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On Using X w/o the Rodent
Jacobian asks "I'm really sick of my hands acking from typing and using my mouse all day. I would like recommendations on a cool ergonomic keyboard, and a way that I can realistically say goodbye to my mouse once and for all in X. Every WM that I've used extensively has been very unfriendly if you don't use a mouse. Some (fvwm) you can avoid using the mouse most of the time, but eventually there is some focusing problems that make you reach for the rodent once again. Is there a WM in which I would never have to use my mouse?" I've never thought about it before, but having a keyboard friendly WM couldn't hurt. How do the different WMs rate on the various functions that can be accessed from both the mouse and the keyboard? (More)
Which actions cause the most long-term damage to your wrists: Repetitive keyboard use? Or repetitive mouse use? Would a keyboard friendly WM really help those suffering from wrist pain?
On a more personal note, I've found this submission to be rather ironic considering that for the past week, I've had to wear a splint on my wrist, due to an old injury (and not carpal tunnel, thank god!) commited in my reckless youth. So it's interesting that this one came along when it did.
Not to start a GNOME/KDE flamewar, but KDE is quite reasonable for most things without using a mouse. Alt-F2 can execute an arbitrary command, such as bring up an xterm (or kterminal) and Alt-Tab semantics work similarly to M$ Windows. You may have a little trouble negotiating with Netscape, however. Unfortunately, I think that no window manager can make all applications mouse-independent.
Peace and love, y'all
I use Afterstep 1.0 still because I have all the common window functions programmed onto function keys. F1=maximize, F2=fg, alt-F2=bg, F3=move, alt-F3=resize, F4=iconize, alt-F4=close, F5=refresh, alt-F5=restart, F6 and on launch applications (eg: F6 launch xterm, F7 launch xterm on server, ... F12 launch netscape).
Between these and the existing keybindings I can do almost everything without the mouse.. except for one thing: Netscape.
There is no way to traverse the links in netscape without a mouse. Or not that I know of anyway.
You could probably program the above keybindings on any modern WM, I just can't be bothered to redo it, since what I have already works.
This is just too weird.
t ml
I suffered a strain of an old hand injury on Thanksgiving, and, like the author, I too did the splint thing.
I was researching around, and found that KDE has several predefined shortcuts, and even allows the user to bind the Windows© keys to certain things. Here is the link:
http://www.kde.org/documentation/faq/kdefaq-7.h
This helped me enough to get started, but, it made me seriously thnk about the way X ignores the kb, which, with its console roots, is quite ironic.
Good luck to you.
CTRL - ALT - Backspace
That takes care of that.
_.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._
ASCII art?? I thought it was a REGULAR expression
I know with gnome + enlightenment, you can alt+tab between windows (or any other key combination you choose). However I don't know about things like selecting menu items.
--Not quite on topic, but related...well it's on topic since it's leading to discomfort and wrist strain in X:
One thing I've noticed with the mouse in X is that for some mice, the multiplier is just too small. No, I don't mean acceleration. I mean the factor where it takes mouse movement * some factor to calculate each more. See, I have a Logitech Ps/2 firstmouse+, and the base speed is very slow (because to improve resolution it transmits physical movements as smaller steps).
In Windows, with Mouseware, I have these options:
- Speed (a slider bar sets this)
- Acceleration (slow, medium fast) (controls speed + threshold, or threshold is fixed perhaps)
However when I boot into LINUX, in gnome I have these options:
- Acceleration
- Threshold.
See there is no way to set the base speed in gnome. I end up kludging it by setting acceration to max and threshold as low as the slider allows.
This mouse movement problem is an X issue, not gnome. There is no way to specify a mouse movement multiplier independant of acceleration and threshold (I dug up the gnome control-center source to see the calls being made and looked those up).
So if you look at it this way, there should be three parameters that affect mouse movement:
accel
threshold
base multiplier (in X is always 1)
and movement would go like this:
movement threshold:
accel * (base multiplier * movement)
However in X it's always, base multiplier = 1 always.
I hope I'm not the only person in the world bothered by this.
XFree lets you hit ctrl-shift-numlock, after which the numeric keypad will move your mouse pointer. You can use + to click, ins to drag...
Just an interesting tidbit of info. :-)
I learned how to use the mouse with my right foot. It was rather frustrating, and its a bit difficult right-clicking, but the effort has paid off. I no longer need to move my hands off the keyboard when using any window manager.
its always funny till someone gets hurt, then its absolutely hilarious
I was really excited when I found this feature. IMO, there are a few improvements that could be made, though (or maybe I just don't know how to do what I want):
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Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux
Checking out the keyboard-configuration program under WindowMaker, here are the things you can do with the keyboard:
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As you can see, there's quite a lot of keyboard control built-in. Try it out!
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The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
- twm is hopeless, dumped it long ago.
- fvwm2 is quite good to use without a mouse. The reason: you can make it switch to a specific window with on key stroke based on the WM_TITLE and WM_CLASS of that window.
- WindowMaker can largely be operated with the keyboard, but to switch to a specific window, you have to get the window menu (usually F11) and then select the window based on the first letter of the window title (using arrow keys is far too slow).
- I am currently trying E, and having to use ALT-TAB is annoying.
What I really miss most in all window manager (that I tried) - except fvwm2 - is selecting specific windows with one keystroke (or an ALT-whatever combination).I am currently pondering whether it would be worth the effort adding this feature to E - but E 0.16 still has serious memory leaks, so I don't know whether I won't have to switch again anyway.
This is seriously troubling me and if there were a cool looking (theme-aware) WM that can be easily used with the keyboard only, I would immediately switch.
Chilli
-=- Just a random lambda hacker
One more thing.... beware of wrist splints! They give you short term relief by taking the load off the muscles that are bothering you, but they are long term doom.
The danger is that your muscles will atrophy in the splint. Then when you remove it you will re-injure almost immediately--you will probably think you're just not recovered yet, but in fact it is the weakening of your own muscles because of the splint that is causing your trouble!
You have to learn to type properly using all of the muscles in your shoulders arms, forarms, wrists, and fingers, balancing the load so that nothing is overworked. You cannot solve the problem with gimmicks like splints--you actually have to solve the problem with the way you type, and with how much you type.
Instead of using a wrist splint type without one. Type as much as you can WITHOUT symptoms, taking frequent breaks. Try to find out how much you can do before you experience symptons and do just under that much typing. Make sure you keep typing every day--don't lose your endurance. On the other hand, it's a mistake to do exercises to "strengthen" your hand--typing all day long is enough exercise.
If you're having trouble you really should see a doctor who knows something about typing injuries. Many doctors will tell you to use splints--these are the ones who know nothing about typing injuries, go and see someone else--ask to see a specialist.
kde is a very good choice if you're trying to eliminate the mouse. There's keyboard access to just about everything in all the apps, and the wm pretty much allows everything from keystrokes as well.
But gnome will as well, as will most of the WM's. It's just that the wm's don't come configured that way usually. Learn a bit about xmodmap, spend some time configuring the tools you use, set up your default session the way you want, and you can pretty much forget about the mouse in X.
PS. The real key to all this is the whole 'alt key opens the menu' idea. Does anyone know who first did that in a bitmap display? Is it possible that it's actually an MS "innovation"?? (ISTR one of the early DOS char-mode GUIs did this, Geo-something???)
It seems every X11 window managers' design heavily incorporates the mouse as a necessary tool for window management. I even get this impression from reading snippets of POSIX specs. Here's a (very botched) paraphrase, or at least, the impression I got when learning about POSIX window manager recommendations:
"The window manager should not intercept any key bindings... they should all be passed to the application and the mouse should be used for windowing."
Anyway, I have, since I first booted linux and fired up X, always thought this was STUPID. The one thing that I see Windows having over Mac OS or linux window managers was the common, global key-mapping that comes from a tidbit of smart thinking at one point in the design (or stealing somebody elses' idea) and then the subsequent forcing of all the applications that run within your operating environment to adopt "similar" keybindings and look-and-feels.
I took key bindings for granted in Windows. Say, in the middle of anything else, I suddenly had the urge for some Slashdot in a maximized explorer window.
Ctrl-Esc R iexplore [enter] [F4] www.slashdot.org [enter] Alt-[SPACE] x Done. Or maybe size it a bit and move it some. Alt-[SPACE] S (arrow keys) [Enter]. And the cordless mouse is still stuck somewhere in the couch cushions with dead batteries.
Before I figured out that there were window managers that supported something other than focus-follows-mouse, I almost developed tennis elbow, slapping that rat around to keep my focus where i wanted it, and the windows raised where I wanted them. very frustrating.
I moved to BlackBox, because it was nice and speedy. But I still had no pop-up root menu on the keyboard. (I kept telling myself I'd learn C++ and contribute a patch)
later I moved to Windowmaker, and found out why people swear by that. Its neat, theme-able, and nicely configurable. But something about it still irked me. Maybe I preferred the simplicity of BB.
three days ago, i slapped Sawmill on my machine and I think I've found a new love. It's all configurable in the same way emacs and scwm are, very modular, and it looks all pretty, very theme-able too. Not too bad in terms of speed, either. It's not blackbox (I loved BB's responsiveness) but it works well, and you can BIND stuff. With a wussy GUI configuration editor, even! If you want. wow.
So now i have a nice pretty desktop, that plays nice with gnome (even though I don't use gnome much), yet is not quite as hungry as Enlightenment or KDE, and supports lispy customizations (I don't know it well enough to code yet, but i can see the ability of the program to expand). I've got alt-space mapped to the window controls, ctrl-esc mapped to a popup app list, and f12 mapped to the root menu. So now i can, once again, sit on the couch across the room with the cordless 'board and have nearly-full control over my work environment. All I have to do is figure out how to configure it to be able to size the windows with the keys. That and implement selection, copy, and paste using shift and arrow keys. :-P
Maybe the whole system is flawed and maybe Berlin will work more to my liking. Man, i wish i already knew how to code. Then i'd just go FIX all this stuff, instead of bitching about it, eh? ;) (Helping berlin or any other OSS project to completion would be hella cool too.)
Good luck, jacobian, in your search for the "right" configuration.
You can't completely get rid of the mouse in X, no matter how hard you try. You can use keys for most functions, but some things will always bite you and force you to use the mouse.
Therefore, I wouldn't focus of getting rid of the mouse, but replacing it with something else. Some people have mentioned using the keypad; this works but I wouldn't recommend it (a keyboard isn't anywhere near as responsive, nor can it be; it wasn't designed to control a mouse pointer).
I would personally recommend a trackball. They use less disk space and the motion seems more natural to me. I use a Kensington Turbo Mouse (that's "Expert Mouse" to those of you in the PC world), and it works great in MacOS and LinuxPPC both (though I have yet to figure out how to make the fourth button do anything on the Linux side; I'd like to map it to a double-click if that's at all possible).
Touchpads also work. Tracksticks work well once you get used to them, but good luck finding one on anything that isn't a laptop. Then there's that funky brainwave headband (I don't know if it supports Linux yet though).
If all else fails, you could go totally wacko, plug a MIDI keyboard into your machine, and write a driver to control the mouse pointer by playing it. It'd be almost impossible to use, but you've got to admit that once you had it working it'd be seriously cool. Of course, it'd be hard enough to use that it defeats the whole point of the mouse in the first place. But who's counting?
As for ergonomic keyboards, try some out before you take the plunge. Like trackballs, you either love them or you despise them. Best not to get stuck with a keyboard you like even less than your current one.
Now, I'll praise Linux as much as any John Q. Torvalds (I wouldn't trust my websites on an NT machine any day), but I also use a Windows 98 machine at work and have one machine installed with it at home. Ironically, one of the large reasons I use Windows 98 is because of it's kerboard-friendly design. The keyboard shortcuts are almost universal in every application.
There, I said it; I use MS-Windows. Does that make me a bad person? Perhaps. Does that make my opinions wrong? Of course not. Am I entitled to my opinions? Yes, of course. Next time someone feels like using a reply like "You're a dork", take a step back and listen to these words. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It is not our job to judge whether those opinions are valid or not. When it comes to operating systems, it is up to you to make your own decision. Or better yet, don't make a decision. Accept each OS for it's own merits and strengths.
Don't want to pay Lars? Sue him!
Fvwm2 can come damn close to being totally mouse-less. I have all of my favorite apps hooked to CTL-ALT hotkeys. I find it much easier on the wrists than straining for F. It also supports assigning hotkeys to moving the mouse cursor around (Man, I love it. Is there anything this WM won't do? :)
The only problem is that clicking the mouse buttons can't be done with the keyboard: most X programs ignore such "synthetic" mouse events. I have also set up CTL-tabbing to be pretty close to the M$ style (which is unfortunately the best way of switching between windows I have used). And to top it all off, FVWM2 is far easier on the system resources than KDE, WindowMaker and the perpetual-alpha Enlightenment.
Please excuse any incoherence, see time stamp.
I don't find that it's easier to move around on a normal surface than a regular mouse, but it is really nice to be able to use it without problems on non-standard surfaces, like my leg or the arm of my recliner, especially when I'm using it with my laptop.
I've gotta give Microsoft props for providing a great environment for those of us who use the web a lot for both work and play. To wit:
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
it's a mistake to do exercises to "strengthen" your hand--typing all day long is enough exercise
This is as wrong as the idea that doing lots of jogging will build up strong legs (BTW, if you want strong legs, do squats or leg press). Typing is what got you into this mess, it won't get you out.
If you want to strengthen some part of your body, you need brief, intense, and infrequent exercise. Constant light (like typing or jogging) use tells your body to conserve energy by paring down to bare essentials. That's why many geeks have scrawny wrists and finger problems and most long-time joggers have scrawny legs and knee problems.
To strengthen the fingers I strongly recommend this exercise: lay a sheet of newspaper (just one, as you get stronger you'll want to stack up two or three pages) flat on a table in front of you, grab it with the fingertips of one hand and crumple it into a ball without using your other hand or squashing it against anything (including the table). Repeat with fresh sheets until you try and fail to finish crumpling the last sheet. If you feel pain in your joints, stop and try again tomorrow. Do this every day for a week or two, then every second day or so indefinitely.
Another good exercise is wetting a towel and wringing it dry over and over, or squeezing a soft foam ball. Remember, exhaust as rapidly as possible then rest as long as it takes to recover.
Oddly, strength increases spill over between near muscle groups, so if you work out your arms you'll help strengthen your fingers too (you don't have to get fancy, just grabbing a sack of potatos and curling and pressing it overhead ten or twenty times with each arm will make a huge difference if you aren't getting much exercise). And of course, if you work out your back and legs you'll get stronger all over; deadlifts in particular can transform your entire body, and have a dramatic effect on your grip.
If at all possible, avoid all typing until your fingers are strong and healthy again: remember, it is like jogging after you've had problems with your knees. Switch to the hunt-and-peck method if you must use computers, and do odd things like hitting the keys with your thumbs if your fingers get at all tired or sore. Rest frequently.
The basic principle of strength increase is anabolic stress (which should be intense for maximum positive effect and brief for minimum negative effect) followed by adequate rest. Your body heals, grows, and strengthens only when you rest. If you overload your body when it should be resting, you cause cumulative damage, not strength gain. This is why no sustained strength training program should be done more than once every second day.
What bugs me is when you have to use the keyboard to do basic window management things like ``send this window to the bottom of the stack.''
The thing that slows people down is not using the mouse, but switching between the keyboard and the mouse. If I have to hold down control-alt-shift-cokebottle while clicking, that's the worst of both worlds.
Personally, I like to use the keyboard only for text: entering, editing, and navigating through it. I like to use the mouse (and only the mouse, not some heinous keyboard/mouse combo) to do everything else, like moving things around and drawing pictures.
(Gimp's menus get more irritating by the day. You just can't use that program effectively without learning keyboard shortcuts, and that's really a shame.)
Don't believe that ``mouse == wrist damage.'' I messed up my wrists while hardly ever using a mouse, and things have gotten better since I started using the mouse more.
I've finally collected together various things I've written here on my wrist problems and put them on their own page, in case anyone's interested.