say a price out loud. They will write it on a piece of paper and slide it across the desk to you. You cross it out and write in the figure you arrived at and slide it back.

They will say they can't do that. You ask them to send it to their manager. They want sales count so they can win the trip to Hawaii. The manager wants sales count because they get dealer cash at the end of the year based on that. The manager will take your deal. You just fucked the sales person out of his commission, but what do you care?

Read "Don't Get Taken Every Time" by Remar Sutton, then nut up. It feels good to be a grownup.

Re: Closing their stores?

[AmiMoJo]

No such laws in most of Europe. The stores are just because people don't want to spend â100,000 on a car they haven't even seen in the flesh, let alone had a chance to test drive.

I guess they feel that now they have reached critical mass and no longer need to offer those opportunities. Will be interesting to see if it works.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

Buying a car is a major purchasing decision. You're darn right I want to see it in person and test drive it first. Maybe there's not enough leg room, head room, or I don't like the fabric and want to upgrade to leather interior, etc. It also gives the salesperson a chance to upsell features or show you other vehicles if you're not happy enough with the first one.
I think those who don't care about seeing it physically already have experience with the vehicle elsewhere (eg. a friend, a rental car) or have so much money that it doesn't matter if they make a purchase they aren't totally happy with.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Hodr]

How do you get scammed at CarMax? They are relatively expensive, but they don't haggle so you know exactly what the car costs up front.

No BS dealership telling you one cost, then changing that because they were mistaken about the number of discounts you qualify for (oh sorry, we thought you were an active duty kindergarden teacher with only 1 leg, our mistake), or requiring you to fist fight the finance guy over addons (warranty, undercoating, whatever) and how much you are actually paying for the car (you want to pay less, what if I can make it $400 a month for say 136 months?)

Re: Closing their stores?

[Hodr]

That is literally the opposite of what happened. They couldn't direcly sell vehicles at their stores in some places because of the "dealership model" which is why their "stores" only let you test drive and tell you about the car. You then have to buy the car online anyways. You CANNOT hand anyone at the store a bag of cash and drive away with a car.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Luthair]

Going to look at a car and drive it before you buy it is annoying? The part that people don't like is the people, thats a solvable problem - pay a reasonable salary not commissions.

Re:Closing their stores?

[fluffernutter]

I hope you did a test drive first!

Re:Closing their stores?

[omnichad]

You can be successful at it and still hate every minute of it.

Re:Closing their stores?

[pezpunk]

About 90,000 new "locations" for you test drive one were delivered last quarter, with an expected 300,000 more or so to come by the end of the year. As a Tesla owner myself, I can vouch for the fact that virtually any Tesla owner would be happy to talk about and show our vehicle to you. If you're even casual friends with the person, no doubt they'd let you take it for a spin as well.

Re:Closing their stores?

[pezpunk]

or... skip all that nonsense and just order it online like you would any other product.

Re:Closing their stores?

[mjwx]

cars are something people want a shopping experience with

No. That is literally the worst part of car ownership.

Then you've been buying cars from the wrong places. Dodgy Dave's used car emporium is like shopping at poundland, you're not there for the ambience, you're there to buy things for a quid each. I tend to shop at nicer places than Poundland.

When buying a £30,000 car I expect someone who knows what their doing and a little bit of ceremony on delivery. When I picked up my M240i the BMW dealer gave me a short unveiling ceremony and a quick run down of the car. Sure it wasn't much but the fact they wanted to make their customers happy and ensure they knew the vehicle counts for a lot... And this was for a 2 series, not a £100,000 7 series.

I can think of a dozen different things about car ownership that have happened to me today that have been worse than buying it. Not the least of which was being stuck behind a Prius doing 20 in a 40 zone. I'd have to say other road users is the worst part of car ownership.

Re:Closing their stores?

[b0bby]

I can vouch for this. A neighbor I only know in passing let me take his Model 3 for a spin a few weeks ago. He loves the thing, and is looking to spread the love. I have to admit, it's a fun car - I actually laughed out loud at the acceleration when he encouraged me to floor it. I was impressed with the auto pilot, too, although it would take me a while to trust it. I kept grabbing the wheel when I couldn't believe that it could navigate stuff like traffic calming curbs on a curvy road. He kept saying "you can trust it!" but I really didn't want to run his car up onto a curb.

If I were in the market for a sedan, I would get a Model 3 for sure.

Re: Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

No such laws in most of Europe.

The challenge in Europe is selling people a car that isn't a tiny, hideous hatchback clown car. Besides, everyone knows Europeans have predicted that no one will own cars and instead we'll all use ride sharing services and have 5 complete strangers sitting in our laps.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like now you can have a 1000 mile test drive before you have to commit to buy it.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Whorhay]

We drove 110 miles each way to buy from CarMax. The City we live in has a dealership for most every brand except the luxury outliers like Ferrari and such, but didn't have a CarMax at the time. We already knew what makes and models of vehicle we were looking for and so started checking inventories. We found CarMax online and their system for looking for a vehicle was much better than the hodge podge all the other brands and dealers had. We found a vehicle that matched what we wanted, but it was located on the other side of the country. CarMax charged us $500 to bring it to their nearest dealership, where we went to test drive it and make sure it was what we wanted then purchased it. We probably spent less than an hour at the dealership. The cost, especially with the delivery fee, was probably a little higher than we might have paid otherwise but we got precisely the vehicle we were looking for without a lot of hassle. I plan for my next car purchase to be a Tesla, otherwise I would be going back for sure.

Re: Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fag car runs on sunshine and homo-semen...TRUMPUTINs going down conservatards!!

Re: Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I know why I see you spitting into the fuel tank of your car all the time.

Re:Closing their stores?

[Valtor]

Yeah exactly. I wish I had mod points...

Re:Closing their stores?

[satsuke]

That might be a cultural thing .. in the US (because everything revolves around the US) .. car salespersons are commissioned, they don't sell, they don't eat, with such things as working 5-6 12 hour days at some dealerships being common.

There's also an adversarial arrangement at many of them where the customer is expected to negotiate for the price of the car with an unseen sales manager with a 10-20 minute wait each time, so just agreeing on a price can take hours.

Than there's the financing, where they can and do steer you towards loans that are higher interest rates or worse terms than you might otherwise qualify for because the dealership makes money from the bank on the front end. This is especially true if the purchaser doesn't have very good credit.

All this to say, buying a car can be an arduous, mentally draining process here...

Re:Closing their stores?

[hawk]

>There's also an adversarial arrangement at many of them where the customer is expected to negotiate for
>the price of the car with an unseen sales manager with a 10-20 minute wait each time, so just agreeing
>on a price can take hours.

It's *amazing* what standing and walking to the door does under those circumstances.

Have your financing ready *before* you go (not pre-qualification;, *actual* approval).

Tell the salesman, "If you pull out a four-square, use the word 'trade-in' or start talking about extended warranties, I walk."

And do it,

(besides, it's fun. :). when the salesman insisted he was required to read the babble about warranties, tracking systems, and such, my father pulled out a book and told the droid to let him know when he was done, and ignored him until he gave up).

Oh, and when they want you to sign that little slip about "if financing is denied" with daily and mileage charges--just refuse.

If they can *actually* give you a better rate/terms than you had, fine--but they have to write the paper and be stuck with it if they're wrong. I was ready to walk, and they tore that up.

hawk

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

or have the loan already taken care of (if you need a loan, which you shouldn't)

Re:Closing their stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

So instead of haggling say from $35k down to $32k + some extras (example figures, and depending on how good you are), you'll just buy it at sticker value online for $35k..

Yea I'll stick to haggling and trying to save a few thousand dollars..

Re:Closing their stores?

[dfenstrate]

In buying my car I never had this problem. I made the deal and said "take it or leave it" (then again, I wasn't financing). They accepted my offer and I drove off with a new car. After I test drove half a dozen on the lot to find the one I liked the best.

If you're confident in your financing you can make the same play.... but paying cash is a great approach.

Re:Closing their stores?

[haruchai]

Looks like now you can have a 1000 mile test drive before you have to commit to buy it.

7 days or 1000 miles whichever comes first but you've already paid for it by that point so if you choose to return it, you won't get your money back right away

*vapes some hellacious cannabis oil*

[Anonymous Coward]

My fedora is doffed at your excellent adulting, sir

*sucks more pot vape from robot dong*

I am going to purchase one of these vehicles, in fact, funding is secured.

Closing stores?

[Camembert]

This doesnâ(TM)t look like a good idea to me. A car is something that most consumers want to sit in and explore in the showroom. It is not like a book you order online.

Re:Closing stores?

[anegg]

Closing *many of* the stores... some stay open. From the article:

Shifting all sales online, combined with other ongoing cost efficiencies, will enable us to lower all vehicle prices by about 6% on average, allowing us to achieve the $35,000 Model 3 price point earlier than we expected. Over the next few months, we will be winding down many of our stores, with a small number of stores in high-traffic locations remaining as galleries, showcases and Tesla information centers. The important thing for customers in the United States to understand is that, with online sales, anyone in any state can quickly and easily buy a Tesla.

Re:Closing stores?

[rtb61]

It would have been far smarter to alter the nature of Tesla stores. Instead of just selling their cars, they should have started selling a range of other automotive stuff. Their vehicles could also probably use a display redesign. Two displays, a basic one for car functions built in and a lockable dock of a tablet, as a digital services expansion on the vehicle. So you could buy the vehicle and then come back to bay a particular model of the tablet, more features, more capable, larger size, add another lockable mount and you can buy a second tablet for the front seat passenger. What else, Tesla branded phone, Tesla branded clothing and Tesla branded consumables, even models of the vehicles for children dreaming of their future car to build. So you have a Tesla store, that also sells cars. Never forget, people will always sell more stuff than computers, losing the stores, means losing personal interaction with Tesla stuff, cut off your people from you consumers and you will lose out, when compared to others in the same market.

Probably, rather than shutting down stores, Tesla needs larger stores, than can carry and sell far more items, enough for the store to generate a profit, just on those items alone and they also sell, service and support Tesla vehicles.

Re:Closing stores?

[yodleboy]

By killing the stores, Tesla appears to be counting on word of mouth to sell cars. The people on here that think buying a car online is a good idea probably have friends with a Tesla and have had at least a little hands on. A seriously stripped down model that only comes in one color seems just the trick for people that want to be able to say "I own a Tesla". Thanks but no thanks.

Re:Closing stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

They already sell branded clothing...

I visited a Tesla store when I was visiting Hamburg.
There was a kid in there buying a car (with his dad).
I couldn't afford a Tesla, so I looked at the clothing they _were_ also selling in the store.
I couldn't afford the clothes either.

Isn't window shopping fun.

Re:Closing stores?

[BasilBrush]

Congratulations, you just created a market in Tesla dockable tablets. Now thieves have a reason to smash car windows and steal them.

Re:Closing stores?

[ConfusedVorlon]

No doubt that stores help to sell cars. Equally, it seems likely that a 6% discount will help to sell cars.

So the question is which will sell more:

Car @ $40k - no store, but free return
Car @ $42.5 - you get to sit in a car and (presumably) do a test drive

(picking the $40k option as a representative middle ground)

as to the cost of doing returns, If we guess that 10% are returned, and those are then re-sold at a 15% discount, that's a cost of ~ $600/sale (ignoring the cost of delivery/collection)

Re:Closing stores?

[Erik Hensema]

For Tesla fanboys, the lower price will definitely drive more sales. Problem is: there is a limited amount of fanboys. Once they all have their car, you'll have to sell them to Regular Joe which is way, way harder.

The million dollar question is: how many fanboys are there? And are new fanboys created by word-of-mouth? I certainly don't know.

Of course it's stupid to think anybody in their right mind would order and buy a car in order to just evaluate it, while you can simply go to any Hyundai, Kia, Volkswagen, or Peugeot (in Europe) dealership and drive an electric car with a similar price to the Model 3. And more and more brands are added to that list. And yes, I omitted Jaguar and Audi because they only compete to the Model S and Model X.

Re:Closing stores?

[Oswald McWeany]

What else, Tesla branded phone, Tesla branded clothing and Tesla branded consumables,

I'm wearing Tesla branded underwear right now!
Although, I suspect it has nothing to do with the car brand "Tesla"- got it off Amazon and actually some of the most comfortable undies I've worn!

So yeah, there is already a clothing company called Tesla, they make decent stuff... I suspect they're not the same "Tesla" though.

Re:Closing stores?

[Oswald McWeany]

For Tesla fanboys, the lower price will definitely drive more sales. Problem is: there is a limited amount of fanboys. Once they all have their car, you'll have to sell them to Regular Joe which is way, way harder.

Consumer Reports recently dropped Tesla Model 3 as a recomended car. They seem to be shipping with lots of defects.

I want Tesla to do well, I guess you would call me a semi-fanboy (I like the look of the Rivians more though- although that's definitely out of my price range). I wouldn't buy a Model 3 though because they are problematic. Dropping the price doesn't change that.

Dropping price will help sell to some Regular Joes- but any who do their homework will probably be put off. I am. I'll stick with Toyota or Honda for reliability until Tesla gets their act together on their cheaper model.

Re:Closing stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are all the haters that said they would NEVER release a $35,000 Model 3?

suck it haters.

Re:Closing stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

How exactly are these vehicles affordable when a large portion of the US has less than 5k in their savings? For being affordable, it seems really like just mean "more debt over time"

Re: Closing stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

2 years later it comes true. LOL. Finally.

A 35k car with manual seats, cloth seats, non pup, 240 mile range. LOLOL what a disgrace.

Re:Closing stores?

[haruchai]

"The million dollar question is: how many fanboys are there? And are new fanboys created by word-of-mouth? I certainly don't know."

Over 300,000 were fanboy enough to put down $1000 and wait 2-3 years.
And it's a reasonable guess that more than 1/2 of those are still waiting and with this latest announcement will wait at least a few months more.
But taken together, this raft of abrupt changes is and should be VERY worrying to any customer or stockholder.
Something isn't right and when you add in that the resignation of Yoshio Ito, the head of Panasonic's automotive & industrial systems, was announced the very same day, one can't help but wonder exactly what the hell is going on.

BeauHD too short to edit

[Anonymous Coward]

But copy/pasting the same stuff a couple times in a row, that BeauHD can do. Metric still too hard, though.

What?

[erp_consultant]

Closing the stores? Where are you supposed to go to get the car serviced?

Re: What?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't get them serviced at the showroom, dipshit.

Re: What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Craigslist, where you can also get yourself serviced, of course.

Re:What?

[anegg]

The article touches on servicing, too:

At the same time, we will be increasing our investment in the Tesla service system, with the goal of same-day, if not same-hour service, and with most service done by us coming to you, rather than you coming to us. Moreover, we guarantee service availability anywhere in any country in which we operate./quote?

Re:What?

[squiggleslash]

Maybe some enterprising third parties can come in and start running stores that people can use to test drive and even buy Teslas at. They could have showrooms full of Teslas, and people who want to buy one could go to such a place, be greeted by a salesperson who could also help arrange financing and, perhaps even negotiate a price to meet the buyer's budget. These "dealerships" as I would suggest we call them would be a great way to ensure people around the country have a chance to buy Teslas.

I wonder why Musk hasn't thought of this?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yourself

There are some people who have waited 9 months to get their Tesla fixed. There are quite a few people who have had to fix their Tesla themselves and posted videos on Youtube on how to do it which has helped other Tesla owners.

Just my opinion but Porsche is going to wreck Tesla when the Taycan comes out. If you get into a wreck or your vehicle needs to be repaired they will have replacement parts and service centers that can fix your vehicles in days, not months.

Re:What?

[thegarbz]

Closing the stores? Where are you supposed to go to get the car serviced?

Service center, or use one of their mobile service options? I can't say I've ever driven my car back to a showroom for a service.

Re:What?

[CohibaVancouver]

Would they also be able to sell me undercoating and fabric and paint "protection" for the car?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think that potential Porsche owners give a shit about wrecks and breakdowns when they go to buy their new car.

Re: What?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean you're FORCED to, horse dick. While having to talk to some slick loser and a bunch of corrupt "engineers", shit stain. While otherwise you could just go any fucking where you want if shit were standardized, cum stain. Animal part. Fecal matter synonym. Body byproduct.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all stores service vehicles. And, Tesla has been doing on-site service on cars for some time now.

Re:What?

[AmiMoJo]

That really is a joke. People are waiting 3 months for routine servicing right now, let alone repairs. There aren't enough loan vehicles either.

Re:What?

[beanpoppa]

I made a reservation to have my 3 serviced online. The first available appointment was 2 weeks out. I made my appointment (it wasn't an emergency). The next day, I received a call from the service center that they could have the mobile tech come to me, or I could bring it in later that day or the next.

Re:What?

[BasilBrush]

You nearly lost me at "greeted by a salesperson". You really did lose me at "negotiate".

These are the things most people hate about buying a car.

Re: What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the fuck pays for service at a dealership? You have to be an epic retard to do that.

numbnuts

Re: What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pays? No. My service is free at my dealership.

Who pays for service? You are dumb.

Re:What?

[AmiMoJo]

Lucky you. It depends if your area is oversubscribed or not.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is stupid, Why pay a middle man markup when you do not have to? If you need help with financing, you have no business getting any type of loan. What would happen is people would go to the fake dealership and then go online.

numbnuts

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Poe's law in action.

Re:What?

[AmiMoJo]

Coatings/wraps are pretty popular with Tesla owners. The paint is known to be a bit soft and expensive to replace, and also most of the cars they sell are $50k+ where it makes more sense to invest a few thousand in that kind of protection.

Re:What?

[pezpunk]

Do you have first hand experience on this subject? as a Tesla owner, my experience echos his. i've had the car 3 years and only had to service it once (for the "annual" service, and new tires ... that ludicrous mode, yo...)

i made an appointment, a week later i took my car in. easy as cake.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess that is just a drawback of living in the paradise that is Europe...

Re:What?

[squiggleslash]

OK, I was actually making a joke, but FWIW the "middle man markup" at most dealerships is somewhere approximating to $200 per vehicle, which is probably less than Teslas overheads selling the cars directly (remember Tesla is talking about shipping each car individually to individuals across the country to test drive and back again if they don't buy it. Yes, there's shipping with dealerships too, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper to ship 500 cars to one place once a month, especially when you can use rail for part of the journey, than to 500 different places at different times of the month, with some making a return journey, all from and to the factory.)

Dealers don't make money on vehicle sales. They make money on the sundry stuff, maintenance, recalls, etc. Yes, your Tesla doesn't need oil changes, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to determine ways in which a dealer could make money on aftercare.

I'm not saying dealers are great, the culture of most dealerships sucks, but that said nothing stops Tesla from imposing a culture on any company that wants to sell its cars. Dealerships don't have to be terrible, I've bought cars from CarMax before, for example, and the experience was great, not pushy, not threatening, just pleasant.

So while my comment may have been in jest, part of me does feel Tesla's missing a trick here.

Re:What?

[ryshon]

Keep telling yourself dealers don't make money on vehicle sales. That's why the exact same model/trim vehicle can be $5k different price depending on which dealer you buy it from and whether they include "mandatory" costs that are really just dealer markup hidden as manufacturer pass through. I think you may have not much experience with the all too common dealerships in the world. And this isn't Bob's cut-rate used dealership, I'm talking official brand endorsed dealerships for major manufacturers, Chevy, Kia, Honda etc.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

i've had the car 3 years and only had to service it once (for the "annual" service

Huh?
You would have had at least TWO service done. Third service upcoming.

Do YOU have first hand experience on this subject?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Such bullshit. Markup is $200? WTF??

The shit salesman makes more than $200 on a sale.

numbnuts

Re:What?

[apoc.famine]

The answer to that is no.

AmiMoJo has a hatred for Tesla that burns so bright that you could point him at a solar panel and use him to charge one.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing to find someone (AmiMoJo) who is so completely wrong about absolutely everything. Someone was dropped as a child, methinks...

Re: What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry but buying a 'service' plan at purchase just points you out as a moron, but you are still paying.

I bet you paid for undercoating and floor mats also.

numbnuts

Well of course it's no charge

[SuperKendall]

Instead of test drives, cars can be returned within 7 days or 1,000 miles at no charge

After a thousand miles driving, I'd say it's pretty obvious there's going to be no charge.

Re:Well of course it's no charge

[Anonymous Coward]

unless it is the new Roman Tesla MR

The big question

[Anonymous Coward]

will the bumpers fall off of these lower priced models, or are self-detaching body parts a "premium-only" feature?

Re:The big question

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, having parts that don't fall off are the premium feature. With the "basic" model, the passengers will have to hold on to the battery so that it doesn't fall off.

This is an important development, though, the first step to a system where they'll switch you from charging batteries to replacing them, reducing the time you spend waiting for the electric trickle-down.

^ This.

[Anonymous Coward]

They are legally mandated to either have a dealership or an authorized repair facility for warranty claims. Failure to do so can result in either the return of the vehicle at their cost, or expensive repair claims filed by the independent repair shop it was taken to instead. This applies to California for both new and used vehicles, although I don't know the specifics (basic knowledge of this is a requirement for the automotive repair industry in California if you plan to become smog certified.)

Hyundai Kona Electric

[ghoul]

The Hyundai Kona Electric is now available to order with deliveries on Mar 15. Its 37000 or 27000 after tax breaks in California. 260 Mi range and an SUV rather than a Sedan.
The only problem is its so much in demand even though the MSRP is 37000 dealers are charging 41000 as its a better car than the 42000$ Model 3.
Now that the 35000$ Tesla has got released maybe the price premium on the Kona Electric will go down
Thanks Elon. I was in 2 minds about the Kona Electric purchase. Your timely move will let me get it for $27K. (Note its still cheaper than the base model Model 3 as Hyundai gets the entire 10K tax break)

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[guruevi]

Is it a rich person tax break or a rich person discount? I've lived in full 3 bedroom houses worth the price of that car.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Rei]

LOL. Are people still pretending that the Kona is an "SUV"? Have you sat in the back seat? It's only suitable for amputees. It's a "CUV", which only describes form factor, not size.

The problem is not demand but production. They're making them in tiny quantities, because Hyundai earns basically nothing on its EVs.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[ghoul]

Yes it is a rich person tax break but then so does anything to do with the Green Movement - whether it is the National Park system which only the upper middle class can afford to go enjoy, the solar panel subsidies which only upper middleclass homeowners can afford or embassies all around the world to help stranded travellers (again dont think too many people working minimum wage jobs are travelling internationally)
A govts primary job is to protect the rich from the poor and shift as much money as possible from the working class to the owner class.
Why single out the EV tax breaks.
Just try and break into the owner class so that govt starts working for you and not against you.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[ghoul]

Obviously I have not sat in one as its not available to general public yet but all reviewers have given it much better reviews than Model 3 as far as internal space is concerned.
The SUV movement in the US is more about a high driving position with better visibility than any real Sport or Utility. Noone takes their SUVs offroading. THey take them to the Safeway and want to have a high driving position so that if they have an accident they are not in a sedan where the SUVs bumper might come into your windshield

Yes Hyundai earns very little from their EVs as they are selling a 50000 dollar car for 37000. They can afford to do it as their gas cars are subsidizing the EV. I have no problem other drivers subsidizing my car.
Tesla unfortunately for them has to make money on each car but thats not my problem.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[CohibaVancouver]

Is it a rich person tax break or a rich person discount? I've lived in full 3 bedroom houses worth the price of that car.

I agree that spending $41,000 on a car is crazy - But I suspect very few people walk into a dealership with a bank draft for $41K + sales taxes. Most of them either "lease" or finance over 84 months.

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, my wife and I only pay cash for cars. Granted, we usually set a ceiling of around $65k with some wiggle room based on whatever it is we like whenever either of us is going to buy one, but generally we stay below that ceiling anyway. Doing that is what enables us to not be poor slaves to debt.

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[CohibaVancouver]

Uh, my wife and I only pay cash for cars.

That may very well be, but as I said upthread "very few" people do this. You're one of the very few.

I suspect many posters here would also tell you it's sometimes penny-wise and pound foolish to spend $65K cash on a car when you can sometimes get 0.9% dealer financing. Finance the car, and put the $65K in the market earning 7% - That way the money is working for you.

Not all debt is equal.

(But you're going against my fundamental wiring anyway. To me, spending anything over $25K on transportation seems ridiculous.)

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

> and an SUV rather than a Sedan.
I'm confused, is that supposed to be an advantage?

If you wanted an SUV, why were you looking at the Model 3?
If you didn't want an SUV, then why would something being an SUV be a benefit?

(And that's without discussing whether or not its actually an SUV at all)

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

I get the low finance rates thing, but even if it is not mathematically perfect, having no debt is also quite satisfying.

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Doing that is what enables us to not be poor slaves to debt.

Well, that and having $65K cash in the first place.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it a rich person tax break or a rich person discount? I've lived in full 3 bedroom houses worth the price of that car.

I agree that spending $41,000 on a car is crazy - But I suspect very few people walk into a dealership with a bank draft for $41K + sales taxes. Most of them either "lease" or finance over 84 months.

I bought my 100D cash.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[drinkypoo]

Tesla unfortunately for them has to make money on each car but thats not my problem.

Munro & Assoc. claims that Tesla will make a profit even at $35k. They didn't start sooner because they had many customers at a higher price point, and more profit is better... plus they did need the money

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Save a lot instead of financing a lot and see what happens.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[drinkypoo]

Which was proven false. Tesla loses money on every car it has ever built.

Sure, after R&D and Capex, but what the rest of the class is talking about is whether the vehicle is profitable to make if you're accounting for current expenses, like materials, labor, power, and the like. Try to keep up. As long as they're making a day-to-day profit selling vehicles, which they are doing, they're making up their deficit.

Tesla has never made a profit in its entire existence

Sure.

and never will.

Possible.

They are gonna be out of business very soon now.

Trolls like you have been saying that for years now.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

And we’ve been proven right.

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you just waved away R&D and CapEx, which is actually the same thing, proving that you know nothing about finance. And Tesla is depreciating that CapEx at 30 years, which leads to some funny money in reality and short term profits per GAAP, since GAAP assumes they will be around for 30 years.

Hard dollars will win out in the end, regardless of good depreciation times spent on tents. :)

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Now available to order? Where and how?

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

You think poor people can't go to a national park?

I've been poor most of my life and have enjoyed national parks most of my life as well, entry is a half hour of work at minimum wage.
Even less with an annual pass and regular use.
I think my pass worked out to less than $1 per visit last year for my self. If you include the three + other people in my car it's so cheap it's in believable.

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[drinkypoo]

Well, you just waved away R&D and CapEx, which is actually the same thing, proving that you know nothing about finance.

R&D is CapEx if it turns out to be feasible, otherwise it's OpEx, why not just describe it separately? Especially since all the anti-Tesla trolls claim that none of it is feasible?

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Code Herder]

Its a question of perspective obviously. When I started working over 15 years ago I thought you had to be insane to pay over 15k for a car and we used to discuss what a stupid waste of money it was to spend so much to move from point a to point b. These day I own a long range model 3 and it wasnt that big of a purchase. It was a bit of an indulgence but nothing too crazy. Shit compared to the home loans I have for various tenements its nothing, Iâ(TM)m millions down the hole in loans ( yeah that still sounds bizare to me to say that but it only take a few building and before you know it..)

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Where was that? Nome Alaska? Or was that in 1955?

numbnuts

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[AmiMoJo]

The Niro is considerably bigger than the Model 3 though. It depends what you prefer - choice is good.

The limit on production is the number of batteries available. They already doubled this year from 20k to 40k, and LG is pushing to ramp that up even further.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[AmiMoJo]

Tesla said today that they are losing money now. They may eventually make a profit on $35k cars, once they get the service issues sorted out to reduce warranty costs, and further increase volume and manufacturing efficiency/yield.

Their real problem is the battery packs though. Cylindrical cells are not cheap and add significant extra weight. They need to switch to pouch to be competitive with Korean manufacturers on price per kWh, which means big investment and probably some significant patent licences.

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Sique]

On the other hand: people willing to pay cash tend to get better prices. So the potential money you would earn on that $65k while financing your car might be quite equal to the rebate you get for paying cash instead of financing.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol, keep with the programme. Your post is fully factually incorrect, maybe would have fooled some people 6 months ago but now just makes you look foolish.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Rei]

Obviously I have not sat in one as its not available to general public yet

What market are you in? Kona Electric has been out in Europe for quite a while.

Obviously I have not sat in one as its not available to general public yet but all reviewers have given it much better reviews than Model 3 as far as internal space is concerned.

Name one. I've been in in both. It's not even close.

The SUV movement in the US is more about a high driving position

No, a SUV is a large vehicle built on a truck frame. A CUV is a vehicle have a SUV-like form factor, but of any size (large or small) and with unibody construction.

I'm warning you for your own good: if you're waiting for the Kona because you're expecting it to be some "SUV", you're going to be seriously disappointed. This is the back seat.. Here's the size of the vehicle compared to a person. That doesn't mean "don't get the car". As far as non-Tesla EVs go, there's nothing "wrong" with it. But it's not an "SUV". Keep your expectations in check.

(Model 3, by contrast, is much larger inside than most people expect, particularly in the front).

BTW: If you're looking for an EV like the Kona (aka non-Tesla) whose back seat isn't cramped, I'd recommend the Kia Niro. Its front and trunk are pretty similar in size to the Kona, but its rear seat is much larger. Hyundai and Kia have a manufacturing partnership, so their vehicle lines are pretty similar.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Rei]

Tesla has never made a profit in its entire existence and never will.

Tesla has had positive gross margins for much of the past decade, and has been net profitable - despite reinvesting in an extremely rapid growth rate - for the past half year.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[AmiMoJo]

Their public statements to shareholders indicate that they do not expect to make a profit in the next six months, maybe the whole year.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[x0]

No, a SUV is a large vehicle built on a truck frame.

Not really. Might have been true ~20 years ago. Today, I believe the only truck framed SUVs still available new are the Toyota 4Runner and the truck based Suburban (and derivatives), the Expedition, and some Jeeps.

Everything else is unibody. Pickups are still body on frame due to towing capacity.

m

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Luthair]

The problem is not demand but production. They're making them in tiny quantities, because Hyundai earns basically nothing on its EVs. [goauto.com.au]

Coincidentally neither does Tesla ;)

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[ghoul]

Its not the entry fees. Its the fact people cant afford to miss the days of no wages to get to the park.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Oswald McWeany]

whether it is the National Park system which only the upper middle class can afford to go enjoy,

I go to National Parks BECAUSE I can't afford to go anywhere else. If you think you need to be wealthy to go to a National Park you're crazy. Some of the best places to go for those of us who don't have the money they would like.

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Oswald McWeany]

Its a question of perspective obviously. When I started working over 15 years ago I thought you had to be insane to pay over 15k for a car and we used to discuss what a stupid waste of money it was to spend so much to move from point a to point b.

These day I own a long range model 3 and it wasnt that big of a purchase. It was a bit of an indulgence but nothing too crazy. Shit compared to the home loans I have for various tenements its nothing, Iâ(TM)m millions down the hole in loans ( yeah that still sounds bizare to me to say that but it only take a few building and before you know it..)

Obviously what car people buy, and why they decide to buy it is an individual's decision and there are very few right or wrong answers.

However, multiple studies have shown that people's enjoyment of their car, and their satisfaction of their car is not related to how much they spend for their car. Customer satisfaction is no higher in higher priced cars than lower priced cars- nor is their expressed joy at driving more expensive cars. (yeah, I'm sure people will respond with personal anecdotes where they got a more expensive car and were happier... but overall there is no correlation for the population at whole).

I hope you enjoy your Tesla 3, I'd love to own an electric one day (or just a nicer car in general); but I think your initial thought wasn't necessarily wrong, owning a more expensive car isn't going to necessarily make your commute more enjoyable, although I hope in your case it does!

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not the entry fees. Its the fact people cant afford to miss the days of no wages to get to the park.

You seem to have this delusion that you are either rich or poor. It doesn't actually work that way.
You start earning paid days off long before you start earning enough to buy $40k second cars that can only go 200 miles.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[kenh]

I agree that spending $41,000 on a car is crazy - But I suspect very few people walk into a dealership with a bank draft for $41K + sales taxes.

Right, most people pay $41K + sales tax + interest, because they can't afford $41K + sales tax.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[short]

Except that Kona has no 4WD variant. Plus also it has 17% lower range.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

You've never heard of vacations?

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. That's marketing speak for...its only been profitable for the two quarters.

Fucking idiot.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[ghoul]

It has higher range than SR and SR+ while being 2000 and 4000 dollar cheaper. It has the same range as MR while being 10000 dollar cheaper. Only the LR has higher range which is 13000 dollar more expensive. For 13000 less I am willing to take a 260 Mile Range instead of a 310 mile range. Very few times will I drive more than 260 but less than 310 without a break.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[short]

Me not because in Europe we/I are driving 170km/h which when testing Tesla Model S 90D in winter has 50% of the EPA range. Then Kona has 485/2/2=121km for drive to capital and back without recharging (when I do just a quick pickup) and that is out of range for me. Model 3 LR AWD does make it fine. BTW Kona has 20.6% lower range (not 17% as I wrote) as one has to compare non-4WD with non-4WD (Kona would have also lower range when 4WD).

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[ghoul]

Your comment isnt very clear. Are you saying that the range of the Kona sold in Europe is 121 KM or around 80 mile? Thats not the official mileage on any review.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[short]

I did rent a Tesla and my real range was about 50% of its EPA range. Kona has EPA range 485km. If it behaves in high speed driving (175km/h) and winter conditions (around 0'C) the same as Tesla Model S (does it?) then its real winter fast drive range is about 242km. Therefore to drive to a city and back the city must be at most 121km away. The capital is for me 122km away, that is too tight for practical usage. Yes, I can drive slower but then it is often even colder than 0'C, one needs to drive some errands in the capital, one should keep at least 10% battery reserve (that is 109km range) etc. A bit more range of Tesla would satisfy me (but not so its price).

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[Anonymous Coward]

whether it is the National Park system which only the upper middle class can afford to go enjoy

Yeah, $20 for an entire family (or, if you don't drive, however much the bus trip costs), boy, only the upper class could afford that sort of thing!

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[ghoul]

You are saying because the Tesla did not perform upto spec the Kona wont? BTW the Kona has a battery heater so its performance doesnt fall that drastically in cold weather.

Re:Hyundai Kona Electric

[short]

The primary reason for the 50% range is apparently the speed. And Kona has even worse aerodynamics than Teslas. But then yes, I agree I haven't tested or seen appropriate review of Kona to say anything about its range under such conditions. Also Model S has both motors inductive compared to permanent magnet of Kona (or Model 3) etc. etc, too many variables.

How about lemon laws?

[guruevi]

Lemon and warranty laws allow you to return a car anywhere from 4 weeks to 3 months or even longer in some EU jurisdictions.

Not sure whether online sales get around local (sometimes down to city) laws but I'm sure 7 days won't fly in many places.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

But it has to be a lemon. If its not you're stuck with what you bought.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

The US has some pretty good lemon laws, depending on the state. Of course, like most consumer/labor protection laws, companies in the US tend to bank on people not knowing and enforcing their rights.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

The 7 days is not about lemons, you don't like it, your return it. They will still take it back later if it has repeated problems.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lemon Laws typically require that there be a problem with the car. They will still have to follow those laws. The 7 days is essentially a 7 day, 1000 mile window that you can back out of the purchase for no reason at all.

Some states have a return period on used car purchases, most of those are just 3 days. Typically new cars do not have a return period (due to the significant depreciation once sold). Lemon and return laws will supersede any company return policy.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lemon Laws typically require that there be a problem with the car.

Every car Tesla builds is a lemon.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every Tesla is a Lemon.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

How does that work with your loan company? Do you just call the bank and tell them to cancel the loan? No, you'll owe thousands more than the refund.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know right? LOL!

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

The purchase agreement likely covers this and gives "7* days" to return, where the * would have a footnote saying "or whatever the minimum is in your particular jurisdiction"

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thousands? Sounds like someone doesn't know how financing works. It will be interest for <= 7 days

numbnuts

Re:How about lemon laws?

[AmiMoJo]

In fact in the UK if you have bought a car online or have not had a test drive prior to receiving it you can reject it for any or no reason in the first two weeks.

It's still a hassle because there is paperwork, you might have finance or whatever, but you have that right.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

However, in principle the seller can charge you a reasonable fee for your use of the item for the time you had it. So I'd assume that if you return a car you bought online after 14 days, they could charge you the usual daily rental fee for that class of vehicle. I'd say the Tesla 7 day full refund offer is still good and useful on top of the rights provided by the distance selling regulations.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[pezpunk]

Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction in the industry, you dipshit.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sales tax. Good luck getting a refund on the sales tax from your state.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[kenh]

The "7 Day Return" is a no-questions-asked return, not a replacement for warranty/lemon laws. Warranty/lemon law returns are for cause, Tesla says it will take back a car you simply don't like/don't want to keep for no reason at all.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[jeff4747]

Have you never returned an item to any store?

'Cause you get your sales tax back.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

A friend returned his BMW 7 series under the CA lemon law after 2 years and 40k miles. Dealer didn't even argue. I think it was the third transmission that broke the camel's back.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[guruevi]

It depends though. In most states you can return a 'lemon' for pretty much any reason, even 'not meeting personal expectations' is a valid (argued in court) reason.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

So 1 car is all of them?

numbnuts

Re: How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet CR can't even recommend them because of all the issues. Funny how that works.

Asshole spends 40k+ on a car, wants to justify his bad decision, best decision I ever made folks.

Re:How about lemon laws?

[Anonymous Coward]

moron

You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Morgaine]

A car is something that most consumers want to sit in and explore in the showroom.

Apparently Tesla is giving potential customers 7 days of full possession and 1,000 miles of test drive instead, if I understood it correctly.

That seems enormously superior to sniffing around in a showroom for an hour, to me at least.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[LynnwoodRooster]

Until Tesla delivers you your "new" car that already has 954 miles on it because it was returned by a previous buyer... Oh wait, you don't want a used car?

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, the odometer will just say 5 miles.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

Which means they broke the law in rolling back the odometer.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

All new cars have a few dozen or sometimes a few hundred miles on the clock when you receive them, as they're driven with trade plates during commissioning.

You didn't think a new car arrives shrink-wrapped to your door for you to unbox, did you?

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Actually, I do RTFA]

You're assuming that the same car isn't returned more than once.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Miamicanes]

If Tesla were smart, they'd cut a deal with someone like Hertz or Avis, so that if you wanted to test-drive a Tesla, you could go rent one for a week (at some non-free price that would be considered a fair price if you were just renting it to drive for a week while traveling), then apply the price of up to 4 rental weeks from the past year to the purchase price of a Tesla if you decided to buy one.

IMHO, that would kill two birds with one stone... it would avoid the problems of dealing with returned cars from people who changed their minds (since the same cars would be rented over and over), while simultaneously drawing in potential buyers who might decide to rent a Tesla for a week while on vacation & decide that they absolutely LOVED it. It also minimizes the impact of regional availability... a family from a small town in North Dakota or Montana could rent a Tesla while vacationing in Orlando, Miami, or Las Vegas for a week just as easily as a family from Seattle or Atlanta. It also minimizes the risk to the people trying one out... if even a "normal" rental car in Miami is going to cost $200 for the week, and you can get a Tesla for $50-100 more, lots of people who might not have gone out of their way just to rent a Tesla in their hometown might say "fuck it, I'm on vacation, gimme the Tesla!"

Honestly, I think their BIGGEST problem would be supplying with the rental car company with enough cars to satisfy the demand. They probably WOULD have to start off for the first year or two by limiting it to just a couple of very popular vacation markets... say...

year 1: Orlando and Las Vegas

year 2: Miami, Washington DC, Los Angeles, Chicago

year 3: every remaining international airport in Florida, plus every city that currently HAS a Tesla showroom. I'd expect that over time, places like South Florida would probably have Tesla-equipped Avis/Hertz locations at BOTH the airport AND some off-airport suburban locations that seriously blurred the line between "rental car office" and "de-facto Tesla showroom".

Their biggest problem would be convincing Hertz or Avis to keep the cars in circulation for 2-3 years instead of replacing them all annually (since otherwise, Tesla would be struggling just to keep the rental car company fully supplied, let alone anyone else).

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Sounds like an unreasonable expectation. Who wouldn't expect an Odo-meter to show changeling results?

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[LynnwoodRooster]

I see them drive around here all the time (lots of Jags, Maseratis, Volvos, and Kias come in through the local port of Hueneme). But that's a few dozen miles - like on my wife's new 2015 Mustang (9 miles on the odometer). That's a bit different than 1000 miles...

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[LynnwoodRooster]

Even worse - it's been hammered for 300-400 miles by a few different people who just wanted to go out and lay a bunch of rubber for a full charge or two...

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[R3d M3rcury]

Except that you actually have to pay for it.

I mean, before I plunk down $35,000 for a car, I’d like to try it out first. Maybe take it for a test drive or something. And I don’t even want to think of the issues of financing that purchase and then deciding I don’t want the car...

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is their big problem. If they delivered the car, it is titled, and if it is titled, after return it is "used". Dealers can get away with test drives because the car is never titled. And once a few dozen people return cars after their weekend trips, Tesla is going to need to rethink their return policy. It is going to cost them a fortune.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol you live in a shithole and drive a shitmobile, no wonder.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[NFN_NLN]

"Your wife was a virgin when you met."

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[LynnwoodRooster]

instant 20% devaluation of their inventory... I guess since they're trying to cut the 20% costs of SG&A (dealerships), they can now spend it on used cars in inventory?

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

You get 7 days to return the "new" car too.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Apparently Tesla is giving potential customers 7 days of full possession and 1,000 miles of test drive instead"

It's not really a test drive, it's more of a 7-day no questions asked refund policy.

There's no way to try before you buy. You must buy and return for refund.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Erik Hensema]

Yes, buying an entire car just to evaluate the drive against competitors is a vastly superior to just going to a dealership and drive the thing for free.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Enzo1977]

Yes it is a genius idea. Until you factor in how disgusting rental cars are when returned and the amount of mechanical abuse rental cars receive. I would assume that Tesla would want to give the best possible impression to their customer as possible. Relying on a car that is managed by a rental agency as the quality representative for future sales is very risky.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

I think that's a great idea. I don't know if they are still doing it, but maybe 2-3 years ago Nissan announced a deal where they provided Nissan Leafs to Orlando rental car companies. Disney added a bunch of chargers on their properties and was involved in the deal. I had a Nissan Leaf on lease for 3 years to fill a need for a daily commune to work car while an older car I had was wearing down due to age and the stop and go traffic demands of my work commute. I loved the Leaf. My friends loved the Leaf. My girlfriend at the time loved the Leaf. Quite a few of my friends were impressed with it after riding in it. And for anybody who doesn't know, the Leaf is a lot less fancy than any Tesla model. I really believe if people tried electric cars, they'd become interested in the technology. It was costing me about $1 a day in electricity to charge the Leaf overnight for the next day. At current gasoline prices I'm probably paying about $6 a day in gasoline to drive to my job and back home. I really miss how cheap it was to charge the Leaf.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Oswald McWeany]

"Your wife was a virgin when you met."

Mine most certainly was!

  (she was still 14 when we met... we didn't date until 6 years after we met)

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[DarkOx]

What do you normally use rent-a-wreck or something? I rent a lot cars traveling for business and with very few exceptions the cars I get from Enterprise are fairly new, virtually never more than 3 years old, with impeccably cleaned interiors.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but you have to buy it first. Not good.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

Gotta love the Tesla Faithful modding down your legitimate observation as a "troll"! You are correc about wWhat will Tesla do with a car that's been driven 900 miles in 6 days I guess take a lot of write-downs for used vehicles. Or selling a lot of used cars and that will kill their new car sales.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[LynnwoodRooster]

Nothing like putting the top down and running up the coast to Avila Beach! Oh wait - Tesla doesn't have a convertible option... Too bad, Southern/Central Coast California is ideal for top-down cruising...

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[LynnwoodRooster]

(she was still 14 when we met...

Jerry Lee Lewis, is that you? (I kid, I kid! well, joke - NOT kid, that's just wrong...)

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Tesla owners casually give test rides, take time explain features to any one who would listen, and even to those who would not listen. They pitched in to volunteer to deliver cars at a crunch time at the end of 18Q2.

Dont worry, all those who want to test drive a Tesla before paying, will get enough volunteers. Tesla might actually tap into the Tesla Motor Club volunteers for it. One tweet from Elon, you will have several thousand people willing to give test drives, far more than any dealership network can offer.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont worry, all those who want to test drive a Tesla before paying, will get enough volunteers. Tesla might actually tap into the Tesla Motor Club volunteers for it. One tweet from Elon, you will have several thousand people willing to give test drives, far more than any dealership network can offer.

Unfortunately, 140Mandak62Jamuna can only volunteer test drives on his 3 inch micropenis(guys only please, he's not attracted to females), since his Tesla Model 3 exists only in his mind.
Not that his mind is particularly useful, as he at various time claimed he either paid $50k or later on $55k for his nonexistent Tesla Model 3.

Re:You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead!

[haruchai]

Well played

The death nail for Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

No way they'll be turning a profit on these low-priced models. But Musk painted them into a corner by promising them. So now they will burn through cash even quicker. Each delivery will be like burning a dozen C notes.

Closing stores, stashing per unit prices. Bye bye, Musky.

CR gave a 'cannot recommend'

[Anonymous Coward]

For the 3 and X due to reliability. Are they sexy? Yeah, but I cant get a decent working tablet and I really want a company that makes a car around a tablet.

Re:CR gave a 'cannot recommend'

[Rei]

CR also rated Model 3 as having the highest owner satisfaction of any car on the market.

As for the "reliability", when CR's methodology was challenged on their Reddit AMA, the CR guy responded, "Appreciate the feedback. Let me see what we can do. Breaking up the stuff that makes you break down on the side of the road is certainly more severe." CR themselves explicitly stated that the drivetrain was reliable; they marked the car down for paint and trim, with no attempt to control for the obvious bias that the more FUD there is against a vehicle, the more intensely buyers will examine their vehicle - and most new vehicles have some paint defects (which is why the first step of applying PPF is paint correction - it's just that most owners never notice it until the detailer points it out).

Re:CR gave a 'cannot recommend'

[sunking2]

I actually think the 3 is ugly and cheap looking.

Re:CR gave a 'cannot recommend'

[Anonymous Coward]

Owner satisfaction tends to be a meaningless rating, especially on luxury items. Many studies have shown that if you take the exact same item and charge 1 person X, and another person 2X, the person who paid 2X will be more satisfied with it even though it's literally the same thing as person 1 got.

This is not new. At one time BMW had the highest owner satisfaction even though their cars broke down more than any other brand on the road. People will convince themselves that they made a wise purchase, and the more expensive a thing is, the more they will convince themselves. This has also been shown with organic produce. In a blind taste test, most people can't tell the difference between organic and regular produce, but once informed, they will talk about how the organic one tasted better.

Re:CR gave a 'cannot recommend'

[Luthair]

CR also rated Model 3 as having the highest owner satisfaction of any car on the market.

Most cult members like their choices too

Goodbye physical stores.

[Chas]

Turns out that the stores were nothing but a problem for everyone involved.

Basically it didn't allow Tesla to play quite as fast and loose with it's customers as Tesla would like.

Re: You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you just order one a week and keep returning the previous one for a free car forever? This seems like a sustainable business model.

How is it "better"?

[SuperKendall]

260 Mi range and an SUV rather than a Sedan.

Does it have AWD, or even an option? Doesn't seem ike it from the specs.

Any quick charge ability? Again reading through the product page, seems like an overnight charge,

6.2 inches of ground clearance - Just 0.3 inches more than a MINI countrman, 0.7 more than a model 3 so claiming it is "an SUV" is kind of misleading.

60 mph in 6.4 seconds.

Not sure in what way this car is actually better, except maybe a bit more interior cargo space. By any other metric it is not as good or useful.

As someone else said in another comment, without some approach to long range quick charging it's not a viable option for a lot of people (though I guess you could buy a Kona Electric for everyday use, then a Tesla for roadtrips and return it).

Re:How is it "better"?

[ghoul]

It has level 3 charge which mean 80% and 200 miles in 34 minutes. Overnight is level 2 if you dont have access to a fast charger.

It has heated and cooled seats. A heads up display. Actual dials . I drove a friends Model 3 and it is very disconcerting to have to look to your right as there are no dials where we have grown up expecting them to be.

Rear visibility. The Model 3 is really difficult to get a clear rear view even if you turn around due to the sloping roof. Ye it does have a camera but I grew up driving cars without a rear camera and still find the reduced rear visibility disconcerting

Also the mPGe is higher which means Hyundais electric drivetrain is more efficient than Teslas and can get more range out of the same battery pack

It has 260 miles and access to CCS and ChargeAmerica so it is pretty much a better long range car than a Tesla MR for 10000 dollars less.

And if you are doing a long 400 mile drive would you rather do it in a cramped sedan or a SUV with more legspace.

The Model 3 is OK for short distances but for long distance drives it will give you blood clots.

Re:How is it "better"?

[whoever57]

It has level 3 charge which mean 80% and 200 miles in 34 minutes.

If you can use one of the handful of 150kW (or above) chargers currently installed across the USA. Otherwise, it's going to take a lot longer.

I drove a friends Model 3 and it is very disconcerting to have to look to your right as there are no dials where we have grown up expecting them to be.

You get used to the display position very quickly. Besides, some of us got used to driving the original Minis.

Also the mPGe is higher which means Hyundais electric drivetrain is more efficient than Teslas and can get more range out of the same battery pack

Only in town. Model 3 has higher efficiency at freeway speeds and higher overall MPGe.

It has 260 miles and access to CCS and ChargeAmerica so it is pretty much a better long range car than a Tesla MR for 10000 dollars less.

There are very few CCS chargers that deliver more than 50kW, so charging is typically going to be slower than any Tesla. Also, those chargers are not as convenient for road tripping -- they are much more likely to be in a city than along a highway. When I looked last year, there were large cities in the USA that you could not get to in a Chevy Bolt, without charging for hours at a level 2 charger. It's getting better, but has a long way to go before it matches the Supercharger network

And if you are doing a long 400 mile drive would you rather do it in a cramped sedan or a SUV with more legspace.

There is plenty of legroom in a Model 3. It's one of the very few cars that I have driven in which I don't put the seat all the way back.

Re:How is it "better"?

[SuperKendall]

It has heated and cooled seats

So does the Model 3.

I drove a friends Model 3 and it is very disconcerting to have to look to your right

I drive a MINI with the speedometer in the middle of the dash, that is not a problem at all after a day or two.

It has 260 miles and access to CCS and ChargeAmerica

That range is OK although personally for a long road trip I think 300 would be a minimum, especially as you drain the car for various uses (like seat heaters).

I'm glad they have something but it still seems like Tesla has a much more expansive quick-charging network.

Rear visibility. The Model 3 is really difficult to get a clear rear view

I'll believe that when I see it as ALL new cars have incredibly poor rear visibility now, sloping roof or not.

In fact I do not believe it at all when I look at the rear shots of the Kona Electric (about fourth image from top), that is a tinier rear area to see through even than the Model 3 (especially with the roof being glass)! It is the typical no-visibility rear view window you find on every crossover SUV today.

And if you are doing a long 400 mile drive would you rather do it in a cramped sedan or a SUV with more legspace.

The Model 3 has a lot of leg space (my friend has one), these small crossover SUV's can often be worse depending on how they have allocated the cargo area.
I can tell you for sure I'd rather be in a Model 3 than a Rav4 for example....

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

Keep in mind that you need to compare with the $35k Model 3, which is similarly priced.

I'm glad I cancelled my Model 3 pre-order now and got a Kia Niro. It's similar to the Kona. The comparison is about what I expected.

Model 3 Pros
+ Slightly more sporty performance
+ Supercharger access

Cons
- Lower range
- Smaller (https://youtu.be/2OM1UsEAPe4)
- Very noisy (https://youtu.be/GzQdkwmq78s)
- Not so good (auto wipers are jank) in the rain (https://youtu.be/hCv_Ha0oWjE)
- Touch only controls for a lot of essential stuff
- Cloth seats, manual adjust
- No heated seats/wheel
- No autopilot
- Forced updates

Sue you can upgrade to fix some of that stuff, but then you are paying tens of thousands more. Also it's not available on RHD countries until some time in 2020 anyway. Niro coming next month.

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

Oh and to answer your question, it can charge at 100kW.

The shape is a CUV, kinda sub SUV but you get a hatch back (Model 3 rear door is very small and lets water in) and it's taller and easier to get in and out of.

Re:How is it "better"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Rear visibility. The Model 3 is really difficult to get a clear rear view even if you turn around due to the sloping roof. Ye it does have a camera but I grew up driving cars without a rear camera and still find the reduced rear visibility disconcerting

Especially on some rentals I've had recently where inclement weather meant that back-up camera lens was constantly getting dirty and needed to be cleaned off at every damn stop along the road trip.

Re:How is it "better"?

[drinkypoo]

Manual cloth seats are a bonus. Leather (or more commonly, "Nappa Leather", aka plastic) looks nicer, but it's inferior in every other way.

Touch controls suck, though

Re: How is it "better"?

[Code Herder]

Yeah honestly I wasnt too sure about the touch controls but now when I use my wife volt instead of the model 3 the buttons everywhere feel kind of quaint. I really prefer touch now.

Re: How is it "better"?

[drinkypoo]

Yeah honestly I wasnt too sure about the touch controls but now when I use my wife volt instead of the model 3 the buttons everywhere feel kind of quaint. I really prefer touch now.

It's perfectly reasonable for automakers to put touch controls into vehicles right now, because they seem modern and cool. But they are actually inferior, because you have to look at the screen. They will make all the sense in the world in self-driving cars, but as long as you're responsible for driving, they are a horrible idea from the standpoint of people who don't want to die.

Re:How is it "better"?

[Anonymous Coward]

whoever57...aren't you that loser faking that you own a Tesla Model 3, just to try to impress your gay tranny crush Rei?

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

If you can use one of the handful of 150kW (or above) chargers currently installed across the USA. Otherwise, it's going to take a lot longer.

Same is true for the Model 3 in Europe. Even once they finish rolling out CCS chargers to Tesla locations, they are still very sparce or non-existent in many places.

Model 3 has higher efficiency at freeway speeds and higher overall MPGe.

Kona and M3 are about equal on the highway for efficiency. In any case, at highway speeds the Kona gives you significantly better range.

There is plenty of legroom in a Model 3.

There is. The main issues are it being quite low compared to CUV shape cars like the Kona, and that the boot/trunk entrance is very narrow which limits its utility.

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

Kona and Niro have real leather, much nicer. Also heated and ventilated seats for the same price as the base M3 that lacks them.

Re: How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

There can be a balance between the number of buttons and the number of touch-screen functions. The M3 doesn't have enough buttons, e.g. you have to use the screen to adjust the windscreen wipers (the auto function is janky) which is clearly a terrible idea. Reduced visibility and you are forced to fiddle with the touch screen.

Re:How is it "better"?

[Luthair]

Does it have AWD, or even an option? Doesn't seem ike it from the specs.

Speaking as a Canadian - basically no one needs AWD, just buy appropriate tires.

6.2 inches of ground clearance - Just 0.3 inches more than a MINI countrman, 0.7 more than a model 3 so claiming it is "an SUV" is kind of misleading.

Its a cross-over which is the most popular car type these days /shrug

Not sure in what way this car is actually better

Well, it comes from a real car manufacturer with a proven record of reliability. So you know it won't arrive with say a wheel different than the others and be in constant need of repairs.

As someone else said in another comment, without some approach to long range quick charging it's not a viable option for a lot of people (though I guess you could buy a Kona Electric for everyday use, then a Tesla for roadtrips and return it).

Their site says an hour to 80% /shrug

Re: How is it "better"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was sure you were lying, but holy fuck it really is that stupid (see page 53, or 55 depending on how your viewer operates). No twisty thing to adjust the intermittent frequency, only 2 options for intermittent frequency, and instead of lifting up on the lever for a manual wipe like on every other vehicle on the market you press a button on the end of it. And is it seriously not possible to turn the wipers on/off with the lever? And why the hell is all this on the left lever and not the right? Do Tesla's not have a lever on the right?

Seriously, who the fuck thought that was a good design?

Re:How is it "better"?

[kenh]

Most SUVs never go off-road, people like them because they are the new station wagon - it's about cargo and passenger capacity, not ground clearance.

Re:How is it "better"?

[whoever57]

Kona and M3 are about equal on the highway for efficiency.

No, they are not. The M3 is better..

In any case, at highway speeds the Kona gives you significantly better range.

At real highway speeds (70-75 mph), I suspect that won't be true. The Model 3 is outstanding at high speed efficiency, much better than any other EV.

Are you posting here because you will actually buy a Kona, or because you have an irrational hate for Tesla?

Re:How is it "better"?

[painandgreed]

I drive a MINI with the speedometer in the middle of the dash, that is not a problem at all after a day or two.

I'm sure it depends on the person. My girlfriend's car has a center mounted speedometer and I drive it about every other week, including on 1500 mile road trips because she doesn't like to drive and I do. Can't stand it. Wouldn't mind a Tesla, but got in one and knew I'd never buy one just because of the center dash speedo. Perhaps if they get a HUD on the windshield in the future.

Re:How is it "better"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy a used Cayenne instead.

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

Real world tests show little difference in efficiency between the Kona and M3. And of course the Kona battery a lot bigger.

I had a Model 3 reservation but cancelled it and bought a Niro instead. Too many problems with the M3, too long to wait, and the spec is too low unless you spend a lot upgrading it. The Niro is all round better value and (for me) a better vehicle - the tiny boot of the M3 is a particular problem.

What pissed me off about Tesla is the constant bullshitting. Like now they are selling "Full Self Driving" again, but it's not. It's the same level 2 stuff they already have, plus a few new tricks, but it's not self driving. You still have to have a qualified driver paying attention, hands on the wheel. It was originally sold as "you can summon the car from the other side of the country, and it will make its way home, charging along the way". They sold that to people starting in 2016 and haven't come close to delivering it.

Maybe I do have a bit of animosity, but only because the fans are getting as bad an the Apple ones. The Model 3 is a decent car, depending on your needs, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

Re:How is it "better"?

[haruchai]

"Real world tests show little difference in efficiency between the Kona and M3. And of course the Kona battery a lot bigger."
?? The Kona is supposed to have a 64 kWh battery & while Tesla hasn't confirmed it, Model 3 teardowns show the pack to be ~75 kWh capacity.

Re:How is it "better"?

[DamnOregonian]

My girlfriend has a mini too. That center mounted speedo annoys the fuck out of me, even after driving the car on and off for a decade.
Fortunately, you can setup the little dash computer to show digital speedo.

Re:How is it "better"?

[DamnOregonian]

I drive a MINI with the speedometer in the middle of the dash, that is not a problem at all after a day or two.

Still bugs the fuck out of me after a decade.
The dash computer can be set to show digital readout though.

Re:How is it "better"?

[DamnOregonian]

I was interested in reading your comparison until I got to....

+ Slightly more sporty performance

That is worse than categorically false.
The lowest-end Model 3 is a Ferrari compared to the Niro.
Why'd you have to make shit up?

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

Let's see, 5.6 seconds vs. 6.4 seconds for the Kona, Niro still to be determined but likely very similar. So 0.8 seconds faster.

Arguably it's lower and the suspension is tuned for sport rather than comfort too.

I'm sure to you this is a massive, world-changing difference that makes every car which can only do 5.60001 seconds or slower total shit not worthy of scraping off your shoe, but for most people both are pretty quick.

I love the way they make a big deal of the top speed being 130 MPH too. Over 100 and it's instant disqualification, licence revoked. Very important, that stat.

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

The £35k Model 3 is expected to have around 50kWh. To get the 75kW you need to upgrade to the longer range one for tens of thousands of dollars. Hardly a reasonable or fair comparison.

Model 3 Short Range is officially 220 miles range EPA, Kona is 260. EPA tends to be representative of motorway driving, but even consistently doing 75 isn't going to close that gap. Bjorn Nyland has tested both at that speed to confirm.

Re:How is it "better"?

[DamnOregonian]

Let's ask the authorities. You're comparing a car that runs low-mid 13 second quarters with a car that runs high 16 second quarters.

Arguably it's lower and the suspension is tuned for sport rather than comfort too.

No, it fucking is not. You are again making shit up. The Niro has a ground clearance of 6.1 inches vs. 5.5 for the model 3.

I love the way they make a big deal of the top speed being 130 MPH too. Over 100 and it's instant disqualification, licence revoked.

I see, so what you meant to say was, "Slightly less sporty, where you define that as exercising sporty driving only under that which the law strictly allows on public roadways."
But even then were still wrong.

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

Just to be clear, but "lower" I am referring to the Model 3, which as you say is about 2.5 cm closer to the ground, but more importantly the body shape is smaller with a lower roof (1400mm vs 1560mm for the Niro). The seating position is lower to match, otherwise there wouldn't be much head room.

Re:How is it "better"?

[DamnOregonian]

Look, I'm not a Tesla fanboy. I have driven my coworkers Model 3, and loved it.
I've also driven my girlfriend's mom's Prius and loved it.
I own a 5 liter Mustang GT. I love it. (Though that steering ratio seriously needs to fucking go)
The Niro looks like a fantastic car- especially when you look at the luxury features they jam in there per buck.
That's why I was interested in reading your comparison.

But the performance and sportiness of those 2 vehicles are as far apart as my car and a Toyota Corolla. And that's fine.
The Niro looks to cram about as much goodies into it as a 50k model 3 for a fraction of the price. Which is pretty awesome. But the performance comparison made it hard to read anything else you wrote, because those two vehicles aren't playing the same sport. Or more accurately, one of them is driving the other to the field to play sports. Which is again, absolutely fine. I don't think there's a large market for fast crossovers.

Re:How is it "better"?

[AmiMoJo]

So what is creating the difference in performance here? The 0-60 time isn't much slower, by all accounts the Niro's handling isn't bad in the EV version due to the low centre of mass and tuned up suspension. What creates this huge gulf you are talking about?

Anyway, I'll let you know how it performs when I get mine.

Kona? Fuck off with that weak shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Kona is not an SUV. It is a tall version of a small compact. An SUV is something like a Surburban.

Screaming deal!

[Anonymous Coward]

I paid $110k for my loaded 2015 Tesla Model S 85D. It's been a revelation of automotive engineering. To get most of the value for $35k in 7/8th sized 1000lb lighter updated version of that car is an *incredible* deal. It should be fun to watch the well funded anti-Tesla forces try to respond

Re: Screaming deal!

[Anonymous Coward]

LOLOLOL!! Another sucker.

Re:Seven days, 1000 miles?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Do Teslas even have an odometer? Does Teslaplan on resetting it to 0 and shipping these cars as "new"?

Yes, I'd prefer to get a car with a 1000 miles on it if that meant I got a significant discount (the 25%+ lost when a car drives off the lot). I can also imagine people buying a Tesla when they need a car for a month with 100% intention to return it.

1-minute Financing? Credit impact?

[bill_mcgonigle]

This may be easy for millionaires but taking a hard credit inquiry to do a test drive? Is Tesla planning to abandon the argument that the Model 3 is a sensible middle-class vehicle?

Re: 1-minute Financing? Credit impact?

[c6gunner]

I don't understand your objection. If your credit is that shit, how are you going to buy the car anyway?

Re:Seven days, 1000 miles?

[bill_mcgonigle]

20% off with 1000 miles on it? Yes, please.

Re:Seven days, 1000 miles?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to pay the full nut up front and then deal with unwinding the transaction after you return it. Very few people will be taking one for a weekend joyride, despite Musk's assertions.

Re: You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead

[LynnwoodRooster]

Well, like in the old DotCom days, yeah - they lose money on each transaction, but they make it up in volume!

I've already got one- the long range model 3 w/

[Anonymous Coward]

full self driving.

Well worth the ~$60k. Obsidian black without the performance package.

Re:Seven days, 1000 miles?

[istartedi]

IANAL, but since so many laws are out there regarding odometers and how they are set, I don't believe it's legally possible to market a car without one. Rolling back the odometer would definitely get them in all kinds of trouble.

The only car that wouldn't have one might be something vintage from the early 20th or late 19th century that's grandfathered in. Even a custom car has to pass inspection and needs to make some kind of statement on the title regarding miles driven. Not being able to make that statement dramatically reduces the value unless it's something super rare like the 1st Benz. Maybe top fuel dragsters don't have them, but let's see you take that to the grocery store..

Re: 1-minute Financing? Credit impact?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Look up hard credit inquiries then.

Most middle class people have credit that is neither shit nor perfect and they finance their cars. Taking a years-long hit to your credit score to take a test drive is stupid.

Re:1-minute Financing? Credit impact?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please explain what is wrong with a credit enquiry? How does it affect you negatively? Absolutely not at all!

Re: 1-minute Financing? Credit impact?

[c6gunner]

For the vast majority of those with a decent credit rating your "hard inquiry" will either not affect their score at all or will budge it a few points. Again, I don't see the problem. Credit inquiries are only an issue for those with a lot of debt (or those who have applied for a whole bunch of loans and then backed out for some stupid reason).

People get paranoid about this stuff but it's all based on a poor understanding of the system. I'm firmly middle class myself and have a credit score up over 820. When I do apply for new credit, my score tends to drop 5-10 points tops, for a few months, before bouncing back. Not exactly something to get wound up about. If I were stupid enough to get 5 new credit cards all at once it might drop down to the low 700s, but even that wouldn't impact me in any real way.

The SEC has destabilized Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Beside the changes announced in this post, my neighbor down the street took "early retirement" from Tesla last month.

I think what has happened is the Securities and Exchange Comission punishment and fines applied to Elon Musk a couple of months ago have destabilized the Tesla car organization. The SEC should realize they took away Tesla's short term working capital with the fine and they damaged the willingness of creditors to support the early manufacturing system de-bugging costs.

The SEC has made a huge mistake and they should reverse their actions. Maybe the problem is in the SEC, it constitutionally can't administer moderate control.

220 Miles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus fucking christ, my 20 year old Acura can go 500 miles on a tank of fuel on the highway. I can go nearly 7 hours without stopping. I couldn't imagine taking a road trip in anything that could do less than say 450. 220, then an hour long charge? So 3 hours then stop for an hour? Fuck this shit, fuck Tesla, and fuck electric cars. What a bunch of bullshit.

Re:220 Miles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh good. Someone who drives 7 hours without stopping and already sounds like an unhinged lunatic. You are a reification of road safety, arentcha?

Re:220 Miles?

[Luthair]

So rent a car for a road trip, or think about how much time you're not spending at the gas station the rest of the time.

Re:Seven days, 1000 miles?

[Anonymous Coward]

There will definitely not be fine print in the contract. Definitely not.

Re: 1-minute Financing? Credit impact?

[shilly]

You're applying the wrong mindset to this. You're assuming people will test drive Teslas the way they test drive other cars. Tesla is obviously making a big bet that they can change this process without materially affecting sales. They may be wrong on this, but they'll have some data to support their approach, I'm sure. This is not about test driving a Tesla; this is about a no-quibble guarantee for people who have purchased a Tesla. The intention is to provide peace of mind on a sight unseen sale. The aim is to have most sales being like buying tech online -- simple, with a configurator, no price negotiations to add stress, and the product arriving on your doorstep a few days later.

130mph is too slow.

[Futurepower(R)]

"SR: $35K, 220 miles, 130mph, 5.6 seconds, non-PUP"

Joke: It can only go a maximum of 130mph? Too slow. I'm not buying one.

Re:130mph is too slow.

[sad_]

except for german autobahn there is nowhere i can drive legally faster then 130mph.
even the 5.6 second accel is way too fast (for most people).

Re:130mph is too slow.

[b0bby]

You should get the $37k one, it does 140.

Re: You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never seen a new car delivered with more than a few km on the odometer. They usually arrive on a car transporter with lots of plastic wrapping shortly before delivery.

Touch is best

[Anonymous Coward]

Touch is way better than buttons and dials. knobs are for losers
--
WindBourne

Online purchase only? seriously?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Tesla has just shot itself in the foot by closing all the stores. For most a car is the second biggest purchase besides a house. People want to kick tires so to speak, test drive, actually see it in person. They also want the comfort if they purchase the vehicle that there is a place to get service and repairs. Yeah, big red flag that this is bad sign for Tesla and one wonders how soon before he starts nixing other support.

Saving money

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla could save a lot of money by prohibiting Elon Musk from ever using Twitter. Rip the freaking smartphone from Musk's hands before he does another disastrous tweet.

Re:Seven days, 1000 miles?

[Reemi]

In most European cars, the odometer is associated with the engine. If you change the engine, you are allowed to change the odometer to the distance run with the new engine.

Possibly we'll see some changes in law as the odometer probably better be replaced with a device showing the power provided by the battery.

Re: You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead

[jeff4747]

The web site indicates you can only do it once.

TruCoat

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but I'm saying that TruCoat - You don't get it, you get oxidation problems!

Re: You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead

[Anonymous Coward]

How many 4 door vehicles have a "convertible option"?

Re: You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you just order one a week and keep returning the previous one for a free car forever? This seems like a sustainable business model.

Ah yes, the "Steve Jobs lease."

Re: You get a 7-day, 1,000-mile evaluation instead

[LynnwoodRooster]

None that I know of! Another strike against the Tesla...