Perl is highly modular but I would hate to work in a team of 10 or more perl developers all writing in their own styles and methods. Shudder.
Its called DISCIPLINE and its not that hard. Someone makes rules for the dev team and then they are followed and then your code is clean and readable. Why should the language force you to be disciplined? Good programmers know to program following some kind of standard.
And why does everyone bring up PHP? PHP is nothing but Perl with all the best parts taken out and everything thrown into the core language. PHP breaks all the rules of good disciplined programming. With Perl you can shoot yourself in the foot but at least the newbies stay away from it enough to keep the damage to a minimum, and it has controls such as 'strict' and Taint mode so you know when you are shooting yourself in the foot. PHP on the other hand gives the newbies a shot-gun and says 'point this at your head'. PHP coders that actually understand the basics of good programming are few and far between. And trust me there is more than one way to do things in PHP as I've been fixing the problems created by the former 'programmer' in my company for the last year.
Standard IANAL disclaimer: I disagree. Its been pointed out here many times that SCO wouldn't actually sell these licsenses to people. And on top of that SCO has yet to sue anyone for copyright infringement rather this whole thing is a contract dispute with IBM. So proving it was a fraudelent claim might not be so difficult.
At any rate its a grey area. It looks like extortion but they probably could get around that charge by saying that they didn't actually take anyone's money. It looks like slander but no one has proved in court that it doesn't infringe. And as was stated postal fraud is also hard to prove. I just hope some no-nonsense judge really slaps them hard for this one.
Heh it looks like they patented bad web coding (if IE use this script if NS use this script) and then took it a step further to ensure that their apps are four times more bloated than they are now.
And I agree such a thing is stupid and would end up being a huge headache for developers and users. Of course that's nothing new coming from Redmond:)
CGI Stands for Common Gateway Interface. It has nothing to do with what language its written in.
'Scripting' and 'Programming' are semantic terms anyway, there is virtually no difference though most people I know define the difference in terms of complexity. I.E. if I use Perl to write an Email client is it programming or scripting?
Its been my experience that the web 'programmers' are the ones that know Dreamweaver, Flash, a bit of Javascript and some PHP and think they rule the world with the cool flashy thing. And web programmers are the ones that are writing web-based applications. What these applications are written in is really of no consequence.
Spare us the Stallman rant please. All computing is built off the work of others and there is plenty of stuff from Linux that comes from BSD or other places.
I use X Windows, it didn't come from GNU. My OS would be a bit incomplete (as a desktop system) without a desktop.
My Window Manager is Blackbox. Stallman didn't write that so I guess i have to give those authors credit as well.
My browser is Mozilla. My OS would be a bit incomplete without a browser as well.
So now by all rights I should call it Mozilla/Blackbox/XFree/MIT(X11)/GNU/Linux
And that doesn't even get started on the countless other applications that are used or have been contributed.
I'll stick with 'Linux' thanks very much. Stallman's accomplishments would probably be better recognized if he wasn't so quick to try to make sure he's credited with them.
First of all I didn't say that all news had a right wing bias, I said they play to people's emotions to get higher ratings. I think that the news media panders to the side that their target audience wants to hear about on any given day.
I also stated that I feel NPR has less of a reason to do that as their existance doesn't depend on ratings and they don't have shareholders hounding them to make more money. Thus they are more likely to be balanced and I don't feel they treat me like I'm stupid.
Now how someone's political leanings have anything to do with their OS choice is beyond me. Slashdot tends to be a haven for young left leaning people that support Open Source. I bet most of them didn't pick Open Source because they lean left, that's a strawman and really it doesn't make any sense. There are plenty of conservative people who use open source and like Fox news just fine.
Personally I use OSS because Microsoft is a pain in the arse when it comes to interpolibility. So sure while a lot of their stuff works just fine for what its intended to do if it doesn't play nice with my OSS stuff then it won't be on my network. That doesn't make me a fanatic it makes me practical.
Stuff like that comes from your local station and not the programs that run nationwide. I'm near Dallas and the local stuff tends to be more conservative. When I say that NPR is more balanced I'm speaking of the nationally syndicated shows.
As for intelligence? No, the use way more emotion. Almost everytime I pass the station they have something like: "grandmother in Iraq who is blind who lost her grandchild" because of a war or some other depressing story.
Sounds like Bob Edwards just made my point for me. The media didn't hype GWB's contributions to Turkey because it wasn't as juicy as Clinton's BJ. The mainstream media didn't feel that ratings would be as high because really I think the average American who doesn't even know where Turkey is much less give a crap about our foriegn policy toward them.
That's my problem with the mainstream media, they report on the stuff people will tune into, rather than the truth. The few people that might actually care about GWB's foriegn policy in the end don't know about these kinds of things.
Besides that Bob Edwards has never gone on the radio and accused Bush of anything, off the air he's certainly entitled to whatever opinion he wants to have.
I'm a Conservative/Moderate and I listen to NPR, I feel that their news is the best and least biased around because they are non-profit, they don't have to worry about keeping one side or the other happy.
The best thing about NPR is that they don't try to hype news to get me to listen. Cable news makes me sick with the way they twist the truth in teasers to get you to tune in to whatever is next by playing with your emotions. NPR treats me like an intellegent person and lets me decide for myself. I don't always agree with them but I never feel like they are trying to get me to either.
Not that reading the article is something we used to do:).
Seriously though I hate it as much as the next person but the ads are only 300k. Not fast on a dial-up but definitely not going to take 'hours' to download.
What cracks me up is their 'patented' content delivery system. Its Flash for crying outloud! there is nothing new or special about it, people have been doing this for site intros forever, I'm surprised someone didn't think of this sooner.
The bad news is that it isn't going to be easy to block. The redirect is embedded in the flash so your proxy or your browser would have to decode that flash natively and then direct you to the correct page. If you block the host or turn the flash off then it simply isn't going to load for you and there will be no way to get to the real page.
The easiest thing is don't visit sites with this stuff on it.
Yes and having used BSD, I prefer the SYSV way of doing things. God forbid that someone would like that better!
Also since when does ps (-?)aux not work? I've used that since I started using linux, SYSV style or not. Also my RedHat boxes, though they still have the SYSV init scripts have an rc.local that I can put commands into.
Uh... Apache, PHP, and MySQL all have native Windows ports. Also there is a little program called Cygwin that's been doing the same thing for quite awhile and Linux and OSS still exist.
In some ways I agree that this tool isn't all that useful. People are going to use whatever distro they want and if they are savy enough to try new distros then like you said they'll install from scratch. However the good news is we aren't being forced to use it. I'm definitely not changing over what works.
Show me a tool that converts portage or rpm data and creates a working Debian equivalent and I'll be impressed.
mod_perl requires you to code properly so yeah I guess that's more work for anyone who doens't do it in the first place. Its also much more flexable and has shown to be more scalable.
I have no problem with ISP's installing PHP for users, its great for them and it can be made relatively safe. I'm a sysadmin and I have it installed for my users, but when I'm doing a serious project I much prefer Perl if I have a choice.
And many ISPs and other sysadmins I'm familiar with run PHPs as CGI rather than as a part of apache for added security, so the speed issue can be a moot point.
Re:With PHP5, why not use Perl?
on
Core PHP Programming
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Perl is a great tool. But it is more of tool to use on files then a tool to create webpages. Using perl to generate html or rather bits of html is like using a fully loaded factory workshop to hammer in a nail. Overkill.
Eh? With Perl you use what you need. Nothing beats CPAN. PEAR? not even close. And when you need something non-standard in PHP (graphics libraries?) You have to compile the whole thing again.
Then there's all kinds of other things that you just can't do in PHP without rolling your own or trusting the latest snippet from php1337haX0rs.com. What do you do if you need to actually parse html? Use templating that a designer can understand? Even easily manipulate text data?
PHP embeds scripting in webpages. Its rarely reusable and it often leads to a mess. Its also the kind of thing we used to flame Microsoft for (scriptable email?). Most other solutions sit outside your webpage (and can often even manipulate your webserver) to generate a page for you.
I think it has a bad name because things like magic quotes, lack of namespaces and a function_name_for_everything() make it feel like it was written with new programmers in mind.
If you need to learn HOW to program you need to start with something other than PHP. A good programmer should be able to learn the syntax of a new language and be able to program in it just as easily as any other language.
*troll* Of course since PHP breaks many commonly accepted practices of good programming by default, HOW to program might be appropriate for it.;-) */troll*
The problem is number 3. If the documentation is so complete why are the user comments needed? There have been plenty of times I've seen things in user comments that should have been in the actual documentation. That doesn't seem very complete to me.
Prices there are for businesses. We aren't actually offering wireless to residential customers until we can provide hotspots and buy some more bandwidth (ahh the joys of working for startups:) ). I think they are going to start residential at $29.95 and it should be ready sometime in Feb.
The dial-up is nation-wide. The wireless is expanding but its just in East Texas at the moment.
Disclaimer: Yes I do work for these people, so buy something and help pay my salary:)
In all seriousness I see this as a good thing. Smaller companies selling dial-up to local areas is usually cheaper and have much better service. Sometimes they even know what they are doing and usually their customers become a bit more savy than they would on AOL or MSN.
Small Business makes up far more of the workforce than corporations do. There are millions of small businesses and only a few hundred publically traded companies. Don't pander to the monoliths, work for people who have real vision, or even start your own business.
Small businesses aren't going to outsource your job, its not cost effective. They normally are going to value your work because you normally are going to have a specific place you fit in. There's always going to be customers are willing to pay a little extra for people to go the extra mile for them.
"With this action AOL controls everything from the OS to the Word Processor to the web sites their customers browse."
Uhhhh.... how is this different from Microsoft controlling all that when you buy a Dell, Gateway et. al.?
Besides they are running XP so I'm not sure where the idea that they control the OS comes from, and last I checked you could browse the entire Internet with the AOL client (just glorified IE).
Finally what's "AOL Office Powered by Sun"? OpenOffice (or StarOffice) rebranded again is my guess. How is that a bad thing?
Slashdot Mirror
Perl is highly modular but I would hate to work in a team of 10 or more perl developers all writing in their own styles and methods. Shudder.
Its called DISCIPLINE and its not that hard. Someone makes rules for the dev team and then they are followed and then your code is clean and readable. Why should the language force you to be disciplined? Good programmers know to program following some kind of standard.
And why does everyone bring up PHP? PHP is nothing but Perl with all the best parts taken out and everything thrown into the core language. PHP breaks all the rules of good disciplined programming. With Perl you can shoot yourself in the foot but at least the newbies stay away from it enough to keep the damage to a minimum, and it has controls such as 'strict' and Taint mode so you know when you are shooting yourself in the foot. PHP on the other hand gives the newbies a shot-gun and says 'point this at your head'. PHP coders that actually understand the basics of good programming are few and far between. And trust me there is more than one way to do things in PHP as I've been fixing the problems created by the former 'programmer' in my company for the last year.
Standard IANAL disclaimer: I disagree. Its been pointed out here many times that SCO wouldn't actually sell these licsenses to people. And on top of that SCO has yet to sue anyone for copyright infringement rather this whole thing is a contract dispute with IBM. So proving it was a fraudelent claim might not be so difficult.
At any rate its a grey area. It looks like extortion but they probably could get around that charge by saying that they didn't actually take anyone's money. It looks like slander but no one has proved in court that it doesn't infringe. And as was stated postal fraud is also hard to prove. I just hope some no-nonsense judge really slaps them hard for this one.
Heh it looks like they patented bad web coding (if IE use this script if NS use this script) and then took it a step further to ensure that their apps are four times more bloated than they are now.
:)
And I agree such a thing is stupid and would end up being a huge headache for developers and users. Of course that's nothing new coming from Redmond
CGI Stands for Common Gateway Interface. It has nothing to do with what language its written in.
'Scripting' and 'Programming' are semantic terms anyway, there is virtually no difference though most people I know define the difference in terms of complexity. I.E. if I use Perl to write an Email client is it programming or scripting?
Its been my experience that the web 'programmers' are the ones that know Dreamweaver, Flash, a bit of Javascript and some PHP and think they rule the world with the cool flashy thing. And web programmers are the ones that are writing web-based applications. What these applications are written in is really of no consequence.
I'll bite the troll
Spare us the Stallman rant please. All computing is built off the work of others and there is plenty of stuff from Linux that comes from BSD or other places.
I use X Windows, it didn't come from GNU. My OS would be a bit incomplete (as a desktop system) without a desktop.
My Window Manager is Blackbox. Stallman didn't write that so I guess i have to give those authors credit as well.
My browser is Mozilla. My OS would be a bit incomplete without a browser as well.
So now by all rights I should call it
Mozilla/Blackbox/XFree/MIT(X11)/GNU/Linux
And that doesn't even get started on the countless other applications that are used or have been contributed.
I'll stick with 'Linux' thanks very much. Stallman's accomplishments would probably be better recognized if he wasn't so quick to try to make sure he's credited with them.
Wow the topic certainly disappeared on this one.
First of all I didn't say that all news had a right wing bias, I said they play to people's emotions to get higher ratings. I think that the news media panders to the side that their target audience wants to hear about on any given day.
I also stated that I feel NPR has less of a reason to do that as their existance doesn't depend on ratings and they don't have shareholders hounding them to make more money. Thus they are more likely to be balanced and I don't feel they treat me like I'm stupid.
Now how someone's political leanings have anything to do with their OS choice is beyond me. Slashdot tends to be a haven for young left leaning people that support Open Source. I bet most of them didn't pick Open Source because they lean left, that's a strawman and really it doesn't make any sense. There are plenty of conservative people who use open source and like Fox news just fine.
Personally I use OSS because Microsoft is a pain in the arse when it comes to interpolibility. So sure while a lot of their stuff works just fine for what its intended to do if it doesn't play nice with my OSS stuff then it won't be on my network. That doesn't make me a fanatic it makes me practical.
Stuff like that comes from your local station and not the programs that run nationwide. I'm near Dallas and the local stuff tends to be more conservative. When I say that NPR is more balanced I'm speaking of the nationally syndicated shows.
As for intelligence? No, the use way more emotion. Almost everytime I pass the station they have something like: "grandmother in Iraq who is blind who lost her grandchild" because of a war or some other depressing story.
What news outlet doesn't do this?
Sounds like Bob Edwards just made my point for me. The media didn't hype GWB's contributions to Turkey because it wasn't as juicy as Clinton's BJ. The mainstream media didn't feel that ratings would be as high because really I think the average American who doesn't even know where Turkey is much less give a crap about our foriegn policy toward them.
That's my problem with the mainstream media, they report on the stuff people will tune into, rather than the truth. The few people that might actually care about GWB's foriegn policy in the end don't know about these kinds of things.
Besides that Bob Edwards has never gone on the radio and accused Bush of anything, off the air he's certainly entitled to whatever opinion he wants to have.
This is offtopic I know but NPR leftest?
I'm a Conservative/Moderate and I listen to NPR, I feel that their news is the best and least biased around because they are non-profit, they don't have to worry about keeping one side or the other happy.
The best thing about NPR is that they don't try to hype news to get me to listen. Cable news makes me sick with the way they twist the truth in teasers to get you to tune in to whatever is next by playing with your emotions. NPR treats me like an intellegent person and lets me decide for myself. I don't always agree with them but I never feel like they are trying to get me to either.
Well a group of Linux geeks from my college were doing this in 1997. So this is completely ridiculous.
Not that reading the article is something we used to do :).
Seriously though I hate it as much as the next person but the ads are only 300k. Not fast on a dial-up but definitely not going to take 'hours' to download.
What cracks me up is their 'patented' content delivery system. Its Flash for crying outloud! there is nothing new or special about it, people have been doing this for site intros forever, I'm surprised someone didn't think of this sooner.
The bad news is that it isn't going to be easy to block. The redirect is embedded in the flash so your proxy or your browser would have to decode that flash natively and then direct you to the correct page. If you block the host or turn the flash off then it simply isn't going to load for you and there will be no way to get to the real page.
The easiest thing is don't visit sites with this stuff on it.
Yes and having used BSD, I prefer the SYSV way of doing things. God forbid that someone would like that better!
:)
Also since when does ps (-?)aux not work? I've used that since I started using linux, SYSV style or not. Also my RedHat boxes, though they still have the SYSV init scripts have an rc.local that I can put commands into.
So really use whatever you want!
The only problem with that is the blatent insest. I mean some people are into that sort of thing but not the general public ... :)
Uh ... Apache, PHP, and MySQL all have native Windows ports. Also there is a little program called Cygwin that's been doing the same thing for quite awhile and Linux and OSS still exist.
Move along, the sky is not falling.
In some ways I agree that this tool isn't all that useful. People are going to use whatever distro they want and if they are savy enough to try new distros then like you said they'll install from scratch. However the good news is we aren't being forced to use it. I'm definitely not changing over what works.
Show me a tool that converts portage or rpm data and creates a working Debian equivalent and I'll be impressed.
I use Apt for RPM on my RedHat machines.
Yes I know of this. But that's a choice you have rather than what the language is built around.
Its also the reason I've never used Mason, I disagree with that practice.
mod_perl requires you to code properly so yeah I guess that's more work for anyone who doens't do it in the first place. Its also much more flexable and has shown to be more scalable.
I have no problem with ISP's installing PHP for users, its great for them and it can be made relatively safe. I'm a sysadmin and I have it installed for my users, but when I'm doing a serious project I much prefer Perl if I have a choice.
And many ISPs and other sysadmins I'm familiar with run PHPs as CGI rather than as a part of apache for added security, so the speed issue can be a moot point.
Perl is a great tool. But it is more of tool to use on files then a tool to create webpages. Using perl to generate html or rather bits of html is like using a fully loaded factory workshop to hammer in a nail. Overkill.
Eh? With Perl you use what you need. Nothing beats CPAN. PEAR? not even close. And when you need something non-standard in PHP (graphics libraries?) You have to compile the whole thing again.
Then there's all kinds of other things that you just can't do in PHP without rolling your own or trusting the latest snippet from php1337haX0rs.com. What do you do if you need to actually parse html? Use templating that a designer can understand? Even easily manipulate text data?
PHP embeds scripting in webpages. Its rarely reusable and it often leads to a mess. Its also the kind of thing we used to flame Microsoft for (scriptable email?). Most other solutions sit outside your webpage (and can often even manipulate your webserver) to generate a page for you.
I think it has a bad name because things like magic quotes, lack of namespaces and a function_name_for_everything() make it feel like it was written with new programmers in mind.
If you need to learn HOW to program you need to start with something other than PHP. A good programmer should be able to learn the syntax of a new language and be able to program in it just as easily as any other language.
;-) */troll*
*troll* Of course since PHP breaks many commonly accepted practices of good programming by default, HOW to program might be appropriate for it.
The problem is number 3. If the documentation is so complete why are the user comments needed? There have been plenty of times I've seen things in user comments that should have been in the actual documentation. That doesn't seem very complete to me.
Prices there are for businesses. We aren't actually offering wireless to residential customers until we can provide hotspots and buy some more bandwidth (ahh the joys of working for startups :) ). I think they are going to start residential at $29.95 and it should be ready sometime in Feb.
http://wavetex.com/
:)
The dial-up is nation-wide. The wireless is expanding but its just in East Texas at the moment.
Disclaimer: Yes I do work for these people, so buy something and help pay my salary
In all seriousness I see this as a good thing. Smaller companies selling dial-up to local areas is usually cheaper and have much better service. Sometimes they even know what they are doing and usually their customers become a bit more savy than they would on AOL or MSN.
Small Business makes up far more of the workforce than corporations do. There are millions of small businesses and only a few hundred publically traded companies. Don't pander to the monoliths, work for people who have real vision, or even start your own business.
Small businesses aren't going to outsource your job, its not cost effective. They normally are going to value your work because you normally are going to have a specific place you fit in. There's always going to be customers are willing to pay a little extra for people to go the extra mile for them.
"With this action AOL controls everything from the OS to the Word Processor to the web sites their customers browse."
Uhhhh.... how is this different from Microsoft controlling all that when you buy a Dell, Gateway et. al.?
Besides they are running XP so I'm not sure where the idea that they control the OS comes from, and last I checked you could browse the entire Internet with the AOL client (just glorified IE).
Finally what's "AOL Office Powered by Sun"? OpenOffice (or StarOffice) rebranded again is my guess. How is that a bad thing?