But you can buy them online for $20 with shipping and all if you look hard enough.
I'm not sure notebook/cardbus interfaces are designed to deliver more than 750mA to their lots, anyway. Subtract from that 250mA-350mA for the IBM card itself, and thats probaly not enough for the iPod or anything else that doesn't use 3.3v natively (i.e. anything with a wasteful internal voltage regulator). I'm noticing on "iPod compatible" 1394 cards they have an external power transformer..
Does the thinkpad have a reasonably standardized mini-pci interface? perhaps firewire is/willl be available in that form factor... well.. probably not.. but wishful thinking.
I have setup this card on a dell latitude under Windows XP with similar troubles. I started by trying the usual windows update stuff, and that seemed to help, but I'm not sure that was all that needed to happen in the end. Can you tell me more about the situation?
Also, I was using a powered-from-firewire notebook ide device for a while and on this particular card I had to use it with an external power source. Aparently this card can't or doesn't provide power for firewire devices.
A lot of the comments I've read so far are missing something. Yes, it is just a giant fact-base in an expert system. And yes, that will exhibit human-esque "reasoning". And yes, a good argument can be made that this isn't "true" intelligence, and it won't develop true sentience... but
Imagine the military and educational benefits of such a system. The US military is getting their money's worth, and they know it. Imagine Cyc, with its full fact-base, on a device carried by every soldier. "Cyc, how do I fix this problem on an Apache helicopter?" "Cyc, where is the fuel tank on this specific enemy vehicle?" Can you imagine being an inquisitive child and having one of these things at your disposal? "Cyc, how does this work?" "Cyc what is fourier analysis?".. and so on.
This sort of system is a really good system for organizing and relating statements and presenting them in such a way extraneous unrelated results can be easily eliminated, and related results can be located quickly. It it can be made to derive statements for its fact-base by reading anything available, then it would become almost like an Oracle of Knowledge. Eventually, with some years of refinement, it may be possible to ask the engine difficult theoretical questions, ("How can we improve on the strength of carbon nanotubes?") to which it would respond with an experimental procedure (as the answer is not immediately clear) to discover more facts toward the solution to the problem...
When you consider this, it doesn't really matter if it has "true" intelligence or not. We don't have to argue the finer points on reasoning, intelligence, etc. No matter what, it will be a system the human intelligence can use to extend its own reasoning, and with that, I think, we will be able to make great bounds forth in education and scientific discoveries because we will be able to relate such broad and deep pools of knowledge.
I'm an IT consultant. I've helped install/oversaw at least 6 of these installations. Here is what I can tell you:
1. It has a high latency. 900-2000 ms. It depends more on your geographic location than you think. This number is for kentucky installations.
2. It only has about 24 outgoing channels. This means that you can only maintain about 24 concurrent TCP sessions. This is why business users randomly get "This page cannot be displayed." when they are using the ethernet connection off the Starband 360. This problem was much worse using ethernet on the 180. this is perhaps why they chose USB instead of ethernet -- their software seems to try to deal with it, and it does help.
3. Tech support is clueless.
Software works best on W2k, with USB. Its just plain more stable with USB drivers and their software.
4. Running even modest services (WWW, FTP, etc) is a no-no. At least one client has had their service turned off for days because they were running IIS.
5. You *will* have strange problems at some point or another, but (5 out of the 6) have had the problems resolved in 1-2 days. You spend about 5-10 hours doing what they ask, only to find out it was something on their end. Happens about once every six months for most of my clients that use this service.
It is my overall impression that its just not a very good service. It "feels" like a modem, but at least you can get apt-get update done in a reasonable amount of time. The pricetag is also a little hefty for my taste.
Hack up your own DirecTV/Echostar interface. I've been working privately on my own project like this. I'm not sure about ALL recievers, but I'm pretty sure "Low Speed Data" on other DSS recievers can be hacked up to a PC serial port for control. "Smart" VCRs use this feature to control time/channel. So while this package isn't exactly suited to non-cable tuning.. Making it support DirecTV is probably a non-issue. Who knows? I might submit a patch.
Wendell
My apologies to those in EST
on
Time Travel
·
· Score: 0
My apologies to many of those in the eastern timezone. I was experimenting with my apparatus and the effect.. was somewhat exaggerated. If you are experiencing the effects of my time machine, you will have noticed the time advanced forward one hour. Please... deal with it.. while I search for a way to compensate for the distortions in time with my machine.
I don't understand. MTBF is Mean Time Between Failures... How can the MTBF be greater than the expected life of the drive? I'm not sure if its the same, but the way engineers calculate MTBF has everything to do with the useful (or safe) lifetime of a piece of engineering...
If you ever need the electronics for the 18GB Netfinity drives, just let me know. About four of my dead drives are the 18ZX. I opened one up.. you know.. for giggles.. and the entire magnetic coating on the top platter was scraped off. For some reason, the drive had not powered down when the head crashed... I came in monday morning with the server happily making a circular-saw type noise followed by what sounded like a decompression.
Lately, I've taken an interest in Seagate drives.. I have tried out some Cheetah 10k rpm drives under *extremely* heavy load, and they're still going strong. We also have a mix of Maxtors and Seagate Barracuda drives in our desktops (20-50 gb range).. I've only had to replace a few of those.
333 hrs/mo is about 1/3 the time.. so.. You know, just get three drives and hack the kernel raid code so that only one drive is spun up and they take turns being used..
Re:Because online polls are completel... [OT]
on
IBM 120GXP Revisited
·
· Score: 1
Oh, actually, if that is the drive family I'm thinking of (just won't spin up anymore) it was a bearing/grease problem.
We had a number of WD drives die in this era, but I was able to "manually" loosen the spindle by spinning the disk around quickly on the axis of rotation of the platters. You could actually feel the platter spindle loosen with the inertia. It was good for copying data off...
Disturbed quite a few technicians that way. "Hey, that drive is dead." "Oh? Is It? (spin spin spin)" "Try it now." "... you're weird... HEY!! Its working!!"....
Product Lifetime: 5 years@333 hours/month with 20% of that time being seeking/reading/writing.
Translation "This drive is designed to live for 19,980 hours with 3996 hours of that dedicated to reading/writing/seeking."
But the warranty is 3 years, and IBM has shown themselves to be untrustworthy with this whole fiasco. So that means a drive lifetime of 11,988 hours with 2397.6 of those hours reading/writing/seeking. This seems less than ideal for even an entry-level workgroup or internet server.
What happened to measuring failure rate in MTBF? What happened to MTBF in the hundreds of thousands of hours??
Wendell
Trend toward drives with low MTBF?
on
IBM 120GXP Revisited
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
I have not really trusted IBM drives since my DGHS 18 U died. Not because it died, but because IBM Customer Service handled it extremely poorly. Not only was the drive purchased from an authorized IBM agent I had full documentation. They had initially said I needed documentation to replace it, but when I obtained documentation they said the warranty was only a year. The paperwork I had clearly showed otherwise, but they sternly refused. Since, I have acumulated about 14 dead IBM drives in the 10-30 gb range...
Anyway, I think we're all misisng something here. I've seen IBM drives installed in a Raid config die within hours of eachother, just days or weeks out of warranty.
I think the thinking at IBM drives is along this line "Lets manufacture the drive in such a way we can undercut our competition, but as a result, it will make the drive only last this many hours.." The failure rate could be related to the fatigue rate of metal of a certain purity used in the drive, stability of ceramics used, how good the air filter is inside, etc etc. From my experience seeing each class of drives die, The MTBF is amazingly similar between drives that die.
Lets say the warranty on these is 3 year. Isn't that IBM saying that the drive has a lifetime of 11,998 hours, or just about 499.5 days? If I'm right, even if you follow IBM's reccomendation, the drive will die, but more likely to be out of warranty. Will they replace the drive if I don't follow the reccomendation? I would like my drives to last 5 or 10 years.. or until I don't need it anymore. Period. Not a year.. or three years or whatever the warranty du jour is.
The oldest drives I have and am using are Seagate FH 5.25" 9 gb scsi drives. They're 10 years old. Their MTBF is clearly published, and about 800,000 hours, if memory serves.... this is far more acceptable.
I have both windows and linux boxes to play around with this on. I do not believe the site itself is 'slashdotted' but aparently someone providing bandwidth between here and taiwan has a congested link. The site was very slow earlier, so I did a traceroute from my site (eastern US) and a site we help manage in Moscow. The Moscow traceroute was through a completely different link, and the site was up even though I could not get to it from my Windows box. Testing the site in lynx, from moscow, was much more responsive, as well. From the US site, it looks like hinet.net was the bandwidth bottle neck for US users, though aparently, they got it fixed because I'm watching a movie. I'm 22 hops away in the eastern US, and 14 hops in eastern Europe.
As far as accounts go, they seem to have some problem with Netscape for linux. Mozilla seems to work ok, though they seem to rely on some scripting features not used by Mozilla to manage user logins once you decide on what movie you want to watch. It might be a cookie thing, too. It seems to work well in IE 5.5 and IE6 for Windows.
I have been watching Frankenstein Goes to College for the past 45 minutes or so -- no skips, data loss, fragmentation, or other oddities.
Wendell
New research field for AI?
on
Think And Click
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Bare with me for just a moment - Anyone read the Quantum Leap books? Beckett used a part of his own brain to help create Ziggy.. to help bridge the gap between sheer computation and human reasoning.. .
That and this article provoke an interesting thought - can this sort of technology be used to prematurely enable "artificial" intelligence in computers? Think about it: an advanced, organic brain being fed information from digital sources, and those sources of information reacting to the thoughts of the brain. It could enable a monkey to have very advanced visual and auditory inputs... would human-like intelligence come about? This is another form of the question chimpanzee researchers have been asking for ages: What if chimps had the physical ability for something as advanced as vocal speech?
Dr. Robert Zurbin, lockheed martin engineer
and NASA affiliate, has actually designed a
mars mission (for NASA through lockheed martin) that will only cost about US$10B and does only use (martian) air, gravity, and a small nuclear reactor.
As for pole stations that DO use only resources "naturally" available, he has established one and another is in the works. http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-base-01h.html Basically, the idea is to send an unmanned rocket to mars (no larger than conventional rockets used in large sattelite launches) with lots of hydrogen and a small nuclear reactor. The hydrogen can be combined with things in the martian atmosphere to produce methane, oxygen and water. The reaction has carbon monoxide leftover, which is vented to the atmosphere. After the unmanned rocket with the H2 completes, a manned rocket is sent to mars. The first rocket will have generated all the fuel to return home (something like 800 tons of methane from 40 tons of H2), water and oxygen for the arriving astronaughts.
There is also a discovery program about this. He has had good success using this method elsewhere.. and a full scale, self-contained simulation started this month. A plug for his book about this and some useful text on the subject can be found at http://www.nw.net/mars/
It was written by HP to
do exactly what you describe. I have set it up,
and it works well. I use its software on X, the server is RedHat and many of its clients still use Outlook 98 or Outlook 2000. Unfortunately, HP suspended development of OpenMail due to "lack of interest". My sources in HP say that, at least part of it, was worry that Microsoft would yank key agreements with HP or make life generally difficult for HP.
OpenMail is a very cool product. I'd like to see Bruce Perens opensource it, but it doesn't seem like that is going to happen.
You will have to send mail to request a login/pass to download it, but emailing linuxkey@openmail.com (I *think*) will give you a license file you can use with open mail for up to 50 users.
Actually, according to popular economists now-- oil isn't the issue at all. OPEC oil tycoons actually have huge investments in American corporations and benefit indirectly from the sales of their oil. They don't actually see much profit at all from selling the oil, but from industry that flourishes here from that oil, and any other investments they have.
In other words, using their oil to ensure our strong economy helps ensure the growth of their investments is more profitable than strictly making money from oil. This is why oil prices tend to go up in times of economic downturn in the US.
Having worked at one of the local providers here, I can tell you the secret to not going belly up is to sell incoming and outgoing bandwidth.
Sprint and MCI know that, and thats one of the reasons its hard for ma and pa ISPs to make it. You have to sell your upstream to hosting people and your downstream to DSL/Cable/Dialup customers. You can't really do well hosting just one or the other.
In fact, a lot of dedicated hosting people get their bandwidth from ISPs that have more downstream users than upstream hosting needs because those ISPs can afford to sell their upstream because they don't need it and they are almost making a profit selling connectivity.
So you see, its a sort of symbiotic relationship... If you can ensure a good hosting market and a good dialup market, then you're much less likely to go belly-up.
W
Slashdot Mirror
Lame, Yes. Idiotic, Yes.
But you can buy them online for $20 with shipping and all if you look hard enough.
I'm not sure notebook/cardbus interfaces are designed to deliver more than 750mA to their lots, anyway. Subtract from that 250mA-350mA for the IBM card itself, and thats probaly not enough for the iPod or anything else that doesn't use 3.3v natively (i.e. anything with a wasteful internal voltage regulator). I'm noticing on "iPod compatible" 1394 cards they have an external power transformer..
Does the thinkpad have a reasonably standardized mini-pci interface? perhaps firewire is/willl be available in that form factor... well.. probably not.. but wishful thinking.
Wendell
I have setup this card on a dell latitude under Windows XP with similar troubles. I started by trying the usual windows update stuff, and that seemed to help, but I'm not sure that was all that needed to happen in the end. Can you tell me more about the situation?
Also, I was using a powered-from-firewire notebook ide device for a while and on this particular card I had to use it with an external power source. Aparently this card can't or doesn't provide power for firewire devices.
Hope this helps
Wendell
A lot of the comments I've read so far are missing something. Yes, it is just a giant fact-base in an expert system. And yes, that will exhibit human-esque "reasoning". And yes, a good argument can be made that this isn't "true" intelligence, and it won't develop true sentience
Imagine the military and educational benefits of such a system. The US military is getting their money's worth, and they know it. Imagine Cyc, with its full fact-base, on a device carried by every soldier. "Cyc, how do I fix this problem on an Apache helicopter?" "Cyc, where is the fuel tank on this specific enemy vehicle?" Can you imagine being an inquisitive child and having one of these things at your disposal? "Cyc, how does this work?" "Cyc what is fourier analysis?"
This sort of system is a really good system for organizing and relating statements and presenting them in such a way extraneous unrelated results can be easily eliminated, and related results can be located quickly. It it can be made to derive statements for its fact-base by reading anything available, then it would become almost like an Oracle of Knowledge. Eventually, with some years of refinement, it may be possible to ask the engine difficult theoretical questions, ("How can we improve on the strength of carbon nanotubes?") to which it would respond with an experimental procedure (as the answer is not immediately clear) to discover more facts toward the solution to the problem...
When you consider this, it doesn't really matter if it has "true" intelligence or not. We don't have to argue the finer points on reasoning, intelligence, etc. No matter what, it will be a system the human intelligence can use to extend its own reasoning, and with that, I think, we will be able to make great bounds forth in education and scientific discoveries because we will be able to relate such broad and deep pools of knowledge.
Wendell
You need some uranium?
I sure wish I had ebay when I was a kid...
I'm an IT consultant. I've helped install/oversaw at least 6 of these installations. Here is what I can tell you:
1. It has a high latency. 900-2000 ms. It depends more on your geographic location than you think. This number is for kentucky installations.
2. It only has about 24 outgoing channels. This means that you can only maintain about 24 concurrent TCP sessions. This is why business users randomly get "This page cannot be displayed." when they are using the ethernet connection off the Starband 360. This problem was much worse using ethernet on the 180. this is perhaps why they chose USB instead of ethernet -- their software seems to try to deal with it, and it does help.
3. Tech support is clueless.
Software works best on W2k, with USB. Its just plain more stable with USB drivers and their software.
4. Running even modest services (WWW, FTP, etc) is a no-no. At least one client has had their service turned off for days because they were running IIS.
5. You *will* have strange problems at some point or another, but (5 out of the 6) have had the problems resolved in 1-2 days. You spend about 5-10 hours doing what they ask, only to find out it was something on their end. Happens about once every six months for most of my clients that use this service.
It is my overall impression that its just not a very good service. It "feels" like a modem, but at least you can get apt-get update done in a reasonable amount of time. The pricetag is also a little hefty for my taste.
Wendell
Hack up your own DirecTV/Echostar interface.
I've been working privately on my own project like this. I'm not sure about ALL recievers, but I'm pretty sure "Low Speed Data" on other DSS recievers can be hacked up to a PC serial port for control. "Smart" VCRs use this feature to control time/channel. So while this package isn't exactly suited to non-cable tuning.. Making it support DirecTV is probably a non-issue. Who knows? I might submit a patch.
Wendell
My apologies to many of those in the eastern timezone. I was experimenting with my apparatus and the effect.. was somewhat exaggerated. If you are experiencing the effects of my time machine, you will have noticed the time advanced forward one hour. Please... deal with it.. while I search for a way to compensate for the distortions in time with my machine.
Thanks
crazy-mad-scientist
I don't understand. MTBF is Mean Time Between Failures... How can the MTBF be greater than the expected life of the drive? I'm not sure if its the same, but the way engineers calculate MTBF has everything to do with the useful (or safe) lifetime of a piece of engineering...
If you ever need the electronics for the 18GB Netfinity drives, just let me know. About four of my dead drives are the 18ZX. I opened one up.. you know.. for giggles.. and the entire magnetic coating on the top platter was scraped off. For some reason, the drive had not powered down when the head crashed... I came in monday morning with the server happily making a circular-saw type noise followed by what sounded like a decompression.
Lately, I've taken an interest in Seagate drives.. I have tried out some Cheetah 10k rpm drives under *extremely* heavy load, and they're still going strong. We also have a mix of Maxtors and Seagate Barracuda drives in our desktops (20-50 gb range).. I've only had to replace a few of those.
Wendell
Oh, only use it 1/3 the time.. Sure. Right.
What's next? Raid Level GXP?
333 hrs/mo is about 1/3 the time.. so.. You know, just get three drives and hack the kernel raid code so that only one drive is spun up and they take turns being used..
Oh, actually, if that is the drive family I'm thinking of (just won't spin up anymore) it was a bearing/grease problem.
We had a number of WD drives die in this era, but I was able to "manually" loosen the spindle by spinning the disk around quickly on the axis of rotation of the platters. You could actually feel the platter spindle loosen with the inertia. It was good for copying data off...
Disturbed quite a few technicians that way. "Hey, that drive is dead." "Oh? Is It? (spin spin spin)" "Try it now." "
Wendell
from the GXP technical pdf
Product Lifetime: 5 years@333 hours/month with 20% of that time being seeking/reading/writing.
Translation "This drive is designed to live for 19,980 hours with 3996 hours of that dedicated to reading/writing/seeking."
But the warranty is 3 years, and IBM has shown themselves to be untrustworthy with this whole fiasco. So that means a drive lifetime of 11,988 hours with 2397.6 of those hours reading/writing/seeking. This seems less than ideal for even an entry-level workgroup or internet server.
What happened to measuring failure rate in MTBF? What happened to MTBF in the hundreds of thousands of hours??
Wendell
I have not really trusted IBM drives since my DGHS 18 U died. Not because it died, but because IBM Customer Service handled it extremely poorly. Not only was the drive purchased from an authorized IBM agent I had full documentation. They had initially said I needed documentation to replace it, but when I obtained documentation they said the warranty was only a year. The paperwork I had clearly showed otherwise, but they sternly refused. Since, I have acumulated about 14 dead IBM drives in the 10-30 gb range...
Anyway, I think we're all misisng something here. I've seen IBM drives installed in a Raid config die within hours of eachother, just days or weeks out of warranty.
I think the thinking at IBM drives is along this line "Lets manufacture the drive in such a way we can undercut our competition, but as a result, it will make the drive only last this many hours.." The failure rate could be related to the fatigue rate of metal of a certain purity used in the drive, stability of ceramics used, how good the air filter is inside, etc etc. From my experience seeing each class of drives die, The MTBF is amazingly similar between drives that die.
Lets say the warranty on these is 3 year. Isn't that IBM saying that the drive has a lifetime of 11,998 hours, or just about 499.5 days? If I'm right, even if you follow IBM's reccomendation, the drive will die, but more likely to be out of warranty. Will they replace the drive if I don't follow the reccomendation? I would like my drives to last 5 or 10 years.. or until I don't need it anymore. Period. Not a year.. or three years or whatever the warranty du jour is.
The oldest drives I have and am using are Seagate FH 5.25" 9 gb scsi drives. They're 10 years old. Their MTBF is clearly published, and about 800,000 hours, if memory serves.... this is far more acceptable.
Wendell
I have both windows and linux boxes to play around with this on. I do not believe the site itself is 'slashdotted' but aparently someone providing bandwidth between here and taiwan has a congested link. The site was very slow earlier, so I did a traceroute from my site (eastern US) and a site we help manage in Moscow. The Moscow traceroute was through a completely different link, and the site was up even though I could not get to it from my Windows box. Testing the site in lynx, from moscow, was much more responsive, as well. From the US site, it looks like hinet.net was the bandwidth bottle neck for US users, though aparently, they got it fixed because I'm watching a movie. I'm 22 hops away in the eastern US, and 14 hops in eastern Europe.
As far as accounts go, they seem to have some problem with Netscape for linux. Mozilla seems to work ok, though they seem to rely on some scripting features not used by Mozilla to manage user logins once you decide on what movie you want to watch. It might be a cookie thing, too. It seems to work well in IE 5.5 and IE6 for Windows.
I have been watching Frankenstein Goes to College for the past 45 minutes or so -- no skips, data loss, fragmentation, or other oddities.
Wendell
Bare with me for just a moment - Anyone read the Quantum Leap books? Beckett used a part of his own brain to help create Ziggy.. to help bridge the gap between sheer computation and human reasoning.. .
That and this article provoke an interesting thought - can this sort of technology be used to prematurely enable "artificial" intelligence in computers? Think about it: an advanced, organic brain being fed information from digital sources, and those sources of information reacting to the thoughts of the brain. It could enable a monkey to have very advanced visual and auditory inputs... would human-like intelligence come about? This is another form of the question chimpanzee researchers have been asking for ages: What if chimps had the physical ability for something as advanced as vocal speech?
Wendell
Dr. Robert Zurbin, lockheed martin engineer and NASA affiliate, has actually designed a mars mission (for NASA through lockheed martin) that will only cost about US$10B and does only use (martian) air, gravity, and a small nuclear reactor.
As for pole stations that DO use only resources "naturally" available, he has established one and another is in the works.
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-base-01h.html
Basically, the idea is to send an unmanned rocket to mars (no larger than conventional rockets used in large sattelite launches) with lots of hydrogen and a small nuclear reactor. The hydrogen can be combined with things in the martian atmosphere to produce methane, oxygen and water. The reaction has carbon monoxide leftover, which is vented to the atmosphere. After the unmanned rocket with the H2 completes, a manned rocket is sent to mars. The first rocket will have generated all the fuel to return home (something like 800 tons of methane from 40 tons of H2), water and oxygen for the arriving astronaughts.
There is also a discovery program about this. He has had good success using this method elsewhere.. and a full scale, self-contained simulation started this month. A plug for his book about this and some useful text on the subject can be found at http://www.nw.net/mars/
Wendell
Check out HP OpenMail. http://www.openmail.com
It was written by HP to
do exactly what you describe. I have set it up,
and it works well. I use its software on X, the server is RedHat and many of its clients still use Outlook 98 or Outlook 2000. Unfortunately, HP suspended development of OpenMail due to "lack of interest". My sources in HP say that, at least part of it, was worry that Microsoft would yank key agreements with HP or make life generally difficult for HP.
OpenMail is a very cool product. I'd like to see Bruce Perens opensource it, but it doesn't seem like that is going to happen.
You will have to send mail to request a login/pass to download it, but emailing linuxkey@openmail.com (I *think*) will give you a license file you can use with open mail for up to 50 users.
Wendell
Actually, according to popular economists now-- oil isn't the issue at all. OPEC oil tycoons actually have huge investments in American corporations and benefit indirectly from the sales of their oil. They don't actually see much profit at all from selling the oil, but from industry that flourishes here from that oil, and any other investments they have.
In other words, using their oil to ensure our strong economy helps ensure the growth of their investments is more profitable than strictly making money from oil. This is why oil prices tend to go up in times of economic downturn in the US.
Having worked at one of the local providers here, I can tell you the secret to not going belly up is to sell incoming and outgoing bandwidth. Sprint and MCI know that, and thats one of the reasons its hard for ma and pa ISPs to make it. You have to sell your upstream to hosting people and your downstream to DSL/Cable/Dialup customers. You can't really do well hosting just one or the other. In fact, a lot of dedicated hosting people get their bandwidth from ISPs that have more downstream users than upstream hosting needs because those ISPs can afford to sell their upstream because they don't need it and they are almost making a profit selling connectivity. So you see, its a sort of symbiotic relationship... If you can ensure a good hosting market and a good dialup market, then you're much less likely to go belly-up. W