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The High Tech Sweatshop
Its 4:30 am on a Friday and I just finished the last Mountain Dew. We ran out of coffee hours ago, the remains of it now black sludge at the bottom of the pot. The buildings air conditioning went off sometime the previous night and its up to almost 90 degrees in the server room. The two volunteer hackers on the staff went home after 12 hours, leaving me and the sysadmin...
This is a normal day for me.
I'm a systems engineer in the client services division of a network security software company. Basically what that means is that when networks break, I fix them.
I am 22 years old, I make a large multiple of the national average salary, and if I cashed in my stock options I could buy a very nice house. I'm also sixty pounds overweight, I sleep an average of four hours a night, and I have several ulcers. I usually spend about 60 hours a week at the office, but I'm on call 24 hours a day seven days a week. If I was honest with myself Id probably say I worked about one hundred hours last week. This is a normal life for someone working in this industry.
We live in a world today that runs on information. And people want all of it now. When was the last time you actually wrote out a personal letter to someone, on paper, in pen? Why bother when E-mail is so much faster and easier? But what goes on behind the scenes when you hit the "send" button? There are thousands of people out there just like me who have titles like "Network engineer" and "Systems administrator". We keep that information flowing, and we get paid what seems like a lot of money to do it. If you've been in the market for a good network admin lately you know what I mean. The market is pushing the salary into the 100k+ plus range for someone with the necessary experience to handle even a relatively small network, never mind what the really large companies like State Farm insurance or Wells Fargo bank have.
I started work on this problem with the sysadmin on Thursday before the close of business, getting things set up, preparing for the changes etc... The company was switching internet service providers that night because the previous one hadn't provided the level of service they needed. This entailed changing the IP addresses, and DNS configurations of every machine in the building, running three different operating systems, probably two hundred machines all told, then setting up the servers, routers, and switches necessary to get it all running. It's a big job, but with six people working on it we figured we could get it done before start of business the next day. Normally you would do this kind of thing over a weekend, but the ISP could either do the changeover tonight, or wait till next week, and we needed to be online before Monday.
Getting back to what happens when you press the send button. You expect the computer to send the message, and that the person it was sent to will receive it. What happens to the message then is an incredibly complex series of storage, sending, routing, switching, redirecting, forwarding and retrieving, that is all over in a fraction of a second, or at most a few minutes. But you don't care how or why it gets there, only that it does, and this is all you should care about. After all you don't have to know how your cars engine works in order to drive it right. But someone has to know in case it breaks. And when your email breaks you expect someone to fix it. It doesn't matter what time it is, or where the message is being sent, you want it to get there now.
Its now 8 am and the network is still down. We've managed to isolate a routing problem and are in the process of fixing it. The ISP gave us the wrong IP addresses and now we have to go back and redo all two hundred machines in the building. The router was crashing and we couldn't figure out why. Two hours on the phone with the vendors support, and three levels of support engineer later we fix it. People are starting to come in to work and ask why they can't get their email. The changeover process takes us about three hours and finally everyone has the right IP, but things still aren't working right. A bunch of people use DHCP for their laptops and the DHCP people cant get out to the net. The CEO of the company is one of those people...
So what do we do? Well we hire people to take care of the network. And we give them benefits and pay like any normal employee. We also give them pagers, cell phones, a direct phone lines to their houses so that any time, any where, we can get them, because the network could go down, and we DEPEND on that network, and those people. This is where things go skew from the normal business model.
All compensation is basically in exchange for time. The only thing humans have to give is their time. When I pay you a salary it is in exchange for me being able to use your abilities for a certain period of time every year. The assumption is that the more experienced or knowledgeable you are the more your time is worth. This works fine when you are being paid a wage, but salaried employees aren't. They exist under the polite fiction that all their work can be done in a forty hour period every week, no matter how much work there is. We all know this isn't the case of course. And when it comes to Systems administrators and network engineers that polite fiction isn't so polite. In exchange for high salaries and large stock options the company owns you all day and all night, every day and every night. You are "Mission critical". High salaries become an illusion because when it gets down to it your hourly rate isn't much better than the assistant manager of the local Pep Boys.
I finally went home at 1 that afternoon. I couldn't stay awake any more and if I didn't leave right then I wouldn't have been able to drive home. The funny thing is I felt guilty for leaving. Things still weren't working quite right, and I felt like I should have stayed until they were. Even funnier is that I volunteered for this. The only part of the job that I actually had to do was to change a few IP addresses and configure the firewall, but I thought I'd lend a hand, and I couldn't do the firewall till everything else was working anyway. My wife hadn't seen me in two and a half days, and I could barely give her a kiss when I walked through the door and collapsed on my bed. The SysAdmin was fired a few hours after I left. Back to work Monday morning.
Currently, the IT sector is a pure employee
driven market. Whatever you decide you'll
put up with in exchange for being able to buy
the food which is under lock and key in our
culture is what seems to be alright and
sets the standard. I know a lot of nice
IT positions that can be done in 40h a week more
or less, so why don't you just go out looking
for a new job? Cashing in the stock options
sounds like a good start and a nice place to live
;-)
On a technical note, how about using ip masq'ing
on the gateway? That way you'd only have to
change ip addresses on the gateway, not on
every frigging computer in the building if you
decide to swap ISP's .
Bottom line: Don't expect your boss or any other
person for that matter to care for
you or your health or sanity if you don't do so
in the first place.
Regards,
Uwe
They are taking advantage of you. If you don't
do something about it; your managers aren't going
to change things; why would they?
That is easier said than done of course; but with
the market the way it is you will get a return to
sanity if you ask.
We aren't ready for a network admin union... yet.
yes, yes yes. just about anything else can go wrong at my job, and people will be willing to let me take care of it in my spare time. but god forbid management can't send email...! or worse, they haven't gotten any email for the last two hours. "Is there something wrong with our Internet connection? I haven't gotten any email yet today." *clickity click* "Nope it's fine" "Are you SURE?" grrr...
I agree 100% with the spirit of the article, which is that sysadmin work takes up far too many hours, is dehumanizing, and unrewarding - except for the money... but once you're earning a living wage, there's more to life than money.
I wouldn't be so harsh on the author about not setting up DHCP etc. Setting up a well-designed network takes time and planning. Bosses want results now now now. These things are often incompatible. Setting things up correctly saves you a lot of time, but (if your bosses are fools) they'll never give you enough breathing room to set things up.
I have lived this life for far too long...
The only solution I found was consulting and the only reason I chose that was the shooting pain in my arms no longer allows me to type as much.
Now I work 1 week out of 4, at most typing 2 hours a day for the last 3 weeks AND my arms still hurt!
Of course the company I am consulting for wants me on call as well but at least I get paid for the hours.
This is what happens when you work 100 work weeks.
But the real problem is the life of an admin will only get worse as the internet becomes more critical to more businesses.
I pose the question:
What changes need to take place to improve system/network administrators working conditions.
And anyone who claims that the money makes it all ok is completely wrong. Otherwise why did I just turn down a six figure full time job? I can tell you it might have something to do with _never_ really being off work, imagine if you will being on vacation (ie. a weekend off out of town) and having to leave dinner with your girlfriend to fix yet another problem. Or it could be the fact that my wrists no longer function properly due to years of abuse.
ps. the guy who claims that all this work is the guys own fault hasn't worked in the real world corporate enviroment where rolling out DHCP or any software across all platforms and systems requires a minor miracle
(although Winblows doesn't seem to pay attention to router or DNS addresses it gets via DHCP... who's the bonehead at Microsoft who did that???)
Huh? Windows dhcp works just fine here. Only problem I've had is win95 not releasing it's address during shutdown. So if you bring the same machine up on a different subnet you have to release the address and get a new one. But I've not had problems with the DNS settings.
Piece of advice.. Get your degree. You'll not regret it.
Obviously, infojack is living in the world of Perfect Networks and Network Planners(tm). Most of us don't.
1. The guy wro wrote in probably didn't design the network, or the components therein. Anyone even remotely familiar with network/system administration knows all too well that fixing or remodelling someone else's "baby" by the book is virtually impossible. Unless you know all the quirks and "genious" solutions, at times you'll need to "wrongdo" by visiting the users desk. Fixing other people's mistakes is an absolute bitch, and all honour is due to those who do.
2. What is the DHCP equivalent for routers?? I would really like to know, cos it would save me a _lot_ of work.
If he's working day and night, when the hell is he writing articles for slashdot?
I work for a local pornography company- we broadcast live web feeds of lesbians engaging in occulo-aural sex. But sometimes our ISP fucks us over and the connection goes down- every moment that our web feeds are down, someone out there can't jack off, and we lose money. So often at 4am friday I am there making the rounds- router, server, ISP tech support, router ...
Of course it is a nice fringe benefit that the girls will suck me off whenever I fix a major outage. But I still wonder if it is worth it at times.
I too share the same story with the last company I worked for. I pulled in an average of 70 hours a week or more for a small company with 16 or so people and only getting paid 25k a year (major rip off). They would have everyone do 6 other people's jobs.. your systems admin would also be your project manager, out house tech support, in house nt system support, etc.. At times I would sleep at work because there was just too much to do. My schedule would be work.. go to school.. come back to work.. sleep at work.. wake up.. same routine all over again the next day and the next day. One day the RAID array went down.. 2 drives in a RAID 5 configuration went bad. After pulling in a 36 hour shift trying to get the array back up, I went home and collapsed.. after 4 hours of sleep to come back in to fix it, I was fired.. guess the only thing I can say right now is that it's all not worth it.. it's all not worth worrying over. Corporate world can kiss my ass =)
"Any kid can download linux and teach themselves, which is a good thing when viewed abstractly, but it will definitely result in a lot more people on the market who, whether intentionally or not, grossly exagerate and misrepresent their own skills. This can only be a bad thing, it will bring ill-repute on the sysadmin profession."
A more likely scenario is that they will already be skilled with UNIX because they have CS degrees instead of some MCP crap.
And you are one to talk? From the way you talk, you would think that these systems are a piece of pie to maintain and that DHCP is god. DO you have even the slightest clue as to how complicated these systems are? Even the intranet of one company is full of sophisticated technology, software, hardware etc. If you think that there is some magic bullet "right" way to do these things and that it simply works all the time, then you are just as bad as the below average Windows 98 user who calls into a tech support line asking why his/her "cup holder" doesn't work right. Pathetic.
You know, honestly, I work for one of the top academic medical facilities in the world, and we just opened up a new half a billion dollar building. How much problems did we have? Not many, because we've got damn fine sysadmins and netops punks. With 7 million in networking gear, we were up and running on the start date. We've got 90+ mission critical systems, and none of which have major downtimes. And we work 40 hours a week. Sound impossible? Not really, when you've got trained staff who know what's going on.
I think that we're overlooking a few things. 1) In terms of pay, IS/IT is paid damn well compared to most professions.
2) It's your own fault for going after the big bucks. You should at least have the forethought to think "Well, I'm 22 and have my BS in CS. Am I really worth 70+k a year or will I have to bust my ass for it?".
3) Sys Admin is a thankless job. Quite frankly, IS is representative of being a SysAdmin. No one cares if you're doing things right, or if things are going well, but it's your job to make sure things are going right otherwise the entire weight of the organization will be bearing down on you.
I think that people need to realise that a) Money doesn't buy happiness and b) Big money means more work and more responsibility.
Covet those cushy IS jobs like I have. Sure, fair market price could demand that I make more, but hey, is it really worth it?
One of the major premises (sp?) is that it is easy. If it is so easy, why, according to your estimation, is 95% of the trouble due to operator errors?
It may be easy to get things running (or not) but if it is not easy to get things running right, what good is it. If it is so easy, why do we need MCSEs, etc?
Are the wizards really only good for helping you make a mess? You mean they don't ask the necessary questions to configure things properly?
I could go on, I hope you get the drift.
A Nony Mouse.
Yea, I see them and you know what. I don't care. I'm sure most people don't care either. I know what they mean, and it doesn't make reading much harder. Sure it looks dumb, and sure it can be avoided, but I harldy think it is really a cause for major flames.
Sometimes it just isn't the benchmark it is made up to be.
We're on day 6 of a server crash. Management is too cheap to replace the darned box, and Compaq (Digital) is scratching their heads wondering why it's not working at the hardware level.
Meanwhile the data has been scrambled to 4 different boxes as no one box has enough disk space.
Yech.
We've been through 3 ISP changes in the last 2 years. With masq running on our router (a linux box), the changes have been painless and easy. Well, ok, the last one didn't do the router change on their end, but I don't count that.
I'd LOVE to find a job where they actually planned things out. Where I work it's all fly by the seat of your pants and pray. Underqualified people running a distributed PC/Server network over 50 small sites across the nation. It is hell. If I can outlast the current "lead" tech, I'm going to institute some PLANNING and CONTROLS on this disaster area.
Its funny all the mcp and mcse at the consulting firm I'm at don't know or can't figure out how to install configure linux and can't get the drift on how to use a console? Wonder who's the real loser.
Why oh why oh why must you continue to post in MS-ASCII? I will not pay the Billtax, damnit, and it is offensive in the extreme that Slashdot of all places should expect me to!
That's almost as ridiculous as a guy calling himself Banshee.
Pnyy zr byq-snfuvbarq, ohg abj naq gura V'q yvxr
gb ernq fbzrguvat gung unfa'g orra Ovyyrq gb qrngu.
Every time I read one of these "my job is killing me" whines on Slashdot, I'm amazed that the author puts up with such conditions. I've been a Unix/Winblows sysadmin for six years, and in that time I've had four jobs, none of which required the input of labor that these sorts of articles mention.
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've probably only worked a total of 200 hours "overtime" (outside of an ordinary 40-45 hour week) in that whole six years, and only three occasions that I can recall were marathon weekend or all-nighters. I, too, make a much higher salary than most other 25-year-olds, yet I'm not killing myself. I wish I could tell you what I'm doing right or what you're doing wrong, but all I can offer is that I know there are much less demanding jobs available. Find one, before your ulcers and stress put you in the hospital.
So far I have seen a lot of complaining and a few answers. Has anyone thought about asking the boss to go hourly? Salaried positions are nice, but you can ask to be put on a hourly wage. This will accomplish 2 things - 1) get you some time off; 2) show management how much time you REALLY spend working on their systems. Worked for me when I was in IT.
This is slashdot. We shouldn't have to fucking *BUY MICROSOFT* just to fucking read it! What the fuck???????????????
I know exactly what this guy went through. I used to work for a telecommunications company as well up here in Canada. I was the sole sys admin, and I had to run my butt off day after day for a very low salary (would equal around the 20 grand range in US funds). I was extremely stressed, and my home life was suffering. On call 24/7 - and 90% of the time it was for stupid reasons I would get called in (my mouse isn't working, etc).
Finally I had enough, found another job and quit. Now I am still running my butt off, but at least I have some benefits - like medical, dental, overtime (in my old work place, I was on salary, did not get any overtime pay, but if I worked less than 40hrs/week, my pay was docked...), etc.
My adivce for anyone in a similar situation... get out of it. No job is worth losing your family or your mind over!
That comes from giving Bill too many blowjobs.
>People work like this in every non-govenrment industry. My wife used to be a retail
Excuse me, I work as a do-all Administrator (LAN/WAN, server and application) in a government institution. I typically work 50+ hours at my desk per week, and countless at home doing administration that can only be done off hours. And yet, like so many others, I get paid for 35 hours per week.
Our networks are just as critical and we get dealt the same hand.
It's MS-ASCII. Slashdot has caved in to the Bill Side.
I t t g t o c m s m p p s M o t c M p y o y f m . ,
f h h o o u a y y u u i h i n h a S o o u o u i
i a i t s s s t e i c a n - s u t u c n
y n t n g t U t t c t r i t A t ' r k d
o k g o a r n e t e o t r S i r o i
u I n a i m t h f s I e C n e f n
' d t x o a o r o s a I g g
m e t f o f o d I s
m t
Thank you! I find that most of the network problems that arise in an IT department, I am contracted out to three companies, are caused from poor administration. In this guys case he missed one simple rule, NO REPETITION, if it has to be done more than once, automate it, these are computers ya know. Though I like these people struggling hard to get the job done. They make this image that this is actually hard work. Which in the end pays me more for doing less.
Thanks monkeys!
This just doesn't follow. That's like saying a well-paid whore shouldn't complain that she gets beaten.
Certification is *not* good. It proves nothing. It's just a way for the certification people to make money. It doesn't help employers, because it proves nothing. 19/20 resumes that look good get weeded out in the phone call. 5/6 interviewees whose phone calls were ok get weeded out when they just can't pass muster in the interview. Certification is not a help. It's a harm.
"[Ulcers] its caused by a bacteria."
Some ulcers are caused by bacteria, and if they are, can be fixed by a $2 regime of antibiotics.
Some ulcers are not caused by bacteria. The easiest way to tell is to try the antibiotics and see if it helps - at least that is what my doctor did.
Otherwise Tagemet is a big, big help.
If you have an ulcer, you might want to avoid asperin or motrin. I had a friend who almost died from internel bleeding that way. Tylinol is a lot safer (but don't overdose or you will destroy your kidneys).
In short, see a doctor.
I worked for a small security/networking/intergration company for 4 years. I made 14000 a year and worked 50 + hrs a week. The consulting company got 60-125$ a hour for my time while about 10% of that. We had a minimum quota of what we needed to bill out. I had to earn at least 25 hours a week billable to get my current salary. So at 125hr * 25 = 3125$ my cut 313$ a week. Sick huh? Now I didnt have as much experience as the others but if I was worth 125$ an hour to the customer I should have atleast gotten 25-30k a year. Well, I quit and got a new job for 21000 MORE a year at another company. The owner pretty much never worked and took home about 50% of payroll.
Please, take your sob story somewhere else. You are here whining about your deplorable working conditions because you are either too much of a wuss to do something about it, or you secretly enjoy it. Not every job is similar to yours. I am a senior engineer at a rapidly growing applications hosting company. I make a decent salary (little less than 6 figures), stock options, great vacation and other benefits. I work, usually at most 50 hours a week. If we work our asses off we get tons of comp time. I am on call one week out of three and as we staff up more, that will likely become one week out of five. There are decent jobs out there, but the masochists among us prefer to stay at their horrible ones and deluge us with bitchfests. We feel no sympathy for you buddy...go find another job.
With an MS-CS, you should run far away from almost any job that has "admin" in its title, like {web,net,sys}admin. And CGI is for script kiddings and scripting kiddies alone. I guess there could be exceptions, but that doesn't mean the rule isn't usually true.
It's not a $2 run of antibiotics. It's two -- or sometimes three -- different prescriptions, and it's not just $2. I have physicians in the family who worked at the same place that the initial research was done. And I've had them myself.
There are two major causes of ulcers: the bacterium, H. pilori, and overuse of aspirin and company.
There are many newer and better drugs than Tagamet. Pepcid is now over the counter, and good. Tagamet can cause impotence. There are several other acid-blockers on the market via prescription that are much more effective. But you have to be careful. One friend of a friend died because his university health center misdiagnosed his stomach cancer as acid stomach, and these blocked it enough that it becme inoperable. You need a real scan down inside with a camera. This is serious stuff. Try to remember that ulcers are not to be toyed with. Colostomy bags can be a *favorable* outcome.
Courses will never get you any skills. Only you will. This is the whole of the problem -- that you think a course is what you need. It's not.
I'm curious... is $ 50k/year considered a good rate for a sys admin (linux, irix, solaris, bit of nt), w/ 2 years experience and a guaranteed 40-hour work week, (if over 40 one week, make up for it next week). Not terribly stressful, but do ya'll think its worth the lower salary?
Static Addresses are a pain in the ass. If you have a subnetted network, with Static IP's and move a workstation you have to configure the machine again. DHCP allows you to do what you have to do and not worry about what subnet/gateway a jack happens to be using.
To find which device is storming, get a flukemeter, stick it on the clients subnet where the network is purging to locate the bad NIC. There are also software tools to help you monitor your network, if you can't happen to locate the subnet of whatever problem you happen to be having.
What exploits are you referring to regarding DHCP?
Unless you have Founder Stock, you will never be compensated for the years of life they steal from you.
Let's face it: employers are there to get as much out of their slave employees as they possibly can while paying them as little as they possible can. Only Founders and other major stockholders get to convert your blood into cash. Think of it as indentured servitude, especially if you consider the IPA slave contracts.
I'd sure like to know your name, coward. You should be sued. And if that's not enough, you should lose your kneecaps.
I believed (and have been in almost the position with) everything in the article except:
./'ers, put money in a Roth IRA. You pay income tax on it now, but you don't pay any on the interest when you take it out in 40-50 years. Tax-free compounding interest upon tax-free compounding interest is the closest thing there is to free money.
./'ers looking for a job that before you accept an offer for a 100-hour per week job, you need to demand health insurance. So few employers seem to offer it these days that if you don't get it when you're hired, you never will. I've seen many a 20-odd year-old (including me) suckered out of health insurance, because they don't think that they'll ever get sick. But if something bad happens and you don't have health insurance, your life savings and your parents (and whoever else you can get to help you) can disappear in a matter of a few days. Stick-up for yourself while you can, and while you're still healthy. I watched a friend of mine die penniless and without proper health care from a degenerative brain disease. After working on two degrees for 7 years and working for a small engineering firm (designing RS485 boards) for another 5, he ended-up without enough money for food, much less enough to pay for the full-time nurse he needed. The only reason he didn't starve to death (he couldn't put on his own clothes much less cook or go grocery shopping) was because Meals on Wheels was kind enough to bring him one nice hot meal per day. (Off-topic: If you can, give to your local Meals on Wheels. I can't think of a greater gift than that of hot food to someone who can't provide it for themselves.) There's a lot of talk about a shortage of technical workers, but there is a larger shortage of technical jobs that pay above minimum wage where you are appreciated and you don't have to give away your soul.
"I make a large multiple of the national average salary"
I seriously doubt that. I'm 8 years older than you, have a Masters in Electrical Engineering, and I make less than high school-educated factory workers in this area. I made more co-oping at Qualcomm than I make now managing a network with 35 UNIX servers, 7 PRI's (even wrote my own custom RADIUS server to pull account info from a 15 year-old COBOL program and write $ charges back, yuck!), and multiple Internet connections using BGP. I haven't seen my house since Friday morning, and I've only put 4000 miles on my 14 month-old car (only go home 3-4 times per week). I have quite a few friends with EE degrees that I graduated college with who don't make an "average" salary (what's that? $30,000 a year?). The only ones making much more than that have sold-out and are doing sales for large respectable companies (like for cisco, Sprint and MCI) or are selling for Microsoft. I haven't figured-out a career-path in Engineering where I can make as much as several of my friends who work sales for cisco. I find it depressing that I worked so hard for so many years to learn enough for a job where I could have made more operating a fork lift. I say if you're making that much money (not that I believe it), then don't complain. Either be happy with it, or do someone a huge favor by recommending them for the job. I know I would appreciate an offer like that. I'm still trying to find a job where I can make enough money so that I can start an IRA. Yes, I'm 30 years old and have $0 in retirement. Advice for all of you 18 year-old
abt the stress: I'm concerned about my health because I don't sleep and I've gained about 20# per year over the past 6 years. I haven't found a job yet that provides health insurance. I suggest to all of you
White het men like you are the whole problem.
2 years of 50-60 hours *onsite* + weekends and evenings, constantly on call, etc.
Finally said "screw it" and walked.
Gardening is great, although I prefer cooking. I've gained weight because I can now devote more time to finding the perfect apple pie recipie.
(and my new work group help with the beta testing)
The "work time directive" or "flush toilets"?
I'll choose "flush toilets" thank you.
Sounds like someone is working for their computer rather than their computers working for them. Simplify, man!
He should have setup NAT to allow the stations to be moved a few at a time over the next few days.
This really points out a weakness in TCP/IP networking. (Or a strength depending on how you look at it.)
In the future, systems will be smarter, and there will be fewer techs. The computer industry is like the automobile industry.
BN
How much would you like to be paid to be gang-raped weekly by a major basketball team?
What, you wouldn't?
As you see, there are some kinds of abuse that money cannot defend. And 80 hour weeks is one of them.
I'm speaking from a male perspective here:
I think that we get a lot of self esteem from how well we perform at work. Many of us are overworked, but deep down, I think many of us like it that way. We complain a lot, but in many ways the crisis we always seem to be in at work is in many ways our own making. Even if we don't like it that way, we desire to make a good salary, and we will make many sacrifices for that. Actually, it is not so much the amount of money, but the sense that we are appreciated, and whether that comes from the high salary, or from the respect shown to us by our peers or our boss, it is very important to us.
Unfortunately, our personal life often suffers. If we are single, well, that is our own life we are ruining. But if we are married, and we neglect our wives, chances are that one day we will end up with a divorce. If we have children, and we fail to be a large part of their lives, then at best our children will be mal-adjusted individuals, and at worst they will become criminals.
I enjoy my work a lot, and I put a lot into it. But I find that the rewards, while great, are short lived. Am I going to remember that machine I did a great sys-admin job too? Well, I am not a sys-admin, but a math prof, but I find that the great paper I wrote and felt so good about, well, a year later I barely remember it, and the good feelings about it have changed into a sense of dissatisfaction or anticlimax.
I also spend a lot of time with my wife and children. I find that the short term rewards are not as great. I admit that I can get bored with playing 3 year old games, etc. But I find that the long term rewards are beyond measure. The sense of accomplishment, and the returned love, lasts not a few days, but for years and years.
I think that we would like to leave our mark on humanity - that when we die, that what we did will be important, and be remembered. But that computer we maintained so well will be a pile of broken companants. The software I wrote will soon be long forgotten. Even if I did something great, like invent Linux, in a few years it will be outdated.
But if I am a good husband and a good father, I will leave a legacy that will last for generations. Perhaps I will not be in the history books, but I will have played a powerful role in improving the lives of those around me.
Even Linus Torvolds said that he felt his greatest achievement was his family. He created an OS that has revolutionised computing, and now he has a really cool job at Transmeta. But he knows what is important.
We live in a free country. We are not forced into slave labor. We can make choices about much we give to our work, even if we need to change jobs to do it. Work is important, and we should strive to do well, but we should not make it our lives.
If we choose to give a large portion of our time and effort to our wives and families, we will do far more to maintain the fabric of society and improve the lives of those around us than we can ever do through our jobs.
He's probably talking about a laptop. You know, you take your laptop to work, boot up and get an ip address etc. Then you take it home and boot it on your LAN and it doesn't work. Why? Because it kept the address it got from the office network. Well that address won't work on your home brew LAN now will it? So you've got to release the address and poll for a new one. It's a bothersome little quirk with win95. NT doesn't suffer from it though.
Sir, I think you are perfectly suited for a career in management. You have an uncanny nack for speaking on that which you have no understanding of.
There are likely a million different reasons why this network was configured the way it was. I myself can think of at least three different ways this network could have been configured differently to facilitate smooth transitions in situations such as this. And believe me, not one of them would have included DHCP. But since I'm not intimately familiar with why this particular network was established the way it was, I'm not going to tear this guy a new one over what a crappy config job he did (or perhaps had no hand in configuring).
Personally I think the problem was with the structure/organization of the company. Either they did a piss poor job recruiting their sysadmin, didn't hire enough full-time help for him(or her), or they just handled the entire situation poorly by outright firing the sysadmin. The way it stands now, they just made an already ugly situation even uglier by firing the guy. Who's going to clean up the mess now?
My room mate, not a tech worker, will probably never see that salary.
This doesn't always work. In fact I've made the timeout only a couple of hours way in advance of an upcoming change and then - nada.
Certifications and degrees do not prove knowledge. I've seen all too many
people wandering around with certifications and/or degrees who couldn't config
their heads out of a paper bag.
Um, can you spell CCIE? All certifications are *not* created equal. If other companies followed Cisco's certification model, and provided realistic environments for network certification
exams (serial console, baby), maybe I'd think twice before circular filing resumes with MCSE under the heading "Experience"...
The point, however, is that certifications alone do not make one great. When it all comes down to the wire, knowledge is what really counts.
I couldn't agree more...but a true certificate is indicative of that knowledge. May our community have a comprehensive, hands-on certification method that CAN prove knowledge!
Winston
I'm 19, in love with a girl who I hope to be my wife someday. My passion is system administration, and that's where I'm heading professionally, more or less no matter what. I was about to head for college, for Comp.sci, but three days ago I decided to give up that plan, and follow the gut feeling that I've had for 2 years now. I want to make my own way, continue hacking around like I've done it in the past two years. I have plans for my own company, and also a solid product plan.
You are making the biggest mistake of your life. You will realize this when you are 25.
I must tristfully relate that most of us never *get* such "paper", as we are Unix programmers, not MS tech-support. This is not universally true, but it is true enough for most of us that I shall enunciate it. :-)
Look under the heading, "What are the Gotchas?"
the only gotcha i see there is if somebody sets up a rogue dhcp server and i dont really see where that is to much of a problem. detecting such a server is would be trivial and it would be highly unlikely that somebody would set up a server like that accidentally so knowing how to deal with that individual would also be easy.
3 years ago i was hired as a "Web Administrator" for a nonprofit organization that wanted a big web presence. Graduating with a degree in English, I jumped at the chance to make 27k/yr, that's right 27k, for a job I didn't know how to do. Unfortunately it was 5 jobs i didn't know how to do.
I "only" worked 10-11 hrs a day, and very often from home on weekends, but I had to maintain a headless server running some ancient version of slackware and do all web site scripts and applications, and my god, this organization had lots and lots of wonderful ideas for things to do online. And of course all the linux sys admin and network services had to be managed too. I quit after 9 months and went back to grad school, where I can pick my own 20 hrs. a day and pay to do it. But hey, my english dept does have a kick ass web site now!
Ever heard of something called DHCP relay?
I've set up a single linux dhcp server handling
a few dozen subnets, and haven't had a single problem for
6 months before I left the job.
If you use a Cisco router, just specify 'ip helper-address'
on each interface, and on the dhcp server, define a
separate scope for each subnet.
Only two systems to manage (linux and cisco) for thousands
of clients, and no broadcast storms.
>PS. I'd recommend gardening to anyone. Wrist deep .idl
> in dirt is a great balance to figuring out
> files...
I tried that, but my sprinkler system just ended up looking like a coax network.
At least termination problems on a hose are really obvious.
If it wasn't wrong for you to bitch before your reached the "truly dissatisfied" state, why are you bitching about him doing it?
And maybe you got a lot of judgemental opinons (There's NO reason he should have to put up with crap from anyone. If he doesn't like it he should quit, plain and simple) when you were bitching too. Did judgemental advice help you realize that that was the right solution for you?
I suppose I'm bitching about your bitching about his bitching, providing my own judgemental advice for you, just as you did for him. Think about it.
Since when does someone's admin skills directly correlate with one's html skills? I wasn't aware that you needed to use html to assign ip's to a group of machines. I think we can forgive his sloppy html if we can forgive that your post "have" poor grammar.
Wuuhh...wuuhh... indeed.
Ichabod
Sadly, a great many people don't want _real_ certifications in this industry. Look at the CNE when it started - it was harsh! You really had to know what you were doing.
...
Of course, it was also very hard. 5 years later it was a cracker-jack box certification. Not that MCSE took anywhere near that long to reach that point
Get real yourself. I graduated only a few years ago, and there were plenty of people in CS (and other technical/engineering majors) who weren't there to learn, but rather to get a certificate which said they had learned. I know of one graduate who got high honors by being good at giving the outward appearance of being a model student and sucking off the work of smarter people so he could get his A's.
The guy you're responding to is just pointing out that there are plenty of bozos, not that everyone is a bozo, or that the old days were better. Unfortunately the bozos outnumber the non-bozos, just as they always did.
My mother is a drilling foreman. She works on location 7 days on/7 days off, usually with another foreman, which allows for some eating and sleeping. She loves coming home for a week, and she finds her job exhilarating and fascinating. The 7 on/7 off system works for her company, also. There are obvious advantages to having one team work through a problem continuously instead of passing off the baton and spending precious time explaining to the fresh team what has already been tried.
She is a techie on a macro scale--she manages complex, mission-critical equipment in a situation where downtime is unacceptable. Maybe techies could exert the necessary pressure and get themselves a similar system. Half a life is a lot better than nothing, and you might enjoy your work more (and even be more productive) if you had regularly scheduled leisure time.
A pertinent word from Aldous Huxley:
Many [people] are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or develop symptoms as a neurotic does. They are normal not in what may be called the absolute sense of the word; they are normal only in relation to a profoundly abnormal society.
I mean is her clitor a flamebait? Wow...
My penis is a fishbait..
Been there. All I can suggest is that you make a serious effort to spend more time playing and less time working. When I left my last job, I had 8 weeks vacation accrued, and a real bad attitude. I took two months off working, and now I limit my work week to 50 hrs on regular weeks, and anytime I work more than that, I take off a day or half day in the following week.
This has really helped me be a lot nicer person overall (and my wife REALLY likes that). I have always met folks in high positions who DO appreciate my effort, and have thus always had stellar reviews and reccomedations for future employment.
Good luck, and stay sane.
Well now... I'm looking at this with Netscape on Solaris, and I see loads of question marks where there should be apostrophes (like John Katz used to). Since I can't see loads of flames about this, that must mean that you are all using Internet Explorer, and the results of the OS poll were a complete lie.
Tom
I am just out of college and working my first "real" job. I worked for the college setting up and supporting networks, but that wasn't anything that bad, people over me got yelled at when things didn't work right. But now, it took me months to get the job I have because I said up front at every interview, "If you are looking for someone to work 100 hours on salary and never be with his family, DON'T hire me, as my work WILL NOT get more than half my life." I got turned down for close to 50 positions. Finally it all paid off. Now I work at a company where I walk in the door at 7:30AM, walk out at 4:45PM and I am on call 1 of every 3 weekends. No more is asked and no more is expected. I get paid above the average for someone of my little experience, have a life, and will be "moving up the ladder" very soon. It can be done, you just have to be strong up front and be willing to look hard for a while.
You ASS-U-ME too much. I don't screen based on gender or sexual preference. I screen based on student group membership, and/or major. Again, it has been my experience that women's studies majors and members of student women's orgs and GLB orgs are much greater legal risks than others. My boss agrees with my assessment of the situation.
My job is (among other things) to reduce legal risk for the company. Not effect progressive social change.
There's nothing illegal about discriminating based on major or student organization affiliations. Sorry bud.
You wrote:
"If you have to go to a user's desk to do something, then you're doing something wrong."
I see where you're coming from, but in my job as a network admin, what it really comes down to is that the users want someone experienced (i.e. me) to hold their hand every once in a while. And I'm not going to blow them off or be condescending to them - having good relations with your coworkers is good for your job and your career.
So basically I agree with the thrust of your article (in a medium to large network, not using DHCP/BOOTP is *dumb* or lazy) but there are good reasons to visit (l)users that have nothing to do with technical issues.
So our sister facility (that our MIS dept services also) in Garfield NJ decides they want to move stuff around and add a security system.
:)
We (way up here in Highland NY) get a phone call 2pm and are told "I can't get on the AS/400" so the usual 30 minutes of attempting to figure out what really is wrong with the user over the phone.
We then finally pull from them that the "security" guys were just cutting(!) some "phone lines."
Well as it turns out that "phone line" was our Cat 5 line from the upstairs office facility to the downstairs production floor. There goes 35 connections!
So if we leave now (2ish) we will get there at 5 and they will have left. So we just finish up the usual 12 hour day here in Highland and then run home and grab a bite to eat, change into "sweatshop" clothing (from khaki's to shorts) and head down to Garfield. 2 hour trip, one way. We get there, all the lights are off, can't find the panel. Time to light the way with a flashlight.
Anyway, its about 105 degrees with about 80 percent humidity and about 11 hours of work running 800 feet of pure hell through concrete, brick, wood, and what seemed to be like butter: suspended ceilings
Did I mention the whole MIS dept is me and one other guy? For 300 users (most god-awful PCs) and 3 locations (all of which are 2+ hours away from each other.
Just another lovely day in MIS. Remember folks: the MIS folks don't exsist untill someone can't send email!
Or at least get paid like one.
Seriously though, I've been trying to get my damned foot in the door for quite a while now with no luck. Even for low-level Jr Admin type jobs, I get shooed out because I don't have 2-3 years active experience in Unix Sys Admining. It just seems to me, if I did have 2-3 years in, I wouldn't be going after these measily $40k Jr level jobs. If it's not that, then the companies want someone with business experience in NT Admin, 3 or 4 types of Unix Admin, Novell, know everything about configuring LAN/WAN equipment, and many other things for $30-40k. Yet there appears to be people with MCSE, Novel certs, etc going after these things. What the heck's it take to catch a break 'round here??
Oh wow. You get paid much more than the average salary in the United States (which is around $20,000-$25,000/year). That's what comes with the job. If you want, I'm sure you could find a 40 hour/week job at the local McDonald's that would solve your overwork problem.
Basically, there are billions of people in the world that work more than you, and get less money for it. Overall, you're pretty damn well off. At least you don't work 100 hours/week and have to live off $100/year.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I've known a lot of sysadmins (as well as being one myself), and most of the ones I know don't have to work severely extended hours over long periods of time unless one of the following conditions exist:
1) You're working for a tiny company that cannot afford a real IS staff. This is usually the case for those poor idiots who are on call 24x7x365. Any real IS shop has an on-call rotation that lets people get some time.
Just *think* before you take the kind of job with that sort of requirement. You cannot take vacation if you are on call all the time. You'll just end up physically ill and mentally infirm.
2) You get off on the power. A lot of sysadmins seem to whine and whine about the time they spend, but they LOVE the power. Spending insane amounts of time on the system makes them feel important. Users paging them at all hours makes them feel needed. Frankly, it is rather sick (including myself in that category 8-) ).
3) You're not very good at your job. The successful sysadmin should not be bothered much at all after hours (barring the usual unforseen problems). If you're getting chewed up by failures you need to find the underlying cause. If you're getting chewed up by user demands it is time to either hire more staff or cut back on the users' expectations.
The job market for system and network admins is so hot you shouldn't be having to put up with the insane conditions many people describe unless you want to. Everyone has their war stories, but doing it day in day out is an indication that it is time to move on.
- Ken
Masquerading is also your friend. When I had to handle an IP renumber, It took changes to two, count them two machines. The machines on the inside network didn't notice or need to know about any of it.
A good initial setup will save many long hours of pain down the road. That's probably why the sysadmin in this story got fired. The author was a victim of that admin's bad engineering decisions.
DHCP can give out static addresses based on the MAC address. With some creative automation, you can have a master list that is distributed downstream to the local DHCP servers and their redundant secondaries. There ARE holes in DHCP to be certain. That's what a firewall is for. If the internet was layed out like most intranets are, we'd still be trying to develop a working routing table through FIDOnet and uucp based discussions.
There's a timeout that goes along with a DHCP packet. The machine can reboot all it wants to, so long as that timeout hasn't expired.
--
Ben Kosse
Remember Ed Curry!
If you're making several times the national average at the age of 22 you deserve to be working your ass off. If you don't want to do something that everyone and their grandmothers can do in their sleep, there's 5 billion people who can network just as well.
Because, as we all know, an academic degree is the best measurement of hands on vendor- and application- specific skills. NOT.
You're correct - I don't have any sort of a problem at all with ignorance, in fact I often go out of my way to help people, and teach them.
But there are plenty of people who are just plain stupid. For example, I had to explain to an allegedly computer literate cow-orker recently that if you saved a file under one name, then called it another name in your script, the system wouldn't be able to find it! I've had to explain to one person who was apparently a programmer that if yu called all your variables the same name, the computer wouldn't be able to tell them apart! These are just a few examples - not of ignorance, but plain, can't-be-bothered-to-think stupidity.
We'd all laugh at someone who picked up a telephone and expected to be instantly connected to their party without dialling a number - why is that any different from someone who types 'PRINT' and doesn't bother to specify the file to print?!
As y'all know, I've done a lot of work on the NT platform, and in my experience about 80% of NT problems can be traced to poor systems administration (about 15% more are caused by deploying it into inappropriate roles, and about 5% because of flaws in NT). Why is such a large proportion due to this cause? It's because NT looks like Win95 on the surface, a simple, domestic OS, and it's very easy for people to bluff their way into sysadmin roles on the NT platform - there are people calling themselves Domain Administrators who I wouldn't trust to look after a digital watch, much less an enterprise computing resource! And there's no way to find out until a recovery situation for most companies, as they lack the skills for a truly rigorous hiring process. This isn't a criticism - after all, that's why people get hired, to bring a skill into the company in the first place!
I've never worked with Netware, but I gather the Novell folk found themselves in a similar situation in the early 90's. A bunch of people who could manage the basics were placed in positions of responsibility, and when the situation arose that required deadly skills, they just weren't capable. And everyone suffered for this: the corporates didn't have the network support they needed, the operators were humiliated and fired, and the industry as a whole was blamed. However, the CNA/CNE programme went a long way to weeding out the incompetent, and the MCP programme is starting to have an impact in the quality of NT staff.
Any kid can download linux and teach themselves, which is a good thing when viewed abstractly, but it will definitely result in a lot more people on the market who, whether intentionally or not, grossly exagerate and misrepresent their own skills. This can only be a bad thing, it will bring ill-repute on the sysadmin profession.
The problem is that most IT people enjoy their work, they get a huge amount of satisfaction out of having a healthy system. The problem is that many of the people they have to work with, and much of the software they have to use, are talantless idiots whose mantra is "If it works, its finished".
--
Maybe if you didn't use Microsoft products to generate ?Microsoft-HTML? you wouldn't be so ?stressed out?.
I'm not a smorgasbord.
False. When I recently found myself unemployed, I applied for that sort of job. Mostly because I just needed to be making money. And never got any calls back. I'm overqualified to be a sales-floor person since I've worked various data-entry-with-some-thought and secretarial jobs, not to mention have a college degree, and I have no supervisory experience so they won't hire me as a manager.
NOT FALSE
Why don't you have multiple resumes? If you want a job flipping burgers, make your resume so that you can get a job flipping burgers. You don't walk into a clothing store for a sales position with a college degree in CompSci and five years of network admin on your resume. Fit the paper to the task.
I wouldn't out and out lie, but I'd certainly leave off the fact that you've been doing network admin. "So what have you been doing in the past five years?" "I was travelling, writing a book, taking care of my grandmother" whatever... AFTER you get the job then you can tell them, but not until they understand you're doing what you want and you don't want a bazillion dollars an hour to do it.
Erm, not exactly. You see, there are those pesky job applications that you have to fill out that ask what your last 3-4 jobs were and where you went to school. You also have to sign the bottom and certify that "everything is true and complete." This is pretty much what they want in retail, rather than a resume.
:-)
:-)
True. I wonder how well you'd fare if you said, "you'd rather not know" in those columns.
Personally I'd take the chance at getting fired for making false claims than not getting the job at all because some sales manager thinks you're overqualified.
BTW: Is it a false claim to put down information that is LESS than what you did in order to get a job because they're practising what I would call discriminatory hiring practices? Nobody should be able to tell you you're overqualified for a job since it is you looking for A job, regardless of your experience.
I think it's a joke that someone who has spent time and energy and blood and sweat to learn something be turned down because they have proven themselves to be eager, dilligent workers, able to adapt and grow.
They can fire you if they later find out you lied. No joke.
indeed. Tell them though, "Would you have given me the job otherwise or would you have spouted off some nonsense about overqualification?" I've shut up at least one employer that way and kept my job.
The issue with "overqualification" is that hiring the applicant is a high risk. Typically, someone will take a job to pay the bills (fancy that!), and quit as soon as they find a job more in line with their qualifications. Given the cost of training someone, if they quit in the first month or two, they lose money. It's bad enough that they have to hire a lot of students, people with am "I'm only here until I find something better, and I _will_ find something better" sign around their necks are positively frightening.
Actually that wasn't the case at all with the person to whom my reply was to. They were looking for something different. It could happen... I could grow tired of embedded hardware development and want to try something completely different for a while. Like work my way up the ranks at the local Farmer's Market or something. Stop laughing.
People don't always take a really different job because they are looking for something temporary. I'd tell the truth about that, I mean employers are people. I would honestly put "temp full time" in the app. But I would lie through my teeth about my qualifications if I felt that my past experience and abilities would give me the "overqualified" brand.
OH NO... FIRE ME BECAUSE I'M BETTER THAN WHO YOU'RE LOOKING FOR AND I'LL WORK FOR THE SAME PAY!!
Tell me that makes sense.
The only question I have left... Is whether this girl, who, if I'm lucky enough, may be my wife, and whether, if I'm lucky enough to have kids, my future kids will be (a) satisfied and proud of my carreer (b) sufficiently supported.
the answer is so simple I didn't believe it when I first heard it said to me:
Your children will be proud of you no matter what, If you are a father figure and a dad to them. Don't treat them as objects, treat them as what they truly are: your progeny, the heirs to your kingdom, no matter how large or small, your most cherished gifts. It's not the job that makes the child proud of his dad, it's the fact that his dad is there and does things with him and shows him those things that dads show best. You could be a lowly Cat5 cable crimper and your kids will love you as long as you're there for them.
First off: Things like "coffee is gone, last mountain dew" and then "sixty pounds overweight" and "multiple ulcers" are not mutually exclusive. His health is directly related in how he eats and how he treats himself.
As far as salaried hours and time spent and the "polite" 40 hour weeks -- he's not demanding it so he's getting pushed around.
If he were smart he'd cash in his stock options and find another job where they'd not push him around like that. I know this is easier said than done becuase I feel for the guy. I don't like leaving until things are working. I hate seeing something only partly working. I've pushed myself like he has.
I, however, have wised up.
No longer do I work more than 50 hours a week (normally 40). No longer do I take on the world as my own personal responsibility. I have a wife and a child and another on the way. I have my own worries and there isn't an amount of money in the world which would rearrange those top priorities. I make decent coin (less than he claims anyway) and yes I could be making more somewhere where they demand 80 hour weeks and 24 hour on call, but I refuse to do that becuase of my family. My health and my family are not worth it.
There are emergencies, yes. There are times when I do have to run into the shop at 5am to fix something. But those times are few and far between. I get a healthy amount of sleep at night. I play with my children at home. I wear a pager, yes, but it hardly goes off because my network doesn't die when someone plugs in a new computer or trips over a power cable.
If companies require 24 hour 7 day a week tech assistance, then they need to hire multiple techs and have one pager that is circulated between them. "Ok, Ben, this is your week for 24/7" If the network is up and down that much, the network is designed poorly.
Lastly, why the HELL are 200 machines NOT on DHCP?!? If we change ISPs I change one config file and IPs, gateways and DNS are updated for everyone. I change another file and all our web clients are updated. Sounds like his network falls into the "poorly designed" category.
I really do feel for the guy, but there is no reason to push himself / allow others to push him like that. If he's half as qualified as he says, he can get a job ANYWHERE and sleep at night.
Huh.
I bet you don't hire black people if you're not black, or Jewish people if you're not Jewish. Are you aware that gender, race and religion-based employment screening is illegal?
What you don't get is that these people aren't victims but rather people struggling for equality and equal treatment.
When people of all races, creeds, genders and sexual preferences can walk our streets without fear for their safety - if you're a white male, you probably don't know what it's like - I am and I didn't until I had my eyes opened by my wife and other female and black friends - and don't have to worry that their qualifications for a job won't be overshadowed by a bigoted boss's ignorant misunderstanding of the issues of our society, that's when these people won't be struggling for equality.
Funny, I hope you own your company, because if your boss got wind of your sexist, potentially racist, etc. attitude (Like those who are trained to think of themselves as "regular people" who don't "oppress" people who aren't like them), you're a real legal risk, in my view.
Email me- I won't tell anyone your name. But you need some real eye-opening when it comes to how our culture treats women and minorities, and why certain groups exist.
Yes - except "NT is so simple to maintain that you don't need full-time professionals except on the largest networks". Don't laugh - a former boss of mine was told this.
Not to mention the "paper CNE" and "paper MCSE" problems. Certification may be good, but it's no panacea.
This sounds like my life. I'm a sysadmin, not the network engineer, but I've spent my fair share of time switching out VIP cards in a Cisco 7513 or making a 100 foot crossover cable at 3 AM when the FDDI module in a catalyst failed. I'm also on call 24/7, and so is another sysadmin here who works with me. It's true, the company OWNS you night and day, around the clock. Heck, I'm just getting over a serious case of bronchitis so bad I was coughing up blood, and I was WORKING FROM HOME! And I'm salaried, so what's OT? The difference in pay VS hours worked means I'm making about the same per hour as my mother, who's a secretary with no computer skills.
The problem is I'm making squat compared to a lot of other people with my experience, and for some dumb reason I'm putting up with it. Call it loyalty to a company I was one of the first 20 employees for, I guess (even though we've been bought and had the company that bought US bought out).
Why do we keep doing this? Anyone know a good shrink?
Used to work like that, no more. There is plenty of work available.
I don't get paid for 24/7, so I don't do it. It's good business to stick to your contract, they don't thank you for the extra.
Living in Europe with the Working time directive is quite handy, maybe the US needs something similar.
Deleted
Apart from that, I sympathise with your position. Like many here, I've been there, and decided it wasn't worth it. Strictly 40 hours a week for me (but then, I'm a contractor now, so they have to pay me if I work overtime...)
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Not necessarily all his fault...
In our datacenter, we have 150+ machines. Almost every one (for performance reasons) has a caching nameserver running with references to our "real" nameservers in their '/etc/named.{boot,conf}'. Add to that several class C networks, subnet a few of them. Routers and such expect IP addresses, changing the config on our Local Directors would take a few hours in itself... Changing our IP address space (on a moments notice) would be a nightmare.
Also consider that broadcasts (i.e. dhcp/bootp) don't cross networks. You don't want to join all of the nets together, broadcast traffic could eat up a good chunk of your bandwidth (at the very least, increase latency). So, you decide to maintain 5 DHCP servers. Congratulations, you've added 5 new single points of failure. You need redundancy, so you add another 5 machines, replicas of the first. (I could go on...)
/* MAGIC THEATRE
ENTRANCE NOT FOR EVERYBODY
MADMEN ONLY */
Eh, you could use SNMP on some routers to do it. He might've meant using NAT on the router to "reconfigure" the servers rather than the router itself.
:)
I'd guess he probably meant SNMP though.
Its a perfect case when network engineers or sys admins should know Perl.
I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but this is the same as every other labor-related story thats cropped up in the last few weeks on here. I bet we see the same B.S. about unions and the same arguments for and against that.
;) If you've got high profile clients, you could always use a NAT solution to handle the switchover period. I think Linux could probably even do it for you.
In the end though, it boils down to one thing. If you don't like it, quit. As you said, you're making multiples of the national average income for someone your age. You could always go sell clothes at The Gap or something. Or take one of those several hundred thousand other open IT jobs at companies that have sufficient technical resources and skills in house not to end up in that sort of a situation. (And a properly designed network architecture shouldn't have nearly the issues in that sort of a switch over... but I'll get to that)
There is a tendancy for people in the industry -- particularly people who are in positions significantly beyond their realistic abilities (I'm not saying this is your case, but A case) -- for people not to stick up for themselves. If you don't like working late hours, don't. Half the time people think they have to, their management really isn't saying that, they're just assuming it. If management IS saying it, then say no. If they fire you, they fire you. If you really have any skills, you'll get another job without any problems, and if you don't, maybe thats what you should concern yourself with.
On the area of mass IP migration, I hope this story serves as a warning to anyone else working in those situations. Its not difficult to engineer your network systems to handle this cleanly. Generate your DNS entries out of a database. Generate a DHCPD configuration file that assigns internal-only IP's for each server, Also out of the database, do the same thing with your server configuration, and IP configuration. Simple scripts to do that. (And you're not using NT for real work are you? You probably could do it with NT anyway, just takes a bit more hacking)
A few days before the switchover, change your SOA's for a near-immediate changeover. Run a query against the database to regenerate your various configuration files, and bring down and back up the networks on the servers. On most systems you won't even need a reboot, and you'll have a few seconds downtime.
I've done provider switchovers at companies with dozens of servers and hundreds of clients no-sweat with less than an hour downtime. If you don't have any other downtimes, you're still doing better than EBay
- An ISP switch should take a maximum of 4 hours, and that includes remapping IP addresses of the servers on your DMZ and reconfiguring your router to the new ISP.
- If you use network address translation (masquerading) and internal (10.x.x.x) IP addresses, then NO CHANGES are needed internally when changing ISPs.
- All workstations and most servers should be using DHCP to allocate IP addresses and download net mask, domain name, etc.
- The DNS servers should use Dynamic DNS to resolve host names to DHCP-allocated IP addresses.
- By letting himself be abused in this manner, he is lowering the standards of a suitable work environment for everybody in this industry.
- If this guy was really so smart, he could find a real job doing the same type of work on a normal 8 to 10 hours a day, 5 days a week schedule. For MORE money. Quality is in demand.
- He is running himself into an early grave, as he himself testifies.
- He has no life outside of work. Ugh.
- He is confusing spinning his wheels with moving fast. Its the MPH that count, not RPMs.
- Not only is he a whiner, he's a SMUG whiner.
Sometimes, you just gotta know when to say NO!"The only good windmill is a tilted windmill."
Thank God (whichever you like)...I hope this gives some of the less technical users out there some sort of apreciation for 'us techies'. I've been there...done that....(Way tooooo often).... Anyway.....Has anyone ever done a study about why we feel guilty when we leave a situation like this? I know the author did...I have....I'll have to talk to my wife (a psych major...going for her Doctorate)... Well...for me anyway...most of this stuff is over...I've just gotten a job as a Senior Systems Design Architect....I can let the engineers deal with these problems....:-)
Palin...
While the writer may not have engineered the network he was hired to maintain, there is such a thing as re-engineering, time allowing of course.
On another note, DHCP can be configured to serve static addresses. This way, massive changes such as the one he suggests would require editing a single file on one of the servers, averting the headaches of visiting 200 desktops.
Let's hope he has learned a lesson.
DHCP can be configured to serve static IP addresses. Configure your clients to use DHCP. The next time something like this happens, you'll have to edit one file on one server rather than visit 200 clients. I can't imagine having to do that, and if I had to, I would seriously reconcider my approach to IP management.
Why not use a private netwotk? Is there some reason why you need public-side IP addresses for your clients/servers? Cut your netowrk into a private side and a public side. Place all publically accessable boxes into the DMZ and secure them. You may need another router (or box) to route between the public and private side. The next time changes such as this are required, you need only reconfigure the public side boxes, leaving the clients as they are.
Make sure your clients never have to leave your network for services. From what I read I assume your clients are using your ISP's name servers?
I also have a question:
If you are the 'network' administrator, why are you concerned with client configurations? Is your job description sys damin/network admin? There should definately be a destinction between the two. Telecom analysts are not necessarily good sysadmins and good sysadmins might now know a thing about telecom.
Really? That is not my experience at all ... average MSCE makesbetween 40k and 55k, unix sysadmins with programming experience seem to be around 45-80k depending on experience and other skills. 100k to manage a small network? I don't think so - I wish.
support gun control: take guns from cops
we didn't have the problems you had with the isp switch over, but we did :P... :).
when our web/mail server was hacked.. i'm a programmer here not the
sysadmin.. yet i had was at my office from 8am till 4am teaching our
"sysadmin" the principles of security, telling him how it got hacked,
teaching him simple firewall rules, and how to take that goddarned wu_ftpd
out and putting something else in there like nc or pro...
oh and i also had to teach him how to do a linux install and partition
drives and stuff... made me wonder why i'm the programmer and he's the
sysadmin... and u know what happened next ? the sysadmin is still there..
even though his incompetence was obvious in fron tof the ceo of my company
and to the director of technology (a figure head only). our company is
small so everyone knew what was going on and everyone saw all the work i
put in and not get compensated for it... no thanks or anything.. oh no
wait.. i was just told that they were glad i'm there because now i can be
a peer to the sysadmin.. i was like how about u pay me to be your lead web
developer and peer to the sysadmin... i'm 20 and was making 50k there..
since that incident i looked around and got a job with nice stock options
and 15k base pay more than here.. u did a lot work man.. u should look
around as well. but then again you're makin over 100k already
hopefully by the time i'm 22 i'll be makin atleast 90
argh! i'd almost forgotten about those...
the few times i've been forced to mess with NT boxes (more than i'd like to admit, though) i've always done whatever possible to avoid those abominations.
Somebody get our flag back!
Of course it isn't. The best measure of hands-on skills is a certification that can be obtained via a three-week "boot camp" by anyone with a modicum of computer experience.
"Professional" certifications will always be a joke as long as companies use them for marketing purposes only ("See how many MCSE's there are? NT is popular! Support is available!", "See how many CNE's there are? Netware is popular! Support is available!") rather than as a truly objective measurement of a person's skills and knowledge. None of the people I know who are "certified" by any of these programs got the cert because by doing so they would expand their skills - they all got it because it's worth a couple thousand more when the salary negotiations come up.
Such programs remind me of the "driver safety" courses most states offer to let you remove a traffic ticket from your record. They care not a whit about teaching actual driving skills or imparting safety knowledge - they just want to make sure you sit there for six hours and regurgitate the "right" (i.e., the ones you were given a few moments ago) answers when prompted.
Pfft!
http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/demoron iser
Please... I can?t stand reading HTML with a bunch of ?question marks? littering it. It?s very annoying, don?t you think?
punchline of your story is that they fired the (only?) full time system administrator.
about sean dreilinger
I'm in the UK, so perhaps the climate is somewhat different.
:-)
:)
But, how DO *most* people get their MSCE/CNE/etc papers? Do most people pay for them themselves out of savings etc, out of their salaries, or do they have their employers pay for them?
As for me, I'm 19 with no formal qualifications. I'm working in the IT dept. at a council because I aced the techy quiz I was given at the interview, 'cos I'm a cocky bastard who knows what he knows and knows enough buzzwords and background info about what he doesn't know to get by.
The difference in practical knowledge levels and approach between my degree-educated colleagues and the self-taught self is extremely noticable.
Most of the skills I've brought to the dept. are UNIX and Internet related, but a few months ago the council paid to send me on the Exchange Server course, so I could set up the email for council. If we have enough money in the budget I might even get sent on the NT admin courses that were the prerequisite for the Exchange course
- doctea
Well you have a few decisions to make:
a) Decide how much you want to measure your self worth based on how many hours you work
b) Decide how badly you want/need the money if doing less actually means earning less
c) Honestly evaluate whether you're doing this job in the most efficient way possible
d) Honestly evaluate whether you're a control freak who can't or won't let some things go undone and/or let someone else do them
Then what you have to do is go to your employer and negotiate how this workload. If your employer stonewalls you then the decision is clear. If the outcome is some plan to alleviate your workload then there should be specific milestones and targets to get there.
Every proferssional industry holds out a carrot to get people to work harder be it money, title, partnership, perks and the like. For example a legal associate or auditor has specific, sometimes almost unrealistic billing-hour goals, a systems consultant has to bring in 'x' dollars or travel 90% of the time with the prospect that at least there is a chance that down the road the payoff is worth it. In each of these there is an expectation that if you don't make the cut eg. didn't make partner in the 7th year, you're out. You alone have to decide whether there is a carrot for you, whether it's real or bogus and whether it's worth the sacrifice. You alone have to understand what next job will be - that is - if doing what you're doing leads anywhere in your firm.
Alternatively you may wish to consider the specific industry you work in - some are much less forgiving than others. Is it possible to do your job in some other sector that doesn't have the same demands on your time?
I'll draw you an analogy. A few years ago I interviewed at a consulting boutique. 12 interviews one half hour each with each of the prinicpals and one the founders. Every single one focused on the massive number of hours they expected this person to work - a MINIMUM expectation of 12-14 hours per day, half-day on Saturday. This location was ~2 hrs from my home, each way. This was a privately held firm where most the equity was held by the two founders, a husband and wife team. By then end of this process the only thing I could say to the founder was that I had no problem working 100 hrs/week but why would I do it for him? It was clear that they weren't giving a piece of the business and that they wanted to 'leverage' the employees until they died or quit. Their agenda seemed clear. Pump up the value of the company, sell it and drive away in a new Ferrari. This was a valuable lesson for me because it convinced me that being self employed and/or starting your own company is probably not much harder than building up someone else's business.
It's not all that uncommon. I was one of these "indispensable" people, maintaining a system that I made robust enough that it didn't often cause problems. The system was mission critical. Did management provide backups for me? In their eyes they did, they gave me two backups, one an IBM MVS guys who was struggling to learn Unix (which is what this system was using), the other a Powerbuilder/Visual Basic program who thought Unix was too icky or something. Both were pretty useless as backups. the VB programmer tended to break things more.
Management recognized that these people weren't learning, and did little to correct the problem, other than give lip service to it. To make it worse, I discovered that the useless backups were getting paid more than I was. I decided to quit, and the company had no choice but to bring me in on a consulting basis, until they could get new staff competant enough to maintain the system.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
While seeing some comments around here I noted a general mood that's hard to agree with. Well the author has made some good errors. He does look quite bad. But people, mission critical jobs do exist. And beware of them. They are no kiddy's toy. And I don't use phones to fell important. The best I can get from them is the chance to have some good free time on myself.
:). The level of calls dropped by 400-500%.
In reality 90% of problems concerning an average sized ISP are either "dumb" problems or false alarms. A phone or a pager allows a mission critical admin to send to Hell these things in a polite manner. Well here just holding a phone does not help you much. In fact the thing is quite complex and concerns some levels of "filtering" calls and problems. Frankly if everyone knew my work phone then I would surely be hanged on it 24/7/365.
But not having a secondary or tertiary means of communication is being stupid if your work is mission critical. If you don't have a well planned system of communication (that does not concern just your workplace) then wait for very serious trouble. You will end with a queue of problems rising up like a snowball. And besides you are not creating only problems for yourself but overcharging everyone dependent on you. In one section around here we do have such situation because the teamleader there is not careful to plan a good communication environment. Things hang up for days or weeks due to this. Thanks God his section is not mission critical. But it looks much like that due to all those delays there...
I may agree that being ISP does not mean that you're mission critical. In fact mission critical is mostly a task and not a job. However, depending on the structure of the ISP it is highly possible that some places are mission critical and there's nothing strange with this.
What is strange and dangerous is to mess mission critical tasks with regular work. In fact maintenance is a critical point of the organization. But if maintenance is constantly done at mission critical rythm then there is something wrong with it. Well in fact we had this situation that lead to wiping out all NT workstations and replacing them with Linux
Well in any case I may tell you one thing. During all these years I passed a Hell of situations. Yes I do have some grey hair on my early 30's but that's due to a problem not directly related to my worktime. I don't have ulcers and I only blame two things in my health: a small spine trauma I got from falling six meters head down and some headaches when I push the line of worktime. And this only happens when I run over two days eyes open.
I know how it's like... I'm going on my 34th hour right now and still have at least 5 or 6 hours left before I can go home
I wish all of you the best of luck in whatever you do...
--Ivan, weenie NT4 user, Jon Katz hater: bite me!
--weenie NT4 user: bite me!
"Computers are nothing but a perfect illusion of order" -- Iggy Pop
I am sorry man but this guy does not make those kinds of decisions the Sys Admin that got fired after he left made the kinds of decisions that would have made this turn over easy to handle.
A lot of hot shot tech kids are busting this guy for not setting up the network to handle this kind of transfer. However this guy is a tech not a network architect or a Senior admin. He could have probably done it better but at this point all he could do is make the changes inside of the already established setup. You have to understand who makes the decisions on how the network is set up. I will bet you money that he was not the one setting this structure up.
ACK
Read the article again. First, I do not feel that I should be forced to work 80 hours a week even for high pay and overtime with the arguement that at least I am not lugging groceries for minimum wage. However, if you look closely at the article it has much more to do with the simple fact that the writer is completely hooked on his job to the point of ignoring everything else.
He volunteered to help out and felt guilty after working for as long as he did. This was a confessional more than a bust on his companies policies.
Not only that, but this is the rule for many sys admins. They get into their jobs because they LOVE computers, technology, networking and systems. Then they become obsessed with their jobs to the detriment of everything else. If you can't relate then you are not doing what you love. Sure, it is his own fault. The deal is that he is beginning to realize it is a problem. I am not sure if the quit bitching responses are really necessary. The been there done that get the life that is waiting for you responses are much more constructive.
ACK
Sorry Midnight the person at the dentist's or dental department would just look at you and say, "I want the hurting in my tooth to go away!"
The dentist not expecting the guy to have a clue of why is tooth is hurting would go ahead and remove those two lateral incisorors as some as possible.
The problem with so many computer people (BTW, I run a Help Desk), is that we expect the people to have a clue when they should not have to. Putting this simply, if their job is to sell stuff but they are required to send their boss email updates, they do not and really should not give a flat damn about how it works. Their only concern is that their email works, period.
The person knows their product inside and out and can give a presentation like you would not believe. They pass the million mark in sales on a regular basis. Why the heck should they clutter their heads learning computer stuff? So we as computer people will have an easier time explaining why it took half a day to get the mail server back up? That is nonsense.
I know that I will get flamed back with a detailed bit about why everyone on the planet that uses a computer for their job should understand the tool to use it arguement. I want my fridge to work but I will not sit there and learn the ins and outs of appliance technology just so I can sound smarter to the repair man when the thing decides not to blow cold air over my Coca Cola. Sometimes it sounds like what we expect from the users.
ACK
Listen, I work for a smaller corporation that is a part of a much larger one. I hear these kinds of stories all the time. The 36 hour turn around for a complete backup, installing new HD and then repartitioning the thing and putting the files back where they need to go was the most recent one. It does not sound to bad until you realize how complex the file structure has to be for our object file transfer program we use to move files around to be applied to the database. Also over half that time is taken getting the files off in the first place.
Anyway, I want to get more technical and I have been thinking about getting out of being a Help Desk Manager looking over techs and being a tech again. The tough part is that I hear stories like this and wonder with a family, house and a good wife at my back is it really worth it even to chase down something I truly love? Gimme some thoughts people.
ACK
Just because you're using DHCP doesn't mean you're not using static IPs.
DHCP can be used to assign static IPs. Doing so also has the advantage that it forces you to keep track of which machine has what MAC address.
BTW, in response to the person who said that rebooting didn't necessarily mean you sent a new DHCP request; only if your OS is broke, bucko.
DHCP has security problems, but they're a non-issue since they're not anywhere close to the worst holes you're going to have in any TCP/IP installation. At least with DHCP-assigned static IPs you've got:
1) A correlation between MAC and IP in a handy
database.
2) A user calling you bitching about his machine
not working if somebody tries to pirate his IP by pirating his MAC.
What is the router equivalent to DHCP?
The best solution I could recommend is writing some Expect scripts to automate router & switch configuration.
I do mass changes on thousands of routers/switches/hubs etc for a living (on one of the big networks the author mentions, actually) and I can say from experience that a certain vendor's (read 3Com) MIB support is still a little shaky. That's why we use Expect to automate telnet sessions into the devices so we'll be guaranteed that we'll be able to configure any device setting.
And everyone should know Perl :-)
So why not sub contract the cableing out and then bill whoever authorised the security guys to slice the cables.
Otherwise it looks like the system went down again for no reason and you get the blame. After people have thier budgets burned for messing with your stuff they won't do it again.
Hey become a contractor and charge for your time.
"Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
I find if I talk people through and help them learn to get it right it pays off more than shouting at them. They will also be more inclined to help you in the future.
I also beleive in treating your inferiors in how you would like your superiors to treat you.
"Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
At one time I might have functioned in a similar context, now if this type of thing happens to me more than once a month or once every two its time to sit down, calculate how many hours the company owes me and goto the boss to work out time off to make up for it.
I figure I work 50hrs in an average week, before I was salaried the company tracked my time to the point where it became self regulating (after dishing out 50+hr's OT in one pay period they start realizing exactly how much they need an additional person).
But these days its a bit different (because I'm salary), I have learned when to say when and to tell my boss that I have to many clients or to much going on to be messing with additional work and with that I have also learned the value of my personal time.
Anyway, in my experience if you do a good job and make the customer happy (whether you are internal or have outside customers) companies will usually work with you in order to keep you on board. The big thing is that you need to be able to tell them when you are overloaded or make sure you are being treated fairly when it comes to making up for going someplace and putting in 35 hours in two days. If your company won't listen to you then maybe its time to start looking for a company who will.
He's right in that some people that are doing the hiring don't know crap. I was at a major HMO and they hired people to do helpdesk who knew only to click on the start button, didn't have any formal education, and of course, got paid little. The people doing the hiring only cared about keeping bodies so they could justify their own jobs!
I think it is good to evaluate somebody for the right reasons, skills, abilities, work methodology, people skills. Some people with college degrees are better than those without, but I have seen people in college who are no good at all. It is important for those who are looking for jobs to evaluate the employer, too. If they are going to be working for a crappy manager or company, might as well not accept a job offer.
The only way to save yourself from this is to try and seek out the jobs where you don't start in a bad position. The two things I run from are large company positions (where you fight existing methods and beurocratic policy) and small companies who are unwilling to let you actually change anything.
I recently started working for a Linux-centric company who had some serious security and maintenance issues. The solution was to start from scratch. Sure, it seems like a waste of time to them, but for my sake as an admin and theirs as a company, it was the best solution. It's a good place to work if you aren't fighting a company or put into poor situations.
You can't always pick the perfect job, but weighing that in advance can help keep you from watching your life get sucked into a job.
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
If it's a desktop/server, it gets a static address since those machines do not leave their physical location. If it's a laptop, it gets DHCP. If it's a router/gateway/firewall/etc., it gets statics (don't even get me started on the security implications involved in running your router plant with DHCP/BOOTP - it's more trouble than it's worth, believe me). Stick your plant behind a translating firewall setup of some kind and don't wash your internal network laundry in public.
As I said, no silver bullets, YMMV, past history is no guarantee of future performance, you knew the job was dangerous when you took it, etc.
-- ultra1
People work like this in every non-govenrment industry. My wife used to be a retail manager for a national clothing store. She would work all night getting ready for a big sale, or give up her days off for weeks on end. She had the respect and one of the best stores in the region, but that just gets old after a while.
There are a LOT of cush IT jobs out there. Find them. Covet them. Don't trade your life for money.
>I get a kick out of stress (as long as I have sufficient time to recouperate
Yep, power outages and halon dumps sure to raise the excitement level.
- My favorite error message: xscreensaver, running on an old Sparc 5 w/ 8bit color: bsod: Couldn't allocate color Blue
Did the same and been unemployed for the last two months. Now the question is whether to do it again.
I liked the fast pace of the job, the long nights, the 2am sessions when everything just finally "works." I did not like the meager pay.
I liked the huge experience I got, but not the grief. I liked making things _happen_.
As soon as I left, the MCSE that replaced me took down my linux firewall and replaced it with MS Proxy server. I had never even considered it because of the money. Perhaps they should get legal on their licenses of SQL server first. (A few million bucks should do it)
I'm wiser and smarter now. Perhaps I'll do it again. Perhaps I'll get a better deal this time.
Gee, it would freaking help if those of us with the beginnings of the knowledge and the desire to learn could afford the courses needed to get those skills.
Seems like MOST of the people in the business are children of well-to-do parents who could afford to put their kids through the $8000 courses with the $150 tests.
So if people want to stop this shortage of workers in the U.S., stop hiring foreign workers and start funding the education of those who are willing and able.
Even my GI Bill won't cover the courses I need to get something like the MCSE.
Personally, I'm looking forward to LPI getting the Linux certification ready. I can only pray I can afford the education that'll be required.
Digital Wokan, Tribal mage of the electronics age
Wait a minute. You're making a multiple of the national average of salary? Your stock options could buy you a house? Quit complaining. I been there, I done that, I got paid dirt, I left. At least you're being fairly compensated for dedicating your life to this stuff. There's a lot of people who would be very very happy to be in your position.
I'm not saying I dont understand what you're going through, I've been there. My pager woke me at least once a night. I spent every saturday morning nad most of sunday working remotely. I never was able to leave the range of my pager. I received over 1000 emails per day, My diet was Mt Dew, pizza, and beer. 60 hour weeks? Sure. I spent the night of the company christmas party planning for a data center migration. I spent thanksgiving morning installing a reboot switch. I made $13 an hour. You just cant win me over on this one. If you dont like it, quit.
-Rich
If you have a CS degree, most employers assume that means you spent at least 4 years dedicated to learning your subject matter. The fact is that most college students today spend their 4+ years trying to get a degree while learning as little as possible.
Yeah! When I was in college, we really busted our balls day and night to REALLY understand our computers. I could build an ENIAC from scratch in an afternoon. I'd like to see a college brat today do that!
In my Junior year, I spent the 3 weeks before fall term finals awake, studying. These kids today get 'A's if they're awake during the exam.
Before they gave me my BA, I had to build a pocket calculator capable of 3 dimentional plotting and rotation from only the disassembled guts of an FM radio and using only my teeth (OK, I will admit that I did use my left eyebrow once to nudge in a capacitor I was soldering).
Get real! There have always been lazy and motivated students; when you went to college, at least when my father went to college, and now when I'm in college. I'm not a CS major (anthropology, if it matters), but I'm seriously impressed with many of the students who are (even in their sophomore years). You're prolly going to start spouting off "when I was your age" stories next, right? *kidding*
Maybe it's just because of the school I'm at, but everybody seems to be working damned hard and learning quite a bit.
--Andrew Grossman
grossdog@dartmouth.edu
Yours: But overtime was well... Very rewarding to say the least.
His: High salaries become an illusion because when it gets down to it your hourly rate isn?t much better than the assistant manager of the local Pep Boys.
Not everyone get's overtime.
This sounds frighteningly familiar.
/16 (and the 10.0.0.0/8 private network). The software didnt come online for another 2 weeks.
From September 98 to March 99, I worked as an intern in NetOps at a large hospital system in PA. Our biggest changeover push was bringing online the new clinical labs software on our Tandem. At 1:30AM on Friday night, I get paged by the second shift guy who usually just pages the on-call anyway and get asked to come in "just for a few minutes to look this over". 37 hours, 9 pots of coffee, 6 cases of Mt Dew, 7 dozen donuts, and 4 pizzas later, the four of us bring the damned system online. And that was just getting the Tandem to be seen on the network frum the entire
After going home at 2PM on sunday, I didnt come in until Wednesday. The -overtime- was nice, but dammit, you need to sleep. They called Tuesday afternoon asking where I was, so I just told them "36 on, 36 off, see you in the morning" and hung up.
Did I mention that I was only 19 at the time, still in college at Drexel University in PHL, and only paid 15/hr?
*yawn* more coffee please.
"To err is human, to forgive is simply not my policy." --root
Sounds familiar...
:-)
.idl files...
14+ hour days, 7 days a week for 18 months.
I decided to bug out and get into testing/development. 7 hour days, 5 days a week. The disadvantage was that I took a drop in salary, and now don't have a real choice in what I do. The advantage is that I can now spend several hours a night with friends, gardening, reading, listening to music, getting some proper sleep etc. I also lost about 30 pounds (from UK 13.5 stones to UK 12 stones), and I've never felt better.
If you're in this situation, my advice would be take some time off and examine why you're really doing this. Is it for money, love, or apathy? If you've got ulcers, I'd think long and hard about this one.
I wonder how sysadmin's attitude compares to those of doctors? I'm not trying to compare the jobs here, but junior doctors (here in the UK) work very long hours. But you couldn't tell them to stop. I wonder if it's for the same reasons? When I moved over to development, I tried to do everything myself, in much the same way as I did in sysadmin. I was taken aside, told to chill, and then realised that I could now ask the sysadmin to fix stuff, and could also depend more on the team.
Ramble mode off.
Anthony
PS. I'd recommend gardening to anyone. Wrist deep in dirt is a great balance to figuring out
----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
Come now, people...
Certifications and degrees do not prove knowledge. I've seen all too many people wandering around with certifications and/or degrees who couldn't config their heads out of a paper bag. Meanwhile, I've met a great many home-grown technicians and engineers who could rewrite your OS from the ground up, even though they had never set foot in a college classroom or even picked up an A+ study guide.
At my last job, we had an 18-year old desktop support technician who knew more about the NT domain at the company than our MCSE-certified Systems Engineer did. Sure, the MCSE could quote Microsoft recommendations all day, but didn't have a single bit of real-world experience behind an NT domain. He couldn't handle the "make due with what we have" philosophy of our small company. He knew what we should have (according to Microsoft) to do what we wanted to do. He didn't know how to operate in the real world of tight budgets and obsolete hardware.
At my current job, I have a coworker who recently went from no certifications to an MCSE in just over 2 months. He's now certified to administer software that he's never even seen outside of shrinkwrap. Today he's also a Microsoft Certified Trainer, and plans to make his fortune training the future MCSEs to pass their tests without ever having to actually touch NT Server.
The biggest problem with certifications is that they hide the qualities that employers really should be looking for behind this "Microsoft says I'm qualified" facade. If you have an MCSE, most employers assume that means you know how to administer an NT domain. Unfortunately, that's not always the case. If you don't have an MCSE, you have to prove that you can admin that domain.
If you have a CS degree, most employers assume that means you spent at least 4 years dedicated to learning your subject matter. The fact is that most college students today spend their 4+ years trying to get a degree while learning as little as possible.
This is not to say that certifications and degrees are worthless. Far from it. While they do NOT prove knowledge, they DO prove dedication. If you're not willing to spend the few months necessary to get your MCSE, how can your employer know that you're willing to spend the time necessary to make his network operate properly?
The point, however, is that certifications alone do not make one great. When it all comes down to the wire, knowledge is what really counts.
- Rob Cottrell
Though I understand the writer's concerns and situation, we the technicians and programmers are in demand. We do have the skills and economic clout to decide our fate - but we're not used to it individually or (importantly) as a community. I think we're used to being the nerds, the techheads, etc. and sometimes we just take it and live with it. We don't have to.
To put it simply we're needed and you can't just replace us. The Information Economy is run and maintained by us. We have the clout, but don't often realize it - and when we do we're damn powerful. We are not just necessary, we are indespensible.
I work about 40-45 hours a week as a programmer/analyst, and overtime when needed (sometime pre-emptively). I know my sanity is more important than money, and that if my manager doesn't understand, there is other work out there. Too many of my fellow computer professionals have lost their sanity, and I put my foot down early that I wouldn't be one of them.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
I admit, jobs like this are usually thankless. You're expected to keep the network running, regardless of the changes that are thrown your way or the IEU (Idiot End User, pronounced "eeww") that can't send email. I worked for a budding regional ISP for a while doing the exact same work, usually way out of my league experience-wise, and I wasn't making multiples of the national average.
But you have to ask yourself why you still do it. It isn't the pay, even though that's nice. Chances are you still do it because you actually like your job, the people you work with, and the status it provides you. No problem there, but the "suffering sysadmin" profile is a bit lost on me. Personally, I think some people who perpetuate this portrait of themselves simply like the image it portrays: the intelligent, suffering problem-solver who is knee-deep in the throes of yet another networking disaster.
Like another post mentioned: if you don't like your job, get out now. Your time is far too valuable to spend it doing something you don't find fulfilling. And there are so many other opportunities out there. Hang up your sysadmin hat, start up a consulting company, and set your own hours. Chances are you'll still be able to make ends meet.
--Mid
idiot \Id"i*ot\, n. [F. idiot, L. idiota] an uneducated, ignorant, ill-informed person.
When I was speaking of end users, I was looking at them from the sys admin's perspective. For instance, a typical complaint from users when there are network problems is "But I just want to send email...", as if this is a simple task that shouldn't be interrupted if the router is down, the DHCP server is unplugged, and some backhoe 200 miles away just cut through a fiber line. The point, even the point of this entire
In the same way, your dental department chair would take a pale view of me if I said "But I just want to remove two lateral incisors, without anesthesia, sterile tools, or even a well-lit room...". I'd be an idiot.
Your point about not treating everyone who doesn't write code as inferior is well taken, and quite true. But it is out of place. We're talking about a network technician who had to deal with unjust job-related pressure from ill-informed people.
--Mid
For sure brother.... That's how it works. I used to feel the same way about things... And here's what I've decided.
Why not use DHCP for those 200+ machines? Anyway...
I know perfectly well that feeling of 'must stay until it is done, it is critical. I am critical. This is my job...' etc..... and I know how it can get the better of you.
But the truth is that, in most cases, people are only in this postition because they allow it. Very very few employers are going to accuse you of working too hard for too little money. You are the employers dream! Oftentimes, when you aren't punching a timecard, the boss doesn't even KNOW that you are spending such late nights at work... and if he does, he doesn't necessarily know it's because of things that HAD to be done, he thinks it's because of things that you WANT to do.
I stopped this cycle.. how? Simple.
Write things down. Report to boss how much time is being spent on things. Don't complain, just report, say, once a week. If there is more than enough work for two people and you are the only one on staff, getting worked to death, you can easily show him.. This is what I do, this is how many hours I do it, here is some regular maintenance stuff that takes half my time and you can hire someone full time to do it. Most bosses won't turn a blind eye to this information if it is presented in a form they can understand.
Hearing 'hey chief, joe is overworked' doesn't really help. Reading a document that shows how the network department really works helps a lot.
Also, design your networks to function correctly, according to YOUR specs, not some lackeys. Buy hardware you trust, software you trust, and don't be afraid to get the boss to spend some REALY money on his IT infrastructure. It makes your job a lot easier in the end.
And GO HOME after work. As a wise friend once said, you really aren't doing a good job unless you can do it from 9 to 5 and then leave it at work!
Think about it. If your services are as critical to the company's operation as you think they are, then that will translate directly into money and authority with the boss. If the boss is willing to just toss you aside, then you obviously aren't critical to him!
You're assuming the guy writing the article set up the network of the company he was working on in the first place.
Also, there are reasons for not using DHCP (easy accounting and added security, for a start) unless you need to, just as there are obvious reasons for using it.
Some people wonder why Sysadmins are known for being so cranky, why the whole "Bastard Operator from Hell" culture came about. They see intolerance for ignorance, and put it down to elitism.
But that's not the whole story. When someone fscks up - like giving out the wrong IP addresses, in Morrigan's case - it can cause a lot of headaches. So you blow up at them. I'm known in my Company for exploding over the phone at Telco staff when they give me stupid answers to simple questions: not just because I look down on them, but because their incompetence causes more unneccessary work for me.
Is it any wonder BOfHs are what they are?
Every action was procedurized(sp?), documented, approved, and signed-for. Remember. This is banking we're talking about. Downtime is not in this shop's dictionary. Real people lose real money when you go down. Everything was failsafe. Each server had a "twin" that would hot-swap whenever problems came up.
After 2 years on the job, the department was down to 12 admins. It still went along just fine, migrating 5-6 servers per weekend without any downtime. But the point is : Everything was planned for, and they even had provision for the unplanned-for. You need this. You cannot go along without decent planification if you have more then 3 workstations.
Regarding the hellish workweeks, well... That comes with the territory. As the topic said, they had flexible schedule. You could work as many hours as you wished, as long as it was 24 hours a day. But overtime was well... Very rewarding to say the least. I know some people cannot take the heat, and usually need some sleep. If you cannot do it, get an office job. If you can do it, more power to you.
'nuff said.
Sun Tzu must have been running Linux...
- Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. (Sun Tzu, The art of war)
Marriage is considered capital punishment for the theft of a goat in some third world countries...
Been there myself. I recently worked for a large long distance company in one of their telemarketing centers. Nothing haunts you more than when the connection to those databases go boom and the reps sit there, making no money. The Center Director just paces around, mumbling. The IS Manager is yelling over the walkie talkie for information, and the open bridge conference call has a bunch of remote network admins scratching their heads saying things like "did you reboot it first?" The funny thing is that a lot of times we weren't even allowed to reboot the thing unless they said to do it.
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Twisted Little Gnome - The Podcasting Network http://www.twistedlittlegnome.com
I hope you took 2.whatever days off after that. they pay you for a certain number of hours--if you work more, well that's time you take off of the next couple a days!--it's like a free vacation. and if you are not set up that way, well what made you think the job is worth it? Everytime I ever planned a major upgrade that would require me to stay after hours, I told people that I wouldn't be around and why--they never had a problem with it, and kept off my back till I let them know I was available again. telling people that you have been working since they left the day before tends to shut them up!
Slackware: old school feel, new school gear.
So much for being a cool sys admin,
his HTML have the marks of Word.
Noticed all those question marks instead
of real quote marks ?
Wuuhh...wuuhh...
:)
This guy has only himself to blame for all of his work. If he knew what he was doing, he would not have to go to every workstation to fix them. They made this neat thing called DHCP. And they have the equivilent for the routers. Mabey you should try some planning before you go off and do something. If you have to go to a users desk to do something, then your doing something wrong. Thats whats really wrong with this industry, all these people that think they are super duper hot shots, and they don't know crap, but at least they know more then the average monkey. Then they go and screw everything up, and then when they fix their own mistake, management is like, your so smart.
I'm a doctor-in-training. A large part of my training is 36 hour days. As a medical student, I was occasionally on for a day and a half every third day. There are still several programs in the country where interns work 36 hours every other day. Although most hospitals are thoughtful enough to provide beds, no one sleeps on call... we're working.
I love what I do. It's fascinating, complicated, emotioanlly and intellectually challenging, and unbelievably satisfying, and I get to hack the most complicated machine around. My hours are an expected part of what I do.
I miss my family when I'm at work just like everyone else. But this is how you learn medicine.
I guess my point is this: if you're working too much at something you don't like, quit. It's not worth not seeing your family and getting ulcers. If you need the money to make your house payments, sell the house and live somewhere cheaper. You have a lot of options: your job is in demand. I'm grateful that my network works, but someone else would be happy to have your job.
I recently did something very similar to this. I worked 130hrs in 8 days. By the end of it I was literally living at work. When everyone came back from holiday the next day, I got bitched at for being late by the CEO. All the work and none of the reward, what a wonderful industry we work in.
The very ink with which all history is written is merely fluid prejudice. -- Mark Twain
Anyone remember that old army recruitment song? ("There's no life like it...")
:)
Makes you want to reconsider becoming an Admin
I'd never reconsider being an Admin.. I love this job... situations such as the author describes don't happen that often for me (only once or twice a year,) but when they do, they're a rush.. I get a kick out of stress (as long as I have sufficient time to recouperate
"The wise man keeps some of his skills in reserve," they say. ;-) I've learned this one the hard way too, as most jobs I've been at started out as simpler tech jobs, and turned into me running the network, being a primary programmer, and also the major knowledge base for the company in question. Play normal and slip in a good one now and then that makes people wonder about your superhuman powers =)
Cryptic Allusion - New Mac and Dreamcast Games!
AMEN, brother. I know what it's like. As an underpaid systems 'technician' who does as much admin work as the actual sysadmins with the title and the paycheck, I can tell you that this scenario plays itself out more often than a wrong order at the McDonalds drive-thru.
This is a sig. It is like every other sig in the world, except that it is mine, and it is different.
first of all, if you needed to change the IPs on
all the machines on the network. As far as the
machines are up, with a few lines of script, using
expect you can just from one location do that.
fuq off. by the way, tell them that firing me is dumb, since I am the only admin, I have their minix server backdoored!
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
The answer is really quite simple. I refuse to do this on a regular basis any more. Yes, once or twice a year, things happen at my current job, but not regularly. To get this job, I left a job that paid 10% more (Plus "Options" if the company goes public (They still haven't)), and came here. My average work week is 20% shorter, and I get to see my family. All that, and the new company LIKES me more
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Nobody should be able to tell you you're overqualified for a job since it is you looking for A job, regardless of your experience.
The issue with "overqualification" is that hiring the applicant is a high risk. Typically, someone will take a job to pay the bills (fancy that!), and quit as soon as they find a job more in line with their qualifications. Given the cost of training someone, if they quit in the first month or two, they lose money. It's bad enough that they have to hire a lot of students, people with am "I'm only here until I find something better, and I _will_ find something better" sign around their necks are positively frightening.
In most States, and most provinces in Canada, the "no compete" clause is unenforceable. If you're not getting what you're worth, check with a lawyer and go somewhere where you will get what you're worth...
1) You didn't have to be there. You were just helping out. That's cool, and I do it too, but I don't fool myself into thinking that my management expects it of me, or will reward me for doing it.
2) If your management comes down on you for doing work that is outside the terms of your employment, vote with your feet. If you have the skills, there are plenty of chances to have fun at work, make large sums of money and keep your sanity.
Long hellish weeks once in a while are part of what sys admins/analysts/engineers signed up for and why we are paid. But if you are doing this regularly, you are either doing something wrong, or you are expected to do more than you have resources to deal with. If the latter is the case, bug out and go somewhere else.
No one cares how much of a geek badge it is to pull all nighters except other geeks, and they don't control your paycheck.
If you are routinely spending more than 45/50 hours a week at your salaried position, all you need to do is document that fact, and tell your managers they need to hire another person. If your managers are good managers, they will. If your managers are not good at management, it's not your fault. And prioritize, prioritize, prioritize. Decide that a problem that affects 100 people is more important than a problem that affects 1 person, and let your management know this is how you decide what to work on.
No one in the industry should be surprised by that posting. WE MADE IT THIS WAY. We were the ones to push computers on households and businesses. We were the ones who decided to spend outrageous hours working in an effort to prove ourselves to our employers. We were the ones who set the system up, figured it'd be okay as is, never made a backup plan, and let it crash horribly. This is our fault and the only way it can be fixed is if we fix it. Find a REAL 40 hour a week job; plan the installation or upgrade; and don't apply for a job that you know is over your head. Someone once told me "God punishes us by granting our wishes
". Look out - here comes success.
-- Creativity knows no medium
I'm a web developer who has been the de facto Network Administrator for about a year now. I finally convinced my company to give me an old CompuDyne (that's latin for "piece of crap") P90 that I could use as a Linux firewall, and it's been slammin' out the good news for about six months now.
Can I tell stories of 70-hour weeks? Sure I can, and it's been that way since I got into the industry. If I do the math to come up with what hourly rate I make if I got paid by the hour (which I don't so it doesn't freakin' matter ), then yeah, it wouldn't be a huge amount. But like I said, I don't get paid by the hour and, if I did, I would be a contractor with no benefits. As it is, I've got great medical, which is important with a wife, 3-year-old, and another on the way. I've got a good 401(k) match and stock options. Could I cash them in and buy a house? Not yet, but that doesn't matter. I'm a part of something special. I was the fourth employee, and two years later we've got 15 or 16. This is exciting growth in an exciting industry. This is why I do it.
You want to change ISPs on me? Bring it on! Everybody uses DHCP (running on the Linux box) to get their internal IP address, IP masquerading (running on the Linux box) to get to the internet, and gets their DNS from... guess where... the Linux box. I've got 8 or 9 IP addresses bound to the external NIC card on the Linux box, so I'd have to change those, and there are a couple of other DNS things I'd have to change, but it would be pretty simple. As far as going to every client box... yeah, right! Not a chance. Sure, there are people who need hand-holding, but that's because they're morons. It's completely unrelated to any changes I make to the system. System changes are transparent, as they should be.
Sure, there's been the occasional "hey I can't do this or that", which prompts me to remember, "Oh yeah, I forgot to change the serial number in named.conf" or "I forgot to bounce the DHCP server." But that's just stupid crap I forgot to do - I can't blame anybody for that.
I don't mean to take away from the fact that people hit the "Send" button on their e-mail client and have no idea what has to happen behind the scenes... and sure, there are people who do what we do and don't get the credit for it. First of all, let's not pretend that we take each e-mail manually and route it. Once sendmail is configured, it works... and this is true for a whole lot of great, free, open source software (sendmail, apache, linux, perl to name a few). All the routing in between is somebody else's gig, and I trust my ISP to not drop that ball. And, let's be honest while we're at it, if they do drop that ball it ain't my problem. I won't like it, but I'll certainly say "the ISP dropped the ball". Somebody will say, "Fire them and get a new one," and I'll say, "Sure... no problem".
--bdj
Here's a link that links to the all of the BOFH collections. If you haven't read them before, do it now.
http://132.185.132.202/
~ Give me 101 plastic soldiers, and I will conquer the world.
Mr. Spaceley made me push the button 7 times today!
But really... I too am sorry for the writer, but I worked over 4000 in 11 months. I was travelling (meaning that I was away from home for months at a time) to a different city every 3 to 10 days. At least you all seem to be working these insane hours and get to go home at the end.
I got to fly home for Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years. I flew home on the day before and left the Monday after. I finally saw that it was doing nothing but taking its toll on me and I quit.
Now I'm making more money (I was hourly then and now), and work 8 hours a week. Not a fluke -- we are all well compensated in my area -- and work 40-hour weeks -- either from home or office.
We have work-provided cell phones and/or pager. We have been told that we only need to answer them during working hours.
I am part of a team (also working my same hours) who keep the (3-4 million hits-a-day) web servers up (among software testing and stuff like that). We get to work with the ``latest & greatest'' Unix hardware.
We get three weeks of vacation the day we start working. Mandatory comp time (manager expects not to see us in if we put in extra time). (It is necessary to put in some after-hours time to put in new production machines.)
Did I mention that we also take care of the database, development, QA servers?
Last fire I remember having to put out was that I came into work at 830am and noticed a job failed. It hit the 2gig file size limit.
-m
I get a kick out of everyone here telling this guy he doesn't need the stress or the company. I'm young. I'm single. I make *multiples* of the average salary. I freak out every time I even consider making a major change to my server configurations or the network. I have a very small social life because I work an average 60+ hours a week.
And I love it.
I come in come in to work every morning and start pounding coffee and keyboards. Half a dozen operating systems... 4 programming languages... 4 tons of manuals... 300 emails a day... multiple T1s... a bookmark list that rivals Yahoo. AAhhh... Home.
I've got at least $25k worth of computer equipment on my desk at any given moment. Every day I learn something new. Every day I do something I've never done before. Every day something interesting happens that forces me to think and learn. I still can't believe they are actually *paying ME* to play, learn, fix, and know all this stuff. What a trip!
And you know what? You love it just as much as I do. Let's face it, being a geek rocks... and their's no shortage of places to be a geek. We all know this guy can get a job somewhere else, and that it will be basically the same job with the same hours. Just new faces and a new desk. The only difference is the money really. Which is probably why we're so well paid -- we're free agents. We play for whoever pays us best, and we all love the game.
But don't crank about the hours. I'll gladly take Pep-Boy wages for playing 65 hours a week over mindless manual labor. Social life? I can recite the original 5 minute southpark short (remember Spirit of Christmas?) word for word. As an encore I'll do Return of the Jedi. Make my social life ICQ thank you very much.
Love being a geek! Live it! In 200 years they are going to make *westerns* about us: the people who built the Internet. I'm not going to complain one word about what I get to do.
Do I have any sympathy for this guy? Yeah... some crank took the last Dew. That's rough man.
-Computers hate being anthropomorphized.
I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but this is the same as every other labor-related story thats cropped up in the last few weeks on here. I bet we see the same B.S. about unions and the same arguments for and against that.
;) (Not meant to be a flame, but I do see a lot of those posts.)
As opposed to the same B.S. about "if you don't like it, leave?"
In the end though, it boils down to one thing. If you don't like it, quit. As you said, you're making multiples of the national average income for someone your age. You could always go sell clothes at The Gap or something.
False. When I recently found myself unemployed, I applied for that sort of job. Mostly because I just needed to be making money. And never got any calls back. I'm overqualified to be a sales-floor person since I've worked various data-entry-with-some-thought and secretarial jobs, not to mention have a college degree, and I have no supervisory experience so they won't hire me as a manager.
And depending on what sort of market you're in, there may or may not be one of those "other" types of jobs. Admittedly, this kind of treating employees like they have no lives is why I left the bank. (The worst example: 60-hour workweek between Christmas and New Year's, while my then-girlfriend was visiting from out of state, which contributed quite a bit to our breaking up. I know it doesn't sound that bad, but we were very much not getting paid enough, anywhere NEAR enough, to justify this. Try $8.50/hour or so. This was back in 1997; I knew that the closer we got to Y2K the worse it would get. I quit that job as of Christmas Eve 1998, thankfully.)
But as I was saying, depending on where you are and how free you are to move elsewhere, sometimes the "just leave"option is just not viable. Being overqualified for "lesser" jobs can be a serious problem if you try to go that route. Even if the job is only one step down from whatever you're doing at the moment.
Also, changing careers is difficult. When I went to the Job Service office while I was unemployed, they basically started trying to convince me to go back to the bank, when I left the bank at least in part because I don't want to work in the financial industry. (Fortunately, I got this job right before that would've happened.)
Like I said, it's just not that simple.
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
Erm, not exactly. You see, there are those pesky job applications that you have to fill out that ask what your last 3-4 jobs were and where you went to school. You also have to sign the bottom and certify that "everything is true and complete." This is pretty much what they want in retail, rather than a resume.
They can fire you if they later find out you lied. No joke.
And yes, I am fully aware of how to "tailor" a resume based on what kind of job I am trying to get. Generally, in my case, this is the "censored" vs. "uncensored" versions of my resume -- the "censored" one leaves off the experience I have in leadership roles of various campus groups that "suits" might consider questionable.
I got my current job with the uncensored version. *grin* Note to self: Burn the censored resume and never re-make it.
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
Yep, all of us on
And yes, some people just can't be bothered to think, and they do stupid things. My gripe here is with the "experts" who can't seem to distinguish between someone who is just new to computers and needs to be taught basic concepts (even those which seem ridiculously basic) and flat out can't-be-bothered-to-think stupidity.
For instance, I can understand why someone who has been using the 'net from work and wants to get connected at home doesn't understand about the need for a modem. You don't have to "dial in" at work, generally speaking, after all. It's just there for most of us. I can understand why someone whose main method of net-socialization was (pick one) MUDs, Citadel-based BBSes, or IRC would have trouble transferring command knowledge to the other two; they have very little in common. (Even typing "help" is no help when what you needed to type is "H" or "/help." *grin*) Other people I've talked to sit back and say "how stupid can you be to not understand how that works?" *sigh*
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
No matter what their actual job description is, the person who knows how to fix things when they break will be continually called upon to do so. By everyone. And I do mean continually.
My work-study job was predominantly secretarial/admin. assistant type stuff for a woman who does teacher in-service programs. She's quite intelligent, but knows very little about computers. As part of my "job" on a few different occasions, I got to go to her house and fix her personal computer. Generally, what turned out to be wrong was something fairly simple that was obvious to me, but not to her. (Her idiot ISP had misled her into thinking that 9600 baud was an appropriate speed to attempt to run Netscape on. OOOOOOOPS! Other similar problems had occurred as well.)
There were also the calls from my mother about "how do you get this to work?" She didn't want to ask my father, who knows more about computers than I do, because she didn't want the long technical explanation that she wouldn't understand anyhow, she just wanted it to WORK. I still get those calls.
Even at the other jobs I've held prior to this one, I've been the computer-savvy one and on several occasions had to spend a good piece of my day: explaining that the Budweiser Frogs virus is a hoax (and putting up with a very rude co-worker who said she'd "trust a company vice-president over a bunch of snotty college kids any day." Um, maybe the college kids actually understand computers? No, never! *sigh*), teaching people how to send e-mail, "fixing" various "bugs" directly trace-able to misunderstandings of how the program works, and answering various "how'd you do that?" questions when I had done something like change the type size on icons or the background colors in the CICS screen.
Way to keep me from getting my work done. *grin* And this is 99% end-user stuff. My father, who knows a great deal about how to set up networks, etc. (all self-taught) was really not allowed to have a life. Still isn't, sometimes.
Sometimes I'd go with him. He'd set me up to play games (when I was younger) or get into my Internet account (when I was older), and he'd work on fixing whatever the latest thing to break was. Invariably, we were there for at least an hour later than we were supposed to be. Either the problem would be more complex than he had thought, or someone would see him in the building and start hitting him with questions because they (with good reason) did not trust the actual computer services folks.
But, as far as the "real" tech folk (who have been marginal at best, dangerously incompetent at worst) go at the community college he is a professor at, he's quite unpopular. Things like stumbling across a gaping security hole in the system, pointing it out, and getting reprimanded for trying to poke holes in security. What fun.
The problem is that the faster computers and information get, the more demanding people will become that they STAY that way. And until the industry as a whole has the sense to scream "STOP IT!" in some form or another, this is going to continue. And it is going to continue to get worse. Mad as Mom and I used to get at Dad about this, and much as the stress started to take a toll on his health, I don't think that he was regularly getting only four hours of sleep and/or working 100-hour weeks. (60-80, probably, but not 100.)
I keep hoping that this problem will fade once more people get at least a basic understanding of how systems work, but we have a long way to go before that happens.
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
You're expected to keep the network running, regardless of the changes that are thrown your way or the IEU (Idiot End User, pronounced "eeww") that can't send email.
/. threads is the implication of "anyone who isn't a [sysadmin/Linux expert/programmer/insert category of your choice here] is an idiot and not worthy of my respect."
/.ers have. But that doesn't mean it's acceptable to treat them like "idiots."
:)
Classic example of what bothers me about a lot of computer experts, right there. Admittedly, it is irritating to deal with folks who don't understand computers when they just won't listen to you.
However, scattered through this and other
Here's a clue, folks. I used to work for an orthodontic school. The department chair is 77 years old, and one of the foremost experts in his particular field (treatment of facial birth defects, especially cleft lip and palate). He's been teaching since the 1950s, written books and journal articles galore, and knows less about computers than I did at the age of five.
Is this man an "idiot"? I hardly think so. People who don't have a high level of proficiency with computers are not stupid, generally speaking. They are either: (a) sufficiently old to have been using typewriters or pen-and-ink for most of their lives, and thus a bit set in their ways; (b) experts in other fields (dentistry, music, early childhood education, what-have-you) who devote a lot of time to their area of expertise and don't have enough left over to become computer gurus; or (c) honestly trying to learn and frustrated by arrogant "experts" who focus on what they are doing wrong and act as if the end-user is wasting the expert's time, not to mention by technology that becomes obsolete practically before it hits the market.
I know it gets frustrating to keep explaining "simple" concepts to someone who doesn't have the same intuitive understanding of computers that most
Hell, by some people's standards, I'm an "idiot." I'm a technical writer, not a programmer.
*steps off soapbox*
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
Good. Employers like you are exactly the sort I wouldn't want to work for anyhow.
Ah, how quickly you assume what I left off of my resume. One item was work with the campus GLB group, yes. But the other two were a more generalized student-activist group (working out of a state university in NY, which had a wonderful system that could very well get killed by Pataki and co.) and the newly-started-up gaming club.
Ever had to explain to a potential employer that no, you're really not a satanist even though you play AD&D?
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
His case is probably on the extreme side, but it's a good illustration of what it's like to be a sysadmin.
The term for what management typically perceives you to be is "cost center". That means you don't contribute to the bottom line. You are a drain on the company budget that must be minimized and justified. Politically, you are typically invisible to the rest of the company. The only time they'll ever notice you is when things aren't working. Also, typically, development groups, if their application code stinks, will blame system performance to cover up their mistakes. Granted, you can come back with performance statistics, and shift the blame back onto them, but the burden of proof will always be on you, never them.
I don't think sysadmins work any longer or shorter hours than other computer geeks do, but the hours tend to be more odd. I'd rather work 12 straight hours and know that when I go home, I'll be left in peace than work 8 hours and know I'll get paged at 4am to work another 4.
All of you out there who are thinking about becoming a syadmin, re-read that story, and think again.
I swear to god. It's "sysadmins" and "network engineers" like yourself who make this job not worth doing. You're 22, and making more than most 22 year olds who work retail and the like. You have a wife, who you never see. You may as well staple the back of your hand to your forehead now. Welcome to the computer industry, babe. It's not always about 40 hour weeks and competent ISPs. I think I worked +- 70 hours last week, and did so happily. I love my job. I love the opportunity to learn and to put the new knowledge into practice. That's what this is all about. Opportunity, doing things right the first time. Correcting things that weren't done right the first time. Do what you love, and do it well. The last thing in the world the computer industry needs are damsels in distress like yourself.
I can sure sympathize with this. Its not just a problem for net techs. This salary trap applies to lots of jobs.
I suggest exercising those stock options without cashing in. You get some extra consideration from the company -- how much depends on the company -- and you maybe get some justification for all those hours. Dividends don't amount to much as a percentage of current price, but they might be pretty attractive at the option price.
This isn't a solution of course, but it might help and it won't hurt.
Zax
-- We are Linux. Resistance is measured in Ohms.
...without your permission. Just like your mother told you when you were 6 years old.
I'm tired ot sysadmins whining about 100-hour workweeks. If you're miserable, working marathon hours, and sitting on stock options worth a decent house, LEAVE. Take an hourly contract where you get paid for those weekend deathmarches, or go solo. I worked 16 hours last Monday, and guess what? I got PAID for it.
And anyone who renumbers a network with real IPs, and doesn't use NAT and RFC 1918 networks deserves every bit of misery they get. What happens when your current flavor-of-the-week ISP drops the soap? Renumber *again*? Riiiiight.
...without your permission. Just like your mother told you when you were 6 years old.
I'm tired ot sysadmins whining about 100-hour workweeks. If you're miserable, working marathon hours, and sitting on stock options worth a decent house, LEAVE. Take an hourly contract where you get paid for those weekend deathmarches, or go solo. I worked 16 hours last Monday, and guess what? I got PAID for it.
And anyone who renumbers a network with real IPs, and doesn't use NAT and RFC 1918 networks deserves every bit of misery they get. What happens when your current flavor-of-the-week ISP drops the soap? Renumber *again*? Riiiiight.
If you're 30, have any talent, and are making less 'than high school-educated factory workers in this area.', then you're a damn fool.
Check out the SANS Salary survey for some hard numbers. One quote from last year's survey:
Seventy five percent of the administrators report 1998 salaries between $40,000 and $89,999. The average salary is $60,991.
http://www.sans.org and follow the links
Makes you want to reconsider becoming an Admin. I help set up and admin linux boxes for a school and keep them running. Fortunatly the people I help arn't very demanding in terms of service (as long as it works during the day when they are there). Even so, I often spend long days there. Fortunatly, I can do most of my work on linux without distrupting users.
I feel for you
I think the problem is that companies are making their whole businesses far too dependent on too brittle technology and too few people. So many companies these days simply grind to a halt if their network infrastructure isn't functional, and they often have just a handful of administrators to keep it running. Those people sure are in a good position to demand good pay, but if something goes wrong, they'll just have to keep working and working until it gets better; business is at a standstill until then.
Notice that Morrigan kept going for that long not just because his bosses were telling him to (although they certainly were); he stayed on out of a sense of obligation. Everyone was waiting for him to get the job done, and he felt guilty going home to grab some sleep before it was done.
I'm not a network- or sysadmin, but a programmer for Web sites -- database access and that sort of thing. While a crisis in my area is not quite as disastrous as a broken network, I nevertheless have had projects where some problem (which I didn't necessarily cause) has to be fixed right now and there's no one else besides me who can do it. I suppose I get a lot of job security that way, but in fact the situation creates nothing but stress for both me and the customer.
I don't think businesses are going to be able operate this way for very much longer. What if the only guy you've got who can maintain your network or your Web site gets run over by a truck? Or just gets fed up and leaves? If a company can afford to make itself dependent on some technology, they're going have to afford a team of administrators who can maintain it; who can cover for each other while one of them's off; and who can relieve each other in shifts if a problem is taking too long to solve. Maybe you can't pay three or four sysadmins as much as you can pay one or two, but you can offer them better working conditions and a chance to have lives of their own. I'll bet more than a few admins will take that deal.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
You can use DHCP forwarders on each subnet (more than one for redundancy) to solve this problem and use a single DHCP server. This limits broadcasts to their own subnet and "converts" a DHCP broadcast into a directed traffic from that point on. This feature is built into NT workstation among other systems. DHCP may have its problems, but this one is easily fixed.
this sig has been rated E for Everyone.
What employers HAVE to realize, and soon, is that as "fun" as you make a work environment, at the end of the day, we are all human beings, not automatons and we you mistreat the body, the mind breaks as well.
An upswing in unionization is coming, for better or for worse. Conditions in some high-tech workplaces are deplorable...workers rights are nearly nonexistent. To make matters worse there is a growing disparity between the haves and the have-nots even in the same companies. The management is getting wealthy, the top few workers have the stock options to hopefully keep themselves fed into retirement, but the helpdesk staff, and non-coders in these companies are crying out for equality.
TheGeek
http://www.geekrights.org
TheGeek
http://www.geekrights.org
Kill the monkey
Your story sounds very familiar... the biggest problem that I've found over the years is that the people paying your salary are often the ones that don't care how the emial gets there as long as it does, and so make a large fuss when you put in all the overtime hours/ask for a raise etc... In the end, I decided that I was fed up of doing 70 hours and being paid for 40 so I'm now in the contracting game... get paid for the hours you actually work... much more satisfying...
-~ Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier. ~-
As mentioned by another commentator CONTRACT. Get paid for your hours and suddenly things become much rosier. The best bet is to get them to pay you to carry the pager, a minimum per call taken, double time for actually doing anything. Then you not only get to knock yourself out working 100 hr weeks but earn the equivalent of 160 hrs - or 4 weeks per week - which means in 13 weeks you earn what you would in 12 months. Then you have the choice money or time. Currently I choose the time option whenever possible as most people don't REALLY want to pay $150 per hour because their PC doesn't work after they loaded the latest game.
So in short if you price it right you only work excessive hours when it has business implications and additionally there is a financial argument for having 2 people rather than one. If you let them they will walk all over you.
Speaking from experience working 24/7 for NO extra pay when a lowly paid oik is NOT why I spent 4 years studying ( well OK in the Pub)
I would argue that the real problem is that systems like NT and Linux are designed such that so many routine uses require your face.
Why should it require our best gurus just to keep the email flowing? Is that not a waste of talent?
Mistake number one was trusting an ISP to do anything right, and squeezing the time constraints to fit their schedule. If the ISP wants business, they'll do it your way unless they're also a telco.
It seems the farther up you go from net tech, the more the "I don't care about that" mentality blossoms. Your boss worries but has no understanding of what goes into networking, so he somewhat cares. The ISP doesn't worry at all unless you stop payment on the setup-fee check, and their telco provider doesn't know you exist, much less care about your service.
I guess the X-files paraphrase works if you're a sysadmin; TRUST NO-ONE! Always assume that an external entity is going to fsck you and plan on them doing it at the most inopportune time.
/m
I thought I was the only one, under paid and abused. He hit the nail right on the head, everything, everyword I could related to. Many we should demand high wage plus time and a half for anything over 40 hours.
Sympathy first: I, and all of us who make the machine go, feel for you. From one point of view, you are a noble hero trapped in an evil system.
_ __
You may, however, take another point of view that will give you your life back - you don't need this job. This job needs you.
That's how they sucked you in, right? You're "mission essential". You're "on the team" and the team needs 110% from every player, right? It's YOUR JOB and you'll LET YOUR TEAMMATES DOWN if you don't live for it.
I'm going to indulge in a bit of personal speculation here, so I ask that you not be offended if it isn't you; it's a profile that tech employers look for, and your post shows some of the signs.
You are young, technically competant (perhaps even brilliant), have a powerful work ethic, and little social life. You probably relocated to take this job, further separating you from non-work involvements. You want money, of course, but also recognition of your value.
This looks complimentary, from my perspective - but you must realize that your employers do not think like you, or me - they are an alien race. To them, you are a "technical person": i.e., not a real person. When they find someone who fits the profile above, it's like hitting the lottery - they can buy your whole life for the price of a real person's 40 hour week!
You've already made the connection to hourly pay, which is good. Check this out, too - do you make more than the CEO of the company? More than the CFO? No?
Were eithier of those working at 4 am last Friday in a 90 degree room? Do they ever have "emergencies"? NO?
Hmmm.... Now, in a logical world, that should mean that you are more important. You HAVE TO make it work. It is CRITICAL. What the CEO does isn't - it can wait for morning.
So there is a twisted prestige involved, too - you must be important. They tell you how critical you are all the time.
Consider that for a moment - if anyone is that critical, a very foolish management decision has been made. What if that critical person is killed in an accident? The business closes and everyone goes home, right? After all, that ONE PERSON was the only one who could keep it running, and keep us competitve - without him, we just have to quit.
Have you ever heard of that happening?
Was the SysAdmin "mission critical"? When did he switch from being essential to being disposable? What changed?
Nothing.
It's a lot cheaper to provide the illusion of importance than to hire enough people to actually run a 24/7 operation. They are lieing to you, and if you buy it, you will someday be disposed of when someone needs a scapegoat for a failed policy.
I could keep ranting for pages, but it is time to sum up: You are getting robbed of your time, and you cannot expect the robbers to stop it if you don't make them.
Take less money; ditch the prestige. Work where your boundaries are respected. When you are off, be OFF - no pager, no phone calls. Remember, even surgeons and nurses ( who are compensated specifically for on-call time, even if they are not called) get days of inaccessability.
If you want the money, contract your work on your terms by the hour, and reject jobs when you feel like you are working too much - you will find that this might make you even more valuable because you are so hard to get.
When the brilliant "technical people" are no longer offering whole lives for sale at bargain rates, the business minds will begin to give over reasonable staffing plans - but not until what they are now doing hurts them. It is up to us, folks.
Pat.
_______________________________________________
Remember, there is no "I" in team - but there is a "U" in F___ YOU!
I totally understand, the long hours, being under appreciated, under payed etc. I remember being young and thinking I could do it all. I've only got 9 years of experiance, but when I first started, I thought I could do it all and quickly, I tried to be "superman", provide really cool and useful apps, networks, etc. really fast. That way I would be "The Man". Unfortunatally, I learned the hard way. I ended up becoming overweight, mad and bitter. I've changed, I've admitted to myself I don't know everything, but I will learn and correct the problem. Probably the most important thing I've learned is how to handle management and politics.
We as system admins./network techs/etc. have delievered the message that we can make it work fast and easy. We know there will be problems, from my experince I though IT managers knew this also and would let other managers in the company know. Oh, well. The same goes for the Windows problem. I remember thinking "...I could get more done if I didn't have to tell people how to use a program...", "...if they just had a mouse and a icon they could do it on their own..." know I long for the days of a Mainframe and terminals.
Just my $0.02
As another in the countless horde of the "been there, done that, probably going to do it again" types, I feel that the only wisdom I can add to this is a little reality check:
You are not curing cancer.
You are not saving the world from mass destruction
go home.
Too often, I find that we sysadmins shoot ourselves in the foot by trying too hard to meet a user's requests. We get a project request, bust our ass to complete the project in record time, and please the user community immensely. This is all fine and good until we get another project request, and now we're expected to complete it in record time as well because "you did it once before, why can't you do it again?" Usually, in the first instance, it was not necessary for us to complete our project so quickly. Our users would have probably been happy if it was finished a week or two later, but we delivered if only to demonstrate that we could. But then we've doomed ourselves, because now the user expects miracles to happen; s/he actually makes plans based on the fact that miracles occur on a regular basis. And we chastise them for their naivete, even if we set them up for it in the first place by working hard when we really shouldn't.
Why do we work so hard? Part of it is to keep the high-paying job, but it's mostly because we take some sort of masochistic pride in burning the midnight oil longer than anyone else; working on some component that has been deemed mission critical by someone who has grown too lazy to know how to conduct business with an abacus. And we call this martyr syndrome professionalism.
But in the end, for most of us who work for corporate or academic institutions, what have we accomplished when we finally go home? Some people can receive an e-mail about "How to make $$$$ FAST" in ten seconds instead of ten minutes. Some people can make more money in less time. Some people never notice that anything changed. Their lives go on.
I'm not saying that we should be fat and lazy, but we shouldn't be burning ourselves out when we don't have to. Yes, there will always be projects and network outages and an ever-increasing pile of work that we need to tunnel out of, but no it doesn't have to all be done today. Any project that requires any sort of planning should be done without anticipating anything like overtime. If overtime is required, it has to be for a good reason. Too often, we bitch about having unreasonable project deliverable dates, but that's usually because we just don't know well enough to push back.
Yup no one really cares how things get done, or even why the get done. Nor do bosses, such as mine, care or even understand how techies tend to work. I'm paid to have my tail in a chair for 40 hours a week, carry a pager and can't even leave town the same time as our other admin/engineer cause something MIGHT happen (to cheap to pay for global paging and laptops). On call 24/7, required to stay at work whenever something fails until it's fixed, and provide support to customers and everyone else when it doesn't work the way it always does
I wouldn't complain, if it weren't for the fact that I don't make twice the national average, hell I don't make more than 25k a year, get 1 week vacation a year, no stock options and benefits consist of "Dedicated Internet Connection" on a phone line I pay for out of my check that makes working at Wal-Mart look tempting.
I'd leave and go to another company but that'd violate my no compete clause. So while I and the other engineer's and admins polish up their resume's, we await the final death blow of this ISP. Then I won't complain as much, if for no other reason than the fact that'd I'd actually be making enough money to no longer qualify for food stamps.
So complain and complain I will, but only for another 1.23 minutes. After which my lunch hour is over and I have to get back to making sure my boss can play freecell faster than all hell and look at all the webpages to find more things wrong with the system to complain about and tell us to fix.
I've given up networking to become a monk. Worrying about my immortal soul was less stressful than providing 100% uptim