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Linux on CNN Tonight
Thank my mom for this one: tonight on CNN's CNN/Fortune program,
there will be a story about Linux. You can read about the show here.
For those of us on the east coast, it will air at 10PM. Don't know about
other time zones. From the promo, it looks as though the piece will be positive, and possibly
oriented a tad towards the (potential) investor.
Umm.. .your one to talk, if you dont like it, code for GCC.. try and remember ITS FREE!!! and its only as good as you make it!
I really cant stand people that knock free software thats really kick a**.
i cant seem to come up with a sig.
I have a reason to hate Linux.
Description:
I am developing an EDA tool.
It is more than 100,000 lines of C++ code.
I am building it on both Linux and NT.
I am using GNU C++ on Linux and Microsoft Visual C++ under Windows.
When I build it with GNU C++,
it takes me 25 minutes to build.
When I build it with Microsoft Visual C++,
it takes me also around 20 minutes to build.
HOWEVER WHEN I BUILD IT WITH MICROSOFT C++
USING EXPLICIT PRECOMPILED HEADER FEATURE,
IT TAKES JUST 2 (TWO) MINUTES TO BUILD.
Summary: Microsoft - 2 minutes, Linux - 25 minutes.
Microsoft solves my development needs.
Linux sucks.
Maybe I just dont know how to use precompiled headers with Linux GNU C++.
Maybe. But in this case Linux sucks too because
Linux is unfriendly enough to prevent me from
figuring out how to get an information
about GNU precompiled headers use.
Woohoo first post after the CNN spot! :)
Very well done, I thought.
CNN biffed on the Redhat investors though, Intel and Netscape not Oracle and Netscape...
I know, I know, I'm an incorrigible geek. >:)
Cheers.
-- SG
It sure ain't WILLOW BAY. That's way too phony. Any ideas?
...but I didn't know LinuxCare is Red Hat's main competitor. :-)
More screenshots would have been nice, especially showing GNOME with themes or KDE. They should have loaded up a boatload of apps, put them on 4 virtual desktops, and Ctrl-tabbed between them. *That* would have wowed people!
Anyway, it was reasonably accurate. *Probably* the best peice Linux has had on mainstream TV (though I haven't seen any others).
What problems did you have with the PostgreSQL JDBC drivers?
:-( )
I maintain them, and usually if there's a problem, I usually find what's causing the problem.
ErikTheRed (who can't remember his Slashdot password, hence AC
I haven't really seen or heard any "mainstream" non-print media coverage of Linux with the exception of the NPR piece. I'll be watching with my popcorn and beer, for sure.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
A nice refresher for those who haven't yet drawn
/* blah, blah, blah */
the distinction between the preprocessor and the
compiler.
I've already drawn that distinction, however, and
my question stands.
There would _have_ to be dependencies that reach
back to the preprocessor stage, though. Imagine:
#ifdef Heheheh
#define FOOBAR
#endif
#include "duh.h"
int
main ()
{
}
Now, if there were no dependencies on symbols
from the preprocessor, how do you rectify the
situation where something in duh.h depends on
the symbol FOOBAR being defined?
Precompiled header files would be more difficult
in this situation. Perhaps we should start a
technical discussion about this? My email addr
is coreybrenner@hotmail.com, if anyone would like
to yacc (heheh) about this further. I think it'd
be a cool thing to add to GCC/G++.
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Well, we'll just have to watch the real audio feed.
Hmm, the last time I did Windows programming I remember encountering an odd bug..my program was mysteriously segfaulting in a location where no segfault should occur. Reliably. I made no changes to the code, recompiled it, and *it worked*. Of course, finding what was going on was made more difficult by the fact that my debugger would periodically crash (and since in Windows the compiler, editor, and debugger are one, this took down all my work..) And naturally, after 30-50% of those crashes, Windows decided to bluescreen..
I prefer a system where the compiler, debugger are less buggy than my program.
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
http://www.kai.com/C_plus_plus/_index.html
i'll be watching tonight. to see if they only show those red hat boxes like that picture depicts.
if so i'm gona email CNN and flame.
While I have used M$VC++ (yech) of various generations (only because my boss made me, I swear! :), I haven't played much with it's precompiled header stuff. But back in the days of good old Borland C++, I did notice that #defines and such before the #includes did not force a rebuild of the precompiled headers, unless the conditions, definitions, etc changed since the last build. It appeared that it was keeping track of the list of includes, and also all current state of things leading into the includes. Anyway, perhaps it wouldn't be necessary to propogate changes like to mentioned, but just recognize that the "pre-#include symbol dump" doesn't match. I don't know if that made much sense...
Ben Shakal
argo AT sixg.com
--
I thought that they did mention that a lot of Windows software won't run on it. Right around the part where the CEO of RedHat said that they aren't competing for that part of the market at this point. Or something like that--did anyone else catch that part?
KN
I can see your frustration. Cutting just a few minutes can make a huge different on a big STL project.
I don't know why they haven't added precompiled header support to GCC.
I think someone mentioned PGCC has it. I used to compile my kernel myself and it's great but I don't know much about it.
Everything runs much smoother though.
You might want to look into it.
Goodluck.
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
Tried man gcc?
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Sounds like you got a bad makefile buddy. Get your dependencies right and then maybe every time you you type 'make' it won't recompile every file.
Also, there are other compilers for linux other than gcc, but they might cost some money. How much does your C/C++ for Win cost? If you don't have a problem paying for Win software, then you shouldn't have a problem paying for linux software.
What, you want the benefits of linux and all the free software that is available for it, but you don't want to learn how to use it correctly? Damn, you're right, linux sucks!
My question was: "Full builds are slow with Linux but fast with Microsoft. I need to do full builds. Any comments ?"
Actually, you are not doing full builds on Microsoft because you are using something precompiled. Read the gcc man page to find out more about how ld(1) treats class definitions. Perhaps drop a line to a gcc newsgroup.
In short, if this feature was in most compilers since 1992, GNU would support it in December 1992/January 1993 at the latest (but most certainly before 1999). If not, then there is a workaround which makes it just as good. Once again, to find out more about it, consult a newsgroup. Perhaps a college c++ course newsgroup.
cornell.class.cs* would point you in one direction, though i do not know which classes use c++. 519 used to do it, but it is a fall class.
msk15
what the f... i can't f.. believe .... WOW! wtf.
red hat, red hat, red hat, red hat, red hat, red hat, what the fuck is linuxcare? SuSE, caldera openlinux and the bunch all sell linux.
AND RED HAT HAVE THE GUTS TO CALL LINUX "only for geeks?" i thought RED HAT IS ONLY FOR them lamers!
i'm pissed as hell. that's negative press.
"precompiled headers" is what real programmers call compiled object files. I bet GCC is no worse than anything else linking your code. Learn how compilers work before making a complete idiot out of yourself in public. "Precompiled headers" is even a faulty description of what it is. Learn about headerfiles, sourcefiles, objectfiles, libraries, programs, compilers, linkers and how the tie together. Learn how to use makefiles to compile your project in 2 minutes.
In answer to your question yes we sell, use and support Mandrake-Linux. Give it a try if you havn't already done so. It's good stuff!
Take Care,
Nick
LSG
As a user of a S.u.S.E., I find this especially bothersome as S.u.S.E. is ``prettier'' out of the box than Redhat, and would probably attract more newbie users. I don't want to start a distro war; Redhat is a great company with great employees/hackers and great products. But Redhat is not GNU/Linux and never will be!
It's also a misnomer to imply that Redhat is the primary source for Linux. Most people have either ordered CDs from Cheapbytes or Linuxmall or have downloaded it from a place like SunSITE, er, excuse me, MetaLab.
Cheers,
Joshua.
--jon. Postel is dead. May we all mourn his, and our, loss.
I use Quicken/Quickbooks every day. It is nothing more than a flat file with all the fields stuffed into it, plus a file for the category(line item), class, and account lookups.
This should be a snap to duplicate with SQL, and some web pages enhanced with php to do the lookups. The hardest part might be duplicating all the standard reports, but not too hard.
Go get a copy of Q and reverse engineer it. If I get tired of the whining, I might do it myself some evening. The most difficult part would be to write the article to boast about it in LJ.
Good luck with Debian 2.1
Yes, I agree, they should mention issues like these.
On the other hand, I believe there is a "Linux alternative" to every item on your list (assuming you don't really need the games).
Whats so wrong with being stuck at 21? I mean come on, there are worse ages to be.
It was bad timing because it had to conflict with the Grammys and the Juanita Broderick coverage on MSNBC, CNBC, and Fox News. I know I missed it.
Red Hat programmers also have an advantage in that they live and work in the best part of the U.S. to live and work (as documented in many periodical publications). But lest Slashdotters think that Red Hat is the crown jewel in RTP, remember that there is a big blue shadow blocking out their view of the sun. :-)
> I am by no means Mr Compiler Expert, so take it > easy.
Are you the same "Real Programmer" who called me an idiot ?:-)
"#ifdef _HEADER_NAME_H" works against multiple inclusion of the same header file, like this:
A.H
#include "b.h"
#include "b.h"
#include "b.h"
#include "b.h"
It does not help you if you have 20,000 lines
inside several include files which are included once, like this:
#include "a.h"
#include "b.h"
#include "c.h"
and every file has includes as well:
a.h:
#include "a1.h"
#include "a2.h"
#include "a3.h"
Situation becomes dramatic when you use C++ templates and STL because in this case compiler has to instatiate many templates in the internal compiler data structures. That's why it is slow.
i believe that objective-c may actually have implemented something like this, in which case there might GPL code for it floating around, or an obscure option.
__
Scott Draves
CNN is promoting the Linux story all over their network and on Headline news.
There is also a GNU/Hurd system--and for a while the cygwin tools were called gnu-win32. There was also a thread on debian-devel recently about starting GNU/Solaris and GNU/FreeBSD distros. I think the Debian Weekly News has more info..
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
I use VisualWorks Smalltalk on Windows and Linux. My compile times for both are under a second.
Linux, however, provides a more stable platform for running and testing my applications.
Take care,
Jay O'Connor
joconnor@roadrunner.com
Man, the Anonymous Cowards are thick tonight.
I did some development of a rather huge database application back in the days of DOS using Borland C++ 3.0. I also saved a hell of a lot of time with precompiled headers.
This would be a *nice* feature for gcc/egcs. How does one convince the developers, however?
I'm not brightest person in world. But they never say that Linux doesn't run Windows software. I think that's nuts. They are basically saying that Linux is an alterative to using Windows, without saying how much of an alternative. It's like saying walking is an alternative to flying when going from New York to LA. Well sure, but you aint going to get there anytime soon!
My boss asked me why I not upgrade our computers to Linux. I askd him if he cared if QuickBooks not work anymore, or our video conf hardware & software, or ADSL modem connectoin, or Starcraft, Grand Theft Auto, Starseige, or Half-life (after hours, ofcourse) not work no more, would he care? He said he not understand, linux is a "windows alternative" - of course it runs thoughs. "It's not like we are switching to macs." Dumbass.
BTW, don't tease me english bad, I not good at this.
Do a "ps ax" and note what is running on your machine "right now". I do that periodically and note that usually the *only* GNU software running is bash which could be replaced by zsh or something else. I appreciate GNU and there is more GNU stuff on the system than what is running at any one time, but to give GNU special credit and leave out all those other authors is unfair. The *Linux* kernel is central to the OS and is always running and I see no reason to complicate matters for old users, new users, and the general populace with GNU/Linux. Again, I appreciate the importance of GNU in the history of free/open-source software but enough is enough.
A couple of minor factual errors, but overall it was a highly positive piece on Linux. Touched all the right notes to appeal to the suits. Sure, it focused excessively on Red Hat, but the format of the show almost requires that.
In any case, good publicity for Red Hat is beneficial to all Linux distributions because it raises awareness of Linux. I'm sure Red Hat users would be easier to convert to Debian than Windows 98 users would be. I'd be happy to see Red Hat leading the charge into the mainstream, with the other major distributions riding their coattails. There will always be a group of elitists who swear by Slackware (not that I have a problem with Slackware) and bitch about all the "lusers" getting in on the action, but the beauty of Linux is that they'll be free to carry on as they always have.
One other thing about the show: it skipped over many obvious opportunities for FUD. Sure, they mentioned the lack of retail sources for Linux software, but that's a very real concern for 90% of their viewers. Meanwhile, they said nothing about the embarassing infighting that's been sprouting up in the Free Software (or Open Source - I support both terms) community, like KDE vs. Gnome, Red Hat vs. other distros, GPL vs. everyone else, or ESR vs. RMS. I'm hoping that as Linux becomes more visible and mainstream, people will realize that most of these little civil wars are being carried out by a handful of extremists, while the people who are doing the real work are content to contribute to a great product that can benefit everyone.
Derek
Quickbooks works, I use it...well ok I use the dos version but its more y2k compatible than the windows one.
I have heard wine will run quickbooks for windows...any takers on this?
I expected this response.
You are not going to believe but these 2 minutes
INCLUDE precompilation of headers.
I have 150 files (110 C++ and 40 headers).
Without precompilation each file takes 1200 / 110 = ~10 sec to compile.
This compilation time is (I guess) 9 second for STL header template instantiation processing + 1 second for the rest of the code.
That's why build with precompilation takes
10 second for the first file build + 110 seconds for the rest of them (1 second per file).
You can reproduce my results.
1. Create a header like "defines.hpp".
2. Put
#include "map"
#include "stack"
#include "set"
#include "vector"
in it.
3. Put some class and typedef definitions
using STL templates like "stack" or "map"
with your custom classes.
4. Create classes which instantiate STL-derived classes as their data members.
5. Try to build empty C++ file which includes this header.
6. Then try to build not empty C++ file.
Notice very little time difference.
7. Now include this header into 5 or 10 C++ files
and watch my problem raising.
The Linux kernel (much more than 100K lines of code) takes about 5 minutes to compile from scratch on my system. I just have to wonder why your code is so much slower to compile.
Also, I would bet that your dependencies are skewed. You should not need to recompile everything *every* time.
Cool story -- they didn't make any serious errors, told me something I didn't know, and we even got to see Linus 2.0 :-)
I have a number of problems with the above quote but for crying out loud, how long is Linus going to be 21?
Didn't you know that he wrote Linux when he was 13?
Gergo
arr. i dont like to gripe, but i am not your mom and i submitted this story yesterday. do you guys even read the submissions, or do you have a random perl script that 80% of them to /dev/null ...?
I enjoyed watching the CNN show but I didn't like the fact that they only mentioned Redhat. I guess the reporters didn't know much about it but just heard of Redhat.
It's great exposure for linux so I can't complain.
But it would have been better if they mentioned that there's a lot of GNU software and other distros.
john
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
That is not the official Linux. I believe it or not got that box from OfficeMax for free!! It was one of those $39-$39 rebate deals where you only pay for the sales tax and postage stamp. The differenc is the 3rd disk which contains free Linux software as opposed to commercial demos. Frankly I'd rather have the free stuff than a demo
Meet Linus Torvalds, the 21-year-old student in Finland who dreamed up Linux, an alternative operating system for personal computers.
I have a number of problems with the above quote but for crying out loud, how long is Linus going to be 21?
You may be able to realize a great speedup in
compilation times by adding:
#pragma interface
to your headers and:
#pragma implementation
to your code. I don't know how this will inter-
act with templates, though. Doesn't egcs build
a template database like the Sun compilers?
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Really? Can someone confirm this?
Hey, they said that he was 28 years old, what do you want from them?
Linuxppc installs great over ADSL. Finally something to thank PacBell for...
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
CNN re-ran it 4 hours later at 1AM
KN
I agree that when you use precompiled headers with MFC, it does not make so huge a difference.
Because MFC does not use C++ templates
(at least did not used in the past).
However try to use it with STL library. You will see huge compilation time difference because of C++ template instantiation reusing.
They said in the show that he is 28 years old now. Am I the only person that heard this?
must be one hell of a cook!!
Quickbooks runs...I use it in linux...the dos version...(I think the windows version runs too via wine, but have not personally tried it). I prefer the dos version so I can telnet in from home :).
Linux is new to the mainstream, and as such, it's understandable that they use what they perceive to be the most reliable product. As people catch on to the fact that Linux is Linux is Linux, I expect either the market share to become more evenly distributed or that $50 price tag on the Red Hat boxes to drop considerably.
Posted by OGL:
:)
I just got done watching it, and despite being somewhat redhat-centric, this was a great piece of television. Was it just me or were a LOT of the desktops they showed running window maker?
-W.W.
Touche'. Good point. I do use glibc and that had not occurred to me. ;-)
;-) )
The way I look at it, though, is "what's really important, the software or the credit?" If it's the software, there's no need to clamor for attention. If it's the credit, then it undermines the whole premise of the movement. Again, I should say that GNU has been invaluable to the cause and still is. I don't want to trash GNU. But I don't think anyone should be bullied into paying tribute. We are members of the same team and team mates don't act that way. I fervently hope that Linux can avoid the fragmentation that has plagued UNIX over all these years. If I thought that calling Linux GNU/Linux would help matters I would do it, but the important thing is *sharing the same goals*, not placating individual desires for getting the credit. Without a common cause, our cause is lost and I'm not ready to give that up.
Thanks for the observation on shared libraries.
And everyone, please, let's try to work together for a common cause, as much as is humanly possible. (And, yes, "humanly possible" is a *very real* limitation.
-Steve
P.S. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to free/open-source software.
Try posting a description of the problem to comp.os.linux.development.apps or .misc, and you might get some constructive suggestions (if you don't introduce the topic as being evidence that Linux stinks).
I am by no means Mr Compiler Expert, so take it easy.
.h files?
From the reference given above it looks like the slowdown with a large project is the need to parse and re-parse the header files. Why doesn't it work to add the #ifdef _HEADER_NAME_H stuff to the
yeah! your mom's leet!
Sorry, but I have no reason to criticize Linus's beer belly. I put on an similar amount of weight between our first and second children. Guess what? If you're a hacker, and father, and athlete, something has to go. You can't stop being a father without killing your kids (although at 5:00AM, the possibility becomes much more attractive), and choosing between hacking and athletics, well, the athletics went.
But there's hope. Babies don't stay babies forever, and when they get older, while they still need as much attention, you can concentrate it and actually Get Some Exercising in.
-russ
indeed! agree! i was stunned when hearing that RH thinks it's not for "normal" users. WHAT?
maybe it's because RH's gnome crash all the time.
or maybe it's RH's horrifying installation.
or maybe....
Having used VC++ a fair amount years ago, I remember precompiled headers basically being the HUGE amount of MFC dependencies being compiled into a big object. The first compilation of a program is fairly time-consuming, as you're compiling ass sorts of MFC bullshit. The resultant object is usually around 2MB!
So this leads me to believe that what he's saying is that a COMPLETE build of his source, assuming he has the precompiled header, is 2 minutes under VC++ as compared to 25 minutes under GCC. I find this very... improbable. Troll away, lamer.
Yay for Justin's mom.
-
BlackNova Traders
Is drawing attention to that fact that you think Linux sucks what you want. It is pretty obvious that you aren't going to get any constructive help. That's like going up to someone and saying "You are an idiot, help me." Posting this on a mailing list or newsgroup would be a lot more constructive.
Just my two cents.
LoRider
I'm guessing that your code consists of many small source files with some pretty hefty header files. 25 minutes sounds like a bit much for 100k lines. I've encountered the same sort of problem, but with less code.
Though I agree that VC-style pre-compiled headers would be a nice addition to GCC, I think there are ways to work around the problem.
First of all, check your dependencies and try to get rid of nested includes. For a containment hierarchy, I find that using pointers and forward class declarations (rather than explicit instances) is an effective way to avoid bloated headers. I'm willing to bet that many of your source files are including a lot of things they don't really need.
Second, try to consolidate some of your smaller source files. I know a lot of people like to code one file per class, but if you bunch together small related classes into moderate-sized source files (like 1000 lines each), it might help.
Finally, (and this is not pretty), create an alternate build option for linux whereby all your source files are compiled into a single object. This would be the quickest and most effective way to cut your total compile time by a factor of 10. Obviously, this is only an option if you're doing a complete (or major) rebuild.
I know that none of the above is really answering your question that well, but this is what I would try. I'd be curious, myself, to find better workarounds.
Methinks I smell some fish...
Machine differences...
Make file not put together for optimal compilation...
There are ANY number of reasons this could be a problem.
Why not use the same make file and then benchmark it?
Or just keep your head in the sand and continue to complain while your boss replaces you with someone who really knows how to do the job.
Been there, Done that, Sold the t-shirt to the next idiot in line
Can someone put a soundfile of the "their operating systems suck" quote ?
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
No. Object files are a compiled .cc file. Precompiled headers are a compiled .h file. (more or less ;) ). AFAIK gcc doesn't support this..not an issue for me but evidently it is for him. (/me wonders why no-one's added it to gcc yet..)
I've used some Windows compilers. Precompiled headers are nice. I guess that he feels they're essential.
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
Remember, gcc != Linux. Please consider not insulting your target audience next time you ask for help.
--
This signature left intentionally blank.
Starcraft works fine
The original (not BroodWars) ran great for me back when I played it... except for the sound, and (from a posting I spotted on c.e.m.w) that's fixed now.
This was a good article on Linux. It would of been nice to show that more than one company is making some profit of it. Though it was only an article to show that it exists. The Linux people interviewed were protrayed with a good light.
Hope we can see this, or better articles on Linux and other Open Source initiatives.
My dream, to see job advertising for Linux experience or knoledge and next to nothing for Windows 1900.
Iain
Yeah, $0 down and $0 a month is a real burden...
Unless you want a JDBC driver ($2000) it's FREE.
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
Anyone know if there will be a RealVideo stream of it anywhere or anything? Otherwise, I'll have to try and go down to the single TV in my entire dorm that has cable, and see if I can find CNN (although I don't know if there'll be tons of people down there trying to watch something else.. that'd be annoying..)
Let me just take this opportunity to say that I'll be in that area starting next fall, as a
Ph.D. student in computer science at UNC. Woohoo! Untold pleasures await!
Sometime late tomorrow, there will be a transcript and an AVI of the segment from the show for people to download and geek, er gawk at *smile*. Check back to /. for the download site.
check www.cygnus.com! please, don't make large comments when you are uninformed
SAGLE (SuSE A'int GNU/Linux Either)
If you need a "holy-grail" of GNU and Linux, Debian and Slackware are the only choices... But Red Hat is way more in line with FSF philosophies than any other for-profit distribution that I'm aware of.
In case you care, I run Red Hat although I'll probably give Debian 2.1 a spin.
--
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Linux is "new", according to Willow "Hi! I'm Mrs ABC!" Bay
"God" is either pregnant (congrats!), or working on one hell of a beer belly.
MS have tried to push NT, at places that were smart enough to choose Linux. Good luck with that!
The official (CNN sez so) pronunciation for the Tubby Deity is "LINE-us".
Yeah, I know that no other distros were shown (AFAICT), and there was no sign of RMS :), but Robert Young is a fun Face of Linux (as, of course, is the Tubby Deity).
--
--
=8^
I do phone support on compaqs (not for compaq though) and you would be amazed at the number of people who think this.
At least the /. effect won't kill my ability to watch CNN...
:)
... or will it?
Angband kicks Nethack butt. :) So much so, I got my non-geek girlfriend hooked on it... We sit around at night, I read, and she plays Angband... heh.
... could make with this. Woops, well, how about multiple TVs hooked up together to processor a higher video FPS? :-)
For a few bucks, they'd be glad to add PCH support to gcc.
Watched it, recorded it, watched it again! It was great! Yeah, too Red Hat-centric, but wtf. I just LOVED the part about the City of Medina using it to store all the plans for Bill's house on a Linux server (I live in Seattle, just across Lake Washington from Medina). They failed to mention, though, that the City's server runs Caldera, not Red Hat. Can you believe that Bill didn't GIVE them a computer, just to avoid what's turning out to be a hilariously bad piece of negative free press for M$?
:)
Anyways, thoroughly enjoyable. I just sat there grinning and giggling like a fool. Bob Young looks like he's having a ball, too.
Oh, and piss off to all you whiners who complain about the piece. Get over it. It was fun, relatively accurate, it slammed Microsoft, and it described the most basic differences between Linux and M$ (freedom and stability) in ways that Joe Average can understand, even if they've never touched a computer.
how cool - told her to wait a year (runs on winmine & such) then go!
I hope no fudding included.
Posted by DarkYoda:
They slaughtered linux...
they are not even worthy to speak of linux...
~SbD~
Ok this is BS. My company codes a LOT of custom apps. for clients using C, C++ and Ada95. These are easy to bind to GTK. (haven't tried QT but I've heard it's cool to develop on as well)
;-) )
I can say definitively that GNU compiled apps are leaner, meaner and are written in REAL C, C++ (M$ doesn't do Ada much to their demise
Visual C++ etc. is garbage. Way to much proprietary extensions and code bloat. I've had programmers interview that have only used Visual C++ for development and they are amazed that it's actually possible to compile and link from a command line. I hire programmers who know ANSI/ISO coding not M$.
Nick
LSG
And now that I've got PHP talking to Postgresql, I'll be converting our mailing list. (Sybase is way to expensive for the organization).
I think I can finally get rid of dBase. This mailing list was my last non-Linux app. I hope CNN mentions what a great platform Linux is for SQL.
Hooray for that penguin!
hmmm...priorities priorities. CNN or southpark?
He's currently on Linus22pre7
"Linux sucks" sounds like complaining to me.
If you are really looking for a solution you should have said "Speaking of Linux, I'm doing some cross-platform development and I'm seeing some performance problems..."
Well, they didn't really even mention the word distribution. Just that Red Hat was one place to get Linux. They really didn't mention another company. The only other company they mentioned was the newly created LinuxCare which doesn't make distributions only supports them. I think LinuxCare is going to be one HOT company. Can anybody say IPO?
Don't do that!
Why not tell him that if he's willing to run different software that works just as well, and if he's willing to get used to another operating system, that it would work.
If you want Linux to make it you've got to put a little bit of work into it.
But it's very much worth it.
-davek
6th Street Radio @ddombrowsky
I have ran into this same problem with my very large STL project. I have brought up the idea of adding precompiled header support to the egcs group twice and got shot down both times.
Precompiled headers do make a large difference. I can vouch for that. Almost all other Unix platforms I develop on have support for precompiled headers in their native compiler.
My suggestion to you is either to deal with it or buy a commercial compiler for Linux that supports precompiled headers. Also, you may want to look into the -frepo option. This helps compilation and linking of templates. It sped my STL project up from about 25 minutes to about 10-15 (didn't time it lately).
Good Luck.
"In true sound..." -Agents of Good Root
Linux users would be unhappy with an "off the shelf" product, because they have grown use to getting the "latest greatest" version of every application they use by downloading it off the internet. Do you want to walk in and buy GIMP version 0.95 when you can just set your system to download a much newer version while you sleep?
The internet is an integral part of the Linux culture, and it will take time before people get use to the idea that the Internet is also a primary (not secondary) source of software. The linux community knows this, the buisness world doesn't want to acknoledge this.
If linux is to be analyzed by the buisness world, it should be analized in other contexts, not the traditional one. Possable opertunities are things like a publication buisness. I know more people would be interested in buying a monthly "subscription" (for $5 a month?) to the most recent version of the top 200 GPL titles for Linux on CD insted of buying stuff off the shelf. People like Time/Warner and all the publishing giants are the ones who stand something to gain, with thier publication subscription machienary in place... So, analyzing Linux in the "traditional" buisness context is idotic, because linux and gpl software will never be a "New version every two years" market like Microsoft has made for thier OS and software.
They could have the report given by a quadrapalegic Scottsman on a horse and please all.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Very impressive. Although, of course, Redhat seems to be only distribution.
"...their operating systems suck" -Linus
This brings up a good point, in a way. What are
the technical aspects of precompiled header file
support? Is this just a dump of the preprocessor's
symbol table with a dependency lookup, or is there
something more insidious?
I'd not mind seeing this feature in GNU C/C++, and
while I can think of a lot of reasons to not use it,
I can't think of a single reason to not support it.
Anyone want to fill me in?
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Of course there are good alternatives to Quickbooks et al. My partner and I appear to have written our end-of-year accounts in Perl.
hmm, was it just me or did that seem like just one big shameless plug for Redhat???
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GIT d? s: a-- C++++ UL++++ P++ L+++ E- W++ N o-- K- w--- O- M+ V PS+ P
Posted by Skip Franklin:
:)
Whose idea was it to put this on at the same time as Southpark? CNN's schedulers must not watch Comedy Central.
i don't like to gripe, but i suggested this story to cnn over a year ago and they're only airing it tonight. do they even listen to the public? it's not like they get many suggestions for stories, right?! jeez.
Code you seek
will come soon enough;
What was costly will be free.
Although it looks like Linus is morphing into Tux, it was a good presentation.
Remember, this was a business news program, it's not going to feature Debian or Slackware.
Red Hat is hot in the business world and has done a superior job of marketing in the US.
Will
I don't understand why people are so bothered by this. Now I would rather people know the truth as well, but I don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Redhat does a pretty good job of marketing. I've NEVER heard anyone from Redhat claim that Redhat IS Linux, and I've read many of the Bob Young interviews. If anyone want's to contradict that point, I'd suggest that you provide links to back up the point.
I've heard people make this complaint before and they sometimes seem to imply that Redhat is under some obligation to plug other distributions besides their own. I'm not accusing jerodd of this because it looks like he blames society for this misnomer over Redhat. I think what tends to happen is that outsiders who don't know any better, assume that Redhat is the producer of Linux because it is the most visable distribution. I don't think this is through any fault of Redhat. I think that people who get serious about installing Linux generally find out about other distributions early on before they develop any brand loyalty. Personally, I'm a big supporter of diversity, so I think it's great that other distros are out there, and I would dread the day that any single distro completely dominates the market. By that same token, while I'm a KDE user, I highly respect Redhat's decision to support GNOME development. As long as there is choice, we're never gonna be as limited as a windows user.
--
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
...are out there. Read non-gcc, non-egcs, non-pgcc. They cost money, o'course, but you'll get your pre-compiled headers.
Don't remember where I saw them, mind you... but do look into it. (Also ask Cygnus what they'd change to add PCH support to egcs).
I promised that I would never leave my roots and I'm sticking to that so here I am. From the perspective of a company CEO, this was a very positive news feature.
I do disagree with Bob Youngs perspective that Linux is not for the end user yet. Thus far a combination of KDE (or gnome) with Star Office and a good email program is all most people need now days.... The Linux power user still knows how to get to his/her tools and is not restricted from them. I like the way KDE works well with Star Office for the end user effect of ease of use combined with a productive, robust environment.
1999 should be a very good year for Linux.
Cheers,
Nick Donovan
Linux Systems Group
New York
Serious developer?
"LINE-us" is how you pronounce "Linus" in the country they are broadcasting from (USA).
Linux is ready for the end user in an office environment if it is properly configured.
Bob Young, however, was talking about the home user (his mom) and that is something else. The home user needs to be able to walk into a software store and find a variety of titles that suit his needs. Home users are not limited to office and net applications. People are diverse and have diverse needs.
Linux does not have the unusual apps that may be the "killer apps" for many people. For my mom it was a quilt design program, do you have a Gnu version of that? Is there a version of a typing tutor for Linux? Does Gnucash support electronic banking yet? Are there games and educational titles for small children designed for Linux? Can my nephew play Madden 98 on Linux?
Linux smokes NT as a server. Linux is an excellent development platform. Linux is fast becoming the compatability standard for Unix. Linux is ready to take its place on the office desktop. It is not, however, a general purpose home operating system.
Will
I'm in the US. Missouri, to be exact. St. Louis :)
;)
to be precise.
I'd be willing to relocate if... the price is right!
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Just a thought, I have compiled wine on a dual PII 266 and it takes approximatly 10-16 minutes from scratch. Considering WINE is composed of gigantic chunks of Windows and Linux code (most of possible api and some hardware calls of both) it should be one of the longest compiles out there.
What are you building? Do you do a clean make every time? Do you need to do a make clean in order to compile correctly? Is the code 100% ANSI, or are there Windows specific features in it? If there are Windows specific calls in there how are they cross compiled, through wrapper(s) or preprocessor statments? Which is your native platform, and which is the port? Did you know there are other compilers availible for Linux?
Since you have now made this a public thing, I sure many would like to learn from your mistake(s). Why don't you post the makefile and details? I will likely not be able to help you but I am sure somone can.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
Or maybe you're a retard and Linux has NOTHING TO DO WITH GNU. LINUX IS A KERNEL, NOT A COMPILER.
I know that Bill Gates has personally been posting to slashdot.org.
He just cant keep away from the [reply] button.
Cheers,
smithdog
Was what the RedHat man said.
Are we listening yet?
I must have missed this. They said on the show that Oracle invested in Red Hat. That true? I know Intel and NS did, and that Oracle is porting software, but did they make a $$$ investment?
Erik
hey GOD have to code all the time!
Gimme a break. This article leaves a bad marketing-type taste in my mouth. I feel like gagging.
Sure, it's cool that Linux will be getting more exposure, but this crap gives people the impression that RedHat is the only supplier of Linux.
"Red Hat/Linux: Bill Gates worries his Microsoft empire could be toppled by the next "big idea" hatched in a garage. Or, perhaps, in a college dorm.
Meet Linus Torvalds. As a 21-year-old student in Finland, he dreamed up Linux, an alternative operating system for personal computers. And unlike Microsoft's ubiquitous Windows operating system, you can get it free of charge from a company called Red Hat.
So how do they make money from a free product? And why does the number of Linux users keep doubling every year? "
So get another compiler? http://www.kai.com/C_plus_plus/_index.html Sheesh.
Actually, GNU is supposed to be a self-contained operating system, with HURD as its kernel and the various GNU utilities. It just happened that all the GNU utilitities came about without a completed kernel, and so they got incorporated into the "GNU/Linux" OS, as Linux had the kernel with no utilities. I just call it Linux though, because there's no ambiguity (there's no such thing as Solaris/Linux or Windows/Linux [thank god!]).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
My VCR is busted.
Me too! (A bit of aggravation setting up the ipfwadm rules properly, but that was a matter of actually reading the HOWTO) :>
I've been waiting for Red Hat to release version 6.0 before I took the dive and seriously tried out Linux (I had a stint with it before on my P100 using Red Hat 5.0, but felt that version had a few problems that made it more trouble than it was worth). Now, I'm going to pick up a copy of Red Hat Linux 5.2 at the first available opportunity.
Looking forward to the land of stable computing,
Grave
Yep I thought so.
How come you are selling off so much M$ stock?
Could it be that you know the end of empire is at hand?
Cheers,
smithdog