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Word Vulnerability Compromised US State Dept.

hf256 writes "Apparently hackers using an undisclosed (at the time) vulnerability compromised the State Departments network using a Word document sent as an email attachment. Investigators found multiple instances of infection, informed Microsoft, then had to sever internet connectivity to avoid leaking too much data!"

207 comments

  1. Great news for open formats by Beuno · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well this should push everything towards open document formats a bit more, so it might just be a good thing...

    1. Re:Great news for open formats by aputerguy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Friends don't let Friends use Micro$oft...

    2. Re:Great news for open formats by drago177 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It would be so easy to just install StarOffice on each computer (keep Word), and ask the more technical departments to start using it, if only to save docs in Word format at first. I did this with the last company I worked at, nobody ever even complained. The cost was very minimal, and it actually saved a lot of money and time when an excel file corrupted itself. MS could not open it, but SO opened then re-saved it in MS format, then it worked fine.

    3. Re:Great news for open formats by aichpvee · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      How come you recommend StarOffice over OpenOffice.org? On the Sun payroll or is there something you actual like better about it, other than the support which you don't seem to have much use for from your post?

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    4. Re:Great news for open formats by Gerzel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think one problem is that we are making document formats that are far more than just what they are ostensibly used for. Word processing documents are generally meant to hold blocks of text, some pictures and charts, and some internal pointers. Does a word processing format really need java script, and support for every feature under the sun?

      However a new format for every feature doesn't work too well either. Perhaps an extendable document format that plainly details what features are used in the document, so you can tell if that Word doc in your email has more than just the text of that newly leaked Harry Potter novel.

    5. Re:Great news for open formats by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But if Open Document Text does almost everything .doc files do, how can we be sure it doesn't have similar back doors?

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    6. Re:Great news for open formats by berzerke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How come you recommend StarOffice over OpenOffice.org?...

      Well, perhaps some policy forbids installing free (as in no invoice) software, or the policy requires a support contract.

    7. Re:Great news for open formats by drago177 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I heard the install was faster/easier, and it was. You're right about the support - never tried it, but I did want to contribute to the open source concept, and $ rules the world. I knew those above me wouldn't notice an extra $20 on each pc, but they were scared of 'non-professional software', so to be able to tell them there was support was a necessary safeguard.

      Oh, btw, they were using that excel sheet to keep track of a fleet of buses (this co was archaic in their IT dept when I got there). A radio dispatcher was frantically telling the bus drivers there was a computer problem and to 'hold tight' for 15 minutes till I got there, then 5-10 more minutes to figure out MS file recovery wouldnt cut it, and 5 to install SO from network and fix the prob. The only serious occasion that pitted MS vs SO and the results were stark. So no Im not on Sun's payroll, but the story ought to be a commercial, and I walked out like a hero so I'm happy to tell it.

    8. Re:Great news for open formats by Eggplant62 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Use the SOURCE, Luke.

      With open software, you can look at the source code and see exactly what it does and test it for all the vulnerabilities you want and get them removed, by yourself if you find yourself so talented. Only the monkeys in Redmond know what is really going on in Windows, and anyone using their products is dependent upon MS and MS only for a solution. That may come in days, weeks, but most likely months after a vulnerability is found. Meanwhile, someone ends up releasing details of the vulnerability, then codes up a nasty bug to take adavantage. The fact that MS software is so full of holes and has no real peer-review process among the general population of all possible coders interested in fixing bugs is its weakness in comparison.

    9. Re:Great news for open formats by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 0

      War daat déi éiren déi Saach beim T.I.C.E.?

    10. Re:Great news for open formats by boer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > With open software, you can look at the source code and see exactly what it does

      I though even the OS community had realised by now how ridiculous this argument is. World economy would in effect come to a halt if every company and public office started to scan source codes for potential vulnerabilities. This is hardly a selling argument and being a wise-ass about it has never helped the OS movement.

      Having a goal of zero vulnerabilities is such complex software as an office suite is strikes as feasible only to an ideologist nerd. In practise there will always be vulnerabilities as long as human beings will be responsible for the design and programming. And having gazillions of eyes searching through the source code presumably on the company dollar is not effective way to remove those faults.

      --
      (This sig intentionally left blank)
    11. Re:Great news for open formats by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Parent is making a valid point, and is not a troll, whoever modded them that way. The 'more eyes' argument doesn't really work for me either. I use open source software all the time, and I rarely have a look at the source code, and even less frequently take the trouble to understand even a small part of it.

      What does work for me with open source is that the nature of open, distributed development tends to promote code modularity, which helps keep those defect counts down. And the fact that code is publicly available exerts an influence on developers to publish code they aren't be ashamed of (unlike what happens in proprietary software development with tight deadlines set by the sales team making unrealistic promises to clients - I have been there).

      However, there is a real distinction between defect-free software (probably does not exist) and software that intentionally includes back-doors. With open-source, you can have more confidence that there is no back door, spy-ware, or anything else that shouldn't be part of the application. But it certainly doesn't mean the software will be defect free.

    12. Re:Great news for open formats by Chineseyes · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the U.S. Gov,'t have access to the source?

      --
      I think the invisible hand of the market has its middle finger extended

      --A wise old fart named SC0RN
    13. Re:Great news for open formats by RealEstateGuy · · Score: 1

      I had a need to open an excel file a few weeks ago on a new machine that didn't have Office. Instead of waiting for the 1.5 - 2 hours for Microsoft Office to install I just downloaded star office and installed (took all of 10 minutes). The crazy part is I completely forgot I was using it instead of Microsoft office until I needed to save a file out to our SharePoint site (SO doesn't support that apparently). Sounds like a feature request to me! :)

    14. Re:Great news for open formats by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      I would not call them monkeys. But your point is well taken, no body in Redmond knows ALL the obscure hack some programmer did to meet shipping deadline way back in 1993, who has since cashed out his options and is swilling tequila in Aruba. Open Source too could have this problem of people working on a project and then going away. But I believe there is greater continuity of coders in the Open Source arena. Mainly because, I think, not many of them have become millionairs swilling tequila in Aruba.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    15. Re:Great news for open formats by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 3, Funny

      Instead of waiting for the 1.5 - 2 hours for Microsoft Office to install I just downloaded star office and installed (took all of 10 minutes).
      You know, you can't really count the amount of time it takes to download Microsoft Office via BitTorrent from a pirate site as part of the install time. Office 2003 took me about 15 minutes to install. Quit making shit up.
    16. Re:Great news for open formats by aussie_a · · Score: 0

      The US State Department being compromised is a good thing? Wow. I guess you're the definition of a zealot.

    17. Re:Great news for open formats by peragrin · · Score: 1

      I agree completely.
      Open Source Software isn't defect free.
      Open Source Isn't bug free.

      Not having to rely on a single point of failure --- priceless.

      That point of failure can be hardware, software, or corporate--either yours or theirs. I wouldn't trust all Apple software, an all IBM software, or an all Sun software either, So why would anyone trust an All Microsoft Software? open Source doesn't come from one source. Best of all you have the tools and pieces needed so you can hire a company to patch it for you.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    18. Re:Great news for open formats by tomstdenis · · Score: 3, Funny

      Does that include the time for downloading updates, rebooting, and praying towards Redmond?

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    19. Re:Great news for open formats by mwillems · · Score: 1

      Hang on a sec. The fact that source is open does NOT mean that "everyone" has to look at it. The point is that:

      a) Everyone CAN look at it (s o no backdoors will be implemented)

      b) Some people actually DO look at it (so more bugs tend to be found by a wider audience, more quickly).

      c) Many WOULD look at it if they needed to (a really urgent issue can be solved locally if need be).

      So yes, of course Open Source is good if you want safer software.

      Michael

      --

      ---
      BDOS ERR ON A:>
    20. Re:Great news for open formats by RealEstateGuy · · Score: 1

      Try Office 12 smartass

    21. Re:Great news for open formats by sqlrob · · Score: 1

      a) is correct, conclusion is not (see Ken Thompson's attack against a compiler)

      b) is also an incorrect conclusion. See the year and a half before finding the hard coded password in Interbase, and the exploitable double free that was in zlib for several years

    22. Re:Great news for open formats by dodobh · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      This is the US State Department. They don't need to save stuff in MS Word format, given that they are a bigger monopoly than Microsoft.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    23. Re:Great news for open formats by Sir+Codelot · · Score: 1

      Well this should push everything towards open document formats a bit more, so it might just be a good thing...

      What has a file format to do with vulnerabilities? The vulnerability is in the program that reads the document. What is the guarantee that using open document formats will reduce vulnerabilities, assuming the program is still closed source?

      --
      I have a truly marvelous proof of the Riemann hypothesis which this sig is too short to contain...
    24. Re:Great news for open formats by zacronos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      a) Everyone CAN look at it [the source] (so no backdoors will be implemented)
      a) is correct, conclusion is not (see Ken Thompson's attack against a compiler)
      Actually, I would say a)'s conclusion was correct (and yes I'm familiar with the attack you mentioned). The poster did not say "no backdoors can exist in the software", but "no backdoors will be implemented". Assuming the poster meant "no backdoors will be implemented in the software being examined", I would say it is a correct statement -- there is a difference between a backdoor implemented in the source of software and a backdoor injected into the software by a compiler. Those are 2 different vectors that can both allow a backdoor in software (and both are possible regardless of whether it is closed or open source). Open source greatly reduces the likelihood of one of those vectors being attempted, and if attempted it probably reduces the expected length of time it will persist unnoticed.

      Saying open source software is no protection against backdoors because it is vulnerable to compiler-injected code is like saying that wearing a bullet-proof vest into a warzone is no protection because you're still just as vulnerable to stepping on a land mine.
    25. Re:Great news for open formats by mattr · · Score: 1

      I get where you're coming from but the reality is probably more interesting. Of course businesses in general won't be looking at source code, but they will have MD5 (or better)hashes. Imagine this instead: finding vulnerabilities in code for popular apps will become bragging rights for budding engineers and a revolution is started when in addition to the ODF being used as a standard document format, major institutions also buy into a standard amount of horsepower and a standard feature set, that is for example OpenOffice.org version 3.50. It fufills every need unless you feel a need for bloatware. Then all that is left is to make sure that version is bulletproof, which happens gradually but is a fixed target. Once the number of bugs found approaches zero, two interesting things happen.

      1. A set of standardized "flavors" gets decided on. By flavors I refer to a concept of Ingy dot Net's which he described at YAPC::Asia in Tokyo this month. He has a pretty complicated source tree with IIRC >200 modules submitted by many people. A flavor is defined as an operating set of modules as defined by a given person, and you can subscribe to a flavor.

      2. The many eyes, the need for thesis projects, the Open Courseware and increased prowess of China and other countries lead to such competition that you get a lot more really sharp people extending code and creating new functions. This increases inversely as developers' available time increases. Corporate IT people finally get a stable infrastructure at least for the core system and are able to spend more time identifying real needs, which they can then share with developers around the world for cheap, quick, useful extensions.

      I think this is a possible future. It doesn't take a genius to realize that an endless number of distros, constantly increasing features, and a perpetual subscription to slow script-driven code is just wasteful.

      Vista wants 5GHz, it wants 10GHz, and if you had 50GHz Vista or Son of Vista or Mother of All Vista would happily borg it all up in 10 years I'm sure. Just how much power do you need to run a word processor? Electrical costs and hyperactive displays aren't needed. Maybe video streams, encryption and "calm computing" awareness of the user will eat up some of it.

      It is entirely likely that sets of hardware and software requirements will become defined at a few levels of progressive capability, and people will finally know what to buy: the hardware+software package that has it all installed, and perhaps buy an extra certificate to add to a per-seat subscription to spam/virus/firewall/vulnerability related system updates.

      Your argument only states the obvious, that no company will take on a science project at the risk of its bottom line. However, risk can be distributed, a fixed target is a fixed goal, and some companies and academic and governmental organizations will want to hire people to ensure infrastructure reliability and look at these problems.

      A huge amount of effort that is currently wasted on Windows can be turned, through sharing and coordination of effort over the net, to cleaning up and eventually extending intelligently a fixed number of core business systems for a minimum number of necessary usage scenarios. It is possible that humans are intelligent enough for this kind of self-organizing mechanism to appear despite the pressures capitalism places on computing system development.

    26. Re:Great news for open formats by sqlrob · · Score: 1

      That's not the only source. There's also crafted overflows that may not be seen on simple inspection.

      Yes, OSS helps. Just don't forget it's not a panacea. Many eyes != many skilled and/or interested eyes.

    27. Re:Great news for open formats by LO0G · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, because those open document formats are 100% safe from coding bugs in the applications that parse them.

      And unquestionably OpenOffice is immune to parsing errors.

    28. Re:Great news for open formats by trianglman · · Score: 1

      While I think I agree with your general principal, I have to very strongly disagree with the zero bugs is a fixed target statement. While the target never changes, it does move with every change to the software. Each bug fix can, and in many cases does, create more new ones or reopens old ones. Every new feature added can create conflicts, bugs, and other wonkiness.

      --
      Clones are people two.
    29. Re:Great news for open formats by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      With open software, you can look at the source code and see exactly what it does and test it for all the vulnerabilities you want and get them removed, by yourself if you find yourself so talented

      I was going to mod you down but I figured you wouldn't realize why.

      Your statement is false. There is NO PERSON ON THE PLANET who could look through the source code of a sufficiently complex piece of software, like Open Office, find "all the vulnerabilities," and fix them.

      The human brain, even that of a genius, just does not have the ability to fully grasp any incredibly complex software and perceive all possible security problems with that software.

      Quit spreading BS.
      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    30. Re:Great news for open formats by cmacb · · Score: 1

      I worked at State for a few years and found that they have their heads totally up Microsoft's ass. I don't expect this will change anything. Mentioning any alternative to Microsoft products for all practical purposes is forbidden.

      When the Federal government starts to trend away from its Windows-only situation, and I think this WILL happen eventually, the State Department will be among the last to switch. It took Wang going out of the computer hardware business for them to even START migrating to something else. That is indicative of their mindset.

    31. Re:Great news for open formats by The+Spoonman · · Score: 1

      I did, just last night. 15-20 minutes, which included downloading the updates. Your computer is broken, fix it and stop blaming everyone else.

      --
      Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
      http://www.workorspoon.com
    32. Re:Great news for open formats by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      and I rarely have a look at the source code

      This argument - given not just by you, btw - is pretty flawed, since you guys basically say that because you don't look at the sources nobody else does, which is absolutely now true. A valid point is that there is the possibility to look at the source and quite a few people do that, and that's exactly the reason why you can use those open source software in the first place. Sou I think you'd better give more credit to these people and acknowledge the good property of FOSS software that permits us take it, improve it and distribute it for others to use it, and yeah, for free.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    33. Re:Great news for open formats by A.Gideon · · Score: 1

      Further, if someone incapable of reviewing/fixing code is truly blocked in some way, there are two choices. The first choice is the same as that with closed source: await a fix from someone else. But the second choice is closed to closed source: hire someone to do the fix.

      Open Source can be treated as closed source by any given user; it is therefore no worse. But it offers options and possibilities that closed source cannot.

    34. Re:Great news for open formats by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying that just because I rarely look at the source no-one else does. Clearly some people do! I'm saying that very few users of an open source product bother, and even fewer invest the time to actually understand it to any useful extent. I don't have statistics on this, so I'm just guessing here - if you can point me to any metrics that would be very interesting.

      For very small bits of software, the many eyes theory probably does have an effect, but I would venture that there aren't significantly more developers that really understand the larger pieces of open source software than for a comparable proprietary product.

      I do not dispute the many benefits of open source software - I am a big fan of it, for many reasons. I give full credit to those who give up their time to create something wonderful. I have even paid for open source software, even though I could get it for free, to support those developers. I just don't really subscribe to the many eyes theory for larger pieces of software.

      Having said that, the fact that anyone *can* do so is a huge advantage for me over proprietary solutions. Not so much the "many eyes" theory, as the "any eyes" theory.

    35. Re:Great news for open formats by jafac · · Score: 1

      Having a goal of zero vulnerabilities is such complex software as an office suite is strikes as feasible only to an ideologist nerd.

      Ever work in Aerospace?

      Plenty of ideological nerds there.

      And REAL money.

      The source-code argument is a valid one. Maybe not for most people. But for some people, it's an absolute must-have.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    36. Re:Great news for open formats by mtenhagen · · Score: 1

      But you should count the hours you need to work to pay for the license.

      --
      200GB/2TB $7.95 Coupon: SAVE90DOLLAR
    37. Re:Great news for open formats by GWBasic · · Score: 1

      Well this should push everything towards open document formats a bit more, so it might just be a good thing...

      Personally, I think that it's better to use PDF instead of Word for document interchange. It would be cool if someone set up a server that would automatically convert incoming Word documents to PDF. (The server could be wrapped in a VM.)

    38. Re:Great news for open formats by dodobh · · Score: 1

      Uh? Flamebait? The government IS a monopoly, by definition.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    39. Re:Great news for open formats by mattr · · Score: 1

      Thank you very much for your comment, even though it is perhaps a drastic suggestion. However as to your disagreement, I am in agreement with you. "Zaro boogs" indeed. However (and maybe I didn't express it well) my suggestion is that a feature freeze is implemented, which is why zero bugs is a goal.

      Certainly there will be a threshold below which something is not considered a bug, but the idea is simply that if everybody (or at least a bunch of governments and business organizations) can agree on a frozen feature set then it becomes possible to more quickly remove bugs, improve security and even (if desirable) accelerate parts of it for use on lesser machines. Eventually snapshots of whole systems using a single unified directory structure, a single window manager, etc. that are frozen into place can easily be downloaded by people onto their machines and they know it will work and be sufficient for the task.

      I think that if Microsoft, Intel and all the other companies that need to bloat software to make money are not in the driver's seat, it should be possible to greatly improve quality and reduce cost.

      Probably it will also require the creation of experts who are not biased or paid by an interested company or its shills, to actually evaluate software packages or plugins and grade them as to how well they do their core job and interoperate with the rest of the system. Enforcing sanity, if you will. Does this make sense?

  2. Hmmm...hackers by Spookticus · · Score: 5, Funny

    It seems those hackers missed the Philippines and accidentally hit the state department instead

    1. Re:Hmmm...hackers by dclozier · · Score: 2, Funny

      and bush won again. just who are these hackers? :D

    2. Re:Hmmm...hackers by alexjohnc3 · · Score: 1

      No, I'm pretty sure they were aiming for the US. We're pretty much the only ones who will fall for an infected Microsoft Word document.

    3. Re:Hmmm...hackers by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Heh. I wonder if this is the same story or a continuation from the story about the D.O.D. computers getting hacked or attempted hacks.?

    4. Re:Hmmm...hackers by MrNormS · · Score: 1

      "A love letter from [insert famous actress/model] with an attached word document! That's obviously for me and not suspicious at all... I better open it!"

    5. Re:Hmmm...hackers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meanwhile Hackers have posted the data gleamed out from DOD...

      "... P = NP .. proved 1989 .."

      "... let's hold the results.."

      "... let those damn scientists break their heads..."

  3. Quick by WED+Fan · · Score: 3, Funny

    Quick everyone, the bandwagon is getting ready to leave. Jump on.

    --
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    1. Re:Quick by Sancho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What magical office software do you use that is apparently 100% bug free?

    2. Re:Quick by grcumb · · Score: 5, Funny

      What magical office software do you use that is apparently 100% bug free?

      Emacs

      *ducks and runs*

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    3. Re:Quick by renegadesx · · Score: 0

      Vi

      --
      Make SELinux enforcing again!
    4. Re:Quick by aichpvee · · Score: 3, Funny

      Does that include a decent text editor yet?

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    5. Re:Quick by laejoh · · Score: 0

      What magical office software do you use that is apparently 100% bug free?

      Latex, the writer offer(s|ed) cash for bugs found

    6. Re:Quick by Jugalator · · Score: 2, Funny

      Tsk, tsk, Linux users these days...
      I type OpenOffice.org Writer XML in VI... In the format's ZIP-compressed form!

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    7. Re:Quick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sure, it comes with a preinstalled vi implementation.

    8. Re:Quick by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      The one I have the source code for.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    9. Re:Quick by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Latex, the writer offer(s|ed) cash for bugs found Latex is neither a word processor, nor a text editor; it's software that typesets files you've already created (presumably using another text editor).
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    10. Re:Quick by lanswitch · · Score: 2, Funny

      But does it run Linux?

    11. Re:Quick by gratemyl · · Score: 1

      Offtopic, but - 11 types of people, those who know binaries and those who don't...

      That makes 2 (10) for me, not 3 (11).

      Just wanted to mention...

      --
      hackerkey://v4sw5/7BCHJMPRUY$hw3ln3pr6/7FOP$ck6ma8+9u6L$w4/7CGUXm0l6DLRi82NCe3+9t5Sb7HMOPRen5a17s0DSr1/2p-3.62/-5.23g3/5
    12. Re:Quick by LilGuy · · Score: 1

      If you really do understand binary, you probably should realize it's a joke.

      --

      You're nothing; like me.
    13. Re:Quick by gratemyl · · Score: 1

      I though that one was:

      "There are 11 types of people in this world: those who don't understand binary and those who understand binary but can't count."

      or

      "There are 11 kinds of people. Those who understand unary notation, and those who do not." ...

      --
      hackerkey://v4sw5/7BCHJMPRUY$hw3ln3pr6/7FOP$ck6ma8+9u6L$w4/7CGUXm0l6DLRi82NCe3+9t5Sb7HMOPRen5a17s0DSr1/2p-3.62/-5.23g3/5
    14. Re:Quick by bhsx · · Score: 1
      Except the question wasn't what word processor or editor is bug free...

      What magical office software do you use that is apparently 100% bug free? I'd consider Latex office software. If you don't consider it such, what is it?
      --
      put the what in the where?
    15. Re:Quick by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Yeah; I should have read the GGP more closely, sorry.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    16. Re:Quick by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      It's a good job we're not relying on your knowledge of binary encoding for anything important then.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    17. Re:Quick by gratemyl · · Score: 1

      And the reason for that is?

      Just interested...

      --
      hackerkey://v4sw5/7BCHJMPRUY$hw3ln3pr6/7FOP$ck6ma8+9u6L$w4/7CGUXm0l6DLRi82NCe3+9t5Sb7HMOPRen5a17s0DSr1/2p-3.62/-5.23g3/5
  4. Scary by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fact that a simple Word document can cause such a big problem is really sad. How can you tell a few thousand of people not to open word document attachment? I mean, where I work, users receive tons of documents (pdf, office, autocad) files by email from vendors and such, I guess the only defense is good email filtering but still a 0-day attack would make that useless.

    1. Re:Scary by hcmtnbiker · · Score: 1

      Remember OO has had its share of exploits as well. Why would you ever open anything not from a source you know if you where in the State Department? All this really shows is the ignorance of our government(and I can say OUR because every government shares in ignorance). I'm sure the guy who opened it had someone behind him saying "It's only a Word document, how could that do anything? See what it is."

      --
      If i had one dollar for every brain you dont have, i would have $1.
    2. Re:Scary by tubapro12 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. One would think people would be smarter about security in something as high as the state department.

    3. Re:Scary by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      Even a document from someone you trust can't be trusted yet the risk is outweighed by the speed benefit of email. Maybe the state department should go to text only email with no attachments. Copy pasting documents into emails mught help mitigate future attacks.

    4. Re:Scary by mrbluze · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The fact that a simple Word document can cause such a big problem is really sad. How can you tell a few thousand of people not to open word document attachment?

      Of course this is a popular article because it's more evidence of how Microsoft's 'professional' products are so amateurish, but you're right, you can't tell thousands of people not to open an attachment.

      The root of the problem doesn't lie in Word documents, or Word for Windows. The problem lies in Windows, period. The operating system is practically incapable of separating important and sensitive data from junk-mail and untrusted documents from the outside. In such a place as the State Department, it's scandalous.

      Whilst hypothetically, Linux is also vulnerable (eg: through some flaw in Open Office), a properly configured system could protect itself without needing to rely on the end user to manually screen every bit of junk they come across. Sure there would potentially have been some corruption of data, maybe some low level leakage, but really, this all points to a hopelessly overcomplicated and poorly designed OS. Naughty Bill!

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    5. Re:Scary by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why would you ever open anything not from a source you know if you where in the State Department? ...
      FTA (which isn't entirely clear.
      The mysterious State Department e-mail appeared to be legitimate and included a Microsoft Word document with material from a congressional speech related to Asian diplomacy, Reid said. By opening the document, the employee activated hidden software commands establishing what Reid described as back door communications with the hackers.
      It's not clear but I wouldn't be so quick to say the employee was stupid for opening an email with out knowing the source. If it appeared legit and it was just a plain word doc with not VB scripts then it's not all his/her fault.

      And why are you taking aim at governments in particular, any government corporation or single home user could have been fooled by this.

      --
      500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
    6. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Runing ./configure or make or make install could cause just as large a problem. Do you read through those scripts before running them?

      Furthermore, buffer overflows could exist in just about any program. There could be one in emacs right now, triggered by reading a file into the buffer. Then it would be "scary.. The fact that a simple text file can cause such a big problem is really sad."

      Unfortunately, they didn't disclose the nature of the vulnerability. "hidden software commands" in the mass media could be anything from shellcode to an executable embedded in the document, to a macro. Since Microsoft patched it, it was probably either something that autoran or an overflow.

    7. Re:Scary by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's interesting to note that the compromises on our machines don't occur on our terminal servers or the critical PC's, they only occur on the one's that "absolutely must have" administrative access on their local machine.

      A properly configured windows system is as secure as a properly configured linux system (well, in this case anyway!). And in case your wondering: If our helpdesk can't solve the issue within 15 minutes the PC is re-imaged no questions asked no data saved. People store stuff on network servers because they're told to, anyone who doesn't comply with IT is made to suffer the consequences.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    8. Re:Scary by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If our helpdesk can't solve the issue within 15 minutes the PC is re-imaged no questions asked no data saved.

      Christ on a stick! That's a bloody good reason to hide EVERY problem from the IT Nazis.

      Does anyone ever get any work done?

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    9. Re:Scary by tftp · · Score: 1
      Why would you ever open anything not from a source you know

      And how, short of digital signatures, would you know who sent the email? SMTP has no method to authenticate the sender, as spammers demonstrate every day. You can send a fake email with nothing more than a telnet app.

    10. Re:Scary by tftp · · Score: 2, Interesting
      A properly configured windows system is as secure as a properly configured linux system

      It is also unmanageable by the operator. The IT does not have time to run around and help everyone when he needs to connect to a printer, for example, or install an approved, free or site-licensed piece of software. A simple XP user can't even change his own preferences in Word; a power user can't connect to a printer (but can install some software.) The XP privileges and their effects are as chaotic as they can be.

    11. Re:Scary by jkrise · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Runing ./configure or make or make install could cause just as large a problem. Do you read through those scripts before running them?

      Furthermore, buffer overflows could exist in just about any program. There could be one in emacs right now, triggered by reading a file into the buffer. Then it would be "scary.. The fact that a simple text file can cause such a big problem is really sad."


      Nice attempt to evade the issue by raking up redundant matters. The crux of the problem here is that MS Word needs or provides Internet access for some of it's functions. Even if it had any buffer overflows, the problem would not be exploitable from remote systems.

      The fact that Word is designed to occasionally talk over the internet coupled with it's hooks into the OS via things like VBA etc. is the problem. In fact, the main problem here is not Word or Office, it is the Windows architecture that is vulnerable.

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    12. Re:Scary by wvmarle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Runing ./configure or make or make install could cause just as large a problem. Do you read through those scripts before running them?
      Of course I don't. Nobody does. But the difference is, I wouldn't run a script like that when receiving it via e-mail, unless specifically requested from the sender. Word documents are another matter. I regularly (few times a week) get them unexpected, from unknown origin, and do open them. That is because I am expecting new sales/purchase leads from new customers/suppliers - that's part of my business. And often they send their info as ms word attachment. That said, I use Linux/OOo so not much risk opening doc files.
      The scripts I run are downloaded from "trusted" sources - websites of known open-source software, collection sites like sourceforge, etc.

      Wouter.
    13. Re:Scary by aichpvee · · Score: 1

      Maybe when we get people running the government who care more about governing than packing all the departments with cronies we'll have a chance. But even then I still wouldn't bet on it.

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    14. Re:Scary by FranklinDelanoBluth · · Score: 1

      Runing ./configure or make or make install could cause just as large a problem. Do you read through those scripts before running them?

      Better yet do you know that you're compiler isn't hardcoded to put backdoors in programs?

    15. Re:Scary by oGMo · · Score: 1

      Runing ./configure or make or make install could cause just as large a problem. Do you read through those scripts before running them?

      Running configure and make on a package from a "reputable" source is not the same as opening random documents people send you in an email. Or do you routinely have source packages mailed to you which you blindly build?

      I say "reputable" because while, in theory, you could download a source package from, say, sourceforge, that someone had trojaned, there are a number of factors which make this an unlikely vector:

      • This would be found quickly by users, reported, and removed from sourceforge in short order
      • There are high odds that, if the piece of software you are using is generally usable and of wide appeal, there are a lot of other people who use it, and the maintainers are well-known (how many big open source projects are done anonymously?)
      • The user in question would immediately lose all trust; no one would take patches or allow repository/site access to this person again
      • You'd quickly hear about it on slashdot and other news sites

      Yes, this could happen. It might happen. In fact, though a slightly different situation, gnu.org was hacked a few years ago. All the potentially-compromised code was dumped and reevaluated. This was basically a worst-case scenario: a trusted distributor was compromised. Yet they survived.

      (As for claims of "well what if it were really well hidden!" ... these things don't hide well. It's easy to notice extraneous network traffic and processes. If there was an extensive rootkit hidden in the source, it might be one thing, but the more complicated you get, the less chance you have of portability and success. This is the strength of polyculture.)

      Furthermore, buffer overflows could exist in just about any program. There could be one in emacs right now, triggered by reading a file into the buffer. Then it would be "scary.. The fact that a simple text file can cause such a big problem is really sad."

      This particular example is rather silly; however even if it were the case for the sake of argument, it's not the same: exploiting a buffer overflow in emacs as a regular user will not give you root access to the system.

      In the end it comes down to a lack of trust of Microsoft. A single, opaque source, whose security and design practices have a history of being laughable, little evidence of proactivity on the issue, and no way to verify anything they say. You pay them, they say "trust us!", and yet, there is repeated evidence that there is good reason not to trust them.

      --

      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

    16. Re:Scary by dave1g · · Score: 2, Interesting

      actually you can. you just have to be hard core like the military. I work for a military contractor (a university research lab) we received an email telling us to not use word documents what so ever for a certain period of time. and if we didnt comply we lose our contracts. all attachments were being made in rich text format, some of the non techies were scrambling to figure out how to do it but life went on.

      not trying to excuse microsoft for their shitty product, just saying you can tell people to stop using word for a few weeks if there are real consequences.

    17. Re:Scary by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually its a very effective method for both the IT team and the people who desperately need the administrative access. IT aren't required to understand every little john doe program that these people can want to install so they don't have to support them (this is very clearly communicated to these users).

      It also means that we have a relativly standardised form across the board despite having PC's everywhere and very quickly weed out the users who think they're smart but aren't really.

      An example of a good operator: there's a bloke over in administration who I would swear used to work in IT. He's got Open Office installed when everyone else uses Microsoft Office, he uses firefox, thunderbird and trillian for his messenger. About 500 theme packs and a few other bits of software. According to our helpdesk logging system he has only ever called once, and this was when he patched himself for the new daylight savings time last year. Everyone else had the problem as well.

      Also, so that those who aren't aware know, you don't have to be a local administrator to install a network printer. Anyone hooking a printer directly to a PC in a corporate environment is either a director or an IT who has lots to learn.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    18. Re:Scary by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Would a buffer overflow give a remote attacker control of the computer? Err let me rephrase that. Would a buffer overflow in emacs when opening a document in emacs give that document the power to notify a hacker it has done it's job and then give that hacker control of the computer with enough access to gain access to other information and retrieve it?

      I think the problem of having a problem is as bad as how easy and automated the problem can be. It isn't necessarily that a bug exist but what can be done with the bug and what can be automated to effect it. I'm not sure MS is just like any other software in this example. Or any other software is like MS's in the same ways.

    19. Re:Scary by Raideen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As the GP stated, "People store stuff on network servers because they're told to, anyone who doesn't comply with IT is made to suffer the consequences." Keeping data on the individual PCs is costly. In an environment that's setup properly (folder redirection at least, no write access to the hard drive outside of the home directory, maybe the addition of roaming profiles), there's no reason to worry about data stored on the local disk. If they re-image the machine and you still have issues, swap out the hardware and you're working again. Such policies can easily save a user hours of downtime and it also saves the time of the IT staffer. It all translates into saving money for the company.

    20. Re:Scary by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      Christ on a stick! That's a bloody good reason to hide EVERY problem from the IT Nazis.

      Does anyone ever get any work done? Of course!

      The IT department gets LOTS of work done! Very efficient. :-D
      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    21. Re:Scary by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      And why are you taking aim at governments in particular, any government corporation or single home user could have been fooled by this. Because for the government, much more is at stake than for a simple home user. They should have followed trainings instructing them about proper security precautions.
    22. Re:Scary by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      And how, short of digital signatures, would you know who sent the email? SMTP has no method to authenticate the sender, as spammers demonstrate every day. You can send a fake email with nothing more than a telnet app. Nowadays, there are workarounds, such as SPF. If it passes SPF (and if SPF was properly set up by the domain being verified), you can assume with some confidence that the mail is legit.

      And, in case of mails purporting to be from the government itself (as was apparently the case here...): why isn't their MTA rejecting all mails that claim to be internal but came in via the public internet rather than the VPN?

    23. Re:Scary by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 4, Informative

      The crux of the problem here is that MS Word needs or provides Internet access for some of it's functions. Even if it had any buffer overflows, the problem would not be exploitable from remote systems. Although Word does probably provide Internet access to its macros and other nasties, this was not a necessary condition for this to work. Even if MS Word didn't have any code within to connect to the internet, any supposed exploit would have been able to supply its own. And from the looks of it, this is what happen here. Apparently, this was some kind of call-back program that would somehow tunnel out through the firewall, connect to the hacker's control console and accept instructions from there.

      Such a thing is rather complex, and probably not pre-existing within word. It was brought in by the trojan itself.

    24. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution would be Open Document Format; if you had many software programs able to read the same document, than an atack will only target one of those programs; all the people using the other programs will be safe

    25. Re:Scary by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      This would be found quickly by users, reported, and removed from sourceforge in short order Why the conditional tense? Such things have already happened several times. And indeed, they've usually been located within days, but during that time, other people already have downloaded, built and run the trojaned packages.

      There are high odds that, if the piece of software you are using is generally usable and of wide appeal, there are a lot of other people who use it, and the maintainers are well-known (how many big open source projects are done anonymously?) What usually happens is that the distribution system is hacked, i.e. a third party somehow manages to slip a backdoor into a reputable program. Or maybe a minor contributor submits a "sneaky" patch that appears to fix a bug, but introduces another one using a well-placed typo. If this is sneaky enough, or if the main author is too trusting, this could indeed wreak some havoc.

      if(uid = 0) {
      perform_some_operation();
      } else {
      raise_error();
      }
      Yes, this particular example would raise warnings if compiled using -Wall, but a skilled attacker could introduce stuff which is less easy to detect.

      The user in question would immediately lose all trust; no one would take patches or allow repository/site access to this person again That minor contributor would use a throw-away account, and never troll under the same name again.

      You'd quickly hear about it on slashdot and other news sites And indeed, there have been several reports of such incidents on Slashdot (but I'm too lazy to look them up right away. But as far as I remember, big names such as OpenSSH and FreeBSD have been affected). AFAIR, most such incidents involved security holes in the repository sites, rather than "sneaky" patches.
    26. Re:Scary by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      > How can you tell a few thousand of people not to open word document attachment?

      Use an effective mail/document storage system.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    27. Re:Scary by jkrise · · Score: 1

      Apparently, this was 1. some kind of call-back program that would somehow tunnel out through the firewall, connect to the hacker's control console and accept instructions from there.

      Such a thing is rather complex, and probably not pre-existing within word. It was brought in by 2. the trojan itself.


      1. Excuse me... how would such a call-back program be initiated, and how would it perform the desired function? Does it not mean that Word has the provision / bug of being able to initiate external programs that can perform actions at a higher privilege than the user reading the document? Is that not a serious architectural bug in Word AND IN Windows as well?

      2. I think 'the trojan' is a weak and misleading description for this program. It is an exploit for a hole in the operating system... nothing less.

      Frankly, I wonder how you can speculate with any accuracy regarding this problem, since the article is extremely short on meaningful data regarding the bug exploit.

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    28. Re:Scary by jimicus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Christ on a stick! That's a bloody good reason to hide EVERY problem from the IT Nazis.

      Does anyone ever get any work done?


      Depending on your environment, that can actually be the quickest, easiest way to solve a problem.

      The GP didn't explain his environment, but in a lot of larger companies you'll find things are standardised as much as is humanly possible. In IT departments, "as much as is humanly possible" quite often isn't very much, so reimaging PCs there is a PITA for all concerned.

      But in a call centre, it's fine. In any office where all the people have clear, well-defined roles and you know in advance what software they need (let's say Office, one or two proprietary apps and that's about it), again, it's OK. Things only get complicated when the tools people need to fulfil their roles varies substantially from person to person and even from week to week.

    29. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is exactly why organizations should start using Google's Docs. No more need to email an attachment of your document, simply link to it in your email. Problem solved!

      Bam! I did it again.

    30. Re:Scary by donaldm · · Score: 1

      > Running ./configure or make or make install could cause just as large a problem.
      > Do you read through those scripts before running them?

      Ok now we are getting into compiling source code and this is not what an normal user would do, even under Unix or Linux much less MS Windows. I can and do on occasions but normally try to get an "rpm" kit (Linux) but I can compile from source.

      On Linux/Unix when I get source I always work as a non privileged user (myself). First I read the README then after setting up any parameters and/or environmental variables I run ./configure and normally make, after which I test the program(s) and then only when I am satisfied tat everything works as it is supposed to will I install the software, even then I will normally only allow installation in /usr/local.

      Do I read through the source the simple answer is no! but if I suspect anything I can. I normally only get source from reputable sites such as Freshmeat and Sourceforge, however for Linux I normally get rpm's from reputable repos. I always check the the source or rpm against it's check-sum. Basically I never install binaries from a non trusted site.

      While it is possible to get source for MS Windows programs, compiling it can be a nightmare although this depends on the skills of the person and the compiler used. In the majority of cases many people just download a "setup.exe' and run it. Of course this means that you completely trust the site and the download without any possibility of seeing the source code.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    31. Re:Scary by John+Betonschaar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually its a very effective method for both the IT team and the people who desperately need the administrative access. IT aren't required to understand every little john doe program that these people can want to install so they don't have to support them (this is very clearly communicated to these users).

      [..]

      An example of a good operator: there's a bloke over in administration who I would swear used to work in IT. He's got Open Office installed when everyone else uses Microsoft Office, he uses firefox, thunderbird and trillian for his messenger. About 500 theme packs and a few other bits of software. According to our helpdesk logging system he has only ever called once, and this was when he patched himself for the new daylight savings time last year. Everyone else had the problem as well.


      I'd say that's a pretty stupid way to 'administer' your workstations... Why can these people even install all this shit themselves? How can some bloke in administration 'patch his machine' himself? And how does making them not call support because they know they won't fix your problem help with the maintenance of your network. The only thing I can see something like that heading to is an IT support department that only answers the utterly stupid requests and hardware failures. Employees just don't bother to call them because they don't want there machine re-imaged, so they just start fooling around themselves, or ask some guy like the 'bloke from administration' to 'fix' their system. Eventually that can only and in a maintenance and security nightmare.

    32. Re:Scary by OriginalArlen · · Score: 1

      Nice attempt to evade the issue by raking up redundant matters. The crux of the problem here is that MS Word needs or provides Internet access for some of it's functions. Even if it had any buffer overflows, the problem would not be exploitable from remote systems.

      No, I'm afraid you're completely wrong. Word is not being exploited via "network-aware" functions. The exploits are Word .doc files with particular malformed elements. Nothing to do with networks except insofar as the booby-trapped documents are transmitted to the victim via email.

      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    33. Re:Scary by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Excuse me... how would such a call-back program be initiated, "Shell code". Typically, a buffer overflow causes some user data (contained in Word document) to overwrite the stack, including the return address. The function in Word where this happened would thus not "return" to its intended spot (the caller), but rather to some other place in memory. This would be chosen by the attacker in such a way as to point to some place within the document. The document would contain machine-language code for the rest of the program (presumably, it would drop an exe somewhere, and register it as a service or an autorun application).

      The trick of course is to hide the code in such a way that it doesn't appear as gibberish in Word. But that could be achieved by hiding it inside unused data of a picture or whatever.

      and how would it perform the desired function Once Word has been tricked to execute the attacker's code, that code can basically do anything it likes, as it can now directly talk to the OS, without going through whatever functionality Word provides.

      Does it not mean that Word has the provision / bug of being able to initiate external programs that can perform actions at a higher privilege Until very recently (Vista), opening network sockets didn't require any particular privileges. Word would have those privileges, even if it did not use them itself.

      Is that not a serious architectural bug in Word AND IN Windows as well? Nope, only in Word. Before Vista, all programs could connect to the network.

      I think 'the trojan' is a weak and misleading description for this program. It is an exploit for a hole in the operating system... nothing less. Nope. It's only an exploit in the application (Word). The OS at that time (spring last year) was not yet supposed to block this kind of actions.

      Frankly, I wonder how you can speculate with any accuracy regarding this problem, since the article is extremely short on meaningful data regarding the bug exploit. Learn to read between the lines ;-)
      • Although they were aware of the program's existence (and presumably did some reverse engineering on it), they were "surprised" when they saw that the program was indeed shipping sensitive documents outside ===> this implies to me that the whole behavior was not coded within the program itself. Instead, it must have been set up in a way to take commands from an outside source (on which communication they presumably eavesdropped, having reverse-engineered the trojan)
      • It's common sense that the state department is protected by some firewall ===> but once you've got some agent inside (i.e. that trojaned Word doc), it's relatively trivial to tunnel through any firewall (for instance just connect back to a Web server hosted by you, and use that to take commands / report back status). Depending on the specifics of the firewall, other methods may exist (tunneling via DNS, ICMP ping packets, IRC, MSN, etc.)
      • Microsoft addressed this as some kind of "new" vulnerability ===> which pretty much excludes macros, which (in Microsoft's mindset...) are not a vulnerability, but "by design". The most likely candidate would be a buffer overflow.
    34. Re:Scary by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Funny

      The dream of every sysadmin, to have that kind of power... Open a word file and you'll be fired. *sigh*

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    35. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it sounds like the BOFH.

    36. Re:Scary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, so that those who aren't aware know, you don't have to be a local administrator to install a network printer.

      True. But a regular windows user can't install new printer drivers.

      If the printer drivers are already on that computer, then they can connect to the network printer and print normally.

    37. Re:Scary by Vr6dub · · Score: 1

      I agree with the GP on imaging. My goal is to get the machine out back to them as fast as possible. If I can't find a reasonable solution in a reasonable amount of time I would be stupid to not image the machine. I don't know what he means about the data though. That is perfectly recoverable and can be placed right back were it was before. About the only thing the user loses is there fufu wallpaper and any other custom settings that should take all of five minutes to fix.

    38. Re:Scary by LilGuy · · Score: 1

      The head of the IT department is probably some army general's golfing buddy. His staff probably consists of college interns, family members, and other golfing buddies. Seems to be the way the government runs these days.

      It's not about what you know (dirty secrets aside) that gets you into a government job, but who you know.

      --

      You're nothing; like me.
    39. Re:Scary by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Because for the government, much more is at stake than for a simple home user. They should have followed trainings instructing them about proper security precautions.

      What training? Are you implying their security training tells them not to open documents that appear to be from co-workers and which are in the same format they normally use? If so, that explains why so little seems to get done in the government. The fault here is quite clearly standardizing on a fairly insecure and really common piece of software without disabling the most insecure aspects of that software (VB) for all the installs.

    40. Re:Scary by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Data: Storing the data on a samba share, and mapped network drives. To the GP, I would suggest that you haven't had a large corporation to support. We support a nation wide network (ok, so it's australia, we're still a nation!) with only 13 support staff including our in-house development team. The bloke in administration wants to be able to have his funky theme pack, and use OO.o, Firefox and Thunderbird. These are not standard across the organisation, and he understands this. The IT Support team is not there to fix every little problem, and as I mentioned, not every person has the PC or the administrative access on said PC. The IT Support team is there to fix the standard problems with the company standard software. The parent to this post has it right, all data is stored on a network drive any data on the local machine is considered loseable, and the users understand this.

      It's an interesting statistic that our IT department get more calls than any other department in the corporation (we're a transport company, so we get a lot of calls to arrange pickups/delivery's). The users know that they can call us, they know that we'll try to fix their problem. 15 minutes isn't a hard and fast rule but the users understand that if we feel it is necessary we will call it in.

      My userbase respects my team. They know that we work hard to keep things going for them and they are willing to wait for us to find a resolution to their problem.

      Perhaps this is unique to my company, or perhaps this is unique to Australia and the "she'll be right mate" attitude we're so famous for, or perhaps this is just the way we support our staff and the relationship with them. I leave it to each slashdotter to decide.

      Oh and we only use certain printers across the company (standards again ;) so each image comes with all the print drivers the user should ever need.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    41. Re:Scary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A properly configured windows system is as secure as a properly configured linux system (well, in this case anyway!).

      There are several reasons why this is not true, but the most important one is that while Linux vulnerabilities are reported early and fixed quickly, frequently with workarounds accompanying the announcement of the vulnerability, Windows vulnerabilities are kept quiet(er - we have all read about microsoft's "early" vulnerability announcements) and there is often no workaround. But besides that point, they take literally months to fix critical security vulnerabilities.

      Another is that while windows has a killer ACL system and actually uses it (unlike Linux, pretty much all of whose primary filesystems support ACLs, but for which there are no useful tools for manipulating them) it uses it incorrectly such that you have to be an administrator to accomplish a lot of things, and you don't have to be an Administrator to break things. Just as few will ever examine and tweak every permission on their Linux system, it is also unheard of on Windows. And even if you wanted to lock it down, lots of programs wouldn't run correctly. Including programs from Microsoft. This situation might be better on Vista, but I doubt it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    42. Re:Scary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The GP didn't explain his environment, but in a lot of larger companies you'll find things are standardised as much as is humanly possible. In IT departments, "as much as is humanly possible" quite often isn't very much, so reimaging PCs there is a PITA for all concerned.

      And if you use Linux and use UUIDs instead of device names in your fstab, then it doesn't much matter what the hardware is; the distribution will reconfigure on boot (unlike Windows, which will give you INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE if you don't have the same kind of host adapter, at the same PCI address) and find the devices by UUID.

      Not that most of us work in a Linux-only shop, but it's just one more reason Windows sucks and Linux doesn't.

      I've heard that you can change the driver on PATA systems to the legacy generic IDE driver, and that will let you boot the same install on another PATA system, which will then attempt to load a proper driver. But I've never tried it, and what with SATA and all, it probably wouldn't help most of us.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    43. Re:Scary by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The IT does not have time to run around and help everyone when he needs to connect to a printer, for example, or install an approved, free or site-licensed piece of software.

      But the user should never have to connect to a printer, or install software. Besides that being IT's job - and if they don't have time to do their job, you should hire more of them, or fire the slackers and replace them, or whatever the actual solution is - the printers to which the user might reasonably print should already be installed and the default set intelligently.

      You're right that the way Windows permissions are used is often stupid. But if you have an IT department, they SHOULD be doing these types of things. The users aren't [in most cases] trained to do them and the users shouldn't be permitted to break things.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    44. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1
      I think most of the other comments refuted you just fine, but I did want to point out one thing:

      Even if it had any buffer overflows, the problem would not be exploitable from remote systems. The article explicitly stated that the employee had received an e-mail containing a Word document. They opened the word document. This is all the attacker needs to exploit "from remote systems", if there was indeed a buffer overflow. Whatever shellcode was embedded in the file would take over and be capable of performing the network actions.
    45. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Sourceforge has been compromised at least once in recent memory, and you're still trusting that the project maintainer isn't doing something nasty.

      Anyway, the crux of the issue is that we make choices based upon convenience. We open Word documents from unknown senders because we are expecting invoices. We run ./configure and make because we trust them. Actually, the latter example would be easier to exploit, as it is explicitly running commands (whereas a Word document isn't expected to do so). The State department should not be opening documents from untrusted resources without performing some sort of verification on them, first. I don't care whether that verification is running them through antiword, opening them on computers in a DMZ, or what. Anything coming from the outside should be considered tainted until closely examined.

    46. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1

      That's one of my favorite stories :)

    47. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1

      This particular example is rather silly; however even if it were the case for the sake of argument, it's not the same: exploiting a buffer overflow in emacs as a regular user will not give you root access to the system. *sigh* I really hate this argument because it's so damned pointless. Network operations aren't privileged in any OS I happen to use (BSD, Linux, and rarely, Windows). I can make a connection to any random address without escalating, and I can even listen for connections on ports > 1024. File I/O operations aren't privileged in any OS I use. There are ACL/permission issues regarding which files I may access, but for those which I have access to, I may generally do whatever I please with the files.

      That's all a trojan needs in order to steal data. Oh yes, it'd be handy to be able to hide and cover your tracks, and that almost certainly will require high privileges, but it's not necessary in order to do nasty things. A Linux trojan could still create a spambot that took orders from IRC or the web. It could even hide (to some degree) from the user it is running as (do you type /bin/ls or do you allow your path to determine the binary which is run?).

      In the specific case of the State Dept, the intrusion was discovered very quickly. I read the article and don't recall them specifying that the privileges were escalated, and they also didn't mention whether or not the user was running as Administrator. Your assumptions aside, a malformed text file opened in emacs could have done the same damage as was mentioned in the article.
    48. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1

      The buffer overflow would presuambly allow the trojan to execute any commands that the user could execute. If the user was running as Administrator (not stated in the article) then yes, it would gain control of the machine. If not, the trojan could read any file that the user could read, connect to any site that the user could connect to, send mail through the DLLs that Outlook uses, etc.

      The article was short on details. The only thing in it that even hints at escalated privileges was the "tunnelling through the firewall" doubletalk, which, in my mind, means that it detected a proxy and used it.

    49. Re:Scary by Deadplant · · Score: 1

      Christ on a stick! Sweet Zombie Jesus that's a great phrase
    50. Re:Scary by Vr6dub · · Score: 1

      About the printers. If the drivers are already in the Windows repository you don't need admin privelages. When I am building a master image I go to install a printer and when it prompts me for the make/model I select Windows Update. That puts updated drivers into the Windows driver repository

    51. Re:Scary by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I guess what I was getting at was, could Emacs or some other word processing program be exploited to the same level that word can by default given the same bugs? It would appear to me that if this was the case, then there would be more self replicating and infecting virus' for linux and mac.

      Maybe your answer was already a Yes it can. But it seems a little windows-office centric with the outlook reference so I ma asking to clarify. I would think the office integration with all the other programs bundled and the OS would make it more vulnerable or at least easier to make this type of attack happen. Of course this might be just a urban legend type rumor of the risks. I could be entirely wrong.

    52. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Ok now we are getting into compiling source code and this is not what an normal user would do, even under Unix or Linux much less MS Windows. I can and do on occasions but normally try to get an "rpm" kit (Linux) but I can compile from source. I was trying to illustrate a point. Rather than suggesting that these are vectors of attack that we should be wary of, I was pointing out that even Linux/Unix power users put a lot of trust in things. It's just just a concern for people using Microsoft--though blackhats are more likely to target Microsoft due to the marketshare.

      On Linux/Unix when I get source I always work as a non privileged user (myself). First I read the README then after setting up any parameters and/or environmental variables I run ./configure and normally make, after which I test the program(s) and then only when I am satisfied tat everything works as it is supposed to will I install the software, even then I will normally only allow installation in /usr/local. How do you enforce that last restriction? Using the very Makefile that you didn't read through? And since you're writing to that directory, I imagine you're running that last bit with sudo?

      I normally only get source from reputable sites such as Freshmeat and Sourceforge, however for Linux I normally get rpm's from reputable repos. I always check the the source or rpm against it's check-sum. Basically I never install binaries from a non trusted site. And for most people, yeah, that's very reasonable. We have neither the time nor inclination in most cases (and for many people the capability, either!) to audit the files. But that's the point, really. Someone could compromise the repo or the account of the project maintainer at Sourceforge. Someone could try a long con of gaining trust before putting in a malicious, if innocuous, bug in their 70th submitted patch.

      And just because anyone can look at the code doesn't mean that anyone does.

      While it is possible to get source for MS Windows programs, compiling it can be a nightmare although this depends on the skills of the person and the compiler used. In the majority of cases many people just download a "setup.exe' and run it. Of course this means that you completely trust the site and the download without any possibility of seeing the source code. But people do this with Linux and OSS all the time. They feel safer knowing that the code could be audited, but in reality, how often does anyone audit the code?
    53. Re:Scary by jimicus · · Score: 1

      And if you use Linux and use UUIDs instead of device names in your fstab, then it doesn't much matter what the hardware is; the distribution will reconfigure on boot (unlike Windows, which will give you INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE if you don't have the same kind of host adapter, at the same PCI address) and find the devices by UUID.

      Not that most of us work in a Linux-only shop, but it's just one more reason Windows sucks and Linux doesn't.


      I had to think for a minute before I figured out what you were talking about. Then I realised you meant deploying the same image to various types of hardware.

      This is a field in which Windows has historically sucked a helluva lot. Various tools have been provided to try and work around it (some by Microsoft, some by third-party vendors), but most of the tools I've found have introduced as many problems as they've solved.

      I know Symantec Ghost claims to solve it but the trial version doesn't allow you to test any of those features, the only way you find out how well they work is after you've handed the money over. TBH, I haven't dedicated much time to solving the problem in XP and I've never even gone near trying it in Vista so it may be completely solved.

      The alternative - and one I have seen done in larger companies - is to have one image per hardware model and standardise desktop hardware to a particular make and model. Of course, when the model is updated you need a new image, which sucks. And this method only really works when you're large enough and have a high enough turnover to buy many PCs at a time every couple of months. If you're only buying a dozen PCs a year it's fairly lousy.

    54. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1
      I think that Emacs could be exploited to the same degree. There are a number of reasons that I don't think it has been.

      • Windows has more users, and less clueful users, so exploits will stick around.
      • There's a huge repository of exploit code for Windows. HUGE. Check out Metasploit sometime, if you don't already know about it.
      • Windows machines are less likely to be mission-critical, and so less likely to be monitored to the same degree as Unix machines.
      • Windows monoculture means that the shellcode is easier to get working. A slightly different kernel or libc version on Linux would render the exploit moot.


      My mention of Outlook was because there's some functionality in Windows to send mail using the settings you've set up in Outlook, including username/password, proxy, port, server, etc. This means that a spambot can still send spam, even if port 25 is ACL'd off or the remote SMTP server requires authentication (assuming the user saved their password). Yeah, it's a Windows thing in this case, but mere exploitation of the system is not.

    55. Re:Scary by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      was stupid for opening an email with out knowing the source. If it appeared legit and it was just a plain word doc with not VB scripts then it's not all his/her fault

      I'd say it was, since I consider everyone who leaves Word and Excel to run scripts automatically a security threat.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    56. Re:Scary by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      IT aren't required to understand every little john doe program that these people can want to install so they don't have to support them

      Geez, it's not about stupid apps, it's about users' data. If someone came to me a morning saying my hd was re-imaged because of this and that I'd tear his limbs off without much thinking. Yes, backups and stuff, alright, still, the limbs are gone :P

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    57. Re:Scary by jafac · · Score: 1

      How can you tell a few thousand of people not to open word document attachment?

      Write a memo in MS Word, and send it out as an attachment to an Outlook email! What, were you born last-century or something?

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    58. Re:Scary by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

      Runing ./configure or make or make install could cause just as large a problem. Do you read through those scripts before running them?

      Yes, I do. I've even got into arguments with a former coworker who insisted that scripts/applications should do nothing without a command switch to make them run. His argument was that you might not know what it was or did. My argument was that you shouldn't just be running things you don't know about, that you should look at the docs or the script.

      Wait, you don't read them? Here I've got some software for you to install, trust me.

      There could be one in emacs right now, triggered by reading a file into the buffer.

      Ok, the onus is on you to demonstrate how a buffer overflow in emacs that occurs via loading a text file into a buffer can trigger the kind of effect reported via Word. Go ahead, I dare you, I triple dog dare yah! It's curious how people like to post "Yeah well it could happen just as easily in Open Source!" and then they don't prove it. Even though they have the source code, which is presumably more than those who exploit MS Office, to examine.

      Since Microsoft patched it, it was probably either something that autoran or an overflow.

      Or they embedded a regex or other code to look for the exact overflow and drop it instead of eliminating the overflow. Not that they've done anything like that before, right?

      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
    59. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Wait, you don't read them? Here I've got some software for you to install, trust me. I do read them, but almost no one else seems to. I've posed that question hundreds of times to various people, and you're probably the fourth or fifth one to actually claim to do so much as even spot-check the files.

      Ok, the onus is on you to demonstrate how a buffer overflow in emacs that occurs via loading a text file into a buffer can trigger the kind of effect reported via Word. Unless you're looking for an actual overrun in Emacs, what you're asking for isn't hard. From the article:
      By opening the document, the employee activated hidden software commands establishing what Reid described as backdoor communications with the hackers.

      I take "hidden commands" to mean shellcode. The other possibility, a macro that auto-runs, wouldn't really require a patch to disable--it would only require changing a preference. Also, I think auto-running macros have been disabled by default for years, but I don't have anything to back that statement up.

      So now we look at the payload--establishing backdoor communications with the hackers. How is this difficult? Trojans have been capable of doing this for years. It doesn't take much to start a daemon that queries a control server, listen for commands, and execute them.

      The only thing left is the actual buffer overflow. If you're actually suggesting that Emacs is incapable of having a buffer overflow, that's an assertion I'd like to see a basis for, and is largely irrelevant since it was just an example. If you're asserting that OSS cannot have buffer overflows, then you're truly delusional. I was refuting the statement, "The fact that a simple Word document can cause such a big problem is really sad." Any exploitable buffer overflow is going to rely, in some way, on malicious user input. Any program which reads user input should be wary of the buffer overflow. This includes text editors.

      Or they embedded a regex or other code to look for the exact overflow and drop it instead of eliminating the overflow. Not that they've done anything like that before, right? Your attitude seems a bit hostile. I'm not trying to make any statement about the validity or correctness of their patch. That there was a patch implies that there was, indeed, something to patch. I used that plus other statements from the article to conclude that it was probably one of two vulnerabilities.

      I don't know if you're a Linux zealot, a Microsoft hater, or both, but there's room for civility in discussions like this. I'm typing this from my personal notebook which only runs Linux. I don't use Windows for anything more than I am required by my job. That said, I recognize that security isn't just about what OS you run. I love Linux, but I also recognize the fact that there have been vulnerabilities in FOSS, and you can never forget the human factor (a trojan'd binary/script in Linux could do as much damage as one on Windows).
    60. Re:Scary by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well, I know windows uses Mapi calls and such for communication between programs. I'm going to assume KDE or Gnome have similar messaging (pipes?) features. I just didn't think it would be as easy to exploit.

      Thanks for the reply. It opens my understanding on the subject. It makes sense that it could be similar. I thought the difference in how Emacs and other software were oriented made them less susceptible to this type of attack. But using the messaging subsystem and all to complete the operations makes sense that it could happen there just as well. I don't really understand the workings of what I just talked about, I'm only going from what I have gathered from support issues that needed to be resolved. So I could be entirely wrong on my understanding of it.

      It also seems the placing a confirm dialog in outlook that forces the user to press ok every time a message is sent without sending directly from inside the mail program using a traditional compose and send method, could alert the user of potential malware if it all the sudden pops up a message asking you to confirm the sending of a message when your not doing anything related to sending an email. I haven't used outlook in two or three years so it might already do this.

    61. Re:Scary by John+Betonschaar · · Score: 1

      To the GP, I would suggest that you haven't had a large corporation to support. We support a nation wide network (ok, so it's australia, we're still a nation!) with only 13 support staff including our in-house development team.

      I don't work in IT support, so you're right about me not having had to support a nation-wide network. I did, however, work as an IT Engineer for a very large multinational (Philips). Although this might not be true for all Philips' divisions or countries, the IT and network over there was maintained completely different from the way you do it. No-one has administrator right, no-one can do even as much as change the display resolution, install custom crap that goes outside the user folders etc. People *could* install software themselves, but only through an automated & fenced-off application that let you pick the tool you needed and then installed it without any user interaction. The actual version, install location (local or network), default settings etc. etc. were all set by IT support.

      This approach worked very well. In the time I worked there I never had any problems with my system or the software on it, and none of my colleages ever really had. The systems where all clean and uniform, which IMHO is the way to go. Customizing your workstation is something you should do at home...

    62. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Well, I know windows uses Mapi calls and such for communication between programs. Yes, I couldn't remember the name for it, but I believe that is correct. The standard communication and controls (text boxes, list boxes, etc.) are definitely one piece of the puzzle that is the history of Windows security flaws.

      Note: most of the below is speculation intermixed with facts.
      When Windows was originally created, there wasn't much thought given to security in this case--and probably with good reason. Back then, the issues for home PCs were largely viruses and trojans, not the self-spreading worms that we see today. The massive interconnectedness of today's computers probably wasn't expected, and viruses/trojans passed on floppy disk don't need a buffer overflow to spread.

      So time passes, and Microsoft chooses to maintain as much backwards compatibility as possible between revisions of Windows...the Internet starts creeping up...Windows uses lots and lots of insecure, legacy code in newer versions, and all of a sudden, broadband starts becoming the norm, and every Windows computer on the Internet becomes a new vector of infection. All those controls which used to be in non-connected programs get tossed into Internet Explorer, and blammo--security hell. A few revisions later, and you get Windows XP SP2, which contained some measure of protection, and then Vista, in which much of the underlying support code got rewritten. We'll see whether it's actually all that it's cracked up to be, I guess.
    63. Re:Scary by donaldm · · Score: 1

      Excellent informative reply.

      In many ways people have to eventually have some measure of trust for the application they download be it Linux or Unix or even MS Windows. It is very possible to provide an rpm with a valid checksum that contains a nasty surprise however if you compile from source it is normally safer because if you have the knowledge or if you know someone who can you can vet the source but unfortunately this is normally after the fact.

      While most people will not look at the source there are a significant few who can and will if there is any suspicion of foul play and many of these people do know how to contact the appropriate authorities. Sill it is most unlikely a black-hat would give out source with a payload since it is too easy to get found out and possibly traced.

      For a cracker a binary is much safer and it is even more safer if delivered by a bot or email. Putting malicious code in a repository is risky for the cracker but this does not mean that they won't do it so for the person who downloads a binary from a site the risk even though small is always there.

      Rating the risk, any down loadable program source would be the safest followed by a reputable site for rpm's with access to source or even "*.exe" files with source, however you always take a chance downloading binaries be it rpm's or "*.exe" even with checksums. Binaries without a checksum should always be suspect but most people are sometimes to trusting, still if you want to download "flash", "media player", a repo update or even an Microsoft update you have to have some degree of trust that the site is not going to screw you.

      From personal experience you can download an rpm and load it into your personal directory however you can do the same with a "*.exe" file if the install program allows you. What makes MS Windows a problem is that while it can be reasonably a secure environment if you know what you are doing most people don't and set themselves up with administrator privileges so that a bad program will cause enormous problems. I have even seen this done on Linux and Unix platforms by people who should know better which is quite worrying, since this could be a portent of things to come. User education is vital here.

      As to sudo I have found that unless this managed carefully it can be a major security hole. I personally use "su -" since I am the System Admin and then exit when I have finished.

      With regard to a Makefile you don't actually need to read through it especially if it is auto generated by ./configure. You should see the one generated by "imake" (1000+ lines). What you need to be aware of is what will be installed and where it is going to be installed and this is very easy to do with "make -n install" or just try to install as your non-privileged self (small risk here). Baring that you can always search for "install" in the Makefile and see what it does. It is important to have some Unix programing knowledge here otherwise your security can easily be compromised.

      This is not to say I can not be compromised it just means there is a less likely chance of me being compromised, of course I do have to assume the source code I have compiled does not have something nasty since I am not going to actually look at thousands of lines of code. I can debug code in the case of failure but it is much easier to look for something that works and that is normally an rpm in the case of Linux or a "*.exe" in the case of MS Windows. Of course this does increase the risk.

      To sum up the most important thing a user can do do to protect themselves is to become more educated with regard to using a computer be it MS Windows, Linux or Unix (note a Mac is Unix). But this does not mean everyone should become a Senior Systems Admin but they should become aware of the basics. Unless this occurs mall-ware is only going to get worse as crackers look to social engineering (it is actually easier to do this) for their exploits. No one even myself can honestly say they can avoid all explo

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    64. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1
      All too true. The matter of trust is certainly important, because without it, you might as well not use a computer! There are certainly different levels of trust, though, and for someone in a security-sensitive government office, the trust bar really needs to be raised. These are people who absolutely should audit every piece of code that touches the computer.

      Sill it is most unlikely a black-hat would give out source with a payload since it is too easy to get found out and possibly traced. It depends upon what they have to gain, their location, etc. A foreign hacker attempting to compromise government security might have less to fear. Of course, this would not be a commonly used tactic--even a foreign hacker would never be trusted again, and would have to change his identity and build up trust all over again.

      For a cracker a binary is much safer and it is even more safer if delivered by a bot or email. Putting malicious code in a repository is risky for the cracker but this does not mean that they won't do it so for the person who downloads a binary from a site the risk even though small is always there. Managing risk is hard. Certainly, unless I was expecting it, I would never run code received through e-mail without examining it. Compromising the repo? Harder, but not impossible.

      What makes MS Windows a problem is that while it can be reasonably a secure environment if you know what you are doing most people don't and set themselves up with administrator privileges so that a bad program will cause enormous problems. Though you can do a lot of bad things without administrator privileges. In some cases, you might need escalated privileges in order to spoof security protocols (Vista's security) or create hooks to capture encrypted traffic (we've seen some spyware do this to watch https traffic), but in general, a non-admin process can read any file that the user can read and can open network connections to send that information back to the enemy. It could also spam and try to infect other machines through many different network-based vectors. Administrator-by-default is bad, but I don't think that it's the gaping security hole that everyone makes it out to be.

      To sum up the most important thing a user can do do to protect themselves is to become more educated with regard to using a computer I absolutely, 100% agree. And I'm not looking for everyone to become an expert, but they just shouldn't trust everything that comes across that wire. This goes double for people in security-sensitive positions.

      Thanks for the interesting discussion!
    65. Re:Scary by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

      Unless you're looking for an actual overrun in Emacs, what you're asking for isn't hard.

      Well it is what you said, so that's what I'd ask for. So if it isn't hard we can expect your evidence/proof soon then, right? Are you saying finding an actual overrun in Emacs is hard? And what about tying that overrun into a cascading situation, is that hard to? I don't think it unreasonable that you be asked to provide that which you say is easy. Rather than branch out I stuck to exactly what you claimed. You say it's easy, so by all means provide it.

      The other possibility, a macro that auto-runs, wouldn't really require a patch to disable--it would only require changing a preference.

      Only on the assumption that all macros are configurable preferences. It is not inconceivable that there are macros that are not a preference check box.

      The only thing left is the actual buffer overflow. If you're actually suggesting that Emacs is incapable of having a buffer overflow, that's an assertion I'd like to see a basis for, and is largely irrelevant since it was just an example.

      I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. What I am saying outright is that we see a lot of people say it would be so easy to do in a given OSS program, but we never see them prove their statement. That said, you did (intentionally or not) follow the next argument .. "well it was just an example". Examples of hypothetical situations don't prove the hypothesis.

      That said, buffer overflows are not some magic incantation that programmers can not prevent. There are many methods that can severely limit ht epossibility of overflow exploits, even if we can not eliminate them entirely. Further there are various abilities and models available to Linux systems such as PaX, SSp, libsafe, exec-shield, grsecurity, etc. that further limit the ability to exploit a given buffer overflow in a piece of software such as Emacs (or open office, Kmail, Mozilla, Evolution, Thunderbird...). it may well be that the developers of Emacs have actually made your hypothetical exploit not possible.

      Your attitude seems a bit hostile. I'm not trying to make any statement about the validity or correctness of their patch.

      Any hostility is imagined on your part.

      That there was a patch implies that there was, indeed, something to patch.
      However, what the patch actually fixed is not stated, and thus could well mean anything. We have seen patches prior that looked for the overflow data and rather than fix the overflow they simply dropped it on the floor. This was shown by the next variant of said worm simply changing the string it used to cause it and nothing else - and being just as successful as the first.

      I don't know if you're a Linux zealot, a Microsoft hater, or both, but there's room for civility in discussions like this.
      I'm neither, and I've been civil. I've even been humorous. Perhaps you should stop looking for incivility in others, or at least grant that statements of fact or challenges to assertions that are not backed up does not constitute hostility yor incivility.

      I love Linux, but I also recognize the fact that there have been vulnerabilities in FOSS, and you can never forget the human factor (a trojan'd binary/script in Linux could do as much damage as one on Windows).

      There are many degrees of vulnerability. There is a vast difference between the "small" vulnerabilities, and large, self-replicating ones. Not all vulnerabilities are created equal. Furthermore, your assertion that "a trojan'd binary/script could do as much damage" is heavily reliant upon assumptions that are most often not valid. For example, Linux systems do not have/use the same level of integration between components as Windows systems do. The majority of vulnerabilities such as the one in the article are entirely dependent on a cascade of failures due to the tight integration on Windows. Absent that you've just lost a key component of the requirements for cascadi

      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
    66. Re:Scary by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Yes, you're right, you win. Good day to you.

  5. (Insert Troll Here) by WhiteWolf666 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Queue the legion of Microsoft apologists, saying things like:
    a) It's only because MS Office has the largest market share, this could of happened to any office suite!
    b) It's not a big deal, obviously the state department's IT department is incompetent.
    c) Damn Hackers, always trying to ruin a good thing!
    d) Macs run on Intel processors now, so they're vulnerable too!
    e) This is probably because the NSA sponsors SELinux.
    f) In Soviet Russia, MS Office hacks YOU!

    Did I miss any?

    --
    WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
    1. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      On the flip side, it would be very interesting to find out whether M$ already knew about this fault, and didn't warn anybody about it, to keep in line with the 'marketing and profits first', 'security and customer costs last' policy, remember in the M$=B$ universe, faults do not exist if they are not publicly declared and they couldn't be bothered patching them.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    2. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by jkrise · · Score: 1

      Did I miss any?

      Yes. Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of MS shills and Apple fanboys... oh wait! Isn't that Slashdot already?

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    3. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by Beefchief · · Score: 5, Funny

      g) Cue the Grammar Nazi that points out the difference between "cue" and "queue" :)

    4. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by necrostopheles · · Score: 2, Funny

      h) And the one that points out could of != could've

      The first is a phrase that doesn't make sense, and the second is a contraction of "could have".

    5. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by Comatose51 · · Score: 1

      Damn dude, leave some for the rest of us. Now how am I going to get my comment modded up?

      --
      EvilCON - Made Famous by /.
    6. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by lilomar · · Score: 1

      ---snip---
      cue 2 (kyoo) n. 1. A signal, such as a word or action, used to prompt another event in a performance, such as an actor's speech or entrance, a change in lighting, or a sound effect.
      ---snip---
      from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cue

      --
      The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
    7. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by ouzel · · Score: 1

      Someone else actually understands that distinction?! Hallelujah! I felt so alone.

    8. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by jimicus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You joke, but I'd point out that a government department (particularly in a large, powerful country like the US) will always be a very attractive target - particularly for blackhats who know what they're doing rather than script kiddies.

      Yet the same government has politicians who are nobbled by Microsoft into saying that open source is less secure because anyone can look through it for security bugs.

    9. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      Did I miss any?
      It's "could have" or "could've", not "could of", you insensitive clod!
      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    10. Re:(Insert Troll Here) by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

      I dunno, he could be wanting them to queue up .. as in get them to line up and get ready to be operate on a not-yet-seen cue. Either word would work. If only he could have been using MS Word to post, it could have made grammar corrections for him.

      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
  6. It proves a set of closed vs open source arguments by postbigbang · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) the attack, once found, would have a bevy of coders working on it (we hope, of course)

    2) the testing and regression doesn't have the dependency matrix that Word does, and it's likely that if there was a link, it could be both understood and remedied quickly thru an open code supply chain

    3) multiple hackers (oops, I mean coders) would likely offer variances of a patch, of which perhaps several would/could be part of the subsequent 'patched' tree

    4) eight weeks is a travesty, and that the State Department of the United States of America didn't have an IDF that could detect the abberant traffic is just plain malfeasant. Heads should roll.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  7. The Commies are Coming !! The Commies are Coming ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



    The Commies are Coming !! The Commies are Coming !!

    (bell done rung three times ... come by da-net) /Mah image word is prophecy/

  8. Good Times by QuantumG · · Score: 2

    Ahh, I remember the days when a virus spreading via email was just a silly joke that everyone knew was impossible.

    Thanks Microsoft.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Good Times by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Yea, those were the days. And back then, Hackers scared a lot more people too.

      I think this is a direct link to the article/picture

  9. Only fooling themselves by drago177 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At first, the hackers did not immediately appear to try stealing any U.S. government data. Authorities quietly monitored the hackers' activity, then tripwires severed Internet connections

    If you find evidence of a break-in, its possible the attackers are also connecting in a way you haven't yet detected. Hope they know what they're doing. Given their reputation, I doubt it.

  10. Strong Bad had it right when he said... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the system is down.

    On a more serious note, FTA, "By opening the document, the employee activated hidden software commands establishing what Reid described as backdoor communications with the hackers."

    This is why Word document software should not automatically run a scripting engine. Unfortunately, the article does not say what version of Word or Office were used. Should we assume all are suspectible?

  11. Moo by Chacham · · Score: 1

    Investigators found multiple instances of infection, informed Microsoft, then had to sever internet connectivity to avoid leaking too much data!"

    Not only were they infected, they were infected multiple times! And then, completely delerious, they thought Microsoft was informed. And then--horror of horrors--they has to amputate their internet connection before they leaked.

    Normally, i like the sob story, but this is TMD, Too Much Data.

  12. Re:It proves a set of closed vs open source argume by beakerMeep · · Score: 1
    I'm not sure what IDF means but from TFA:

    The State Department detected its first break-in immediately, Reid said, and worked to block suspected communications with the hackers. But during its investigation, it discovered new break-ins at its Washington headquarters and other offices in eastern Asia, Reid said. At first, the hackers did not immediately appear to try stealing any U.S. government data. Authorities quietly monitored the hackers' activity, then tripwires severed Internet connections in the region after a limited amount of data was detected being stolen, Reid said.
    --
    meep
  13. The airlock is closing... by djupedal · · Score: 3, Funny

    "...then had to sever internet connectivity to avoid leaking too much data!"

    "Cap'n, we're having a wee bit 'o trouble in IT - we're leaking data down here like no one's bloody business - we may have to sever communications!"

    "Scottie - is it really that bad...? Isn't there some alternative that will buy us more time??!! I need more time, dammit man!"

    "Cap'n, I'm only a Star Fleet Engineer, not the Queen's magician..."

    "Well, Engineer...see if you can pull a rabbit out of your ass and buy me five more minutes before you cut us off. That's all we need to make the jump, and after that you can cut your nuts off for all I care!"

    "Aye, Cap'n...do me best - one shit-stained rabbit, com'n up - IT out!"

    1. Re:The airlock is closing... by wordsnyc · · Score: 1

      That makes a lot more sense if the rabbit says "Yes."

      --
      Sent from the iPad I found in your car.
  14. OS and Apps must be seperate! by jhfry · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Anytime that applications are allowed to access files or capabilities beyond what is absolutely necessary to perform their function, there is a risk.

    Microsoft has created some of the most powerful office tools by leveraging tons of existing code that wasn't exactly designed for the intended purpose.

    For example, I love VBA (visual basic for applications)... it can make it very easy to turn a basic spreadsheet into a pseudo application. The problem is, VBA has too many ties to the OS.

    That's where "sane" operating systems differ. User space and the OS are heavily separated, in fact, user space for each user is separated from other users, and almost all services run as a unique user. This intentional separation provides very robust security, and is absolutely necessary to creating a secure system.

    I cannot blame anyone but MS for this... and not the MS Word or Office team. If the OS were properly designed so that user space applications were properly separated, issues such as this would not exist.

    The best part is how long in coming the patch for this is... if these systems were running anything open source, a preliminary patch would be made in a matter of hours (assuming that it was posted immediately to an appropriate mailing list or IRC channel).

    I can't wait until the saying is changed to "Everybody is getting fired for buying Microsoft"... because, IMO, any IT manager who gives a shit about the "INFORMATION" portion of their title should be fired for trusting it to MS's proprietary bullshit!

    --
    Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    1. Re:OS and Apps must be seperate! by goofballs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's where "sane" operating systems differ. User space and the OS are heavily separated, in fact, user space for each user is separated from other users, and almost all services run as a unique user. This intentional separation provides very robust security, and is absolutely necessary to creating a secure system. I cannot blame anyone but MS for this... and not the MS Word or Office team. If the OS were properly designed so that user space applications were properly separated, issues such as this would not exist. this has nothing to do with separation of the user space- the app is run as a unique user, and the information stolen is that available to that user. there is no suggestion that privilege escalation occured in this attack.
    2. Re:OS and Apps must be seperate! by jhfry · · Score: 1

      The article was indeed light on details... but it suggested that once they had gained access to ONE machine via this document they were able to access data on the US Government network (I am assuming global network here). This tells me that whatever this document allowed granted the cracker access to more than what was on this user's computer, or even what this user was allowed to access.

      I cannot claim for certain that a similar exploit couldn't be done in a more secure, by design, operating system. However I suspect that it would be unlikely that you would find an operating system like Linux, OSX, Solaris, or AIX running a word processor application (or any productivity application) that can install a rootkit or other package allowing access to the local system (beyond the current user's rights), let alone the network. Such a design would be "insecure" and not tolerated by the community.

      It's a different mindset. Windows tries to cater to everyone, unfortunately "everyone" includes the crackers of the world. To make a secure system, you must be willing to limit the capabilities of your developers and users. All security comes at a cost. Most software is willing to accept that cost, and limit or inconvenience the user to some degree, in exchange for added security. It's a balancing act, too much security and the user cannot achieve their goals... not enough and it doesn't matter 'cuz the system is pwned!

      I feel that in many ways, the Windows OS developers have leaned a bit too far toward user freedom... now users expect it, and are not satisfied when their OS limits them. Until recently, most users were annoyed if they needed to enter a password to use their machine.

      I still remember my girlfriends words when I installed our new Mac. "Do I have to have a password? It's annoying to have to type it in all the time.". I simply said "no, you don't need one. But I will need to restrict your account from doing much of anything on the computer, and you won't be able to access any music or photos I share on the server." She relented... and know what, once I explained why, she actually appreciated the need for a secure user account and I haven't heard one complaint since. In fact, I finally got her to stop using the same password for every site, and she doesn't let the browser save her passwords anymore either.

      --
      Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    3. Re:OS and Apps must be seperate! by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I cannot claim for certain that a similar exploit couldn't be done in a more secure, by design, operating system. However I suspect that it would be unlikely that you would find an operating system like Linux, OSX, Solaris, or AIX running a word processor application (or any productivity application) that can install a rootkit or other package allowing access to the local system (beyond the current user's rights), let alone the network. Such a design would be "insecure" and not tolerated by the community.

      There have been plenty of privilege escalation vulnerabilities in all sorts of obscure packages in Linux.

      And a local privilege escalation vulnerability is arguably just some pretty packaging and an email away from being a remote privilege escalation vulnerability.

      Even without that, there's a strong chance that some sort of single sign-on will be present in a large system. Think Kerberos/LDAP or Active Directory. Now, if the computer's running an app as a particular user, it can do anything that user can - and that could include all sorts of interesting things like "access the latest report on the situation in Iraq".

      In the real world, the chances are you'd get hundreds of documents back about inconsequential spending in departments you neither know nor care about. But you only need to get lucky once.

  15. Microsoft Logic by vertigoCiel · · Score: 1
    Gotta love it. From TFA:

    "If we release a security update that is not adequately tested, we could potentially put customers at risk."

    I'm sorry, were the customers not at risk before? I don't understand. How could a security update expose more security holes, unless it were coded by a dumbass?
    Oh, wait...
    1. Re:Microsoft Logic by neil.orourke · · Score: 3, Informative

      It doesn't necessarily mean that there are more security holes. Remember the Win2K patch that killed Compaq desktops with a particular network card?

  16. Opendoc by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well its a good thing the government standardizes on opendoc and does not cater to special interests like Microsofts lobbiests when making requirements for secure workstations.

  17. Microsoft is Like Internet of Old by tymbow · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I had an interesting discussion the other day with some colleagues and we came to a consensus that many Microsoft products were and still are, or at least inherit, a design philosophy similar to that of the Internet when it was first created. The Internet was built on a basis of implied trust and as we have seen in present times, particularly with e-mail and the SMTP protocol, this model of design is a poor foundation. To counter these issues we need to design more and cleverer countermeasures in an escalating war with miscreants; a parallel we also see in Microsoft products with never ending cycle of Anti-Virus and Anti-Spyware updates and patches required to deal with both programming flaws are poor design choices that assumed trust (recall the ILOVEYOU debacle). The real kicker is that you could argue that many of the problems we now face on the Internet are largely due to poor design in Microsoft software which as I noted parallels an original design methodology of the Internet. We've had several articles earlier in the week pushing a view that the Internet needed to be re-architected due to its flawed security design (although I think it's more about commerce and control but I won't go there for now) - is it not also time to re-architect Microsoft and their approach to developing products? Would we even have these problems if not for Microsoft? My two cents.

    1. Re:Microsoft is Like Internet of Old by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1


      The Internet became robust because the code was (is) public and everyone could contribute.

      MS software will never become rebost becuase the code is secret and no one can even look, let alone contribute.

      The Internet with non-MS software is quite robust and stable. I get along just fine with no MS software.

  18. So, I take it that they haven't found that... by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    ...rigged Excel spread sheet that wires money to ElQaida yet... ;)

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  19. Must suck to be Lenovo... by cunina · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...knowing that your products were banned from the State Department for some theoretical and highly unlikely exploit, while Microsoft Word continues to be used there despite a documented (no pun intended) security breach attributed to it.

  20. open formats alone won't save you by secPM_MS · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It is easy to condemn Microsoft for the vulnerabilities in Office, but the root issue here is the rich functionality in modern office suites. Office came to dominate the market by its rich functionality, tight integration, and ease of use. The addition of sophisticated scripting functionality allowed organizations or integrators to add yet more value. It also created a fertile environment for malicious attackers. As long as the Windows operating system was easily broken, nobody bothered much with attacking the application stack. As Microsoft has raised the bar in the attack resistance of the operating system, attacks have moved up the stack. I was not at MS at the time, but I do not believe that security has at the top of the stack for Office 11 and earlier. I do know that substantial hardening was performed on Office 12, which I believe is now marketed as Office 2007. From my point of view, Office 12 should be viewed as a very important security update to Office 11. I know, they changed the UI. I wish they had left a "classic" option. They didn't. But Office 12 is far less vulnerable than Office 11.

    In their determination to sucessfully match Office's rich features, Open Office has acquired similar vulnerabilities. One evaluation I saw some time ago concluded that Open Office was likely to be more vulnerable than Office.

    If you want to be secure, run software that does what you need, and NO MORE! Rich functionality and extensibility are the attack points. Not many people want to restrict themelves to txt files or filtered html, let alone edit any longer with editors such as vi or microemacs. Due to their extensibility, pdf and postscript are suspect in the eyes of the truly paranoid, let alone the complex modern formats.

    1. Re:open formats alone won't save you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the problem is that Microsoft doesn't know shit about security in their goddamn applications. They have a longstanding, proven track record of massive holes in their software that proves this.

      State Dept: use Linux and OpenOffice.org. If you don't learn from this mistake, you are all a bunch of idiots. Well, I already believe you're idiots, but that's beside the point.

    2. Re:open formats alone won't save you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No offense intended, but your post sounds like a marketing spiel - hard to read and saying very little.

    3. Re:open formats alone won't save you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but the root issue here is the rich functionality in modern office suites

      Ha ha ha. TeX was essentialy completed in 1979, and Word *still*
      can't produce anything that looks as good.

      Word is a steaming turd promoted by the typographically incompetent
      and well-paid shills.

    4. Re:open formats alone won't save you by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      Real web browsers handle scripting languages with fewer problems than Office. So does the Java virtual machine. Office is just poorly written without any real security or privilege separation in mind.

      Due to their extensibility, pdf and postscript are suspect in the eyes of the truly paranoid, let alone the complex modern formats.

      Postscript is a Turing complete programming language, but I haven't heard of many exploits in ghostscript or PS printers. Clearly there's just something broken at Microsoft. It's possible to build secure interpreters for general scripting languages, and Microsoft just hasn't been able to accomplish it with Office. They managed to write .NET, but my guess is it's a vastly different (in terms of technical competence) team than the one working on Office.

  21. It was a Nuklear attack? by infonography · · Score: 0, Troll

    I really think it's overdue to wipe away to cronies and have a professional semi-nonpartisan bureaucracy.

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
  22. How the **** is this insightfull? by Mr+44 · · Score: 3, Informative
    Wheres the -1, Misinformed?

    That's where "sane" operating systems differ. User space and the OS are heavily separated, in fact, user space for each user is separated from other users, and almost all services run as a unique user. This intentional separation provides very robust security, and is absolutely necessary to creating a secure system.

    Are you implying that is not the case with windows??? A quick look in task manager shows some system processes running as your user account, some as "LOCAL SERVICE", some as "NETWORK SERVICE", (both restricted accounts) and some as "SYSTEM" (=root). And a quick look at top on my linux box sure doesn't show "almost all" services running as unique users.

    And sure, its up to the administrator to configure it so the user account is not an administrator, but I've never seen a government system where a domain user account has local admin rights.

    In the specific case of this vulnerability, the word document was able to run arbitrary executable code as the current user. This presumably allowed access to network shares, and then sending the data back out (via HTTP most likely). That sort of thing would be possible with any operating system.

    The only area you are correct in is that on linux the flaw could be patched quicker... But in a large organization, it likely could still be preferable to block the exploit with IDS/firewall rules than by rolling out a client patch...
  23. Well in my office by th3rmite · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most people who are not familiar with IT in the US Government have NO IDEA how dependent even the military is on MS products. Think MS based virii, worms and exploits aren't on classified networks? Networks that don't even share a common hardware link to the internet...

    1. Re:Well in my office by glwtta · · Score: 1

      Sigh, for the billionth freaking time - there is no such word as "virius".

      --
      sic transit gloria mundi
  24. Emacs by Jordan+Catalano · · Score: 1

    Off-topic, but...

    Richard Stallman is giving his "Copyright and Community in the age of computer networks" lecture at Johns Hopkins tomorrow morning. For anyone who's heard it already: worth taking an early lunch to go hear? How long does it run?

  25. oh good lord by Essequemodeia · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Thank god there are no file sharing users/security risks at the State Department. It's better to populate an important governmental agency with drones as opposed to internet savvy employees who can't assist network administrators by giving them a slightly more informed heads up regarding odd or bizarre 'puter goings-ons. I hate my own sarcasm. Hate it.

    1. Re:oh good lord by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suggest you read the article, in which Reid outlines what the chain of events was and what the reactions to each step were. Then perhaps when *you* ever deal with 3,000+ machines in over 20 countries and 5 timezones from your's, which is at least half a *day* behind the infected IT shops, you might have a little bit better picture of why things were apparently done the way they were.

      It's far easier to condemn than it is to understand.

  26. Word 2007 Flaws Are Features, Not Bugs by someone1234 · · Score: 1

    According to MS, this is the normal course of operation.

    --
    Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
    1. Re: Word 2007 Flaws Are Features, Not Bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those aren't open infected sores on her they are some of her better features.

  27. slight modification to your proposal by drachenstern · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One of our clients email is setup so that if you send them an attachment without a particular second attachment, their firewall drops the attachment and only gives you the file. Lemme spell it out for the slow students in the class.

    A customer needed an instruction for how to remove the lid from a specialty box. (for field support purposes, the field guys could be morons, so better to have something from the vendor)

    He calls me and asks for it, I whip something up in PDF and shoot it over to him.

    He calls me and says, got your email but not the attachment.
    Me: Huh?
    Him: When I send this email, reply to it and keep the attachment that's there and attach the ddoc again.

    So, why is the US Govt not using the same thing? Can it really cost that much to implement (obv not)

    --
    2^3 * 31 * 647
  28. You don't read your scripts? by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

    Do you read through those scripts before running them?

    Are you suggesting I don't read all my make install and ./configure scripts?

    I review my scripts for correctness every morning before I kick off my kernel recompile and take my shower.
  29. Scanning at the mail server. by MulluskO · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A sane email policy blocks executable files and archives containing executables, but allowing dot docs in is probably unavoidable.

    I wonder then, if it might be possible to scan a Word document for stuff that's not needed. Treat all dot docs that have VB in them as executables and block them out. You might go so far as to attempt intelligent analysis of the document to make sure it consists only of code that would reasonably be generated by a human being. Perform sanity checks on certain variables and so on.

    --

    Too busy staying alive... ~ R.A.
    1. Re:Scanning at the mail server. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ODF because of its simplicity actually already has mail server products offering to clean out the ODF document coming in or going out from the inside (URL:http://www.3bview.com). So you don't necessarily have to lie back and think of Redmond with Office Documents - you should actually be able to dismantle them at entry point.

    2. Re:Scanning at the mail server. by SoulRider · · Score: 1

      I wonder then, if it might be possible to scan a Word document for stuff that's not needed.

      Wont work unless MS either opens up the Word document format or they write the scanners for every emailer out there. Neither seems likely.

    3. Re:Scanning at the mail server. by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Accepting MS Word docs is unavoidable? Sure it isnt. Just set policy - no word docs. Send your emails as plain text, send your documents-formatted-for-printing as PDF. Done.

      If this doesnt (yet again) highlight the need to drop 'MS Word' as a de-facto document exchange format, I dont know what would. Maybe its time for the US State Department to think about ODF (but as usual MS will grease a lot of palms and it wont happen)

    4. Re:Scanning at the mail server. by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Sure its possible. just runs 'strings' across it to extract just the ascii text. Of course, it will then look like shit, in which case you tell the sender to either send the original ascii text, or print to Postscript or PDF, which will maintain the formatting.

    5. Re:Scanning at the mail server. by Steve001 · · Score: 1

      The Cisco Kid wrote:

      Accepting MS Word docs is unavoidable? Sure it isnt. Just set policy - no word docs. Send your emails as plain text, send your documents-formatted-for-printing as PDF. Done.

      If this doesnt (yet again) highlight the need to drop 'MS Word' as a de-facto document exchange format, I dont know what would. Maybe its time for the US State Department to think about ODF (but as usual MS will grease a lot of palms and it wont happen)

      In addition to the danger of using a closed source format as a defacto document standard, I think another problem with using any one format as the only standard is that you end up trying to make that single format do everything. This adds to the complexity of the issue.

      Although we already sort of have this in the closed-source realm, I think what is needed is a collection of open document formats, each compatible with each other, that can be designed for different jobs, all the way from plain text all the way to industrial-level desktop publishing. Then you chose the format that suits your needs.

    6. Re:Scanning at the mail server. by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Er, yes, you should use the most appropriate (open, documented) format for each application or need to transfer information. No one (afaik, anyway) is suggesting using ODF in place of jpeg for high-quality photos, only for "editable formatted text-documents" (eg 'word processing').

      I'm not sure, but I beleive the ODF has related formats for 'spreadsheets', and 'databases', and 'presentations'.

    7. Re:Scanning at the mail server. by MulluskO · · Score: 1

      un@linux2[5] strings "some word.doc"
      Microsoft Word-Dokument
      MSWordDoc
      Word.Document.8
      Univers ity of Somewhere
      Normal.dot
      University of Somewhere
      ____
      Caolan80
      un@linux2[6]
      --

      Too busy staying alive... ~ R.A.
  30. I'm suprised that the dropped all internet access. by GrpA · · Score: 1

    If they needed to completely drop all internet access, it shows how poorly organised their internet services were.

    Most people under similar circumstances would simply upgrade their firewall ruleset and if necessary adopt alternate internal policies to allow limited connection to the internet during the crisis - especially given that it was indicated that the problems dropping the internet connection caused was significant.

    Simply unplugging the pipe to circumvent an internal threat is like turning the power off to an entire city just so someone can change a lightbulb... It's not necessary and it highlights the lack of Internet security skills available to some large government departments.

    GrpA.

    --
    Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
  31. Why does word need internet access? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And why does it need to send to the internet?

    That isn't the job of a word processor.

    So "privilege escalation" is *built in* to MS applications.

    And in order to make using these privs easier for the user, they are run with often higher privs than necessary (especially since there's no "postmaster" account, or "apache" user, etc. Just "you", "root" and "admin").

    For Linux/UNIX priv escalation is a mistake. For MS it's a "feature".

  32. Hiring ham-fisted negotiators doesn't hurt either! by FatSean · · Score: 1

    Ol' Condi Rice couldn't negotiate herself out of a paper bag...she's got three speeds of beligerance.

    --
    Blar.
  33. Why? by WindBourne · · Score: 1
    Windows has been THE single largest security risk and yet ppl keep using it. MS now has monster lobbyists who simply pay politicians to look the other way. So why would this change things? I can see it happening in only 1 of several ways:
    1. More commercial apps get ported to Linux.
    2. A Windows compromise leads to impeachment of the entire white house such that this is played in the papers OVER AND OVER. For those of you old enough to remember watergate or iran hostage situation, it will make sense.
    3. MS suddenly backs Linux (and not just suse).
    4. The rest of the world gets tired of US bullying on pirating and simply stops using Windows.

    Until then, this will be a SLOW and steady take away.
    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  34. Re:Dude this is Micro$oft Windows not Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude this is Micro$oft Windows not Linux

    Win 95 to NT Who knows what the department is running.

    The only sane windows connection is OFF (UNPLUGGED).

  35. Re:I'm suprised that the dropped all internet acce by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    If they needed to completely drop all internet access, it shows how poorly organised their internet services were.

    The IT guys at my work do that to, but all they really need to do is strip off everything except text/plain. At least that way we could keep working. They probably think emailing word documents to each other is normal and can't imagine not having it.

  36. hacker != criminal by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    -1 for subby for using the word "hacker" to describe the criminal(s) responsible. You'd think the /. crowd would know better.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  37. EVERY company? (Re:Great news for open formats) by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

    I though even the OS community had realised by now how ridiculous this argument is. World economy would in effect come to a halt if every company and public office started to scan source codes for potential vulnerabilities. This is hardly a selling argument and being a wise-ass about it has never helped the OS movement. You miss the point. For security vulnerabilities, this isn't a "many eyes" argument, it's a "support flexibility" argument. Given the time it takes for many vendors to close their security holes, if a company finds a severe threat to its security, open source gives it the option of developing their own patch, regardless of whether the vendor or the open-source community agrees with their assessment of the risk level. Even if the community never benefits from one company's analysis of a security issue, that company will have benefited.

    And it doesn't have to be tied to a pro-active security scan, so your argument about the world economy grinding to a halt is just bogus. Even in the current reactive mode, where patches are triggered by vulnerability exploits, open source comes out ahead. A corporation using open source can run a particular exploit through a source code debugger to find out the offending code for themselves. This is nowhere near as labor intensive as a full scan of a product and still provides much more disclosure to the customer than is provided my MS or any other closed-source vendor.
    --
    We are the 198 proof..
  38. Re:It proves a set of closed vs open source argume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Heads should roll

    They did

    -mcgrew

  39. Yikes! 15 minutes to doom. by blueZ3 · · Score: 1

    If you're re-imaging employee's systems if you can't figure out their problem in 15 minutes, my guess is you're the most-hated and lowest rated department on any internal customer service surveys.

    "Sorry, Joe. I can't resolve your problem and the egg timer just went off, so I'm remotely re-installing Windows and destroying whatever customization you've done to the machine. Now, about that 'How is IT doing' survey..."

    I bet there are a lot of support people who would love to work for an organization the solution is to nuke from orbit if you can't resolve the issue in some arbitrary time period. I'd also bet that for other employees attempting to use computers to get their work done, having you for a "support" organization is like having Hannibal Lecter for a physician.

    --
    Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
  40. Irresponsible by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    This isn't a story out of the early-1990s; they're talking about something relatively recent (last summer).

    It has been well known, for a very, very long time, that Microsoft's applications basically treat what normal software would treat as passive content, as active code. Any time you open someone else's MS Word, MS Excel, etc document, you're running someone else's computer program. I can accept that responsible people might not have understood this 15 years ago, but in 2006? Geez, get real!

    When people make such well-known and obvious mistakes like this, I can't really blame the software maker. If you still use Microsoft products, then you ought to know this by now. If you use those products on machines that have access to sensitive information, or if you use those products to load and execute code from untrusted sources, then the consequences are your fault, not Microsoft's. You used the wrong tool for the job. I don't blame a hammer for hurting me when I smash my head with it; the hammer functions exactly like I expect it to.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  41. Puzzled ... by jc42 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why in the world would anyone with security concerns (and even the tiniest amount of sense ;-) allow the use of Word or any other proprietary, binary format, in email?

    A fun example: A couple of years ago, a fellow hereabouts told the local linux/unix user group a funny story of how Word docs got banned at his workplace. It seems that a VP had written some missive, and decided that it was so important that everyone in the company would want to read it. So he mailed it out to everyone. It was a Word doc, and the people with unix-type workstations mostly couldn't read it, so they did the obvious thing. They fed it to the strings(1) command. The result of this isn't pretty, since it loses all the (binary) formatting and font markup, but the text was readable.

    However, strings can't decode the binary stuff, and didn't know to honor the "deleted" tags on big chunks of the file. It seems that among the deleted stuff was a list of the salaries of most of the management. Ooops!

    The unix users got a bit of a chuckle out of this, of course, and the news got back to the VP (and other managers) what he'd mailed out. After the inevitable finger pointing settled down, the message got through the mangers' thick skulls that Word docs can and usually do contain "deleted" stuff that hasn't actually been removed or blanked out, and any time they send someone a Word doc, they might be sending them pieces of any other Word doc that has ever been on their computer. And it's not just unix users who can read this "deleted" stuff; a clever programmer could fairly easily make it visible on Microsoft systems, too. You could just port the strings command to Windows.

    So the word came down that Word docs were strictly forbidden in email. Especially email sent outside the company.

    This problem is not exactly secret. Any organization that allows Word docs, or any other proprietary binary format, in emails is inviting exactly this same sort of problem. Even if you don't understand it or believe it, chances are that some of your competitors do.

    It's especially astonishing that the US State Department would allow Word docs to be emailed. Don't they have any competent security people at all?

    (Or maybe they do, but they are intentionally ignoring the advice of such people. That does seem to be how the US government works these days. ;-)

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  42. Why why why... by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

    ... does the state department use word? Yes, in principle the same thing can happen on other systems, but Word, Windows, Office, and a fair chunk of other Microsoft applications are known for this kind of thing. If the electric circuitry of your house goes out time and time again, and each time it turns out to be your toaster, and no matter how often you send it back to be repaired it happens again. Would you eventually consider trying another brand or would you ask for your money back? Lets go further, suppose this was a known problem with the particular brand of toaster, and it happened to a large number of people, over and pver again, despite the repairs. Suppose it happened with every single modell of toaster this company made. Suppose the problem was well known and the company only made half assed efforts to fix it. Suppose every time your lights went out the people using a different modell would point and laugh at you. Would you keep paying $100 per toaster for this brand, knowing full and well that you would have to pay another $200 in three years time, or would you get a toaster from someone with an excellent track record in building them reliable, who gave it to you for free, gave you the full blueprints, was recomended by a number of certified electricians, and used half the amount of electricity as compared to your old toaster?

    It is indeed easy to blame Microsoft, but to be honest, it is the people who keep giving them money for developing this crap that allow them to continue to do so. Unless you are a hard core gamer ( and even if you are ) chances are you can find everything you need on another platform. Linux, Mac, BSD .. whatever. Heck, you could set up a system allowing you to boot either of the three ( or fifteen if you like to switch between different distros ) for the cost of the Mac alone. Private users can at least refer to the gaming industry, but the state department? I bet it would be cheaper for them to hire someone to develop whatever OS-specific software they needed rather than dealing with Windows.

  43. Formats related to Open Document Text by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

    Since OpenOffice has a spreadsheet program, a database program, and a program to make presentations with, I'm certain that there are Open Document formats specific to spreadsheets, databases, and "presentations."

    --
    There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  44. Re:I'm suprised that the dropped all internet acce by gdrumm0356 · · Score: 1

    Quite common practice for sites with forensics capabilities.

    What did the payload do on the system in question, or elsewhere on the Intranet?
    Stopping incoming is not as important as stopping outgoing after a breach!

    --
    Former geek, now I can rest...