GNUstep 0.6.0

Fafhrd writes "The latest version of GNUstep, 0.6.0, has just been released. It has evolved a lot from 0.5.5, from six months ago. Check it out. " The website has also been given a beautiful facelift.

Comments

Re:Window managers

[dan_b]

> (The site happens to be down now btw... foo.)

I think it moved. Try http://scwm.mit.edu instead

-dan

Re:I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Correct again. GnuStep is really the oldest of the three, but work is proceeding more slowly
>>on GnuStep than the other two (because the GnuStep people have set themselves a larger
>>task) and GnuStep doesn't get as much press.

Extremely correct.
Gnustep does not only provide objects for GUI programming. It also provides objects for data, for networking, for accessing files, for threading, for user preferences, and much more.

The Gnustep core library is divided in three parts:

base: (general, non-GUI objects) This library is finished. It is stable, and reasonably fast.

gui: (GUI objects) This library is under work. It is almost completed, but not yet stable.

xgps: (backend for GUI objects) This contains the interface between the gui library and the X Windows System. It is almost completed, but not yet stable.


>>--Phil (If only I had the time to learn Objective-C and help out.)
Btw, learning Objective-C is a matter of hours, not days, if you already know C and what OO programming means.

Easy GNUstep Install for RedHat...

[Steven Borrelli]

I'd like to congratulate the GNUstep team on the release of 0.6. The libraries have matured to the point that end user apps are starting to come around, and the project seems to be gaining momentum.

I've written a GNUstep Redhat HOWTO that makes it easy to get up and running quickly with GNUstep on your RH box. Try it out and send me your comments!

Re:elegance

[magnetx]

The icon boxes take up WAY too much real estate.

Re:Hopefully a nicer look someday?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry but if you don't like NEXTSTEP then you have bad taste. The widgets are elegant, refined, beautiful even. Everything about it is stylish, simple and cool. A lot of people agree - which is why Window Maker's so popular.

Their website is OK the server is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

localhost~$ HEAD www.gnustep.org
500 Server Error
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 19:26:30 GMT
Server: BESTWWWD/2.4
Content-Type: text/html
Client-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 19:34:28 GMT
Client-Peer: secret
MIME-Version: 1.0

They regularly get this "hard limit" crap - can someone help these guys out a bit? They should have access to a GOOD (apache based) web server that might eventually let them play with GNUStepWeb Objects etc etc.

They're all busy (all ~ 12 core coders heh heh) working on finalizing ObjC framework and the web server problem is only gonna get worse as the project gains popularity. And it will gain popularity because Mac/NeXT developpers are paying attention ...

Re GNUStep. The amazing thing is that something so good could be made so quickly (yes *quickly*) by so ***FEW*** coders. The same goes for NeXT really. The ObjC framework is very productive.

Quickly? you say ... Yes: they have done much more than create a "desktop" since there's more to GS than meets the eye. GS apps will be truly cross platform and the framework is designed to be agnostic about displays ... when comparing to how quickly KDE has developped be sure to take into account whether KDE apps were designed so they ever might compile on MacOS/X server Win32, "X-less" display systems (berlin) etc. etc.

Re:elegance

[profi]

> I'd like to hear some criticisim. Anybody out there NOT like NeXTStep?

(Raises hand)

I personally can't stand the interface. The file browser is atrocious, and the vertical menus are not as easy to hit as the Mac menubar. Also, the proportions are all wrong (huge icons, miniscule fonts).

I *do* like the API though.

GNUstep site has bandwidth limitation

[suitcase]

"The GNUstep site has a bandwidth limitation, so we have screenshots available from various other sites. Check them out!"

Re:elegance

[SeanNi]

Umm... I used to think I would hate it. Coming from an OS/2 background, the idea of not being able to put icons on the desktop horrified me.

Then I got the chance to use WindowMaker.

Criticisms? Ummm.... no.
--
- Sean

Re:Hopefully a nicer look someday?

[SeanNi]

Ok, my one, single and only gripe about NeXTStep's looks (or OpenStep, or GNUStep or whatever):

The radiobuttons and checkboxes aren't consistent with each other. Checkboxes get checked and unchecked. Which is fine. Radio (option?) buttons get blanked out, which is also fine. But the two styles jar with each other...

I just wish they were a tad more consistent; either checking the checkboxes and buttoning the radio/option buttons, or blanking the checkboxes and blanking the buttons.

But seriously, it's my only gripe. Aside from that, the entire interface is beautifully, elegantly self-consistent. And a total dream to work in.
--
- Sean

Read Again...

[SeanNi]

> Doesn't enlightenment do this for you already?

I would really like to see a project like Reveal for windows.

Last time I checked, Enlightenment wasn't available for Windows :-)
--
- Sean

Re:elegance

[osu-neko]

That's easy to solve:

% cat .xsession
#!/bin/sh
exec wmaker -nodock -noclip

What are they for, anyways? I've never grokked docks/wharfs/panels. It seems like an annoying way to duplicate the same functionality already available by right clicking on the desktop or (on my system) hitting the Menu key under WM.

--

Re:Apps for GNUstep?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course there are NO apps for GNUStep. As far as commercial support is concerned, GNUStep is a stillborn. They can only hope for some scraps from the MacOS X developer community.

Re:Window managers

[jammer]

Do you mean something like scwm?

(The site happens to be down now btw... foo.)

So is there anything wrong with GNUStep?

[Paul Carver]

I've never heard anything but praise for NextStep. I've never used it, but everyone who has seems to have only good things to say about it. I use WindowMaker on my machine, and although I use some GTK+ apps I haven't found any compelling reason to use either Gnome or KDE.

Are there any disadvantages to GNUStep compared to Gnome or KDE? Does anyone have any problems with NextStep that can't be overcome without switching to a completly different system?

Re:So is there anything wrong with GNUStep?

[pli]

Are there any disadvantages to GNUStep compared to Gnome or KDE?

Gnome and KDE have a lot more apps, there are not very many apps using GNUstep yet, hopefully they will come.

Does anyone have any problems with NextStep that can't be overcome without switching to a completly different system?

Nextstep was/is a great system, I used it and loved it, BUT there was one big disadventage, the lack of applications.

Re:So is there anything wrong with GNUStep?

[Anonymous Coward]

IMHO the fundamental disadvantage was price. NEXTSTEP fans were only really interested in selling consulting services to the Fortune 50.

Re:I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[Otter]

I tried using Windowmaker as the KDE window manager for a while. I found it really sluggish (on a 604e/150) and between the Application menu and the dock icons, I didn't really need the kpanel.

My current environment of choice is putting Kfm in the WindowMaker startup list. It gives me a nice file browser, desktop icons and MacOS-style CD and floppy icons, and is still lighning quick and looks gorgeous.

GNUStep is an object framework, not a desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a set of classes organized into frameworks.

Fundamentally, these classes are organized into two frameworks, the GUI framework and the foundation framework. The organization of these frameworks reflects the OpenStep specification published by NeXT in the early '90s. You can think of the GUI framework as something like java.awt.*, and the foundation framework as everything else in java except java.net*. There are also some peripheral database modeling classes, etc.

The classes are written in Objective C, the one true C-based object language. =) It is entirely backward-compatible with ANSI C, and is supported in the most recent version of egcs. The syntax is based on Smalltalk, which means you have method calls and assignments that look like

id object = [myObject doSomething:withParameter];

The language is weakly typed, so you can refer to every object as type "id" [eye dee]. You can also use strong typing, so you would end up with an assignment like

NSSomeObject object = [myObject doSomething:withParameter];

As an aside, the creators of Java admitted to being heavily influenced by Objective C's design--one major creator of Java was ready to work for NeXT and was personally intercepted by McNealy to help Gosling with Java.

GNUStep isn't a desktop, although it, like OPENSTEP and any other GUI-based framework, promotes some sort of user interface consistency, such as consistent L&F title bars, buttons, etc.

What it lacks is a development environment, but I am hot on the trail. You may think I'm kidding but I am not. =)

........... kris

Yes, apps for GNUStep

[Anonymous Coward]

• GNUmail.App
• GFinder
• MPlay
• GSBench
• ICQstep
• Currency Converter
• PPPControl.app
• Project Center
• FileViewer.app
• Edit.app
• GNUlibrarian.app
• CD Player
• ProcViewer

What's holding up Display Ghostscript?

[Shreck]

Of all the things that are interesting about GNUStep, the one that I really lust for is Display Ghostscript. What the heck is the holdup in that area? The last version is a year and a half old! I've been casually following GNUStep's development over the years, and the glacial pace of DGS development has been irking me the whole time. It's not even something one could join in and help, AFAIK, the code was contracted out to a commercial company.

Any DGS coders out there care to comment? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Re:What's holding up Display Ghostscript?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are woking on it, aguy from Japan is, I just read on the disscussion list that they have been aplying patches from DGS/DPS to deir actual XDPS implementation, and they went all the way from Xraw to XDPS, thay have been working, alot!

Re:OPENSTEP OO API

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm the original poster of "OPENSTEP OO API".

Yes, it's sad that it took nearly 8 year from we first saw NeXTSTEP to we see something in the same league. I would have jumped on the OPENSTEP train years ago if I had had money for at NeXTCube... I only later got to work with the API.

OPENSTEP is still great and GNUStep will definitely have a place on my HD. ...maybe even running on HURD :)

Someone argued that BeOS could not be good when it kept changing.
The basic BeOS API have not changed in since the first non-developers release. It has been extended and new API-kits have been added. Some kits has been replaced completely...But not the basig App-kit and Interface-Kit and Kernel-Kit.

Why shouldn't you be allowed to improve even a brilliant product? As far as I know Apple has done some modifications to OPENSTEP too.

Yes... C++ ..ahem... that other language suffers from the fragile base class problem, but that's doesn't make the BeOS API less elegant.

It is

[VinceJH]

http://www.kjofol.org/e/

I have no idea if it works well, but the screenshots look "COOL" and it seems to be compatible with normal E themes.

Re:nice, slashdot effect

[bil]

Post more stories. Or at least save up stories and post them all in one go, say every hour on the hour or something.

At the moment when a story is posted everyone imediately goes to the site, slashdotting it, however if say three (equally interesting) stories were posted at the same time then everyone would go off in different directions with each site getting one third of the slashdot effect, which they should (hopefully) be able to withstand. When people had finished reading they would move on to one of the other stories, but as most stories take (roughly) the same amount of time to read, everyone should swap round at roughly the same time, so the load on any one site would never get too high. Alternativly they would come back and post a comment, in which case they would stop being part of the slashdot effect until they'd finished, when hopefully things had quietened down a bit.

This wouldn't help much if one story was far more interesting then the others, so you might still have to mirror some sites, but hopefully not every single one :)

bil

Re:elegance

[schussat]

I've never grokked docks/wharfs/panels. It seems like an annoying way to duplicate the same functionality

I agree. I mean, they look sort of cool, but are they adding functionality? Everywhere I look, it's "dockapp" this and "wharf" that. Am I doing something wrong by just adding apps and things to my menu and then running them when I want their functionality?

-Alan
-perhaps I'm just simpleminded?

GNUstep + NetWinder = STEPwinder!

[Patrix]

For anyone who has a NetWinder and is intersted in GNUstep, I have a website where you can get RPMs and SRPMs for NetWinders. I don't have version 0.6.0 yet, but I'll get it there as soon as possible. http://www.netwinder.org/~patrix Patrix.

Re:Apps for GNUstep?

[Anonymous Coward]

We're working on a scrap - we're keeping an eye on GNUstep with the aim of doing a port of our GlyphiX drawing app (Mac OS X, NEXTSTEP app). Mark OAAI.COM

Nextstep documentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Start here: http://www.peak.org/next/index.html Or click here: http://www.peak.org/next/documents/next/UIGuide.ta r.gz There's plenty of info on next and openstep there including schematics.

Yeah, but what can it do for me?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's so late in the day that I doubt I'll get a reply to my post here, but what the hey. I've read posts that kind of explain that GNUStep is the GNU implementation of the OpenStep specification, and that it's "so much more" than KDE or GNOME. My question is, how? I'm running WindowMaker right now. If I install GNUStep, what is added? What does it allow me to do? How is it so much more than KDE or GNOME? Thanks, Coward, Anony

Here's the reason for wharfs/docks, etc.

[J. J. Ramsey]

The idea for wharfs or docks is more or less to have quick access to the apps that you use the most. Apps that aren't so popular can still be accessed by the root menu, which "ideally" is supposed to act sort of like a "Start" menu and have entries for all the apps one has (I leave "ideally" in quotes because I'm sure many of you would question the value of using the root menu as a "Start" menu.)

Re:What's new?

[ebenson]

Here is the main progress page:

http://gnustep.403forbidden.net/information/progre ss.html

(off topic like the 2 prev.posts) incorrect link

[Anonymous Coward]

the link in the previous post that points to the berlin-consortium spells 'consoritum' in the locationbar when clicked. might be handy to fix that ;-)

best regards
wim

The website looks great!

[Lev_Arris]

I have to agree that the website looks real great now. Some small nice graphics used to implement the design but now overloaded with moving blinking thingies.

Now all I have to do is find out what on earth GNUstep is supposed to be ;)

Side bars...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hhm.. the web site looks very nice indeed. I didn't really check, but do they still refuse to support side bars? ;-) Basically one of my main reasons for NOT using this is because the lack of side bars gives me a very uncomfortable, agoraphobic feeling. :-) Tal. (too lazy to login)

Web Site

[Psiren]

Actually the web site has been like that for quite a while. I guess it doesn't get much attention. It's a pity, since NeXTStep (which GNUStep/OpenStep is based upon) was one of the most comfortable environments I've ever used. It had a few niggles, but overall it was just a dream to use. I can only hope that GNUStep will get more developers so that we can begin to use it.

Re:Web Site

[Anonymous Coward]

I am following the GNUstep development, and I'd like to say that GNUstep is very very near to be usable. The bugs which remain are mostly shallow; the framework is powerful, the library is well organized, the design is cool, debugging is easy. Give it a try. In six months it'll run.

Re:nice, slashdot effect

[holloway]

BTW anyone think of a solution to the /.effect ? Surely it's just going to get worse.

Mirrors of susceptible sites linked to in main /. stories would be the obvious way. Perhaps a script that backed up anything (html,images,stylesheet) linked in a main ./ story 1 page deep and put the site on slashdotted.org.

Slashdotted already?

[CoolVibe]

See subject

Window managers

[Lonesmurf]

I would really like to see a project like Reveal for windows. It's a nice thing to be able to change around alot of settings and alter bitmaps, but i really want to be able to hack out my own Window manager for my specific needs. Lonesmurf

Re:Window managers

[Suydam]

Doesn't enlightenment do this for you already?

nice, slashdot effect

[Mr.Robf]

Seems like the three people previous to myself have killed the webserver over at gnustep. This is a pitty, I wonder what webserver they are using.

BTW anyone think of a solution to the /.effect ? Surely it's just going to get worse.

Re:nice, slashdot effect

[CoolVibe]

Seems like the three people previous to myself have killed the webserver over at gnustep. This is a pitty, I wonder what webserver they are using.

BTW anyone think of a solution to the /.effect ? Surely it's just going to get worse.

I think the problem is that the GNUStep site doesn't have much bandwidth. I vaguely remember the GNUstep site mentioning this. So yes, it *is* going to get worse :-(

Re:nice, slashdot effect

[ViGe]

BTW anyone think of a solution to the /.effect ? Surely it's just going to get worse.

Sure. Mirroring the website before posting the url, and pointing the url to the mirror.
--

Re:nice, slashdot effect

[Sensor]

A couple of people have suggested mirroring the site... but that sounds like quite a lot of work if you want to expand it accross all stories posted.

howabout a /. proxy (storyproxy.slashdot.org)? Would it be possible to set it up so that only URL's (and thier sub directories?) actually posted within main stories would be cached?

It would have a lower maintenance than trying to mirror every site that get posted on /. but I guess it would still cost quite a few $$$ in bandwidth and machines.

Besides think what it would do to the polls if 30-40% of users all went throught he /. proxy?

*grin*

just thoughts

Tom

Re:nice, slashdot effect

[Sylvain]

This solution is only available for websites which agree to be mirrored. If slashdot must wait the authorization to mirror, stories won't be plublished so quick.

The matter isn't to get the agreement but to get it quick. I suppose that websites which don't want to be mirrored know what they do and have suffisant ressources to support the slashdot effect.

Re:nice, slashdot effect

[scrytch]

A lot of news sites get real peeved at having their stories mirrored, because it deprives them of ad impressions. There's some pretty advanced cache control mechanisms in http/1.1 that could satisfy both sides. They can be stuck in META http-equiv tags, but the adoption rate of that by authors has been, oh, zero or so. Story's a little better with server software, but god knows there's no front end to the advanced cache control mechanisms.

So the solution is already at hand, just no one bothers to actually utilize it.

Re:nice, slashdot effect

[tzanger]

remember cachedot? Why can't we do something similar...

to wit: Rob visits said page through a squid cache. the page gets cached. Now the links he provides go to the cache first... kinda proxy the whole thing.

And... if Rob were to open up the ICP features of squid, others could share the cache information without bogging down his cache...

mind you, it's gonna take some bandwidth to do the latter...

Andrew

Mirrors and What is GNUstep?

[kris]

There are plenty of mirrors of the GNUstep pages. Please chose one of Georgia, USA, Quebec, CA, France, Europe, Germany, Europe.

What is GNUstep?

GNUstep is an attempt to provide an Object-Oriented application development framework and tool set for use on a wide variety of computer platforms. GNUstep is based on the original OpenStep specification provided by NeXT, Inc. (now Apple).

GNUstep is written in Objective-C, the language from which the Signal/Slot concept of Qt was borrowed. Objective-C is basically standard C with one single syntax addition and a dozen or so additional keywords. That is all that is needed to implement an object system that is more powerful than that of that other language. In Objective-C all method calls are done via a mechanism that is similar to, but slighly more efficient than, the signal/slot mechanism of Qt. This has some interesting implications for the implementation of remote method invocation, on object serialization and some other things that are very hip in a Corba context.

Like Nextstep, GNUstep has a record of technical excellence that even today is unmatched by any other object framework, and of abysmal PR performance (also unmatched :-). A current commercial implementation of the same API (same API, different code) is the foundation of MacOS X.

Re:Mirrors and What is GNUstep?

[scrytch]

It's just too bad that that one single syntax addition is doesn't look anything like C, it's smalltalk just bolted onto the side without any real consideration for C idioms.

Now to be fair, you can't really overload operators in C and still remain a strict superset of C, so perhaps the odd appearance of it is to make it act more like embedded smalltalk that integrates with C rather than an evolution of C per se.

Anyway, here's an example.



#import "DotView.h"

@implementation DotView

- init
{
if(![super init]) return nil;

// Let x and y initially run between -1 and 1.
[self setDrawSize:2.0 :2.0];
[self setDrawOrigin:-1.0 :-1.0];

// Set initial dot position.
dot_position.x = dot_position.y = 0.0;
return self;
}

/. ?

[vr]

The site does not appear to be slashdotted from where I'm at.

I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[Anonymous Coward]

Please clear up my confusion:

AFAIK GnuStep is not related to Gnome at all, right? (I currently don't get through to gnustep.org or gnome.org at all)

So do we have at least three free desktop environments on *nix? (except plain windowmanager + plain X11 apps) GnuStep, Gnome and KDE?

And what's the relation WindowMakerGnome? Is it just that some Gnome user use it because they like it more than E(nlightenment)? (Does Gnome
has a "default" windowmanager at all?)

(Sorry, I'm just a WindowMaker user and haven't cared about all the fuzz about KDE&co., so please excuse my lack of knowledge.)

Re:I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[Psiren]

GNUStep isn't a desktop environment. It's far more than that. It aims to be a complete implementation of OpenStep.

Yes, some people prefer Window Maker to Enlightenment. Me for one ;) AFAIK, Gnome doesn't have a default Window Manager, since virtually all can be used. Some work better than others because they have Gnome support, but I'm pretty sure it isn't essential.

Re:I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[warp]

Not a flame but, KDE == sluggish. Heck, as nice as KDE might be, it's slow as molasses on my Alpha. You should try Window Maker without KDE, then it will simply scream...

Re:I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[bjk4]

I've been able to use WindowMaker with both Gnome and KDE. I haven't tried to use it with anything else. Here are the reasons I use it:

1. Much, much, much faster than Enlightenment. Menus and such load instantly (180 Mhz 604e here) and windows are quick on their feet. Even dragging if faster.
   
2. Full featured workspace environment. I have mine setup so that you can drag a window across workspaces, but you cannot move your mouse between them without dragging a window. You can use any workspace app you wish.
   
3. Gnome & KDE compatibility. I like the gnome-panel, so I use it. Simple as that.
   
4. Theme support. Window Maker comes with a number of pretty themes. Although they lack some of the features Enlightenment offers, they are configurable and lightning fast on my computer.
   
5. Solid. Of all the window managers I've tried, this one has the most solid feel. This is very important to me.
   

In short, I highly recomment Window Maker to anyone who is curious. Since it is interchangable with Englightenment, you can quickly try it out. Just remember that you need to configure things before you'll like you desktop. Enlightenment was the same way about this, so don't get annoyed that it uses different colors than you like at first -- everything can be changed.

-Ben

Re:I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[tzanger]

I've used WindowMaker on my home computer quite often and found it very nice. I've used it on my laptop here and found it very nice.

I'd heard that E was lightning fast, so I gave it a shot. It *is* quick, but not so much as WindowMaker is. Even CVS versions of E (0.16.something_from_yesterday) aren't so fast. They add many, MANY nice things, but I think I'll stick to WindowMaker.

Re:I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[Anonymous Coward]

> And what's the relation WindowMakerGnome?

Sorry, I had written Windowmaker<->Gnome, misspressed Submit instead of Preview and the <-> got eaten with "Plain Old Text" (Don't ask me why) :-)

Re:I'm confused: GnuStep Gnome and WindowMaker

[Phil Gregory]

Quoth an Anonymous One:

Please clear up my confusion:

I'll certainly try.

AFAIK GnuStep is not related to Gnome at all, right? (I currently don't get through to gnustep.org or gnome.org at all)

Correct. They are entirely different projects, with different goals. They just both happen to be GNU projects.

So do we have at least three free desktop environments on *nix? (except plain windowmanager + plain X11 apps) GnuStep, Gnome and KDE?

Correct again. GnuStep is really the oldest of the three, but work is proceeding more slowly on GnuStep than the other two (because the GnuStep people have set themselves a larger task) and GnuStep doesn't get as much press.

And what's the relation WindowMakerGnome? Is it just that some Gnome user use it because they like it more than E(nlightenment)? (Does Gnome has a "default" windowmanager at all?)

WindowMakerGnome is WindowMaker with Gnome compatibility. That is, the Gnome people have published specifications for making a window manager work well with Gnome, and WindowMaker supports those. I believe that WindowMaker also supports KDE, too. (Gnome does not have an "official" window manager.)

For a general discussion of what GNUStep is, see this post. In a nutshell, GnuStep is a GPLed implementation of the OpenStep specification, which grew out of the NextStep system. I'll also add the NextStep was the most beautifully designed system I've ever seen.


--Phil (If only I had the time to learn Objective-C and help out.)

OPENSTEP OO API

[Anonymous Coward]

Like Nextstep, GNUstep has a record of technical excellence that even today is unmatched by any other object framework

Having worked with a lot of very different OO APIs. Academic and industrial I must say the above is no longer true.
The BeOS OO API is just as elegant and technical excellent as OPENSTEP. Yes.. BeOS is written in "that other language", but the API is by far the most elegant I've seen.

I don't dispute that ObjC is a better and more dynamic language than that other language and OPENSTEP is surely a brilliant, but no longer unmatched.

Re:OPENSTEP OO API

[Anonymous Coward]

It is just sad that we are now only starting to see things that remotely approach the level of NEXTSTEP/OpenStep. Those have been out for over ten years now! It really IS sad that people were put to sleep by Microsoft for so long. People expectation of a PC is nowhere close (read: much lower!) than what it was in 1988. I for one am hoping to see GNUstep released on Linux. This would be a great way to start having properly interacting applications and services.

Re:OPENSTEP OO API

[GnorpH]

If this was true, why would they change their API every 'major' release again? ...

BTW the OpenStep/Cocoa API is much more powerfull, I believe, and it has proven its power for 12 years now, mainly in the Enterprise Business, with only minor changes!

Re:OPENSTEP OO API

[Shadowlion]

>If this was true, why would they change their API every 'major' release again? ..

Please tell me you aren't that dense.

Which changes would those be? The Media Kit, where they did a complete rewrite of their media subsystem, and you still expect them to maintain the exact same API? Or would that be the Network Kit, where they're *adding* a C++ API layer on top of the existing C calls, not replacing.

Or would it be the addition of several new kits - such as the Input Server Kit - that allows people to make input server add-ons for devices such as mice, keyboards, and tablets without having to go through the entire rigamarole of having to write a brand-new driver?

They *change* the API only when it becomes useless not to do so. Maintaining the old interface to the Media Kit would've been plain stupid, considering how much functionality would've been hidden to the programmer. Further, given that BeOS is explicitly designed to reduce the number of hacks around poor design decisions, adding a compatability layer would go against BeOS' design ethos - much like using microkernels or disabling streams goes against the idea of Linux and UNIX, respectively.

As for the power of OpenStep/Cocoa, you said it all with two words 'I believe.' The other poster was offering his opinion as well. So we have two dueling opinions. Guess what, opinion isn't objective fact (no pun intended). He's not right, but neither are you. Deal with it.

Re:Apps for GNUstep?

[Daniel]

There's a pre-alpha file manager, fsviewer. I tried it and..well..it has a ways to go, it only has the very basic funtionality and isn't very stable. It looks nice, though. :)
Nothing is stopping you from writing a program with GNUStep, though.
Daniel

(OFF Topic) slashdot effect, mirroring...

[pipo]

Mirroring is a simple solution, but it will certainly lead to copyright problems when it comes to commercial sites (images & text are often copyrighted...)

Has anybody here a clue about whether it's possible to build a dynamic proxying/mirroring system, like:

User visits slashdot
User clicks on "GnuStep", wich links to the mirroring system
[Mirroring system]
User IP is in : contact mirror, and give it the *real* request URL. The mirror acts like, hum... a proxy (but more specific than your ISP's one)

The mirroring system would be kind of a 'public' infrastructure, wich I think could solve copyright problems... If not, at least we could proxy/mirror the community web sites (Gnustep for example...)

does it sound possible ?

A Couple More Questions

[Anonymous Coward]

I was once given an account on a Next station for a class. I spent a little time playing around with it, then wandered away since I really didn't need if for the class. I should have spent more time with it, because from what I've heard since it sounds like a really good platform for power users. So I've been following the development of GNUstep with some interest.

I believe that GNUstep is planning to use WindowMaker as its desktop manager. What I would like to know is how well WindowMaker actually behaves like the original Next/Openstep desktop manager. Anyone out there have experience on both systems? Also, is there any on-line documentation for the Next user interface guidelines (I've heard there is a book, but I have enough books as it is...)?

Re:A Couple More Questions

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a lot like the window management on NeXTStep. The dock is basically the same, the double-click on an application icon to bring all of its windows to the front is the same. It doesn't include equivalents to Edit.app or Workspace.app (the NeXT file manager), because it is, after all, a window manager & not a desktop environment. WindowMaker is one bit of the NeXT look and feel done really well.

Re:A Couple More Questions

[_Tal]

The look and feel of the windows is similar. Like if you start up an xterm with the NeXT-Athena-Widget set installed, you can get a VERY similar feel to the NeXT Terminal app. But it's still X-windows overall, so you'd notice the differences if you used them both for a long time (which I did).

If Gnome was not around, I would be using WindowMaker and the NeXT-Athena-Widgets. But as it stands I prefer many "Gnome-related" things that seem to better integrate with E.

Mirror vs Cache

[Anonymous Coward]

Mirroring is a simple solution, but it will certainly lead to copyright problems when it comes to commercial sites (images & text are often copyrighted...)

Interesting. But what about using a cache software, isn't that a local mirror too?

What's new?

[abischof]

So, what's new in this version? Is there a changelog or changes-summary somewhere?

Alex Bischoff
---

Re:Slow progress

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it still "dead" if it's continually been better than everything else for a long time?

WindowMaker does not use GNUstep

[pohl]

Last time I looked at the WindowMaker source, it didn't use the GNUstep API at all. It's merely aligned with GNUstep in spirit.

I think

[Trith]

GNUstep is an enviroment like KDE & GNOME.

Window Maker, it's official window manager, would be to GNUstep like kwm is to KDE.....

Now, what I want to know is... since WindowMaker installs part of GNUstep by default... does Windowmaker run on top of GNUstep which runs on top of KDE when you run WindowMaker as KDE's window manager?

Please correct me if this is all wrong.. I"m only guessing
Civ CTP is awesome! Thanks Loki!
Romans 10:9-10

Re:I think

[mAIsE]

yeah but, what is the velocity of a south bound swallow ??!!

Re:I think

[niha]

Window Maker is GNUstep's official windowmanager, but it does not install any parts of GNUstep. Instead it uses a toolkit (WINGs), which is seperately developed from GNUstep. It just looks like GNUstep (NeXTstep).

WM only needs X to do its job, although it understands KDE and GNOME hints, so there is no need to install KDE, GNOME or GNUstep to run Window Maker.

Hopefully a nicer look someday?

[scrytch]

GNUstep has some real nice API's. A properties system that's rather like the windows registry. objective-C api's, a language that supposedly allows runtime reflection, making a component architecture a snap (I'm not certain so don't quote me). But wow, does the look of the thing ever annoy me. No side window borders. Hey if it turns you on not having them, great, I want 'em. "bumpy" widgets, an overly-3d look where dropdown menus have this button that looks like you could bang an elbow on if it were real, menus that remind you of those big ka-chunk radio buttons from old radios they stick out so much. LOUDly colored buttons for apps. Yeah they're pretty, can I get a less romper-roomish icon now? And gradients gradients gradients. The 3d look is so in-your-face, I can only describe it as "overchromed".

I know this isn't the central feature of GNUstep, that all the widgets are probably configurable in look, but I sincerely wish the default look would be something not out of the 50's diner school of design. Subtlety counts.

Oh well, at least they aren't using "stone" or "marble" or that godawful "brushed metal" texture for every widget.

Re:Hopefully a nicer look someday?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, my Nextstep machine was, by far, the nicest, most beautiful and productive desktop I ever had. I would change a look alike, and much more a work-alike for any desktop on the market today. You are just not used to the way it looks. I would say its the fact that it is no windows-look -alike thingy which makes you feel uncomfortable looking at it.

Mirror

[otuz]

Here's the german gnustep mirror:

http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/GNUste p/

It's [still] not slashdotted :)

It's been on Linux for years

[Trith]

GNUStep has been out for a long time. It doesn't get the hype that KDE & GNOME do but it's the core that WindowMaker prefers to run on.
Civ CTP is awesome! Thanks Loki!
Romans 10:9-10

gnustep.org has been /. 'd

[NetDudeFL]

500 Server Error

The hard access limit for this user has been reached

great site!

[jafac]

500 Server Error

The hard access limit for this user has been reached

- - -
talk about minimalist design! A visitor to this site as absolutely not confused as to what to do or where to go, it's TOTALLY intuitive man!

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

elegance

[jafac]

I keep hearing this about NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP - that it's the most beautifully designed system folks have ever seen, it's great, stupendous, spectacular, etc.

I've never heard anyone criticize it.

I'd like to hear some criticisim. Anybody out there NOT like NeXTStep?

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."

hmm...

[MenTaLguY]

> yeah but, what is the velocity of a south bound swallow ??!! European or African?
Berlin-- http://www.berlin-consortium.org

Apps for GNUstep?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm...
Are there any apps for GNUstep?
May I write a *real* app with GNUstep now?

Re:Slow progress

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to code and help GNUstep, I think the GNUstep guys will give you a warm welcome. Otherwise shut up and don't flame other's work.

Re:Mirror (here is the real mirror url)

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, this is *not* the Official GNUstep page. The European mirror is at: gnustep.sbuilders.com This mirror is up and working now.