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MS Responds to Rebate Day
ensor sent us a link to a ZD article about
Microsoft's Response
to all the recent Windows Refund Hoopla.
It's not taking is seriously. They consider it a PR stunt.
Update: 01/22 02:14 by S : Apparently
Microsoft has removed the refund clause from the EULA for
Windows 98... which sounds like I can't use Win98 if I don't
agree to its EULA, but I must still pay for it if I want a particular
notebook? Anybody know what the new EULA is?
LWN is claiming the clause removal in Win98 is untrue, any Australian
readers care to comment? Update: 01/22 06:42 by S :
Dell will not pay a refund because their systems are only
quality assured with Windows. Seems like the perfect loop-hole:
it is not Microsoft that is requiring Windows on the computer,
but the hardware manufacturers... but the tactic could back-fire,
since it casts doubts on the PC-compatability of their hardware.
I bought my PC from TC Computers and I was given the option of having Win95 installed (for $95) which I declined. Go Go Gadget Linux!
Let's see what happens on Feb. 15.
if i had one, i would. however, it's hard to
return something that doesn't even run on
your machine. god, i love having a mac.
That was a stupid thing of them to say, and I'm glad they said it. It makes for those lovely "before and after" situations.
It's not as if Microsoft would actually come out and say "oh fuck, I sure hope they don't ask for a Windows refund because the vendors won't be able to give it to them! Heh heh, exclusive contracts rock!"
I only wish I bought pre-built PCs. Ho hum, I'm thinking of getting a new one soon. Perhaps I can join in after all.
--Michael Bacarella
All of the windows/microsoft producs that I use (except a few games) are all pirated. You expect me to pay for that shite? I think not.
If somebody complains to me about having to buy windows because they bought a dell, or a compaq, then they shouldn't have. There are plenty of vendors who'll ship you a machine with no OS on it. Laptops are another story. I'll be getting one on friday, and unfortunately for some reason I've decided to keep windows on it for a little while, so I guess I don't get my refund.
I have never bought a new PC. The last new computer I bought was an Apple II clone (that should tell you how long ago it was -- about 1984 or 1985 I think). I build my own Linux boxes from parts or buy used machines. Either way I have never gotten MS-Windoze licenses or media with any of them (I've got at least 12 x86 machines around my house, all running Linux).
If I ever do buy a new PC and am not given a choice of operating systems (which would be a major turn-off), I will certainly return the unused M$ products to Microslop.
Funny, I never got Windows 98 with my new motherboard. How will I ever know what I'm missing...
FWIW, six motherboards, two cases, four monitors, eight hard drives, two mice, one Toshiba floppy drive, and one NorthGate keyboard in the last eight years, and the only non-Linux I ever paid for was DR-DOS. Eat that, Bill.
Then decent OEMs can take their place.
End the DOS tax! Finally!
I already used my copy of Win95 (to play games mostly) and it will be the last I ever buy. When I purchased my current machine I did request that all other MS software be removed from my purchase. So I did save some money.
:)
GNU/Linux forever
I've never paid for a Microsoft product. I even ordered a couple free copies of MSIE on CD so I could turn them around, paint them and hang them on my walls. Microsoft is negative 40 cents on me. :)
// Sludge
As I had to run Win95 for about a year and a half at school before Linux-ATM became stable, M$ would say that I accepted the EULA, and therefore inelligible to return the software. (of course I also had a Pirated copy of NT server running at the time as well)
.signature file:
However I am now 100% Microsoft free (for about a year and a half)
as it sez in my
deepthought (my 'puter) runs Linux; 100% Microsoft free, 100% of the time.
I know the OEMs are stuck in the middle here, but if one person isn't allowed to return their software, their EULA is now void and that IS Microsofts problem. EULA being void, I now own that piece of software (not just leased / shrinkwrapped). And I will feel free to reverse engineer, modify, fold spindle and mutilate, and give it away to all my friends... all because Microsoft doesn't keep up their end of the bargains... The GUARANTEE that I can return their software to the vendor for a refund IF I don't agree to the EULA. And I did pay for it afterall.
proud to be 100% windows free
When I bought my PC from a local computer shop, I told them that I didn't want any OS. They said "no problem" and didn't charge me for one. When I got it home, I was surprised to find that Win95 was already installed on the hard drive. Of course, a little fdisk fixed that. :)
Haven't got a License to Windows since 3.1 days and I used that enough to qualify as accepting the agreement. Pity, I'd really like to return one...
so I don't have anything to return. Oh well.
(Just to return it)
I would also return it but I beta tested it, so I got a 10 user license for free...I couldn't give away the 10 user license if I wanted to! It's nice for it's ease of use, but not for it's lack of originality, and stability. Sending it back would be a nice message to MS telling them to re-write the thing...what ever happened to MS-UNIX anyway?
All those who work with PC/desktop support now have a great way to make extra cash - not entirely legally though.
Just return all those unopened Windows licenses that normally get thrown out!
Shortly after burning a copy on my CDR, I plan to go out and buy another spool or two of CDRs to assist my firends in getting their refunds as well.
Of cause the CDROM copy that I return will have a huge scratch across the working side and the Holo-serial number stickie certificite thingie will be hopelessly crumpled (well... at miniumum, noticably worn).
I LOVE corporate America... not only does the RIAA pay for my CD-R and other toys, but it looks like Bill's going to start chipping in to my fund as well.
Go ahead... tax my CDR disks! There's no way that you could make the tax pay for the impact that I will produce!
I LOVE government as well... just differently.
> Jensen's instructions tell alternative OS users they need to make
:-)
e ss why I don't have a slashdot account...
> sure to load their alternative operating systems before
> turning on their new PCs in order to insure
> they are applicable for a refund.
Yes , and if you already have Linux installed,
make sure to login BEFORE you turn it on
-------------------------------------------
Gu
Doesn't this really only apply to Notebooks. If you buy a desktop, there's no reason to buy windoze. (unless you buy some brand name trash)
Slashdot is infested with a bunch of big-talking, gutless Windows users. How about this: quit whining about Microsoft or stop using the crap? The only people who can complain are the tax victims who never wanted it anyway or the ones who are forced to use it.
Although I believe Linux has an incredible amount of potential, it still doesn't have the software base that Windows has.
Microsoft isn't just an evil giant that appeared out of nowhere. At one time, back in the 70's and 80's, they were nothing more than another small start-up. Since then, using superior business tactics, and at times good software, they have worked their way to where they are now. In a capitalist economy, which is what our government likes to believe the U.S. economy is, there is nothing wrong with Microsoft.
The geeks who are unfamiliar with business tend to have a hatred toward Microsoft simply because the company has had an enormous impact on 'their industry'. The immature few also choose to insult the company, which does nothing but make open source look bad.
why would I want to return windows since it is superior to linux? windows is so much more user friendly
How many requests for refunds for not using Windows would M$ need to prove that there are other succesfully competiting OS's?
Since I've never purchased a Microsoft product (i use linux only at home), and i've never purchased an Intel product (i use at home a AMD K6-233 processor), is it safe to say I am an Wintel virgin ?
Cep
Yes of course its a PR stunt but M$ are clearly embarrassed at how quick it is catching on, otherwise they wouldnt of commented. They originally had a count of the number of people who had replied for a refund but it looks like its been taken off. I say keep it on! it will only embarrass M$.
ahahaha
-kojak
If you've been running (mostly) non-Windows OSses for years anyway, then you've probably had the sense not to buy complete prepackaged systems - both to save money and to get hardware that ALL works with the non-Windows environment of your choice. So I find myself in the suddenly, unexpectedly embarassing posibiot of not ever having paid the "Microsoft tax" and hence having nothing eligible for return.
Of course, you have to know at least a little bit about what you're doing to avoid the tax this way (he said, suddenly imagining the result of considerable effort, over the years, being misrepresented as "proof" that MS doesn't really wag the PC industry with a heavy hand). It's not an option for most PC users.
If I knew it would get THAT far, I'd had bought a computer instead of just the parts. Then I could join the fun ;-) . I bought it in parts ONLY to avoid Micro-sh*t in my box...
(Well, actually it's faster since I configured it by myself)
my 'doze is a pirated copy. I mean all of them.
The American Mafia isn't just an evil giant that appeared out of nowhere. At one time, back in the 1890's and 1900's, they were nothing more than another small immigrant mob. Since then, using superior business tactics, and at times good sex workers, they have worked their way to where they are now. In a capitalist economy, which is what our government likes to believe the U.S. economy is, there is nothing wrong with the Mafia.
The moralists who are unfamiliar with business tend to have a hatred toward the Mafia simply because the company has had an enormous impact on
'their society'. The immature few also choose to insult the family, which does nothing but make law and order look bad.
I'm gonna ask if I can return the certificate along with the disks on which I copied it (the computer came with Win95 in the HDD, and didn't come with other distribution media). Mind you, the disks died some time ago... and no, no bulk eraser was involved in the process. :o)
Can't return a copy if you've never paid for one!
-andy (built my PC from parts)
4According to Sibley, $65 is the royalty that Microsoft most commonly charges computer manufacturers for copies of Windows 95 installed on new
personal computers; this excludes up to about $20 in discounts that computer manufacturers can earn "for meeting all of the conditions specified
in Microsoft's Market Development Agreement" (p. 6).
I wonder why everybody still gets high on Windows discussion. It's a pretty bad OS, and everybody except for some weeflerunners who don't have any clue anyway.
I say if you don't like it, don't use it, but the only people to complain to then if you can't run your Apop of Choice or your New And Great Game are the authors of the software. But don't come whining about bad Microsoft OS to the rest of us.
I would LIKE TO return my copies of Windows. I have 3 of them now - what a waste.
They all say they are licensed for "THIS" computer, so I couldn't legally give them away.
Well, I could, but if the Microsoft-proxy group BSA investigates the license, I really gave away "pirated" software. Even though 99% of the parts from the old computers were recycled or trashed and there is no demonstratable "this" any longer.
"This DVD is only licensed for viewing in THIS video playback device. Resistance is futile."
Another couple of knee-slappers:
Well, since a recent survey showed that nearly sixty percent of Windows users would switch in a heartbeat if they thought they had a real choice, I should think not! There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of "high satisfaction" to emphasize.Also got a chuckle out of:
Well duh--the OEMs might take that opportunity to try re-negotiating those hideously restrictive legal instruments they are currently saddled with!Sheesh. And to think that at one point in the distant past I actually liked Microsoft!
--
ChipR without a cookie at the moment
I bought my system from a vendor at a trade show. I had the $95 option of declining Windows, which I did, but the drive in my machine STILL had it loaded. I just didn't get any disks. So, I left it on (I put a much bigger and faster drive in for Linux), and use my Windows side for games. Hoo-ray!
-Jared
jared@ccs.neu.edu
The place I work at gets computers from an unnamed company, which includes Windows CD's Licenses, and everything. Since we have a site license we just trash the CD's (and take them out before we leave). Think a mass return of 200 from one person would work?
Is the EULA a contract between Microsoft and the
customer or an OEM and the customer. This should
determine who is responsible for the refund.
(*News*) This just in...Due to the growing support for Microsoft that the Slashdot readership has been showing in the past several months, it has been decided to give the site a more appropriate name, "ZDNet2"!
Though posts are often disguised as anti-Microsoft complaints, it is clear that many posters who have a choice continue to stick with MS products. They post their opinions with pride, chiding Microsoft from behind their copies of MSIE.
When asked about this contradictory style, one poster noted that he "didn't want to intimidate those around him with too much free will or regard for freedom."
They didn't charge me the Microsoft tax. That's right. I got a computer with Linux and no Microsoft Tax. Sorry guys, I can't play this game.
Never heard of it.
There should have been another option:
I build my own machines, and therefore I am not forced to purchase Windows in the first place.
I may use it once every six months, but I sure did
not buy the software... : )
in dont think i will return a copy of windows because i have never actually *purchased* a copy, or a machine with a copy on it.
somehow MS operating systems just kinda show up on my HD.
I leaned hard on my vendor (a small local outfit) and persuaded them that I didn't need Windoze. However some months later I read in the newspaper that they (and several other small local vendors) had settled a suit with M$ where they were accused of pirating Windoze. Now, maybe they really did do that, but I think it's more likely that M$ simply noted that NumberOfSystems wasn't equal to CopiesOfWindowsSold, and nailed them purely on that basis. DoJ should check out how much of that sort of thing goes on.
I might need it if I ever want to get ASDL....
If a company - any company, that made consumer products of some sort - announced that it used Linux, or that it was trying to distance itself from MS, would you buy that company's products over an MS-supporting competitor?
"I use Tide Soap becuase Tide uses Linux!"
i don't need to return Windows because my machine came microsoft-free: its a mac. :-)
:-)
i've run my machines without ANY microsoft software on it for over 15 years, and never missed it. i run: photoshop, illustrator, framemaker, filemaker pro, netscape, soundedit16, MP3 Player, MAME, Opcode StudioVision, quark xpress, MM director, ArchiCAD, MiniCAD, various compilers / languages, BBedit (text editor), etc. -- no need for M$ in any of that. also my machine has been relatively crash-free and stable for all this time.
now with the option to boot LINUX or MacOS, i have choice of OS as well, and i don't ever have to even see that clunky buggy windows crap EVER. not even to delete its sorry code off my drive, or with dumb little bios expecting legacy M$ bits stuck in my ROMs! i'm thoroughly M$-clean through and through.
and to think some people can't even imagine what computing would be like without a M$ running it all!?!
viva la linux!
vive le choix!
Proud Macintosh user.... Never even had an opportunity to think about returning my copy of Windows.
usually wugmump, but i don't have my password
The Win98 EULA still has this in it:
..."
"...If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, do not install or use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT; you may, however, return it to your place of purchase for a full refund."
However, it also has *this*:
"Microsoft's and its suppliers' entire liability and your exclusive remedy shall be, at Microsoft's option, either (a) return of the price paid, if any, or
Note 'if any'.
I'll continue to use Windows only because the customer demands it & its applications. It's a pay check thing, not because MS produces good products. For my own use, I'll use Linux & its applications!
sohn: 'OEMs are completely free to ship any OS they choose'
translation: "the next time somebody calls you asking for linux, dont mention microsoft when you say 'no'"
sohn: 'OEMs will have to make their own decisions. They are 'adults.''
translation: "you better do what we want, or we'll treat you like you are a child"
sohn: 'how and when OEMs opt to refund customers if they can prove they never used copies of Windows that came preinstalled on their machines is up to each individual OEM'
translation: "tell the users no refund, because theres no way to prove it"
sohn: [anything sohn says]
translation: obey, or we'll cut your balls off.
read those articles about what microsoft does
with the software publishers association anti
piracy efforts in foreign countries.
in some countries the MS rep there is the same guy as the SPA guy.
if they catch you pirating lotus, they wont fine you if you promise
to switch your office over to microsoft.
you call this superior capitalism. i call it corruption
and antisocial. what used to be called "commie" is now held up as
a good example by warped big business supporters. life is so strange.
Actually I'll return a copy of NT Server 4.0. That's about 800 bones.
You haven't read the EULA, obviously. You _cant_ return it. By breaking the seal on the CD case, and installing windows, you automatically consent to the terms of the EULA.
If it was preinstalled, then booting up windows counts as your consent.
So the only people who could return windows would be the ones who never installed it..
In 20+ years of computing, I've never had a personal copy of any of their toy computer eye candy.*shrug*
They must be made to pay!
How can promoting *choice* over *monopoly* be a bad thing? Only in the twisted, psychotic mind of a wholly-owned Microsoft shill like Enderle.
I've never bought a copy of Windows.
In college I needed a free UNIX so that I could work on my UNIX-based projects (written at school on a Solaris-based Sparc machine) on my PC at home (a 486 with 4 megs of ram). Later on, Win95 came out. I briefly thought about trying it, but I didn't have any particular use for it and it certainly wouldn't run on my system anyway. Every system I've bought since then (and they've been quite a few) have been by either just buying all the parts from local PC shops and putting them together myself, or by ordering from the many great Linux VARs that have sprung up.
Why this guy bought his laptop from Toshiba is a bit of mystery to me - maybe there was no Linux VAR selling laptops in Aussie-land at the time. I know there's at least one Linux VAR there now, and probably more.
There's no reason for any of us to ever buy computers with Windows, or any other non-free OS, installed again.
The object of having a shrink-wrap license is to bind the person who uses the package into a contract. A contract may never be completely one-sided; if I signed a contract saying I would give my neighbor $1,000 a week for life, when he never gave me anything in return, that contract would be invalid. To my mind, this means Microsoft's licensing agreement is completely invalid. If there is no way to return the software for a refund, then Microsoft has no right to demand you not resell the package.
I'd like to suggest that Dell, and any other manufacturer that refuses to refund Windows licences, be notified by their customers that they can expect to lose a customer. Do it politely, but do it. I bought a box from Dell. I won't do it again, though, unless they change some policies. Here's the letter I sent them. Feel free to use it however you want, but for Christ's sake, if you send it to a manufacturer personalize it so it doesn't look like a damned form letter.
--------------
To whom it may concern,
I'm a recent college graduate, a current graduate student, and research
scientist. When doing the work for my first publication, I relied heavily
on my Dell PC, and it performed admirably. In fact, the choice between
running jobs on the workstation on my desk at work (a dual processor
Sun UltraSparc), or my Dell, was often difficult, as my home machine could
often equal or exceed the performance of the Sun, which, incidentally, had
cost my university over ten times as much as my Dell.
Unfortunately, I may not be able to purchase another machine from you, or
advise many of my family or friends, or even my department to do so. The
reason is not the quality of the hardware or the support. I would give
you an "A+" in both catagories.
My reason would be the simple fact that it is impossible to purchase
machines without purchasing a Microsoft Operating System. To many, this
is not very important, but to a growing number of people it is definately
an issue. Personally, I've been using Unix operating systems for a good
number of years, and for about the last seven years I've used the Linux
Operating System on my personal machines. At first, it was a toy. It was
"neat" to run the same thing as the expensive campus computers. I would
"play" with Linux and boot to DOS (or later, DOS/Win) to run things like
word processors, games, and the like.
Now, however, Linux has come into it's own. There are legitamate ways to
use Linux for everything I need a computer to do. At first, I thought it
was impressive when Linux became stable. Then, all sorts of cutting-edge
tools and services became available, and I no longer had to log in to a
campus server to do my programs for my computer science classes, or use a
campus Unix server for anything- whatever it was, Linux could handle it.
Still, when I needed to do a paper for English 101, the easiest way to do
it was a word processor which ran under Windows. Increasingly, however,
the solutions available for Linux, even for such "end-user" tasks as word
processing, are equaling or surpassing their Windows equivalents.
Things have changed. Years ago, I would boot to MS-DOS to do "important
things". Linux was too flaky. Now, the next time my computer-illiterate
mother buys a computer, I may set it up with (or suggest she buy it with)
Linux. It has gotten to be so good, so robust, so complete that I never
need to use Windows any more, and I will not pay for a Windows licence if
I am not going to use it.
I hope that, in the future, Dell's policy regarding Operating System
choice can be revised. I'm not going to purchase scores of computers at a
time for personal use, but I will purchase scores of them one by one, each
without Windows. I will also influence others' buying decisions, whether
they are friends, family, co-workers or departmental purchasers. Of
course, I will only recommend things I would purchase myself. Perhaps,
this will continue to be Dell. Personally, I hope this is the case.
Sincerely,
Anonymous Coward
As it happens we just received a Toshiba 4000CDT today. Unfortunately I have to keep on Win9x on it but you may be interested to know that the EULA is still there. HOWEVER, there the bag containing the laptop was sealed with a sticker that says "...by opening this package you indicate that you have read and accepted these software license terms." Heh.
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/filters/kattoon/
"Dear Dr. Stupid; what is that ugly white slab in my can of beans?"
Dr. Stupid: "That ugly white slab in your can of beans is... WINDOWS `98!"
To see the real reasons behind the now-famous EULA refund provision and the problems which OEMs got with the refund policy, one may look at the documents from the 1994-1995 M$-antitrust case.
That time M$ was charged with having monopoly on the OS market and exercising its power on OEMs and, less important, on customers. In a concent with DoJ antitrust division, M$ promised to allow customers to choose the operating system, and DoJ agreed that (I'm citing the meaning, not verbatim) "since there is no other popular operating system on the market, and taking into account that computer cannot operate without an OS, to avoid customer confusion PCs can be sold with M$ OS pre-installed". So, PC goes with pre-installed M$ OS, but customer can legally have this PC without that OS -- technically it was intended to be settled through the refund clause (see, it is not "a loophole", as ZDnet suggested, it was a legal issue in the face of the antitrust case!).
"Final Judgment" on that case, issued in August 1995, in part said that:
M$ cannot restrict use of the PC to M$ OS or any other MS software, or forbid developing non-M$ software on the PC; customer or developer does not have to get permission from M$ for that or notify M$ about his intension to use or develop non-M$ software;
per-processor license agreements with OEM are illegal ("per-processor licensing" means that OEMs paid M$ licensing fee for each sold processor no matter whether it was with M$ OS or other OS or without any OS at all, or probably even without a hard drive) and were converted to "per system" license agreements.
The latter part basically means that the only allowed types of license agreements were "per license" and "per system" variants. "Per license" thing is obvious: OEM pays M$ for each sold "M$ license". I think that in reality it would mean that OEM is charged by M$ the street price which is not very nice. "Per system" is much more interesting. It says that OEM will pay for each sold "system", and "system" means a PC model (with definite model number) for which M$ and OEM have a contract to sell it bundled with M$ software. Usually, one can see the label "Disigned for M$ (R) WIndows (R) 95" or similar on that models, but it is not necessary. OEM has a freedom, however (M$ press representatives say here absolute truth) to create a new model (with a different model number ! ) which is equivalent to the M$-ed one in any respect except it doesn't have the sin of the OEM-M$ licensing contract, and OEM does not need a permission or does not have to notify M$ on this,
and this model can be sold with anything non-M$ or without anything at all.
Good. Now, see how often OEMs produce new models for that pleasure to make a few Linux geeks happy, with a chance to loose the status of a "preffered" customer of M$ (which could well double the price of the lincense and kill the whole business). On the other hand, it is absolutely impossible to decide who should pay for returned software. OEM already paid M$ for the license, and even if the license comes back from the customer, the "system" is still sold. For OEM, it would be just money from its pocket, with no apparent falt from its side. They do not want that precedent (this explains why Toshiba agreed to refund for M$ software but only if I return it with the notebook -- see $5 refund story). They are trying to negotiate with M$ with obvious result -- M$ does not want to dissolve the contracts in any way, otherwise you know what would happen...
And now another antitrust case, and "Refund madness", and customer rights defenders... OEMs really do not have a good way out of this trouble. Most likely, they would not mind to give up -- in the way that it would be not their decision but the result of exceeding force.
After February 15, M$ license's live may well never be the same.
Igor
I'd love to get a refund on the multiple copies of win95, NT, and NT Server I have lying around my office, but I agreed to the EULA! Silly me. I still use NT on my laptop, but I have multiple unopened copies. But to return those, I'd have to lie. And if I can't get my money back honestly, I won't pursue it. I made an informed decision, and I have to live with it.
However, I learn from my mistakes. At work I resolved mid-last-year to stop generating revinue for MS, and I've stuck to it. If any other software vendor treated us in the same way, we'd dump them in an instant (and we have). And looking away from the business relationship towards the functionality of our systems, it's no surprise that our uptime ratio and performance are both increasing as we phase out NT.
Our last NT production server is slated to be migrated to Linux next month (and if MS had an inkling of which megacorp it is, and how close it is to their backyard, they'd collectively piss themselves). And I won't have to worry about that goddamned EULA ever again.
'"OEMs are completely free today to ship any OS they choose. There is no provision in any of our contracts telling OEMs they can't ship something else" or even a so-called "naked" system without any operating system preloaded.'
uh-huh, sure. I called Dell to inquire about the Inspiron 7000 laptop. I told the guy I didn't want Windows, wouldn't use it, and would immediately install Linux or FreeBSD upon receipt of computer. He said that he would be willing to ship me one with a blank hard-drive, i.e. NO Windows, but HE WOULD CHARGE ME THE SAME. So they can ship 'a so-called "naked" system', as long as they still force the hapless consumer, ME, to pay for a copy of frigging Windows that I won't even receive.
Let me write that again: they would charge me for a product that I did not want and that they would not deliver.
I could build my own desktop computer, but I can't build my own laptop, and I can't buy a laptop without paying the MS tax (unless I were rich and could buy a SPARC laptop for 12 grand). The result: I gave up and bought no laptop.
Oh well, I'm sure billionaire Michael Dell won't miss my 2400 bucks, but maybe someday it will matter.
Why can't Microsoft just get out of my way?
cheers,
ccg
but it is a loud publicity stunt that brings to attention how MS has OEMs by the "shorthairs". Sure the idea of people getting money back for a worthless product shoved on them is nice, but this is all happening for the publicity and rightness of it all.
Look, for years, there have been thousands of people trying to save a few bucks buying computer equipment. And for years, those same folks have been forced in many situations to buy a computer saddled with an operating system they either did not need, nor want.
How many machines bought by large corporations that immediately removed Windows and installed OS/2 in the 90's were there? Answer: Lots!
Regardless of the OS installed later, there has been an assumed "tax" for far too long.
And for those of you that say "build your own"?
To you I direct your attention to the millions of PC buyers that WANT to buy a box from a Dell, or Compaq or HP and have the freedom that a three year warranty affords.
I can say that from personal experience with my now 3+ year Dell, which has been rock solid despite myriad home-performed upgrades (including a very happy Linux partition) that whenever I called them for hardware service, they never asked what OS I was running.
Please. Take a moment and look at the bigger picture.
I want to die peacefully in my sleep as my grandfather did...
As I said.
:)
I never had a copy, and I would return it if I had one
People using html in email should be shot.
I had to vote "No" because I don't have a copy of Windows (at least not that I paid for). Had I actually paid for Windows at some time in my life, I might actually do this though. Now that I think about it, I have only paid for 2 Microsoft products in my life: VB5 and Flight Simulator for Macintosh. I got VB 5 for $99 (studnet discount) and it came with NT Workstation 4.0. Oddly enough, I still feel robbed. Maybe I should return it as a gesture...
No more need be said. But have fun, guys, I'm delighted to be reading about this stuff. :) :) *
*returns to fussing with linuxppc box w. windowmaker and all kinds o' funky widgets and programs
If I were them, I wouldn't take it seriously either.
1) It's the OEMs who have to give back the money, not Microsoft. Microsoft already sold the OEMs the copies. It's the OEMs who sold to the users.
2) There are going to be relatively very few people actually asking for refunds. First, anybody that's booted up their computer even once is ineligible, so all those of you who switched from windows to linux aren't eligible (or even if you booted windows once just to run partition magic). Secondly, over 99% of the people who own Windows actually want it, and do not want to return it for a refund (contrary to popular belief, Linux's marketshare is still WAY under 1%.) Out of those few who don't want it, even fewer will actually bother trying to return it.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
MS Says they don't require OEM's to ship their
operating system.
Tell it to the judge...
Posted by Brad_S:
.. {wink}{wink}"
I asked a sales person for no operating system with the assembled system, the sales person insisted that I purchased Windows 95 but after a little bit of deleberation he kinda said;
"Ok then.. we just won't tell anyone about this one then
Implying that I was going to put an Illegal copy of Windows on my pc. When I told him that I was going to install Linux on it he said that "we will not give you any support if you use Linux", I replied saying that I do not need his support anyways and then took my business elsewhere.
Posted by theAnti:
;)
Hey,
another lucky guy.
I don't have a copy,too. In germany it's possible to buy a computer without an OS.
In fact i have some Win-Licenses, but I don't think I can refund my WinOS/2, even if i don't use it.
And I think they won't refund my WfW 3.11 (the best Windos ever)
Posted by grahamatwork:
Just occasionally I wish people would read the Linux Advocact HOWTO. I love Linux and dont use anything else at home, but pouring vitriol on Microsoft continuously just makes us all look a bit immature.
Saying that, I still think you should be entitled to your money back if you don't use or want the software, just try and remain calm.
Graham Arden
Posted by Stephen "The Carp" Carpenter:
//GS)
I personally, legally, own 1 windows licence.
Unfortunatly, I already agreed to the EULA
(over 2 years ago...before I knew Linux
existed...not my fault - I was upgrading
directly to a PC from my
Of course I have not USED that copy of windows
in over a year now...too bad...There is
no provision for getting rid of it after
accepting it. Maybe one of these days I will
have to burn it in some sort of ritual.
Posted by nitemare:
Never had to even try returning a copy of windows. I just boot linux when I want to and boot Macos if i need to.
Now I'm sure someone is going to say that
apple does the same thing, bundling Macos with their boxes. But its different in that Apple makes their own hardware, and they aren't a monopolistic monster...buying into every industry they can until they control all types of communication in the world.
Has anybody noticed a major flaw in the logic of your average OEM computer company here? They are paying per CPU for Windows, so they refuse to sell "naked" PCs because you'd expect a discount they can't offer (except at their own expense -- hell will freeze first). Similarly, they can't sell you a machine with an alternative OS like OS/2 except as an extra item. You still get Windoze because they still pay for Windoze whether you want or use Windoze or not.
Hence, their current behaviour.
They're missing an obvious point, however. They could ditch Windows and offer Linux as an alternative without modifying the cost. They would still refuse to offer "naked" machines, because you would rightly expect a discount. They could replace Windoze with Linux, however, and sell the machine at the same cost. They'd still be paying the MS tax on the computer, but because there is no Linux tax (not even on a per-use basis), there's no need to modify the cost.
One could rightly expect some sort of discount for a free OS like Linux, but they could blah-blah about how it costs them to install it -- and then hackers would say "so give me a naked machine and I'll do it myself", to which they would respond, "we don't offer naked machines" etc ad nauseam.
The point is that OEMs could easily extend their OS range to include Linux without damaging their precious bottom lines (unless Microsoft started playing bully-boy, which would be absolutely wonderful fuel for the MS-DOJ case). The bad point is that Microsoft would then (in effect) be collecting the Windows tax on Linux.
On the bright side, MS might still be raking in the cash under that scheme, but their market share would get hurt, and that's probably more precious to them than straight cash.
there's clearly at least one option missing from the poll, especially "I would if I *had* a copy".
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Unfortunately I need my coies of 3.1, 95 and NT to make a living so there's no chance of me taking anything back just yet. Having said that...
It's great that people who do have the choice are excercising it though. I really hate all these horrible licences. The only closed source licence I could understand (and was actually enforcable under Scottish Law) was the Borland/Inprise one.
Becourse, I never bought it. Not even once have I owned a copy of M$ WinSlow ;-)
Oh jeeez. Come back when you've stopped smoking shredded copies of Atlas Shrugged. Or better yet, don't.
-lee, typing this on his FreeBSD-only box
Since I bought my 2nd-hand machine w/ Linux preinstalled, I guess I have to pass on this. It's such a good feeling to know that bg isn't anywhere near my 'puter.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
I run all Power Macs...I do have a copy that came with Connectix Virtual PC. It came free with my G3 so if I returned it and got money back that would be like stealing from Apple/Connectix. Connectix makes good software.
I would return mine, since I never used it, but it got stolen when my dorm was broken into last year.. That and a Zip drive that I didn't use anymore because of the Click of Death..
Some people..
End of line..
Well, when I bought my machine, it had Windose pre-installed. It was win3.1 (not 3.11!) and it was a legal copy - not so common for home user in our lands, which are called "country of one diskette". And I admit using it.
Since then my hardware went a chain of upgrades which basically left nothing but dust to remain from the original configuration. And the software got upgraded to Linux - now 2.2.0pre8. So my computer never got in touch with windws more recent than 3.1 - and I have thus nothing to return or complain. And I feel good for it!
On the other site, in our lands it would be almost impossible to return it unless you buy it from very respected company's reseller - which going to cost you about additional 50% of price. Others just won't understand what you are talking about.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
I would, but I built my system from scratch, AND I actually have to use Windows NT to do work related things.
sigs are a waste of space
Hmmm... well, and Quicken (tax time, y'know ;). I suppose I could do that in linux, but my accountant likes things in Quicken, and I figure I can suffer through a little windows use better than I can suffer through an audit... ;)
--
rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)
"People will pay big bucks for the luxury of ignorance."
Most of the people that read / use slashdot are geeks. We use or at the very least know about alternate operating systems (from BeOS to Mac to BSD to Linux and even SCO, SUN and AIX). How many people actually *buy* computers from Dell or Compaq for home use just to get it home and reformat the harddrive and do god knows what to it (like overclock with a water-cooled heatsink). Most of the people here are going to purchace from a place where you can get Linux (or BeOS or Mac or whatever) installed, and are going to purchace from a smaller company that a friends owns or such. I personally bought from a small company in Arizona, and got exactly the video card I wanted with the RAM I wanted and the Motherboard with the options I wanted. Lets face it, we're not afraid to do this because we're not afraid to jiggle the video cable a little if the screen is black, or even *gasp* open the case and examine the card. The only OEM stuff I have is stuff from work, and as a contractor, I really can't pull NT off of my workstation and install Linux to administrate the NT environment. Sure there are probably tools to allow me to engage in administration duties, but I'm not a permanent member here, and this isn't my PC to play with (although, I've gotta admit, I'm using spare cycles on this PC to crack RC5). Fact of the matter is that we're not going to have OEM's to deal with as we are for the most part buying non-EULA PC's.
Clinton made me a Republican. Bush made me a Libertarian. Trump is making me question reality.
will they refund my win 3.11 (if i find all disks?!)
:-)
olaf
Could be worse. Could be raining.
Sorry...
1) My only bought system came from gateway with Win 3.1, before Linux was out.
2) I need 95 - otherwise I can't play some games, do some work stuff, etc...
So Per-Model or Per-System licenses are kosher per the consent decree. (The consent decree as a whole is a highly recommended read).
"L'IT c'est moi!"
No, I'm not crazy. The idea is that the bigger this "refund day" gets, the more Bill can show to the courts that he doesn't have a monopoly. He is smart, everytime we try to outsmart him we get hurt or he gets richer or both.
I would venture to say that the whole reason MS put that refund clause in the EULA was because of the 1995 consent decree that prevents them from doing per-processor Licensing fees. But if you think about it, If you charge the vendors who require you to purchase windows less than vendors who give you a choice, it's the same damn thing. So if you can't getting a refund, the net effect is still the same as if they still had per-processor licensing.
:)
company A requires you to purchase windows with every machine, and gets OEM win98 for 45 bucks.
company B doesn't require it, and they sell 90% systems with windows, and 10% non-ms systems and pay $50 bucks for OEM win98.
If they each sell 100 computer systems, MS gets $4,500 from each company. So, charging different dealers different prices is effectively the same as per-processor licensing, and still gets MS the same money they were getting before. This is why I contend that the refund clause in the EULA was to satisfy the DOJ with the 1995 consent decree. MS can say that it's the responsibility of the OEM's, and I guess you can say it is, but I'll bet you that if a manufacturer takes too many refunds, it will translate to higher prices from MS. It may even be that the OEM must cut their losses, and whatever they give you for the return is straight from their pocket. This is a seriously screwed up situation, and should the OEM's refuse to give refunds due to this, it might could be considered a violation of the 1995 consent decree.
There may be a solution if MS decides not to take these people seriously. Can you say "class action lawsuit" boys and girls? I thought you could
--
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
The only "complete" ( as in store bought, single box, Name brand" ) PCs I have ever owned were a coleco Adam ( how many Slashdot have ever seen that ? ) and an IBM AT ( The Original ).
The 1st didn't run much MS software ( not sure about the basic ). The second ran DOS and I used it extensively.
All the MS software I have now is BETA testing stuff. All legit. All $0. All valuable education. ( I still find it amusing when the people who tell me Windows is better than Linux are shelling out money to have me fix Windows for them. ).
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Ditto (on the subject line).
/* MAGIC THEATRE
ENTRANCE NOT FOR EVERYBODY
MADMEN ONLY */
I NEVER had any license from microsoft !!!!
(made my intel box myself -
my bebox isn't M$ realted -
maybe some stuff in my atari falcon might be m$
related)
;)
none Yet.
I've got at least 3 or so copies of NT workstation and one copy of NT server that I and my employer will never use because these machines are Linux only boxes and the NT copies are utterly superfluous (We've a site license, believe it or not...). We're going to attempt a refund request on the date specified. All of you out there should too if you meet the criteria and have a Microsoft product covered by the EULA (Note: At least some copies of Windows 98 don't have the standard EULA with it- they've got some other license with them, according to the rumors going around. Make SURE you've got the EULA as a license for the software...)
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
This is what a monopoly can leverage. Since they will not allow choice, I would like to stick my copy of MS95/Office that came with my top of the line Gateway Solo up the asshole of Bill Gates.
.... May times not be hard enough for them to be bought out by The Monopoly (tm).
If the DOJ keeps playing the wimp and does not use some muscle, the MS destiny will be complete.
You have no choice. You as a consumer will use what Bill Gates dictates you to use. Unless you are on the edge an use Linux or BSD or an Apple or Solaris or
So, as I read this, MS sez "OEMs must make their own decisions." I.e. MS will not refund OEM money. Not surprising: MS sold the OEMs the right to install MS products on all their pc's for a given price, or some very low price per pc. But the retail price of these products is quite high, ~$100 for windows, several hundred for Office. Neither MS nor the OEMs can afford a significant number of people demanding the refund...
:)
:)
I think what MS is saying is "We sell such a high volume, we can stand the nuts making a fast buck off us, and so can the OEMs. It's still a good racket." Which it is. But we can still get some PR, personal satisfaction, and $ from doing this
Poll idea: which brand of machines/architecture do you buy (for yourself, not work), or do you roll your own intel or alpha? I haven't bought an MS OS in quite a while, not since my original copy of win95 (needed for game programming bfore linux glide
MS's PR flack said:
"We consider this a PR stunt by some Unix guys." -- Adam Sohn, M$ PR Flunkie.
That rubs me JUST the wrong way.
AS IF "some Unix guys" that were just fucking around with some stupid OS back in the 70s didn't build the Internet with it. AS IF most of the best software in the world has arisen from UNIX and its decendants!
GAH
that really, really ticked me off. Gross generalizations like that get people in trouble.
-- haaz.
> Sohn added that Microsoft has no plans to > orchestrate a counter-demonstration emphasizing > customers' "high satisfaction" with Windows.
:).
I repeat, to the best of my knowledge, there is NO B3 bomber.
Sounds familiar? We have NO plans to emphasize "high satisfaction" even though we just emphasized that in this same sentence.
I also like the fact that "high satisfaction" is in quotes
I'll give MS this much, they know the power that language can have on thought.
Grue
It seams like fun but none of the twenty or so
computers I own could even run windows wihout
emulation.
My wife and I both run Linux (with a small partition for IBM PC-DOS and GEOS/New Deal Office) on laptops we bought used. They both had Win95 installed when we got them, but that lasted about as long as it took me to get them to my office. So... no return possible.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
> The geeks who are unfamiliar with business tend to have a hatred toward Microsoft simply because the company has had an enormous impact on 'their industry'.
But the geeks who are familiar with business tend to have a hatred toward Microsoft because it unleashes a barrage of crappy products on the previously uninitiated. And it purports to be the Great Innovator. And it uses its cash stockpile as a club against any who would attempt to compete against it.
If they can get away from this we can start being truly Windows-free.
Sanity.html - Error 404 not found
I have Win3.1 from an OEM license for an older computer, which is no longer in use. I got a free promotional copy of Win'95 upgrade through the ACM programming competition a few years back. I got Win'98 through work, where I have access to an MSDN subscription. I don't need no rebates.
'Course, that's not to say I use them. Although my hard drive is partitioned about 40/60 for Windows/Linux, usage-wise it's about 0.1/99. (The other 0.9% of the time it's turned off.) Only reason I have so much hard drive space for Windows is because all I have in Windows is games, which typically take 300-400 megs each nowadays. Blah.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
wait, is linux competition or not? will people be replacing windows with linux, or no?
hope the gov't attorneys bring this up in the trial...
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
And please stop turning this thing into another Microsoft-bashing campaign. It makes Linux users look so immature. It is very simple. According to the EULA you get with your pre-installed windows, you can get a refund. If you want it that bad (I personally would, but that is beside the point) go through all the trouble and in the end you will probably get it. It might take a few months, and you might have to invest some money in legal advice, but of course the EULA is quite clear and even Microsoft would not try to wriggle its way out of it. My point is: remain your dignity and calm while you adress Microsoft, it is better for yourself, Linux and 'our' public image.
- --------------
Also, I think it is wrong to think of Microsoft as 'the enemy'. Why? Because we are all in this IT business together. All workers, Microsoft, Linux, or whatever else you have, contribute something to the general progress of the computer 'knowledge'.
Microsoft did invent some good things too. Remember that a lot of good companies just got bought by them, so those people did not belong to Microsoft before. Are they suddenly bad programmers because of a takeover?
Think of it this way: alienating capable Microsoft programmers is a dumb thing to do, because you should try to get them to work on Linux projects. Only Linux doesn't have any money to offer, so they should get drawn to the 'bright' side by 'warm fuzzy feelings' for Linux, its projects, or its people. The way Microsoft-users are adressed by Linux-users in general, I can't imagine it will install any goodwill. Let alone have them come to 'our side'.
-----------------------------------------
UNIX isn't dead, it just smells funny...
-------------------------------------------------
UNIX isn't dead, it just sme
Alot of folks who use a Microsoft based OS do not realise the total cost or "stor value" of the software that they have on their computer. Beside the folks who buy pre-built systems, the folks who build there systems or upgrade their system usually get a copy of the OS from a friend or some other means. Now, i am not try to point fingers at anyone, but if it was completly possible to stop piracy in all its forms, and to prevent folks from abusing "shareware" software, and stop "cracking" of software... then alot of folks would be switch from MS to linux, based on the fact that most of them cannot afford to pay the high prices that is required to attain software these days. Those few of you who were never in the piracy scene may not realize the dept of piracy that runs rampant in the computer industry. Even in companies and schools, managers are forced to either ignore the license of some software because they cannot afford to pay those crazy ammounts of money for software that they need. Maybe it is wrong, but that is not the point. It is happening, and it would not be happening if something was not wrong with the current software system. Microsoft may not have cause it, but they are the symbol of all that is wrong. How we deal with this could decide the next step in the evolution of our species.
well, this is what happens when you don't sleep for a long long while!
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
so I *could* return it. :P
They're just asking for it.. If they don't take this seriously, this could be ammunition against them and potentially a very bad PR move.
Actually, I hope they don't take this seriously, and this thing blows in their faces.
They're the ones who've been in bed so long with Microsoft, they're bound to get venereal diseases.
:-)
--Eric Guenterberg
First computer I ever used ... A Coleco Adam ... It even had CP/M!
I thought everyone here would be building theirs from parts .. it's not as it that's difficult anymore, and it allows you to know exactly what you're getting ..
Who here buys pre-built systems? Why!?
I have built most of my own computers, except my first 286, and that came with Geoworks, so I don't have a lot to bitch about. The only complete machine I ordered besides the 286 came with command.com and nothing besides, which wasn't needed anyway for my CD-ROM install of Debian.
I wouldn't recommend the company that sold me the machine for any reason other than not making me buy windows 95, unfortunately.
-Gabriel
I broke the shrinkwrap back in July for the win98 for my Libretto -- which of course is now running 2.2.0-final. :(
I think it's a riot that the same company who was busted trying to orchestrate grass-roots support for themselves, not to mention (allegedly) arranging for positive survey results in a study then used by their DOJ-trial witness, should use the phrase "PR stunt" ANYWHERE.
One more corporate hypocrisy to file in the "why-slashdotters-flame-microsoft" cabinet.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
Here's the reply I received from Dell:
-----Original Message-----
From: Enterprise Online [mailto:Enterprise_Online@Dell.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 5:04 PM
To: 'Ben Kimball'; Enterprise Sales Support; Dickerson, Shawne
Subject: RE: Windows Refund
Ben,
I am not aware of this. I have copied our customer service to see if they
are aware of the program. Rob Myers
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Kimball
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 3:41 AM
To: enterprise_online@exchange.dell.com
Subject: Windows Refund
What are your steps involving returning unused copies of Windows? We
do not
use Windows, we use SCO Unix. We recently became aware of the fact that you
will be offering refunds for unused copies of Windows beginning February 15.
Thank you very much.
Well, actually I do have a copy of Win3.1/DOS 5, but hey, I was young and foolish :-) And Linux was pretty unknown in 1992, anyway.
When I bought a new PPro a couple of years ago, I specifically asked for "No operating system please, thank you very much!", and they agreed without questions.
/B
Bought it from VAResearch without Windows. Why waste a trip? But it would be fun, in a sad sort of way.... :-)
--
Infuriate left and right
A) I build all our office/project PC's from parts.
B) Usually the parts don't include windows
C) If they did, I suspect my boss would want to
keep them.
Good luck to y'all anyway.
The only computers I have ever owned are the two I built from scratch. Those don't come with crappy bundles.
I wish I could return it. MORE LINUX GAMES PLEASE!
I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed...
What's the use of returning windows cd, when :)
you can make a nice clock out of it, or use
it for shooting practise targer ? Also the box
is quite good atleast for a target...
What comes to those "manual"'s one can fire
up a grill with it
Since I'm a Mac/LinuxPPC user, Rebate Day doesn't apply, but if I did have Windows, you had better believe I'd be returning that copy.
I'd return my 98 perhaps, 'cept MS gave it to me for being a guinea pig, er Beta tester... :) Now it's Linux for me...
Time flies like an arrow;
Time flies like an arrow;
Fruit flies like a bananna
If I returned Windows, how would the idiots in the house ever use the computer again? They can barely use it now.
(THEM) Help me use Microsoft publisher!
(ME) I don't know Microsoft publisher.
(THEM) Your the computer guy! Help me!
(ME) (*&^#@(#@ OK! What do you want to do?
(THEM) Insert a picture
(ME) OK, let me try then.
(THEM) But I wan't to do it so I learn.
(ME) I have to do it cause I don't know how.
(ME : search through menus until I find the correct entry)
(THEM) Oh, so that's how you do it.
(ME : Nearly strangle them for being too afraid to actaully try to work things out)
Let these people near a command line? Hell, let them near my standard Window Maker/GNOME combo? KDE? I don't think so. I get annoyed enough by the moron level questions as it is. An entire new OS is far to far above these people. Even if it is massively superior
Of course, if the machine was just for me Windows would never be installed (point to clause in EULA at point of sale, before paying). Not that this would happen, cause I build my own machines.
Colin Scott
Final Year Computer Systems Engineering Student
Colin Scott If you build it, they will be dumb...
Well, I lied. I said I would return a copy... but then I just realized, I don't have any to give back. The only copy of I have belongs to my employer. (First thing I did when I got my new box was slick it. Never even bothered with Windows.)
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
users have a "high satisfaction" with windows?
These guys really DO live in cloud cuckoo land. This isnt some nice statistical survey - this is the simple fact that most people with computers have never had any non-windows experience.
Ask any Amiga/Mac/SGI/un*x/Linux/BeOS person who also uses any Microsoft OS whether they have ANY satisfaction with it - I think they'd soon come down to the real world.
MS may dominate right now - but they'll fall down soon - and very fast too
alan
Okay, so MS doesn't pay the oem's for any refunds. :>
So nothing will change for ms? Uh.. I dinna think so laddie
Why would any OEM want to renew contracts w/ MS under the same flawed eula? Heck if I were an OEM
I would only start purchasing an OS AFTER I got the order form completed for my next batch of computers.
Now then, do I order from MS who told me to slag off about my refunds, or do I spring for a couple thousand copies of linux? (CD pressing anyone?)
More importantly though it is the concept that customers might want a choice about what they want loaded on their systems that could be the real shift in thinking.
Q>What would it be like to live in a world where no company just assumes your going to want Windows or NT on your system?
A>If MS blows this off, we may all find out gratifyingly soon. : )
~Grell
~I've always maintained that one should never tangle with anything that has more teeth than the Osmond family.
...when it gets down to fundamentals, do what you have to do and shed no tears. Dr. Matson in Tunnel in the Sky
I cant stop laughing over this one. I have been telling everyone I know about this in hopes to find some people that fit the requirements for a refund...
Anyway..
1. People want refunds
2. MS laughs and says No.
3. DOJ sees MS go back on EULA
4. MS gos down in flames.
-ARRoW
Have you helped a newbie install linux today?
One a day is all it takes. www.redhat.com
symetrix. We are building a religion, a limited edition.
No copy of windoze for me either...if i had one, i'd turn it in, but i built my machine myself, and i never contaminated my hard drive. slackware was the first thing to inhabit its pristine sectors.
Do they accept them with coffee stains on them :)
...when it runs perfectly fine on my computer.
Of course I don't run that crappy Windows 9X, spending an additional $50 for NT was worth it.
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
"Computers are nothing but a perfect illusion of order" -- Iggy Pop
Do you really think it's important to tell the entire slashdot readership that you've assembled a pc from separate components, so you don't have a copy of Windows to return?
Geez, get a life, people. Half the posts for this story basically say just that.
Firstly, every man and his dog can assemble a pc nowadays. It's really not necessary for you to tell everyone. Secondly, the point of the story is about *bundling* - about buying ready made systems from big OEMs, especially laptop, i.e. not stuff you assemble yourself.
I really don't give a rat's arse if you assembled a pc from components... something as difficult to do as building something out of lego.
One or two posts, fine. But so many?
The whole refund/protest issue illustrates exactly what the DOJ should be investigating, in my opinion. It's these kind of business practices that are the real crime, not some stupid OS/browser integration. Just points out how ignorant the federal goverment is in tech issues.
Back to the subject, no Windows here to return either. But if I had a copy...
I wasn't really in the mood to read all the dense economic jargon, but two interesting (albiet contradictory) thoughts crossed my mind:
I'd be curious to hear what others thing about this.
D
Hi all,
The ZDNET article glossed over the subject rather
quickly, almost as if wanting to report, but
fearing some dark menacing force was about to
stomp out their existence.
Seriously, "just between the end-user and OEM's"?
The contract is written BY Microsoft FOR end-users,
OEM's, and to benefit themselves. MS charges for
Win?? to be installed on OEM systems, but when
refund time comes, OEM's pay while MS is free
of any responsibility. All because of the EULA.
I think MS has ALOT to do with this refund issue.
This is another nail in the coffin, but it is also
a wakeup call to OEM's out there. To be more care-
ful of the contract they are signing with MS AND
the contract that MS is dishing out to the end-
users.
MS is right. OEM's ARE adults and should be able
to take care of themselves. Should have been
adult enough to read things carefully and not have
agreed to something they didn't understand.
MS is probably going to issue a counter statement
later in this issue. Why? Because they will have
realised that once again, they have made light of
a serious issue, one which will snowball itself
against their company.
Because.. if the OEM's realise that there is another
choice and decide that they've been screwed even
more deeply than they had originally thought, it
won't take much more to convince them to more
seriously consider a split from MS.
Vote with your dollars. Even if those votes are
in the negative value range, VOTE WITH YOUR $$$.
Without a strong OEM foundation, other OS's will
stand a much better chance of breaking through
to the OEM's.
Vote with your dollars.
I for one am looking forward to Feb 15th to see
how it will turn out. I've no win?? to refund
since my system is completely Linux. ^_^;
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
None here, I bought my original computer back in the days of DOS 5.0, and upgraded it one piece at a time every few months... :)
"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win."
Gandhi
I am a more recent convert. I just got my SCSI emulation going for CD burning, so by next month I should be 100% MS free. But I can't return it. :-(
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
the only reason i had to vote "no" on the question of returning WinDOZE on Rebate Day is because i actually use it. hard as it seems. granted, the only reason i use it is to play Starcraft....
_______
When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
Reasonably good story from Ms. Foley, one of the better ZDNet writers, but ...
How can I install the alternative OS BEFORE turning the machine on????
But I still need to use the Hebrew version of Office all the time, and that only runs on the Hebrew version of Windows. Anybody wants to put Hebrew/Arabic support for WINE, maybe?
SUCK..SUCK..
Maybe.
According to the http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f0000/0047.htm If model ip3xyz ships with 'free' windows 98 the OEM is charged for that license. OEM needs to ship model a computer with a different model number to escape the charge.
I've got to say this is one of the better satires comment's I have seen.
Keep up with the goot work AC.
I fixed one once. I still have two TI 99/4As at home.
I wish I could do that. But until I get a new computer, and until Linux has better games. I will be forced to live with a fourth rate OS. At least I can spend most of my time in Linux.
I have 5 PC's , 2 ACER, 1 COMPAQ & 2 DELL, and all have come with W95 , except the compaq (with NT). I have Linux in all, and i haven't used my copies of Windows.
I like Windows, but I don't use it.
Malcomito it's on the net... he's back!!
this is so typical of microsoft...nothing phases them...there so full of sh-t
Well, in Denmark it's also possible to buy a machine without an OS. A few hardware vendors do not do this, though, as they conclude that if you don't _buy_ an OS, you must be installing an illegal OS on it.
:-)
Their criteria was that they did not sell a machine without OS, so I asked that if I bought a PC, they'd install Linux on it..? Yes, they would - at additional cost. But I'd get Windows in my shopping bag anyway.
It took me about 2 clock cycles to leave the store and go to another shop, which did not have this policy
Best regards,
Snotboble
The way to love anything is to realize that it might be lost.
Q: How does a Unix guru have sex? A: unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;umount;sleep
I have never legally owned a copy of linux, and now that I have 2.2.0 running smoothly (YAY Linus and everyone else!), I never will buy one!
-Cheetah
This refund day thing is a bad idea - it will backfire. We all know that only a tiny percentage of Windows licences to be returned. Microsoft can then point to a massive level of user satisfaction. If you consider the amount they will pay out, it must be one of the cheapest pro-MS publicity stunts they could invent!
The "no copy to return" option should definitely be added to the poll. The way that poll reads is something microsoft would use to prove their point.
...but not only have I never paid for a copy of Windows in my life, I actually need the damned thing to run Starcraft, at least until WINE becomes 100% Windows-compatible.
I do support the principle of the thing, though. Go, Windows Refunders! Rah rah rah!
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
Neat.. if at least the 737 people who answered "yes" to the poll return their copiefs of windows, and they all get at least $50, (could be more!), that's almost $37,000 that Microsoft loses in one day! Not much, but still rather satisfying. :)
I am starting a business (legalities are being completed) in which we plan on making VME, CompactPCI, single-board, and embedded PPC (some custom jobs of 8xx series) systems. We will use true POSIX compliant OSes (VxWorks, LynxOS, etc.) and hope to show you why Linux is best on a mac. If you have requests, reply.
John Hancock ->
That's probably true. But since they've already paid Microsoft for the license,that doesn't make them very keen on shipping other operating systems. It probably costs them more to ship a blank hard drive than a hard drive with Windows, because it disrupts the normal assembly process.
I think this is a perfect example of Microsoft's stranglehold on the industry.
Technically, OEM's don't have to _install_ the MS OS on every machine, but they do have to _pay_ for it, no? ZD seems to have missed that little detail.
perhaps the wording should have been "I will/would return a copy..." I've never owned a wintel pc and so will not be returning a copy of windows. but I sure as hell would if I had such a system...
Who gives a flying rats ass about Microsoft.
I would much rather hear about arguments about which flavor of linux is best, or discussions on Gimp technique.
You shouldnt own an OEM copy of windows anyway.
The article CLEARLY states that the refund issue is between OEMs and consumers. END OF STORY.
I think several of you linuxheads are just sitting there wetting yourselves in excitement, hoping this will be the Boston Tea Party all over again. Come on!
Why waste all the time useing the return clause as a PR stunt. Lets just all pool all of our copies of MICROSUCK software (if you can call it that) and make a huge bonfire with them. Kinda like the graphic from linuxberg (http://flint.Linuxberg.com/images/igloo1.JPG). I will bring the marshmellos
-Yuk
"Yuk doesn't Belive in Pleasure......only pain"
Listen, guys, all this Windows-bashing is getting annoying. Yes, Bill Gates is kind of a pain in the neck. Yes, Microsoft engages in questionable business practices. Yes, Windows crashes sometimes. But on a well-run system with good, working hardware, it operates more than well enough to get any job done. Trust me. Last year, Windows crashed on me constantly. It got to the point where I was re-installing Windows once a week.
Then I replaced the bad memory module in my computer, and the problems went away.
Linux is a fun OS, but for me, it's still just a toy, for the most part; good for playing around with and doing CS assignments. I still spend most of my time in Windows, and even do most of my development work on that platform.
Of course, I do use Borland C++ exclusively... :)
Oh, and one more thing...it's really not that funny to spell "Microsoft" or any of its common abbreviations with a dollar sign, or to replace syllables of "Windows" with homonyms. Imagine how irritating it would be if the tables turned and people started talking about this thing called "LinSucks" all the time. (I know, I know, when pigs fly, but still...)
All unfair meta-mods are now being meta-meta-modded as retarded.
So answer me this... if there is no way to reject
the terms of the liscense, is it then invalid?
Could you then violate the terms of this agreement
that you never accepted... say, by distributing
copies of the software to others?
I called multiple PC makers, to see if they
would sell me a PC without MS installed nor
charged for.
I think that would be a nice category..
(I cannot return what I refuse to purchase).
But It may help alert PC makers, that some
refuse to purchase. Also the number of machines
affected.. Like for clusters being purchased,
I have them go to places that do not charge for
MS, since they save $100-$400 per machine, which
really adds up on 64+ dual cpu systems.
Mark
Funny how a thread on returning unwanted Microsoft software could turn into a rememberance of days before Microsoft.
My first three machines were, in order:
TI-99/4A (bought an cassette player from Sears)
Coleco Adam (High speed tapes! woo!)
Apple IIgs (real disks, and GUI to boot!)
Only later did I befall the curse of DOS and all that it brought with it.