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$199 Internet Linux Box
Karpe writes "You
can read it in news.com. Microworkz
will sell a $199 computer
for surfing the Web. It's called iToaster, and will run
Linux." They aren't giving out much real data except that
its x86 based, and it won't feature tons of advertising as part
of your web browsing experience (as most of the "Free" PCs floating
around seem to want).
The thing is, Microwerkz offers a "full" computer for $299. It doesn't come with a monitor, although it does come with MS software. I suppose this iToaster is a similar configuration, sans MS software.
Hey! I cannot believe such a PC can be sold at $200 :
- Pentium class CPU: $50
- Hard disk : $100
- 8 MB memory : $8
- Modem : $15
So their system costs at least $173 to manufacture. By counting their profits and the margin of the retailers, you can imagine that it is completely impossible for them to earn money.
The article said Microworkz is not going to overcommit this time around (limiting sales to 10K units in the next 2 months). This isn't a guarantee that they won't take two months to get your order, but I'm sure the company knows that if it gets a reputation for delaying orders over a month that they'll go out of business mighty quick.
Sorry to cause offence. I'll think of a new one (how about : Windows - Transparent and easy to break)
I was really talking to all the feeble people out there who complain all day about Windows' flaws and then do nothing about it, though.
Macintosh has chic appeal?
It still sounds like an anorak, even if it isn't spelt like one.
"Quite probably the guy that wrote the piece for News.com got his info screwed."
;-)
Nah, that NEVER happens.
-WW
--
Why are there so many Unix-using Star Trek fans?
When was the last time Picard said, "Computer, bring
I just wanted to make sure that this point comes across strongly. THIS ISN'T LINUX.
I often complain about flaws I find in Windows.
However, there's not an awful lot I can do about it - Linux is just often not an option. I *have* to work on Windows. I did try putting Linux on my computer at home, but I just didn't really like it - getting it to work just seemed to involve far too much work. - I'd hardly describe myself as 'feeble' - I'd just rather get on with using an OS rather than spending ages getting it configured so that I can use it...
Now I use BeOS as my alternative OS - it's cute and fun to program to.
It sounds to me like they might be running BeOS with a few utilities ported ever from Linux - BeOS boots up *very* quickly - it takes longer for my computer to go through the pre-boot stuff (graphcis card init, SCSI startup, memory check etc...) that it does to go from there to the desktop. Apparently version 4.5 is even quicker - I imagine Be could quite easily make a version that took a few shortcuts, as they know the exact specs of the system to speed it up some more, resulting in a bootup which is only a few seconds long.
I don't really want to see your original art on this patent.
"Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer." - Linux Advocac
What does that tell us about your products, since they are buying some stuff from you, if thier stuff is crappy then yours must be too.
Apart from any licensed (dev.driver-)code, of which I know nothing,
Be has, legally correct, included a bunch of "open"
command-line utilities, and Samba, with BeOS.
Apart from that, AFAIK, there is no "Linux" or GPL'ed code -in- the
Be -Operating System-.
Be has some very talented engineers, so they don't need it.
Yea, cuz microsoft wants you to use CE for these cheap, underpowered devices.
Well, They got the underpowered part down.
Now they just have to compete with linux on the price front. What's that? How does a software manufacturing company (as opposed to a software services company) make money by giving it away?
Details... Details...
Don't worry about microsoft. They're dead. Just noone realizes it yet.
Yup. I agree completely.
;) or a 200MPG carburetor or ways to pay $0 in taxes "legally" for nothing or ways to Make Money Fast. It just doesn;t work that way. Yes, Linux allows you to spend money on hardware instead of licences, and that is cool because for the cost of WinNT and Office you could go SCSI and double your RAM (I am assuming $700 for licenced copies, the cost of a small DPT controller and the marginal increased cost of SCSI CD ROMs and hdds, and the cost of an extra 128MB stick of ECC RAM). Yiy could then go for a slower CPU, saving you more money (a 300MHz set as opposed to a $400 MHz set), allowing you to get a UPS. Anyway, the tradeoff is in speed of learning to use Linux as opposed to Windows. But it pays off. Most people don't see this. They see the immediate cost, not the lifetime cost, and I have come to believe that when you see this, you should walk away, because no matter what they say they agree with or what they sign, they will be back in your face and angry real soon after and they will want you to fix their problems. So, I think that it is good policy to try to lose a certain number of customers because they are guaranteed to lose you money in the long run BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING MORONS. Ahem. Sorry.
I have about 15 years of technical work, mostly for companies, and it never ceases to amaze me wgat people think that they can get away with/get for free. I attribute it to the incredibly poor quality of education in this country. If people weren't so ignorant, marketing wouldn't work. News flash -- there are no secret ways to make something half as cheap and twice as fast, anymore that there are ways to get a Camero for $1000 (thanks
I finished an MBA last year and I spent a lot of time (obviously) around the sort of people that get MBAs. They aren't technicians, to be blunt. I was one of the only people who had any technical background. On more than one occasion, because people knew that I was technical, I was asked about building (as opposed to buying) a PC. I would give them a short course about what mattered (throughput) and what didn't (CPU speed, mostly). And I would guesstimate prices for them. And then they would ask me if I could do it, with that pseudo-sneaky look that I had learned to be wary of from managers. And I would say yes, at $60/hr. They would blink. And they would go buy a Dell, mostly. A few of them would then settle down and seriously talk money, and I built a few computers, and those people were delighted (SCSI is worth the money, as is good RAM), and the people who thought that they could get me to do stuff for free were pretty pissed off when they were studying with people who had some "Jim Engineering" workstations and saw that they were more than twice as fast, even with Windows. Especially when they realized that the Dell or Compaq that they had was only $200 cheaper.
You can't really teach adults. You shouldn't try. Pigs, singing, and all that.
With really cheap machines, you could probably expect market segmentation from MS. They'd probably give away something like CE rather than see a competitor lock up a new mass market. Remember IE.
(Reality reasserts itself sooner or later.)
It's a 3 1/2 foot tall woman with a flat head....you figure it out.
It may be the exact opposite. Some of Be's newsletters have said they were interested in getting into the "internet device" market. Furthermore, they have, with the permission of the actual developers, incorporated some linux code into parts of the OS (some of Be's ethernet drivers, actually are wrappers around Donald Becker's ethernet drivers), and I believe they were incorporating some more linux code in (not sure where, not sure when).
Since I saw too many people who didn't read the article, I won't reply to each one, I'll just start a new thread.
1. They say it's a hybrid OS
so-It's not Linux with a new Windows Manager
3. They say there are no apps yet
so-It's not Linux
4. They say it's a cross between Linux and BeOS
so-It's not Linux
This box is not helping pave the way for world domination. I am willing to bet it won't even cut into the MS profit margin. It will be plauged with bugs, bad tech support and send consumers screaming. What it does do is give Linux a bad name if all of that happens, articles like this that the public can see, and then go buy one of these things will hurt Linux in the long run, say the box works OK (it won't be bug free it's version 1.0 of a hybrid OS)then everything might be fien, but if it's as buggy as most 1.0 products then MS can say "llok it runs Linux". This won't be true but it is what is most likely to happen, and besdies if this company is a threat they are small enough for MS to squish them. This box does not run Linux and doesn't have any apps other than a browser, it doesn't support a lot iof multi-media stuff, if you want to just check you e-mail I guess it's cheaper than a good palmtop, but in the long run it won't be worth it.
so-It's no Linux
Detail: X-Windows is not a Linux-only project.
:)
I've used NetPositive as my everyday browser for more than a year.
(doing Internet Banking, et al)
Sure, Javascript is still lacking, and there's no Java.
(No relation between the two, I know.)
It's still a great browser, and it'll be much better in the next iteration, due soon. Opera and Gecko will be here in fall, IIRC.
Us BeOS prosumers will soon be fully supplied.
My single AMD K6-200 system running the BeOS boots from the initial HDD access to no HDD access (full load) at the desktop in seven seconds. With the POST counted it ~may~ be 10 seconds total. That is "instant on" when compared to Windows and Linux both.
My $0.02
World domination is at hand. Within five years, Microsoft will be an also-ran.
--
Get your fresh, hot kernels right here!
I'll bet you it's not a "hybrid" OS at all, but a DUAL-BOOT machine with BeOS and Linux installed.
You heard it here first.
--Mr. Right
a portable version of the iToaster priced under $500 will be introduced by next year.
Sorry, Linux Guys... There isn't any linux on this box. It's all BeOS. World domination aside, tears arn't good for your keyboard, so be careful.
Great concept; dumb name.
According to the Maximum PC Network, the iToaster will contain the BeOS and not the Linux Operating System.x po-1.html
http://www.ars-technica.com/wankerdesk/2q99/pce
"Built on the BeOS r4.5 (Linux is not involved, despite what other reports have said), but highly different in appearance, the iToaster is a little black PC that lacks either a floppy or a CD-ROM."
Wrong! Seeing as BeOS is actually the OS, not Linux it MUST be at least a Pentium class system. BeOS will not run on anything less.
BeOS is designed to handle multimedia applications, so the iToaster should have no problems handling those types of tasks.
Zbzzn
I was confused at first, because I thought this thing really was a toaster, and that the age old joke of having Linux on your toaster had come true, as I read on however, I found out I was udderly wrong...
What a silly name!
This doesn't strike me as all that interesting. For $199, you could buy a 486 and the appropriate preipherals for surfing the web.
As a tech, I could do it without a second thought, but I suppose if you don't know anything about computers, this would be easier to work with.
Does this use a TV set? Do you need a monitor? Monitors are too expensive and TVs are too lousy. This thing might make it if they kick in a DVD player, and digital TV tuner. But I wonder what a device like that would cost...
This can totally be done. You're thinking of what you need, not what the really low end consumer actually needs, the person that's just starting out. I'm amazed anyone buys a first PC these days, it would take a lot of faith to dump that much money into something that may end up being unusable anyway.
If computers cost as much as they do now back when I was growing up, we wouldn't have had one, and I'd be moving boxes for a living...
-- The unsig...
I can't seem to get onto the microworkz web page right now so i haven't seen the REAL specs yet, but this looks good. With just about every previous "value" computer (including this $800 compaq I bought a while ago,) if I look around I see, gee, I could build my own just like that, with seperate, upgradable componenets instead of onboard or proprietary, for a couple hundred less. But it looks like this company is using mass-production techniques and all that to good use. If I find that I can put wordperfect on it, and hook a printer up to it, i'm in line to buy one (pending decent specs...).
"I want peace on earth and good will toward men." "We're the U.S. government. We don't do that sort of thing!!"
Since I saw too many people who didn't read the article, I won't reply to each one, I'll just start a new thread.
1. They say it's a hybrid OS
so-It's not Linux with a new Windows Manager
3. They say there are no apps yet
so-It's not Linux
4. They say it's a cross between Linux and BeOS
so-It's not Linux
This box is not helping pave the way for world domination. I am willing to bet it won't even cut into the MS profit margin. It will be plauged with bugs, bad tech support and send consumers screaming. What it does do is give Linux a bad name if all of that happens, articles like this that the public can see, and then go buy one of these things will hurt Linux in the long run, say the box works OK (it won't be bug free it's version 1.0 of a hybrid OS)then everything might be fien, but if it's as buggy as most 1.0 products then MS can say "llok it runs Linux". This won't be true but it is what is most likely to happen, and besdies if this company is a threat they are small enough for MS to squish them. This box does not run Linux and doesn't have any apps other than a browser, it doesn't support a lot iof multi-media stuff, if you want to just check you e-mail I guess it's cheaper than a good palmtop, but in the long run it won't be worth it.
I hate dealing with little overpriced stores like yours, you guys used to make money by being the only guy in town, but today that just doesnt work anymore. Sure in a pinch someone would buy from you but when someone can get the same exact product for 50% less online or in Frys etc why not? Its not like you guys even pay your techs what they are worth. When I was in college I remember talking to a friend working as a tech in one or your rinky dink stores and he was making 7 buchs an hour while the store charged 50 bucks labor on their customers an hour. With a 1 hr min.
When the store upgraded memmory etc for someone they shafted them on the part and on the labor, and the only one who benifited was the owner.
And dont give me that BS about overhead. Computer stores/repair have one of the lowest overheads around if they dont overstock on stuff no one buys. Move into the 21 century. You cant make $$$ of restricting peoples access to tech, you actually have to earn it.
This is ANOTHER thing i scratched on some notebook paper. I'm gonna have to lock up my notebooks from now on...
Even though I wasn't able to build one first, it's still a great idea. Not only does it give linux some rather good publicity but providing they have a USB port (great for accessorizing) or two it would also lead to some hardware manufacturers helping out with linux drivers for their products. It's very profitable too, a MediaGX processor (which Microwerkz loves), FlashROM or a small hard disk, some memory and mobo and such would probably run them about 150-170$ which means they make at least a 30$ profit off these, 10,000 * 30$ = enough to build a nice little production facility. If I can network it and plug it into my gateway I'll buy one for my parents.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Read the article numbskull, it doesn't run Linux, it runs a hybrid OS that DOESN'T have any third party apps available. How come half of you people don't read the article before you post, I know you are smarter than that
I've been thinking about this. (careful, could over-heat that brain cell)
BeOS has some kind of POSIX compatibility, right?
So maybe what they mean is that they've ported some user-space Linux software to BeOS. 'course, this doesn't explain the *free* bit.
The only other alternative I can think of is that they really have got some kind of license with Be.
I think toilet paper is the greatest invention of all times. I wish I had the patent, id be richer than bill gates.
If it was truly a hybrid OS of Linux and BeOS, I would expect it to run apps written for *both* OSs. They'd just need recompiling.
Well, according to some new information, it seems that the article I based my previous post on (2 posts up) was incorrect (and thus I was partly wrong as well).
According to a review at benews.com, the iToaster will contain a proprietary OS. They have obtained this information from Microworkz.com (Microworks being the maker of the iToaster).
Whether it is completely true that the iToaster is running a propriety OS, I can't say for sure, although a lot of information on various sites points to "some type" of proprietary OS.
You can read more about it as well as view some pictures of the iToaster at:
http://www.benews.com/img/incoming/169.gif
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I'm not trying to start a flamewar, but aren't you just spreading your own FUD? Do you have any proof? I think this would definitely qualify for (F)ear and (U)ncertainty, if not (D)oubt. At least you made it clear that it was your opinion... But if you're criticizing someone else for spreading FUD, make sure you're not being a hypocrite.
I hope you're cautioning people to read this before they buy vice telling them not to buy because of this. Microworkz was ready to handle 10,000 units a month not the 60,000 to 70,000 in 10 days they received. I don't think you can flaw them for that. I don't know if the Webzter was Microworkz first product or not, but if so they deserve at least a second chance to see if they've adapted and overcome. If they repeat the same mistakes then, and only then, can you recommend people not buy from Microworkz.
--- Keep the choice with the user..
Unless they pulled just the code they wanted, essintaily creating another proprietary OS.
That means there might be new bugs, but at least you won't have to deal with M$ Office's bugs.
Look, I have had experiences like those touched on above, and I tend to see his comments more like the sort that I have heard myself making over a beer with friends when I have had a hard time trying to make customers understand why a decent power supply will cost $200 at a minimum, unless you want something of dubious reliability, that will deviate +-10% to 15% from rated specs, that will not handle a load, and so on. They don't get it.
me: "Yes, that case/power supply combo is $40 total, but it will cause problems with your motherboard and disks if a)you are running anything that needs stable power for a long time, b)you are doing a lot of disk accesses, c)you have any electrical noise whatsoever, and d)if you have any brownouts periodically."
them: "But that whole thing is $50 and it is a 250 watt supply! You want to sell me a 200 watt supply without the case to go with it [yes, I hear that a lot] for $220! I feel ripped off!"
me: "I make 10% on most parts -- we make money on labor. The supply costs me $200, has a five year warranty, we have never got one back, you are talking about running a PII that can pull 20% of the rated power off the bat plus two disks plus a CD ROM plus a Voodoo2 and a Matrox card with 16MB of RAM and you want 128MB of RAM on the board for your kewl gaming system. You will have problems with a cheap supply. That is why we don't sell them -- a 30 day warranty isn't cool with something like a power supply, and neither is a power supply so poorly set up that it cannot be sold alone -- it is only rated inside a case."
me: "But is says "250 watts" right there, and your is 200 watts. Electricity is electricity man, I know that. I think that you are ripping me off."
And he leaves, and we go back to building some more scientific workstations for UT and fixing mission critical POS systems for people who don't play games on their computers.
It always reminds me of Spinal Tap, where the roadie (AFAICR) says "Ours goes to eleven."
Yes, we charge $50/hr with a 30 minute minimum, and my techs are paid $25/hr. That is normal around here, too.
I am not sure what your experience has been. You may have taken out the prices on the person selling the stuff. Not having money sucks -- that is why I started my business -- but it sometimes isn't the fault of greedy capitalist screwing the consumer. Sometimes they know what they are talking about and they don't want to be selling something guaranteed to come back and bite them. Some stuff is expensive because it is expensive, like some stuff is hard because it is hard. People complain about sendmail tool, but you get what you pay for, in money or effort. And just because you effort is not costing you, that doesn't mean that it is free either.
Sorry about your experiences (really -- I see too many people who come into the shop looking like they are about to be ambushed and and approach the service counter with the grimace of someone who is expecting to be taking from the rear without any vaseline and I find this depressing, considering how much computers have added to my life all along). But that isn't an iron rule and a lot of small shops do do good work at decent prices. (And no, I ain't plugging it either. This isn't the proper forum.)
Fins out where the cable guys and AT&T guys go for odd parts and you might have a better shop. Ask people in your local LUG where they shop. And think over what you need -- if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
With more than a little irony, these machines seem to fit the model Clayton Christensen describes in his book "The Innovator's Dilemma: When distruptive technologies cause great firms to fail" These "bottom-feeders" would currently be the least desirable of "lost customers" for MS (those who spend the least amount of money). However, as you note, once they reach some level of numbers, they will reach upward to market just above (I'm describing the market here, not the functionality of the competing OS's). The irony being that is not unlike how MS got its' original foot in everybody's door. Gene
But isn't that exactly what the computer industry has been doing for may years now? I am not saying that the iToaster is some quantum leap in computer technology. It is only another step in the continuing trend toward faster and cheaper hardware.
And keep in mind that because it is running Linux, the iToaster should still perform well on lower end hardware. I've removed Windows from old 486 systems and replaced it with Linux. The effect on web surfing and general system response time was dramatic. That, combined with the *no license fee* thing, make Linux a perfect fit for the Internet Appliance market. I've been predicting that something like the iToaster would come along, and in exactly this price range. I expect this and similar devices to make a serious gouge into MS's desktop market share.
Thad
The Bolachek Journals
I'd rather refute you than moderate for blatant ignorance. :) However, trusting a GOOD computer shop is a much, much better idea than trusting the "Idea Box" :) :) :)
1) NOT ALL SHOPS ARE THE SAME.
- In fact, most of them suck. In a big way. Mine's not too bad, though I could definitely use a pay raise. (BTW, I live near Austin and am ready for a new job. E-mail me
2) At Fry's, Circuit City, and etc., the "tech" don't usually know JACK $HIT
- Truth. They are usually little more than glorified burger flippers. Every once an a while, you find someone who knows something, but it's very uncommon. They make up answers to questions they've never heard before. At a computer shop, the owners and managers don't have any use for people who don't know how to work a computer. Don't expect them to last long.
3) You are stupid.
- I hate being blunt, but if you get taken by an unreasonable computer store, it's nobody's fault but yourself. You also must be living in a hole to think they all overcharge. Any of them doing good, solid buisness offer better prices on new equipment much more regularly than bigger chains. If a computer store has a good reputation, go there. Why take chances? Even if you have no life, you can call up the BBB or just start asking around and checking prices. Unreasonable computer shops do not last very long though. They have to be very resoponsive to thier local reputation, because often that is all they have.
BTW, if you are going to complain about outrageous prices, start with insurance, auto repair, and apartment rent
A small Linux box has uses - even without much in resources, it can easily serve as an advanced ISDN router/firewall/masq, DNS, mail, www, ftp, print-et cetra-server - many old 386/486 boxes are now doing just that.
The problem I see with this as a general "Internet appliance" is that what is going to become the family internet appliance is going to be on the high end. It may - indeed should - have such a box between it and the actual Net, but when such a thing converges it will have functions that are on the verge but not quite implemented well yet by anyone. Besides the MP3-playing, probably essential TV tuner/DVD, and massive 3D video acceleration, digital VCR functions will soon be expected; Multicast IP? Forget it. With digital TV, the amounts of data that can be broadcast along with the video is immense and individually or group addressable, with the Internet the probable backchannel.
We're talking the family data center. Almost certainly more than one. Dad & Mom aren't going to watch their hour of news tidbits, gathered over the day from dozens of sources, at the same time as their offspring are playing Quake or doing their home schooling lessons. No one is going to want to share their 40+Gig drive(s) with the rest of the family either, or give up TV-or-better video formats to store there.
I think this is a Good Thing overall, and that it will spur the growth and usefulness of the internet immensely to extend it into the rest of the family's communications realms. I hope that the Open Source movement can use the opportunity - and need - for open standards in unifying electronic communication.
Why are 486's cheap? Here's your mini economics course.
:)
:)
High Demand + Low Supply = High Selling Price
High Demand + High Supply = K-rad selling price
Low Demand + Low Supply = K-rad Selling Price
and of course....
Low Demand + High Supply = Really Really Low Selling Price ( - The 486 chips go here, though supply isn't all that high, unless it's relative to demand.)
They aren't cheap just because they are old, but because no product currently demand them. (This explains why the antique computer buisness exists
If there is a high demand for iToasters, then demand for parts for the iToasters also go up. If the supply for those parts begins to dry up (example: if they are made from old 486's, which are no longer in production, period), parts price go up, then that company is in trouble
Basing a new product on obsolete technology is bad bull for any company.
Linux is GPL'd. Code release required. The BeOS kernel is closed-source (although large chunks of the system are open i.e. the BeOS GeekGadgets, like the Amiga GeekGadgets from ninemoons before them, are just recompiles of all the GNU tools)
Could be interesting, although more likely is just "a single-user mode linux kernel configured to boot a somewhat BeOS-like GUI"
Choice of masters is not freedom.
Webster Jr was one of the crappiest sh*t loads unloaded on the masses..Another rip off is in the future I guess...
By the way my tae on Webster Jr..at 299..golden bucks Yeah right 299 without a CD-ROM and a Floppy Drive...
Mind you what kind of idiot is going to have a computer without a floppy..where the hell are you going to save your files for a back up
Well here is the adverti: anyways...
Perfect for surfing the web and light word processing, the WEBzter Jr. is America's lowest price computer. For just
$299, you get a Heh..heh my a** powerful Cyrix 300 MII processor, 32MB SDRAM, a fast 56k modem , Corel WordPerfect Suite 8 and
one full year of unlimited Internet access. For just $99, you can add a CD-ROM and floppy drive and a 15" Monitor costs just $139.95. Don't forget our 3-year onsite warranty for just $49.95. Want the full system specifications?
Click on "more detail" above or, to place your order, just scroll down to the bottom of the screen.
So the normal computer cost close to $500
Here's what Street Tech had to say about the Webzter Jr, the cheapo PC by Microworkz.
In a nutshell: 0.0 rating.
-jhp
/. -- the Free Republic of technology.
"2) At Fry's, Circuit City, and etc., the "tech" don't usually know JACK $HIT :) "
:)
I totally agree with you on that one. I was at Best Buy the other day. Some woman and her kid were talking to one of the 'Computer Experts' there about a problem they had with burning songs on a CD. Anyhow after totally explaining the problem to them correctly what the sales person didn't seem be able to do right the woman informed me that she paid Best Buy 5 hours worth of work to install their new EIDE CDRW. She said it took them three hours to install the CDRW at $50.00/hour, then while installing the CDRW they fucked her PC up so she had to pay them another 2 hours worth of work at $50.00/hr to fix what *THEY* screwed up. It never ceases to amaze me how compeatly *STUPID* these people who work at the Best Buy/Circuit City places.
What *REALLY* pissed me off was, from what I understood the kid was about 9/10 yrs old spent all the money he saved on the CDRW, then Best Buy goes and screws his mother over for trying to get the thing work for their computer then on top of it fucks her again after they screw the computer up.
I still couldn't understand what the hell they did to their computer to take 5 hours worth of work to get a freaking CDRW to work in their PC I'm at the point to belive that Best Buy just did 1 hour worth of work watched Star Wars for another 2 hrs or something then charged her 3 hours for installing the CDRW. I can't belive that the people there are *THAT* freaking *STUPID*.
Oh well... Stupid places, then someone halfway decent trys setting up shop no one wants to business with them because they don't screw the people. It always seems to end up that way.
- lakdjfalkdj Cus all the good nicks were taken!
-jhp
/. -- the Free Republic of technology.
Here's a possible hint: Linux has compatibility with Netscape, and yet BeOS has better fonts and a more polished GUI. So perhaps it's BeOS with some X-Windows code taken from Linux for Netscape compatibility.
It would be pretty lame if they relied on NetPositive. Now, I like NetPositive personally, because it's smooth and fast, but it's not going to make it as your only browser.
D
----
Being an it manager at a local company near seattle.
Being that Microworkz is located not that far south from me.
Being that we have 40 units from them.
Current count of parts that have gone out on us.
24 cpu fans.
12 power supply fans.
3 cpu's.
2 motherboards
1 video card in a pear tree.
My advice would be to stay as far away from this company as humanly possible. The crap they market as a computer would be better melted down and sold as a toaster.
They charge $50 shipping for their $299 pc. $199 is a lowball price -- you'll actually pay more by the time you get it delivered and perhaps add a few options like disk drives or monitor.
If MS wants to give an OS away for free, we can't really complain. Although we'd prefer source code, getting a buggy OS for free is better than getting a buggy OS for $70. Then again, I doubt MS would ever be so generous.
--
Ok, this is something I've wondering about. Has anyone investigated how to speed to do this for normal PCs? Where is all the time taken up during kernel boot? If you assume all the hardware hasn't changed from the last boot, is there anyway to quicky "play-back" io initialization and then load a memory image of the kernel?
I've been making a little robot with microprocessors, but I'd like to add some real CPU power without too much work. Using linux is the obvious choice, but boot time can be a pain if the bot shuts down frequently to save power.
Inquiring minds want to know...
-- Virtual Windows Project
I think we should quit this anti-Microsoft jihad because it reflects on our maturity. Microsoft did nothing but they are accused of vapor-FUD.
Think about it. Is this any different then the 9 year old who collects sticks and rocks for the percieved Alien invasion?
--
But they couldn't create a propietary OS if it's Linux based, right? GPL?
Alejo.
It's not Microworkz's fault that they got swamped. Microworkz wasn't anticipating such a large number of orders. You should have wrote this in your post. Did you actually read the article?
DES Khaddafi KGB genetic jihad Uzi Rule Psix Qaddafi cryptographic Peking Mossad Legion of Doom Albanian Serbian Saddam
...
Beer
What he says is essentially "I got annoyed so I didn't care to review it".
/El Niño
Of the few that I looked at, only London computers had machines with Linux preinstalled. Everything else either didn't come with an OS at all (some were just kits) or had Win98.
If you could, post the dealers that were selling preinstalled Linux machines. Thanks
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Did you miss the part about 'single or limited-use' in your glee at labelling Windows and Office "bloated legacy"?
I can't think of much at all that's "lighter" about a Linux machine. And the "legacy" apps on a Linux machine are far older than the Microsoft stuff.
If they have really made a linux-beos hybrid, that would be interesting. Isn't Be closed source?
If they've licensed some code from Be, and grafted that on linux, they'd have to GPL the whole thing, thus giving us access to part of the source of Be...
It's been a long time since the computer industry made a significant move into the mainstream home market. The last time was back in the C=64/ Vic 20 days. Recently the home PC market has been slowly growing but no big jumps. This iToaster and other low priced PCs are an indication that we may have another massive market thrust into the home/ home entertainment industry with Linux at the forefront.
The C=64 was a low end PC running a non-standard OS (the norm was CP/M or MS-DOS for the PC industry). The iToaster - a low end machine running a "non-standard OS". The $199 price sticker really rings a bell too, That was the price of the C=64 at it's height in popularity.
Why $199? That is the price that everyone finds acceptable for home electronics. Stereo Equipment, Bread Makers, Televisions, Nintendos, all sell for around $199. For some reason the American Consumer feels comfortable paying this much for home entertainment/ conveinience devices. I think that is one of the Reasons Comodore was so successful back in the 80's.
Everyone talks about Linux usability, Customer Support, and third party applications being the key to Linux's success. BULLSHIT. We all know that Linux has these things to one extent or another. IBM and Macitosh both had all of those and Microsoft ground them into the dirt. Look at the places where Linux has grown in Marketshare over Microsoft, The Server arena.
Internet servers and Smal LAN servers cost around $2000-3000. Add NT, MS Exchange & SQL Server and other net goodies : $1500-2000. The premium for the OS & tools is over 50%. Linux has massive penetration in these markets. Lesson - When the cost of the OS reaches a 50% of the hardware people start to shop for a new OS.
Now back to the iToaster, Cost of hardware = $199 Cost of OS = $0. If they used Win 95 they would increase their cost of goods by 50%.
Businesses have significant investment in Microsoft Products and are slower to respond to Market changes. Home users don't have this constraint. Individual households have little or no investment in current (Microsoft based) technologies and only need to interact with other systems through well defined STANDARDS based portals (HTTP, SMTP, POP, etc.).
Death knoll for Microsoft? I think not. But they are not going to have much trouble selling their initial 10,000 units of these iToasters (iToaster, eMac hmmmm... ). Dennis
And who is going to waste time cracking into their own box to gain root? I seriously doubt telnet is enabled on the boxes. The security of the box is no worse than a WebTV box. What could you possibly exploit once you get root? Ohhhh, you can modify the applications of your own machine! Whoopie.
It's nice that the article specifically stated that the low cost was part due to Linux being free as opposed to Windows. This could be a hot seller for schools, libraries, etc.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
mass marketing the net using a non MS system at that price just rules. Power to the people, dammit!
With the falling prices in hardware, the cost of a windows 95 license from microsoft becomes increasingly significant. I think we will see lots of manufacturers using free operating systems on their low-end machines. When the people who have purchased a cheap machine decide to upgrade to a more expensive computer, they'll probably feel more comfortable with having linux or *BSD on their new machine rather than windows 95 because they are used to linux or *BSD (or whatever OS was on their cheap computer). This should not only dispel the rumors that linux is hard to use, but should also convince more computer manufacturers to offer linux on their entire line of computers.
In other words, traditional PC's are weighted down with "legacy" applications, specifically Windows and Office. What a beautiful way of phrasing the problem!
I like the tone of this article,
--Lenny
According to the article, the company claimed that, because that platform was new, it has no viruses or bugs. I agree that it has no viruses, but all nontrivial software has bugs. The company needs to recognize this and work to fix the bugs, or else the platform will end up like windows.
-- Paperwork is the embalming fluid of bureaucracy, maintaining an appearance of life where none exists.
"Also, because the operating system and office applications are new, there are no existing
viruses or bugs which affect the platform"
Cool, so if you write a new operating system with new office apps, it will be bug free?
I can understand trying to sell affordable computers, as I manage a computer store, but this stuff is really starting to annoy me.
When these type of machines come out, they market it as the greatest invention since sliced bread, and maybe 80% of the consumers buy into this wonderful invention that only cost $200. In reality, the devices are about as powerful as a LeMans powered by a hamster wheel. The consumer gets unhappy and taken again, can't return it because of the "no refunds" policy, and gets paranoid about the computer buisness and these fly-by-night operations in general.
Where it really annoys me is when people buy into the marketing, come to my shop, and ask for a Quad-PIII-500 with Warp Drive and expect to only pay $200 for it. No. It don't work that way. Personal computers, like it or not, are extremly individualistic machines. There are many options and many price ranges. You can't buy a '99 Camaro for $1000 from the dealerships, and the same type of reasoning applies to PCs. Get over it, consumers! Next time you by a computer, please get someone PC literate to go shopping with you. Quit looking for the cheapest way out. If you do, these marketers will keep on riding you, just like a bad car salesman or insurance salesman....
I hate when articles criticize Linux for the nonexistance of 3rd party apps. What do they call Wordperfect? What about KOffice? Civ:CTP? There aren't many, but that doesn't mean there are *none*.
æeee!
What in the world do they mean by "runs on a hybrid operating system, taken from both Linux and BeOS"?
Are they licensing some features of BeOS and making them run on Linux? Highly doubtful. Did they write something from scratch? Yeah right. Do they have some sort of BeOS-looking GUI that runs on Linux? (non-X-based?)
--
Speaking of security issues and newbie users, I recently discovered, by chance actually, that a friend of mine was running her Linux box with NO root password. She'd been tooling around on the net for weeks, and hadn't ever put in a root password during installation (that was possible with Slackware 3.6, it has you create a password as part of the setup for Slackware 4.0). I discovered it by chance when she sent me a piece of email. I read the header to find her dynamically assigned IP address and telnetted to the machine. My regular account on the machine was gone (she's reinstalled since I'd last been over) so I tried 'root' and *wham* I was at a root prompt with no password prompting.
That sort of thing is going to happen a lot what with all the newbies buying shrinkwrapped RedHat/SuSE/Caldera OSes at superstores. It's going to give Linux a bad name when it starts happening because Joe Hotdog put Linux on his machine at work with no thoughts about security. I predict it will eventually lead many businesses to ban Linux on the desktop.
I predict it will eventually lead many businesses to ban Linux on the desktop.
.rhosts file and you could login. As long as the UID and GID of the file were correct, you would log right in - no problems.
Want to put some money there? You haven't been in the actual real world have you? At RCA I could gain root on any Unix machine there by just using NFS and using a UID that was privledged on the machine I wanted to get into. Setup a
Under Windows 95 it was a lot easier, I just walked over the the machine and turned it on. Under NT 99% of the WS had 'administrator' as the password. Of course, I could simply remove the entire HD and make it a slave drive on my OWN workstation.
Here we have a new Word macro virus every week, and you think that Linux is going to be banned on the desktop just because a lot of people forget to give 'root' a password? Give me a fucking break, you're clueless.
>Did you miss the part about 'single or limited-use'
No. Why should that bother me? Linux is already used in embedded applications. I see nothing wrong with the creation of internet appliances, and I'd rather that the next generation run Linux rather than WinCE.
Yes, I know that Linux supports "legacy" apps from the old Unix school. I recognize that my xterm is emulating a terminal which was emulating a teletype. Most everyone considers Office and Windows modern, though. Still, I think of them as sadly necessary baggage to upkeep some older files and programs.
Linux can be somewhat lighter because you can trim it down much further and still have a functional system. Plus, it is very customizable toward a particular task. Clean design, and source code availability makes it very attractive for the embedded market. Then there is the cost...
--Lenny
Well, I guess that I should say what I mean, rather than assume that everyone can figure it out (I wasn't as clear as I thought I was, I guess). What I meant was "within a set time frame with the same overall level of development" you cannot get something for free.
I have become really tired of conspiracy theories about stuff, people who believe that life isn't fair (more or less), that people with money get all the breaks (not as such, except if you can afford good attorneys), that "it's who you know as opposed to what you know" and so on. People take the same point of view and apply this to consumer goods and expect that there is some magic 400% margin that they can get around if they just know the tricks. In the vast majority of cases (at least in the US), that just isn't true.
So, when they come into a small shop, they are often coming in with the idea that they will get a huge discount for the same goods or that they they can bully the shopkeeper into dipping into his 400% markup and giving them a big discount. The markups aren't there, the discounts aren't there. As a poor student, I did a lot of bargain hunting and if you are willing to spend the time, you can get a few of whatever for very little, most of the time, if you aren't too proud to go through trash. The reality is that those same great bargains aren't on anyone's shelf.
It reminds me of when I was much younger (16) and had friends who were dealers (most of them became cops), and they would snort whenever they would hear about a bust that netted coke with a "street value" of 14 bazillion dollars. "Boy, I wish that I could find that street," they would say. The reality is that the margins even there were limited.
TANSTASFL, y'all.
From someone peripherally involved in this, the machine runs BeOS, but with Microworkz' own window dressing on it. I don't know what the "hybrid" deal is - as someone mentioned, BeOS is POSIX compliant, so many Unix or Linux apps could be provided. However, no X windows.
They'll be bundling our BeOS office package, Gobe Productive. Which most definitely does NOT run on Linux.
I needed a good laugh. Now my wife want's to know why I am laughing out loud at the computer.
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
I know what you mean.
Geez. Every time I see a frustrated hypersensitive consumer in a PC store I run. It's not really fair to either consumers or PC technicians. And I said PC techs not PC enthusiasts. We have P -techs because the 30 year old stale designs of systems we work with are the result of Luddite refusing to read. If more people would read we'd be vacationing on the moon by now.
For those of you who'll probably flame me about untested theories, I've seen you people before. Let me just say this, I don't need to step in a pile of shit to know it's a pile of shit, and I certainly don't need run lab tests on how people think to get an idea of how they think. I see people every day, and believe me some of the things they put themselves through scare the shit out of me. I really feel sorry for Luddites sometimes as much as they piss me off.
The world isn't complicated. It's complex meaning all the difficulty arises from having billions of participants who behave according to quite simple rules of sociology.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
How long will it take for someone to discover misconfigured apps/broken non-updated versions of apps/some shiny new 3xpl017 and r00t all those boxen?
;-)
I think those 'cheap PCs' together with clueless newbies is a recipe for a disaster.
They will probably need some scheme for updates -- and updating via the net is making everything depend on a single point of failure.
This is a real security nightmare but, OTOH, I guess it'll be fun to r00t and beowulf all them
They are trying to make use of that big fat list of real pc orders that didn't ship...
...what was the greatest thing BEFORE sliced bread?
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
Read this
celeron 366 oc'd to 450 (easy, 100% sucess) 64 megs of ram (barely enough for win98) bh6 nVidia TNT card... I've built a whole PC for someone based on this for about $750, but that was a few months ago. it's about as highend as you can get (celerons are faster then pIIs at the same clock rate for most things) it wasn't really that exspensive. installing windows was a bitch, but other then that there was only about 20 minutes of work puting it together. PC retailers charge *way* to much money
---------------
Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
> This thing might make it if they kick in a DVD player, and digital TV tuner.
This is a 486..486s can't handle high quality video, they can barely handle X. If you read the article youd see that the iToaster is for web browsing and word processing, not a DVD player/TV.
Why not read about the article and look at the purpose of the iToaster, instead of shooting your mouth off. No-one cares about what you think you could do with a 486.
Bitchslapped? Give Rob a bitchslap from bitchslapped.com.
so gassbag is moving into settops eh? its a good move...i think beos could make inroads partnering with the microwerkz type of vendors i.e. small, looking for growth, and low cost structure. of course, CE is going to be pushed into this market fairly quickly. the main thing is as a previous poster mentioned to keep everything based on SMTP, HTTP, etc. all open standards...we cant let bill impose some settop standard based on AETVF or whatever. short ATT!
-- your knees hurt, don't they?
God, I'm glad I'm not a Windows user anymore.
Yes, Yes, Yes ..... BeOS ... .. start developing for the BeOS.
I wil get the most powerful system running
on that machine
Unix programmers
Huh? I bought a mystery 386 that had a NE2000 compat. & 4 megs of RAM for $10.
I added 4MB of RAM and a 200MB HD and now it serves my house cable modem for 4 other machines.
That's* what I call an internet appliance..
shit, you can by old Compaq celeron's w/32MB of ram for $400 on the Net. (no monitor)
I'm suprised you're not breaking an NDA there, Bob!
I can't fit bagels in the slots. Half of the time, my toast comes out charred and burnt. There's no easy way to clean out the crumbs without making a mess....
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
I see this as an attempt for M$ to spread future FUD about Linux. "Once again, Windows is the only OS for serious, high end users. Linux is only used on some commercial dirt cheap systems because it's cheap and power is not important on those systems. Use Windows NT: Creating innovations of the future."
Pull out the FUD shield!!
Linux: Long live the source code.
Female, and still is the greatest thing!
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-