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MS unveils Universal Plug and Play @ CES
Anonymous Coward writes "Microsoft unveiled plans for networking people's homes . It says they'll use "internet protocols." Hopefully these will be actual generic internet protocols, lest our toasters start crashing with the required NT boxen. "
"In microsoft's vision of the future, home devices will be syncronized with each other, and every appliance will be intelligent"
Well this *is* microsoft.. so maybe every appliance *will* be intelligent... except the computer.
Betcha $20 the average vacuum runs WinCE in 10 years...
Well this will make things for toster developers (since they have the source code). And this will save the community the pain of rewriteing the MS/SUN protocol when one of those becomes standard ! :)
h_al_mohssen@stupid.ms.hotmail.com
Well this will make things easier for toster developers (since they have the source code). And this will save the community the pain of rewriteing the MS/SUN protocol when one of those becomes standard ! :)
h_al_mohssen@stupid.ms.hotmail.com
You know, X10. That protocol thats been around since the eighties. ITs the ones that lets you use your computer to control various things in your house. you know, the one that has support under Linux? Yeah..That one...what happened to it?
do u have more info about Cygnus's product? for example is it "free"? if so can it be easily emmbedded into the Linux kernel ?
I can imagine something like this could pic up momentum with developers if it is considered as a "feature" of the Linux kernel.
(and besides what OS would u want to choose for your home server ? With this good press Linux is getting everybody would be happy to run linux in the background)
Well I always knew that windows sux...
Ecos is free and Open Source. Ecos is highly configurable. It is a complete separate OS and thus cannot be embedded in the Linux kernel. It also has very different goals from Linux: it's small, it's RT, and it runs on different hardware from Linux. For details: http://www.cygnus.com/ecos/
Why embed an entirely separate Operating system into the Linux kernel?
no I didn't mean that. I ment are there drivers in the Linux kernel to communicate with the devices using the mensioned product ?
The module TOASTER caused a general protection fault at TOAST001413:AC34F0
Either wait for the element to cool down, or press CTRL-ALT-DEL to reboot your home......
ya know, it's ironic how mr gates is insisting of running everything of his operating system
.. they have some pretty cool shit
i do recall him building his house around the same ideas... i also recall the tremendous amounts of problems his NT servers caused =)
"bill gates" +home +problems
the net's just full of em'...
what about x10? x10.com
X10 has limitations but how much bandwidth is
needed for turning on a coffee maker?
Perhaps the X10 "standard" could be improved on. Larry Wall has already written some perl scripts to control his house (really).
www.x10.org exists but mostly contains links to smarthome.com
Sorry, but I see no need for anything connected to my lamps unless they are gonna grow legs and follow me around only when needed.
jini and ecos have already been mentioned, lonworks (http://www.echelon.com/) seems to do something similar. it's based on custom chips called "neuron chips". anybody competent dare to compare these three? which one should win?
So if IT Companies get into home appliances, does this mean that everything, lamps included will be beige and boxy. I can't think of a duller world
for the hackers!
i'm thinking could M$ be werking for the illuminati? cause if i get all my consumer appliances netwerked to the internet they would have a easyer time watching me... like in 1984...
Some one explain to me again why my toaster over needs to be hooked up to the internet? That is,
what's in it for me?
Thanks,
mtngrown
Wouldn't you rather, after you've just woken up in the morning, like to walk into the kitchen, and have, let's say, the the lights start out as dim, so they don't hurt your eyes--then gradually increase in brightness, to a pre-defined luminosity? Maybe the oven started pre-heating 20 minutes ago, because you like having fresh cinnamon buns. By the way, my microwave has a 'one minute' button...push it once, and the micro starts, and cooks for 1 min at the max power setting. Also, it will 'ding' (not beep) to remind me if I don't take the food out after a few mins.
It's not a matter of just saying your appliances are 'smart'...it's how well they succeed in making your life easier. The Europeans have a much better grasp of this 'form follows function' mantra. So many things in Europe, you approach and think..."my, that's clever!". A coffee maker doesn't have to have a 486 with WinCE to make it smart. But if it takes processing power to brew a perfect cup of joe, then I'm all for it.
They are trying to "invent" pre-existing technology and push it on an unsupecting crowd of computer illiterates (that's how they made all their money in the first place). Windows is bad enough - they have a strangle-hold with that Lemon. Now they have MSN (God help you if you try to set up another ISP without knowing what you are doing), Web TV (does the term Screen door on a Submarine ring a bell? Additionally, if you try to set up a non-MSN ISP, you still have to pay an additionaly $10 a month to M$ as well as the regular ISP fees), and now Home Networks!?!?!? It seems that Microsoft is exposing its true purpose to those with eyes to see - extort money you from any way they can. Soon you'll see Microsoft selling internet ready toilets! At least it has clear lines to be cut up if it goes down the path AT&T went years ago - Long Live the DOJ!
Mike
It's funny to watch the responses of slashdot.org
readers to anything that deals with Microsoft:
"MICRO$OFT SUX!", "WINBLOW$ SUX!", "DONT USE IT!"
If this would have been any other company, the
response would have been "WOO! Cool, this rocks!",
"I can't wait to have my microwave oven run
Linux!" or "This is the kind of thing I've always
dreamed about! Go Linus|SUN|SGI|IBM|whatever!".
But no.. it's Microsoft so it "sux"..
hell I am faithfull slashdot reader but now that MS bashing is REALLY getting on my nerves. I mean if you guys have nothing else to do than spit at mr Gates and the MS gang, get a fucking life.
I read slashdot for the unix* news about software and for sci news. Spare me those MS whinnings for god's freaking sake. I use Linux and Window and I'm not ashamed of telling it. I use whatever technology fits my need, period. Spending hours compiling and debugging and fixing someone's stupid fucked up code doesn't interest me while I can have the software working out of the box -- that's the coder's job, not mine.
Whatever. I just hope that this childish MS rock throwin will stop cause it's getting extremely lame. Show the advantages of Linux instead of showing the disadvantages of Windows.
'black
Let's hope what they mean is something more than TCP/IP. Given MS track record on security problem, it might be better off if they use their own network protocol, something NetBUIE. This way, hopefully, it will be harder to be hacked, but mind you, you might not be able to get more than 200 something devices running simultanousely.
Given the Holloween report, I think it is very clear that it really doesn't matter what they start with. The protocol that they use will change gradually and become close and proprietary. Soon enough, every single electronic device price will jump up by $20 for a MS Home network compatible logo. Crash more oven or not, what for? Neither do I want to run 50 NTs at home.
Hopefully, big name like Sony, GE, and so on, will not buy in the technology. But hard to say, MS might give them a spot on their startup page (desktop and web) in exchange for the support. (I smell monopoly.)
This is actually excellent timing for MS to be moving forward with this initiative. As I understand it, the various utility companies operate under an umbrella from antitrust law which recognizes the necessity of the utility for everyone. If MS can position itself to become such a utility, suddenly antitrust accusations against it would start hitting a brick wall. MS shifts its focus to the home-network market and makes the bundle there while Linux swoops into the desktop/server arena -- who cares? The mainstream American public isn't going to want to pick and choose components, they'll want a single integrated home network, which in this world would be produced by Microsoft, which then no longer has to worry about antitrust litigation.
All flames aside, I'd rather see Jini become the dominant home-networking standard. It's open, it's compact, and despite what anyone else thinks about Sun, they do publish the specifications to their stuff. The open source community isn't in a position to swing into production of a home-networking standard (software and hardware), but Sun and its allies are.
I sent in a submission about this story over 2 days ago and it never got posted. I've sent in many submissions, over the past 6 months, that mysteriously appear days later under someone else's name. Has anyone else had this happen to them? It's not like I'm going to stop reading /. if my submissions aren't posted, but it seems as if I'm being deliberately ignored.
Because, MS says it very clearly that they want market share and that imply they don't care about the user. Because, MS never gives credit (maybe in some rare occassion) to the original ideas. Because, they admited it publicly their strategies is to decommonditize everything in order to own the market. Now, how good is a company think only market share and money?
/. readers always response to MS post like this, sometimes, we choose to ignore them; I do admit we seldom (or never at all) celebrate any news from MS, however, is it possible that there is nothing to be cherished for? Besides, we do have a lot of bad comments (and along with some good one) on Apple, SGI, IBM, Corel and SUN/Java.
I didn't say IBM/Sun/Oracle is bad. But, they publicly admited that their target is to combat SUN's Jini. If it is not Jini, they wouldn't come up with the idea.
Okay, so what the purpose of the Bill Lab.? Follow everyone in the shadow, then jump out and kill everyone when they win (or look like going to) a lottery?
Last but not least, this is not the first time I saw this kind of post. It would be totally unfair that you said
first off all, 'frig'? :) i think you mean 'fridge'
also, i don't think even [insert random hated company] would be stupid enough to give appliance an internet IP address. there's no reason for your blender in florida to another blender in hong kong. what they're probably doing is setting up a network isolated entirely within your household. i suppose they could all be connected to a router of some sort through ip masquerading...you know, so if you're at someone's house across town and think "I FORGOT TO TURN OFF THE OVEN!" then you could do it remotely or whatever
but i think the real idea behind it is for appliances to operate with each other entirely within their own network
I hate to break this to Mickeysoft, but my toaster and lamps are already plug and play. Plug it into the wall, flip the switch, and magically the light bulb illuminates the room! No need for IP addresses or network cabling or a central server. The LAST thing I want is for my TV or a lamp to not work because I'm spending the afternoon reinstalling Windoze after it crashed.
Did you post it as anonymous coward?
"Hopefully these will be actual generic internet protocols"
If anything, M$ past actions would make me think they'd do the exact opposite of this. The "standards" would be "open" like "Win32" is open. Need more info, subscribe to the M$ developer network - Oh, and don't forget your annual internet/appliance/Win2000 usage fee - according to our records (which ARE the only ones that matter) you haven't paid your M$ usage fees yet this year - MC/VISA/AMEX or Money order please.
Microsoft owns (a good part) of a company that has a technology called HomeRun. It is an ethernet adapter with a phone connector that can be plugged into your phone system and runs in your house on the phone wires. No hubs, just plug into any jack and away you go at 1Mb or apperently 10Mb soon.
It's basically ADSL but only works within 500 ft.
So there is still plenty of room for microsoft to embrace and extend our favorite protocols.
We keep our creamer in the frig!
Why would I want to leave a piece of bread out all night?
More directly (not that MS business practices are shining examples of business ethics), Microsoft's tradition has been "marketing first, product quality second" -- this should be obvious to even the most jaded reader. Whether or not you believe Microsoft is the One True Innovator of computer products, you must confess that their bug-fixing has always trailed behind their shipping dates.
Now consider the future, a world where almost all home appliances are regulated by a Microsoft product. You can make backups of important data for when your computer crashes. You cannot, for example, make backups of your milk, eggs, and frozen pizza, for when the refrigerator goes South during the night and spoils your food. This is the sort of thing many readers envision, I'm sure. It may be less dramatic than that. But it is certainly frightening nonetheless, especially when you consider supposedly unrelated stories (such as "Microsoft mulls Windows tax" and a statement that the only reason they don't do it is because they don't have the infrastructure in place to collect the fees yet).
Yeah ok great. I agree. Still that kind of comment doesn't belong here from my point of view.
Go post it to www.anti-microsoft.com and I'll stop getting on the back of people like you.
Slashdot doesn't deserve lame OS flames like that.
The only use I can think of for networking household appliances is to use NTP to automatically reset clocks after a power outage...
Microsoft Vacuum Cleaner 01
In computers, crashes and such can be blamed on the fact that computers are so complex that its hard to make them perfect. With appliances this would be different. The complexity of a toaster is next to nil, and people would not buy products with computers in them if they did not work as well as the former ones. Microsoft knows this and would be forced to make decent products in order to get away with this. This is just my opinion, feel free to flame me for not making fun of Microsoft.
Its amazing slashdotters continually bash Microsoft because they copy other companies' ideas, when they use an OS that is a RIP-OFF of a OS initially designed in the 1960's!!!
Have you noticed that the GNU/Open Source folks never come up with new ideas, but just make open source copies of other peoples' ideas?
Gimme a break Willis.
sorry, I wasn't around in the 70's but I did remember seeing when I was little (in the 80's), so...
The point is, if you really hate MS for legit reasons, as some of you do, then you need to be a little more reasoned about it. Otherwise you discredit those who actually raise valid points about the darker side of MS. To anyone who habitually flames MS for anything and everything without even thinking about it, as a knee-jerk reaction, you have to realize that any valid points you may actually make about them from time to time get lost in the noise.
A lot of you (most of you (almost all of you)) sound little better than the militia guys out in the woods screaming about black helicopters and how the UN is going to take away your guns. When random hate-speak is your knee-jerk reaction to anything MS-related, people immediately dismiss your views, thinking something like, "Oh, he's just a {stupid teenager, MS-basher, creep, weirdo, /. reader, etc.}". There are very real reasons to keep an eye on MS, and you end up discrediting not only yourself, but the grown-up people who have real, legit problems with MS, who might actually be in a position to do something about it. If you really, really, really *hate* MS with a passion, the best thing you can do is grow up and learn to express yourself a little better.
No one with so much as a single functioning neuron considers /. to be anything more than a snarling, drooling pile of teenage flamefests, and folks like you (this isn't directed at everyone, but you know who you are!) are in a large part responsible for it. Unfortunately, /. appears to be the most visible manifestation of the free software community to folks on "the outside" (journalists, etc.), so perhaps this is something someone here ought to at least worry about a little.
You are correct. Jini is a distributed model that allows any device to download the network-enabled controls of another device that makes them available. So, your PalmPilot could control your house lights, if they were available.
M$, in contrast, seems to be placing the control capability only in Windows2000 as a means to get you to upgrade or buy into their OS.
that's not based on speculation, that's based on current Microsoft practices. So it's not speculation when you extrapolate a predicted course of action based on current data? %)
The basic idea for this stuff has been floating around at least since the early 1950s. I'd be willing to bet that looking at old World's Fair exhibits would turn up something similar pretty quickly.
Of course, as has been pointed out, X10 has been a reality for years. I can remember lusting after the old BSR units to hook into my (gulp) Kaypro, not because being able to remotely control the lights (and program them) was particularly useful but because it was just cool. Then again, there was always the possibility of driving the dog nuts by programming the can opener to turn on at random intervals.
Smart Home just seems to be X10 with a few extra bells and whistles. The basic idea seems to be to program the thermostat to cool down or heat up the house sometime before you get home. Or dial ahead and have the spa up and running when you arrive, and the meat loaf you put in the microwave (better hope the 5 year old hasn't swapped it out for the hamster) done when you arrive. Do I need this? Don't be silly. I don't even *want* it, but I understand there are people out there who might. MS will not be the only choice in this market, if only because the same consumers who expect WinWhatEver to puke on a regular basis will not not tolerate that behavior from their hot water heaters.
The most interesting thing about the MS announcement to me was that it followed a similar one by Cisco a few days earlier. Praise Bill and pass the FUD?
yeeker
(who doesn't feel like looking for his password)
If that toaster connects to an NT server, does the toaster need a separate license?
I think my toaster (oven) works just fine. And to imagine it doesn't have a single chip in it.
Sure it doesn't multi-task like an oven can, but it is small, electrically efficient, and thus optimized for say: two or three chicken breasts, two slices of pizza, or even a toast based client.
And if you're well organized, you can put some buns on the top and they'll be warm by the time you're done processing the veggie burger inside.
Yes, I need this thing!
I hope someday I buy my lightbulbs from m$. Have a m$ technician come to my house and install it too! And teach me how to use my networked bulb.
On
Off
1
0
another step toward patenting binary
And then.....when you had to reinstall windows again cos it had crashed and eaten half your hard drive, you'd just have to spend hours setting everything the way it was before, but after the 3rd time, you'd get fed up with the fancy configs and just have it turn the lights on full from the start.
Sorry.
I hate MS as much as anyone, but MS research has
been working on this (and it's been on their pages)
for many years.
I know cause i have a friend who is part of the project
Good album.
I whole-heartedly agree. The other day, my father was asking me what kind of home-automation we could set up with some of the old computer lying around. We came to the conclusion that we didn't need anything like that.
By the way, are you talking about toaster ovens, or microwaves? I have both with dials. The buttoned beeper burnt out. Ah, gas-burning stoves and ovens.
Nope, just open and close all of the windows a few times. It's really not that bad. Unless you live in an apartment building. Or it's 40 below outside.
IBM'll getcha black Apple has a rainbow of flavors if you live in CandyLand.
Absolutely NOTHING!
You are incorrect, sir. It is home automation which I loathe. My computer should be more like an appliance, NOT the other way around.
No, that's for dilbert.com, silly.
Hmmmm...
"If a software company put not for mission-critical applications on all its products, would you buy something from it to run your furnace? Your water heater? Your cooking appliances? If you would, you better be ready to give a long explanation to the fire inspector. "
Funny... look at any EULA - you'll find very similar wordings.
It's not just Microsoft that has this.
Microsmurf
--
--
Just lurking, thanks!
I'm relatively certain he's referring to how one could pay $10 and use while still using MSN "premium" sites, etc.
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
The 80's ? I seem to recall getting my first unit in the mid 70's. It still works today....
Unlike products directed at supposedly "knowledgeable users", any appliance is going to be reviewed by different criteria than applied to PC's and software. Unreliability will be the kiss of death, hence, if this is the best that MS can produce with its partners it will be excluded and not forgiven for its flaws.
However, should they produce an acceptable product, which is not beyond the realm of possibility they may gain market share.
Until then perhaps we should await their offerings and ignore the hype from sources .
Just incase, I mistyped my password:
Herschel Cohen at hcohen2@home.com
At least we acknowledge our heritage, and build upon it.
This way we compete on quality, not just on being better-known.
Posted by oNZeNeMo:
I wish people weren't so obsessed with making things smarter. It's not that I have anything against my computer being more complicated. It just has to stop in the kitchen. I don't need a computer to turn on and off my lights. I don't need a computer to cook my breakfast. One used to be able to cook a burito in the microwave with but a single turn of a dial. Now, you have four keystrokes on this slimy keypad just to cook something for a minute. It also has the generic electronic feep that is grating to one's ears where the trusty old "analog" microwave just rang a real live bell. So now I have to put some cat5 drops in my kitchen so Microsoft can put their grubby hands in my food. No Thanks.
If I put my bread in the toaster the night before it will be all dried out by the time I get up to eat it. Or what happens if I want Captain Crunch? Then I stick dried out bread in the trash.
I don't care if Microsft, Sun, SGI, Apple or General Electric make it. I still think it is a stupid idea.
Newer VCRs get a time signal broadcasted by some networks, and Brookstone (most likely Sharper Image also) sells desk clocks that set themselves off of the GPS satellite signal. No network required.
Their homes will be nice and toasty-warm during the cold winters....as it burns down to the ground around them thanks to mircosoft technology. Want to bet the insurance rates go through the roof on these networked homes?
I tried PrintMaster Gold with the latest Wine but, it had Font problems. Would WABI be out of the questions? You could use all those 16bit applications that Windows were bragging about prior to Win95.
Plus there's the possibility that some 040 System 7 piece of Mac software could do. Although, I haven't had any luck with Executor myself.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
So,
For Microsoft the initiative is a key play to grab a large portion of the future consumer appliance market.
It means I'd have to buy Microsoft Personal Microwave Kit to be able to use my bathroom, and the toilet won't flush with message "Error performing flush: No error" and I'd have to order Microsoft Support Contract by $2000 a year to be able to adjust channels on my TV?
And how the heck my vacuum cleaner is supposed to "syncronize" with my VCR?
I only hope it will be so expensive that no large electronics maker will choose to build this abomination in it's appliances.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Actually, the first company to instroduce an idea like this one was called Lonewolf Systems. They had a chip that could go in any applicance(primary audio.video gear, but also other appliances). The chip included a fibre port. Nasically, every appliance was controlled by a central compuer on the network. It allowed a VCR or LD player in the living room to play on a TV in the bedroom because the central computer was actually routing the siganls to appropriate sources. It was a mondo cool system, but prohibitvely expensive in the early 90's as it REQUIRED a fiber optic network ...
...
I wonder if the MS proposal will do the same kinda thing? I highly doubt it, but who knows
Isn't this what the goal of Genie, or Jeni, or Jenie, or whatever that is SUN is doing is?
Not that MicroSoft might not ship it first, but I do think they weren't the first to announce that they came up with the idea for something like this.
Here is a comparison from my experience:
LonWorks is interesting, it consists of these
single chip network nodes for ~$5.
The neuron chip is ~$3-4 and there is an
inductor for ~$2 to provide isolation.
The media is a single twisted pair.
Each device is really simple and you need
a central controller to 'administer' the
net. But they tend to get a hefty profit
off that controller portion.
Lonworks is good for well-defined dedicated
tasks. Everyone I know who's tried to do
anything that requires flexibility has
really gotten in to trouble. LonWorks
is best in factory control systems that
do the same thing for 20 to 50 years.
Industrial Automation is a bad space to
play in since factories are so conservative.
Once they are committed to using a vendor,
they tend to stay with it. Lonworks has
serious headaches for the developer.
Using Raw ethernet is not much more expensive
than lonworks, especially when you consider
that cabling costs tend to dwarf both lonworks
and Ethernet components. To make this vision
work requires new wireless protocols.
Jini is an interesting concept. There
are many people at the Media Lab who
have been pushing similar ideas.
They have a whole group dedicated to
Things That Think, and putting intelligence
and networking hidden into everyday devices,
so you can get the benefits without even
knowing that it is there.
This has long-term credibility, but everybody
talks about it while few companies actually
produce. Sun has some incredible concepts
with Jini, simplifying the whole arena of
making devices talk to each other.
This has *long term credibility* since no-one
else is addressing the issue of how to make
protocol design easier for our limited
human brains.
The MIT Media Lab has a special group focusing
on Personal Infromation Architectures
http://www.media.mit.edu/pia
attempting to address these same issues
and solve them. The great thing is, real-world
software can be developed in a research setting.
Real-world hardware requires a company to sell it.
In this space the software is what's hard, and
that makes PIA's work very exciting.
Ecos is just an operating system for embedded
devices. Most people still just write their
own OS from scratch when they need an embedded
OS. The OS starts out as a superloop and
functionality gets added as people need more
features. Finally somebody realizes it needs
to sit on a network and that gets added too.
What you end up with is a *minimal* solution
but at huge development expense. Other
embedded OSes are hard to cut up because
one can't share the cut-ups with others.
Everybody has to re-invent OS partitioning.
Ecos means anybody can strip the OS down to the
bone and share that, leading to a community of
minimal OS implementations tuned for narrow
applications. This isn't revolutionary either
though since a free embedded OS has been available
for some time,known as RTEMS.
At one point RTEMS was selected as the core
OS for http://www.jos.org , trying to build a
free java-based operating system. I'm not sure
if they are still using RTEMS or have developed
a new custom kernel.
The department of Computer Sciences at the University of Wisconsin has had a networked coke machine for several years. It was run by the student chapter of the ACM; one had to establish an account first by depositing a sum of money. After that, one could telnet to coke, login, and be greeted with a menu, from which one could purchase a coke.
--Gus
All those bulked-up 'enterprise servers' running
NT in Mongolian Clusters, just to do what a 486
running Linux or FreeBSD could do in their sleep.
I'd call the appliances "Expensive Space Heaters"
So will you embrace and extend this?
Life is complete only for brief intervals in between toys or projects -- John Dalton
hany
hany
answer: the best of OSes which are not controled by single company, person, government and/or small intrerest group, coalition, ...
hany
hany
btw, such a people are perfect example of impotent criticism
hany
X10 is not only still around but is growing in popularity rapidly. The hardware is out in 220V versions nowadays so we're happy in Europe too, and it's quite inexpensive, and it's supported on Unix/Linux/BSD platforms well. The data throughput is very very low so you wouldn't want to layer X11 on it, but for its intended purpose it does the job just fine.
I currently run a pile of X10 gear controlling various power loads at home, with control coming from my Linux systems, standalone switches, standalone timers, and from the radio remote. And of course it's integrated into the net, since the controlling systems are accessible through IP via a couple of firewalls and gateways.
A new system is needed though, one that is quite a bit faster and that has a defined data payload capability and forward error correction built in. I sure hope that someone comes up with such a system before the nightmare of a Microsoft solution rears its head. That would be terrible, not only for the reasons expressed by others but also because the "standard" would be a continually moving target.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
"I'm sorry. Windows NT Kitchen Edition could not authenticate client: toaster. Illegal password specified. Please reboot toaster and try again."
"General Protection Fault in Module: BreadCrumb001XB03XPF34. Abort, Retry, Fail?"
Or worse, yet, run Solaris and have to start a Java-based toast client that takes 10 minutes to load...
~Dan
"World domination, of course. And scantily clad females. Who cares if it's twenty below?"-Linus Torvalds wizard@twcny.
I can't seem to find any of those comments.....
I did see a lot refering to monopolizations and incompatabilities, which is why many have bad feelings towards M$.
Who is the master of foxhounds, and who says the hunt has begun? -Pink Floyd
I'd wager most people here dislike Microsoft for a variety of reasons. And much of the hate directed at Microsoft is well deserved. With that said, MY suggestion is if you don't like this then visit www.microsoft.com and be happy as most of the Microsoft bashing that does occur here is the plain and simple truth.
Cheers
Ron
You have been assimilated.
Insert Microsof Bread(R) and reboot
I think you're wrong about number 3. Every "common user" I've encountered has used Windows out of ignorance of alternatives, or because they know that Microsoft is the dominating actor in the market and "a sure bet", but they still love complaining about the instability of Windows.
Amen. I gave a computer to my folks last summer, and they're both completely computer-illiterate. Six months later, they're already complaining about it crashing. Same thing with my sister - she works in an office and has just gotten a PC at home, and can't stop complaining about how lame Windows is and how Word is a piece of crap compared to Wordperfect. These are far from power-users, and I think their experiences would tend to lead them away from buying MS products.
P.S. I didn't give my parents Linux, because I couldn't find an equivalent to Broderbund's Print Shop, which they wanted to be able to use. Anyone know of a good, simple, "user friendly" Linux program of this nature? I could easily switch them over if I could find one...
It's all done in a few thousand lines of publicly available Java source code.
It uses TCP/IP.
The protocol that it uses on top of TCP/IP is clearly specified rather than "de-commoditized".
We're allowed to modify the source.
It works.
-- Out of cheese error! Redo from start.
Here's something to note:
If a software company put not for mission-critical applications on all its products, would you buy something from it to run your furnace? Your water heater? Your cooking appliances? If you would, you better be ready to give a long explanation to the fire inspector.
No problem, sir! It's automatically set to power down if the smoke detector goes off! And if it fails to do it, I can reinstall!
And without the heavy appliances, would you really
need a smart toaster?
Microsoft's source is assembler-diddled spaghetti. Their smart houses will never make it to market.
Yeah, linux copies ideas from other systems, but the copying is acknowledged, unlike M$'s tendency to attempt to decieve the consumer, coming off as if all of their "ideas" are original. Also, M$ intends to make money off of the practice of copying other's ideas; linux does not do this. Finally, alot of things linux gets from other systems, it improves upon, while M$ tends to turn good ideas into technological nightmares.
Methinks your comparison is not quite equvalent.
meej
marijane
--
marijane
For a short form abstract of a paper presented at ICCE '98 click click here ...
If people are really interested I'll dig up the original paper and put it on the Web somewhere; otherwise E-Mail me here ...
It's fairly easy to envision: MS and its allies in this venture write a proprietary extension of one of the standard protocols (Telnet? HTTP? SNMP?) and keep the specs to themselves. No-one else can make devices which communicate with their control programs, or make programs which communicate with their devices, because the standard's secret. This gouges other competitors out of the market because the blind consumer (who naively thinks that 'standardisation is a good thing') won't buy a product which isn't compatible.
Interesting Point: As we've seen with the ICQ chat protocol, people have been clever enough to packet-sniff the protocol and produce an open specification. Decoding people's proprietary programs is difficult, esp. when they start getting tricky, but there's little you can do about packet-sniffers, except maybe encryption. And then you'd be exporting munitions under the good ol' US of A's mindless export laws.
Lesson Number One: Never trust the monopoly.
--Reason is a tool. Try to remember where you left it.--
Oh, and you can still buy those dial microwaves.
And the 'cool as hell' part of this is when you can get a barcode scanner on the microwave that reads the UPC code and get cooking time off the internet, so you don't press anything....
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Everyone remember that virus that hit FlashBIOS? Right? Well now imagine one that invades your TV and makes all channels map to a certain channel..... say CSPAN or Lifetime.
I want to be the first person to have rooted someone's coffeemaker and changed their decaf to mocha.
I hope this thing doesn't use NT style authentication. (I didn't bother to read the spec.)
Ex Machina "From the Machine"
xm@GeekMafia.dynip.com [http://GeekMafia.dynip.com/]
This is typical for MicroSloth... Now we can expect development to halt for Jini because MS has decided to rule this market as well.
How long will it be before Bill gates tries to convince us that this functionality needs to be part of the operating system.
I can hardly wait until I can't go out and buy a fscking desk lamp without having to pay tribute to Bill Gates. Next thing, they'll claim a patent on photons.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
i think the reason everyone have seperate appliances is the simple fact that they do one thing (usually) and one thing only. that's why my home doesn't crash every few days. plus, m$'s approach to everything is propreitary, bloated code. jini is much more elegant and if i am gonna have a networked coffe maker that tells me while i'm in the shower that the coffe is done, i'd rather it use jini.
It say's there's two comments on this page but
I only see one. I've got my threshold set low enough that I ought to be seeing all the posts. What's going on?
I was just wondering. There is a difference between how far we can push technology to do things and whether we should do it. OK. So we can get our lamp to talk to the microwave but is it going to server a useful purpose ? Are we adopting technology that we really need or are we just becoming a slave to it ?
- Doodhwala
OK, Microsoft is trying to invent a market... crashing home appliances, it's gotta try to keep those shareholders happy by going for enourmous growth rates.
About the only way I rekcon they could succeed is by bundling a DNA probe in your toaster (for our safety of course) then doing a licensing deal with Monsanto so that the toaster GPFs on anything but Monsanto wheat bread. Or more importantly, the fridge complains of a virus and blue screens if you've got things in there without Monsanto genetic copyright signals.
Kind of off-topic, but meanwhile, I think I figured out how Microscoft might be planning to lock in NT. Even if they don't de-commoditize the internet, they still have a monopoly on Office. And Office 2000 hype is already coming out.
Part of Office is COM/DCOM stuff, which means bits of the app don't get installed on your drive until you click particular menus. And I reckon the only way this will work is if you have a DCOM server running on NT.
So who cares if samba runs rings around NT? Corporates are going to want Office 2000 because MS have lock-in on the deliberate file format mess that is Word. And if Office 2000's fancy new features depend on an NT server, maybe Linux won't get a look in.
Just something to watch out for I reckon.
Wouldn't it be great to come downstairs in the morning and found out that hackers have burnt your toast AGAIN? Never shoulda got that TCP/IP enabled toaster...
Home networking is cool, but I'd prefer an open-source open-standard solution. If I can't get the thermostat to work exactly how I want it to, there shouldn't be any problem with me popping open Emacs (or vi for some of you) and editing a few things here and there.
I'll be first in line for this stuff, but I'll be damned if I pay $98 bucks to upgrade my blender, my stove and my Home Fusion Recycling Unit(tm) from M$ Home Kitchen 2001 to M$ Home Kitchen 2003.
:)
æeee!
Actually I think using NAT or ipmasq or whatever else you want to call it is the exact way to go. We really don't need to polute the planet with an endless ammount of ip addresses. Also, NAT provides additional security. I don't want the outside world being able to access my appliances. What if someone who really hates me decides to hack my water heater and set the hot water temperature to 500degrees C. Next time I step into the shower it would most likely result in my death. Or do you want people being able to teardrop your fridge so all of your food spoils? I do think some kind of outside access is desireable, ie turning off an appliance you left on, however that could be done automatically. (One of my friend's house is already setup basically like this. Accept he designed the system around a comodore 64, and later upgraded to a 386. All of the space heaters in the house are set to turn off every hour on the hour so you can never forget to turn it off.) I really don't think direct access to everything in your house should be granted to the world, however.
-matt
And there is a good reason for this. Microsoft has a history of unfair business practices and abuse of its monopoly. Microsoft also is well known for making proprietary standards to keep other companies out, and bastardizing existing standards to keep other companies out. With Linux this situation cannot occur. If someone writes a home automation protocol for Linux but refuses to document it the solution is simple. Read the source and document it yourself. If you feel the need to extend said protocol, do it, the source is there for you to modify/break in anyway you want. If you (and others) feel that your changes are good, they become part of the standard. It's a very nice system. With Microsoft you have to wait for them to improve the protocol, for them to document the protocol, for them to charge you $100 for the privlage of using their protocol, for them to charge you for protocol 2000 to fix the bugs in protocol 98. Microsoft deserves our hate. The day Microsoft starts caring about the customer, instead of soley about $$$ is the day that we should reconsider our position of hate towards Microsoft. Until then, Microsoft will be nothing more than a ruthless company that will stop at nothing to shove its broken products and protocols down the throats of consumers. Viva Linux.
-matt
Man.. Just think about how much this going to cost a person down the road.
Toaster2000 Single User - $250
Toaster2000 User Upgrade - $99
Toaster2000 4 User License - $999
Whoo. Better be single!
Cross
I don't need to have a bug in computer that lets people see what appliances are turned on over the Internet... just what I need...some robber can just check to see if I'm home by watching what appliances are turned on.
My TV can crash. When it receives certain signals it will crash. Even the power button won't work. I have to UNPLUG it, let it wait 15 min for the batteries to drain, and then plug it in again.
:-( I have to unplug it, wait 15 min, etc. every time! That's when I stopped watching TV and started reading /.
Actually, about three months ago, it got worse. Now it boots up and works fine except when I shut it off, it won't come back on.
- Amit
Having a central computer control appliances, especially when running an Microsoft OS, is prone to frequent crashing and annoyances.
Putting small cheap embedded controllers in all appliances and linking them with easy serial links to a hub is the way to go. You could go modular and have control pannels, or hook up a computer. However, since the computer or control panel doesn't actually control the devices (just sends commands), NOTHING CAN CRASH!
And best of all, this costs a heck of a lot less than the MS solution to implement, since most appliances already have about 75% of the electronics backbone to do this.
Well, sending info via the power line need NOT be low bandwidth and prone to error, so that's not really a good reason.
Microsoft ScanToast has discovered lost crumbs on your toast!
This could be a result of your Microsoft Toaster being improperally shutdown.
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