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Missing Out On Deep Sleep Causes Alzheimer's Plaques to Build Up (discovermagazine.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the brain-drain dept.

"Deep, non-REM sleep helps people's brains to wash away toxic proteins and waste, a new study found, reinforcing the link between sleep deprivation, aging and Alzheimer's disease," reports U.S. News & World Report.

Or, as Discover magazine puts it, "Getting enough deep sleep might be the key to preventing dementia." The discovery reinforces how critical quality sleep is for brain health and suggests sleep therapies might curb the advance of memory-robbing ailments, like Alzheimer's disease... Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) churns through a system of brain tunnels piped in the spaces between brain cells and blood vessels. Scientists call it the glymphatic system. This system circulates nutrients like glucose, the brain's primary energy source, and washes away potentially toxic waste. And it may be the reason why animals even need sleep. The system takes out the brain's trash when we're asleep, and it shuts down when we're awake.

Maiken Nedergaard, a neurologist at the University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, who led the new research, and her team were curious if the system works best and clears more waste -- like Alzheimer's causing beta amyloid plaque -- when animals are in deep sleep. To find out, the researchers used six different anesthetics to put mice into deep sleep. Then they tracked cerebrospinal fluid as it flowed into the brain. As the mice slept, the researchers watched the rodents' brain activity on an electroencephalograph, or EEG, and recorded the animals' blood pressures and heart and respiratory rates. Mice anesthetized with a combination of two drugs, ketamine and xylazine, showed the strongest deep sleep brain waves and these brain waves predicted CSF flow into the brain, the researchers found.
The lead researcher now argues that focusing on sleep in the early stages of dementia "might be able to slow progression of the disease."

103 comments

  1. Mankind wastes too much of... by EzInKy · · Score: 1

    ...their lives on sleep.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    1. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go back to sleep, nobody in this mankind is missing your "contribution"

    2. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by Shikaku · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not a waste of time, otherwise evolution would have removed it. There's a number of species that sort of remove sleep effectively: aquatic mammals/some birds sleep with half their brain and with one eye closed for mostly avoiding being eaten while asleep and for the aquatic mammals to be able to breathe; however they are still sleeping, so it is required in ways we don't fully understand yet, and TFA might be a clue.

    3. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      ...their lives on sleep.

      Similarly, my computer wastes too much of its time on wait states. That's why I've cranked my DRAM timing to` the mini/MUm# (A32X.$$ [F/3x ., . [F/3x ., . .-..

    4. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not a waste of time, otherwise evolution would have removed it.

      That's not how evolution works. All sorts of animals develop behaviors that could be described as a "waste of time" but evolution doesn't necessarily remove them. "Survival of the fittest" is a backward way of looking at evolution. A better perspective is "death of the unfit." An organism can develop all sorts of useless traits as long as they don't have such a negative impact on survival that the species goes extinct.

      Having said that, sleep is definitely a trait that is required for human survival, but it has nothing to do with preventing Alzheimers. Sleep is just required for the brain to function. Dementia occurs after the breeding age so there can't really be any direct selective pressure for or against it.

    5. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It's not a waste of time, otherwise evolution would have removed it. There's a number of species that sort of remove sleep effectively: aquatic mammals/some birds sleep with half their brain and with one eye closed for mostly avoiding being eaten while asleep and for the aquatic mammals to be able to breathe; however they are still sleeping, so it is required in ways we don't fully understand yet, and TFA might be a clue.

      Well, first thing is that unless sleep is the one exception in variance, it isn't likely that every single human needs the exact same amount of sleep. In addition modern health practices have taken many people into an age when evolution doesn't matter that much. Another way of saying that more people live longer, but the extremes are still pretty much the same - the longest lived have a genetic predisposition.

      Regardless, if this study is any indication, I've been dead about 20 years now, as I only sleep 5 hours a night, and dream a lot.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    6. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by careysub · · Score: 1

      Sleep does many, many things.

      There is a natural evolutionary process that makes it so. Of all the many metabolic processes your body conducts some of them will be done more efficiently when the organism is quiescent. If there is a quiescent period as part of a diurnal cycle, those processes will migrate to being normally conducted during this period. For example (to pick one that is easy to relate to) muscle growth normally occurs during sleep. It is easy to see how cellular changes would be more efficiently conducted while the muscle is resting and more than you would (car analogy) repair a motor while it is running.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    7. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dementia occurs after the breeding age so there can't really be any direct selective pressure for or against it.

      Males can breed pretty late.
      At 102 I would say that James E. Smith got children at an older age than most cases of dementia sets in.

      Now someone will quip in that the average lifespan was much shorter for most of our evolution.
      It could be worth keeping in mind that the average was so low mostly because of child/infant mortality.
      If you lived past the age of 15 then getting to an age that is considered old in modern times wasn't that odd.

    8. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      " but it has nothing to do with preventing Alzheimers"

      Says random internet guy. Clearly, unless we're experts on the topic, and you're not, we shouldn't even have an opinion on this until further study is completed.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    9. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      It's not a waste of time, otherwise evolution would have removed it.

      No. That isn't how evolution works. It does not seek maximum efficiency. If it did, you and I couldn't even imagine the form that life would take at this point in history.
      Evolution seeks only to survive. If a trait is not harmful enough to affect your fitness function, it won't be selected against. Furthermore, even if it does, it may not necessarily every be successfully selected against- it may simply be selected *around*.

    10. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      Random internet guy has demonstrated logic, while all you demonstrated is an ability to deflect from your inability to think critically with an ad hominem argument.

    11. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      Sure males can breed pretty late. But evolution concerns itself very little with the 99th percentile.

    12. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Wow, you call what he stated logic...SMH. He demonstrated nothing other than random items of basic evolution, and proved nothing to negate the study. Again, unless you're an expert on the topic...and you also clearly are not or you'd understand actual logic, we shouldn't be judging until additional studies are done.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    13. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      Wow, you call what he stated logic...SMH.

      Of course I call it logic... it was literally a logical train of thought in the form of an argument. What the fuck would you call it?

      He demonstrated nothing other than random items of basic evolution

      Demonstrated random items of basic evolution? My apologies if you're not a native English speaker, but I'm not sure what you're actually trying to say right there.

      and proved nothing to negate the study.

      Wait what? The discussion wasn't about the study. The study was about the affects of CSF cleaning during deep sleep. The further discussion outside of the scope of the paper was whether or not this was an evolutionary process.

      Again, unless you're an expert on the topic...

      Oh boy. An inverse argument from authority?
      You're just full of the fallacious arguments today, aren't you?

      and you also clearly are not or you'd understand actual logic, we shouldn't be judging until additional studies are done.

      Ok, so again, you can't address a single point in the argument, and have to instead attack his standing to argue (and mine?)
      You sir, are an idiot. Go take a debate class. Or any fucking class.

    14. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm the AC you responded to above (I moderated).

      I think you misunderstood my argument. It was not engaging with the study, it was engaging with the poster above me. Having reread my post, I did use an unfortunate sentence structure which caused the miscommunication. I wasn't claiming that sleep can't have the effect of preventing Alzheimers. You are correct that more research would need to be done to reach a conclusion.

      What I was arguing was that sleep isn't a trait that evolved for the specific purpose of preventing Alzheimers. That might be a beneficial side-effect of sleep, but natural selection wouldn't eliminate sleep even if it caused dementia because we need sleep to function. For example, koalas can only live so long because they grind away their teeth chewing on leaves all day. If they manage to live to be old koalas, they no longer have teeth and they starve to death. The point is that natural selection is usually irrelevant once one is beyond the child-rearing years.

      unless we're experts on the topic, and you're not, we shouldn't even have an opinion

      I know I'm a random internet guy, but I actually am an expert on this topic. Unfortunately, like everyone, I am prone to the occasional syntactic ambiguity.

    15. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1
      AC said:

      sleep is definitely a trait that is required for human survival, but it has nothing to do with preventing Alzheimers

      so the discussion was very much about the study.

    16. Re:Mankind wastes too much of... by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1
      Only indirectly, as the study says sleep seems to help slow the progression of Alzheimer's. It does not speculate on its evolutionary origin.
      AC also said:

      That's not how evolution works. All sorts of animals develop behaviors that could be described as a "waste of time" but evolution doesn't necessarily remove them. "Survival of the fittest" is a backward way of looking at evolution. A better perspective is "death of the unfit." An organism can develop all sorts of useless traits as long as they don't have such a negative impact on survival that the species goes extinct.

      Cherry pick much?

  2. AND, THC/CDB causes prot-plaques NOT to build up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    https://www.sciencealert.com/marijuana-compound-thc-removes-toxic-alzheimer-protein-from-brain
    https://www.salk.edu/news-release/cannabinoids-remove-plaque-forming-alzheimers-proteins-from-brain-cells/
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S104474311300064X

  3. Excellent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I can stop eating healthily and exercising and simply SLEEP a lot more.

    I love sleep. It's like death without the commitment.

    1. Re:Excellent by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I can stop eating healthily and exercising and simply SLEEP a lot more.

      moar hamburder? moar hamburder? with cheeze? can haz cheezeburder?

  4. Link to actual paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not that anyone cares about the nature or quality of the research when discussing their preconceived notions, but for the few that might here's a link to the paper, which for a change doesn't appear to be paywalled.

    http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/2/eaav5447

    1. Re:Link to actual paper by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      That URL takes me to an article titled "Increased glymphatic influx is correlated with high EEG delta power and low heart rate in mice under anesthesia".

    2. Re:Link to actual paper by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      Ah, one of the references suggests why this might be a relevant article.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29101220?dopt=Abstract

  5. Anecdotal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    ...CPAP has restored my sleep to where it was 10 years ago, and i feel so much younger. I was sure I was headed for the foggy clouded numbness of old age, but my youth is back, my mind is back and I owe it all to CPAP.

    [Paid shill for the CPAP industry] .....NOT!!!

    1. Re:Anecdotal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CPAP is important for people with sleep apnea. They either wake themselves up 10 times a night, or they have near-death experiences. It's an under-diagnosed condition for obvious reasons, sleep study is tricky + $.

      So if you're not going to properly set the table, why should anyone expect to eat anything but vague garbage you're serving? Not every sleep apnea product is going to be equally effective or equally advertised, that's true.

      Which is? That requires study. Do some of that before you form your next opinion, I fucking dog dare you. (Yeah fucking-dog dare you does not imply what it seems like, it's emphasis only.)

    2. Re:Anecdotal... by mnemotronic · · Score: 1

      CPAP is important for people with sleep apnea ... Not every sleep apnea product is going to be equally effective or equally advertised, that's true.

      Saw announcements about 3-D printed CPAP masks a few years ago. I'm guessing they are mainstream by now:
      http://inspiratemedical.com/
      https://www.3ders.org/articles...

      ... Do some of that before you form your next opinion, I fucking dog dare you ...

      Whoa. Easy there boss. We're all only human. It ain't the end of the world.

      --
      The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
    3. Re:Anecdotal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The deficit you accumulate with sleep apnea is due to oxygen deprivation, so a completely different main mechanism.

      If your sleep quality is poor you should get a sleep study. Otherwise you might fall asleep at the wheel or in a similar situation where falling asleep can be disastrous. You likely won't hold down a job, and ti's also very hard on your cardiovascular health.

      CPAP isn't perfect treatment and doesn't totally remove the deficit, but it certainly helps and is worth the adjustment and expense.

    4. Re:Anecdotal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The end of the world is like dog fucking daring, by your estimation?

    5. Re:Anecdotal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're obviously not a doctor nor someone who knows about CPAP or sleep apnea. The deficit is from them waking themselves up constantly when their sleeping breathing stops for xyz reasons called "sleep apnea" - many factors.

      That has nothing to do with narcolepsy, falling asleep uncontrollably, though there is overlap with other breathing disorders they aren't sleep apnea. False.

    6. Re:Anecdotal... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      [Paying shill for the CPAP industry] .....NOT!!!

      ftfy

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  6. That's not the conclusion at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Nowhere is the increase in glymphatic output correlated with a reduction in amyloid plaques nor an hypothesized reduction in Alzheimer's

    The study simply shows that if you choose the correct anesthesia you'll get higher glymphatic output

    1. Re: That's not the conclusion at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All part of the game.
        It's nature's way of stopping the spread of false information. Look at the other prion type diseases for more clues.

    2. Re: That's not the conclusion at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Re: The study simply shows that if you choose the correct anesthesia you'll get higher glymphatic output

      Exactly.

      Also, ketamine does not produce a dreamless sleep. Quite the opposite, I had vivid creative dreaming while knocked out on ketamine for an operation.

      I wonder what those mice dreamt about.

  7. Why we sleep by renzhi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For those who want to know more in this domain, there's a very interesting book by Matthew Walker, called Why we sleep. It provides a very detailed description of what deep sleep and REM sleep do to your body.

    1. Re:Why we sleep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A very detailed guess

      Science doesn't know right now.

    2. Re:Why we sleep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be a party pooper. Man said 'very detailed description', are you accusing him of lying?

    3. Re: Why we sleep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true at all. You didn't read the book.

    4. Re:Why we sleep by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Is anyone working on tech to help improve sleep? Like some kind of sleep regulator?

      I'd love to have a device where I press a button and get a decent 8 hours of sleep.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Why we sleep by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      I guess CPAP is the closest thing, as the majority of sleep problems are caused by poor oxygen uptake at night.

  8. Re: AND, THC/CDB causes prot-plaques NOT to build by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not that long ago alzheimers was linked to gum disease caused by aluminum in our diets. Go figure

  9. The lathe of heaven by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    You need D-sleep or you go insane and the world is destroyed.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:The lathe of heaven by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only Trotsky-slut lib.progs are destroyed ... the cocaine keeps them up at night.

  10. John C Lilly by t4eXanadu · · Score: 2

    So if I spend 12 hours a day in a Ketamine-induced stupor, I can lower my risk of Alzheimer's disease? Of course, when you do that, you greatly increase your risk of a bathtub-induced drowning.

    1. Re:John C Lilly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know next to nothing about ketamine, but I've noticed if I spend 12 hours sleeping off a drinking binge (not unheard of for me), it weighs VERY heavily towards "light sleep". Even for a few days after drinking it weighs heavily towards light sleep. In fact, there are tiny slivers of deep sleep mixed among long periods of light sleep.

      And when I wake up, I'm not well-rested at all.

      I'm basing this off what my Xiaomi fitness band thingy says. I'm not endorsing that product, but it's one of the cheaper ones and usually can tell when I'm asleep. I'm also sure it tries to send my data off to China, but oh well.

      But it's not news that alcohol severely messes with sleep. Anyone drinking for "insomnia" is fooling themselves.

      I'm gonna get Alzheimer's, aren't I?

      But I'm sure I read somewhere that marijuana reduces the risk of Alzheimer's so maybe by smoking copious of that I can stave it off until I die of chronic liver disease or something. (faulty logic, I know. I think I also read somewhere that it could increase the risk, but people will believe whatever they want.)

      Seriously though, I quit drinking last month and getting a good night's sleep is one of the major motivations to do so.

      /Hold my beer....while I try to quit drinking

    2. Re:John C Lilly by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      So if I spend 12 hours a day in a Ketamine-induced stupor, I can lower my risk of Alzheimer's disease? Of course, when you do that, you greatly increase your risk of a bathtub-induced drowning.

      This whole thing is bullshit. I hate to use the correlation is not causation meme, but the whole thing is like "Sitting increases your likelihood of death. I mean, it's not like people who are already dying can't often do much more than sit.

      My 5 hours a night should have killed me 20 years ago to hear the "get more sleep" crowd. Yet I feel good with 5, and don't use an alarm clock to wake me up. I've slept that much since high school, and if it kills me, at least I'll have been awake and alert more than most.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:John C Lilly by careysub · · Score: 1

      So if I spend 12 hours a day in a Ketamine-induced stupor, I can lower my risk of Alzheimer's disease? Of course, when you do that, you greatly increase your risk of a bathtub-induced drowning.

      This whole thing is bullshit. I hate to use the correlation is not causation meme, but the whole thing is like "Sitting increases your likelihood of death. I mean, it's not like people who are already dying can't often do much more than sit.

      My 5 hours a night should have killed me 20 years ago to hear the "get more sleep" crowd. Yet I feel good with 5...

      Good for you. As with absolutely everything in human physiology there is a statistical distribution of requirements, and for some people it is higher than the mean, and for some it is lower. Maybe you are just on the low end.

      I am sure this does not apply to you, that your sleep-time estimates over time are absolutely accurate, but it is well known by sleep researchers that people in general are very bad about estimating how much they sleep. If, in the culture or subculture, needing little sleep is seen as a sign of merit of some sort reason, then people will tend to falsely report needing little sleep. Thus I do commonly see claims of people saying they need only a small number of sleep-hours, and must assume that most of them at least are mistaken.

      But none of this in any way discounts the report. You need how much you need. If its less, then its less, but you still need it and cannot shortchange without consequences. It does not matter whether this is number is (really) 5 hours or 10.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    4. Re:John C Lilly by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Good for you. As with absolutely everything in human physiology there is a statistical distribution of requirements, and for some people it is higher than the mean, and for some it is lower. Maybe you are just on the low end.

      I am sure this does not apply to you, that your sleep-time estimates over time are absolutely accurate, but it is well known by sleep researchers that people in general are very bad about estimating how much they sleep.

      I think I'm just going to post that 8 hours isn't enough, that you'll die if you get less than 12 hours a night.

      Whenever Slashdot mentions that lack of sleep is a killer of people, and that it is a ticket to an early death - I'm foolish enough to mention my personal sleep needs. The real fun starts when first people tell me I'm "lucky" then that I'm conforming to some weird idea that lack of sleep pleases some meme of western man, then the subtle and not so subtle inferences that I'm lying.

      Well, I'm not lucky, nor am I bragging. And dissembling about the time I spend sleeping strikes me as both silly and weird. If I was going to lie about some personal physical attribute, it would be something better than the amount of sleep I get.

      Anyhow, I have seen the light. A new study has shown that if you don't get at least 12 hours of sleep every night, your peen will fall off. And if you don't have one, one will grow on you. 8^)

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  11. Oh, great by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

    I'm screwed.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Oh, great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's that?

    2. Re:Oh, great by antdude · · Score: 1

      Ditto. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    3. Re:Oh, great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No worries, you will soon forget you are screwed anyway. All is well.

  12. Re:AND, THC/CDB causes prot-plaques NOT to build u by guruevi · · Score: 1

    Alzheimer's and pot is today's cancer and caffeine.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  13. Re:Hanging nazi traitors causes American Greatness by subie · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Please just stop, seriously 2 years of hate and ignorance?? Again, you are changing no one's opinion and furthermore, helping ruin this great website. There will be no hanging because we don't even do that anymore. And there is this wonderful thing called the Freedom of Speech and the US is the only country that has that as part of their Constitution,No other Country in the world has such guaranties. So everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless if they are for Trump or Not. The US isn't Russia. The only golfing you've done on your phone and I bet your swing still looks like something from CaddyShack.

  14. Homeless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tell this to the Nazi brownshirts who kick the homeless awake at 2:am and threaten to arrest them.

    Or to the teens who want to light a "bum" on fire for the thrill of it.

    1. Re:Homeless by cdsparrow · · Score: 1

      While lighting the homeless on fire is of course reprehensible, I would imagine that developing alzheimers is low on the list of worries for the homeless.

  15. Re: AND, THC/CDB causes prot-plaques NOT to build by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The infections can speed up immune responses AFAIK which lead to chronic amyloid plaque buildups... yeah.

  16. Re:Missing out on JEWS causes great PROSPERITY by msmonroe · · Score: 0

    I feel sorry for you. You're your own problem not the jews, or blacks or whoever. Hate cannot fill that emptiness inside.

  17. Re: AND, THC/CDB causes prot-plaques NOT to build by andydread · · Score: 4, Interesting

    infections in the brain such as P. gingivalis or Herpes(HSV1) travel along the nerve cells into the brain and cause inflammation (Protein plaques) to build up. Cannabis is also known to reduce inflammation.

  18. Michael Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Worked for MJ.

  19. Re:Missing out on JEWS causes great PROSPERITY by pete6677 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It's just some autist incel who thinks he's clever. My only surprise is that Slashdot has not found the means or the interest in permanently blocking him.

  20. How bad is... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 0
    The current trend of obsessing and fixation and stress over not getting "enough sleep"?

    I sleep 5 hours a night. I go to bed when I'm tired, and don't use an alarm clock to wake up. I wake up feeling refreshed. I'm alert all day except for about 10 minutes around 3 PM.

    So am I supposed to use drugs or something? Get addicted to something because it's healthy?

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    1. Re:How bad is... by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"The current trend of obsessing and fixation and stress over not getting "enough sleep"? I sleep 5 hours a night. I go to bed when I'm tired, and don't use an alarm clock to wake up. I wake up feeling refreshed. I'm alert all day except for about 10 minutes around 3 PM. "

      Indeed. It isn't as much the quantity of sleep that is important as much as the quality. I used to be like you. But now I can sleep for 6 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours, or 12 hours and still hardly waken and feel completely unrefreshed and tired. The sleep study was useless because I don't have "apnea" or "restless leg syndrome", which are apparently the only two things they know how to treat. All they could do was say my deep sleep was severely fragmented and send me on my way. "60 alpha intrusions into delta sleep every hour." And after 20 years of it, I can attest that it does adversely affect memory and seems to create or worsen other health issues.

    2. Re:How bad is... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      >"The current trend of obsessing and fixation and stress over not getting "enough sleep"? I sleep 5 hours a night. I go to bed when I'm tired, and don't use an alarm clock to wake up. I wake up feeling refreshed. I'm alert all day except for about 10 minutes around 3 PM. "

      Indeed. It isn't as much the quantity of sleep that is important as much as the quality. I used to be like you. But now I can sleep for 6 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours, or 12 hours and still hardly waken and feel completely unrefreshed and tired. The sleep study was useless because I don't have "apnea" or "restless leg syndrome", which are apparently the only two things they know how to treat. All they could do was say my deep sleep was severely fragmented and send me on my way. "60 alpha intrusions into delta sleep every hour." And after 20 years of it, I can attest that it does adversely affect memory and seems to create or worsen other health issues.

      That sucks big time. No physical possibilities like sciatica or there's a wear and tear issue on a spinal column disk that and make your arms need constant shifting through the night? I'm no medical doctor, but pain might factor in for kicking out of deep sleep.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:How bad is... by techno-vampire · · Score: 2

      I had considerable trouble getting to sleep, often taking over two hours after the lights went out. and, if I did manage to get to sleep, I'd wake up within two hours, and take another hour or two to get back to sleep. I'm retired, so even if I didn't really get to sleep until 5 AM, I could just sleep until I woke up. I had a sleep study done, and it consisted of my keeping a sleep diary of when I went to bed, when (roughly) I got to sleep or woke up and if I got up during the night. This told the doctor that I needed to shift my sleep cycle to earlier in the night and now my sleep is more regular and closer to normal. It still takes more time than I'd like to get to sleep, but at least I can get back to sleep without much trouble, and am ready to get up at a more reasonable time.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    4. Re:How bad is... by yes-but-no · · Score: 1

      During the time you are waiting for sleep to arrive. those hour or two.. what were you doing? if no visual stimulus (ie visual cortex is off -- no screen/cell phone, blue light etc), I guess just lying n staring at darkness is as good as sleeping for giving rest to your brain. The point is do you feel refreshed the next day - if it's similar to having 8 hours sleep, then it's fine. I think just waiting 2 hours in darkness and having 6 hours sleep shd be almost same as having 8 hours sleep. The deeper issue is if you feel fine and refreshed, then things are good. I've seen animals like cows in deep night, have their eyes open and say chewing (masticating?) - so the mammalian brain may only need visual cortex off (biggest real estate n consume of power) and not awareness/attention/thinking turned off. [auditory cortex can be on too.. ie you can engage in small talks/ listening to music or singing]

    5. Re:How bad is... by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Back when I was having trouble getting to sleep, I was in bed, with the lights out, hoping to get drowsy enough to doze off. Somewhere around 5 AM, I would get solidly to sleep, and woke up some time after eleven. I was reasonably refreshed, but not as good as I should have felt.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    6. Re:How bad is... by ledow · · Score: 1

      Maybe you're lucky. Maybe 5 hours a night is enough for you.

      Now, I'm quite lucky too, but I have a very different situation. If I did as you do, I would happily sleep 16 hours and not even notice. That's just not compatible with a working life.

      Hence I *have* to wake myself up. Now, I can operate on zero sleep (48 hours without sleep). I've done it quite a bit and it works fine. I can operate on 6-7 hours sleep, no problem, for a long and regular basis.

      But I can easily imagine that if you were someone like me, that 5 hours might not be enough and/or that you don't *get* 5 hours sleep.

      The study I'd be interested in is plaques in (former) junior doctors. They literally don't get anywhere near enough sleep. They are counter to all their own advice. Therefore, presumably, they should be a good study (and easy to get hold of!).

      "Not enough" is a subjective term in itself, there may be a recommendation but for sure it's too much or too little for many people.

      I think the gist of it is - deliberately abusing your sleep isn't a good thing. It's not a harmless action. You can't "make it up" on the weekend. It doesn't work like that. That's the point.

      The people who are abusing their bodies and ignoring such natural responses are - in small and subtle ways - setting themselves up to risk of damage later, even if they feel fine just a day or two later.

    7. Re:How bad is... by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      Do you get exercise? Would you sleep more heavily if you were tired from exercise?

    8. Re:How bad is... by yes-but-no · · Score: 1

      Likely your circadian clock is totally out of sync with the sun; if you are in low lattitude, it's best to follow the sun. It takes a few days, say 21 days to get it right but with practice you can do it. That is once sun is down, don't give artificial blue light stimulus to your eyes; and stay in darkness for like 7 to 9 hours just before sunrise. And go out in morning and let the sunlight (it's unique spectrum...visible light wavelengths) to hit ur retina.. doing for a week or so, your body will adjust the internal circadian clock - how we mammals were doing for 100s of millions of years before Edison came along and screwed the darkness.

    9. Re:How bad is... by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"That sucks big time. No physical possibilities like sciatica or there's a wear and tear issue on a spinal column disk that and make your arms need constant shifting through the night? I'm no medical doctor, but pain might factor in for kicking out of deep sleep."

      No, they had no explanation. That is when I realized they really don't know all that much about sleep.

    10. Re:How bad is... by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"I had considerable trouble getting to sleep"

      In my case, I can sleep just about anytime, anywhere. And I am unconscious within about 60 seconds with no more awareness until many hours later.

    11. Re:How bad is... by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"Do you get exercise? Would you sleep more heavily if you were tired from exercise?"

      I will admit I do not get much exercise. It does seem to help a little, but it is extremely difficult to get motivated to do it, then I quickly lose interest.

    12. Re:How bad is... by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      This advice might have helped several years ago when I was having trouble sleeping. It's more than a tad redundant now.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    13. Re:How bad is... by BranMan · · Score: 1

      Hey Mark,
            This is kind of a long shot, but have you tried meditation? It's not directly related to sleep, but it does calm the mind and gets the body more in tune with itself. It may also be a way for you to refresh your mind without sleep. Though, as I said, a bit of a long shot.

  21. Re: AND, THC/CDB causes prot-plaques NOT to build by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    infections in the brain such as P. gingivalis or Herpes(HSV1) travel along the nerve cells into the brain and cause inflammation (Protein plaques) to build up. Cannabis is also known to reduce inflammation.

    Well then - Let's get baked for our health! I am sold....

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  22. I have a big problem --- I don't get deep sleep !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not a waste of time, otherwise evolution would have removed it. There's a number of species that sort of remove sleep effectively: aquatic mammals/some birds sleep with half their brain and with one eye closed for mostly avoiding being eaten while asleep and for the aquatic mammals to be able to breathe; however they are still sleeping, so it is required in ways we don't fully understand yet, and TFA might be a clue.

    I yearn for deep sleep. I know I need deep sleep, but I simply can't get it !

    My sleep pattern is horrendous, and never a day I get up without feeling MUCH MORE TIRED than before I went to bed.

    Can someone tell me how to get deep sleep, please?

  23. Re:I have a big problem --- I don't get deep sleep by Shikaku · · Score: 1

    I'm not a doctor but what you're looking for is a sleep study. The doctors that do that will be able to help you from there. I use a CPAP machine myself but they would need to see what is going on through the sleep study and give you what you need.

  24. Re: Missing out on JEWS causes great PROSPERITY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Speak for yourself, jewgger. Sieg Heil.

  25. Subjects are dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First not brushing your teeth leads to Alzheimer's and now not sleeping.

    Life causes death, news at 11.

  26. Re:Hanging nazi traitors causes American Greatness by DethLok · · Score: 0

    Well...

    Here's a list of 'Freedom_of_speech_by_country'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Constitutions are not for every country, but the UN Declaration of Human Rights is quite common.

  27. Re:Hanging nazi traitors causes American Greatness by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

    UN Declaration of Rights is not followed, nor needs to be followed by countries. Secondly, reading through the UN Declaration of Rights shows how little the drafters of the UN declaration understood the concept of rights.

    --
    If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
    Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
  28. Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's becoming almost impossible to get truly deep, uninterrupted sleep these days if you live in a big city. There are no affordable houses to be had so you end up renting... usually an apartment. Which means you're at the mercy of your neighbors and how conscious they are of noise levels.

  29. Alzheimers is a real worry.... by froggyjojodaddy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm 42 years old and have noticed a real short to mid-term memory problem for the past 2 years or so. I literally have a tough time remembering things from 3 weeks ago and struggle to recall specific events more than 6 months ago. I've taken to making copious amounts of notes at work that I can refer to later because I know I won't remember. No-one in my family has it so I'm assuming that means the likelihood of me getting it is reduced (but not zero).

    Friends and family put it down to absent mindedness or just overall busyness and say other things occupy my mind and it'll get better but secretly, I don't believe that's the case. Right now, I'm trying to remember what I did at work last Monday and other than recalling things that happened during recurrent meetings, I can't remember. E.g. I know I had a one-time meeting between 10:30am and 11:30am and for the life of me, I can't remember the discussion but can remember the people. Times and dates are especially hard, my wife has come to provide frequent reminders of dates and activities because I just cannot remember them anymore. E.g. if we have a appointment this Saturday, by tomorrow I will have completely forgotten.

    For the past 4 years, I've been sleeping maybe 3-4 hours a night. I track this formally via my FitBit but informally, I make a note when I get into bed and then whatever time I get up. Of course, I know I'm worrying about it which is likely contributing to my stress and therefore lack of sleep but nonetheless, I'm def. not sleeping as much. No TV, no phone, just lying in the dark trying to think of nothing. Which is hard... I often imagine myself flying through the nothingness of space just to stop me from thinking about a thousand other things and the darkness of space helps kinda blank everything.
    I will say - when I wake up, I'm full of energy. No problems swinging out of bed and getting on with the day so the 3-4 hours sleep isn't affecting my energy level.

    I have spoken to my doctor and she was willing to prescribe sleeping pills but I got the impression she didn't really want to investigate the root cause. She's a crap doctor that way but with OHIP being the way it is, I haven't been able to find another doctor in a year. I declined her offer of sleeping pills - I tried prescribed Ambien once and it left me in a bad way - when I woke up in the morning, I was dizzy, dis-orientated, and it was a real effort to even sit up. I was tired until around noon so I gave that up after a few days.

    What's the point of this long rant? I'm kinda terrified of getting Alzheimers so I have not researched it a lot. In everything else in my life, I am constantly researching things but the fear of Alzheimers has a strong mental block on me. I would love to hear from others who have experience with it, the folks here (for the most part!) are rational and intelligence so I value your feedback moreso than random forums

    1. Re:Alzheimers is a real worry.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm 43. My grandmother had Alzheimers. I worry about it too. The sleep connection appears to be pretty solid. I've had difficulty on both ends, falling asleep and waking up early. I'll feel pretty refreshed and happy to be awake most mornings, but sometimes wonder if I should have slept longer. The big thing that has helped me is exercise. All the sleep hygiene (dark room, ear plugs, consistent schedule, carefully avoiding certain food and drink the last few hours before bed) doesn't help much if I am not tired enough. So, I make sure to exercise most days of the week. (I found Crossfit works for me, it is easy because the gym is close, the movements can be modified to work with my ageing body, the people there are kind and I keep going back, but anything that gets me tired would work). When I am thinking about not going, or going but not pushing myself I remember how good it will feel to fall asleep if I am tried enough.

    2. Re:Alzheimers is a real worry.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some years ago I had a serious case of involuntary sleep deprivation. Ever since I've had memory problems similar to what you're describing. I recently did a general intelligence test (WAIS IV) which pretty much confirmed my suspicions. My general intelligence, excluding speed and memory, was still very high (GAI 99th percentile) but the speed was below average ( 50th percentile) and the memory tests were all over the place with both top scores (98th percentile) and below average scores depending on what was tested. Basically, I'm still "smart" but I'm slower and my memory is unreliable. For some tasks it is great and for some it is utter shite. It is not just "classical" forgetfulness though where everything is equally fuzzy. It is more like a swiss cheese, some parts are good and some are just gaping holes of nothingness. Sometimes, I can't remember the beginning of a sentence and sometimes I can remember what was said on the phone 6 months ago.

      My doctor(s) have mostly considered burnout or ME/CFS but my case doesn't really fit either since it is was not work/stress related burnout or a viral infection but really involuntary sleep deprivation that started it all. There doesn't seem to be much research on what long term sleep deprivation actually does to your brain. There are short studies (partial sleep deprivation for 1-2 weeks) but for obvious ethical reasons long term studies are missing. Also, human participants don't like having their brains sliced open so the researchers can't look for plaque buildup (I don't know why MRIs can't be used).

      I've been following both burnout research, ME/CFS research and whatever I can find that might be related like stroke, alzheimers etc. Burnout research is mostly a bust since it is so focused on stress or prevention. ME/CFS research is inconclusive but the energy transfer hypothesis is at least interesting (something something mitocondria something), the sleep-alzheimers connection via plaque is interesting but it seems too early to tell what the connection really is and if you can measure it. From what I can remember, many alzheimers medications that were "supposed" to work didn't, possibly because they were treating a symptom and not the cause.

      In your case, I wouldn't be too worried about Alzheimers (yet) since the memory problems could be explained by your lack of sleep. From what I've read, 3-4 hours of sleep is enough to cause impairments after 1-2 weeks. Unfortunately, I don't have any good advice what to do about it except for the usual sleep hygiene stuff you've surely heard about. Perhaps melatonin could help since it only makes it easier to fall asleep and doesn't knock you out like other meds. The science isn't really conclusive about the efficacy of melatonin though. Also, avoid all kinds of anti-depressants. They can really fuck up your sleep.

      But, there is still hope. My memory has improved a lot over the years. One year after the sleep deprivation, I had trouble remembering 3 numbers for about 5s. Now, 5 years later, I could remember about 7 numbers which is a huge improvement. So, if you fix the sleep issue, you may slowly regain some of the memory capabilities.

      I always look out for more scientific reading on sleep deprivation and how it affects the brain. Any suggestions would be most welcome.

    3. Re:Alzheimers is a real worry.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trying to remember the details of what happened last monday, 1 week ago, is not uncommon to failure. Just live your life and enjoy what you have now than worrying about what may happen later. Living in fear does not overcome it like living with it does. Overcome your fear, go skydiving. Kick fear in the face.

    4. Re:Alzheimers is a real worry.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the point of this long rant? I'm kinda terrified of getting Alzheimers so I have not researched it a lot. In everything else in my life, I am constantly researching things but the fear of Alzheimers has a strong mental block on me. I would love to hear from others who have experience with it, the folks here (for the most part!) are rational and intelligence so I value your feedback moreso than random forums

      On the plus side, you should soon forget about these worries!

    5. Re:Alzheimers is a real worry.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Im AC and do not have much to say but what you describe could describe me at that age and now although I muddle through with electronic reminders and honestly can't say I had great rote memorization skills in my youth. Personally I prioritize sleep over all things and always have. Never pulled a true all nighter in school and could count on one hand the number of times I went with just a few hours sleep. Sometimes lige things cause me to miss sleep but I do my darndest to not have it happen or to grab a nap later. My father had alzheimers in the worst way. He lived for over a decade with it and I can tell you once you have it where you can not take care of yourself all years of your life going forward is increasingly a curse. I prayed for my father to pass away in the night and cried more seeing him in the state than I did later at his funeral. I am scared to death about getting it because before its too late life is still good but after you are to late to do anything about it.

    6. Re:Alzheimers is a real worry.... by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      I literally have a tough time remembering things from 3 hours ago and struggle to recall specific events more than 6 days ago.

      FTFM (fixed that for me)

    7. Re:Alzheimers is a real worry.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never been able to remember details like the ones you list. I have absolutely no idea what I did last Monday.

  30. Important unanswered question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How much deep REM sleep do we need a night?

  31. People are underslept by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many people, maybe not all, but a lot, will pay a heavy price for sleep abuse with a wide variety of adverse health consequences. A lot of people are not even aware of how badly they are sleeping because they have had the same bad habits for decades and are used to sleeping badly and feeling like shit. If you want to assess your own sleep quality you need an assessment program. That is: no drugs, no alcohol, no caffeine, a 100% black-out bedroom, no screens before bedtime, no alarm clock (go to bed 9 hours before you have to get up; if you wake up early take the dog for a walk). Do this for 3 months and then you will at least have a handle on what your sleep quality really is, and can make informed decisions based on that. Or not.

  32. OSA and alzheimers correlation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is there a significant correlation between untreated OSA (obstructive sleep apnea and Alzheimers?)

  33. Don't feed the troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure what's more annoying: that troll, or the white knights trying to correct them, and in doing so crapflooding the comments.

    So figure out how you're being played, already.

  34. better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about we use downmods for everyone who responds to that troll. Maybe then they'd learn to stop feeding it.

  35. Re:Hanging nazi traitors causes American Greatness by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

    How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you literally make shit up?
    The US has neither the only, or even the most robust constitutional protections of free speech.