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On Using X w/o the Rodent
Jacobian asks "I'm really sick of my hands acking from typing and using my mouse all day. I would like recommendations on a cool ergonomic keyboard, and a way that I can realistically say goodbye to my mouse once and for all in X. Every WM that I've used extensively has been very unfriendly if you don't use a mouse. Some (fvwm) you can avoid using the mouse most of the time, but eventually there is some focusing problems that make you reach for the rodent once again. Is there a WM in which I would never have to use my mouse?" I've never thought about it before, but having a keyboard friendly WM couldn't hurt. How do the different WMs rate on the various functions that can be accessed from both the mouse and the keyboard? (More)
Which actions cause the most long-term damage to your wrists: Repetitive keyboard use? Or repetitive mouse use? Would a keyboard friendly WM really help those suffering from wrist pain?
On a more personal note, I've found this submission to be rather ironic considering that for the past week, I've had to wear a splint on my wrist, due to an old injury (and not carpal tunnel, thank god!) commited in my reckless youth. So it's interesting that this one came along when it did.
Not to start a GNOME/KDE flamewar, but KDE is quite reasonable for most things without using a mouse. Alt-F2 can execute an arbitrary command, such as bring up an xterm (or kterminal) and Alt-Tab semantics work similarly to M$ Windows. You may have a little trouble negotiating with Netscape, however. Unfortunately, I think that no window manager can make all applications mouse-independent.
Peace and love, y'all
I use Afterstep 1.0 still because I have all the common window functions programmed onto function keys. F1=maximize, F2=fg, alt-F2=bg, F3=move, alt-F3=resize, F4=iconize, alt-F4=close, F5=refresh, alt-F5=restart, F6 and on launch applications (eg: F6 launch xterm, F7 launch xterm on server, ... F12 launch netscape).
Between these and the existing keybindings I can do almost everything without the mouse.. except for one thing: Netscape.
There is no way to traverse the links in netscape without a mouse. Or not that I know of anyway.
You could probably program the above keybindings on any modern WM, I just can't be bothered to redo it, since what I have already works.
WindowMaker allows you to switch virtual screens with ALT+1, ALT+2, ALT+3,...
You can also change focus between windows using ALT+TAB, and the settings allow for automatically raising a window when switching to it with the keyboard.
This is just too weird.
t ml
I suffered a strain of an old hand injury on Thanksgiving, and, like the author, I too did the splint thing.
I was researching around, and found that KDE has several predefined shortcuts, and even allows the user to bind the Windows© keys to certain things. Here is the link:
http://www.kde.org/documentation/faq/kdefaq-7.h
This helped me enough to get started, but, it made me seriously thnk about the way X ignores the kb, which, with its console roots, is quite ironic.
Good luck to you.
CTRL - ALT - Backspace
That takes care of that.
_.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._
ASCII art?? I thought it was a REGULAR expression
I know with gnome + enlightenment, you can alt+tab between windows (or any other key combination you choose). However I don't know about things like selecting menu items.
--Not quite on topic, but related...well it's on topic since it's leading to discomfort and wrist strain in X:
One thing I've noticed with the mouse in X is that for some mice, the multiplier is just too small. No, I don't mean acceleration. I mean the factor where it takes mouse movement * some factor to calculate each more. See, I have a Logitech Ps/2 firstmouse+, and the base speed is very slow (because to improve resolution it transmits physical movements as smaller steps).
In Windows, with Mouseware, I have these options:
- Speed (a slider bar sets this)
- Acceleration (slow, medium fast) (controls speed + threshold, or threshold is fixed perhaps)
However when I boot into LINUX, in gnome I have these options:
- Acceleration
- Threshold.
See there is no way to set the base speed in gnome. I end up kludging it by setting acceration to max and threshold as low as the slider allows.
This mouse movement problem is an X issue, not gnome. There is no way to specify a mouse movement multiplier independant of acceleration and threshold (I dug up the gnome control-center source to see the calls being made and looked those up).
So if you look at it this way, there should be three parameters that affect mouse movement:
accel
threshold
base multiplier (in X is always 1)
and movement would go like this:
movement threshold:
accel * (base multiplier * movement)
However in X it's always, base multiplier = 1 always.
I hope I'm not the only person in the world bothered by this.
XFree lets you hit ctrl-shift-numlock, after which the numeric keypad will move your mouse pointer. You can use + to click, ins to drag...
Just an interesting tidbit of info. :-)
...and go to Linux without X.
You still have Lynx, and pine, and I find I get a whole lot more done without actually playing w/ windows or settings, or Q3A, or pr0n.
I mean, sure you can argue "What's the point?", but it is efficient enough for most work. Just change run-levels when you actually have to scratch your itch, and otherwise, you're good to go.
--sugarman--
If you are experiencing pain from typing and mousing an ergonomic keyboard won't help. Not by itself. You are over-using or at least mis-using your muscles and you need to slow down.
A better solution is to install break software like "xwrits" to remind you to take frequent breaks. Say every 10-15 minutes. You should get up out of your chair during these breaks since a lot of problems are actually caused by bad posture and sitting too long.
Ergonomic keyboards might be part of a solution if they help you use your muscles properly--but they cannot be the ONLY thing you do, nor can they be a substitute for taking regular breaks, fixing your posture, etc.
Also, a keyboard that works well for you might not work for someone else at all. Personally I tried lots of keyboards and wound up using a really ancient non-ergonomic keyboard because it had the best keys (they press with little effort but you can feel a bit of a click when they get far enough, so you can use minimal force).
should read like this (that section near end)
movement less than threshold:
1 * (base multiplier * movement)
movement greater than or equal to threshold:
accel * (base multiplier * movement)
I learned how to use the mouse with my right foot. It was rather frustrating, and its a bit difficult right-clicking, but the effort has paid off. I no longer need to move my hands off the keyboard when using any window manager.
its always funny till someone gets hurt, then its absolutely hilarious
I was really excited when I found this feature. IMO, there are a few improvements that could be made, though (or maybe I just don't know how to do what I want):
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The keyboard is actually not that great; I like the tilting design, but actually wish it would tilt more, say, to almost ninety degrees! Also, these stupid bastards put in two MS 'Start' keys, one of which is directly to the left of F1, so you always hit F1 when you want F2, etc. But I haven't seen anything better that's actually on the market as opposed to being in development. If anyone knows of similar but better products, please let me know.
The mouse I really like. It's three button with the buttons a little rearranged, but I got used to it really quickly. I'm sure the buttons can be reassigned in X anyway. If an ordinary mouse has left, middle, right buttons labeled 1 3 2, then the Goldtouch is 3 1 2. It's very comfortable.
kemokid
press shift-alt-numlock and you've got the keypad to use as a mouse.
arrow keys move. pressing two keys simultaneously speeds the movement up (otherwise it's painfully slow).
5 clicks. / changes it to left click, * to middle click, and - to right click (i think). + double clicks in whatever click mode happens to be engaged.
it's not the easiest thing to use, but useful for when your mouse just won't work (whether because of your wrists, or cat chewed cable).
Checking out the keyboard-configuration program under WindowMaker, here are the things you can do with the keyboard:
.
.
.
.
.
.
As you can see, there's quite a lot of keyboard control built-in. Try it out!
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The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
As far as window managers go, when I last used fvwm2 a while ago, I was able to bind keystrokes to do actual mouse movements. This might help with those focusing problems you mention -- while I certainly wouldn't want to use a keyboard-controlled pointer for a lot, simple things like switching focus shouldn't be too bad.
Unfortunately, you'll probably never be able to entirely say goodbye to the mouse. But, with a decent keyboard and pointer combo, you can make it a bit less painful. My hands started hurting a lot less when I switched to the Adesso.
- twm is hopeless, dumped it long ago.
- fvwm2 is quite good to use without a mouse. The reason: you can make it switch to a specific window with on key stroke based on the WM_TITLE and WM_CLASS of that window.
- WindowMaker can largely be operated with the keyboard, but to switch to a specific window, you have to get the window menu (usually F11) and then select the window based on the first letter of the window title (using arrow keys is far too slow).
- I am currently trying E, and having to use ALT-TAB is annoying.
What I really miss most in all window manager (that I tried) - except fvwm2 - is selecting specific windows with one keystroke (or an ALT-whatever combination).I am currently pondering whether it would be worth the effort adding this feature to E - but E 0.16 still has serious memory leaks, so I don't know whether I won't have to switch again anyway.
This is seriously troubling me and if there were a cool looking (theme-aware) WM that can be easily used with the keyboard only, I would immediately switch.
Chilli
-=- Just a random lambda hacker
Actually, it might be easier than you think.
If you use the XInput extensions to XFree86, you can probably set up both the keyboard-touchpad and the mouse as core pointers. I've got a Wacom art tablet, and it works simultaneously with my Logitech Marble Mouse (if I use both hands, but that's another story).
Check out http://www.delix.de/Linux/Support/Info/wacom.html ; I found it when I first started working with the tablet & X. It'll take a bit of hacking to get it to work right with two mice, but I'm sure it can be done. The man page for XInput (if you can find it; it may be a part of XFree86(1)) will undoubtedly also help.
One more thing.... beware of wrist splints! They give you short term relief by taking the load off the muscles that are bothering you, but they are long term doom.
The danger is that your muscles will atrophy in the splint. Then when you remove it you will re-injure almost immediately--you will probably think you're just not recovered yet, but in fact it is the weakening of your own muscles because of the splint that is causing your trouble!
You have to learn to type properly using all of the muscles in your shoulders arms, forarms, wrists, and fingers, balancing the load so that nothing is overworked. You cannot solve the problem with gimmicks like splints--you actually have to solve the problem with the way you type, and with how much you type.
Instead of using a wrist splint type without one. Type as much as you can WITHOUT symptoms, taking frequent breaks. Try to find out how much you can do before you experience symptons and do just under that much typing. Make sure you keep typing every day--don't lose your endurance. On the other hand, it's a mistake to do exercises to "strengthen" your hand--typing all day long is enough exercise.
If you're having trouble you really should see a doctor who knows something about typing injuries. Many doctors will tell you to use splints--these are the ones who know nothing about typing injuries, go and see someone else--ask to see a specialist.
kde is a very good choice if you're trying to eliminate the mouse. There's keyboard access to just about everything in all the apps, and the wm pretty much allows everything from keystrokes as well.
But gnome will as well, as will most of the WM's. It's just that the wm's don't come configured that way usually. Learn a bit about xmodmap, spend some time configuring the tools you use, set up your default session the way you want, and you can pretty much forget about the mouse in X.
PS. The real key to all this is the whole 'alt key opens the menu' idea. Does anyone know who first did that in a bitmap display? Is it possible that it's actually an MS "innovation"?? (ISTR one of the early DOS char-mode GUIs did this, Geo-something???)
Are there any projects out there that use eye control, rather than mouse? Do we all remember that special about Stephen Hawking on PBS a while back? He uses a system that allows him to use his eyes to look at certain spots on the screen. Through a hierarchical type of software system, he can look at a certain category of words, which will lead him to a list of sub-categories, on and on, until he reaches the word he wants to "say." He stairs or blinks at it (I forget which) and it gets spoken (or written, if he's writing a paper or something). The way his machine "sees" his eye movement, IIRC, is by two sensors attached on the sides of his monitor. I've read of other physically impaired people using similar systems.
:)I imagine this would cause a great deal of eye strain though...
Couldn't X be the same way? If the position where your eye was looking was interpreted as the mouse cursor, and blinks==clicks and double blinks==double clicks, you could do everything you do with a mouse (except the little scrolly-wheel thingy-something I've grown to require.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
The '+' key double-clicks. I don't think the Enter key is used at all (perhaps making it the accelerator instead of '5' would be a good idea).
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I just switched to the new MS Explorer mouse (the one without mechanical parts). I'm not sure if it will help other people, but for some reason I don't get a sore right wrist as much or as often. I'm not claiming that it's Bill's new toy, but maybe the shape of it or the smoothness helps. I gurantee there will be some propaganda at microsoft.com/mouse that says its super ergonomic.
My biggest problem was the edge of the table. I'd rest my wrist on it and it was cause circulation and nerve damage.
;-)
I switched to a keyboard and mousepad that kept me from doing that and the pain and numbness has been gone for about three years and counting.
Might work for you -- not that you won't have enough suggestions by time this is all over.
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake -- but you could be if you got off your ass.
idea
OK, so I learn something new every day... it can be used as an accelerator (thanks to the poster in a later thread for pointing this out). Apparently hitting any key while the pointer is in motion will speed up the motion. Shift looks like a pretty good choice for this to me.
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However, a common lament is that netscape doesn't allow you to tab. This is very true and very annoying. But for those who don't keep track of Mozilla's development, Mozilla does allow you to tab through the links, making keyboard naviagation much easier.
Just another AC who will probably not be moderated so no one will see this.
Another option is to get a Dvorak keyboard and see if that works better for you. A Dvorak keyboard is supposed to be much more efficient than the standard QWERTY keyboard. What I mean is that the space your fingers have to move to type most words is much less, reducing the strain on your hands. It's also supposed to be faster. Downside is learning a new layout. Here is an URL with some info on the Dvorak layout.
As for not using a mouse that gets tricky in a GUI environment. I've never tried it, and it is pricey, but footmouse.com has a foot operated mouse. If your goal is to reduce wear and tear on your hands, maybe it is worth looking into.
You could also check out the portion of the typing injury FAQ that deals with alternative input devices. Perhaps you could substitute something for the mouse or keyboard that is more to your liking.
Hope this was helpful.
It seems every X11 window managers' design heavily incorporates the mouse as a necessary tool for window management. I even get this impression from reading snippets of POSIX specs. Here's a (very botched) paraphrase, or at least, the impression I got when learning about POSIX window manager recommendations:
"The window manager should not intercept any key bindings... they should all be passed to the application and the mouse should be used for windowing."
Anyway, I have, since I first booted linux and fired up X, always thought this was STUPID. The one thing that I see Windows having over Mac OS or linux window managers was the common, global key-mapping that comes from a tidbit of smart thinking at one point in the design (or stealing somebody elses' idea) and then the subsequent forcing of all the applications that run within your operating environment to adopt "similar" keybindings and look-and-feels.
I took key bindings for granted in Windows. Say, in the middle of anything else, I suddenly had the urge for some Slashdot in a maximized explorer window.
Ctrl-Esc R iexplore [enter] [F4] www.slashdot.org [enter] Alt-[SPACE] x Done. Or maybe size it a bit and move it some. Alt-[SPACE] S (arrow keys) [Enter]. And the cordless mouse is still stuck somewhere in the couch cushions with dead batteries.
Before I figured out that there were window managers that supported something other than focus-follows-mouse, I almost developed tennis elbow, slapping that rat around to keep my focus where i wanted it, and the windows raised where I wanted them. very frustrating.
I moved to BlackBox, because it was nice and speedy. But I still had no pop-up root menu on the keyboard. (I kept telling myself I'd learn C++ and contribute a patch)
later I moved to Windowmaker, and found out why people swear by that. Its neat, theme-able, and nicely configurable. But something about it still irked me. Maybe I preferred the simplicity of BB.
three days ago, i slapped Sawmill on my machine and I think I've found a new love. It's all configurable in the same way emacs and scwm are, very modular, and it looks all pretty, very theme-able too. Not too bad in terms of speed, either. It's not blackbox (I loved BB's responsiveness) but it works well, and you can BIND stuff. With a wussy GUI configuration editor, even! If you want. wow.
So now i have a nice pretty desktop, that plays nice with gnome (even though I don't use gnome much), yet is not quite as hungry as Enlightenment or KDE, and supports lispy customizations (I don't know it well enough to code yet, but i can see the ability of the program to expand). I've got alt-space mapped to the window controls, ctrl-esc mapped to a popup app list, and f12 mapped to the root menu. So now i can, once again, sit on the couch across the room with the cordless 'board and have nearly-full control over my work environment. All I have to do is figure out how to configure it to be able to size the windows with the keys. That and implement selection, copy, and paste using shift and arrow keys. :-P
Maybe the whole system is flawed and maybe Berlin will work more to my liking. Man, i wish i already knew how to code. Then i'd just go FIX all this stuff, instead of bitching about it, eh? ;) (Helping berlin or any other OSS project to completion would be hella cool too.)
Good luck, jacobian, in your search for the "right" configuration.
The IceWM seams to do a very good job of not having to use the mouse. In particular it uses almost all of the MS Windows shortcuts for window manipulation. For some reason people don't seam to like icewm. Could it be because it just to simple? Or could it be becuase it is too much like MS Windows?
You can't completely get rid of the mouse in X, no matter how hard you try. You can use keys for most functions, but some things will always bite you and force you to use the mouse.
Therefore, I wouldn't focus of getting rid of the mouse, but replacing it with something else. Some people have mentioned using the keypad; this works but I wouldn't recommend it (a keyboard isn't anywhere near as responsive, nor can it be; it wasn't designed to control a mouse pointer).
I would personally recommend a trackball. They use less disk space and the motion seems more natural to me. I use a Kensington Turbo Mouse (that's "Expert Mouse" to those of you in the PC world), and it works great in MacOS and LinuxPPC both (though I have yet to figure out how to make the fourth button do anything on the Linux side; I'd like to map it to a double-click if that's at all possible).
Touchpads also work. Tracksticks work well once you get used to them, but good luck finding one on anything that isn't a laptop. Then there's that funky brainwave headband (I don't know if it supports Linux yet though).
If all else fails, you could go totally wacko, plug a MIDI keyboard into your machine, and write a driver to control the mouse pointer by playing it. It'd be almost impossible to use, but you've got to admit that once you had it working it'd be seriously cool. Of course, it'd be hard enough to use that it defeats the whole point of the mouse in the first place. But who's counting?
As for ergonomic keyboards, try some out before you take the plunge. Like trackballs, you either love them or you despise them. Best not to get stuck with a keyboard you like even less than your current one.
Now, I'll praise Linux as much as any John Q. Torvalds (I wouldn't trust my websites on an NT machine any day), but I also use a Windows 98 machine at work and have one machine installed with it at home. Ironically, one of the large reasons I use Windows 98 is because of it's kerboard-friendly design. The keyboard shortcuts are almost universal in every application.
There, I said it; I use MS-Windows. Does that make me a bad person? Perhaps. Does that make my opinions wrong? Of course not. Am I entitled to my opinions? Yes, of course. Next time someone feels like using a reply like "You're a dork", take a step back and listen to these words. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It is not our job to judge whether those opinions are valid or not. When it comes to operating systems, it is up to you to make your own decision. Or better yet, don't make a decision. Accept each OS for it's own merits and strengths.
Don't want to pay Lars? Sue him!
Fvwm2 can come damn close to being totally mouse-less. I have all of my favorite apps hooked to CTL-ALT hotkeys. I find it much easier on the wrists than straining for F. It also supports assigning hotkeys to moving the mouse cursor around (Man, I love it. Is there anything this WM won't do? :)
The only problem is that clicking the mouse buttons can't be done with the keyboard: most X programs ignore such "synthetic" mouse events. I have also set up CTL-tabbing to be pretty close to the M$ style (which is unfortunately the best way of switching between windows I have used). And to top it all off, FVWM2 is far easier on the system resources than KDE, WindowMaker and the perpetual-alpha Enlightenment.
Please excuse any incoherence, see time stamp.
The ION-ETM system adds the IONTM Eye Control Software to the basic software for head control, and allows full control of a computer with your eyes. Two tiny cameras in the headset observe both your eye and the beacon on your monitor, allowing the computer and the IONTM Eye Control Software to determine where you are looking on the screen. As with ION-HTM, the ION-ETM system also senses
intentional blinking, and uses that for clicking and dragging.
I'm using Opera (MS Windows) which you have to pay for (very affordable). It's my understanding that the Opera folks are making an Opera for Linux. Opera doesn't work for everything, and sometimes you have to go back to Netscape. But it's got all sorts of hot keys, and navigating the links is very easy. When you tab the links with Netscape, it's vry hard to see what is "highlighted". That's not the case with Opera. See, http://www.opera.com
it's a mistake to do exercises to "strengthen" your hand--typing all day long is enough exercise
This is as wrong as the idea that doing lots of jogging will build up strong legs (BTW, if you want strong legs, do squats or leg press). Typing is what got you into this mess, it won't get you out.
If you want to strengthen some part of your body, you need brief, intense, and infrequent exercise. Constant light (like typing or jogging) use tells your body to conserve energy by paring down to bare essentials. That's why many geeks have scrawny wrists and finger problems and most long-time joggers have scrawny legs and knee problems.
To strengthen the fingers I strongly recommend this exercise: lay a sheet of newspaper (just one, as you get stronger you'll want to stack up two or three pages) flat on a table in front of you, grab it with the fingertips of one hand and crumple it into a ball without using your other hand or squashing it against anything (including the table). Repeat with fresh sheets until you try and fail to finish crumpling the last sheet. If you feel pain in your joints, stop and try again tomorrow. Do this every day for a week or two, then every second day or so indefinitely.
Another good exercise is wetting a towel and wringing it dry over and over, or squeezing a soft foam ball. Remember, exhaust as rapidly as possible then rest as long as it takes to recover.
Oddly, strength increases spill over between near muscle groups, so if you work out your arms you'll help strengthen your fingers too (you don't have to get fancy, just grabbing a sack of potatos and curling and pressing it overhead ten or twenty times with each arm will make a huge difference if you aren't getting much exercise). And of course, if you work out your back and legs you'll get stronger all over; deadlifts in particular can transform your entire body, and have a dramatic effect on your grip.
If at all possible, avoid all typing until your fingers are strong and healthy again: remember, it is like jogging after you've had problems with your knees. Switch to the hunt-and-peck method if you must use computers, and do odd things like hitting the keys with your thumbs if your fingers get at all tired or sore. Rest frequently.
The basic principle of strength increase is anabolic stress (which should be intense for maximum positive effect and brief for minimum negative effect) followed by adequate rest. Your body heals, grows, and strengthens only when you rest. If you overload your body when it should be resting, you cause cumulative damage, not strength gain. This is why no sustained strength training program should be done more than once every second day.
First and formost: I am not a window-manager/desktop zealot. I use the GNOME panel, "dfm" as my file manager, and Sawmill as my window manager. I use what suits me.
:) Those Three extra worthless keys they put on keyboards have come in handy. Pretty much every CTRL, ALT, and SHIFT combination has been taken by one program or another. Almost nobody touches the Win or WinMenu key. I use both my mouse and my keyboard, so I havn't use this key-binding feature to the fullest, but I only keep the GNOME side of things around because of its prettiness, and the task list. I launch all my programs through keybindings.
e x.html
To be honest, I just switched to Sawmill because my machine is slow, and version 0.17 had the features I desperately wanted.
If you're willing to do a bit of work, Sawmill may be your answer. All of the configuration is done via the lisp scripting languange. That means pretty much anything the window manager is capable of can be assigned to a key-stroke. Thank you Microsoft!
If you are interested in Sawmill, go to http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~john/sw/sawmill/ind
As a warning, Sawmill is under very heavy development. I've never seen so fast a release cycle(I got 0.17 a week before 0.18 came out. To be honest, if 0.18 hadn't come out[with the ability to assign windows arbitrary properties], I would have switched back to Enlightenment). Good luck!
Oh, yeah. To answer the question about ergonomic keyboards, there is a keyboard I've seen that completely imobilizes your wrist. Actually, I sort of put it in an executive's desk. the keyboard itself is parallel to the floor, but there are two large hollows, hemispherical, with keys embedded on the curved surface. To install it in the desk, I took out a portion of the desktop, and dropped the keyboard in. Now the exec's arms and wrists rest more-or-less flat on the surface of his desk, and his fingers to all the moving. I don't know where he got that keyboard, though...
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
I'd like to jump on the wagon of saying how great Sawmill is for keybindings. As well as mouse-bindings (I've set mine up so that right-clicking on ANY of the window borders brings up the wm menu, and middle-clicking on any border moves the window. All annoyances of inacessable title borders are gone.).
As far as devices go, the mouse was a great, revolutionary technology of it's time. All props to Douglas Englebart, however, I think it's time has passed. It seems that industry has said "ooh! people will buy a mouse" and just gotten stuck in a rut. Roller-wheels, third buttons, and pretty colours are NOT a revolution. I hate to leave the home row, and just wish there was an ergonomic setup that would mean I didn't have to (after last weeks article that taught me how to switch CapsLock and Escape keys, I'm one step closer).
The ideas that I've thought of are: a keyboard split in two, and you roll each around (think of a keyboard and mouse getting married and having two kids), a pressure sensitive wrist pad that translated subtle movements in both wrists into mouse movements, or eyball tracking. I believe I played with an eyeball tracker at the Ontario Science Center when I was a kid, so I don't think it's new technology. But I remember it having real trouble initializing -- figuring out where my eyes were. If this is still the problem, how about really distinct coloured contact lenses ala Marilyn Manson. I'd wear 'em if it would mean more time with my precious home row. Or maybe the other way around -- contact lenses with sensors in them that would work similarly to Nintendo's Duck Hunt. You all remember Duck Hunt don't you? (contact lenses might be overkill here, glasses would probably work, but then you'd have to move your whole head. Carpal Tunnel Neck)
As far as surfing around your (multiple) desktop(s) with solely your keyboard, I've found that the following scheme works well:
Ctrl-Alt - - - - Window Manager and X
(focus, shifting desktops, shutting down X)
Alt - - - - Application User Interface
(File, Edit -type menus, menu item shortcuts)
Ctrl - - - - Application
(Ctrl-x sends mail in pine, Ctrl-Left moves forward a whole word in word processors)
Shift - - - - Modifies above commands
(usually reverses the direction)
With Alt-Tab being the exception to the rule here. I'm still not comfortable with it switching window focus because it doesn't fit in the pattern. But Ctrl-Alt-Tab is a lotus position for my fingers. Hmm... perhaps Ctrl-Alt-Space...
And this doesn't really leave any room for desktop commands, ie, how to open the Gnome Panel's menu. Maybe Ctrl-Alt fits, but I'm not convinced.
I think there should be some sort of standard, so that when a user downloads some new window manager, it's defaults shouldn't interfere with his/her customary behaviour. Does a standard already exist? Anybody? I think ultimately, it should all be user customizable, though. (again, mad props to Sawmill).
Okay, perhaps I should start my 1500 word essay due at 8:30am now.
- sjbrown
- works at
Your chair *MUST* have an arm rest. This was the one most important thing that gave me a mouse arm.
Get a smaller keyboard so the distance travelled between the keyboard and the mouse is shorter. I use a MS Natural Elite keyboard.
Try to avoid using the mouse when you don't have to. Use keyboard shortcuts instead of menus.
Be very restrictive by using the correct typing on your keyboard. E.g. always use the right Ctrl key when doing a C-x c in Emacs and not the left one.
And the last one, use the mouse with the left hand. I had to resort to this last year. But haven't had any problems after I corrected my typing, avoided using the mouse too much and got a correct chair.
Not that anyone will read this. *sob*
Have you experienced the horrors of the Johnson Keyboard? The idea is that you never have to leave the home row. Unfortunately, due to a really lame implementation using xmodmap, you type the space with your little finger, which rapidly becomes painful. If it ever gets done right (like with an X patch, or something like that) it might be worth taking a look at.
The best thing would be to have something like the keypad option in X, but, obviously, the keypad is not intuitive - it should be "hjkl", of course!
Regards,
January
been thinking about this too, I use Windows and Linux so I'm using both Explorer.exe and X. Explorer has a decent keyboard interface which I've used when I couldn't get my hands on a serial mouse cuz the system had no PS/2 port. Most WMs I've used with X on the other hand don't have a good keyboard interface. X's mouse interface isn't all too snazzy either, the cursor (in most WMs I've used) had a real odd movement. I think added keybaord functionality would be good not only for those of us with sore wrists from using mice all the time but also very useful for non-PC systems like WebTV and the like. Linux is a powerful and small kernal that could be ported to net appliances but X would have some difficulty because it has problems with keyboard interface which many net appliances are limited to.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Only two letters per key? Ha!
Almost all the PCs in Japan come with a JIS keyboard --- QWERTY keys have two or three symbols, number keys have three or four, and punctuation keys have four. (For example, the minus key has minus [-], equals [=], a pound sign (pounds sterling, not lbs), and the hiragana "ho".) Not to mention the dreaded Henkan/Muhenkan keys on either side of the spacebar, reducing its width down to about an inch and a half. On the bottom row of the keyboard I'm using now, there's no less than eleven keys - Ctrl, Windows key, Alt, Muhenkan, Space, Henkan, Hiragana/Katakana key, Alt, Windows key, Menu key, Ctrl.
Of course, at home I use only standard AT keyboards with the Ctrl and CapsLock in the proper positions.
This is a fundamental flaw, because the designers destroyed the connection between screen motion and motion commands. They should have a follow link and a pop link stack command which are separate from the Cartesian motions. Left should move you in a negative direction along the X axis. Right should move you in a positive direction along the X axis. Up should move you in a negative direction along the Y axis. Down should move you in a positive direction along the Y axis. Anything else is madness because it's completely counterintuitive given the normal notion up up/down/left/right.
What he seems to be commenting on, was the use of a dollar in "MS". And I agree with him (these things are becoming old, and don't help for anything), although I wouldn't say it that way.
(This comment is of course GPLed.)
Of course you'd mention this after I switched to the Happy Hacker Keyboard (w/o NumLock key). =)
Christopher A. Bohn
cb
Oooh! What does this button do!?
Is that Trackman Marble on the ADB? I have been trying to figure out how to get the Trackman Marble onto my ADB PowerMac! Please help!
-- Tom Rathborne
Yes, I've seen big black IBM desktop keyboard with the red trackpoint in the middle. Good idea.
-- Tom Rathborne
There's more to hydration than you realize. Dr. F. Batmanghelidj was at one time held prisoner in Iran. He was about to be executed, but they kept him around because he was usefull for treating other prisoners. A prisoner came up to him with severe abdominal pain from a peptic ulcer. Lacking traditional "medicines", Dr. B. perscribed two glasses of water. The pain disappeared in eight minutes.
From WaterCure.com:
AMAZING SECRETS FOR HEALTH AND WELLNESS
Cure # 1: Water prevents and cures heartburn.
Cure # 2: Water prevents and cures arthritis.
Cure # 3: Water prevents and cures back pain.
Cure # 4: Water prevents and cures angina.
Cure # 5: Water prevents and cures migraines.
Cure #6: Water prevents and cures colitis.
Cure # 7: Water and salt prevents and cure asthma.
Cure # 8: Water prevents and cures high blood pressure.
Cure # 9: Water prevents and cures early-adult-onset diabetes.
Cure # 10: Water lowers blood cholesterol.
Cure # 11: Water Cures Depression, Loss of Libido, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Lupus, Multiple Sclerosis, Muscular Dystrophy.
For explanations of how water can be used to treat all these conditions you'll have to buy one of his books, Your Body's Many Cries For Water, availible from Amazon, Barnes and Noble or from watercure.com. The recommended amount of water is 1/2 your weight in ounces every day. I way 180 pounds, so I should be drinking 90 ounces of water a day.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
Slashdot is currently performing an interview with the technical director of the National Federation for the Blind. They are the folks suing AOL for non-compliance with the ADA. If anybody would know how to use a computer without a mouse, it would be a blind person.
Maybe some of the discussion there is relevent, and maybe some of the blind people in that discussion would like to contribute to this discussion.
--
HOWTO get better dates on slashdot
Nat Lanza pointed out that Adesso make some keyboard with nice pointers, but here's my question:
Does anyone make a keyboard that has the following two characteristics?
1) Built-in trackpoint type erasor pointer, and
2) clicky, mechanical keystrokes?
If so, I would pay well for it. Up to, say, $100, which is high for a "regular" keyboard (even with a biult-in pointer) and way low for most of the *serious* ergonomic ones (As opposed to simple split arangements).
I'll even pay a finders fee ($10 fair?) to the first person who can send me information which leads to the arrest and capture of an appropriate 'board.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
What bugs me is when you have to use the keyboard to do basic window management things like ``send this window to the bottom of the stack.''
The thing that slows people down is not using the mouse, but switching between the keyboard and the mouse. If I have to hold down control-alt-shift-cokebottle while clicking, that's the worst of both worlds.
Personally, I like to use the keyboard only for text: entering, editing, and navigating through it. I like to use the mouse (and only the mouse, not some heinous keyboard/mouse combo) to do everything else, like moving things around and drawing pictures.
(Gimp's menus get more irritating by the day. You just can't use that program effectively without learning keyboard shortcuts, and that's really a shame.)
Don't believe that ``mouse == wrist damage.'' I messed up my wrists while hardly ever using a mouse, and things have gotten better since I started using the mouse more.
I've finally collected together various things I've written here on my wrist problems and put them on their own page, in case anyone's interested.
Well, I'm still looking forward to trying it. Maybe once that build process gets fixed up I'll try again.
I'm not quite sure, but I think I'm impressed. :-)
Enlightenment lets you assign so many shortcuts to so many things that I can effectively work without a mouse most of the day.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Does anyone make a keyboard that has the following two characteristics?
;-)
1) Built-in trackpoint type erasor pointer, and
2) clicky, mechanical keystrokes?
A small company that goes by the name of International Business Machines.
Not seven days ago, I bought an IBM Trackpoint II Keyboard. It includes a built-in eraser pointer between the G, H, and B keys, with two buttons below the space bar (flush with the case). The keyboard itself is that oh-so-sexy IBM clicky feel -- buckling spring.
IBM Part Number 13H6705. "Manufactured for IBM by Maxi Switch", according to the sticker on the bottom.
Cost me $35. Reseller info:
ReEntry - Computers, Peripherals, Electronic Equipment, etc.
Peadbody, MA, USA 01960
Phone: (978)532-3337
Fax: (978)532-3338
Web: http://www.gis.net/~axxxion
Email: axxxion@gis.net
I'll even pay a finders fee ($10 fair?) to the first person who can send me information which leads to the arrest and capture of an appropriate 'board.
No charge.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.