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Oracle and Red Hat E-Commerce Partnership
Anonymous Coward writes "There's a press release out that says Red Hat and Oracle are teaming up to take on e-commerce. They have outlined bold initiatives to add support for IA64, a journaled filesystem and high avaliability. Even more they say it will include Motif, but they still say all additions will fit with the GPL." It's basically Oracle 8i teamed with an "optimized" version of Red Hat. Sounds nice. This joint product could have major impact on the e-commerce software marketplace if it works as promised. Claimed shipping date is mid-December.
you mean Oracle/Sun/AOL and _linux_. I think that tempers things out a bit don't you think?
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but they can't open source Motif. And if this is big news for Red Hat then it's bad news for GTK
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A better question is has anyone managed to Install 8i on Linux? I have a PII 350 with a 2.5 Gig Linux partition and 64 Meg of Ram and yet I can't even get the 8i installer to run (with the Blackdown JDK 1.1.7 - ./runInstaller says "Initializing jre from /usr/local/jre/bin/jre. Please wait..." then nothing...back to the bash$ prompt). Maybe this is good - maybe Oracle or RedHat will contribute to creating a decent jdk/jre for linux so all the fancy tools will run...maybe they will even include one in the distribution/installation. (Do I sound frustrated yet?) BTW, I was able to install 8i Enterprise on the NT partition of the same machine with no problems. I guess my point is I hope this "specialization" improves installation and maintenance hassles
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
What does Motif provide that other window managers and complete enviroments (GNOME etc) don't provide?
Well, Motif is a GUI toolkit, not just a window manager (but includes mwm) or environment (but these days includes CDE).
As for what it provides that GTK or Qt don't: compatibility with the source code of zillions of apps (many for in-house use) originally developed on one of the proprietary unices, and compatibility with the expertise of the zillions of long-time Unix programmers who wrote those apps. And while Motif itself may not be open-source, Lesstif is, and is completely compatible with all the Motif programs I had lying around to try it with (none of which use the more obscure corners of Motif that Lesstif hasn't got to yet).
Back in the earlier GUI toolkit wars (OpenLook vs Motif) I favored OpenLook, but Motif won out and I've used it for years. If I'm developing an app even for Linux I'll use {Mo,Less}tif as first choice because it does the job and I can't be bothered (yet) to learn Qt or GTK.
There's also a hell of a lot more documentation (books, etc.) on the Motif API and Motif style guides, etc, (all applicable of course to Lesstif) than there is for either GTK or Qt.
Qt and GTK have their own advantages, of course, but the "installed base" of {Mo,Less}tif apps and expertise (and adjuncts like GUI builders) is too large for it to be casually dismissed.
And Motif is vital for any enterprise who wants to move their legacy Unix apps to Linux.
-- Alastair
Oracle is easy to justify if you have a bunch of folks on staff who are already trained in Oracle. You've got to remember that people are almost always more expensive than hardware or software.
Earlier this year, my company budgeted for a pair of IBM H70s running under HACMP for an internal, mission-critical Oracle database application. We're getting toward the end of the year, looking to buy but the bean counters want to save some money and go with Microsoft SQL on NT. (Ugh!)
We've just about got them convinced that Oracle under Linux would be a better solution. The primary reason? We've got half a dozen folks here who have been to Oracle school and another two that are actualy Oracle DBAs. Sure, they could learn SQL 7 but why bother? They already know Oralce.
The same goes for MySQL, MSQL, etc. Yeah, they could learn them but they already know Oracle inside and out.
Oracle on Linux is a wonderful thing because we already know Oracle and our Unix support staff (me {blush}) is better equipped to support a mission-critical application under Linux than anyone on staff is equipped to support the same database under NT.
Well, that, and a dual P-II with similar disk space and RAM is a tenth the cost of an IBM RS/6000 box and about half as much as NT on the same hardware.
InitZero
I think it's easier to work with Oracle
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Oracle on Linux, gee what a great idea! Once Larry gets his foot in the door your at his mercy. As for reliability - Wow!! Super !! - Just ask Ebay. How many times have they been down lately?? Things to ponder, if you know what I mean.
Confusion to the Masses
I am dot completely disturbed by iT
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There's no way that's true.
I agree that it's unlikely that this would happen "in a year". I do think that Ellison might use Linux to pressure the UNIX vendors to pay more for supporting their systems. Especially the more marginal ones.
Longer term than a year, I don't think it's unlikely at all that Oracle would drop UNIX platforms in favor of Linux.
I think Ellison would love to be more in control of his own destiny and Linux makes that more possible. With Linux, Oracle can create the servers they want, rather than just aligning their goals with the goals of hardware/OS manufacturers. Again, I point to that Oracle Server with no OS idea that Oracle was pushing last year as evidence.
I agree..
.. cost and performance...
... or at least no investors mind.
.. etc... couldn't be worst if given the chance?
I have had a chance to see both in person, and it is almost scarry the bloodlust that he has for Billyboy.
When I look at the costs of Oracle8i on linux, I about start to laugh. They are difinately after companies that are with a lot of venture capital. I believe that Microsoft or IBM.. Sybase even provide a better 'Real World' solution
Unforutnately , not evereyon works for a Silicon Valley startup with deep pockets....
I see Oracle/Sun solutions now similar to the clamp IBM had in the 80's.
Nobody gets fired for buying Oracle/Sun.
Oh well... comes back down the the old saying... Be carefull what you wish for.
Microsoft / Bill is bad... but who is to say that Oracle/Sun/AOL
$.02
So will the raw filesystem support be included in 2.4.0? This would sure be very useful for Oracle and any other DB for that matter. Also, will Linux finally suport > 1 Gig of RAM on Alpha?
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If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
>>I'm starting to hate Red Hat more than MS. RH makes money purely on other peoples work.
Oh, please! How is this different from all other distributions (with the exception of Debian)?
Besides, isn't this what the GPL allows them to do? Where in the GPL does it say that you can only use the code as long as you don't make money on it?
If you don't like that RedHat and other companies make money on your hard work (are you actually developing anything or are you just the normal non-developing RedHat basher?), don't release it under the GPL. Put it under QPL or NPL or SCPL or whatever. But don't complain about it!!!
Je ne parle pas francais.
>>It is in things like this that we see the true genius of the GPL. This should finally shut up those people who keep critisizing the GPL. Does
anyone really think these companies would release the source coed to these apps if they weren't forced too?
The true genius of GPL is to force other people to use this license?
What happened to choice?
Far being for me to look at a BSD license that says, you can link to my program, and my choice of license won't affect your choice of license. Oh, no. Sure my license is open and anyone can contribute and change and do whatever they want, BUT the moral thing is to force you to use my license when you want to use any of my program's features, even if you don't want to take my program and make it propriatery, just by linking to it.
Yup, the RMS is a moral genius.
Je ne parle pas francais.
speaking of this, i recieved an email from redhat orders thanking me for my recent order. I thought someone was either being nice or playing a joke. Just a couple days ago I recieved Oracle 8i for linux. I never ordered it and I highly doubt anyone else did. Anyone else have this happen? heh. Interesting....
Well Motif is proprietary. Since most other distros won't have Motif, there is no choice but Redhat if you want Oracle. This causes fragmentation in the linux market.
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What about compatibility with the other linux distros that don't (because they can't-not open/free) have Motif/CDE?
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Only tier-1? Oracle have only recently stated they will make Linux a tier-1 OS.
I know :) That's why I said read/write
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But if Oracle is based on Motif (and many people will want Oracle-you know that) people will have no choice but to use Redhat.
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> What happened to choice?
You've got a choice. Don't use GPL'd software
if you don't like the GPL. Got it?
Normal Red Hat Linux will continue not having Motif.
This is just for the oracle edition.
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..would they fit Motif 2.1 into GPL?
Motif should die anyway...
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
...for anything other than playing? I mean, are all of the downloads that Oracle trumpets for real use, or is it from geeks (like me) who downloaded it to play around some?
Although, I am a bit uneasy about motif--mostly cause i dont like it.
Remember this...no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn....(jim morrison)
Can someone 'in the know' identify which jfs will be used? I don't really have time right now to dig through linux-kernel and extract the various business relationships from the participants emails ;) It'd be useful to know ahead of time though.
Go go kernel boys. Fix that buffer problem so I can start using a JFS on those bigass 80gb software RAID devices.
--
rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)
"People will pay big bucks for the luxury of ignorance."
After reading the courts findings of fact, it looks like a lot of companies that have been hurt by microsoft in the past, arn't terribly excited about the idea of waiting for the courts decision, and instead hit them where it hurts. :) By the time they do make a decision, who knows, it may be too little too late!!! Hurrah for *REAL* innovation!
I highly doubt that Motif will be GPL'ed. This is probably just an example of miscommunication.
For example, check out delta.is. It's a pharmaceutical company and uses Oracle database to deliver dynamic web contents from a system that I participated in developing. My current company (oracle.is) have commited in supporting Oracle on Linux, although we still use Sun Enterprises for all the heavy-duty stuff... Jón
E-commerce without e-service is e-suicide
Jeez, I can't believe someone actually said this.
It is in things like this that we see the true genius of the GPL. This should finally shut up those people who keep critisizing the GPL. Does anyone really think these companies would release the source coed to these apps if they weren't forced too?
Some of it is the open-source buzzword (I am begining to think that companies will give away cash if it lets them claim they are buzzword X) but without the GPL they would release their source under horribly incompatable and unusable liscenses.
Soon we may pass the critical point where it is more economically advantageous to develop using the free code already out there than to keep your code base propietory.
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
I work in 99% oracle environment, and I'm very excited to see what this could bring us. Right now our choice of enterprise-class system for Oracle DBs are Sun Enterprise servers. Expensive, but real workhorses. If RedHat can make "optimized for Oracle" Linux system, I would have to give Linux x86 box a serious look as a cheaper alternative to the Sun boxes, without loosing too much performance.
Good news!
Jon
I downloaded it to access the client libraries to compile DBD::Oracle. I suspect most people download it for that reason. However having said that I am going to use the server on Linux for real development "real soon now".
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Oracle 8i with an optimized version of RedHat? I think this is great for the acceptance of linux in the server market. But I doubt it's usefulness for linux in general.
E-commerce is booming. There's no doubt about that. But most companies entering the arena at this point don't need Oracle 8i. They don't serve 10000+ transactions a day, and most of them never will.
It's nice to see large companies giving attention to other large companies. It's great to see that development is going on. But I'm afraid that this is only serving a few companies, while leaving the smaller parties out in the cold.
Linux is being commercialized. The people who started all this are being left in the cold. The ones that benefit today are not from the open source movement. How many of them have ever been close to a supercomputer? All these developments don't encourage free software. They encourage greed.
Feel free to moderate this down. I just wanted this out.
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the pun is mightier than the sword
VERITAS has agreements with both Red Hat and Oricle to provide storage backup. Storage backup will be necessary for any ecommerce operation ('cuz computers do go down). If it wasn't VERITAS, it would have to be Legato. Someone has to make the choice.
Mike Eckardt
meckardt@yahoo.nospam.com
http://www.geocities.com/meckardt
Oracle does *not* require Motif.
Besides, any other distributor can do the same - bundle their distribution with Oracle and some Motif.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Mr. Ellison has always wanted to hurt Mr. Gates and Microsoft in anyway possible. From the initial NC fiasco to Raw Iron, to this. Remember, Larry wants desktops to go away, that everyone would have a browser served by application providers running Oracle. For all the linux users who don't like Billy, wait to you get a load of Larry....
- Motif isn't part of the kernel, and thus doesn't "have" to be GPLed.
- Perhaps RHAT has been talking with the Open Group, and may have permission to release a GPLed release of Real Motif.
- Perhaps the press release is somehow wrong.
There's really no compelling answer here...That is not consistent with the the sorts of things RHAT has been releasing, though.
Also a bit "out there" as theories go...
Journalists never make mistakes, though, right?
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Why the comment from Veritas? I assume they're implying that Veritas will be used as part of the deal, although it wasn't explicitly mentioned. Whatever the pros and cons of Veritas (I haven't used it enough to say one way or the other), it will certainly help corporate acceptance of Linux. Veritas has strong brand recognition in the corporate arena.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Just a speculation:
Oracle's goal seems to be to drag people from other unices to Linux.
So what do we need? Compatibility with those unices.
Many other unices are using Motif/CDE as primary UIs...
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If there was a passage in the GPL requiring money from companies using the code, how many companies would continue using it? For many companies, it would be just a reason to stick with Windoze. Others would consider the real alternatives to Linux, such as *BSD.
Lastly, please don't call Red Hat proprietary software. All projects created at Red Hat are under the GPL. Red Hat contributions to preexisting projects are generally open-sourced (under the same license as the original package - we can't GPL a patch to XFree86).
Yes, Red Hat does cooperate with companies making proprietary software (Oracle etc). We'd of course prefer to see GPLed versions of Oracle etc, but we're realistic enough to see that's not going to happen anytime soon, and don't you agree it's better to have a proprietary solution than no solution at all?
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yes but I thought the other Oracle unix ports use Motif
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Oracle has "teamed up" with other operating system vendors to do this in the past. For example, SGI has a partnership(s) with Oracle ( example ) to promote Oracle on IRIX.
All this allows Oracle to sell more licenses, which is what they want.
The win for Linux users is that Oracle seems (remember - this is a press release) to be pushing for more enterprise features in Linux.
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
It's: "Su camión está en mi baño...", maybe you can cut&paste this :).