Slashdot Mirror
Toshiba and EULA
I can't really confirm if this is true or not, so take this
as completely unsubstantiated, but
Riverwind writes "I've been following the recent discussion of refunds on Microsoft software due to refusal of the EULA. Today I recieved a shipment of Toshiba laptops and found there is a sticker saying that you can't even take the computer out of the plastic bag it is in without accepting the EULA. I don't remember that being on there 2 months ago, but maybe I just wasn't looking for it then. Seems like I may be stuck with paying for software I never intend to use. "
All I can say is WHAT?
Ok, now we know what to do...Boycott Toshiba.
Ben - Too lazy to login.
Looks like some more fuel for the DOJ v.s. M$ fire.....
Buy a different machine, and tell them you will not buy another machine from them until they allow you to run another OS on their machine without paying for Windows.
I realize this is not necessarily an easy thing to do when it comes to laptops, but all these corporations really understand is $$$. Don't even imagine they have any other silly concerns like "customer satisfaction" or anything.
If you are living in the US, I would get in touch with your states attorney general about this. In most states this type of thing is not vaild.
I've got my password written down at home, couldn't log in *dowt*. Anyway, here is the actual notice on the bag.
NOTICE: The software products pre-installed on your computer are copy-righted works. Before opening this package, please read the License agreements furnished with the computer. By opening this package you indicate that you have read and accepted these software license terms.
Thats on the plastic wrapping for the computer (ugh).
-Riverwind
If the document containing the EULA is inside the plastic bag with the computer AKA you have to -break- the seal to read it then that can't be binding. to say that if you open this package you agree to the legal document inclosed just make no sense.
It would be like if you recieved a an evelope from your wife with that kind of note on the flap and on the inside were divorce papers giving her everything.
An EULA like this implicitly implies that the Microsoft operating system is an integral part of the PC, no different from the CPU or the RAM. What a load of SHIT.
This reminds me...I was watching some moronic computer show on the weekend on Global. The geek was talking about how inevitable it is that a computer will crash. He then said "there is something you can do about it, though!" At this point, I was thinking "his solution had better be Linux or another REAL OS", but then he uncovered Norton CrashGuard. So, instead of identifying the shit OS as the problem (Win95/98), he glossed over it and made excuses...bullshit like "A system crash happens at the chip level...Norton Crashguard monitors chip-level signals and can anticipate when a crash is going to happen." So, according to Microsoftie speak, system crashes caused by the OS are really hardware 'events' (not problems, of course). This idiot made no distinction between the OS and the hardware...it was just 'understood' that all computers would be running Windoze. In other words, Windows IS the PC. Just reboot and ignore, folks. System Crashes are a natural occurence happening on the mysterious atomic level of the microchip, it has NOTHING to do whatsoever with ROTTEN, BUG-RIDDEN, BADLY-DESIGNED SHIT 'operating systems' like Windoze.
Sheesh.
The EULA is not binding in Canada or the U.S. if it is impossible to have read it at the time they claim you have implicitly accepted its terms.
i.e. If they want to say "You have to accept the EULA to open this box", then the entire text of the EULA has to be printed on the outside of the box.
I don't know why companies still insist on shrink-wrap licenses -- they've been tested in court in the U.S. and they don't hold up.
I am not sure about this one, but I think I saw a few references to companies buying laptops from major manufacturers and installing linux on them and then reselling. I might be wrong though...
Ok, so they say "You have to read the agreement included with Windoze manual and accept it before you open this computer".
Ok..
I read it.. I don't accept it. Since the EULA is for software, how can I return it? (Note that I bought the computer, I *own* it, and have no intention to return it to anywhere. I just want to return the software for which I did not accept the EULA).
I have a feeling that pretty soon this will turn into a huge legal mess. Hopefully it'll add power to DOJ case.
I saw on news.com, an article about Dell who will start selling computers with RedHat Linux, and support it too. Right now only on their servers. But those awesome laptops can't be too far behind, right?
. fd.gif.f
check it out at http://news.com/News/Item/0,4,31564,00.html?st.ne
I believe its already illagal to force someone to pay for a product just by opening a cd. I assume microsft could say its perfectly legal because if you open the cd case then your using the cd.
However this latest move is outright outragous and illegal to the endth degree. I believe their are numerous consumer protection groups agaisn't this form of fraud. Microsoft could only get away with this, if the oems decide to use this policy and not ms. I bet this particular oem decided on its own part to go to this extreme to protect its money because the oems and not microsoft lose money for each machine sold that doesn't include windows. (Microsoft will charge oem's the full price of windows if one of us returns it) that in itself is also illegal. You see, oem's are Forbidden to resell returned copies of windows. ITs true!
WHo knows Ralph Naders internet address? I think we need to call some consumer groups on this and maybe we can have a lawsuit.
If the license is =inside= the shrink wrap, it isn't valid. If it is outside, all you have to do is return the software =before= opening the shrink wrap and using the computer. What's the problem?
Will
To hell with Toshiba. Microsoft's partners are not "victims" in any sense of the word. No one is holding a gun to their head -- they signed off on the MS contract because it gives them a tangible monetary advantage. It allows them to compete on a higher level than smaller laptop manufacturers/distributors, and puts a few extra dollars in their pocket for every machine they sell. (And if you think the discount they get from MS is passed on to the buyer, you're fooling yourself. No one is going to take $20 into account when buying a $2000 laptop, but $20/machine is a fair-sized wad of green that can be plowed back into the marketing machinery.)
jafager
IMO, if neither Microsoft nor the companies doing their distribution are going to honor the return portion of their EULA, the EULA is invalid. This would make it legal to resell the software. Any retailers reading this? You could make a mint, buying copies of Win98 from people who've never opened it, and reselling it for a hefty mark-up. Alternatively, those of you with copies of Windows 95/98 sitting on your shelves, eBay awaits; put it up for auction!
I'd have to agree that this is the best course of action. If the EULA is the same version that's causing all the fuss (which I assume it is) then you are STILL entitled to the refund for the Software Product it offers you whether you open the box or not. Of course, if you have signed a contract with the reseller that has contradictory terms (and I have seen thing like "No refunds given on bundled software") then you're in legal limbo land.
Maybe VA or some other place should start making Linux Laptops
Theres obviously a market! At least something WITHOUT an m$
OS.
Japanese PCs suck anyway. I've never met one that worked quite right...
sue the capitalist scum! if this even gets INTO the courts, the EULA will have the shit beaten out of it.
:P
c'mon, there must be some linux user out there with a legal degree who's bored enough to apply for a refund, have it rejected because he opened the box and read the liscense agreement.. and take the case to court.
another interesting point: in Texas a contract is void unless it states within the contract what amount of time the contract is valid for. indefinate contracts are not valid. What does this mean for the EULA, which doesn't say anything about time?
(Hopefully he won't mind, the following is qouted from Nick Sayer, it originated on the Boycott Microsoft Forum)
The A in EULA - Agreement - is the key. Agreements
are voluntary, they cannot be imposed. The refund
clause is the fig leaf of voluntariness that is
necessary in order for the EULA to be valid. If
the EULA is not optional, then it ceases to exist.
If I have no avenue to decline to agree to
Microsoft's terms, then it becomes a condition
imposed post facto, which makes it worthless.
At which point, the software in question reverts
to being just like a book - A copyrighted work,
one copy of which I _own_. No license, no
conditions. I can decompile it, sell it to someone
else (provided I don't violate the copyright laws
in the process) - anything I want (so long as
it is not outlawed by the copyright statutes).
Microsoft truly is between a rock and a hard
place on this one. If they want shrinkwrap
licensing, then the purchase has to be non-
mandatory. And to the extent that the refund
amount is trivialized, that becomes further
evidence of dumping or other anti-trust
violations (how can they refund me $25 when
the price for a non-upgrade copy of win98 is
$189 in the stores?).
--Nick Sayer
Couldn't one take this logic even a step further, and say that running a pirate computer bulletin board or ftp site containing nothing but software with invalid, shrink-wrapped EULA's would be ok?
After all, if the license agreement is invalid due to the way it was packaged, then what's stopping a buyer from deciding to distribute multiple "off site backup copies" to others who might be interested in downloading the software and storing it for him/her on their machines?
Sorry Toshiba, you lose!
If I purchase (a license to) some piece of software, and later decide I no longer want it, I can (legally) resell it to a thirdy party. I merely have to transfer all copies of said software, and all manuals or other printed materials that came with it.
I've rolled my own for years. The last complete I bought was a 386sx back in the early nineties. It's the only way to get good components and not the OEM crap that Dell and Gateway use. Course if you're talking laptops, then I guess you have little choice.
If you were a major computer supplier that was accustomed to a way of doing things, that customers had always accepted (and they HAD accepted, whether they were happy about it or not), and this was about to be disrupted, what
/. and look around at the Real World for once.
would YOU do?
You make all your sellers say "This computer is bundled with MS Windows. Purchase of this computer constitutes acceptance of the EULA"
Computer manufacturers have always been willing to say "Don't buy it then" to people who didn't want Windows. DID ANY OF REALLY BELIEVE THIS WOULD CHANGE? Stop reading
I don't think any company is legally obligated to sell computers without Windows. If you don't agree to the EULA, you can return the entire computer, but I don't see how Toshiba can be required to sell a different product (hardware plus software) than what they want to offer. It might be different if Toshiba had a monopoly on laptops (the argument would then be similar to the IE + Windows lawsuit).
This "Windows refund" phenomenon will probably cause MS and most mainstream OEMs to re-write their user agreements so that no separate refund for Windows is ever promised (I think MS has already done this). They will probably also modify packaging so that no one can claim that it was necessary to break the seal to read the agreement. They will then say that those who refuse to agree to the terms of use can return the entire computer for a refund. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that they could legally require this.
On the other hand, it is definitely illegal for MS to prohibit vendors from offering alternative OS's. If enough consumers want machines without Windows, it will make good business sense for OEMs to offer them. It will be driven by economics, not law. Saying that Toshiba "has to" sell their laptops without Windows is like saying they "have to" offer models without (for example) Intel processors.
Just take the software back on the grounds that
its unsuitable.
Let's have a day... say March 2nd where everyone
.edu policy.
orders a toshiba and then returns it.
With all those shipping charges, I'm sure they'll
wake up.
I'll dedicate my alumni site if it doesn't violate
chandlerjw@linuxmail.org
If a liscencing agreement is inside a package you do not accept it just by opening the package. Even if there is a seal on the package saying that by breaking the seal you agree to all the terms of the liscence. You have to be given the opportunity to read the entire liscencing agreement before making a decision. Well, that is the case in the US anyway.
PC-Haus (http://www.pc-haus.de) and some other distributors in germany offer Baycom notebooks without OS and you can choose between Intel Pentium and AMD K6 CPU.
:)
No need to read the EULA and no sticker on the box
I've about had it with this kind of shit. These jackasses should be blacklisted. We need a website somewhere, maintained by the Linux community or other alternative OS folks, listing all of these transgressions.
How could this possibly be considerd a fair and ethical business practice? If I find out any company doing this, I'll do my best to avoid buying *anything* from them *ever*.
Toshiba should fully understand that this move will cost them TV, VCR sales, etc. If you run Linux, don't buy a Toshiba *anything*!
Let's get a comprehensive list going of all offenders.
Mike Greaves
when it say -msg don come aclickin
What we need now is for someone to
become an Emachines reseller, and sell $400
machines with Linux preloaded.
Emacihnes looks pretty picky about resellers
( http://www.e4me.com/reseller.html )
but maybe they'd accept a small fry to avoid
this Windows refund stuff.
Assuming they're willing to sell the reseller
their $399 computer with a $100 no-preload
discount, the reseller's margin on the Linux
preload would be the normal margin plus the
normal Microsoft tax minus the labor cost to
preload Linux - plus lots of good publicity...
With PC's, the argument is not clear cut.
For example, a car manufacturar CANNOT dictate
what fuel you run your car on, what oil you
use, what music you put in the stereo. Mandating
Windows on a PC is like saying that you can only
buy the car if you use ONE type of petrol, ONE
type of oil, and only listen to one type of
music, (which BTW is hard wired into the stereo).
A tape of music is a simple object, a PC is not
-- though people may argue otherwise. If any
of you use a PII, consider that more man hours
went into its design than into the engine of
any car that I can think of, which CANNOT be
said about a tape.
The argument that your PC is Windows simply
doesnt wash. If that is the case, then they
MUST advertise it as Microsoft Windows with
PC included, and then refund the PC hardware costs
when you take it back.
There was some game I bought recently, Myth 2 or maybe Half-life, where the outside of the box had a sticker over the opening saying you had to agree to a EULA inside the box before opening the box to look at it...
It's sad that there is no accountability in the industry. Ah well, as long as I have my Open Source programs, I'll be happy.
The only way to get these companies to change their policy is to vote with your wallet. Don't buy from Toshiba!
Don't buy a Toshiba then, sheesh.
god, not IBM! I dread every day I have to touch one of them things...
Can you imagine how much money they must have spent to put stickers on their inventory and modify all their production facilities -- just because of Linux?
Woo-Hoo!
Isn't this like an admission by toshiba that
users didn't have a chance to read the EULA
before? A sign that they will be refunding
past copies, and are just trying to control
future sales?
Yes, and it makes sense too.
:)
You buy something, it's yours. If you haven't been made aware that you're buying a license, you have bought the product, not the license.
And since it is not possible to enter into an agreement with your own property, you can safely ignore any such stuff. That goes for software as well, I've been told. At least in the Netherlands.
(contact an attorney to be sure, of course
Here at work we deal in IBM laptops, but it may be a similar situation. All the documentation, licenses, etc are in a separate box, and just the laptop itself is in a plastic bag.
If that's the situation, I don't see a problem with reading the licenses (we all know what they say anyway). And then turn around and return it to Toshiba if they aren't going to allow you to use it without that pre-installed software.
Yes, lots of people can do this: buy it, refuse the EULA, return it, BUT please do it with the same restraint and class as the original Australian refund guy.
Hopefully, not too many people will be obnoxious about it.
I already own a couple of toshiba laptops. But I will not be buying any more in the future (not while this policy persists). Actually, the whole issue leaves a rather foul after-taste and I will steer clear of Toshibas for quite sometime to come.
/.? IMHO, they probably should. It truly is the technical pulse of the computer industry.
Someone should forward this Slashdot discussion to Toshiba. That would be a nice wake-up call. Do big companies even read
Due to Toshiba's (and a few other companys) track record with Linux,
I say we need a list of companys to AVOID when buying for our OS.
Could simply be a list maintained by a popular linux web site
( eg. slashdot, freshmeat, linux.org, or something )
I was thinking about this in a different light.
Suppose you had a computer with Win95 on it (just suppose ok) and it broke, or was really old, so you wanted a new computer.
But you already have all your software with your data on good backups. You don't need another copy of the operating system for your previous computer, you just need to transfer the license so to speak.
Shouldn't you be able to get a computer without an OS at any time.
Umm, It's kind of hard to wipe a hard drive without plugging in a power cable. You'd have to remove the case, and install the hard drive in another computer. Not all that difficult for experienced hardware techs, but not that easy for your average PC user.
> Seems like I may be stuck with paying
> for software I never intend to use.
Why? Send 'em back. Toshiba's not the only
hardware vendor on the planet. Nor, from the
sounds of it, even the best.
I think that around here we've maybe *one*
Toshiba laptop (purchased recently). Sounds
like that's the way it'll stay, now.
and if everyone installed any OS they wanted, providing support would be a nightmare.
I'd imagine that if the user wanted something other than what the vendor customarily offered, they aren't exactly asking for hand-holding support. They want the hardware itself, and the support that comes with the hardware.
Most of the folk to whom this matters just want to buy the hardware. The fact that it is unavailable without the bundled package is merely offensive, as it adds to the cost and detritus associated with the hardware purchase.
Obviously, the buyers aren't going to be getting Toshiba on the horn and asking for RedHat support.
If you run Linux and your [insert component here] gives out, can you still get a replacement?
Here's a feeble analogy: if I play, exclusively, the output of my laserdisc player on my bright, shiny JVC television, is JVC obligated to replace the remote control under warranty if it breaks? Even though I don't use the television with the customary broadcast or tape software?
What I *do* with the hardware, particularly from a software standpoint, should be completely unrelated to the vendor's obligation to fulfil their end of the warranty contract bargain. If I run Linux on my hardware, and the hardware dies, I will go to the mat to see that I get the warranted replacement.
The bottom line comes down to this: There is a growing awareness and dissatisfaction with the so-called Microsoft Tax. And a vendor such as Toshiba taking extra steps to prevent people from avoiding it is not only a little unethical, but poor business practice -- the needs of the customer aren't met at the price the customer wishes to pay.
Of course, it's very easy to go out and buy an OEM laptop (a WinBook or some such) with no bundle at all. Most small resellers are perfectly happy to give you only the hardware.
Actually, I did get a refund for the radio I didn't want in my Saturn.
Is it possible to agree to a contract w/o reading it?
That's what Toshiba is in essense doing. They're saying "do you agree to the EULA that you've not read?"
Pfui. You could probably get your money back on this any day.
It makes sense to do what they are doing from Toshiba's point of view. If MS won't refund them the money for returned copies, then Toshiba will need to get people to return the whole computer so they don't lose any money.
This really sucks for consumers, but we as consumers do have a powerful weapon; our pocketbook. If we don't like this practice (and I don't), we should not buy from companies who enforce this. If enough people boycott them, they'll get the message.
By being so open about forcing someone to accept a contract they have no possibility of reading or being party to in a negotiation, they are putting themselves in a position where the first person to take this to the courts could do us all a huge favor (and possibly make some money from).
Legal experts and the courts have been saying the bulk of software licenses are absurd for years. This is such a blatant abuse of the purchasers rights that I'm surprised their own legal departments haven't said anything to stop them.
All I can say, is someone sue their asses off!
My Powerbook G3 is a pretty nice multiplatform machine IMHO. I can boot up in MacOS or LinuxPPC, and if I really have to I can run Windows crap in Virtual PC (which screams on this new machine compared to my old 604). I use it at home, on the road and at work, on a 'no-Mac' network.
If you like Macs, there _are_ good Linux notebooks.
You cannot accept an agreement that you have not read.
While everyone is focused on the individual :->
buying a computer with Windows and then loading
an alternative OS, remember that big companies
buy licenses in bulk for Windows users, then
the companies upgrade to newer computers that
have Windows "pre-installed." The companies
already have a license, so they don't need
and never use another copy of Windows. How much
do you think MS makes off _this_ situation? And
what if the big guys demanded a refund?
You are missing one little point.
:-)
It was Toshiba's parent company that makes extremely large 6 degree of freedom milling machines. We're talking robot arms with millimeter accuracy and a span of 18 meters. Biggest in the world, used to make one piece hydro-dam turbines, propellers, custom anything up to a size of about 30 to 40 feet cubed. Twice the size of anything russia had at the time, before that they made their propellers one blade at a time, and bolted them together. Variations in their machining steps meant for lots of cavitation and wobble, which meant noise for the enemy(us) to follow.
The machines russia got were big hydraulic things with a milling head that can whittle away a block of steel and leave a perfectly smooth complex compound curved surfaces. Takes about 3 months total to make a perfect screw propeller.
2 of the machines were exported from Japan to russia. One is in operation in Vladivostok, the other ended up at a shipyard in the west of russia.
Toshiba and other parts of the company caught a lot of shit for it. Now the shipyards are using these to make very good propellers for super-tankers and selling them for cheaper then western shipyards. Ahhh, capitalism at work
that I have wondered about.. A lot of stores that sell software often put on the sales receipt that opened software is only exchangeable (and only for the same title in a lot of cases), not refundable. But the EULA that comes in most packages does state that if you do not agree with the terms, it should be returned to the purchase point for a refund. The EULA, of course, is inside the box...
I have nothing but good things to say about my
Libretto as well!
It really freaks people out when they're sitting next to me on a plane and I've got LyX or something else up and I'm tapping away and I tell them "Nooooo, It's not CE, it's Linux" when they crane their heads over to ask. It turns heads even with regular Linux Laptop-ers who are used to lugging around thigh-crushers.
The company on the other hand could use a thwack or two, esp. for keeping the specs on their IR drivers closed.
Talked with our MIS guys today (they are /. readers as well). We work for a large networking company well known to use linux all over the place. All of our laptops are Toshibas. We have a site license covering all of our windows use, and we order naked machines by the thousands.
A week ago or so a shipment of Toshiba laptops came in with this wrapper and warning label. One of the packages was opened, and the machine booted win98. The machines are supposed to be naked, and our MIS guys then load them up with our custom version of windows.
So the shipment was sent back, and the Toshiba sales team who is dedicated to our company was informed that such crude attempts to change the licensing agreement (or to force the EULA down the throats of end users) was A BAD THING. They were told that if any other shipments came in like that, it would be considered a breach of contract and their contract would be cancelled.
Don't know if this warning shot from Toshiba's second largest customer in the world made any waves, but I would like to think so. We have only bought 15,000 machines of a 40,000 machine contract.
Besides, that type of bundling is against the law in California where we are protected by the UCC. I smell class action lawsuit coming after Feb 15th. Expect the companies who don't honor the EULA in a couple of weeks to be the main defendants in the case.
Gratuitous Firepower and Massive Retaliation -- Zig Zig Sputnik 1986
Ok, so Microsoft is claiming not to be a monopoly? Let's do the step-by-step:
1) All computers come standard-equipped with some flavor of Microsoft OS -- NT or Windows. The option to purchase a Windows-based machine is to buy a completely different computer (Macintosh, Amiga, C64) or try to convince the retailer to install Unix or Linux, neither of which is readily available from most retailers (that I know of, anyway).
2) Your typical user decides they don't want a Windows O/S on their computer -- never mind the hurdles they have to leap -- and to have the box shipped without Windows. The consumer asks the retailer for a refund on the value of the software.
3) Now the retailer is stuck with an un-used copy. If Microsoft WASN'T a monopoly, they would be obligated to refund that discounted copy of the O/S -- otherwise the retailer could opt to enter into a contract with another O/S manufacturer. Instead, Microsoft knows that since there are no other viable commercial O/S options (read: widely supported), the retailer is forced to either absorb the cost of the lost revenue (price for which retailer purchased software from MS) or get forced out a business.
You really can't sell computers without a viable O/S these days AND remain competitive -- and I know of no other O/S that's as prevalent as Microsoft. I'll continue to use Windows 95 in the short term -- I'm not too keen on using an O/S which
a) is inherently buggy, given the fact that many unpatched bugs still exist in Win95;
b) costs me anything for the "privilege" of having a browser incorporated with my O/S (great, more bugs, more security issues);
c) has a higher hardware requirement for a marginal gain in productivity (why do I need expanding menus, an active desktop and integrated Internet features when I can readily download anything and everything I need FOR FREE from the Net).
I'm an ASP programmer and MS technologies are my lifeblood. But that doesn't mean they should be the only game in town. If they've begun to think that this is the case, then the company should definitely be subdivided into smaller, more compartmentalized elements which would have to once again innovate in order to survive.
-=The Saiyan Vejita=-
Unless they specifically say that they will "custom build" you a computer. Then you could have grounds for a false advertising suit.
Toshiba is a crap company to deal with anyway - They tried to sell me a$7000 laptop with five dead pixels on the screen and said it was "normal". I bought a thinkpad instead.
Forget buying Toshiba, they are sold by assholes.
Vote with your wallet, and simply don't buy from companies that win't let you unbundle MSoft products.
I have a TECRA 700. Linux installed without a glitch, and automagically recognized the PCMCIA
controller. Video was supported by X. I even did
a network install...
Heck, shutdown even stop the machine...
I agree. This really doesn't indicate the presence of a tie in sale. This is a case where Toshiba isn't living up to the EULA, not MS. Since MS didn't sell you the product, they are under no obligation to pay you back. If you get a bad package of cookies from the grocery store, you don't return them to Keebler, but to the store from which they were purchased.
C'mon, we can yell and scream about the horrors of MS all we want, but in this case, they're not guilty of anything.
No it's not. Toshiba is saying you can't buy a computer (from them) without Windows on it. Back to the cookie analogy from above, if the A&P doesn't carry Toll House, Keebler isn't necessarily a monopoly.
I had to install NT and I got an immediate refund for the Win95. Granted, only $89, but still it did come in two weeks and they were polite about it. I know two people who installed OS/2 and one who installed Linux who got the same refunds in the same time period. IBM will refund, they will be pleasant about it, they don't require impossible proof, and they do so fast. And in all of these cases we are talking about individual boxes purchased by indiciduals, so there was no bulk-order leverage. IBM just did it.
I worked at Computer City for three years, and I always remember those Toshibas having the labels on them.... the computer *itself* is wrapped in a plastic bag and sealed with the label.
The official M$ EULA booklet is bundled separately and can be read *before* the computer packaging is opened: in fact that's what the label on the computer asks you to do.
Just my $.02.
SuperDuck
rdanneskjold@hotmail.com
It used to be that automakers put radios in cars, and you couldn't get a refund if you wanted a different radio in your car(sound familiar). The govt (U.S.) decided that they were two seperate products and made it illegal. Now, if you don't want the radio, or want to put a different radio in your car, the manufacturer has to refund the cost of the radio to you. The same thing will happen with PC's if enough users make a fuss about it.
Not having an intention to honor written offers is an industery standard. Caldera even does it! If the Linux community was really interested in seeing written offers being honored then they would be outraged at the claim that OpenLinux 1.2 provides Netscape Communicator under GPL (in the product description under Internet Clients and Servers). Does Caldera actually have ANY intention of honoring this product description?? Heck, they won't even release their own WebSpyder under GPL!
Oh, and for those your that have payed out $199 for quarterly maintenance hoping Caldera would follow "somewhat" closely their tentative quarterly CD update, Caldera REALLY REALLY has NOT forget about you (despite that they have STILL forgetten to update the maintenance page to list OpenLinux *1.3* as the current release -- hmmm... they are going to keep my Linux installation up to date but they can't even update their web page??). The Jan 1st release REALLY well be coming out towards the end of Feburary just like all you people short $200 expected... right? If you want it sooner, you can fight their FTP site's message:
*** Sorry, the maximum number of users has been reached.
just like everyone else who did NOT get taken for a $200 "maintainence update" ride. If you do get in that you can feel free to download the 73Megs of patches that would have appeared on a January updates CD. Oh, but there has been another 9Megs since January 1st and some KDE *PRE-RELEASE* updates. Since Caldera delayed the Jan 1st maintaince release, you should be able to get those updates too! Now aren't you glad they haven't gotten you those 73 Megs of patches on time?
If even Caldera can lie in product descriptions and fudge maintaince update releases (oh, I already have my MS TechNet CDs, right on schedule) then why can't MicroSoft? Caldera has stated that they want to market Linux as an "Enterprise" OS and have proven along the way that in doing so they can treat the customer just as rotten as MS. So with a Toshiba your stuck with a useless OS, well, I know where you can get a useless maintaince update on a Linux distribution to go with it. Dual-boot the results of two "enterprise" companies for twice the fun!
The only thing that's going to force Toshiba (or
any other hardware vendor) to break ranks with
Microsoft is market force. DON'T BUY YOUR LAPTOP
FROM TOSHIBA, for Christ's sake. Buy it from
VA Research or someone else who is willing to not
charge the Microsoft tax.
I think that if you buy a computer that is
advertised as coming with a Microsoft Operating
System, and then the computer arrives and it
requires you accept it with the computer then
you don't have much to complain about, although
I won't dismiss that you could probably make a
federal case out of it. However, what you need
to do, is ask up front: can I get it without an
operating system, or better yet: can you include
a copy of such-and-such Linux distribution disks
with it please? If they say you must buy Windows
with it, then you CAN make a federal case out of
it. Just don't get on TOO high of a horse if you
knew it came with Windows and you didn't ask up
front. The guy in Australia who got a discount
asked for no-Windows to begin with and I think
that makes a big difference.
Keep in mind that the EULA only permits *ONE* copy to be made for archive purposes. Several businesses don't trust a single backup and will do a "son, father, grandfather" complette backups that results in *THREE* copies being made (possibly throw in one more additional copy for off-site backup). MS lax enforcement/following of the EULA has actually worked to the advantage of the majority of customers. If MS actually tried to strictly enforce the EULA as it is currently written, I would doubt that MS will be accepted in the business place.
A good attack on the MS-EULA would be to declair a date that everyone calls 800-RU-LEGIT to report any company that they are aware of that makes additional copies for son/father backups or for offsite backups.
Too late. I already got thrown out of CompUSA for insisting that they honor a warranty on a 1 month old Macintosh G3.
Their idea of customer support is to take the customer's money and support their business. It doesn't extend to the customer at all.
Why "boot a DOS floppy with a burn-in program"?
The testing program could be left on the disk drive by the disk testing/initialization devices. And there is no need for DOS; the engineers can use whatever OS they want for the testing program.
For that matter, they could initialize the disk with two partitions, one bootable with their test program, and LILO as the boot loader with auto-start on the test program. The test program can rewrite the LILO config when done so it will no longer be autobooted, or it could give the customer (you) the choice of what to do after purchase (turn on power and it runs a test in front of you).
Of course, they could also leave one or several copies of free OSes on the disk in case you want to try them.
Usually the EULA includes legal disclaimers and additional "agreements" that restrict your rights as a consumer above and beyond the protection afforded to the software by regular copyright law.
The shrink-wrapped license agreements have been an attempt to fraudulently force these agreements on consumers without their express consent, and it's about time that they were challenged and stopped.
I understand that MS requires OEM's to pay a per-processor fee for the right to sell pre-bundled software, but I assume that they don't charge per-processor for selling the boxed version. Sooo, allow the purchaser choose or opt-out of purchasing Win 95. If they choose to use it, retailers could offer to install the software for free. This would require a little more work on the part of the retailers, but it would befriend the Linux community, and beat the MS tax.
Of course, If I'm completely wrong about this, let me know.
-- Adam Schumacher
cybershoe@mindless.com
N.A.R.T. #009
P.W.T.T.K.S.S.S.T.H.U. #001
Some credit cards may offer you a "consumer protection plan", where if you dispute a charge for specified reasons (I'm not sure how broad), then you may be able to decline charges through the credit card company.
I repeat: Check your credit card customer agreement before trying this at home.
If this is the case, then the handy thing is that the payment dispute is between your credit card bank and the vendor. Simplifies the hassles.
Things may not go completely smoothly, and you stand a good chance of fscking up your credit record by trying to pull a stunt like this.
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Ok, so return the unit to them, force them to remove Windows, and get the refund. Since it's still in the original packaging, that makes it impossible for them to prove that you used the unit (or Windoze) at all.
Isn't that normal for an M$ OS?
Not a lawyer, and a bit scattered there.
---
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
The EULA is a Microsoft agreement. I don't see where Toshiba fits into the equation except as a reseller. It seems to me that they would not have the authority to unilaterally modify the terms of acceptance of the agreement on behalf of Microsoft.
Are our laptops toast?
-- Eric
(Linux Hardware Solutions)
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Not that I'm starving, mind you, but I'm glad that not EVERYBODY builds their Linux box from scratch!
What gets me is people who claim to be Linux fans who would rather get a box from Dell or Toshiba and bitch about it rather than get a box from VA Research or LHS that they KNOW works with Linux...
-- Eric
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
but rather than satisfying those who don't want Windows on their machines and giving them choice, the manufacturers are searching for ways to FORCE the public to buy Windows.
:| You gotta smell money!
C'mon lawyers, help us out here.
All we want is the ability to buy a machine with OS's other than Windows preinstalled or at the very least, a machine without an unwanted OS and it's price forced on us.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Posted by HolyMackeralAndy:
Roll your own, I say.
Posted by SmashPumpFan:
Isn't Toshiba doing what Microsoft used to do... trying to bundle IE4.0 with Win95? If people are not going to use something it should not be forced on them, and Toshiba should take note.
Posted by LOTHAR, of the Hill People:
Being a simple caveman, I am not unaccustomed to modern society's complex laws and way of life. But it does seem natural that OEM's do not have the permission to modify the terms of Microsoft's EULA for Windows. The terms of acceptance are explicitly stated in the EULA and, I (with my tiny unevolved brain) believe that the Microsoft EULA overrides any EULA that an OEM might try to append. By distributing a Microsoft product (oops, license), the OEM implicitly agrees to support Microsoft EULA.
Then again, this may be just a pile of mammoth dung
I have been avoiding Toshiba equipment ever since they sold the milling machine software to Russia. That has cost the US billions of dollars in developing more sensitive equipment to hear the prop wash.
For those who have no idea what I am talking about... A decade (about) ago Toshiba sold top secret software (US developed) to Russia that permitted silent propellors to be milled for their nuclear submarines.
Up to that time, the Russian subs were so noisy that it was easy to track them anywhere in the oceans. After Toshiba sold the milling machines and the software then it was much harder to track them and much easier to lose them in the oceans.
For that reason, I will never purchase nor accept as a gift anything with the name Toshiba on it.
I also use my influence not to allow my company to purchase them either.
Toshiba did it for the money....
Sanat
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
Go down to CompUSA and take the check that you pay for your equipment with and wrap it in a brown paper bag and seal it. On the outside, write "BY OPENING THIS BAG, YOU AGREE THAT THE AMOUNT INSIDE IS EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN THE AGREED UPON PURCHASE PRICE OF THE EQUIPMENT BEING PURCHASED". Make sure you write the check for $1. On the back of the check write "Possession and presentation for payment of this check indicates your agreement with the conditions stated on the sealed packaging it was delivered with. These terms are NON-NEGOTIABLE."
When CompUSA refuses to take it, tell them "Well why would you ask me to agree to the contract inside your box that I have not read when you wont agree to the contract inside my bag that you have not read?"
That should make a nice public scene
If you can read this message, your threshold is too low.
Have a friend's young child play with the pretty new box with that wonderfully crinkly plastic. Call Toshiba to return the software. When they tell you that opening the plastic accepts the software agreement, point out that a three year old is not legally able to accept a license or enter into a legal agreement (you could even magnanimously waive that, and allow that they have no obligation to give the child a refund, but you still want yours).
Alternatly, unless the laptops ABSOLUTELY must be used now, return the whole thing as they suggest. There's nothing like seeing product coming BACK to ruin the accountant's day.
Windows, if it's so great why do they have to legally trick people into accepting it?
...and their laptops are really nice. Guess I'll buy another brand now.
That makes sense. Customers refused the license agreement so they shipped back the OS without shipping back the hardware. Microsoft's solution: make usage of all computing hardware contingent on using Windows. Is it still okay to use the bathroom if I don't use Windows?
I couldn't find the discussion, but you can read the EULA itself, if you like. The definition and the refund information is in the first paragraph.
The essential difference, of course, being that the Windows EULA explicitly tells you that you are entitled to a refund if you don't accept its terms, and even tells you who to contact. Furrfu.
--
W.A.S.T.E.
W.A.S.T.E.
Oh, I see.
I'd suggest we have a contest for Most Creative Means of Accepting the EULA. Meanwhile, I predict that Windows Refund Newsletter Issue #4 is going to have fun with this one!
Rick Moenrick@linuxmafia.com
Here, "product" does not necessarily mean "software product", which is how some people are trying to define it.
The EULA's I've seen say it the same way. You are entitled to a refund for the PRODUCT you've purchased, which in these cases is the computer SYSTEM (hardware + OS + bundled software). You're not buying just the hardware from these companies, you're buying the complete package.
The EULA applies basically to the OS/software, but there is no provision for getting people refunds for ONLY the software component of their bundled system. The wording might seem ambiguous, but I believe, from a legal standpoint, it's in the vendor's favor, not yours.
The fact that vendors have been providing refunds is simply their way of taking the most cost-effective route. Taking this issue to court is going to be too much of a hassle (and would be expensive). It's far, far cheaper for them if they just send a dozen people refunds for the unused OS. I wouldn't be surprised if the vendors never even pursued a refund for the unused licenses from Microsoft.
Though don't get me wrong, there may be variations of the EULA that have provisions for getting refunds for ONLY the software component of the product. I'm also not a lawyer.
Right, but read it with a legal eye. The last bit of that paragraph mentions that you can return the "unused product(s)" for a refund. If they intended that to apply to the software, they would have used the previously defined "SOFTWARE PRODUCT" (note the caps). Since they're not doing that, "unused product(s)" does not necessarily refer to the software/OS. It refers to the "product" (the thing you bought: the PC + OS + bundled software). I think a lawyer would be able to comment better, but I'm reasonably certain that this is how the EULA was meant to be interpreted.
So call the computer company and ask them for another copy of the legal documents so you don't have to open your box. If they refuse this, they're just shifty bastards and you should buy elsewhere anyway.
axolotl
Well, OK....yeah...but at least it tells you it's going to crash.
dylan_-
--
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
I hate to say it, but this is not specific to Toshiba, Microsoft, or the computing industry. You don't usually buy everything in parts, and if you want to buy an preassembled product, you have to take everything that comes with it -- no refunds.
Can I buy a car without a radio? Maybe, but probably not easily. I sure as hell can't buy any car I want and tell them to refund me for the radio. Or buy a TV and return the remote control? Or buy a portable CD player and return the headphones?
...not for proving your point.
Yes, I can buy a car without a radio. I did just that four years ago. Why? None of the factory installed radio/tape/CD-players provided satisfactory performance at a reasonable price. So, I said no to the radio when I ordered the car and installed a radio from a third party. The cost of the standard radio was subtracted(refunded) from the total cost of the car.
Sound familiar?
Can I buy a TV and return the remote? Yes, if the remote is defective, unsatisfactory, and/or not covered under the warranty that is offered with the rest of the unit. You can also get a third party remote.
Sound familiar?
For those that claim that the bundled os is a part of the computer, note that there are different warranties for the hardware and the software. The hardware explicitly states that it will work for x amount of time and what coverage is provided by the warranty. If the software(like the BIOS) is an integral part of the PC, then the warranty will be the same for it. The warranty for the software is explicitly different and states as a matter of fact that the software has no warranty and is not even expected to work. This makes the software defective, unacceptable, subject to return, and separate from the hardware.
Can I buy a portable CD player and return the headphones....
I think that you get the point.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
I picked up an old Toshiba 2400CS (DSTN colour with onboard SCSI (!), 486 w/ 320 MB/8MB). I was anticipating headaches getting it to run Linux, but I found some Linux-on-Toshiba web pages that had Linux replacements for the Toshiba hotkey utilities, XF86 config files, etc. It's all working wonderfully under RH4.2. The hardest part was making it recognize my IBM "Home & Away" (ethernet + modem) adapter during the install so I could mount the CD over NFS. But the diagnostic messages were clear, and I just changed the signature in one of the PCMCIA config files to match the one my card was reporting (apparently there are slightly different models of the card) and I was off to the races.
With very minor tweaking, I now have APM support (init 0 powers off, the LCD and backlights shut down when not in use), the hard drive spins down/up appropriately, I have visual hotkey feedback, my eraserhead pointer (and external mouse!) work properly, the modem and network connection are working, X works, etc. etc.
Couldn't be happier! Now if I only had a bit more RAM...
A lot of people seem no to like this because of the viewpoint that they dont like the fact that the software is being deemed part of the computer - what you're forgetting is that you're already doing that - point in case BIOS code and video driver firmware for example. These are pieces of software that are just as important to the running of the computer, and also removeable/replaceable. The only difference is that you dont have to explicitly accept an EULA to use them. When the Open BIOS project gets somewhere will you all be returning your EEPROMS to award for a refund? The best solution is to ignore all the crap and either buy machines which dont bundle MS software, or to build your own.
~Pev
But typically car dealers give you a choice of radio. If you don't like the radio in your car, they'll put in your choice of radio. If it's a more expensive model, I'm sure they'll charge you for it. But the point is that you have a CHOICE.
--
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
http://www.muppetlabs.com/~reaper/laptop/p top/
Seems to run OK.
FWIW, this page has lots of laptop links:
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/kharker/linux-la
Some people (including me) really hate Track Pads and would prefer a trackpoint. (aka eraserhead) Unfortunately, IBM and Toshiba (and some Winbooks) are the only laptops you can get them on these days...
Although IANAL, those of you familiar with commerce law, will note that there is already
and "out".
Every purchase comes with an effective terms and conditions (Ts&Cs) usually in barely legible print
on the back of a the order printed by a dot matrix printer or in microprint at the bottom. The Ts&Cs
say things like how you will pay, how it will be shipped, and stuff like you can't ship it before
September or if you don't have it in 30 days, I don't want it(mainly legalese).
The uniform commerce code (UCC) specifies that the purchase order or acknowlegement with the latest
date determines the Ts&Cs.
The rule is simple, you send an order with Ts&Cs. The company either accepts these Ts&Cs or
modifies them with a order acknowledgement with new Ts&Cs.
If you order a computer, just put your own Ts&Cs. In your Ts&Cs, you can put things like I want a
refund for M$ stuff, or I want to run Linux on it. If the company sends you back an order
acknowledgement with their own Ts&Cs. If you don't like their Ts&Cs just REJECT the order.
If the company doesn't send you an acknowledgement separate from the computer, just REJECT the
shipment if it has different terms.
According to the UCC if you accept the shipment, you automatically agree to their Ts&Cs (including
any term like you have to use M$ sw).
However, if you REJECT the order, and they ship it anyways, you have no responsibility for it.
Just tell the FEDEX guy you don't want it. They can't even bill your credit card.
Looks like a good reason not to buy Toshibas.
>if jackasses could fly this place would be an airport...
Dealers can roll their own with whatever OS they want. This means the small dealers, not just the large corps like Toshiba, Dell, Compaq etc. You might even find some dealers willing to sell you the barebones laptops that they can get, or at least sell you one complete, but with no OS. I know because I have been a small computer dealer as a second job for 8 years, and have several different sources for barebones laptops.
Sounds to me like a good reason to quit buying Toshiba Laptops.
These days we dont really have to deal with companies that dont act like they want our money.
I started with nothing and I still have most of it.
IBM's Thinkpads also have a similar sticker on the plastic bag the computer comes wrapped in.
Yup. I unboxed 150 TP770's. Each and every one of them had the sticker.
Of course "bad memory" matters to Windows! It's just that Windows users assume that crashes caused by bad memory are due to Windows bugs, and don't realise they are a hardware problem.
I'm no American, but he seems to be bad news, right? I suppose he will make minched meat out of Toshiba...- ------------------
-------------------------------------
UNIX isn't dead, it just smells funny...
-------------------------------------------------
UNIX isn't dead, it just sme
Let's try this again.
Here at work, I've been noticing a red sticker across the power supply connector on Dell's. It basically says the same thing, "By removing this sticker you agree to the license agreement of all software installed on this machine." Of course, this is kind of crappy and very dishonest of the manufacturer.
It figures.
However, I was told by someone a few days ago that the EULA isn't even valid in Britain - you can't force someone to accept something before they have read it.
Dunno if that applies here. It doens't sound legal, but IANAL.
Regards,
Regards,
-scott
Actually, that's incorrect. There have been several court cases over the years that have established pretty much unambiguously that customers are not required to buy things they don't want.
The car radio is a classic example (particularly when FM radios started showing up). When car manufacturers started including radios in their vehicles, customers complained because the radio was of low quality and overpriced. Many people wanted to install after-market radios. But the manufacturers and dealers said, "Sorry, it comes with the car." Several cases later, courts reaffirmed the consumer's right to choose what they want to buy, and pay for only that.
The wrinkle here is that, if the shrinkwrap "agreements" are to be believed, a sale is not taking place. Therefore the consumer doesn't enjoy the protections accompanying outright sales. You're entering into a contract, which lifts you out of consumer retail sale law and into the hideously twisted world of contract law. All your rights and remedies are spelled out in the contract; anything not in the contract is Your Problem.
As I've been saying for years, this is evil. Shrinkwraps raise Caveat Emptor to what I regard to be unreasonable heights. (And... Why not? Here's a link to my editorial again.)
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
You can't accept 'parts' of an agreement without the permission of the other party. Usually this means both of you initialing (in hand writting with a blue or black pen) the part that is struck.
(Yes I work for NSI. No I don't pretend to speak for them since they don't pretend to speak for me.)
One suggestion from that article: Before opening the envelope with the floppies, take the "agreement," get a pen, and draw a line through all the bits you don't like. Write your initials next to any and all changes you make. Do not strike out the phrase that reads, "By using the software, you indicate that you have read, understand, and agree to be bound by the terms of this agreement." If there's a clause forbidding changes unless signed by an authorized company representative, strike it out and initial it.
This process of striking out words and phrases and initialing them is in fact the actual, legally-approved method of making amendments to a contract (for such changes to be binding, the other party would be expected to also initial your amendments to indicate agreement, or offer a counter-proposal. This is all part of the negotiating process).
etc....
My brother-in-law bought a Digital laptop, and promptly wiped the harddrive to install Linux (he didn't pursue any refund)
He's a Linux newbie, so it was slow going, and I helped him get stuff set up, recompiled the kernel to support APM, etc.
This thing came with a Winmodem, but there's an option to get a NIC+Modem combo. But, to get it, you have to send it back to the factory for installation (because the jacks are integrated into the back of the laptop, which is kinda nice.)
So, he decided to cough up the $300 or so to have it installed, and sent it to be serviced.
When it was returned, his hard drive was wiped out, and a fresh install of NT was on it.
He just said "oh well" and started re-installing Linux, but I would have raised hell!
Is this standard practice for factory service? Why would they need to wipe the hard drive to install a NIC? I suppose they couldn't test it otherwise... but they could have swapped HDs to test, then re-installed his original...
We NEED a linux-friendly laptop vendor.
I've thought of doing this. I'd be willing to put up a website that featured a list of Linux/OSS hostle companies. Problem is I would have to find a place to host it. I was thinking about Geocities or something. My ISP allows webpages, at $5 for two megs.
I think I need a new ISP.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
I must say, that would be interesting...most resellers (ie, Future Shop in Canada) charge a re-stocking fee if you return a computer. Some less-reputable retailers even go as high as 15% of the purchase price. (OUCH!!) However, it might just be worth it to take the laptop back, in the bag, and say "I can not agree to the EULA if I haven't read it. Please open the bag and read it to me." Then, say, "Nope. I don't agree with that." That way,
1) You didn't open the bag. (the retailer did),
2) You did not agree to the EULA (and have a witness)
3) The retailer MAY decide to refund you your money. (Not LIKELY, but it's possible.)
4) If #3 doesn't happen, you can ask the retailer to witness you boot the machine with your trusty Linux boot disk and fdisk away. You can now return your Windoze CDs to Toshiba guilt-free.
Of course, IANAL...But that SHOULD work...
"If at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer"
"What do you mean, invalid parameters? 9000Gigs of RAM and it can't answer a simple question!" -- Earthworm Jim
Or, as one of my profs once said, "To assume makes an ass of u and me."
"What do you mean, invalid parameters? 9000Gigs of RAM and it can't answer a simple question!" -- Earthworm Jim
I think your analogy is off base. It's more like
buying a car and being locked into an insurance
policy to go with it. "Yes you can buy this car
from us but only if you pay for this policy from
XYZ insurance company. You can almost buy another
policy if this one doens't fit your needs but you
can't buy the car with out it." It's absurd right?
The car needs _a_ insurance policy to run (more or
less) but it doens't need _that_ insurance policy.
So your locked into a deal you don't like and don't need
... with eskimo chains i tatto my brain all the way...
While I do agree with you, they don't seem to want Toshiba to config the computer "to your exact specifications". They want Toshiba to honor the EULA, which states quite clearly that if you do not agree with the terms of the license you should return the unused software to your vendor for a refund. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know the legalities, but I think you misunderstand the desire of those posting here.
They may just want the option of buying a Laptop without Windows installed. That SHOULD be a choice. They would have LESS work to do since there is no software to install. Just boot a DOS floppy with a burn-in program to make sure the hardware works and box it up. They DO burn them in, I hope. Yes, it changes the assembly line somewhat, and adds what ammounts to another product to thier line. But it wouldn't have to be done much. This would be great for customers, however, I agree it is Toshiba's decision.
Personally, I will not buy a laptop simply because I can't get arround the MS tax and I cannot just buy parts and build one, like I can with my clone desktops. For me, it would be a toy though, my portable needs are well served by my Palm Pilot. That may change in the future though, and if I can't get a new one without the MS tax at the very least, I will buy a used one to offset the cost.
well, they could tape it to the outside of the plastic bag. then they could avoid us big, bad Linux types coming after them asking for $$ back for their crappy OS.
(this is even more pathetic for me to complain considering that I am running a dual-boot system, but only use 98, since too many Linux things don't work)
VA research sell good linux laptops but they're a bit pricy. Linux hardware solutions sell laptops at a fairly decent price.
Cheers,
Elflord
I have nothing but praise for the Libretto. Pity I bought it so long ago, or I'd be fighting for my refund on the fifteenth. Even more of a pity that Toshiba is burdening such good hardware with such a worthless OS (and that annoying little windows key, but that's another rant).
You aren't buying a computer, you are entering a contract. There is a huge difference. For all you know, the contract you enter sight-unseen could require you to forfeit all copyright on work you create with it to MS. You can't tell.
This, in a nutshell, is why it's illegal. You really, really, *really* need to read contracts before agreeing to them, as they can make you do almost anything.
As for this 'car without a radio', that's totally ilrelavent (sp?) to this. Frankly, I'm pretty certain I can sell whatever I want that's legal to sell seperately in whatever combination, unless I'm under a restraining order.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Look carefully, there is nothing that say they do or don't accept it, and certainly nothign that says...so, either a) They haven't accepted it, so the whole things invalid anyway, or b) They already accepted it, stupidly without getting you at the same time.
As a matter of fact, I wonder if you could add clauses. :)
If they have the right to take your money, and then impose a 'contract' on you after the sell, you have just as much right to change it after the sell.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Isn't the basic theory behind opening the bag that you agree to the 'contract' on the sticker?
Well, what's stopping you from crossing out the sticker and initialing it, or just getting the kid across the street to open it, as minors can't enter into legal contracts.
Actually, just give the kid the money + 5 dollars, and let him buy it, open it, boot it up, and click 'Okay' on anything, and then hand it over to you. (This might screw up a warrenty, though.)
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Naw. I got a toshiba p75 laptop that works like a charm. (I cant remember the model at the moment tho.) It actually works much better than when I got it (it had w95 on it). I just wanna replace that toshiba logo with a linux logo. :-)
This sig is false.
I find it interesting that we're being asked to accept a license agreement BEFORE we can even access it to read it.
Hell, why not? They don't give a damn about us. They care about the green in our pockets.
Sigh, yet another obstacle in the path of Linux bliss.
This sig is false.
I like it. I think I might do it. :-) I still have checks that have the 19__ date on them, maybe a good use for them.
This sig is false.
I read an article months ago that addressed this. Unfortunately I don't remember where, but there has been a test case.
Apparently there some kind of uniform commercial code, that has to do with implied warranties, the definition of a contract, and I'm sure many other things. Not all states have to agree to it, and not all states do- it's not federal law, simply an initiative by a bunch of states to regularize their business law and facilitate trade.
"Shrinkwrapped" licenses are a violation of this uniform commercial code. Which means that they're not binding in most states.
Folks, the EULA, while available in the software
during installation is also available in the
shitty little user manual that comes with Windows. It's right under the seal of certification of approval or something. Read this EULA which is NOT IN the bag with the laptop. Disagree with it. Call Toshiba, tell them "I do not agree with this EULA, should I send this shipment of 1000 computers back, or will you be sending me a refund for the Windows software?". Groovy.
If I ran across this bundling, eliminating my OS choice, I would immediately call your state's Attorney General and discuss the legalities of such an agreement. I just don't see, legaly, how such a contract can be binding without consent from both parties. I'm not a lawyer, so check into it!! If there are enough calls, your state may take some action!
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
"We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
Hopefully this isn't just urban folklore: There was a court case I heard about years ago where someone successfully had a ``contract'' thrown out because customers were not actually reading them. The case involved a guy whose car was damaged by a parking lot attendant. The parking garage claimed they weren't liable for damages because of some fine print they had on the back of the claim check that stated they weren't responsible for any damages that occurred while you were parked in their garage. The judge said this was not a valid agreement since nobody reads the back of the claim check and wouldn't know about this loophole the parking garage had tried to create (perhaps they were just trying to discourage customers from suing them). The guy whose car was damaged won his lawsuit.
I wonder if such a decision could be reached regarding these ridiculous EULAs. What's next? Claiming that by reading the advertisement for the computer you were agreeing to pay for Windows?
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
A Microsoft spokesman today spoke on the latest innovation from the makers of Windows:
"For an enhanced customer experience we have integrated hardware into all Windows products. From now on hardware technologies will be an integral part of Windows. Our customers have demanded this sort of convenience."
Imagine if everyone here (OK, everyone with enough leeway on their credit limit) bought a Toshiba laptop, received the thing, then sent it back writing a note saying they disagreed with the EULA, they don't want Windows, only want to install Linux, etc.
Maybe, just maybe, someone at Toshiba will go:
"We're losing a lot of money restocking all these laptops because people want to install Linux. Hey, I've got an idea..."
Actually, I was suggesting to return them BEFORE you cracked 'em open, not ask them for a refund. But, whatever it takes ;-)
But what if I order a year 2000 compliant computer, ie to be Y2K compliant as shipped, and I get a box with Windows pre-installed? Is the computer supplier thereby betting his business on Windows being Year 2000 compliant? What happens if I send the computer back 6 years and 364 days later, telling the supplier that it caught the Y2K bug, only I was too busy to notice it until now. I'd like to see them try to replace that ancient beast.
First Post Bastard :)
No seriously though; how can Toshiba do this without offering a Non-Windows laptop model separately (for less money)?!?
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
You better accept the EULA. By the way does the box have a full unedited version of the EULA? That is a Definate legal issue if not.
Now hang on, wasn't Toshiba the company who issued the original refund?
Has anyone called Toshiba to raise this issue with the EULA / bag issue? I would like to think we're more reasonable then to boycot them over something that may be a misunderstanding. If they really are trying to keep from providing refunds this way, lets let them know we arn't happy. Although, personally, I won't buy Toshiba laptops due to technical reasons.
It certainly would get their attention, but to return something, you typically have to pay S&H, and for something as expensive and even a single notebook, you need to protect yourself with insurance. That's a cost few people are willing to eat, just to make a point.
And I'm sure this is exactly what Toshiba and MS are counting on.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
No, you can't expect a refund for the tape player in your car. You aren't presented with a EULA that explicitly states that you can. These people have purchased a computer, and the EULA that was included with it explicitly stated that they could return the software product for a refund.
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
I have an T3400 Laptop from Toshiba, and it will not support Linux, it won't take the boot floppy and if i try the loadlin way to get it to run Disk Druid Can't see the IDE Interface on it. I have to run W95, and from my experience, Toshiba makes it difficult at best to run a non-Microsoft OS (Even DR-DOS won't run on the T3400 :(
It is a good idea to boycott any company that makes such crappy computers IMHO
A Jedi doesn't drink Coors, a Jedi Drinks Guinness or Bass!
There was a sticker on the copy of Adobe PhotoDeluxe that came with my scanner stating that breaking the seal constitutes agreement to abide by the EULA. Where was this document to which I was agreeing? Only on the CD-ROM inside the sealed envelope! It also would not let me install the software without completing the registration form. It gave me the option of printing the reg info on a sheet of paper that I have little inclination to mail in.
I'm surprised no one has challenged such practices before.
=moJ
- - - - - -
Member in Good Standing,
That's because Dell previously considered pre-installing Linux onto their machines a "custom order"; they'd only install Linux (or HP-UX) onto their boxes for big/good customers & only then if it was specifically requested.
According to a News.com story from yesterday, that is changing (see other related /. article as well)
=moJ
- - - - - -
Member in Good Standing,
I recently bought a customer returned Portege 3010 and it had the same sticker, but it was originally purchased a month ago, so maybe it's not related to the Windows Refund thing at all.
I'm sure MS has been using this time to simply rewrite the EULA so no refund is possible. This doesn't change the fact, though, that they promised a refund on all these old copies and have no intention of honoring it.
Of course, we have to disagree with the license to get a refund. Which part annoys you most? I hate the "no disassembly" part myself. Too bad I already used Windows (to download another copy of Debian) so I'm not eligible...
PedXing
I just spoken to a friend of mine (who happens ro be a lawyer) and he confirms that Toshiba could not enforce this unless the full EULA is visible on the outside of the item affected, in this case, the plastic wrapper around the laptop.
:)
Methinks this would be laughed at a lot in Britain. As for boycotting Tosh? - their laptops are shite anyway
Martin Brooks / Slayer99 #linux / UIN 2178117
What is important in this Windows refund idea is the movement. It's loud enough and causes trouble to both OEMs and Microsoft. According to the EULA we have to return the software product to get a refund if we don't agree with it.
Let's suppose Microsoft rewrites the EULA and removes everything about the refund. It doesn't look good, a lot of people will protest loudly and the court case may be affected.
I can just see two "good" solutions for Microsoft:
1. Let people return Windows for a refund and pay with a smile on your face.
2 Don't force OEMs to bundle Windows.
Let's face it. Microsoft can easily pay for all the refunds. It's no big deal and they could still continue to bundle Windows for dummies that don't know of any better. And it could even be good PR.
Perhaps it's time for a list of manufacturers to boycott and the related list to support.
Isn't this a bit like saying "You cannot read the legal document in your hands until you have signed it." ?????
Damn, I've always like Toshiba's notebooks...
This little sticker is placed on all new computers that come pre-installed with Windows on it, not just toshibas. I worked in an MIS dept for quite some time and personally I have seen them on NEC's, HP's, Toshibas, Dells, Gateways, and Microns. It always says the same thing. It has not just appeared in the last few months, it has been there for at least the last 3 years.
As a Linux newbie, I managed to load Slackware Linux on my Toshiba Tecra 700CT (cheating a bit by using Partition Magic to set up the dual boot with the pre-installed Windows 95). The current sticking point is figuring out the XF86 file to get my mouse to work. But I truly believe I will get this to work!
Don Knutson, diknutson@cbs.com
You guys have, in effect, boycotted Toshiba for getting the info to make excellent boat propellers.
How do you contrast that with the ideals of OSS? Should information only be free to people we like? It should be obvious that any hostile power running their military computers with Linux will certainly have an advantage over the M$ using countries (Including the U.S.)
********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
Isen't it true that Microsoft Rules the world and no person on earth would ever deny they OS?
pfft. Disgusting.
according to the US Uniform Commercial Code:
1. You have the right to inspect the product before you accept it. - UCC 2-606(1)(a)
2. If it is impractical for you to inspect a product before you take it home or to the office, then you have the right to inspect it there. -
UCC 2-606(1)(b)
3. If the product doesn't conform to the contract, you may:
- reject the whole
- accept the whole
- accept any commercial unit or units and reject the rest. - UCC 2-601
These shrink-wrap "licenses" are in direct conflict with your legal rights under the UCC, which is why the SPA is working so hard to revise the UCC. But until they do, they haven't a legal leg to stand on.
When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
I'd like to see the DOJ make a case for tying, which is illegal. You can't be forced to accept one product (Windows) as a condition of acquiring another (the hardware).
I'm quite sure that Toshiba didn't do this to make things more difficult for you. They probably wanted to make the installation process easier for Windows users.
As a consumer, your opinion matters to companies you buy products (such as expensive laptops) from. Let them know you are dissatisfied with this new 'convenience' and inform them that you will return the laptops if they do not allow you to receive a credit for the Windows installation which you do not want.
If they are still uncooperative, simply return the laptops to Toshiba and buy from another brand. NEC for instance makes rather high quality laptops, and they do not come in EULA-sealed bags. There are also companies that will sell you laptops with Linux preloaded rather than Windows. Look into it, vote with your dollars.
-Jared