Some notes on plastics production and recycling, as a plastics materials engineer.
It is possible to break down plastics to their original components, but it is often economically not feasible. I know a plant in China that is cracking nylon-66 to it's two monomers, and selling these monomers back to nylon producers. It is generally much easier to recycle plastics directly, saving a lot of energy and resources in the process.
Secondly, plastics are made nowadays primarily out of oil. But there are processes in existence (developed largely by nazi Germany because they needed oil to run their war but didn't have any natural sources) to create oil and gasoline out of any carbon based material, most notably coal, but anything will do, including wood. The coal-to-oil process is not used these days as oil is too cheap to make it worthwhile.
And finally the amount of oil (including energy) needed to produce the current plastics demand for the world is nothing compared to the energy use for transportation, the single largest energy consumer.
Really, this carbon-offset fad is BS. If I piss in the pool, but pay you not to, does that make the pool cleaner? No it doesn't make it less cleaner.
However, it does make it less dirty, and that is still a good thing.
That said, I totally agree with the point that the total energy consumption of course should go down. That is in the end the way to go. But with the money google is now spending on energy efficiency (in and out of their datacentres), in the end they will make sure a lot of energy is saved.
In the end we want of course to go to a completely carbon-neutral economy (and it seems that Venezuela may beat the rest of the world in that, I'm really interested on how they're going to pull that off) - and one way to do this is investing in energy-saving technology on the one hand, and renewable energy sources on the other hand, and it appears to me that Google is now doing exactly that. Both of them even.
That won't work, as the energy has to come from something.
I don't know the numbers, but it is a reasonably starting point that US domestic transportation takes at least as much energy than the current electicity use in the US. That means the power plants have to double their capacity.
And where is that power source coming from then? Most likely imported oil.
Maybe the most interesting part of this, is that he probably "agreed" to a click-through license. Or maybe even got the download through a direct link, without the need of clicking un such a license?
How will the click-through license hold up in court?
You are thinking about it (which of course is a good thing).
Many users do not think about it - at least the ones that fall for the scams are more likely thinking like this:
"Oh, my bank needs to verify my identity. Oh, convenient, there's a link here, then in one go I can open the Internet and go there.".
That of course is much easier than opening the browser, digging through your bookmarks (and plenty of users don't keep bookmarks - my wife for example always types in yahoo.com and hotmail.com to check her e-mail!), going to the bank, and figuring out where that upate is (it's then not there of course - but the bank sent an e-mail so must be there! Oh wait there was a link in the mail...)
Yeah well, duh... which shop or gun manufacturer would like to be linked to a murder? I don't think any. After all guns don't kill people, people do, isn't it?
But second hand CD sales... which must be related to illegal copying... what is more noble now then helping to catch those horrible music pirates!
The above of course all ironic... this note is for humourless people.
Even if there are growing pains with Vista, it's incredibly naive to think those issues won't be sorted out within a few months.
- Please, explain to us how the built in DRM will be sorted out in a few months?
I honestly think it won't take that long to be cracked, and to have software available on the 'net that will "fix" the DRM in Vista once and for all. Download it, run it, and have all DRM bypassed or disabled.
Runing./configure or make or make install could cause just as large a problem. Do you read through those scripts before running them?
Of course I don't. Nobody does. But the difference is, I wouldn't run a script like that when receiving it via e-mail, unless specifically requested from the sender. Word documents are another matter. I regularly (few times a week) get them unexpected, from unknown origin, and do open them. That is because I am expecting new sales/purchase leads from new customers/suppliers - that's part of my business. And often they send their info as ms word attachment. That said, I use Linux/OOo so not much risk opening doc files.
The scripts I run are downloaded from "trusted" sources - websites of known open-source software, collection sites like sourceforge, etc.
Wouter.
Re:polycarbonate -- unfortunately not
on
Can CDs Be Recycled?
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Let me tell you that polycarbonate scrap is one of the most valuable scraps around. As long as one keeps it pure! And even if mixed a bit and in big enough pieces we can sort it out in China.
Scrapped, metallised CDs (no cases/paper/etc) at the moment fetch a price of about US$ 1,000 per ton (1,000 kg) in the market in Hong Kong, for complete loads of about 20 ton. I have half a dozen containers with CD scrap on the water on the way to Hong Kong at the moment. Good business.
That said, the material I get is mostly post industrial: rejects and leftovers from the factories, shredded to destroy the copyrights. What happens to the post consumer materials I don't know really.
And then, no kidding, they mostly go via Hong Kong to China for recycling (that's my business; I live in Hong Kong and am trading plastic scraps including scrap CDs and DVDs for a living).
As other people have pointed out, there is a metal layer on the CD. In case of complete disks, this is usually removed using an abrasion system. If a disk is broken or shredded - this is commonly the case as 99% of the collection is post industrial, and those disks have to be destroyed for copyright reasons - or if you are talking about a DVD (metal layer in the middle) they can be washed in sulphuric or hydrochloric acid or the likes.
Washing is done so well, that the recovered plastic (a polycarbonate, PC) can be used to make new CDs.
Unfortunately the process is quite polluting, particularly as the acidic waste is simply purged in the sewer system - if that's available of course. Otherwise I don't know where they purge it, but they for sure don't keep the mess.
The Chinese government is currently trying to stop the trade in CDs exactly because of this environmental reason.
How do we know in 100 years how to read the data?
How do we know in 500 years where to look for it in the first place?
How do we know in 1000 years that we have data stored in our DNA in the first place??
It makes one wonder whether all that "non-coding" DNA is actually information stored there from lost civilisations. Maybe we should start decoding some.
But then: what code is a 1, and what is a 0? and what does such a huge array of 1s and 0s actually mean? is it 7 or 8 or 12 or 16 bit encoded? what is the encoding? does it code to our letters or to hieroglyphs?
Storing data long is one thing. Being able to read it later is another.
Only a small numbers of PCBs are currently recycled. Large quantities are being shipped to China for stripping of components and recovery of the copper. Especially now the copper price is so high. So I don't believe just a small number is being recycled - in the USA maybe, but not world wide!
Slashdot Mirror
Some notes on plastics production and recycling, as a plastics materials engineer.
It is possible to break down plastics to their original components, but it is often economically not feasible. I know a plant in China that is cracking nylon-66 to it's two monomers, and selling these monomers back to nylon producers. It is generally much easier to recycle plastics directly, saving a lot of energy and resources in the process.
Secondly, plastics are made nowadays primarily out of oil. But there are processes in existence (developed largely by nazi Germany because they needed oil to run their war but didn't have any natural sources) to create oil and gasoline out of any carbon based material, most notably coal, but anything will do, including wood. The coal-to-oil process is not used these days as oil is too cheap to make it worthwhile.
And finally the amount of oil (including energy) needed to produce the current plastics demand for the world is nothing compared to the energy use for transportation, the single largest energy consumer.
However, it does make it less dirty, and that is still a good thing.
That said, I totally agree with the point that the total energy consumption of course should go down. That is in the end the way to go. But with the money google is now spending on energy efficiency (in and out of their datacentres), in the end they will make sure a lot of energy is saved.
In the end we want of course to go to a completely carbon-neutral economy (and it seems that Venezuela may beat the rest of the world in that, I'm really interested on how they're going to pull that off) - and one way to do this is investing in energy-saving technology on the one hand, and renewable energy sources on the other hand, and it appears to me that Google is now doing exactly that. Both of them even.
That won't work, as the energy has to come from something.
I don't know the numbers, but it is a reasonably starting point that US domestic transportation takes at least as much energy than the current electicity use in the US. That means the power plants have to double their capacity.
And where is that power source coming from then? Most likely imported oil.
Maybe the most interesting part of this, is that he probably "agreed" to a click-through license. Or maybe even got the download through a direct link, without the need of clicking un such a license?
How will the click-through license hold up in court?
Wouter.
You are thinking about it (which of course is a good thing).
Many users do not think about it - at least the ones that fall for the scams are more likely thinking like this:
"Oh, my bank needs to verify my identity. Oh, convenient, there's a link here, then in one go I can open the Internet and go there.".
That of course is much easier than opening the browser, digging through your bookmarks (and plenty of users don't keep bookmarks - my wife for example always types in yahoo.com and hotmail.com to check her e-mail!), going to the bank, and figuring out where that upate is (it's then not there of course - but the bank sent an e-mail so must be there! Oh wait there was a link in the mail...)
Wouter.
Yeah well, duh... which shop or gun manufacturer would like to be linked to a murder? I don't think any. After all guns don't kill people, people do, isn't it?
But second hand CD sales... which must be related to illegal copying... what is more noble now then helping to catch those horrible music pirates!
The above of course all ironic... this note is for humourless people.
- Please, explain to us how the built in DRM will be sorted out in a few months?
I honestly think it won't take that long to be cracked, and to have software available on the 'net that will "fix" the DRM in Vista once and for all. Download it, run it, and have all DRM bypassed or disabled.
Wouter.
Of course I don't. Nobody does. But the difference is, I wouldn't run a script like that when receiving it via e-mail, unless specifically requested from the sender. Word documents are another matter. I regularly (few times a week) get them unexpected, from unknown origin, and do open them. That is because I am expecting new sales/purchase leads from new customers/suppliers - that's part of my business. And often they send their info as ms word attachment. That said, I use Linux/OOo so not much risk opening doc files.
The scripts I run are downloaded from "trusted" sources - websites of known open-source software, collection sites like sourceforge, etc.
Wouter.
Let me tell you that polycarbonate scrap is one of the most valuable scraps around. As long as one keeps it pure! And even if mixed a bit and in big enough pieces we can sort it out in China.
Scrapped, metallised CDs (no cases/paper/etc) at the moment fetch a price of about US$ 1,000 per ton (1,000 kg) in the market in Hong Kong, for complete loads of about 20 ton. I have half a dozen containers with CD scrap on the water on the way to Hong Kong at the moment. Good business.
That said, the material I get is mostly post industrial: rejects and leftovers from the factories, shredded to destroy the copyrights. What happens to the post consumer materials I don't know really.
Wouter.
And then, no kidding, they mostly go via Hong Kong to China for recycling (that's my business; I live in Hong Kong and am trading plastic scraps including scrap CDs and DVDs for a living).
As other people have pointed out, there is a metal layer on the CD. In case of complete disks, this is usually removed using an abrasion system. If a disk is broken or shredded - this is commonly the case as 99% of the collection is post industrial, and those disks have to be destroyed for copyright reasons - or if you are talking about a DVD (metal layer in the middle) they can be washed in sulphuric or hydrochloric acid or the likes.
Washing is done so well, that the recovered plastic (a polycarbonate, PC) can be used to make new CDs.
Unfortunately the process is quite polluting, particularly as the acidic waste is simply purged in the sewer system - if that's available of course. Otherwise I don't know where they purge it, but they for sure don't keep the mess.
The Chinese government is currently trying to stop the trade in CDs exactly because of this environmental reason.
Wouter.
...would be the first business method coming to mind.
Wouter.
How do we know in 500 years where to look for it in the first place?
How do we know in 1000 years that we have data stored in our DNA in the first place??
It makes one wonder whether all that "non-coding" DNA is actually information stored there from lost civilisations. Maybe we should start decoding some.
But then: what code is a 1, and what is a 0? and what does such a huge array of 1s and 0s actually mean? is it 7 or 8 or 12 or 16 bit encoded? what is the encoding? does it code to our letters or to hieroglyphs?
Storing data long is one thing. Being able to read it later is another.
Wouter.
Only a small numbers of PCBs are currently recycled.
Large quantities are being shipped to China for stripping of components and recovery of the copper. Especially now the copper price is so high. So I don't believe just a small number is being recycled - in the USA maybe, but not world wide!
Wouter.