You can get an ASUS X205 with Windows 8.1 preinstalled for about $200 shipped
When I search for "Asus X205" i find only laptops. We're not really in the same class, here; there are times when a small form factor desktop is distinctly advantageous for the application.
That said it's not three times smaller, it's three times less volume.
Yeah, but the former is catchier for advertising than the latter.:)
not much bigger than a Raspberry Pi B+, which let's be honest, isn't game-changing at this point
Have you seen a PC in the past 5 years that would honestly count as "game-changing"? Neither have I. Everything is an iterative step now.
My youngests computer died, and I ended up replacing it with a Biostar A68N-5000. It was $70 shipped. It is fanless and draws very little power. I imagine this is just a further iteration of the technology.
That is only a motherboard, though. You still need a case - and the mini ITX cases generally come without power supplies. You could likely get this with case and power supply for under $200 but not by a lot. A nice recommendation either way, though.
These guys are claiming barebones PCs will start at $129. I find this a relief in comparison to the companies that keep offering barebones rigs like these starting at $400 or more.
The Chevrolet Bolt is uglier than the Toyota Prius (which is a feat) and most likely front wheel drive. The Tesla is a very nice looking car and rear wheel drive (with options now for all-wheel drive). In other words, the Chevy looks awful and won't be fun to drive. The Tesla looks great and is a lot of fun to drive. Even for GM this is a pretty half-assed attempt.
I just got a comment from slashdot telling me that you foe'd me. Care to tell me why? I couldn't easily find any discussions we were both present in (prior to this one with my asking you this question).
My first is in college right now, and we are paying just about $600/semester (Plus books) for full time at the local community college. She can go there two years then head to the 4 year state school where the costs is something like $5k/semester plus books.
Community colleges are great, but a lot of people fall into traps that sound like what you are describing. In >>99% of all cases, a 2-year degree from a community college does not knock off anywhere near 2 years from a 4-year bachelor's degree. Generally that 2-year degree knocks off one year and maybe a couple miscellaneous lib-ed requirements. Yeah, it saves you some money but it costs you some time. You could have gone straight into a 4-year program and - assuming you knew what you wanted to major in (which a lot of kids do not) - graduated in 4 years. Instead you started off at community and now your 4-year degree is taking you a total of 5+ years.
Now, those 5 years might actually be a really good investment. For a lot of kids it certainly is - a lot of kids finish high school without any real ability to adapt to college. Nonetheless it does not lead to the dramatic money savings that many people (or more so, many people's parents) hope for.
It never ceases to amaze me when people get 70K into debt going to a 4 year school getting a secondary education degree or something, where the starting annual pay is half their debt load.
This varies a lot from one state to another but a lot of states now require a master's to teach at primary or secondary level. $70K is actually doing quite well for student loans for a bachelors and a masters. Most physicians - who have generally done only 8 years of school (2 years more than a teacher) - are well into six figures of debt by the time they start a residency.
As for the relation between debt load and salary, I would say that your observation says more about how little we pay our teachers than anything.
On this occasion, I did do a poor job of checking my typing before hitting submit, there are some typos in that message that are definitely my fault. However, in what way is it my fault that text rendered by this site does not get accepted properly back in to the text input boxes on this site?
More to the point, "overrated" is a cowardly mod. The person who used it on my comment almost certainly disagreed with what I was saying, rather than how it was entered and was too much of a coward to actually talk about it.
Even for Samzenpus this is a crappy article, and that is really saying something. You can't expect to be taken seriously when you start a summary with
whipped themselves into a frenzy
. That was quickly followed by a classic editing fail:
major international meeting to tackle geoengineering. Itâ(TM)s most commonly called geoengineering
The final statement with the cheesy summary of ethics:
the scientists wanted to agree on a code of ethicsâ"how to move forward without alarming the public or breaking any laws.
Well summarized whose side of the conspiracy theory Samzenpus is on.
Although considering the overwhelming conservative vocal majority here on slashdot, it really doesn't surprise me at all that this crap made the front page. If you can't disprove the science, why not attack the scientists themselves, right? Make them look as crooked and juvenile as possible so nobody will want to have anything to do with them? Maybe we can swift boat them while we're at it.
(yeah, I know I will be moderated down into oblivion for this. but we all know there is no "-1 disagree" moderation so they'll have to use "flamebait" or "overrated" as a substitute. that doesn't chance the fact - as much as they would want it to)
If you are going to do the civil disobedience, you have to be prepared to accept the consequences.
What he did was arguably well beyond civil disobedience. If his only cause was "liberation" of the information (or whatever other term his worshipers are favoring this week) he could have done it all from his desk and it would have taken just a little more time. That still would have been civil disobedience. Instead he forced his way in to a closet that he was not supposed to have access to, and took up so much bandwidth as to hinder the ability of other researchers to do their work. This was beyond civil disobedience.
Killing yourself and then having the "information must be free" crowd whine about it later isn't civil disobedience.
Correct. He knowingly and willingly broke the law and then took the coward's way out. This crowd shouldn't be supporting him; they should be throwing him under the bus for making those with legitimate gripes against the system look like hacks. He did not advance the discussion in any meaningful way.
You're creating a false dichotomy where either Swartz was a hero or Ortiz is a hero. In fact, neither is a terribly respectable character.
I'm not saying she's a hero, either. I'm saying Swartz was an idiot and the people who worship him as a martyr view everyone who doesn't worship him as a villain.
The issue with Ortiz's prosecution was that she offered him a plea deal of 6 months with the alternative of prosecuting him with charges that would carry up to 50 years in jail and $1,000,000 in fines. If she thought the crime was worth 6 months in jail then she should have simply prosecuted it as such (and frankly should be forced to prosecute it as such since she obviously can't be trusted with any discretion).
IANAL but my understanding of the legal system is that is how plea bargains usually work; the accused can plead guilty to lesser charges for lesser sentences than what the prosecution believes they have evidence to prosecute under. To go to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum I have never heard of someone who was charged with a capital offense taking a capital charge as a plea bargain; rather they would plea down to life without parole. Now, the difference between 50 years and 6 months is of course enormous for sure but from my understanding plea bargains basically always offer a reduced sentence in comparison to what the prosecution believes they can get in a trial.
She's scum. That doesn't mean that Swartz is some kind of hero.
My point here though is that the case never made it to court. In fact it really was quite a ways from making it to trial. This makes it basically impossible to tell what she (or her office) would have presented in the trial that never happened. Calling her an evil person based on a trial that never happened is not exactly well connected to reality.
But what I don't get is the idea that there needs to be a high threshold for replacing people in positions of power
The case never went to court, it was only beginning to take shape when Swartz took the easy way out in hopes of making himself into some sort of twisted martyr. We will never be able to say whether or not Ortiz would have done a good job as a prosecutor or not as the case never went through. I'm not saying we need impossibly high standards for removing someone from their job, I'm merely saying we can't say whether or not she did a good job prosecuting this case as it never reached any kind of trial or verdict.
Swartz was an idiot, not a hero. Stop making him a religious idol. Has anyone criticized Carmen Ortiz for the prosecution that her office led on Whitey Bulger or Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?
No, they have not. This petition isn't about Carmen Ortiz, it is about more people trying to make a hero out of a fool. Carmen Ortiz worked hard to get to where she is, don't paint her as a super-villian just because Swartz crapped himself when he realized how stupid his choices were.
We all know that after he tore down the Berlin Wall with his death-ray eyes the cold war came to a screeching halt and the entire world was saved by the infinite awesomeness of the free market!
I can't buy a physical music CD that is more than 3 months old in any physical store any more. Even at that, if the CD isn't top40 it is highly unlikely I can find it anywhere. We used to have used music stores all over the place too, and they are all but extinct. Now the best music selection in town is... at a book store, where their music area is less than the size of my kitchen.
I'd say streaming and digital sales have already won.
Well, except for that 64-bit processor that was 2 years ahead of everyone else's
You mean the Intel Xeon? How was their Intel Xeon in any way special when compared to anyone else's Intel Xeon? Or do you mean the Intel i7, which was also the same i7 that was available to everyone else?
Or the fingerprint sensor that works quite a lot better than any current competing models
And how many have you tried? Every iPhone user I know regards the fingerprint sensor as a nice "gee-whiz" addon but not anything important.
Or the custom timing controller they built so they could release a 5k iMac for the same price that Dell is selling (a not-yet-available) a 5k monitor.
It's rather silly to compare an extant product to one you insist does not exist. More useful would be to note that the 5k iMac is a product with nearly no market and nearly no sales. In fact it is one of the only non-touchscreen all-in-one units on the market today.
Or the rather cleverly designed Mac Pro.
Clever in what way? We've seen cleverly designed workstations before that at least used novel hardware. Intel CPUs and GPUs in a fancy box are still Intel CPUs and GPUs.
I think between the longevity of their products and the high quality of the releases at the start of the generation, there's much less of a penalty to being an early Apple adopter than there ever was
I encourage you to think about that in more depth. Apple tends to push arguably the shortest generation time of any hardware vendor today. My non-apple laptop is 7 years old and runs fine. I don't know anyone who is currently using an apple laptop that is more than 3 years old, and it isn't because they did anything incredible hardware or software-wise in the past 3 years. Similarly their workstations - which you can't buy for less than $2,500 - also are designed to be replaced completely in bewilderingly short time spans.
Apple's hardware today is amazing â" it has never been better.
From my perspective the overwhelming majority of Apple hardware is no better than what I can buy from my local retailer, unless you're talking about the iPhone in which case it is no better than what i can get in a phone from Samsung. I would say Apple had much better hardware ~10 years ago when they were still using the PowerPC G5 CPUs (and were the largest volume seller of RISC PCs in the world).
I would pay Apple for a license for their OS to run on a PC. I would not pay Apple for the hardware they want to force me to buy to run their OS.
... set up an automatic backup system for all your systems, now. Every system on your network should back itself up automatically daily, not only for this possibility but for all of the platform-agnostic ones such as hardware failure. If her system did nightly backups the criminals wold only have a few hours worth of files and she could have almost certainly safely told them to go fuck themselves.
Hopefully the CTO is aspiring to get the white house off of floppy disks for a solid reason beyond just the age of the technology. There is likely a good reason why floppies are still being used and that needs to be taken into mind when trying to replace them with newer technology. After all, we saw an article not that long ago that the nuclear missile sites in the US still use 8 inch floppies, but there is no solid reason to get them away from that.
I believe he has funded various efforts to bring clean drinking water in deficit areas in Africa.
I am not familiar with that. However, I'm not sure that really fits the "philanthropic" category that this article is concerned with. The article seems to be concerned with cases where rich people are obviously doing things for themselves (such as going to outer space, or to the bottom of the ocean) and then pretending that these things have great philanthropic value to humanity. If Branson funded clean water initiatives in Africa, what was it that he got from it (beyond credit for funding it)?
authorizing targeted sanctions that would deny designated persons access to the U.S. financial system and prohibit U.S. persons from engaging in transactions or dealings with it.
So we have a list of "bad guys" who aren't allowed to do business with US companies. That doesn't seem particularly useful, as they were likely prohibited from doing that before by virtue of the fact that we don't have relations with the DPRK anyways.
Although being as the allegations against DPRK are flimsy at best, making a public statement of existing sanctions and calling them "new" might not be a bad move.
Green Day does not deserve to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. At least, not the Green Day that put out American Idiot - an argument could be made for the Green Day that put out Kerplunk but they haven't been heard from in about 20 yars.
Well, *I* use whale oil, which burns much cleaner and with a warmer flame. But you mainstream types probably wouldn't appreciate it.
I have been hard at work cloning dinosaurs from mosquito DNA so I can raise them and make them into oil myself; the overall experience is vastly superior to your silliness with slaughtering those new-age whales. I'm also manufacturing new vacuum tubes for my unbeatable analog system, but you wouldn't understand how it works so I won't bother telling you, you silly modern sell-out.
No, missuse of a computer system is a criminal offence
Generally, misusing your own computer system is not a criminal offense unless you really go to extremes. If I set my router to ping flood Sony or Microsoft all day long that generally is not a criminal offense. Previously it was said that this "Lizard Squad" attack was done by a group of people, until we have an idea of how many people were in said "squad" it will be really hard to say whether or not any one person had a meaningful role individually.
And yes, there was effectively destruction of property, and you heard of it.
Either we have heard of different outcomes of the DDoS, or we disagree in the meaning of "effectively". There was business lost, but I am not aware of any property that was destroyed which belonged to Microsoft or Sony.
Slashdot Mirror
You can get an ASUS X205 with Windows 8.1 preinstalled for about $200 shipped
When I search for "Asus X205" i find only laptops. We're not really in the same class, here; there are times when a small form factor desktop is distinctly advantageous for the application.
That said it's not three times smaller, it's three times less volume.
Yeah, but the former is catchier for advertising than the latter. :)
not much bigger than a Raspberry Pi B+, which let's be honest, isn't game-changing at this point
Have you seen a PC in the past 5 years that would honestly count as "game-changing"? Neither have I. Everything is an iterative step now.
My youngests computer died, and I ended up replacing it with a Biostar A68N-5000. It was $70 shipped. It is fanless and draws very little power. I imagine this is just a further iteration of the technology.
That is only a motherboard, though. You still need a case - and the mini ITX cases generally come without power supplies. You could likely get this with case and power supply for under $200 but not by a lot. A nice recommendation either way, though.
These guys are claiming barebones PCs will start at $129. I find this a relief in comparison to the companies that keep offering barebones rigs like these starting at $400 or more.
The Chevrolet Bolt is uglier than the Toyota Prius (which is a feat) and most likely front wheel drive. The Tesla is a very nice looking car and rear wheel drive (with options now for all-wheel drive). In other words, the Chevy looks awful and won't be fun to drive. The Tesla looks great and is a lot of fun to drive. Even for GM this is a pretty half-assed attempt.
I just got a comment from slashdot telling me that you foe'd me. Care to tell me why? I couldn't easily find any discussions we were both present in (prior to this one with my asking you this question).
My first is in college right now, and we are paying just about $600/semester (Plus books) for full time at the local community college. She can go there two years then head to the 4 year state school where the costs is something like $5k/semester plus books.
Community colleges are great, but a lot of people fall into traps that sound like what you are describing. In >>99% of all cases, a 2-year degree from a community college does not knock off anywhere near 2 years from a 4-year bachelor's degree. Generally that 2-year degree knocks off one year and maybe a couple miscellaneous lib-ed requirements. Yeah, it saves you some money but it costs you some time. You could have gone straight into a 4-year program and - assuming you knew what you wanted to major in (which a lot of kids do not) - graduated in 4 years. Instead you started off at community and now your 4-year degree is taking you a total of 5+ years.
Now, those 5 years might actually be a really good investment. For a lot of kids it certainly is - a lot of kids finish high school without any real ability to adapt to college. Nonetheless it does not lead to the dramatic money savings that many people (or more so, many people's parents) hope for.
It never ceases to amaze me when people get 70K into debt going to a 4 year school getting a secondary education degree or something, where the starting annual pay is half their debt load.
This varies a lot from one state to another but a lot of states now require a master's to teach at primary or secondary level. $70K is actually doing quite well for student loans for a bachelors and a masters. Most physicians - who have generally done only 8 years of school (2 years more than a teacher) - are well into six figures of debt by the time they start a residency.
As for the relation between debt load and salary, I would say that your observation says more about how little we pay our teachers than anything.
On this occasion, I did do a poor job of checking my typing before hitting submit, there are some typos in that message that are definitely my fault. However, in what way is it my fault that text rendered by this site does not get accepted properly back in to the text input boxes on this site?
More to the point, "overrated" is a cowardly mod. The person who used it on my comment almost certainly disagreed with what I was saying, rather than how it was entered and was too much of a coward to actually talk about it.
whipped themselves into a frenzy
. That was quickly followed by a classic editing fail:
major international meeting to tackle geoengineering. Itâ(TM)s most commonly called geoengineering
The final statement with the cheesy summary of ethics:
the scientists wanted to agree on a code of ethicsâ"how to move forward without alarming the public or breaking any laws.
Well summarized whose side of the conspiracy theory Samzenpus is on.
Although considering the overwhelming conservative vocal majority here on slashdot, it really doesn't surprise me at all that this crap made the front page. If you can't disprove the science, why not attack the scientists themselves, right? Make them look as crooked and juvenile as possible so nobody will want to have anything to do with them? Maybe we can swift boat them while we're at it.
(yeah, I know I will be moderated down into oblivion for this. but we all know there is no "-1 disagree" moderation so they'll have to use "flamebait" or "overrated" as a substitute. that doesn't chance the fact - as much as they would want it to)
If you are going to do the civil disobedience, you have to be prepared to accept the consequences.
What he did was arguably well beyond civil disobedience. If his only cause was "liberation" of the information (or whatever other term his worshipers are favoring this week) he could have done it all from his desk and it would have taken just a little more time. That still would have been civil disobedience. Instead he forced his way in to a closet that he was not supposed to have access to, and took up so much bandwidth as to hinder the ability of other researchers to do their work. This was beyond civil disobedience.
Killing yourself and then having the "information must be free" crowd whine about it later isn't civil disobedience.
Correct. He knowingly and willingly broke the law and then took the coward's way out. This crowd shouldn't be supporting him; they should be throwing him under the bus for making those with legitimate gripes against the system look like hacks. He did not advance the discussion in any meaningful way.
You're creating a false dichotomy where either Swartz was a hero or Ortiz is a hero. In fact, neither is a terribly respectable character.
I'm not saying she's a hero, either. I'm saying Swartz was an idiot and the people who worship him as a martyr view everyone who doesn't worship him as a villain.
The issue with Ortiz's prosecution was that she offered him a plea deal of 6 months with the alternative of prosecuting him with charges that would carry up to 50 years in jail and $1,000,000 in fines. If she thought the crime was worth 6 months in jail then she should have simply prosecuted it as such (and frankly should be forced to prosecute it as such since she obviously can't be trusted with any discretion).
IANAL but my understanding of the legal system is that is how plea bargains usually work; the accused can plead guilty to lesser charges for lesser sentences than what the prosecution believes they have evidence to prosecute under. To go to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum I have never heard of someone who was charged with a capital offense taking a capital charge as a plea bargain; rather they would plea down to life without parole. Now, the difference between 50 years and 6 months is of course enormous for sure but from my understanding plea bargains basically always offer a reduced sentence in comparison to what the prosecution believes they can get in a trial.
She's scum. That doesn't mean that Swartz is some kind of hero.
My point here though is that the case never made it to court. In fact it really was quite a ways from making it to trial. This makes it basically impossible to tell what she (or her office) would have presented in the trial that never happened. Calling her an evil person based on a trial that never happened is not exactly well connected to reality.
But what I don't get is the idea that there needs to be a high threshold for replacing people in positions of power
The case never went to court, it was only beginning to take shape when Swartz took the easy way out in hopes of making himself into some sort of twisted martyr. We will never be able to say whether or not Ortiz would have done a good job as a prosecutor or not as the case never went through. I'm not saying we need impossibly high standards for removing someone from their job, I'm merely saying we can't say whether or not she did a good job prosecuting this case as it never reached any kind of trial or verdict.
Swartz was an idiot, not a hero. Stop making him a religious idol. Has anyone criticized Carmen Ortiz for the prosecution that her office led on Whitey Bulger or Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?
No, they have not. This petition isn't about Carmen Ortiz, it is about more people trying to make a hero out of a fool. Carmen Ortiz worked hard to get to where she is, don't paint her as a super-villian just because Swartz crapped himself when he realized how stupid his choices were.
We all know that after he tore down the Berlin Wall with his death-ray eyes the cold war came to a screeching halt and the entire world was saved by the infinite awesomeness of the free market!
EPCOT has a British phone booth but no Police Box. They could really use it. Looks like Parrish is ~111 miles from Orlando.
I can't buy a physical music CD that is more than 3 months old in any physical store any more. Even at that, if the CD isn't top40 it is highly unlikely I can find it anywhere. We used to have used music stores all over the place too, and they are all but extinct. Now the best music selection in town is ... at a book store, where their music area is less than the size of my kitchen.
I'd say streaming and digital sales have already won.
Well, except for that 64-bit processor that was 2 years ahead of everyone else's
You mean the Intel Xeon? How was their Intel Xeon in any way special when compared to anyone else's Intel Xeon? Or do you mean the Intel i7, which was also the same i7 that was available to everyone else?
Or the fingerprint sensor that works quite a lot better than any current competing models
And how many have you tried? Every iPhone user I know regards the fingerprint sensor as a nice "gee-whiz" addon but not anything important.
Or the custom timing controller they built so they could release a 5k iMac for the same price that Dell is selling (a not-yet-available) a 5k monitor.
It's rather silly to compare an extant product to one you insist does not exist. More useful would be to note that the 5k iMac is a product with nearly no market and nearly no sales. In fact it is one of the only non-touchscreen all-in-one units on the market today.
Or the rather cleverly designed Mac Pro.
Clever in what way? We've seen cleverly designed workstations before that at least used novel hardware. Intel CPUs and GPUs in a fancy box are still Intel CPUs and GPUs.
I think between the longevity of their products and the high quality of the releases at the start of the generation, there's much less of a penalty to being an early Apple adopter than there ever was
I encourage you to think about that in more depth. Apple tends to push arguably the shortest generation time of any hardware vendor today. My non-apple laptop is 7 years old and runs fine. I don't know anyone who is currently using an apple laptop that is more than 3 years old, and it isn't because they did anything incredible hardware or software-wise in the past 3 years. Similarly their workstations - which you can't buy for less than $2,500 - also are designed to be replaced completely in bewilderingly short time spans.
Apple's hardware today is amazing â" it has never been better.
From my perspective the overwhelming majority of Apple hardware is no better than what I can buy from my local retailer, unless you're talking about the iPhone in which case it is no better than what i can get in a phone from Samsung. I would say Apple had much better hardware ~10 years ago when they were still using the PowerPC G5 CPUs (and were the largest volume seller of RISC PCs in the world).
I would pay Apple for a license for their OS to run on a PC. I would not pay Apple for the hardware they want to force me to buy to run their OS.
... set up an automatic backup system for all your systems, now. Every system on your network should back itself up automatically daily, not only for this possibility but for all of the platform-agnostic ones such as hardware failure. If her system did nightly backups the criminals wold only have a few hours worth of files and she could have almost certainly safely told them to go fuck themselves.
Hopefully the CTO is aspiring to get the white house off of floppy disks for a solid reason beyond just the age of the technology. There is likely a good reason why floppies are still being used and that needs to be taken into mind when trying to replace them with newer technology. After all, we saw an article not that long ago that the nuclear missile sites in the US still use 8 inch floppies, but there is no solid reason to get them away from that.
I believe he has funded various efforts to bring clean drinking water in deficit areas in Africa.
I am not familiar with that. However, I'm not sure that really fits the "philanthropic" category that this article is concerned with. The article seems to be concerned with cases where rich people are obviously doing things for themselves (such as going to outer space, or to the bottom of the ocean) and then pretending that these things have great philanthropic value to humanity. If Branson funded clean water initiatives in Africa, what was it that he got from it (beyond credit for funding it)?
authorizing targeted sanctions that would deny designated persons access to the U.S. financial system and prohibit U.S. persons from engaging in transactions or dealings with it.
So we have a list of "bad guys" who aren't allowed to do business with US companies. That doesn't seem particularly useful, as they were likely prohibited from doing that before by virtue of the fact that we don't have relations with the DPRK anyways.
Although being as the allegations against DPRK are flimsy at best, making a public statement of existing sanctions and calling them "new" might not be a bad move.
Green Day does not deserve to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. At least, not the Green Day that put out American Idiot - an argument could be made for the Green Day that put out Kerplunk but they haven't been heard from in about 20 yars.
(and some gasoline)
Well, *I* use whale oil, which burns much cleaner and with a warmer flame. But you mainstream types probably wouldn't appreciate it.
I have been hard at work cloning dinosaurs from mosquito DNA so I can raise them and make them into oil myself; the overall experience is vastly superior to your silliness with slaughtering those new-age whales. I'm also manufacturing new vacuum tubes for my unbeatable analog system, but you wouldn't understand how it works so I won't bother telling you, you silly modern sell-out.
Get your head out of your arse and try acting like a grownup if that's at all possible.
Look in the mirror lately, kind sir?
No, missuse of a computer system is a criminal offence
Generally, misusing your own computer system is not a criminal offense unless you really go to extremes. If I set my router to ping flood Sony or Microsoft all day long that generally is not a criminal offense. Previously it was said that this "Lizard Squad" attack was done by a group of people, until we have an idea of how many people were in said "squad" it will be really hard to say whether or not any one person had a meaningful role individually.
And yes, there was effectively destruction of property, and you heard of it.
Either we have heard of different outcomes of the DDoS, or we disagree in the meaning of "effectively". There was business lost, but I am not aware of any property that was destroyed which belonged to Microsoft or Sony.