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"Invisible" Speakers
Maurice Boughton sent us a link
to an interesting bit about speakers that you can mount to
your wall to let it resonate as a speaker. You
read more. They're
only like $60 so it might be worth it, although I'm curious
how they sound. Oh, and as for the 6 billion of you who
emailed me to wish me birthday greetings, thanks, now stop!
Great for apartment use, they make the walls vibrate :-) Other than these have been made for many years and sound like crap, a good idea.
If the look of their website is indicitive of the quality of their products, I think I would have to say "No Thanks!"
:P
Not to bash on their web design capiblities of course. But it is a far cry from the professional look of sites such as Slashdot.
> They tend to loose high frequencies...
Isn't it a nuisance when your speaker looses
all the high frequencies and you have to use a
vacuum cleaner and dust rag to gather them up
again?
I remember reading about things like these when I was in high school - and my 25th reunion is coming up this summer.
But just think - not only does the internal damping of your sheetrock kill the higher frequencies, but you also pick up every buzz, rattle, and resonance there is to be found in the lower frequencies. Think of what a nice resonant chamber the space between studs makes for that deep, flat bass response we all love.
> Doesn't a small "m" indicate "milli" as in a
> one-millionth (1/1000000)?
Hey, what's three orders of magnitude between
friends? Or six? Or nine?
Ludwig Van! Ludwig Van!
Check out Martin Logan. They make great hybrid
electrostats with a regular speaker element for
the base. They have a complete Home Theater setup
with rear speakers you hang on the wall, and
a pretty cool but big center channel, electrostat
of course.
/AA
I've seen (in catalogs, not Real Life(tm)) speakers that were meant to be flush mounted into the wall, between the studs. The diaphram is level with the wall surface, and can be painted, or even lightly wallpapered (or so they claimed). They were a hell of a lot more than $60.
Choose:
1.You are deaf.
2. You are fooled by big companies propaganda.
3. Or you work for them.
Makers can fool you with freq. response. ...
They should tell you limits , for example
50Hz-20KHz +- 3dB
Frequency response isn't all.
Dynamic properties of speaker coins does matter.
The enclosure does matter
But the best measurement are your ears,
use them and you'll see...
I think this was posted as revenge for the birthday announcement.
>But audiofiles like listening to these devices >becuase they like the tone, even if it's
> not a true sound.
BULLSHIT
Audiophiles like a neutral and fast sound.
And tube amps can do that , really..
For example single ended with vaccum triode amps
Especially 300B and the family is super
These "speakers" are lame. Poor transmission of high freqs, and muddy sounding lows. Not to mention the royal PITA installing/wiring these.
;-)
Oh, and you're not the first poster either.
Oops, I guess I'm the bozo. :-)
my parents ended up installing car stereo speakers into their walls.
since they are set into the wall, and the grills
are painted to match, they are near unnoticeable, and the walls act as natural amplifiers, and resonate everything through the entire house.
a pretty inexpensive way to do home theater,
and sounds better than most of the stuff that i've heard out there.
BOO!
*throws brick*
*and another...*
Try these.
http://www.gen-tech.com/gen1.html
With these you don't need to attach anything to your walls to get them to vibrate!
Standing waves are eliminated because the "speakers" are now part of the room geometry which now varies while the sound is being generated.
So obviously these wouldn't reproduce HF particularly well mounted inside a wall, but with a nice low-pass filter and mounted to the couch, they might work as $60 tactile transducers...
Anyone remember the bone fone that came out in the late 70's They tried to vibrate your bones so you could hear the music.
>6. High levels of harmonic distortion - ahh, but
>the distortion that tubes produce is *even
>order* harmonic distortion, which is not nearly
>as harsh-sounding as the odd order distortion
>that is produced by transistors. In fact, even
>large amounts of even order distortion (1%-2%),
>do not add significant dissonance to an audio
>signal.
Guess you never looked at the distortion
spectrum of a tube amp. Tube amps produce both
even and odd-order distortion. Sorry. That
didn't stop me from building my own amps with
tubes. They sound great, regardless of what
orders of distortion they produce.
Most people who argue about audiophile
engineering, including audiophiles, have no
clue what they are talking about.
Only someone who has never heard a well designed/powered system using these transducers would be so vehement about them not working. I personally have 12 rooms and a 40 transducer Home Theater, powered by a Sunfire 200 wpc amp, and using 4 RBH tactiles in the floor. You just don't know how incredible it sounds. I know these forums are dedicated to free speach, but ignorance and unwarrented bias is only a sign of intolerance.
Actually, the RSAT has been used for cover applications such a listening device for many years, as well as for sound masking. Nothing works better...ask the Navy, Air Force, Martin Marrietta Corp. and countless Commercial/Industrial users.
Nice ideas, but totally off base. Keep an open mind about something you know little or nothing about. Over 5000 installations prove your hypothisis wrong.
Your facts are wrong,(35 to 17,500 Khz on Gypsum, even better response on Paneling)and installation is much easier than convetional speakers. 90% of the installation is complete before sheetrock ever goes up in new homes, and retrofit only requires that you patch the hole you had to make to install any ugly speaker grill anyway.
yeah....and I bet they use an 8 track player too!
Damark never sold these units. And the walls don't move. Pushing sound into a room via air displacement is not the best way to produce sound, it's only the way most do so because it's the easiest to engineer. A resonating surface causes a cascade effect that disperses frequencies through sympathetic resonation.
What bunk! Like you've done this; that's why you would say such things? I've personnaly installed 4 RSATs on a 3' X 7' x 3/8" glass panel, mounted in a 2x4 free standing frame, and reach 118 db across 30 to 18,000 Khz. without even observing surface distortion. Certainly one could accomplish what you suggest with enough power, and a sine wave signal, but NEVER in the real world.
Pexi-Glass works fine...better than wood, which works better than sheet rock, but not as good as glass. But most mortals cannot decern the difference.
Yes...and he endorses thier use!
Small words from small minds. I'd bet you've never even heard an example of what the RSAT can do. The Mfg. doesn't claim that the product is for everybody, just those that don't have their noses in the air, a desire for value & performance, and the wish that technology not always be "in their face". If the RSAT sucks, then why does almost every Dealer that has used the Sound advance speaker switch to the RSAT when they hear the plaudits that the customers espouse?
Your reffering to Sound Advance spkrs. VERY expensive,($1400.00 a pair) Hard to install, and really not that good sounding. I saw the product in the artical displayed at CEDIA EXPO 97 in Atlanta .. 56 of 'em in a 7 channel configuration. (8 per channel) driven by 4 Adcom amps & a Yahmaha processor. These guys actually built a 20 x 22' room inside a booth, with sheetrock, paneling, chair rail, and a subfloor w/tactile transducers,(Auras, I think)! A few of you seem to be trashing them (You know who you are!)without really having ever heard them. I did, and they blew me away. The Reps there made it clear that a half ass installation will sound just that bad, but with a little care and planning, all but the most critical audiophiles rave about just how good they sound, especially since it's sheetrock and wood that's conveying the sound to the ear. All you 'naysayers' seem to overlook that. Anyway, I lost the Literature I picked up, but now I have a contact No# and I for one will give the product the beneifit of my attention. Why? because I think their an affordable alternative to speakers, my wfe loves the idea, and what I heard sounded different, but as good a almost any of the other speakers on display. (Almost, but close enough!)
As for their Web site design, I think that it was made around 1995 by a WYSIWYG HTML editor. It has that look. Maybe there just too busy filling orders to worry about it. Oh well, it's not the Web site that I'm interested in, anyway. Paul
Obviously you have little knowledge about sound masking. If I read the info correctly, the resonation is spreading out in concentric waveforms across the surface of the wall, and where each specific frequency reaches the length of its waveform, that specific point is where that specific frequency is produced. They stated that the transducers's sphere of influence is around 8'
That seems plenty to accomodate most Bass waves I know of. The bass might not move your shirt or pants, but I'm sure it's plainly audible.
Noise cancellation could/will occur whenever standing waves encounter a surface containing enough energy to suppress the reflective frequencies encountered. Chew on that bait, FishMan.
Whoa boy..... your dead wrong about these critters. You better face it, these transducers do almost everything in a different fashion than you/we all are used to. I called and spoke to this guy, Maurice (Poor Web Site design but he did have a (800) number.) These things have been underlying so many things in industry for so many years, it's incredible. I found Maurice really helpful in answering some of my questions, and more than a few of everyone else's. Whatsamatter, did his product claims really shake your world so much that you've lapsed into the "circle the wagons" syndrome? Funny how someone who has no practical experience can be such an opinionated authority. I was skeptical too, but his answers made sense.
My close to 60 year old audiophile dad (like son like father i guess) had his ears checked recently, he had the hearing of a 20 year old. I think this is the result of a life long of putting his ears to good use, i.e. listening to music on good systems.
just my 2 herz.
you seem to think that "less is more" tho
(youre "audiophile" comments are so wicked i am having truoble moving my digits about in a reasonably coherent manner!)
ELECTROCOMPANIET makes decent sounding transistor amps that dont cost an ear and a leg.
1. Do not do a full range.
- well then point me to the box that does man!
2. Cost to much.
- Put your ass in the know. Some cheap B&W model perhaps...
3. Claim things..
- Thats a pretty outragious claim...
4. Design
- Have you been waring your colored glasses agian.
5&6
Well now youre just blowing out your hole!
What kind of music do you listen to mr. "D"
(ooh, this is fun, audiophile arguments on slashdot, come on ellis, u r so full of it:-)
Do u know your diode from your triode?
Do you love music?
Do you have ears?
Can you carry the heavy load?
Youre a potential audiophile, watch out!
The Department of Mental Heatlh
Have you heard what a good tube system can do?
Its about pure physical emotion (ahem) and not yer little numbers.
Mesa something...what r those, like boomboxes with 18inch woofers or something?
2 ways to go :-)
:-)))
the fun roote : 10way equaliser
the even more fun roote: 10way equaliser from Cello (30k dollars)
Aha, then you havent heard a good toob system have you...?
I on the other hand HAVE. Heard my current speakers (1500 bucks, size of shoebox) in the shop (not like RadioShack, but like a dedicated listeningroom the size of a barn)
with some tube amps i forget the name of and a turntable. Man that John Lee Hooker was in the room! Good trans does this and good toobs do this, and saying one is better than the other is like saying some totally insignificant thing or other.
My system today (10 000 bucks, trans) does not do this. Sigh. Toobs do it for less money with a certain number of limitations that you may or may not be willing to live with. I am mightily tempted by Audio Notes sub 1000buck toob kits.
And whats more(snip)
- toured nationally and internationally with several different music groups, in both musician and technical capacities
- designed and put together several different kinds of upscale speaker systems that not only made technical sense (the math worked out correctly) but more were especially effective solutions from the high-end listening POV
- Assisted in the building of and/or provided QC review on several superior "home" systems based on commonly available components.
But I'm not trying to boast or just flame you back, because you have a point. What the web site says makes some sense -- until you consider the practicality of implementing a system with them. The point you may have missed is that I think this technology is not worthwhile -- by the time you figure the costs involved in the transducers, crossovers, and constructing the damn things into a system within a home, a person could have either bought or built a system that would sound superior in all ways -- and be movable later to boot.This "technological innovation" rears its ugly head every fifteen-odd years.
The first time I saw them was about '65 in "Popular Science" or "Popular Mechanics". Originally, they were designed for car doors [because 8-track music speakers were losing the battle against the overall volume of SSs, GTOs, SuperBirds, Mules with blowers, Cudas, and such].
The fundamental problems for dwelling installation WERE power and media. How much power does it take to vibrate sheetrock at 20 or 22,000 Hertz? LOTS! And, how can you get ACCURATE sound reproduction [20-20,000Hz] from an amorphous, wall-melange of sheetrock, brick, wood, paint, fiberglass, asbestos, dried pizza, pipes, nails, SuperModel posters, bookcases, conduit cables, cola-stains, electric cables, telephone cables, computer cables, poorly-framed diplomas, circuit boards, and, [insert personal collection here]? YOU CAN'T!
Note: When you go testdrive Bose 901 speakers, the room is EMPTY, and, the reflecting wall is covered with plexiglass. Is YOUR room empty, and, the reflecting wall covered with plexiglass? [My 901s, on the top of a bookcase, delivered all their power into the wall, up the main apartment complex load-bearing beams, and, into an apartment three floors up and one apartment over
Unless the developers have some wonderful technical innovation [for $60?], this sounds very much like Silicon Valley snake-oil.
With these following not far behind the "zero thickness" computer speakers, I see a trend strating: every lousy (but peculiar) notion that has ever been turned into a noise-producing loudspeaker - and there have been lots, and far weirder ones than these two - will shortly be making yet another appearance in this new market category.
I can't wait to hear lousy under-sampled or mangled by compression PC audio played back through a latter-day "walsh" system. Those things were bad enough with analog sources that usually had some HF rolloff...
I wonder how much a plasma driver would interfere with one's monitor?
(signed) too lazy to login for this
Let's see...they claim that they can create large volumes of sound without creating high sound pressure levels. Yeah, right. They're the same thing, Sparky! Then they claim that they get the room to vibrate sympathetically and contradict this in the next sentence by claiming that there are no standing waves in the room!
I think these people are bozos.
I quote:
:-(
"DO NOT series two individual transducers together to obtain a 16
ohm load. The amp won't put out as much power, neccesitating even higher volume
setting. Also the first T/D in the series could receive a disportionate amount of the
power before it passes onto the next one in line. Because Amplifiers must, as a rule be
turned up higher than nomally, it is wisest to design a system that plays comfortably
at the lowest possible Impeadence level"
Surely the power is equal between the two T/Ds (which are essentially just voice coils from a speaker rather than any kind of bizarre electrostatic things with funny resistance behaviour) so why would one distort first?
And who came up with the idea that amplifiers are more stable with a smaller load? Why is there no mention of damping factors needed to drive these "hifi" devices? Why is there this fixation on the angle of the volume knob? Perhaps this guy should get a job in a PA company for a bit and _work_ with some amplifiers for a bit
You know it's a good product when they use bright green tables to sell it :-)
Posted by Invisible1:
Have you? If your nails pop out, then your work is pretty poor. And any good installer checks back to see if the wall has been secured properly. he has to...most Sheetrock hangers could care less.
If you have a bad case of loose sheetrock, all it takes is a few more screws and that's history. But in any case, in over 5000 installations I've overseen personally, and a bunch more elsewhere, not on recorded instance of any wall damage, reguardless of content/volume, has ever been recorded. And nails pop out if you slam a door if they are not sank into studs. Plaster walls, Wood paneling, Cultured Marble, (How do ya like that?) even R-Wall(Styrofoam overlaid by Plaster) has been used to great effect.
As for being a crock, how do you know for sure. Are you the authority on the subject. I think not. Keep an open mind. The days of the Inqusition are long gone. Most people don't trash what they don't understand these days. (Do they?)
Posted by Invisible1:
Thanks for the small vote of confidence. Many is the time I've removed existing In-wall speakers, installed the 'ducers, and refinished the old hole back to the original condition of the wall. And beleive me, more people bite on the idea of our cutting a small hole in a wall and then making it dissappear than settling for a Grill. That is if they know of our product. I'm suprised that there are so many narrow minded people out there in who feel it's neccessary to dis something they really don't have a understanding about. The few that have some audio experience I can forgive, for the whole concept seems just too alien for thier minds to accept. That fact keeps many from enjoying our systems. Too bad. But for anybody to flat out state that such a thing CAN'T sound good, or CAN'T possibly work, and that the appearence of the Web Site has anything to do with the validity of the product, smacks of small minds and ignorance.
For the record, I posted my 'artical' as a response to someone, not as an advertisement.
And anyone who has a bone to pick, or a comment to make, good or bad, just call me up for free, the 800 number is on my site. I've spent 22 + years satisfing customers while defending my product from all the 'High End' stores whose business I took away. The harsh comments I've read usually only come from those whose business was lost to Invisible Stereo because they looked down upon the customer, instead of treating him like a Human Being and trying to make them happy instead of poorer. And any who want a raft of refferences, and who are willing to run up thier phone bill, can get them from me. Take your pick...USA, Canada, Britain, Mexico, Austrailia, Denmark, Italy, South Africa, Saudia Arabia, Dealers or Customers, it makes no difference; they all say the same thing, "I didn't belive it until I heard it, and it sounded good enough for me."
Posted by Invisible1:
Meditation chamber, eh? Many Flotation tanks use the Rolen Star. Usually, about 8 of them. Nothing else lasts more than a few weeks, and Pink Floyed sounds pretty good inside one of those things.
Posted by Invisible1:
Meditation chamber, eh? Many Flotation tanks use the Rolen Star. Usually, about 8 of them. Nothing else lasts more than a few weeks, due to the saline environment, and Pink Floyd sounds pretty good inside one of those things. Subliminal Tapes take on a whole new effect. And waterbeds? You betchca!
Posted by Invisible1:
:-(
Let's take these as they come
"DO NOT series two individual transducers together to obtain a 16 ohm load. The first T/D in the series could receive a disportionate amount
of the power before it passes onto the next one in line.
*******
The initial surge into ANY type of series circuit will ALWAYS affect the leading device more strongly if both devices are of the same impedence.
*******
Because Amplifiers must, as a rule be turned up higher than nomally, it is wisest to design a system that plays comfortably at the lowest possible Impedence level"
*******
All this means is that you must pick your amp to meet your "worst case" load.
*******
Surely the power is equal between the two T/Ds ( so why would one distort first? )
*******
See above......most speakers that do not require much power seldom experience the headroom potential of a amp; or not for very long! The RSAT thrives on headroom, but because of this, what would be a subtle difference in effecient speakers becomes a much more dynamic one @ 100 watts continious power. Anyway, by parralleling before you series, you always create a beefier circuit. Two units in tandem have twice the power handling potential. In a series, they only have thier original power handling cababilities.
*******
And who came up with the idea that amplifiers are more stable with a smaller load? Why is there this fixation on the angle of the volume knob?
*******
The Web Site was designed for common folk who don't live and breathe Audio. To them, you have to talk at thier level, and use terms they relate to.
*******
Perhaps this guy should get a job in a PA company for a bit and _work_ with some amplifiers for a bit
*******
I was building PAs for Night Clubs, Arenas, and Bands, and doing Live and Studio mixdowns in 1972. Where were you then, A crib? The RSAT does so many things differently than conventional speakers, someone such as yourself would have to throw out all your old concepts and beleifs to accept what many 1000s have already embraced. Can you still learn/unlearn anything?
********
Posted by Invisible1:
I'm sure you'll never know if they work or not because you'll be happy with the thought that money buys quality. Too bad it can't buy more of that intellegence you seem to set such great store in. Those who would condemn without understanding it are worse than idiots. And the Web Site will be updated soon....I've been too busy making money and satisfying customers since it was published in Jan.95.
Posted by Invisible1:
Your biggest problem is that everything you stated in your reply was either wrong,missguided, or just a obnoxious opinion. Which, of course your entitled to. The RSAT has found it's place in Multi-million dollar homes all the way down to Starter Homes, and out of thousands of customers over 22 years, some who bought thier systems on refferal only without ever hearing it, I can think of only 2, maybe 3 that were dissatisfied. And NONE have requested a refund. Even most High End speakers cannot match that claim.
Posted by Invisible1:
First, it's obvious that you don't understand that the RSATs mount on the inside of the sheetrock wall surface, not the outside. Either it's installed at the building stage or retrofitted.
People who are interested in NOT SEEING ANY speakers are instantly in love with I.S., and people who own/build houses do not have the same mindthink as apartment dwellers/renters. A House wide a/v system, either zoned or a composite grouping of rooms, (even 16 in some big homes) is looked upon as an asset, a selling feature, and something that is used everyday, everywehere, throughout the house. I can't beleve that you totally ignorant of the Market out there for Distributed audio, and if your own tastes and budget scream,"I'd never want that many rooms!" at least acknowledge that not everyone shares your views. Like the last 3000 clients I've had, virtually all of which had Home Theater rooms, an average of 7 rooms in Audio, and EVERY ONE OF THEM HAD TRANSDUCERS IN THIER SHOWERS...For FREE! That's a perk that I've always offered any client that did at least 5 rooms in Audio that included the master Bathroom. NO other In-wall speaker can claim such 'per home' averages, and certainly not going back 22 years. It's all in the targeted market and your marketing skills.
I Have two different offers so far from legitimate Magazines to reveiw Invisible Stereo. In extensive multi-room appa w/Home Theaters. Do you think that you could install them and hear them in thier best light, when installations in existing homes are so much more representitive of thier potential and capabilities? I have never touted the RSAT as a do-it-yourselfer product, but just as well I have not denied access to the product to those with an open mind. It so happens I'm in the process of acquiring a Dealer in K.S. MO Shold that result, I'll be there personally to train thier Installer/s and then you can check out I.S at your conveinence, which seems to be the only way it will happen. Or the invitation is open to spend $60 or so on gas, 9 hours on the road, and come see as many REAL installations as you can stomach, talk to real customers, some of which are 2 and 3 time repeaters, (they don't mind leaving it behind because they alway go a little more crazy with the next house they build.) and those who have had the system for over 10 years without a failure, and are still just as snthusiastic about telling newbees about it now as they were 10 years ago. can you think of ANY other speaker system that can hold such loyalty? It may not be for everyone, but it is a real option for the MAJORITY of people who belive in owning thier own homw and who do not want visable speakers. Is that clear enough?
I'll email you @ your private address an perhaps this will get rectified. and for the record, I can't recall ever calling you dishonest, just someone who is too free with speculative claims of malfeasence and unwarrented and biased criticisims without even knowing the real facts or the product at all.
Maurice
Note that he said, "Put a crossover in front of it to make sure you don't break the window"
Still, even then, I wouldn't do it...
This seems like something really shitty for high frequencies but great for bass.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I've always been interested in speaker design in general, do you know where I might be able to find information on design and construction of electrostats? (Or speaker systems in general, for that matter.)
An open-source speaker design program would make for an interesting project...
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Yeah, but think of the possibilities of quieting your room by producing white noise. Especially in the low frequency ranges that the wall board doesn't already dampen.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~~^~
There are so many reasons why this is a bad idea. Most people I know live in rooms with parallel walls, so the resulting standing wave (depending on the resonant frequency of the room) would probably be even worse than with traditional speakers, not to mention aging plaster or sheetrock crumbling. Also, most people like to hang stuff on their walls, and I would imagine those little adhesive picture hangers or tiny nails many use would be woefully inadequate when the needle drops on that new Spice Girls re-mix. And then there's neighbors, if you have any, although I would have liked to use them in retaliation against the country music-loving "look, it goes to eleven!" sisters who lived upstairs & drove me nuts for months. Did I mention they will almost certainly sound like garbage?
I can think of at least one album that would sound good though, and it's by Pink Floyd... (ducking)
Most audiophiles are over 30 and can't hear the full range that their speakers are capable of reproducing anyhow.
Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. Like a prof I had at the UofC. Back in the early days of CD's, he could actually hear the frequency modulations in cheaper players. To fix it, he would encase the quartz crystal in many pounds of lead (I think) and bee's wax. He pretty much built his own CD players and converted many of his audiophile friends to them, at a time when audiophiles just snickered at CD players for their lack of decent sound.
For those from the UofC, yes, I'm talking about Chris "Mr. Tangent" Walpole.
"Tomorrow's forecast: a few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" - Stewie Griffin
Why not just get some normal-ass every-day run-of-the-mill speakers?!? Is there NO GOD?!
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
I don't trust anything that has as badly designed a web site as that one. It hurt my soul to look at it.
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
A friend of mine made a "meditation chamber" with these sometime back in the 70's. I don't know anything about the older ones, though.
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
Audiophiles have been known to love old and outdated technology?
:) Kinda like souping up your 1.5 mhz Atari 800 to run at 500mhz.
:)
I doubt that. If you look at the specs on that "old" technology so many high end audiophiles like (phonographs, tube amps) -- the specs on them are *nothing* like what was available in the respective technology's heyday. They are ultramodern versions of outdated technology.
Either way these things sound like crap. Technology no one liked when it was new people will likely still not be liked now.
21st century? What a joke. How come we keep getting essentially nothing but ads for lousy tech on here so often?
I've heard units like these before and they sound like crap. Beyond the inherant fact that wallboard doesn't conduct sound that well and tends to be a very dampening surface, you'd have problems with resonance in the airspace behind the wallboard, problems with the point that the wallboard touches the joists in the walls.
The only thing this sort of technology has ever been even remotely good at is providing a bit of rumble to people in their cars -- and even then, no serious auto audiophile would come near them.
A company called Aura makes/made them for cars. Bass-only because they're at least smart enough not to claim that heavy surfaces like that can conduct and transmit cleanly the higher frequencies into the air.
I first heard about these 5 or 6 years ago back in the days of living with roommates. One of the two was a tremendous bullshitter and managed to acquire a demo of those type of speakers. The only reason he wanted them was to piss off the upstairs neighbor because he was a dick. Apparently they worked too well, because 7 days later, we got an eviction notice.
But anyway, they cost a pretty penny back then, but now only $60. Definitely worth looking into now.
This is nothing new, they're just mainstreaming a product that has been used in shops and office buildings since the invention of the speaker.
Steve 'Nephtes' Freeland | Okay, so maybe I'm a tiny itty
I've got a fetish for electrostatic speakers.
You don't have to go to this extreme to get bass response from electrostats. Just take a look at Stax headphones to see this (www.headphone.com).
Electrostats are essentially full-range speakers. However, at lower frequencies (wavelengths > 1/2 width of speaker baffle), the front wave cancels with the back wave. This is the reason that most speakers come in boxes. However, a box loads an electrostat too much, damping the motion of the diaphram.
Basically, you simply need to isolate the back wave from the front wave. This can be done by mounting a small electrostat in a big flat panel. I've often thought about building some electrostats to mount between studs in a wall. This ought to provide enough isolation to allow electrostats to produce 20Hz sound.
--Be human.
Living in a small apartment in Amsterdam, I can imagine the joy of watching my neighbours in fury at the house resonating with the prodigy on a late drinking night with my friends....
Sander
slashdot has been posting ads for quite some time.
Ads for headhunter services, ads for books on Amazon.com...
I wonder how much it costs to get a
So, instead of the elephants upstairs simply pointing their speakers at the floor (no concept of bass, it seems), they can just stick these things on the wall and annoy the whole apartment block! Great!
But seriously folks, what are the chances of these gizmos tearing the plaster from the wall? I mean, that sound has to come from somewhere = walls vibrating at high frequency. Or am I missing the point?
Oh, nice web site too. From the "my kid can do better than that" school of design.
(if this posts 2+ times, it's cos I got a "doc has not data" error).
Why is it that many people who claim to support standards have such atrocious spelling and grammar?
Now you tell me! After running close to 500' of cable and knocking holes in my walls (dodging wife who wanted to knock a hole in my head!).
This looks pretty cool, and I suppose will work in theory...Anyone want to give these a try and let us know?
Semi-true... The police came to reports from his neighbors...
Hmm.. These would be perfect to duplicate that experiment, just toss a low constant 20hz tone into a beam in a building, doesn't have to be loud or anything... Hmmm...
Slashdot is like Playboy: I read it for the articles
Funny, I seem to see (and HEAR) LOTS of these driving through my neighborhood in the summer, usually blasting (excuse me, thumping) hip hop tunes at INCREDIBLE volume (and distortion) levels.
Heck, I can even hear em indoors with the windows and doors closed. Maybe I've just stumbled onto this same technology and didn't know it...
Grin - see subj. ;-)
And the probability that the neigbours will kill you - very high
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
At least, this is as best I recall. I've not been an audio engineer for almost a decade now, and I can feel my knowledge deteriorating....
cjs
The world's most portable OS: http://www.netbsd.org.
Wow, how much would that set you back?
I bet these bad boys would be a great device for monitoring audio in a given room... all you need to do is put them on a flat surface that can resonate easily... hook it up like a microphone and 'voila'.... just slap it on the back of a dresser mirror or something.... oh wit- i meant to post this on hackernews.com.... :)
I'll admit a bias here. I've never heard an in-wall speaker or system that matched the quality of a similarly priced free-standing speaker. So I would not be at all surprised if your Invisible Stereo speakers sound MUCH better than other in-wall designs. But I'd be very surprised if any in wall system is cost competitive with well-designed free standing speakers. Now then, because of the accusation of dishonesty, I'm going to do my best to shred virtually every iota of Invisible1's post. Mostly from the standpoint of price.
I'll put up or shut up now. Within the next half hour, you should be receiving an e-mail with info on where I live -- you let me know where there is a system nearby, and I'll give them a listen -- and with Rob's permission, publish my honest review here on /. [Note: I don't work for any stereo companies, so this will be an unbiased, listening test only.]
You got game? I got ears. Let's put these to the test.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
I don't claim to be an audiophile, but I've got both the math background and good enough ears to know when the math works and when it "just ain't so." This can happen in one of two ways:
- there's no way a design can produce a high quality sound, or
- spending more money won't dramatically improve the sound.
From this background, let me tell you that as proposed on this web-site, it's not only unlikely but damn near if not impossible to design a worthwhile sound system using these drivers. Here's why:Note to Rob: rather than spending any $$ on these, buy yourself a 10 band stereo equalizer. It'll save you a ton of money and make any stereo speaker or system you'll ever buy better because with it and a little patience you can tune your system to the room .
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
I don't think I would like to live next door to the clown with these things in his walls. Can you imagine living in an apartment complex with people on either side of you playing different stations/cds. Seems like it would be worse than someone carrying a boom box down the street.
It's bad luck to be superstitious
I have seen these before, along time ago. Damark used to sell them. The only problem with these are the walls. Ever try to make the wall move??? Pretty hard isn't it. I feel that this device is a great idea, but the quality will lack IMO.
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Place them on your windows... Of course you would have to put a cross over infront of it, just to make sure you don't break your window...
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Audiophiles have been known to love old and outdated technology.. Also psydo science involded systems... That's my 2 cents...
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
There are diffrent styles of glass. Like the re-enforced glass you see on golf courses.
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Well what would be the benifits of an 8bit system running a 500 mhz?
Tube amps are:
1. Heavy
2. Produce alot of heat
3. Energy hogs
4. Never sounds the same from the first turn on
5. Replacing tube each year can cost alot
6. High levels of harmonic distortion
Audiophile grade speakers are:
1. Do not do a full range
2. Cost to much
3. Claims things that can not be claimed
4. Design is in look, not in quality of sound
5. Ports, lots of them to emulate fz
6. Resonace is a bad thing
But audiofiles like listening to these devices becuase they like the tone, even if it's not a true sound.
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Ok, Plexi-glass?
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Not just one, but many gods.. But that's another Here's the solution, don't buy these things, they suck, If you want high quality audio, get some eletrostatic or ribbon speakers. But if you can stand your current system, you can wait for the true digital speaker. 256 peizo element speaker. I tried to get an artic from 'Audio' magazine posted on here, but the didn't like it. Oh well..
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
What I ment is that Damark sold simuluar unti. They attached to windows.. I haven't seen these since, but it's been years.. Probaly 93-94..
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Distortion = Distortion no matter what....
Look up the term in the dictionary...
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I never have.. But I feel they would not meet my need of audio liking.
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
So it didn't break, like everyon have been stating it would. At 118db, that's pretty damned impressive.
"Windows 98 Second Edition works and players better than ever." -Microsoft's Home page on Win98SE.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Having dabbled in speaker cabinet design, and designed a few PA systems, been a sound guy for bands, etc., I have a few serious reservations about how well these things would work.
...infinitely more construction based variables of course.
The biggest ones:
1) Aren't the characteristics of the sound going to have huge dependencies on the construction of the walls, the size, stud spacing, wallboard thickness etc. If the wallboard is a little loose wouldn't it "buzz" against the studs? Would pictures vibrate? Wouldn't things like stud spacing, wallboard thickness, wood hardness (of the studs) and other factors affect the flatness of the frequency response. What about metal studs? What about lath and plaster walls vs. paneling vs. sheetrock etc.
2) There are several evidences in the advertising copy of junk science and BS double-talk. For example, the site claims that this technology eliminates standing waves.
Standing waves are (almost) 100% a function of room geometry (primarily dimensions of the room vs. multiples of wavelengths, absorbancies of various surfaces in the room also come into play) and (almost) 0% a function of speaker design. This claim (and some others on the site) dump its credibility into the toilet IMHO.
Bottom line, IMHO this system is likely to not sound very good at all in the majority of installations.
While on the topic of high tech speakers, have a look at these. If I ever saved up a couple of bucks I'd get a pair, but since they are designed for music and not home theater, perhaps, I'd need 2 pairs, but what to do for the center channel?
Anyway, anyone have a fetish for electrostatic speakers? I really like the idea, but too bad you have to go to this much overkill just to get them to have proper bass responce.
I friend of mine found a single one of these in his garage. We mounted it to the back of some sheetrock and it sounded all muffled. Cool concept, but they really do suck. Maybe they wouldn't be so bad if you could buy some specially designed board for them that would reproduce sound a little better than sheetrock. Maybe if you got yourself a 4' x 8' sheet of acrylic or lexan it would reproduce the sound a little better.
What if you break one by driving it too hard? You have to tear your wall apart.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
Hey....what's wrong with doing a site in notepad? You can do anything ther eyou can do in any of yer newfangled composer programs, and the html is cleaner.
ever seen the source of a page done on Adobe or Netscrape? it goes something like this on many a line:
that won't happen in notepad (or vi or....)
-Andy Martin
-Andy Martin
If y'all don't like me, blow me.
tags didn't show. oops. anyway, it basicall set center, bold, font size then turned them all off with no text in between.
sorry.
-Andy Martin
-Andy Martin
If y'all don't like me, blow me.
And it caused an earthquake!!!
If you must have this, please allow me to highly recommend that you punch slightly larger holes in your walls (wife will persue only slightly more vigorously), and insert standard drivers. The advantage of having the vibrating surface not touch the wall, vibrate the air and thus the wall will reduce the gain, but give you the general idea. What I'm certain you'll find is that at 40hz and down it's just peachy. If I had to have this, I'd choose a new style of wall paper and replace the drywall between two studs with heavy mylar or some resilient plastic. Then the transducers might be just peachy, and the wife would get new wall paper in return for her patience.
artpopp@gte.net
--Windows NT and the Brontosaurus, what do they have in common?
Attached a coil to a column in his lab,
the police station next door started to
crumble.
Or did I dream that?
Regardless of the sound quality produced by such as system, have any of you ever tried to hang shi^Heetrock? I can't see a wall lasting through more than a few day of heavy base before the nails start popping through. And how do they account for the various thicknesses of the board. This whole thing is a crock.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
First: boy does this site suck. Looks like a retarded 4 year old chimp on methamphetamines designeded this in the midst of a particularly violent flashback. In notepad.
Second: The premise is silly. All of a sudden, they are able to turn my house into a finely tuned resonating cavity for the entire ferquency range? You must be kidding. Sheet rock doesn't resonate for just about anything. Well designed and well constructed speakers are expensive cause... they're well designed and well constructed.
These thing an an affront to my own intelligence.
great. They tend to loose high frequencies and overall sound like they are covered with a thick blanket.
:)
The drywall in most homes absorbs most of the vibrations causing the tone. If you had sheetmetal lining your room, then yes, they might work better.
But, it is a start.
RB
They don't look invisible to me
I got a set under my seats in the car. Unless you mount them into the floor, they just vibrate. They do work well and at least Aura says that they are for bass reproduction only.
RB
The windows will shatter because they are pretty brittle. Once the frequency hits the resonance of the glass for a second, it will shatter. The walls are so anchored and screwed down, the resonance will affect a small area and then dissipate. The glass cannot do that.
The person that sent the link sells the stuff. Now I can see how these could be considered news for nerds or stuff that matters... But it is an AD!
RB
Hmm? Glass On Golf Courses? The "glass" in the carts are usually lexan that absorbs nearly everything. The glass on the proshops is similar to auto glass, that is, it has a coating on it that will prevent it from going to pieces everywhere. It still suffers from the same harmonic resonance shatter. It just won't go all over the carpet when it breaks. But it will if the speakers keep sending energy into the pieces.
RB
Ahh, if only they worked in cubeland.. :)
Then I could get this 200watt sub out from under my desk
Curses, I've been beaten to the punch. I'll be back!
The Golden Rule of buying stuff on the web: never buy anything off a webpage that looks like the HTML equivalent of a Home Shopping Channel ('Mike, I can't see those speakers AT ALL! It's AMAZING!').
"You're one of those condescending UNIX computer users!" - "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer." (Di
Oh, and as for the 6 billion of you who emailed me to wish me birthday greetings, thanks, now stop!
/.ed. Kinda ironic. Anyone know if there is a mirror of Rob up?
I guess Rob got
-NG
+--
Given infinite time, 100 monkeys could type out the complete works of Shakespeare.
+-- (Score:-1, Moderator on Power Trip)
Most personal home pages I've seen are better than that. That's pretty cheezy. I wouldn't buy anything from anyone with a page that cheezy.
I wish i had a pair of bill gates. So i could just listen to his BS all the time...
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