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Kids Have 'Math Anxiety' Thanks To Parents and Teachers, Report Finds (vice.com)

A new report out of the University of Cambridge studied the experiences of a total of 2,700 primary and secondary students in the UK and Italy and found that primary and secondary school girls had higher levels of both math anxiety and general anxiety than boys. "The study also focuses on how parents and teachers shape math performance and attitudes, perhaps without even realizing it," adds Motherboard. "In the same way that anxious parents can shape their children's anxiety, math-anxious mentors can shape how kids view their own math anxiety." From the report: The new study builds on previous research by highlighting the importance of teachers and parents' own math anxieties impacting students. Most students that the researchers talked to said that their anxiousness started when the math topics became more challenging, and they felt like they couldn't do them. Another reason the students' said they were struggling was because multiple teachers were teaching them math, and it became confusing across teaching styles. "Importantly -- and surprisingly -- this new research suggests that the majority of students experiencing maths anxiety have normal to high maths ability," Josh Hillman, Director of Education at the Nuffield Foundation, said in a press release.

Several of the excerpts of the interviews conducted by researchers with math-anxious kids are heartbreaking: Many described feelings that they knew the answers but panicked, or tried to battle through initial confusion. One child, around 9 or 10 years old, said: "Once, I think it was the first day and he picked on me, and I just kind of burst into tears because everybody was staring at me and I didn't know the answer. Well I probably knew it but I hadn't thought it through." Another described doing a fractions test: "It means like enormously [nervous], and enormously means like massively... I felt very unwell and I was really scared and because my table's in the corner, I kind of just like tried to not be in the lesson."

133 of 228 comments (clear)

  1. Anxiety for 1200 Alex by rmdingler · · Score: 2

    What is something we all felt in high school?

    But, math anxiety? Wow. If it existed, I rather convincingly suspect it was in back of dozens of other, considerably more important at the moment, social concerns.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:Anxiety for 1200 Alex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's fucking incredible you somehow managed to make this about penises. Truly, bravo. Also, sorry about your brain damage.

    2. Re:Anxiety for 1200 Alex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Problem arises in all STEM subjects, you either know they shit and can do it or you do not

      Wait till you see debate club discussing what should be socially just result of 2+2 :-)
      And who is responsible that planes or bridges falling down.

    3. Re:Anxiety for 1200 Alex by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      That moment when you're not sure if sarcasm may have already been implemented. We've already seen that hilarious video of the female university student insisting that science should study black magic as much as actual physics.

      Your suggestion doesn't sound all that far fetched in comparison.

    4. Re:Anxiety for 1200 Alex by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What is something we all felt in high school?

      But, math anxiety? Wow. If it existed, I rather convincingly suspect it was in back of dozens of other, considerably more important at the moment, social concerns.

      The anxiety is probably the enforcement of the ideological dictate that women are equal or better at math than males.

      When proficiency in math is actually based on individual ability, not the person's genitals.

      That doesn't matter to the idealogues, they attempt to force math proficiency on young ladies who may or may not have the individual traits.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  2. Are M&Ms involved? by peterofoz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    No anxiety from my daughter in elementary school. Had to do long division. We used M&Ms and she got to eat the remainder. Dad had to plan the problems carefully to attain remainders less than 5.

    1. Re:Are M&Ms involved? by No+Longer+an+AC · · Score: 1

      Making math fun probably helps a lot. For some reason I remember a 3rd grade teacher that had us writing story problems. I just remember some of my classmates really getting into it and being creative in ways that may not be considered appropriate for 3rd-graders, but the teacher didn't care as long as we were doing the math and getting it right.

      But whether it's that or M&Ms, I think showing the practical applications of math makes it more interesting and helps students grasp the concepts better.

    2. Re:Are M&Ms involved? by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      You're talking about arithmetic, not math. Arithmetic is to math as spelling is to composition. Roughly.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    3. Re:Are M&Ms involved? by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

      The article talks about the case where "math topics became more challenging", which clearly excludes simple arithmetic.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  3. Always refer back to the classics by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

    Once, I think it was the first day and he picked on me, and I just kind of burst into tears because everybody was staring at me and I didn't know the answer.

    Not quite the same thing but there's no crying in Mathematics!

  4. It Would Help If They Taught Math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In the 1990s, the high school I attended didn't really teach math. Instead, it pushed people into groups and immediately threw them into the work with the expectation that the group could figure it out themselves. It was a rare day that the teacher actually lectured.

    Meanwhile, real math teachers are ignored, because their strategy of actually teaching the math doesn't let schools artificially tamper with the scores.

    If you want to get rid of math anxiety, a good first step would be to actually teach, not let everyone sink like a stone.

  5. Music by Sooner+Boomer · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe they should listen to Death Metal while doing homework to reduce that anxiety...

    --
    Chaos maximizes locally around me.
    1. Re:Music by nctritech · · Score: 2

      Sorry bro, my jam is this group called FAITH + 1. They really love Jesus.

    2. Re:Music by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't you rather listen to Fingerbang?

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
  6. Not anymore, by wolfheart111 · · Score: 1

    with a smartphone... lol.

    --
    [($)]
  7. New math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Part of it is because of constantly changing the way students are taught to do math. Especially as their parents cannot help them if they don't understand. I learned math in the 60s and 70s. There was nothing wrong with the way we were taught, and students today should be taught the same way! A couple of years ago a friend's grandchildren were trying to learn division. Their teacher was having them try to do it some weird and torturous way. I showed them how I learned to do long division, and they remarked how much easier it was than the method that they were being taught.

    I know that these days everyone has a phone, tablet or a computer with a calculator program. That does not help if the person does not know how to properly formulate the problem.

    1. Re:New math by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The math hasn't actually changed.

      And the reason the parents can't help is that they don't actually do that sort of math as an adult.

      If a parent can't read the book and understand it right away, they shouldn't even be trying to "help." Math is something that has to be exactly correct to be correct, you can't half-remember something from decades ago and start saying, "oh yeah, I know how to do that..."

    2. Re:New math by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The algorithm they're teaching *IS* different. It is substantially different and it is more confusing than what they were teaching when I was in school.

      For example, they INSIST that to do 8+5 in the second grade, the kid MUST decompose it into 8+3+2, 8+2 = 10, 10+3=13. Decomposing it into 5+5+3 is WRONG, simply remembering that 8+5 is 13 is WRONG.

      If the 5 doesn't have two lines coming down at roughly a 45 degree angle with a 2 and a 3 at the other endpoints and a circle around the 8 and the 2, it is WRONG.

      Damnit, now I hear the teacher in the wall yelling "WROOOOOng, do it AGAIN!".

    3. Re: New math by sjames · · Score: 2

      You must be confused somehow. Long division in the '70s certainly didn't attempt to resolve the least significant digit first. How the hell would you even do that and why?

    4. Re:New math by No+Longer+an+AC · · Score: 1

      And the reason the parents can't help is that they don't actually do that sort of math as an adult.

      This is probably true. I've forgotten most of the higher math I learned in college simply because I never really had to use it in my career. I would hope I would be able to help most students who haven't yet graduated high school. I'd probably have to read the textbook if they were in calculus or maybe even advanced algebra.

      Then again, I've seen people in restaurants pull tiny cards out of their wallets so they could figure out how much to tip. Nowadays, there are apps for that. And some of those people only tip 10%.

    5. Re:New math by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      That isn't because they don't know how, it is because they are too lazy to actually work it out and too out of practice to quickly calculate it.

    6. Re:New math by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      This, right here. Exactly what concept are you claiming isn't gotten here? If you can count you know 100% of the underlying concepts in addition, every single time, without a requirement for a proof. You aren't introducing anything new by breaking it into smaller pieces.

      A lack of comprehension of the underlying concepts of basic arithmetic isn't an issue for most anyone without brain damage and with an IQ over 80.

    7. Re:New math by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      Hell if you are going to insist they expand the problems at least expand in a useful way. 2 + 3 becomes 2+2+1. 10 + 3 = 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 1. At least that would teach them to reduce problems in a way that provides ready translation to computation.

    8. Re: New math by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      Nor the 80's or 90's.

    9. Re:New math by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      "Its not really a very useful skill to learn though."

      It is useful because doing long division helps you to actually understand how division works.

    10. Re:New math by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Maybe ten years after I graduated I found that the first years were doing noticeably harder integrals than I did at the same point. There's a pattern: students actually do progress further and faster these days than the good old days some of us like to brag about.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    11. Re: New math by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      He must have confused division with addition, after all the symbols are nearly the same, aren't they.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    12. Re:New math by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Still don't see the point of getting kids to memorise and perform division algorithms at school.

      Think of it as introduction to algorithms if you must. It's basic literacy, a accessory to actual math as opposed to arithmetic. I would not want to drive over a bridge designed by an engineer who couldn't do long division.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    13. Re:New math by 110010001000 · · Score: 1, Troll

      Remembering 8+13 IS wrong. Are you able to memorize every number added to every other number? What are you going to do when the problem is 58472+39485? The idea of decomposition is to make the problem easier so that the harder problems are easier to solve. That is what CC does, and it makes sense. They are teaching the approach, not memorization. Memorization is stupid.

    14. Re:New math by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      There was something wrong with the way we were taught: we were taught the method to do long division, not WHY you did it that way. As a result, you have no clue if your answer is correct or not, because you make a single mistake when following the algorithm the entire result is wrong. Doing division by following an algorithm might be easier, but then you are just a robot following an algorithm and you might as well have a computer do it. You didn't learn anything except for the algorithm.

    15. Re:New math by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I learned long division, but it's not been very useful in later life. Far more useful is the ability to estimate the answer so that I know when I use the calculate that the result looks right. Of course just through repetition I can do a lot of divisions in my head without much effort anyway.

      I don't know what the modern technique for teaching division is but as someone who does a fair bit of maths for work I find this, and a good understanding of algebra, to be far more useful in everyday life. Maybe we should teach kids that and some solid calculator skills.

      Same as learning to type well is probably of more practical use than learning cursive handwriting now.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    16. Re:New math by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      My daughter was doing ratios (I think in 5th grade?), and I couldn't understand the method she was taught. I taught her to cross multiply and solve the really basic algebra equation. She completed the assignment, I double-checked the answers and they were correct. Turns it in, zero for a grade because "she didn't follow the correct procedure." Teacher didn't even believe she did it, so had her do several problems on the board, which she did. "Well, sorry that's not the right way to do it."

      I'm all for easier or just different ways to do things, but arriving algorithmic-ally at a correct answer should NEVER be "wrong."

      If I was a teacher and my 10 year old pupil turned in homework using a different method than the one I'd taught, the options are (a) they're a child prodigy or (b) someone did their homework for them. I know which I'd assume first.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    17. Re:New math by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      I have a second grader. There was one week where they did practice grouping things into tens, and for that exercise grouping into tens was a requirement. The rest of the time it's just regular addition, as far as I've seen. At this point she's into two-digit word problems, and just lines them up and does the arithmetic like normal. Also, I've never seen anything with lines and circles the way you describe.

      There could be any number of reasons for this and I don't know the answer. It could be different districts, schools, or teachers interpret the program differently. It could be I'm experiencing confirmation bias and focusing on the things I recognize and tuning out the atrocious assignments. It could be the people who have a bone to pick with CC are focusing on one atrocious assignment and extrapolating negatively. Or all of the above, or something else.

    18. Re:New math by sjames · · Score: 1

      It could also be a good teacher that knows that isn't working and so went back to the tried and true.

    19. Re:New math by slinches · · Score: 2

      If I was a teacher and my 10 year old pupil turned in homework using a different method than the one I'd taught, the options are (a) they're a child prodigy or (b) someone did their homework for them. I know which I'd assume first.

      There's also option (c) they learned another method from someone else.

      But then you would have to acknowledge that schools aren't the only possible source of knowledge that exists.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    20. Re:New math by slinches · · Score: 1

      I'm all for easier or just different ways to do things, but arriving algorithmic-ally at a correct answer should NEVER be "wrong."

      I agree. It should never be wrong, but it might not fully meet the objective of the assignment. If the point was to learn an alternative method to do the same thing, then partial credit should be given. For things like arithmetic, if they have learned any method to reliably get the correct answer, I think it should count for 75% or more. No need to overly penalize kids when they inevitably "don't get" one of the methods as long as they understand at least one method well enough to get the right answer.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    21. Re:New math by sjames · · Score: 1

      OF COURSE I'm talking about arithmetic, the kids learning this are in the 2nd grade! I'm sure not going to insist they learn algebra before they learn to add 2 digit numbers successfully. But note that the educators call this "math" and that's the word they teach to the kids.

      And I'm not exaggerating. I wish I was.

      As for you, I suggest going back a couple grades further and learning how to interact with people without sounding like a braying ass.

    22. Re:New math by sjames · · Score: 1

      I think it's perfectly reasonable to memorize the table for single digit additions. I have no idea where you got 8+13 from.

    23. Re:New math by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or C, someone (Mom, Dad, older sibling, a tutor, etc) successfully taught the child a different approach that works. B is eliminated by the child demonstrating the ability to solve problems that way in front of the teacher, leaving A or C. In most cases, C is the more likely answer.

    24. Re:New math by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Actually, the correct statement is, arithmetic is a subset of math. Now what you missed is, rearranging the expression so that it consists as much as possible of even powers of tens is a kind of algebra. The kids don't know it, but they are learning a bit of algebra at the same time as simple arithmetic. As for who was braying, hint: one of us was shouting an unfounded claim. I hope that you now understand why your claim was unfounded, if not you should probably just stay far away from the education system.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    25. Re:New math by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It is useful because doing long division helps you to actually understand how division works.

      No it doesn't. I'ts a pointless rote memorisation of a series of steps.

      I never remembered it in school and yet I have had no problem understanding division. I was able to implement it just fine in asm on a CPU with no hardware instruction back in the day. I can figure it out or work it out on the very rare occasion I need it.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    26. Re:New math by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Think of it as introduction to algorithms if you must.

      If it was taught lke that, then sure. But it isn't. As we can see from your reply a vast amount of unnecessary weight is put on memorising this particular algorithm.

      It's basic literacy,

      No it isnt. Being able to do high precision calculations on paper just isnt that much of a useful skill to 99.99% of the population. Its not lke writing where not being able to do it hampers someone a lot. Its easy to lookup/figure out, but Ive simply never needed or used it enough to memorise it. It's just not that important.

      Being able to rapidly make calculations to a couple of significant figures is a MUCH more useful skill and something I do a lot. People who can't do often get in a pickle since they cant sanity check their automated calculations.

      But long division? Meh.

      I would not want to drive over a bridge designed by an engineer who couldn't do long division.

      I dont see why it matters. I wouldnt want to go over a bridge designed by an engineer who couldn't do rapid order of magnitude estimates.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    27. Re:New math by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Being able to rapidly make calculations to a couple of significant figures is a MUCH more useful skill and something I do a lot.

      Oh, you mean like estimating each digit of the dividend? You just gave away that you never really did understand the division algorithm. You also seem to be confused about the difference between learning and memorizing. I hope you never did design a bridge, your attitude towards intellectual competency is disconcerting to say the least.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    28. Re:New math by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Oh, you mean like estimating each digit of the dividend?

      Only the first few.

      You just gave away that you never really did understand the division algorithm.

      The? You are aware there's more than one, right?

      You also seem to be confused about the difference between learning and memorizing.

      The meaning of division is distinct from any particular algorithm used to calculate the digits of a particular example. For actual understanding the former is more important than the latter. In education we seem to place a large emphasis on the latter.

      your attitude towards intellectual competency is disconcerting to say the least.

      Yeah I want people to understand stuff rather than just do rote memorisation of opaque algorithms. I can see how that would be disconcerting to you as you clearly favour rote memorisation.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    29. Re:New math by sjames · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming they want it to really be 8+2+3 = 10+3 = 13 - seeking to find the larger digits. This doesn't really matter for the single digit arithmetic, but when you add say 892 and 253, how do you do it? You can do the classical digit by digit carrying approach, but that is hard to do in your head. Instead, you can look and see that you need 108 to raise 892 to 1000 and then reduce your problem to 253-108, which you'd similarly reduce to 200-100 + 40 + 13 -8 = 145. The goal is not the problem, but the process of understanding what one is doing. This approach is also less prone to silly errors.

      So 892+253=145? And that method is easier and less prone to errors you say? (I know, you just forgot the 1000 you had from earlier). I would just pattern recognize that 2+3 is 5, leaving (89+25)*10, or (90+24)*10, so there's the 40 leaving (9+2)*100. 9+x=10+x-1. Or the pattern that 9+x = 10 + (x-1) might fire first once I have the 1s digit out of the way, also 8+2 = 10, so (89+25)*10, 8+2 = 10 so that's 1000, 5+9 = 10+4 (times 10)

      As for 253-108, why not either add 2 to both yielding 255-110, or take 3 from both yielding 250-105 = 250-100-5 = 150-5 = 145?

      The point is that your way and both of mine are not WRONG, they yield the correct answer and demonstrate an understanding of the problem. As in 8+5 = (3+5)+5 = 3+(5+5) = 3+10 = 13 (the pattern that 5+5=10 having fired). None of those are wrong unless you're an unfortunate 2nd grader getting a common core math education. Your way will never be as fast and easy FOR ME. My way may well not be as fast and easy FOR YOU. If the pattern 8+5=13 fires first for the kid, he's not wrong, the problem was just too simple to demonstrate his skills. Demanding that he NOT do that, but go through the whole rigmarole with one lobe tied behind his back is like making someone scrub the floor with a toothbrush as punishment.

      As for the student that came up with $-1,064,507.94, I have no idea what that is since the only way to be more wrong wouldn't be a numerical answer, but I wouldn't mind buying a car from him as long as he computes the payments :-)

      I do think there is value in teaching estimation and basic sanity checking based on an expected magnitude at least, but that needs to wait until the student has mastered the 4 basic functions so that they can HAVE some expectation of magnitude.

    30. Re:New math by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      You're the same guy who said he couldn't do long division, now you boast about your impressive capacity to understand higher math, a capacity apparently only you possess. In reality, you are just an ass who bets a boner from hearing himself talk.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    31. Re:New math by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      "No it doesn't. I'ts a pointless rote memorisation of a series of steps."

      Ummm... yes. The steps which constitute decimal division.

      I find it difficult to understand how you implemented anything if "perform two steps, rinse and repeat as needed", is too complicated for you. Other than being slightly more difficult without paper I don't see how it is any more or less complicated than anything else in arithmetic.

    32. Re:New math by aybiss · · Score: 1

      By the time you've been taught how to carry digits between columns like you do with addition and subtraction and multiplication, you should have been able to work out why you did all the steps in division. If you didn't and your teacher didn't explain it if you were curious enough to ask then that's a bad teacher. If you weren't curious enough to ask then it didn't matter - you had a way to precisely calculation division and that was all you were going to need in life if it ever came up.

      --
      It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
  8. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Insightful

    because the kids are learning math differently (circles and lines everywhere, aka 'common core') than their parents did...

    90% of people complaining about "Common Core" don't even know what it is. It is mostly just normal math, and understanding "circles and lines" is a very important part of math. Math is more than just arithmetic.

  9. Re:Not my daughter. by Octorian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Girls can definitely do math. However, it seems like its more socially acceptable for them to brag about how they're bad at it. Maybe that's the real problem here.

  10. That isn't "math anxiety." by bistromath007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The described situation is social anxiety. Any connection to math is purely incidental.

    Actual math anxiety stems wholly from the fact that any sane person would be anxious if you told them you were going to force them to practice various riffs on elementary algebra for twelve years and call it "math."

    1. Re:That isn't "math anxiety." by gweihir · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We did set theory (and hence elementary logic) in elementary school. Probably the mart that was most useful to me later. A few years later they dropped it because it was "too hard". I never noticed that, I think this was purely the adults projecting.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:That isn't "math anxiety." by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Kind of social pressure. There wouldn't be anxiety If nobody cared about maths.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    3. Re:That isn't "math anxiety." by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      various riffs on elementary algebra

      I suspect that you don't know what elementary algebra actually is.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    4. Re:That isn't "math anxiety." by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Maths is often singled out because it's so important, one of the basic skills you need to learn lots of other stuff successfully. It's widely seen as both difficult and something that people have an innate aptitude for, and conversely an innate ineptitude for too.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:That isn't "math anxiety." by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      My daughter will be entering High school next year. She's above grade level in Math and doing well. The High School has an excellent teacher that teaches a geometry class - it's about euclid's postulates and how you can use them in geometric proofs. It starts with a handful of postulates and shows how to do a proof step by step. The big deal is apparently putting in the time to learn the postulates and then get the knack of churning out the proofs

      Many kids find it hard, in part because it is a different kind of math for them and in part because it's their first year in HS and the teaching methods change to place more of the onus on the student to keep up (with plenty of opportunities given). And probably in part because if they don't put the work in early on to learn the first half dozen or so postulates so by the time they realize that they are supposed to be memorizing them they get overwhelmed. They lack the maturity to approach the math teacher and get help before things slide too far.

      My daughter doesn't want to take the course, she's intimidated by it, and I suspect afraid of failing. We can't even have a conversation about it, within a few words of broaching the subject you can see a physical reaction in her

      I wish I could find a way to convince her that she will have the support she needs, that the course isn't so bad as she may have heard, and that the teacher is excellent and will give her every opportunity to succeed

      --
      Nullius in verba
  11. Re:Not my daughter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's more socially acceptable for girls to give up or never try at all. Doing so does not hurt their social status or dating chances.

    Girls are born valuable and they know it. Boys have to earn their place and they know it too.

    Just look for the "neckbeard" or "incel" comments as proof. What is the female version of those two terms? They don't exist, because no woman is without value.

  12. Re: Not my daughter. by nctritech · · Score: 2

    God damn do I love Unicode.

  13. Re:Not my daughter. by Octorian · · Score: 2

    Just look for the "neckbeard" or "incel" comments as proof. What is the female version of those two terms?

    Crazy cat lady?
    (Then again, its almost orthogonal to most of what's being discussed here.)

  14. More testing by AHuxley · · Score: 2

    Will sort out the smart students from the average and well below average.
    Allow the really smart to enter the more advanced math classes.
    Put the average and well below average into math classes with math set to their ability.
    The best students get to college on merit and ability.
    The average and well below average get to study math they can understand.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:More testing by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      Thats why more testing and an entrance exam would be so good.
      Its stops all non academic considerations.
      Pass the same text under the same conditions and anyone smart wealthy/on a full scholarship gets in.
      Wealth would just offer no loan, no need for a scholarship. Approval would still need a great result on the same exam.
      The same academic ability would be needed.

      Within a generation the USA would have the best students in the world again.
      No more non academic considerations for college.
      Sport? Get a full scholarship but actually have to be really, really great at that sport :)
      Offer a much better GI Bill but again only to people who can pass the same exam.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:More testing by Matheus · · Score: 1

      We didn't need more testing when I was a kid.. our teachers could observe our abilities based on their experience and the metrics at hand (as well as you know.. talking to us about it). Those of us who were being bored by the traditional track were moved up to something that actually challenged us.

  15. Well, math anxiety... by zkiwi34 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's long been known that when kids are learning math:

    * They have family who generally have had bad experiences when they learned math.
    * They have teachers in their early years without the interest, ability, or confidence to teach math

    The message comes across loud and and clear - math is hard/confusing/not for mere mortals.

    1. Re: Well, math anxiety... by reanjr · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That's true for any subject that isn't predominantly just talking about shit. Any topic with objective measurements of success and failure is cause for anxiety from those who can't do it. Other subjects you can bullshit through, parrot a few sentances, and your teacher can subjectively pass you. As soon as there I an objective measure, you have kids who are objectively failures.

    2. Re:Well, math anxiety... by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Informative

      That explains why I liked math as a kid.

      My parents were both naturally good at math but in college one was an art major the other philosophy. They both took extra math and science classes as electives. So they had a confident but relaxed attitude towards math.

      And on the last day of 1st grade, they put a bunch of surplus math worksheets from grades 2-4 out on a table, for students who wanted to take home something to look at over the summer. I took one of each home and completed them by myself, so the teachers didn't have a chance to taint me before I could figure out that it is actually all very simple, just following steps in order.

      It took years of awful teaching for me to start hating math class, but I was never confused about it; I always knew I liked the math, just not the class!

    3. Re: Well, math anxiety... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      It's not objectivity. After all, middle school history is still a lot of date memorizations. And science too. ?The problem is a lot of teachers struggled with math specifically. And so did a lot of parents. Hell, compare the social reactions you get from "I am illiterate" and "I never understood algebra"

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    4. Re: Well, math anxiety... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Maths and "talky" subjects are more similar than you think.

      At least back when I was at school you had to show your working in maths. If you didn't you couldn't get half the marks on the exam, you had to demonstrate you were using an appropriate method to solve the problem.

      Same with English Literature. No good just parroting the notes for that Tom Hardy novel, you had to demonstrate some grasp of the techniques used to tell stories and explain how the different elements were constructed.

      Part of the reason for that was to prevent kids bullshitting their way through in the manner you describe.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Well, math anxiety... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I can remember being 2 years old. Only bits and pieces.

      But I remember pretty much everything from about age 4.

      Maybe you were just dropped on your head or something?

  16. Re:Math is stupid & useless. by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Well, you could use more is a) the selection was better and b) there was more real-world connection.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  17. Huh? by DogDude · · Score: 1

    What the hell is "social anxiety" and what does it have to do with math?

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Huh? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Contextual anxiety related to social settings.

      Actual "math anxiety" that isn't just mislabeled social anxiety would be something you feel when doing math. That isn't what is described. What is described is anxiety that is related to being in math class, especially, being called on and having the class focus on them, or the pressure of taking a math test. And it seems to affect students who are good at math the most, which makes perfect sense for social anxiety, but not for math anxiety.

      People who are good at math that encounter a situation in their daily life that benefits from a calculation, they don't feel anxiety, they feel empowerment. These are the same people at risk of anxiety in math class. Because the anxiety is caused by their parents and teachers, not by the math. If they think you're better at math, they're more likely to do the shit that causes the anxiety, too.

    2. Re:Huh? by Shaitan · · Score: 1

      So, stop calling on kids in class. Simple.

    3. Re: Huh? by bistromath007 · · Score: 1

      Somebody explained this well, so I won't, but I keep coming back to this question and it really confuses me. Social anxiety is the thing that is real (i.e., it's in the DSM) and well-known, to the point that there have been commercials about meds for it for years. By contrast, "math anxiety" is pretty much entirely a bunch of moron "educators" squabbling about why kids hate and do poorly at math class, which is a thing almost designed from the ground up to teach kids to hate math. Just... What planet did this question come from?

    4. Re: Huh? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      I ended up reading about "social anxiety", and it turns out it's a formal way of saying that somebody is "shy". I don't know what that has to do with not liking math.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
  18. Collect the dumb kids together by reanjr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The pacing of math is wrong for the vast majority of kids. Many are bored to death, just as many are confused and barely skating through. But our math education is all laid out on a rigid timeline. We need to not just get of rid of the idea of grades (4th grade math is a stupid concept), but we also need to actively collect dumb students and smart students into their own groups early on.

    Math education should simply be standardized tests that you can take when you feel ready. Any other form of grading or advancement will inevitably lead to a poor education for the majority of the students.

  19. Re: Math is stupid & useless. by reanjr · · Score: 1

    Liberal agenda? I think it would be news to most that people like the Rockefellers were liberals.

  20. Re: Arithmetic by reanjr · · Score: 1

    When did you unilaterally decide arithmetic was no longer a branch of mathematics?

  21. Re:I was a crappy student by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    This 'nerd' is associated with everything considered smart.

    That explains why you're an arsesmart farmer.

  22. Wishy Washy Rationalizations by hedge00 · · Score: 2

    Maybe kids have trouble with math because they're taught that their unrefined and subjective emotions are significant. The apologist author of this paper seems be afflicted by the same problem.

    1. Re:Wishy Washy Rationalizations by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Subjective emotions are important. Ultimately, the reason things like computers and technology are good is because they make people happy.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    2. Re:Wishy Washy Rationalizations by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Subjective emotions are important. Ultimately, the reason things like computers and technology are good is because they make people happy.

      But ultimately, that's not the reason they work.

  23. Re:Not my daughter. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

    5 in AP Calculus

    Ah, a failing grade, then.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  24. Re:Arithmetic by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    When did simple arithmetic become mathematics?

    In ancient Greek, "mathema" meant knowledge or learning.

    "Mathematikos" meant a person who is fond of learning.

    From there it became the Latin "mathematica," and then Old French "mathematique."

    It became "mathematics" in the late 16th century when it was borrowed by English from the French.

    Unfortunately, I didn't find any Minoan references that would hint at where the Greeks got the word. The roots are definitely deeper than stated.

  25. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I tried to understand the results of Common Core but I can't find any data to determine if it's helping....or if it's just different.

    The answer most likely is "neither". It isn't helping much because it isn't different. Common Core is just a standardization of normal math education.

    It's too polarizing of a topic to get non-biased data about as far as I can tell.

    The polarization is mostly from idiots who have no idea what Common Core is.

    Most of the anti-CC kooks on the right think Common Core comes from the UN or the Federal government. It doesn't.

    Most of the anti-CC kooks on the left think Common Core means teach-to-the-test, and disempowers teachers. It doesn't. CC doesn't specify any particular tests, and it was designed by teachers.

  26. Great, except that wouldn't work by Texmaize · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I know you mean well. I know you solution of just passing tests seems like it would make sense to many as logical and reasonable. It would to me too if I had spent close to zero hours on the other side of the desk. Certainly not in a k-12 setting. Your idea does have some merits in a perfect world, but as it is we live in a resource limited world.

    We do not structure our classes the way we do because they are the most effective for learning. We do it so the most kids can be reached per staffing dollar. Your class format would simply be unteachable. Kids often need help and explanations for each topic. Non-mathy kids (most) struggle with texts. If you personalize lessons to each kid, then you would need an incredible amount of teachers. Maybe as a society if we truly valued education, we could afford this. The bald truth is we do not. So, we don't.

    In private schools, they do what really works which is have smaller, homogenous classes of about 10-14. This is good because students really do learn well from talking to each other. You can also read body language and give fast help as needed. This type of intervention is probably closest to what the OP meant.

    The seriously bad mistake that has been introduced into the class since you have been in school is the idea of differentiated learning. Some genius had the idea it is more important to make kids feel good instead of actually teaching them at their level. So, math classes are no longer tracked in any meaningful way until late junior high. All kids of all ability levels are in the same room. The teacher is supposed to come up with lessons to reach all students. Which means you have to cater to less strong students. The average students quickly learn to play dumb so they get less work or at least easier stuff. The brighter kids just get bored.

    The one year I was in this system, I had honors kids mixed with special ed. It was not effective for anyone. The thing is, the special needs kid could learn math, but you had to go slower and re-explain. If he was with similar ability, then he could have advanced well. Since he was outclassed by most of his peers, he felt like a bother, which made it harder to reach him because he did not want his friends to get impatient. I truly loathe the administrators who came up with this scheme. It was so frustrating.

    The best solution is to probably reduce class sizes to levels like private schools. Sadly, I do not foresee this happening. The other factor is that the U.S. spends more per student than any one else. What you might have never heard is that more than a lion's share of that funding goes into administration. So, even if you offer more, it won't go to the kids. If we want change, we need to change the culture of the schools and how they are ran. I am very pessimistic about such a change because there is way to much money being made by way to many. That sort of corruption is hard to conquer.

    --
    "Liberalism is a very noble idea, currently controlled by some very bad people. Be sure you do not get the two confused.
    1. Re:Great, except that wouldn't work by laughing_badger · · Score: 1

      Wish I had mod points.

      --
      Help children born unable to swallow - www.tofs.org.uk
    2. Re: Great, except that wouldn't work by reanjr · · Score: 2

      Those resources are only limited because we waste so much on things like intramural sports and teaching world history to 2nd graders. Of course it requires more resources to apply private school style math education to all students, but at the same time everyone keeps claiming that math is super important to anyone operating in the modern world. We need to put our money where our mouths are.

      And to be clear, I'm not suggesting we don't teach the kids and just wait for them to learn an pass on their own. Like you, I'm suggesting peer groups of those at the same level. Though I don't see any significant issue if you have 18 year olds in with 6 year olds all learning arithmetio and numeric literacy. If that's where you're at, that's where you're at.

  27. this used to be called mathophobia by themusicgod1 · · Score: 1

    It's a problem that's been with us for a while.

    --
    GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  28. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I know at least how they want people to do addition, and it's crap. Arithmetic needs no circles and lines. It is an algorithmic process.

    They attempt to teach the kids mental shortcuts before they even know the long way, and that's why it fails. Worse, they teach the shortcut wrong.

    And the nonsense about marking a useful thought process that arrives logically at the correct answer wrong because it's not the official holy thought process is wrong headed in the extreme.

    Educators are constantly harping on parental involvement, but then they shove parents out of it by insisting on their odd approach to math where not only do the parents have no idea what the teacher wants to see for an answer, but if they start from scratch and teach THEIR child how to do arithmetic "the old way", the child will flunk even if he never produces an incorrect answer.

    Why WOULDN'T that produce anxiety?

  29. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 1, Troll

    I have actually watched simple math problems being solved the common core way. It's cuckoo. Adding the common core way doesn't teach concepts because you need to be able to add BEFORE you can really get the concepts.

    If THAT is just standardizing how they've already been teaching math (apparently after my time), it's no damned wonder there's so many people who can't do arithmetic if their battery goes dead.

  30. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    I have actually watched simple math problems being solved the common core way. It's cuckoo.

    Got any links? Common core is a US thing, so I don't really have a clue about it. I dont even really know how maths is taught in my own country any more since its been a bery long time since I've been in the primary or secondary education systems.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  31. Re:Not my daughter. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just look for the "neckbeard" or "incel" comments as proof. What is the female version of those two terms? They don't exist

    "incel" was a term coined by a woman about herself.

    It was co-opted by a very nasty, woman hating movement who have thoroughly poisoned the term. A comunity I suspect you're a part of because one of its defining attributes is pretending women have no troubles in anything at all ever.

    Despite the whole thing being started by a woman.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  32. Re:I was a crappy student by Shaitan · · Score: 2

    Or maybe we need to start emphasizing actual valuable skills and achievements like math and disparaging clowns chasing pointless pursuits with no purpose like their "social image."

  33. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by Shaitan · · Score: 1

    Arithmetic is not more than just arithmetic.

  34. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    I was impressed to find my kid being taught something about symmetry in grade 5, something they may return to if they ever get to advanced physics.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  35. Re: perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by Shaitan · · Score: 1

    Usually people are talking about arithmetic. You can't do arithmetic without knowing what you are doing. For that stuff you are better off just being a human calculator.

  36. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by Shaitan · · Score: 1

    I'm going to go out on a limb here but I suppose it doesn't create anxiety because this is regarding anxiety in girls in the uk and italy, not the us.

  37. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    Arithmetic needs no circles and lines. It is an algorithmic process.

    You can approach it algorithmically and end up being able to get the right answer without understanding, or you can approach it algebraically and learn concepts that will be essential later.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  38. The 'world' is urban dictionary? What about BBC? by nnappe · · Score: 3, Informative

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world...

    Seriously, Wikipedia is a site where everyone posts what they think with little oversight but UD it's a joke site, that doesn't even try to be a serious definition.

  39. Set theory by nnappe · · Score: 3, Informative

    In Argentina, during the last right wing, US backed, dictatorship set theory was also removed from elementary school.
    The reasoning was (translation is mine) that it 'promotes the Soviet idea of the collective, and of grouping as an indispensable relationship in problem solving'. I wonder how much of red scare factor was behind the similar move in the US.

    1. Re:Set theory by gweihir · · Score: 1

      They seriously used _that_ as a reason? People this extremely irrational and panicky have no business deciding what gets taught in school.

      Oh, well. Most people cannot be engineers or scientists (or good coders, which are basically engineers in anything but name) anyways. Maybe we should give everybody an aptitude test at age 6 and then give the 10...15% that can actually think the full, science-heavy and math-heavy curriculum and teach the others flower arrangement, internet shopping, poetry appreciation and other things that they can actually master. Then the 10...15% can run and decide everything important and the rest can be under the illusion they are the ones that matter.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  40. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    "studied the experiences of a total of 2,700 primary and secondary students in the UK and Italy"
     
    but ok.

  41. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    There are Youtube videos on every common core math lesson. Common core does make sense, it is just different, and seems roundabout, but the idea is good.

  42. Re:Not my daughter. by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

    The world seems to disagree with you.

    https://www.urbandictionary.co...

    You want to present Urban Dictionary (or any crowd-written internet site) as an authoritative information source? Ahahahaha....

  43. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by thereddaikon · · Score: 1

    Your comment makes me think of its opposite number in the UN cooling technology thread that claimed all liberals want a return a pre-industrial hunamity because NAAAATUUUUREEEE MAN.

    Its of course ridiculous. That's not even what a majority of liberals think. That's a vocal fringe group.

    And your comment is exactly the same but flipped the other way around.

    No, most people who criticize common core do not think its some crazy UN conspiracy. Most people who criticize common core do so because it is a very strange and different way to do arithmetic than they are used to. The arguments I have heard for it by educators is that it helps get you thinking in the right mindset to deal with higher level math down the road. While this may be true, and I'm not sure, it does seem to be less efficient at the four basic operations, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. There is also a high degree of frustration on the part of parents who are unequipped to help their kids study common core or do their homework.

    Think of it from the parents perspective:

    I know I don't have the time in my day to learn number sense on top of everything else I have to fit in 24 hours. So if I see a homework assignment that instead of asking a simple math problem and instead uses some "made up" words and "fake" notation, I'll just throw my hands up.

  44. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by thereddaikon · · Score: 2

    Common Core is the Systemd of the education world. Might have a decent idea here or there but that has been completely muddle by poor implementation and leadership who rule with an iron fist.

  45. Re: Math is stupid & useless. by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

    I think it would be news to most that people like the Rockefellers were liberals.

    Well, the Rockefellers were never socialists, to be sure. But "Rockefeller Republicans" is (or at least used to be) shorthand for the liberal wing of the Republican party.

  46. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by thereddaikon · · Score: 1

    I don't think we should be teaching elementary school kids alegbra until they have first mastered arithmetic. That's putting the cart before the horse.

  47. There's no dumb or smart from what I've seen by lamer01 · · Score: 2

    There are just different types of brains. I know I learned differently when I was young. I don't know if no one tried to explain it to me correctly but I remember being totally bamboozled by math abstractions like variables and functions. like y=f(x) would cause an aneurysm. It turned out that my brain does perfectly fine dealing with these concepts as I am perfectly fine writing functional programs. Where my brain still has problems is reading long ass formulas with single letter variables. It must be some kind of defect. The exact same formula with well named variables is perfectly understood by my brain. Anyway, I digress. When my daughter was growing up she had a variety of math teachers and variety of ways of being taught math. When she had lousy teachers she did poorly. When she had good teachers she did really well. Even though she always though she sucked at math she was actually in honors math through out high school. She was by no means a math genious, those kids are obvious when you see them but she got good grades and did really well in the sat's and got into a fantastic university. She still thinks she sucks at math. .

  48. Re:Not my daughter. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

    Girls can definitely do math. However, it seems like its more socially acceptable for them to brag about how they're bad at it. Maybe that's the real problem here.

    Females who can do math can do math. There is an important and critical distinction there.

    In out time of flexible everything, from gender to claims that anyone can be anything they desire if they only try hard enough - the article is kind of correct - parents and teachers are causing a problem.

    But this problem is going the wrong way. The poor young ladies brought to tears are perhaps not good at math. Not everyone is. Not all people with penises are good at math either.

    And it is not necessarily the patriarchy's cancerous influence if less females are interested in math than people with penises.

    If a woman is interested in math, and wants to pursue a career in a math heavy field, that is wonderful. That's the triumph of the individual. I've worked with women who make me look like a real slouch in these things. You go girl - you're bringing value.

    But today's opposite pressure on young girls, a weird enforcement of disciplines that the girls may or may not be interested in, is stupid, and more likely to backfire than succeed. You can't ideologize interest.

    You expose children to concepts, and if they like a field, you let them pursue it.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  49. Re:Not my daughter. by Shaitan · · Score: 1

    Of internet slang terms? Sure.

    Further, it is language, its definition is common usage. Sure they are cheekily phrased but consistently exactly the opposite of what the GP suggested, as is all usage of the term I've seen here (the only place I see anyone using this term).

  50. Re:I was a crappy student by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    This 'nerd' is associated with everything considered smart.

    That explains why you're an arsesmart farmer.

    arsesmart? I have questions.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  51. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by ganv · · Score: 2
    Sorry you have some bad teachers. I am a big fan of visualization approaches to arithmetic, and have seen teachers use it to help kids, including my daughter, understand intuitively rather than try to become computers. They still learn the algorithms, but when they can visualize on the number line that 244+389 is somewhere in the 600 range without doing any calculations, then they are ready to pick up negative numbers, they are much less likely to accept unreasonable answers, and they take a big step toward the visualization methods used by experts in advanced subjects.

    I think the problem is teachers and parents who don't really understand math intuitively are passing on a garbled version of the new curriculum. Or worse, they are passing on a math phobia. If parents replaced their criticism of new curriculum with "I can learn this approach", they would pass on to their kids the growth mindset about math that is the main key to their future success.

  52. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    Math is more than just arithmetic.

    What is the difference?

    Way back in the dark ages when I was in school....they were synonymous terms.....?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  53. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
    So, they don't have you memorize the multiplication tables, through the 12's like they did back in my day or other things like that?

    God I hated that, mom and dad basically grounded me till I got them memorized, but once I did, it stuck with me for life.

    When doing anything math related to multiplying, I don't have to sit and think usually, I just know the answer.

    Is the new math (some people are calling Comon Core?) methods not using any rote memorization and ways of teaching that seemed perfectly effective back in the prehistoric ages when I was in school?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  54. logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Math requires logic and abstract thinking, both of which are slowly developing in children under 10 years of age.

    That's why simple counting and rote memorization of addition and multiplication are the normal way of teaching math for the first few years of school.

    Some faults just having kids go through the K - 9 grades
    - Not using grid paper for multiplication and long division to ensure numbers are in the right columns
    - Consumable textbooks / workbooks with much too little space to work the problem out
    - Consumable textbooks / workbooks with 50% or more of the page space spent on pictures of animals, kids, balloons, etc not having anything to do with the problems
    - Teachers combining multiple steps into a single step
    - Teachers giving a shortcut way to compute the answer before the kids even understand and are proficient with the long way
    - Teachers not insisting that kids write down what the already know before starting the problem
    - Teachers not writing problems down using words instead of symbols -> (price paid) = (original cost) + (original cost) * (tax rate)
    - Teachers not reinforcing how to rearrange terms in an X + Y + Z type of equation

    The long way works and is proven via hundreds of years of trials to work.
    The new math shortcuts have merit but only after high mastery of the long way.

  55. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by apoc.famine · · Score: 5, Informative

    It looks crazy because of four reasons:

    1) You didn't grow up with it, and it's really unfamiliar to you.
    2) More than likely, you've seen a bit of the middle, but not the fundamentals necessary to get there.
    3) What you think is being taught is likely not what's being taught.
    4) The teacher teaching it didn't grow up with it either, and may not be all that good at teaching it.

    To the third point, where we learned one thing by rote learning, kids now are instead learning several methodological skills that accomplish the same thing, but which can later extend into higher order math. Rote learning doesn't provide that foundation. We look at them and say, "Why the hell are they making multiplication so fucking difficult?" In reality, they're not teaching multiplication, at least not the way we learned it. Entwined in what they're teaching are some linear algebra concepts and some matrix math.

    Instead of doing rote memorization of times tables, they're teaching the process to multiply any numbers together. What's really confusing is that they're doing this at the point in school where we all just memorized the times tables up to maybe 12x12. If you don't understand that what they're teaching is fundamentally different than what you were taught, yeah, it looks crazy if you're expecting those kids to be memorizing what 8 * 6 is. That's not what they're doing.

    "Why not just teach multiplication?" It's a valid question, but that presumes how we were taught multiplication is the best way. We really learned most of our math by brute forcing it all on rote memory. As that's our muscle memory, it seems to us that that's the easiest path forward. When we got to linear algebra and some of the higher order math, for a lot of us it was the same "new concepts, smash until understand" process that we learned in our earlier math classes. The idea with this new way of teaching math is to dispatch with all of that, and instead build in methods and processes from the beginning that can be leveraged in later math classes.

    Fundamentally, it's pretty damn sound. Unfortunately, we're living in the first generation of a new way to do mathematics, and dealing with that sometimes rocky transition.

    To the last point, I think that the next generation of math teachers will likely do a much better job teaching it, because they grew up with it. But it's a chicken and egg problem - kids can't learn a new way to do math if the teachers don't teach it, and the teachers can't teach it until they learn it. Unfortunately a whole lot of teachers haven't really learned it yet, in part because of the same cogitative dissonance we experience when looking at it. It's going to be a generation or two until math teachers are good at it, and unfortunately we're the ones that are suffering through it in the mean time.

    --
    Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  56. Re: Math is stupid & useless. by reanjr · · Score: 1

    Perhaps, but that's more of a semantic argument, as liberal today means something quite different from what it meant during the Gilded Age. The modern parallel is libertarian.

  57. Re:Not my daughter. by DaFallus · · Score: 1

    Just look for the "neckbeard" or "incel" comments as proof. What is the female version of those two terms? They don't exist

    "incel" was a term coined by a woman about herself.

    It was co-opted by a very nasty, woman hating movement who have thoroughly poisoned the term. A comunity I suspect you're a part of because one of its defining attributes is pretending women have no troubles in anything at all ever.

    Despite the whole thing being started by a woman.

    That may be how the word was initially used, but language evolves quickly. The only time I see people use the term incel is to insult men who have a differing view about a topic that mainly concerns women. Granted, most of the people being called incel appear to be assholes, but I don't think I've ever seen it applied to a woman in a derogatory way.

    --
    No one cares what your captcha was

    Houston TX, USA
  58. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 2

    It makes sense once you are already comfortable with doing the arithmetic, it does not make sense when you are just learning to do the arithmetic in the first place.

  59. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 1

    Best bet, go to youtube, search on common core math. You'll get pages of relevant videos.

  60. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 1

    The idea is to teach the algorithm. The child gets to see that it works and gets a sense of accomplishment. Then they learn why and how it works. Then they learn how to do it faster.

    That seems a lot more likely to work than hiding the algorithm behind a mysterious process that ALSO gets memorized without understanding, and then expecting a connection to magically happen.

  61. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by Micah+NC · · Score: 1

    Parent of children that I have helped with Common Core math here ...

    All by itself this is a reason I am pulling my kids out of public school at the end of this year.

    The "ten boxes" are confusing supremo and often times my wife and I cannot help them. I have two science degrees, score 600 on the math part of the SAT, and passed Statistics for math majors in college with a B.

    I have a buddy who is a high ranking admin in a charter school. I asked him what good it is being in the charter system if you have to follow the *OUTRAGEOUS* public school regulations, and he told me, "We don't have to teach Common Core".

    Bam !!! He persuaded me.

  62. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 1

    Actually, I had good teachers. In the '70s. Good enough that I was able to work out decompositions that actually work for me while in upper elementary grades.

    Note that in the '70s, we also had a form of "new math", but they sensibly waited until the 5th grade to delve into that AFTER we learned how to do arithmetic properly in order to expand on earlier successes. Of course, they then went on to belabor the point until I was sick of dealing with the obvious.

    The common core topic being discussed here is arithmetic, not estimation. That topic was also taught later AFTER we had mastered arithmetic.

  63. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 1

    Not at all. I see what they're doing. I also see that they're putting the cart before the horse and wondering why the kids are getting nowhere.

    While learning the tables, I learned the commutative property of addition and later multiplication by spotting the pattern in the printed table. That allowed me to halve the amount I had to memorize. Since we were concurrently learning to deal with addition and multiplication in columns with carrying, I also realized that I needn't bother memorizing the 11s and 12s. Through comparing addition and multiplication, it also instilled in me the knowledge that these were not discrete operations, but rather part of an internally consistent system known as mathematics.

    A key to that is that I wasn't officially WRONG for not doing it some bass ackwards way involving circles and lines even though I had the correct answer and showed valid work to get there.

    If the teachers don't understand it either, it is seriously irresponsible to sacrifice a generation of kids to that while they get up to speed rather than just having the teachers teach what they DO understand so that Johnny will be able to balance a check book.

  64. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 1

    Go look at what is actually being taught to the kids. End of the day, that's what actually matters.

    But nevertheless, I did follow your link and as a result, I am more convinced than ever that it's a bad idea. What to hell is up with:

    CCSS.MATH.CONTENT.2.OA.A.1 Use addition and subtraction within 100 to solve one- and two-step word problems involving situations of adding to, taking from, putting together, taking apart, and comparing, with unknowns in all positions, e.g., by using drawings and equations with a symbol for the unknown number to represent the problem.1

    How about learn how to ADD? Then learn how to estimate. If you know how to get the exact answer, it's easy to ballpark. If all you know is ballparking, the exact answer will still elude you.

  65. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    Bad analogy: algebra may be taught without reference to numbers at all, only abstract operations. So it is simply wrong to talk about an arithmetic horse pulling an algebra cart.

    I view your position as coming out on the side of drudgery, at the risk of turning many potentially good students of math away in disgust. Arithmetic also includes square roots, does "mastering" arithmetic include learning an algorithm for computing square roots, or should the students already be learning other abstract concepts before that? Do they ever even need to master square root arithmetic? Do they need to learn complex multiplication, which is also arithmetic, or should they learn the principle of distribution first? Perhaps you have your own private definition of "mastery", which includes some subset of arithmetic. If so, the only issue is which subset. Personally, I favor introducing some abstract concepts such as variables and associativity immediately after learning single digit addition. After all, how much arithmetic do you really need, to understand that (a + b) + c = a + (b + c)? Kids can easily learn this one with lego blocks.

    These days, arithmetic and other more abstract branches of mathematics are introduced early and together. Students on the whole tend to progress further and faster than we old folks ever did. Something to keep in mind when shouting at those teacher kids to get off your algebra lawn.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  66. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    So, they don't have you memorize the multiplication tables, through the 12's like they did back in my day or other things like that?

    Teach them first how to compute the results and memorize the answers later. Not only does this introduce powerful tools and concepts early, it reduces anxiety in the common case that some entry in the multiplication table slips the mind - it can always be constructed.

    Kids don't even need to learn the decimal multiplication algorithm to do this, repetitive adding is perfectly sufficient, especially when combined with memorizing some of the results that were computed earlier.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  67. Re: I was a crappy student by Shaitan · · Score: 1

    Actually a big part of the problem in the world is that the social crap has taken over the universities. Virtually none of it gets replicated but it is touted as "science" and sadly credibility from real and reliable science like physical sciences rubs off on it.

  68. Re:I was a crappy student by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    I doubt it provides many answers, other than, "don't use this one."

  69. Re:Math is stupid & useless. by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Ah, I see you are one of _those_. Please stay in your filter-bubble.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  70. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by ganv · · Score: 1

    The 'bar graph' approach to arithmetic I am talking about is a key part of arithmetic in Singapore math and similar curricula. It is useful for estimation, but that is not the main point of it. Kids that adopt these visualizations are often much better prepared for future work in word problems, negative numbers, and they come to understand math as the intuitive way numbers work rather than an algorithm to be memorized.

  71. Re:perhaps kids are like this in the u.s. by sjames · · Score: 1

    It's not unlike what I had in the first grade where we had images of concrete objects (sticks, oranges, etc) with the mumbers underneath.